[HN Gopher] Come back, c2.com, we still need you ___________________________________________________________________ Come back, c2.com, we still need you Author : joshuanapoli Score : 291 points Date : 2023-05-15 14:01 UTC (8 hours ago) (HTM) web link (wiki.c2.com) (TXT) w3m dump (wiki.c2.com) | akritrime wrote: | I thought c2.com was in the middle of a redesign. Is it actually | gone or just a technical glitch? | shagie wrote: | That redesign has been sporadic. | https://github.com/WardCunningham/remodeling/graphs/code-fre... | exabrial wrote: | wow. New site is fucking awful. http://fed.wiki.org | | What an abomination. JavaScript is ruining the internet. | Dwedit wrote: | I just see a blank page. | tempodox wrote: | By now it only says, "page does not exist". :( | aigoochamna wrote: | Using an SPA to reduce server load, when you could generate this | content and use edge caches and have zero server load? | | I'm more upset with the new design choices than the architecture | choice. The old site was ugly in a retro-cool way. The new site | is just ugly. | killerstorm wrote: | Frankly, I don't find it particularly useful - almost everything | is written in such a way that you have to know what the page is | about to be able to understand. It's more like a collection of | links than a wiki proper. | forgetfulness wrote: | It was a wiki that didn't try to separate the content from the | community that created it, so it was more like a forum where | people could more or less agree on how to summarize a thread. | kragen wrote: | this is literally the site that the word 'wiki' was invented to | describe; it is the embodiment of the platonic essence of 'a | wiki proper' | shadowgovt wrote: | ... or the alpha version that subsequent experiments with the | idea improved upon. | kragen wrote: | some other wikis are certainly quite wonderful | ajmurmann wrote: | In a way it's like most pages in corporate wikis I've | encountered. Of course the topics and content here is light- | years better. | dexen wrote: | The C2 wiki was re-written and re-implemented as single page app, | currently at http://fed.wiki.org/ | | It is an interesting change, to a more federated style. | | I ended up doing a small project inspired by this change, at | https://github.com/dexen/tlb | ricardobeat wrote: | Complete with unnecessary page transitions, cascading loaders | and a ton of layout shifting. Classic SPA success story. | bongobingo1 wrote: | I don't 100% disagree with the sentiment, but I think in this | case the push-in style transitions fit well with a knowledge | base wiki in which you (or at least, I) often drill down and | pop out of topics. | | Though... that particular implementation seems to not handle | unwinding the stack very well. And as the classic web2 adage | goes, if you think your animation is "just right", knock | another 3rd off it at least. | mananaysiempre wrote: | IMO TiddlyWiki[1] is a much better implementation of this | UI idea of bite-sized, heavily linked text (card catalog?) | with multiple simultaneously visible entries. (No | federation and a bizarre storage approach though.) | | [1] https://tiddlywiki.com/ (haven't looked at the homepage | in years, the current one seems kind of awful and not | really bite-sized unfortunately). | imachine1980_ wrote: | holly cow this redisign is awfull, im not against federated | content, but this inst a wiki at all | fsckboy wrote: | > _It is an interesting change, to a more federated style._ | | what does "federated" mean in this context? do you mean | decentralized segmented "peer to peer" storage, or something? | | unfederated wikipedia is not helpful in defining federated: | | _Federated content is digital media content that is designed | to be self-managing to support reporting and rights management | in a peer-to-peer (P2P) network. Ex: Audio stored in a digital | rights management (DRM) file format._ | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federated_content | mananaysiempre wrote: | That's certainly.... a definition of a thing. That I haven't | seen once in my life. In any case, the relevant page is https | ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_(information_techno... . | | The idea is essentially to follow the way email (and partly | the Web) works: users aren't tied to one server | (centralized), but neither are they required to each run | their own one (peer-to-peer), instead there's a narrower | group of server operators who host users, but those users can | cause the server software to connect to a server it doesn't | know about if they mention it explicitly. | | Of course, if the protocol is too weak in allowing the | operator to control those connections (in either direction), | it will evolve informal means for that which will make all | but the largest servers extremely unreliable, much as email | did. On the other hand, the experience of Mastodon shows the | dangers of operators exercising too much control (where e.g. | Mozilla seems eager to defederate with any server that has | anyone post anything even slightly offensive or objectionable | to anybody whose opinion Mozilla considers valid). | | The federated _wiki_ idea as promoted by Ward seems to be to | have the federation (network of servers) be able to browse | each other's pages--so far so Web--but then to allow each | user to clone and edit any page anywhere, storing the clone | on their own server. The original page isn't affected, except | I think there's a provision for some sort of backlinking | (referral spam? what's that?). It doesn't sound unreasonable, | but I'm not sure it can support anything interesting either-- | for a large pool of collaborators you'd need a Torvalds-like | full-time merge BDFL, and I haven't even seen a discussion of | pull requests or anything similar. | Zanfa wrote: | This is completely broken and unusable on latest iOS Safari. | manojlds wrote: | Works bad on mobile with some weird transitions. Can't believe | C2 is fallen to this trap as well. | WesolyKubeczek wrote: | But all the old content seems to be gone (or all links to it | are broken) | insulanus wrote: | Sadly, I've had bad experiences with some Single Page Apps. | Here are some problems I've had: | | Linking to a specific topic. | | Archiving the site. | SpaghettiCthulu wrote: | Also routing breaking if you trigger back/forward too fast | (looking at you, GitHub) | gtirloni wrote: | _> The C2 wiki was re-written and re-implemented as single page | app, currently at http://fed.wiki.org/_ | | It seems empty. Or am I not grasping what this is? | jacobsenscott wrote: | I don't believe C2 was moved here. The Federated wiki seems | to be Ward Cunningham's experiment - an answer to centralized | wikis - also invited by Ward. It is interesting, but as far | as I can tell not some kind of mirror of the content on C2. | If you click "recent changes" a lot of stuff comes up, mostly | about federated wiki. | ilyt wrote: | ...that is fucking terrible. | | Do they not know back button and tabs exist in browsers ? | forgetfreeman wrote: | If you find inspiration in converting a raft of long-term | usable URLs into a single page usability clusterfuck one | questions your motives and your craft. | pcunning wrote: | I fixed it (rebooted the server). | | Anecdotes: Ward (My dad) and I recently moved c2 off a server in | a colo where it had lived for over a decade because the colo was | closing. Now it lives in a cloud provider. It will live on. | Eventually I envision It will get moved like the Agile Manifesto | to a static site for long lived prosperity as a relic of the | early internet. | javcasas wrote: | Can I suggest making it a torrent? Good Internet relics deserve | to live duplicated in random computers all over the place, just | like the Internet itself. | joshuanapoli wrote: | Thank you; I'm glad that you're keeping c2 online. | wahnfrieden wrote: | Make sure it gets archived by an archive team not just hosted | thanks | pcunning wrote: | Recommendation of who to work with? | davikr wrote: | Archive Team, #archiveteam on the hackint irc. | monkpit wrote: | I am consistently shocked that anyone ever found c2 insightful or | helpful. Maybe it's one of those things that was better in ye | olden days. | | Every c2 link I have ever followed was just an incoherent blob of | text arguing with itself. | | The TvTropes of the programming community, and just as much of a | waste of time too. | remexre wrote: | It's useful as a survey of (perhaps somewhat old) opinions | about a topic; it's pretty useful as a collection of pros/cons, | and imo interesting for its historical context besides. | Bjartr wrote: | > an incoherent blob of text arguing with itself. | | That's exactly why I find it valuable. Little to no pretense of | looking good and a bunch of perspectives in little space. An | occasionally useful starting point to get the lay of the land. | bombcar wrote: | It's also almost perfectly what any long-running or stickied | thread on any forum ever was, and that was usually a good | thing. | omoikane wrote: | > The TvTropes of the programming community | | Not sure what you were expecting, but that was very much what | some of us were looking for. | q845712 wrote: | > an incoherent blob of text arguing with itself. | | Kinda like HackerNews but from before someone invented modern | threading and quoting, yeah? | thagsimmons wrote: | C2 was an incredible place at its peak - I was lucky to have | started my career while the community was still (only just) | functional. Looking back, it's hard to over-state how formative | my time on C2 was - not only did I learn a lot about pattern | languages, and coding, but the Wiki idea and the way the | community operated is something I still think about today. | | C2 was a utopian vision of well-informed, kind, co-operative | people working together in a radically open and egalitarian way. | And it really did work, for a while. Unfortunately, the reasons | why C2 ultimately died have been obscured by a well-meaning | process of pruning that I think is meant to remove the "bad | stuff" and leave only the "good stuff" for posterity. This is a | shame, because the truth really is instructive - a few very | prolific, toxic, borderline delusional people started dominating | the wiki to the extent that more reasonable contributors just | moved on. The C2 community started with an assumption that | everyone could be reasoned with, and tried to handle the | situation kindly and rationally. It was amazing to see the damage | a very small number of people - basically just two - could do to | a whole community of hundreds of well-meaning but naive people. | It got to the point where there were pages dedicated to trying to | think about the problems these people posed, with endless | discussions about the paradox of tolerance and handling things | through openness and kindness, and small factions arguing for | permanent bans. Ultimately I think both badd actors _were_ | banned, but by then it was too late - all the air was sucked out | of the community. Watching the death of C2 unfold really darkened | my view about the prospects of truly open societies, and deeply | informed work that I've done on building communities since. | | Today, nearly all signs of the way this devastation played out | have been erased from history. If you search for the names of the | malignant characters there are a few mentions here and there, but | there's no way to piece together the true sequence of events. I | think an important part of C2's story, and one that is more | relevant today than ever, has been lost as a consequence. I'm | sure Ward has the full edit history of the wiki around, and I | think he should publish it, complete and unvarnished, so we can | study it and learn from it. | kalium-xyz wrote: | I love c2 its wiki and would be very sad to see it gone. Im | certain I can find some archives but this still feels like a | loss. | shagie wrote: | (I've mentioned this on another thread here) | | Here's a copy of the entirety of C2 from | https://archive.org/details/c2.com-wiki_201501 | | And an implementation of a server to run it (search indexing | and such) https://github.com/adamnew123456/wiki-server | psnehanshu wrote: | Why do you love c2? If I may ask. | kalium-xyz wrote: | Doing searches on google has ended me up on it so many times | I ended up bookmarking it and searching it instead. | shagie wrote: | It is a frozen discussion from some of the people who we now | hold in fairly high regard on a number of topics that are | fairly core to software development. | | It is like being able to go back and be a fly on the wall in | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohr-Einstein_debates# for | physics (one can debate about the degree of significance of | the topics and individuals - but I'm trying to get back a | "this is where things where happening at the time.") | | As an aside, there was a community-fork of c2 where part of | the community was more interested in communities rather than | code. That site is still available - | http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/ ( | http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/MeatballBackgrounder ) which has | a lot of the same charm as c2. | | The thing with other great debates - there aren't any | transcripts of them. C2 is the best that we have of the early | "trying to figure out is now called agile". | knome wrote: | the portland pattern repository was an invaluable resource for | me when I was searching out programming material on the web in | the early 2000s. hopefully whatever this is is just a hiccup in | their service | tolciho wrote: | [flagged] | InvisibleUp wrote: | There was a mirror at https://kidneybone.com/c2/wiki/ without the | SPA stuff, but that seems to be 503'd right now. (And even if it | wasn't, I don't think it has a root page; you'd need to type in | one of the page URLs manually.) | adamnew123456 wrote: | Huh, my other pages don't have the same issue. I guess the | search indexer must've died - I'll restart it in an hour or | two. | | FWIW, the snapshot of c2 that this runs off of is somewhat | dated (https://archive.org/details/c2.com-wiki_201501), so the | last ~7 years of updates after the move to the federated wiki | aren't present. | | Does anyone know where these original pages ended up in fedwiki | after the migration? | InvisibleUp wrote: | Oh, it works now. Thanks! | | For those reading the comments here, | https://kidneybone.com/c2/wiki/CategoryCategory is a great | place to start browsing. | shagie wrote: | The instructions for spinning up a read only mirror: | https://github.com/adamnew123456/wiki-server and in | particular the C2 archive from | https://archive.org/details/c2.com-wiki_201501 | waynecochran wrote: | This is what I get page does not exist | gjvc wrote: | I expect it's being replaced by http://fed.wiki.org/view/welcome- | visitors/view/about-federat... | kevinmgranger wrote: | Ooh, is that tiddlywiki, or at least inspired by it? | gjvc wrote: | Not tiddlywiki, but instead a complete reworking of the | original Wiki, work done by Ward Cunningham himself. | anononaut wrote: | It occurs to me again that I need to figure out how entire | websites can be downloaded and archived. Like Archive.org, but | local. | danparsonson wrote: | https://www.httrack.com/ is a good option | mesarvagya wrote: | Most of SPA websites today cannot be downloaded through | httrack. | danparsonson wrote: | Yes SPAs will be next to impossible for a tool like this; | I'm not sure how any tool could archive such a site tbh? | _a9 wrote: | I use browsertrix-crawler[0] for crawling and it does | well on JS heavy sites since it uses a real browser to | request pages. Even has options to load browser profiles | so you can crawl while being authenticated on sites. | | [0] https://github.com/webrecorder/browsertrix-crawler | shagie wrote: | The entirety of the archive pre rework can be found at | https://archive.org/details/c2.com-wiki_201501 | psychoslave wrote: | https://bash-prompt.net/guides/wget-mirror-website/ | bhouston wrote: | https://web.archive.org/web/20230510153013/https://c2.com/ | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Cunningham | gpderetta wrote: | The copy of the wiki on webarchive doesn't seem to work for me. | | The C2 wiki is on of the foundational relics of the old web | that need to be preserved for the future. | Jtsummers wrote: | https://web.archive.org/web/20170430022841/http://wiki.c2.co. | .. | | I picked an arbitrary older date and it seems to be working | for me (pre-redesign). | layer8 wrote: | What you're linking to is already the "new" JS version. See | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35951027 for the last | static version. | [deleted] | psnehanshu wrote: | In the source: <noscript> <center> | <b>notice</b> <p>javascript required to view this | site</p> <b>why</b> <p>measured improvement | in server performance</p> <p>awesome incremental | search</p> </center> </noscript> | insulanus wrote: | It would be great if there was a read-only version of the site | that can be crawled. | | Much easier to do that supporting both HTTP and JS for both | read and write. | tempodox wrote: | Indeed, that was a relatively recent change that I never | understood. It had been working without JS for a long time | before that. And page loads became slower, not faster, for me. | masklinn wrote: | > And page loads became slower, not faster, for me. | | They're not exclusive, smaller server loads doesn't mean the | experience is better for the client. | | For instance the server might just stop doing server-side | template rendering. Instead it sends one static page, then | the client requests and render the JSON for the article, or | maybe the page only contains the JSON for the article instead | of the rendered one. | | Then the template rendering cost stops showing up on the | server, because it's not performed on the client, and | serialising to JSON is almost certainly cheaper than | rendering an ad-hoc and half-assed template format. | | But now the client has to perform a bunch of extra requests | (to fetch the javascript and possibly the json) and it pays | the cost for the template rendering, and that might be even | halfer-assed, and more expensive, because it's out of sight | of the server loads / logs. | | The result is that the server has gone from, say, 80ms CPU to | 40ms CPU per page (which definitely qualifies as a "measured | improvement in server performance"), but the client now needs | an additional 300ms to reach loading completion. | blowski wrote: | Good description. And the site owner may have decided that | trade-off works well for them - they are not incompetent or | evil just because a few niche but noisy users have a moan. | masklinn wrote: | At the same time, the users are rightfully complaining, | their experience has been made noticeably worse in | multiple ways to no benefit. Worse, they essentially get | taunted. | samtheprogram wrote: | > the users are rightfully complaining [because] their | experience has been made noticeably worse in multiple | ways to no benefit | | Depends on your definition of rightfully. This is a ad- | free, cost-free website. If they want to reduce server | load or prioritize something other than non-JS | experience, it's their prerogative. | | Especially when the complaint is "it's slower on my | client" and not "I can no longer access the data without | JavaScript" | | > Worse, they essentially get taunted. | | Please explain? | skrebbel wrote: | Sometimes I feel like all 7 people who have JS disabled have an | HN account so they can tell people that their site doesn't work | with JS disabled | lynx23 wrote: | It just violates the KISS principle too much when the site in | question is mostly presenting documents. I can see JS being | useful if you have some sort of SPA app. But essentially docs | with JS are a total no-go. Why do I need to fire up a 50MB | binary to read a simple document again? Ahh, because reasons, | I see... | chefandy wrote: | Whether or not something is 'simple' depends on what type | of simplicity you're optimizing for and your use | case/requirements. Front-end js frameworks could make | development much simpler than relying on vanilla code or | back-end frameworks to accomplish the same tasks. | Personally, I don't see the benefit of defining simplicity | by how much work the browser has to do unless there's a | specific, tangible requirement that demands it. | | Accessibility isn't any more of a problem than it is with | HTML. For screen readers, et al it's still something that | needs to be deliberately incorporated into the document | structure, and modern frameworks are more than capable of | handling it. What about older browsers with crappy JS | implementations? Front-end frameworks have tools designed | to extend support to much older browsers with limited JS | support. The percentage of people who have access to a web | browser but _can 't_ use javascript applications is | vanishingly small. When I've worked with people making | publicly-funded tools for which accessibility must | accommodate people with very limited technical means-- | unhoused people, for example-- developers tend to skip the | web interface altogether and go with SMS combined with | telephone or in-person service. JS is not the barrier. | | Obviously that 50MB binary is hyperbole, but the baseline | Vue include is 16k. It's certainly easier to make make | front-end JS heavy and unreliable than plain static HTML, | but it's pretty easy to avoid it, and design that poor | would probably fuck up plain-old HTML and CSS just as bad. | The fact is that most users do appreciate the dynamic | features and responsiveness that is only possible with js. | If you don't, and want to exclude yourself from modern web | functionality, then be my guest. I think it's pretty | strange that you'd expect other people to go out of their | way to accommodate your rather uncommon preferences to make | an experience most users consider worse and doesn't work | towards satisfying any tangible business needs. | lynx23 wrote: | I know this discussion is lost and the times have | changed. However, two things I cant let stand: Using | semantic HTML tags is _all_ you need for proper | accessibility of text documents. Calling that out as | being specia attention for accessibility is false in my | opinion. And yes, you just found one of these very rare | people. I still spend 99% of my work day in tmux on a | plain text console. I can, of course, fire up Firefox on | a second machine I have next to me for just these | problems, but it breaks my workflow not being able to | read a text document with a text browser. Dont even | bother telling me that this use case is no longer | supported. I know that. That doesn 't change my technical | opinion that JS is way too much of a gun for documents. | chefandy wrote: | > Calling that out as being specia attention for | accessibility is false in my opinion. | | I didn't. I said that accessibility is no more of a | problem for js-fueled pages than HTML pages, which was | not always true. | | > Dont even bother telling me that this use case is no | longer supported | | Then don't say people are making websites wrong when by | common practice you're using the wrong tools to interact | with them. | | > I know that. That doesn't change my technical opinion | that JS is way too much of a gun for documents. | | Like I said, feel free to opt out of the modern internet. | It's your life. It's just flatly absurd to be in your | position and accuse developers of having poor practices | when they provide an objectively _better experience_ for | probably 9999 out of 10000 other users by using widely | accepted, standard, reliable practices that often require | less development time. | lynx23 wrote: | I am blind. I do rely on accessibility to interact with a | computer. Yes, you could accuse me of deliberately | avoiding the modern web, but I have my reasons. Primary | reason is performance. Even though I feel like you are | talking down to me from a pretty high horse, I still | don't wish for you to ever experience how sluggish it | feels trying to use the "modern web" with a screen reader | on something like Windows. Don't even make me start about | the hellhole that is Linux GUI accessibility. It was a | nice ride once, before GNOME 3 and the elimination of | CORBA killed most of the good work done by good people. | Fact is, I am too used to a system which reacts promptly | when I press a key to be able to switch to a modern | browser by default. That would kill all my productivity. | Yes, its a trade, but for now, having no JS engine by | default is still _way_ better then the alternatives. | | Have a nice day, and enjoy your eye-sight. | Zanfa wrote: | There's no reason to think SPAs are in any way | objectively better in terms of either UX or DX. | | I can't count the number of SPAs that manage to break | basic browser functionality like links, back/forward | navigation and scrolling. It's insane. | lynx23 wrote: | Well, there is obviously a conflict in UI experience. I | can very well see how back/forward breaks the idea of a | web "app", because what would backward mean in a | classical app, except for maybe undo? I tend to put web | addresses in roughly these two categories: those that try | to be an app, and those which just present a document. | True, inline editing may blur the line, but thats how I | try to see it. IOW, I am not mad at someone killing my | back/forward buttons if these just dont make any sense in | the context of the app they are providing. OTOH, I am | pretty pissed if someone steps outside of classic HTML if | all they are doing is basically prviding text/images. | Zanfa wrote: | Sure, if you're building Figma, SPA all the way. If it's | a dashboard or a semi-static document, SPAs are misused | and that's when basic functionality gets replaced with | JS, but typically in a broken fashion. | Kerrick wrote: | Have you tried https://www.brow.sh to preserve your | workflow? | xigoi wrote: | When you want to display a document, using a document | format is clearly simpler than using a programming | language. | postalrat wrote: | Makes sense if they don't need JavaScript for hn. | kevincrane wrote: | [flagged] | __s wrote: | uBlock Origin allows disabling JS by default, I use on my | phone to preserve battery life | aftbit wrote: | There are dozens of us! Dozens! | | I mostly browse sites with JS disabled (with lots of | exceptions of course) to get rid of those awful Euro cookie | banners. Are those required in US now for some reason? My | browser doesn't save the cookie that says they can save | cookies, so they constantly prompt me. | sneak wrote: | There are actually 8 of us, not counting Ed Snowden, who once | famously explained to Bart Gellman: "turn off the fucking | scripts". | | Almost all modern browser compromise is via JS. | layer8 wrote: | Here is one of the last snapshots before the C2 wiki was replaced | by the awful JS version: | https://web.archive.org/web/2014/http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?Welc... | | I'm linking to a bit earlier in time because on _web.archive.org_ | every hyperlink takes you a bit further to the future, eventually | (sometime in 2016) ending up on a redirect to the JS version. | | Edit: Here is a mirror that is now functional again: | https://kidneybone.com/c2/wiki/WelcomeVisitors. In particular, it | has a working search page: | https://kidneybone.com/c2/wiki/FindPage | | See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35952055 if you want to | create your own mirror. | lloydatkinson wrote: | What happened? | LordShredda wrote: | The web happened | TheRealPomax wrote: | Never having heard of this site: what is/was it? | Scarblac wrote: | Among other things, the home of the first Wiki, where people | talked about software design and development since the 90s. | Lammy wrote: | Check out the HN submissions from this domain: | https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=c2.com | joshuanapoli wrote: | It's the original wiki, by Ward Cunningham. It has a lot of | interesting discussions about software topics. I noticed the | site was down because it has a page about the "Cobol Fallacy": | that it is a misconception that software would be easier to | create in natural language. I wanted to see how the (old) | discussion on the topic compares with the present LLM | mania/break-through. | jwilk wrote: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiWikiWeb | mistrial9 wrote: | software development wisdom from a time before cookie-cutters | rileyphone wrote: | the original wiki | oniony wrote: | There are people saying it was the original wiki, but let me | spell out what that actually means. | | Before the C2 WikiWikiWeb, few web sites had experimented with | making it possible for its users to alter the site's contents. | Granted, there were many sites with messaging forums you could | post to, and there were places where you could add review or | contribute new content entries, but not anything I can remember | where you could edit the fabric of the site itself. Sites back | then were 'published' by someone who owned them, and any | contributions would go through a moderation process before they | would be accepted and published, so there was no immediacy to | such edits. | | The C2 wiki wiki web allowed any user to immediately make an | edit or create a new page, and it the site relied upon its | persistent history to roll back changes that the community | deemed destructive. I remember feeling quite excited by the | concept because it was so alien at the time -- that someone was | willing to allow anonymous users to put stuff on a site they | were ultimately publishing. | | The C2 WikiWikiWeb experiment is what ultimately lead to the | creation of Wikipedia: an encyclopaedia that could be edited by | the end users, hence the name. (In turn, the WikiWikiWeb was | named from the Hawaiian word 'wikiwiki' meaning 'quick', which | alluded to the lack of any moderation steps in its edits.) | cbm-vic-20 wrote: | Everything2 was another example of a user-driven site that | allowed linking between pages. It's actually still alive | today: | | https://everything2.com/title/Y+combinator | twic wrote: | h2g2.com is a another user-edited encyclopedia site which | is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike e2. It launched | about a year after e2, and about two years before | wikipedia. | shagie wrote: | There's a whole family of sites based on the same codebase | of everything2 (which was a cousin of the /. codebase). | | https://everything2.com/title/Everything+Engine | | Aside from E2, it is likely that PerlMonks is the other | still active site - https://www.perlmonks.org ( | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PerlMonks ) | | The others seem to have fallen into disrepair if they are | still up at all. | msie wrote: | I don't like the pop-up page ui. | qingcharles wrote: | That's weird. I spent some time going through the wiki last | night. I was actually trying to find the original source for | WikiWikiWeb, but I couldn't find a download anywhere. | amiga386 wrote: | Cool URLs don't change. | | https://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI | | If you simply must redesign a site, make sure all the existing | URLs still work and take someone visiting to the same equivalent | in your new site. | | If you're going to drop a site before its redesign is ready... | _what the hell are you doing?_ | PcChip wrote: | >If you simply must redesign a site, make sure all the existing | URLs still work and take someone visiting to the same | equivalent in your new site. | | looking at you, vmware | no_identd wrote: | Personally I consider what The Cybernetics Society pulled | with regards to their new homepage / the botched (in numerous | ways) move of their old homepage to | https://archive.cybsoc.org/ far more atrocious, because with | Microsoft and VMware it feels less tragic | sph wrote: | Shameless plug. I'm working on a service to solve this very | problem. I hate 404s, they're so frequent even my mum knows | what a 404 Page Not Found error is. | | Right now I'm focusing on simple, automated link checking in a | closed free alpha with a few users, but the killer feature I | want to implement by the end of this month is notifying users | if they redesign their website and forget to set redirects to | old content. [1] | | I would love to have more alpha testers, and the plan is to | make it available for free to open-source projects and | documentation sites, like c2.com. If you join the waitlist, | I'll let you straight in. | | https://bernard.app | | -- | | 1: I am redoing my personal website, trying different static | generators, and I cringe at the thought that I am completely | unaware if I break someone's bookmarks, or the RSS feed URL | changes and I lose the couple followers I have. Bernard exists | first and foremost to solve this problem _for me_ , and I hope | it might be useful to others that care about this issue. | kevinmgranger wrote: | Is this a deliberate shutdown or just an outage? | marttt wrote: | I'm pretty sure I browsed the java version last week, or maybe | even just 2-3 days ago. | | Links to the JSON-formatted pages (thanks, fellow HNers!) don't | seem to work either: | | https://c2.com/wiki/remodel/pages/EgolessProgramming | | https://proxy.c2.com/wiki/remodel/pages/ | | I really love(..d?) the "stream of consciousness" nature of the | c2 discussions. It is easily among the greatest intellectual | rabbit holes of oldschool internet. The extremely minimal, kind | of robust formatting probably also contributed to why it was such | a compelling read at times. Content over form, for sure. | Kelamir wrote: | From the source: <center> <b>notice</b> | <p>javascript required to view this site</p> <b>why</b> | <p>measured improvement in server performance</p> | <p>awesome incremental search</p> </center> | | It does load faster now that it doesn't display anything. | [deleted] ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-05-15 23:00 UTC)