[HN Gopher] FBI Misused Spy Database, FISA Court Says ___________________________________________________________________ FBI Misused Spy Database, FISA Court Says Author : impish9208 Score : 296 points Date : 2023-05-20 12:56 UTC (10 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.wsj.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.wsj.com) | NecroTechno wrote: | acab | boomboomsubban wrote: | >Senior national security officials said Friday that all of the | incidents described took place before the FBI had completed a | series of internal reforms--including written justifications for | searches, more oversight and requiring analysts to actively opt | into searching the foreign intelligence database. | | "Written justification for searches" is a recent reform? So until | now, they didn't need any paper trail of their searches? Not that | in house approval of your "justification" is really enough for | this. | | How can anyone believe the FBI gives a shit if it took them well | over a decade to go "maybe we should write something down when we | use this." | impish9208 wrote: | https://archive.is/gIzkx | hiatus wrote: | Weird, it seems cloudflare DNS is not resolving archive.is | (though google dns has no issue). ; <<>> DiG | 9.10.6 <<>> archive.is @1.1.1.1 ;; global options: +cmd | ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: | NOERROR, id: 34652 ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, | ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 1 ;; OPT | PSEUDOSECTION: ; EDNS: version: 0, flags:; udp: 1232 | ; OPT=15: 00 17 31 39 38 2e 32 34 35 2e 35 33 2e 31 38 32 3a 35 | 33 20 74 69 6d 65 64 20 6f 75 74 20 66 6f 72 20 61 72 63 68 69 | 76 65 2e 69 73 20 41 ("..198.245.53.182:53 timed out for | archive.is A") ;; QUESTION SECTION: | ;archive.is. IN A ;; AUTHORITY | SECTION: archive.is. 86272 IN SOA | carl.archive.is. admin.archive.is. 2033156158 1200 300 604800 | 3600 ;; Query time: 68 msec ;; SERVER: | 1.1.1.1#53(1.1.1.1) ;; WHEN: Sat May 20 09:14:33 EDT | 2023 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 136 | ksherlock wrote: | This has been an issue for years and there are reasons. | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19828702 | hiatus wrote: | Thank you I had no idea. | alecco wrote: | yep, reposting workaround: | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33937866 | | CloudFlare is in the right. This is for privacy. Just put | the IPs on your hosts file, it's easy. | https://dns.google/query?name=archive.is | | 23.137.249.79 archive.today | | 23.137.249.79 archive.is | | 23.137.249.79 archive.ph | | While there try a hosts blocklist | http://someonewhocares.org/hosts/ | | [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29024952 | TrispusAttucks wrote: | [flagged] | ModernMech wrote: | The Durham report restated everything we already knew for years | as a result of his multiple failed convictions. How come Durham | wasn't able to reach any convictions due to his "bombshell" | report? | TrispusAttucks wrote: | I agree. It was obvious to anyone paying attention. But most | people still believe there was some truth to it because the | media lied for years. The report was important to get those | people back to reality. | [deleted] | CTDOCodebases wrote: | and nothing will be done about it. | macinjosh wrote: | Stop voting for the establishment. | EscapeFromNY wrote: | When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And when | you have a massive database built through illegal domestic | spying... | qup wrote: | ...everything looks like a web frontend! | lern_too_spel wrote: | The database consists of communications of foreign targets, and | its legality isn't in dispute. What's illegal is to search that | database for terms related to Americans in criminal | investigations not related to national security without a | warrant. https://archive.is/jgWUt | pyuser583 wrote: | Here's something I don't get: why is it an "abuse" to run the | name of someone applying for a top secret clearance through the | databases? | | It's ok to run a school teacher in Bucharest, but if someone is | applying to be an FBI agent - nope. | | This isn't the first time the FBI has "wrongly" run the names to | prospective agents and clearance holders to through this db. | They've promised not to do it again before. | | But isn't this the perfect use case for such a thing? When you | apply for a security clearance, you waive certain privacy rights. | That's reasonable and part of the deal. | ghostpepper wrote: | This seems like the least egregious use. The article also talks | about 19,000 congressional campaign donors names being run, as | well as everyone who was arrested during several | protests/riots. | | Perhaps the most egregious: | | > And between 2016 and 2020, the FBI routinely ran names of | people who appeared in police homicide reports, "including | victims, next-of-kin, witnesses and suspects." | pyuser583 wrote: | This time (because this sort of thing happens again and | again) it's only a small part. Last time it was all of it. | jonhohle wrote: | If laws were broken by a law enforcement agency, the responsible | parties need to a) either lose their jobs or, minimally, be | reassigned to a department where they can never make that | "mistake" again, and b) be prosecuted to the full extent of the | law with and be sentenced to a punishment that discourages future | "mistakes" by others from occurring. Why are these laws in place | if they are not enforced? | | In recent cases, all levels of the FBI were complicit. Removing | funding may only take away resources from useful areas while | guilty parties are free to continue their bad behavior at the | risk of only a stern talking to by Congress every few years when | they promise this will certainly be the last time this happens. | Throw some agents in jail along and see if the behavior | continues? | | Imagine you or I caught lying to the FBI, lying to the courts, | and then lying to Congress. What would our fate be? Certainly not | continuing on with the status quo. | | Since DOJ has no interest in keeping itself accountable, what can | be done? Can individuals who were caught up in this file criminal | or civil complaints with any hope of relief? For someone not | caught up in this, how can they prevent tax dollars from funding | ongoing criminal activity? | BurningFrog wrote: | It was always like this, and will very likely always be so. | | You can't change it, but you can learn about it. | bloomingeek wrote: | I completely agree, at the risk of being too simplistic, the | FBI is a 'type' of necessary evil that our nation needs. | However, we must learn from the missteps. | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | > Since DOJ has no interest in keeping itself accountable | | FISA court investigated the FBI... | sieabahlpark wrote: | [flagged] | 547354 wrote: | [flagged] | daniel-cussen wrote: | [dead] | wahnfrieden wrote: | You're coming from a liberal (classical sense) perspective and | learning something about power, maybe! But your suggestion that | society is fixed by people following the rules harder sounds | like idealism. Money and power buy leniency and loopholes. Why | not try taking away the power instead?More rules and | punishments sounds a little like more power to wield if you can | look past the allure of a functioning bureaucractic process for | disposing of rule breakers | jonhohle wrote: | I'm not sure that I follow, but yes. I think that severely | punishing those who abuse special authority will improve that | aspect of the government. I don't think it will fix society, | but having a functioning justice system certainly can't hurt. | kurthr wrote: | So you think Trump should be jailed? | mc32 wrote: | And pretty much all of the living ex-presidents including | some presidential candidates and other federal officials | who lie to congress without any repercussions. | bloomingeek wrote: | Politicians, pastors, doctors, lawyers, police, parents, | judges, adults, etc...all must be held to a higher | standard. The word 'responsibility' seems to be | discounted when someone is caught. | uguuo_o wrote: | Unfortunately, none of this is actually surprising. When was | the last time such crime was actually prosecuted? It is very | hard to have any trust in the legal system when there are many | that curtail ot through sheer influence. | jonhohle wrote: | It's unfortunate that it's not surprising and even more so | that administrations feel like this is so accepted that (at | best) nothing need be done and (at worst) it can be used to | their advantage. | | Even when the minimal executive action of firing those | involved is taken (for example, firing Comey, McCabe, Strzok, | Page, Clinesmith) the media will attack the enforcers and | give comfort to the perpetrators. It's clown world. | silverquiet wrote: | Can you remind me again why Comey was fired? What rule did | he fall afoul of? I was always under the impression that | the FBI is an incredibly conservative institution in every | sense of the word, so it's not surprising how the biases | play out. What is strange is when they get caught up in | intra-conservative-world politics. | ModernMech wrote: | "And in fact when I decided to just do it I said to | myself, I said, "You know, this Russia thing with Trump | and Russia is a made-up story, it's an excuse by the | Democrats for having lost an election that they should've | won."" | | Trump told the world that he fired Comey for opening what | has now been shown by the IG and SC Durham after a 4 year | investigation to be properly predicated, if flawed. | Firing Comey was an attempt by Trump to avoid | accountability for what he and his campaign did, along | with destruction of evidence, lying under oath, and 11 | other counts of obstruction of justice by Trump | identified by SC Robert Muller. | | It turns out Trump's campaign did meet with Russians and | lied about it; Trump did had business in Russia he lied | about; his campaign manager did meet with a Russian spy | to discuss handing over dirt on his opponent; Russians | did hack the Democrats and distribute the data; Trump did | ask them publicly to hack his opponent in exchange for | relaxed sanctions; and his campaign was knowingly sharing | data with a Russian intelligence officer. So _of course_ | an investigation was opened into his campaign and their | ties to Russia. | jonhohle wrote: | In what way was it properly predicated? He was briefed by | the CIA that it was a campaign stunt. | ModernMech wrote: | You'll have to be more specific about what part of my | comment you're referring to as "it". Because obviously | the investigation wasn't a campaign stunt. | | And if you want to read about how the investigation was | properly predicated, here's the IG report: | https://oig.justice.gov/reports/2019/o20012.pdf | | The existence and thoroughness of this report begs the | question as to why the Durham investigation was ever | needed in the first place. | jonhohle wrote: | [flagged] | ModernMech wrote: | This is not what the IG and Durham found, read the linked | report. | zaroth wrote: | [flagged] | ModernMech wrote: | It was not a hoax that Paul Manafort was caught | exchanging campaign data with an Russian intelligence | officer by the Senate Intel Committee. It wasn't a hoax | that he met with a Russian spy at Trump's home to discuss | an exchange of dirt for relaxed sanctions. It wasn't a | hoax that Trump's campaign had a hundred+ contacts with | Russians but lied saying they didn't have any, including | under oath. It wasn't a hoax that Trump and Trump's | lawyer lied when they said there were no deals in Russia, | when in fact Trump had an in-progress "Trump Tower | Moscow" deal with a planned penthouse dedicated to Putin. | | These are not "hoaxes", but facts discovered through | investigation and detailed extensively in at least 9 | reports. In total, they show the Russians hacked the | Democrats to help the Trump campaign, the Trump campaign | welcomed the help, the campaign publicly asked Russia for | the help, and when the help came from Russia, the | campaign used the help to their advantage, and they hoped | for more. Then when the investigation into said help | happened, they obstructed it, tried to shut it down, and | called it a "hoax", which you repeat here. Everything | I've said is supported by hundreds of pages of reports: | The Mueller report, the Senate Intel Committee report on | the 2016 election, the IG report, and yes even the Durham | report corroborates what I'm saying. | | Taken in total, it's impossible to conclude these reports | support the theory that Russian interference in the 2016 | campaign, and the Trump campaign's welcoming and support | of that interference was a hoax. | | > Comey brought incredible disgrace to the FBI thru his | actions and leadership during the "investigation". | | No argument there. | zaroth wrote: | You're picking at the same straws hoping to spin gold. | There was no collusion period. And Russia did not in fact | interfere in any material way in the elector. | | You're like Steele still claiming the dossier wasn't just | absolute fictional trash. | | The extent to which the country was tore apart by 3 years | of witch-hunting "investigation" and the way the FBI | willfully lied and buried the truth due to their blind | hatred of Trump is the only thing criminal that happened. | ModernMech wrote: | So you have no rebuttal to the facts except to deny them? | That's a pretty weak hand. Before the Durham report you | could maybe claim this and say "wait for the report, | it'll set things straight." But now that the Durham | report has been released, the contents emphatically do | not undo the findings of the Mueller Report, the DOJ IG | Report, or 5 volumes of the Senate Intel report on this | matter. | | Steele didn't have 4 government investigations to back | his dossier, the main point of which was proven by the | Mueller report volume 1. | | > the way the FBI willfully lied and buried the truth due | to their blind hatred of Trump is the only thing criminal | that happened. | | This assertion is at odds with the IG report, in which | Horowitz finds no political bias on the part of the FBI | that would have impacted their investigation. | | I'm sorry, but again, I have reports from Mueller, | Horowitz, Rubio, and Durham to back my position. I will | weight their reports and evidence against the evidence | and reports you've provided and come to a decision | accordingly based on the facts. | zaroth wrote: | Steele had illegal campaign cash from Hillary Clinton | laundered as legal fees to back up his "dossier". No | charges for that of course, just a slap on the wrist | fine. | | They applied the full force and technology of the United | States spying apparatus and all the Mueller report proved | was that they found nothing. | | Brennan briefed Obama and Biden on the Clinton campaign's | dirty plan right from the start, and they ran with it. | They knew it was a Clinton plan and had no evidence to | back it up, and lied to Congress, and lied to the | American people about it. | | Those are the established facts, but there will always be | people like the Peter Strzoks who will never admit how | wrong they were, or how much harm they did. | | Then they followed it up in 2020 with 51 intelligence | officer / signatories lying to suppress the Hunter Biden | laptop. They're not done lying and cheating, and the FISA | abuses we know about are just the tip of the iceberg. | ModernMech wrote: | > Steele had illegal campaign cash from Hillary Clinton | laundered as legal fees to back up his "dossier". | | As far as the the investigation goes, the Steele Dossier | doesn't factor into it because it wasn't the predicate of | the investigation. IG Horowitz found no problem with the | way the investigation began. The Steele Dossier is a | distraction, and the IG report is the final word on it. | That you disagree is immaterial to the results of the IG | investigation. | | > Brennan briefed Obama and Biden on the Clinton | campaign's dirty plan right from the start, and they ran | with it. | | Again, the IG and Durham looked into the role Obama | played, and found nothing worth pursuing. They | _certainly_ didn 't find what was alleged by Trump, which | was that Obama White House spied on the Trump campaign. | Your talking points are out of date and out of line with | the results of concluded investigations. | | > Those are the established facts, but there will always | be people like the Peter Strzoks who will never admit how | wrong they were, or how much harm they did. | | We don't need to listen to Strzok or Page or anyone else, | because the IG report says that there was no political | bias in the predication of the or in the course of the | investigation. Since you seem to be reluctant to read the | report I linked, here's the relevant part of the | executive summary: As part of our review, | we also sought to determine whether there was evidence | that political bias or other improper considerations | affected decision making in Crossfire Hurricane, | including the decision to open the investigation. We | discussed the issue of political bias in a prior OIG | report, Review of Various Actions in Advance of the 2016 | Election, where we described text and instant messages | between then Special Counsel to the Deputy Director Lisa | Page and then Section Chief Peter Strzok, among others, | that included statements of hostility toward then | candidate Trump and statements of support for then | candidate Hillary Clinton. In this review, we found that, | while Lisa Page attended some of the discussions | regarding the opening of the investigations, she did not | play a role in the decision to open Crossfire Hurricane | or the four individual cases. We further found that while | Strzok was directly involved in the decisions to open | Crossfire Hurricane and the four individual cases, he was | not the sole, or even the highest-level, decision maker | as to any of those matters. As noted above, then CD AD | Priestap, Strzok's supervisor, was the official who | ultimately made the decision to open the investigation, | and evidence reflected that this decision by Priestap was | reached by consensus after multiple days of discussions | and meetings that included Strzok and other leadership in | CD, the FBI Deputy Director, the FBI General Counsel, and | a FBI Deputy General Counsel. We concluded that | Priestap's exercise of discretion in opening the | investigation was in compliance with Department and FBI | policies, and we did not find documentary or testimonial | evidence that political bias or improper motivation | influenced his decision. We similarly found that, while | the formal documentation opening each of the four | individual investigations was approved by Strzok (as | required by the DIOG), the decisions to do so were | reached by a consensus among the Crossfire Hurricane | agents and analysts who identified individuals associated | with the Trump campaign who had recently traveled to | Russia or had other alleged ties to Russia. Priestap was | involved in these decisions. We did not find documentary | or testimonial evidence that political bias or improper | motivation influenced the decisions to open the four | individual investigations. | | Case closed. That should be the end of the story for you. | | > Then they followed it up in 2020 with 51 intelligence | officer / signatories lying to suppress the Hunter Biden | laptop. They're not done lying and cheating, and the FISA | abuses we know about are just the tip of the iceberg. | | This is a deflection. Please read the reports if you want | to learn something. Your information is out of date and | inaccurate. | CamperBob2 wrote: | There's a school of thought that says that Trump needed | to be stopped by whatever means were necessary, fair or | foul. The events of January 6 did a lot to vindicate that | admittedly-troubling school of thought. | | My own thinking is that when you exempt yourself from | constitutional constraints, as Trump did in lying about | the election and inciting a riot, it's game on. I'd be | curious to hear a counter-rationale other than the | obvious (and equally true) "B...b...but FISA is just as | unconstitutional" or the equally-true "But Trump hadn't | yet done that at the time the FBI investigated his | campaign." His relationship with Paul Manafort alone was | arguably sufficient to set an aggressive | counterintelligence investigation into motion. If Trump | didn't wish to be treated like a captive Russian asset, | he might have tried not acting exactly like one. | MrPatan wrote: | Once you bought into "whatever means necessary", what | evidence would it take to change your mind? | CamperBob2 wrote: | I'm not necessarily saying that I buy into that position | myself, just that I've found myself surprisingly | sympathetic to it. | | At this point, I agree with those who suggest that | America cannot survive a competent Trump. So given the | hypothetical future appearance on the campaign trail of a | similar character with all of his faculties intact, I may | have to revisit the question. | MrPatan wrote: | And how will you tell such a monster appeared? Through | your independent research? Or because the TV told you? | ModernMech wrote: | I'd listen to the people who correctly called Trump out | as being an authoritarian wannabe. They were completely | right, and he proved that beyond any doubt on 1/6. Those | who spent spent 4 years apologizing for him, and still | are to this day, should be ignored when those predictions | are made. | CamperBob2 wrote: | Keeping in mind that we're talking about someone who ran | a full-page ad in the New York Times that called for the | death penalty for the Central Park Five. Few people | listened to Trump _himself_ when he told us who he was. | | When confronted with the NYT ad, reactions from over 30% | of the electorate fall into one of four categories: | "Wait, what? I never heard of that. Must not be a big | deal," "Fake news, the ad never actually accused anyone | by name," "Meh, he didn't really mean it," and "Hell | yeah, fry 'em all and let God sort 'em out." | | So it's not clear that anyone else's warnings could have | made a difference. It was up to the Deep State to stop | him. They failed. Not much of a Deep State, I guess. Only | Trump's own incompetence saved us from a horrific | outcome... and that won't scale, as people like to say | around here. | CamperBob2 wrote: | A worthy question, but one that goes too far afield for | this thread IMHO. | silverquiet wrote: | [flagged] | onlypositive wrote: | [flagged] | javajosh wrote: | Nowhere does it say that a crime must be surprising in order | for the perpetrator(s) to be prosecuted. | analog31 wrote: | The US is the most punitive major country in the world, yet we | still have crime. | newsclues wrote: | Aren't there countries that still do public executions and | corporal punishment? | | Incarcerations isn't the only form of punishment. | analog31 wrote: | I'm not sure that the quantity (per capita or whatever) of | those things exceeds the quantity of incarceration and | things like police violence in the US. But even being | middle-of-the-road in terms of barbarism is nothing to | write home about. | j33zusjuice wrote: | Yes, but as you know, this discussion isn't to prove that | the US is the worst country in the world. We don't even | consider countries like those that you're talking about in | these conversations because they're so behind and barbaric. | What's the point of even bringing this up except to | distract from the discussion? What are you trying to show | or prove with this? Remind everyone of things they already | know? Your comment is an attempt to invalidate the | legitimacy of the concerns posed above, and nothing more. | Most of us though we'd move past the idea that murdering | citizens is barbaric, and has no place in the world, yet | people like you insist on telling us that we're OK because | we aren't that, or that it's not so bad here because it | could be so much worse. That's not useful in any sense. | wongarsu wrote: | Because the US has an aversion to even think about the | systematic reasons that cause crime, and prefers to pretend | it's only about personal failings. People who do crime are to | be caught, punished, and punished some more (unless they are | high-class, good looking or part of a government agency, | etc). Yet at the same time the US seems to almost maliciously | engineer society to push people into hopeless situations | where crime looks like a good way to get by. | prottog wrote: | > Because the US has an aversion to even think about the | systematic reasons that cause crime, and prefers to pretend | it's only about personal failings. | | A lot of people think the other way around, where it's | unfathomable that anyone would commit a crime of their own | volition were it not for the weight of an unjust world upon | them. | bawolff wrote: | Does it matter? If people are opportunistic then you | should remove the systemic issues that make crime seem | like a good risk. If people are desperate you should do | the same thing. Either way the correct response is to | make crime not seem like the best option for someone to | do. | [deleted] | autoexec wrote: | > Because the US has an aversion to even think about the | systematic reasons that cause crime | | I'd argue that some people have incentives to ignore the | systematic reasons behind crime. Slave labor in the US is | partly dependent on prisoners. Crime keeps people fearful | and distrustful of each other. Crime is used to justify | increased control and monitoring of the public and the | abuse of prisoners. Crime enables a huge underclass of | Americans who pay taxes but aren't allowed to vote. | Sadistic cowards keep politicians elected who are "tough" | on criminals and they vote against things we know would | actually reduce crime whenever those solutions aren't also | needlessly cruel. | WarOnPrivacy wrote: | I'm sorry but an upvote is an insufficient reaction to this | comment. | | In decades of considering State privacy abuses and their | roots, I haven't come across an analysis that so succinctly | encapsulates the whole of causes+outcomes as this one. It | is one of the most Modern America things I have ever read. | dumpsterlid wrote: | [dead] | vlovich123 wrote: | That's not the interesting bit. Countries with less punitive | laws have better crime stats although of course you could | argue causation goes the other way. | jonhohle wrote: | On the lower end, if you know doing common activity X (say | possession) will get you a punishment as severe as more | impactful crime Y (breaking and entering), what difference | does it make? | | On the upper end, if you have no priors and your career and | family will be blown up because you want to do a political | favor for someone that results in destroying the public | trust, it probably does matter. | vlovich123 wrote: | > On the upper end, if you have no priors and your career | and family will be blown up because you want to do a | political favor for someone that results in destroying | the public trust, it probably does matter | | Given how frequently this happens I wouldn't be so sure. | You also have to care about destroying the public trust | and this is literally a thread about yet another instance | of the FBI destroying public trust. Also, you don't have | to have a corrupt intent to take actions that destroy | public trust. | tenpies wrote: | > The US is the most punitive major country in the world | | For this statement to hold, it requires the most absurd | definition of "punitive" imaginable. | | There are countries where talking negatively about the wrong | people is grounds for execution. | | There are countries where theft is punished by amputation of | a limb. | | There are countries where not flushing a public toilet that | you used, is a punishable offense. | | All of these countries are much more punitive, and almost all | of them have much less crime than the United States. | jonhohle wrote: | That flows with what I've said: rules for thee and not for | me. As a private citizen my city, county, state, or federal | enforcement agencies would have no issue charging me and | putting their best effort toward conviction and sentencing. | Meanwhile when those same agencies have very public crimes | within their ranks abusing the power they've been given, | nothing happens. | | How did New York deal with crime in the late 90s? Not by | ignoring it. | hindsightbias wrote: | Everytime I went to NYC I was told to never approach NYPD | if I was in trouble. | | One coworker was mugged and beaten. Walked up to cops. They | told him if he wasn't gone in 30 seconds they'd take him in | on a PI. | | Crime doesn't exist if it's unreportable. | hotpotamus wrote: | > those same agencies have very public crimes within their | ranks | | Do you think the problem is too much transparency? To use | your example of the NYPD in the 90's (though I think you've | probably got the wrong part of the decade if you're looking | for the high water mark of crime), was it notably less | corrupt than it is today, or was it just more opaque? | | But how did the NYPD deal with crime in the 90's? Wasn't it | by the kinds of privacy abuses called out in this report? | By shaking down suspected criminals through stop and frisk? | jonhohle wrote: | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_New_York_City | | Violent crime in NYC dropped precipitously with the | "Broken Windows" style of law enforcement during | Giuliani's terms as mayor (1994-2002). The advertised | theory was to enforce even small crimes like property | owners leaving broken windows unrepaired. Hypothetically, | the expectation that laws are being enforced makes people | more likely to obey laws at all levels. (jokingly: or | maybe people were so busy coming into compliance that | they ran out of time for murder.) | | There's obviously debate, criticism, etc., regarding the | cause but the theory has been applied to programming | among other places with some success. | hotpotamus wrote: | Do you think the widespread inability to enforce mask | mandates might have lessened peoples' likelihood to obey | laws at all levels? Seems a bit analogous to broken | windows, no? And timely. | koolba wrote: | Are you comparing a useless gesture of compliance to | theft or willful property damage? | pfffr wrote: | How were mask mandates useless? The data is in and they | did help prevent spread of infection. | onlypositive wrote: | No they didn't. | hotpotamus wrote: | The example given was property owners complying with | covering broken windows, wasn't it? Does that seem like a | useful gesture of compliance? I believe the idea is more | that it sets an example of compliance with authority, but | I agree that the whole concepts seems a bit questionable | to me. | dllthomas wrote: | The strongest criticism I have seen of a causal link is a | claim that violent crime dropped similarly during that | period in regions that did not adopt a similar strategy. | asveikau wrote: | > How did New York deal with crime in the late 90s? Not by | ignoring it. | | Actually, pretty much yes, or at least, that would have | been a better strategy than some Giuliani BS. | | Crime declined nation wide, and it had nothing to do with | any local policies. My favorite theory is that leaded | gasoline was causing crime spikes. But there are competing | theories, and I think people have concluded that it isn't a | single factor. | logicchains wrote: | [flagged] | jonhohle wrote: | That seems to be the issue, doesn't it? If you give the | Durham report weight, it doesn't even need to go back that | far. If someone is seen as a threat to influential people, | from the top down agencies will do what they can to impede | and undermine that administration. | | While on the one hand, it's amazing to see RFK speak so | boldly, on the other hand, should he be elected, I would | fully expect some significant event to derail his | administration. While getting shot seems too brazen, it | definitely sends a message to any future hopefuls that such | behavior is still not tolerated. | ModernMech wrote: | > If you give the Durham report weight, it doesn't even | need to go back that far. | | Ima stop you right there. The only thing you need to give | weight here are the indictments that were brought as a | result of the investigation, because that's what was | promised. I've read the report from front to back, and it's | filled with BS, omissions, and it even attempts to | relitigate cases Durham lost in court on the merits. It's a | pathetic way for a prosecutor to capstone his career. | | Read the Mueller report and the Durham report side by side. | They are night and day in terms of quality of evidence, | completeness, and clarity of reasoning. In fact, doing so | reveals just how the Durham "investigation" was really an | exercise in motivated reasoning, whereas the Mueller | investigation was a serious, sober investigation of where | the facts pointed. | jonhohle wrote: | The problem is that at the start Brennan admits that he | briefed the president, VP, and others, that the Clinton | campaign was about to do, what ultimately happened. So | one report starts by omitting that fact, and the other | does not. What follows is a variation of fruit of the | poisonous tree. | | > None of those five convictions "involved a conspiracy | between the campaign and Russians"[162] and "Mueller did | not charge or suggest charges for [...] whether the Trump | campaign worked with the Russians to influence the | election".[163] | | The investigation led to other crimes, like being pulled | over for a broken taillight and then getting busted for | possession. | typeofhuman wrote: | [flagged] | ModernMech wrote: | > So one report starts by omitting that fact, and the | other does not. What follows is a variation of fruit of | the poisonous tree. | | It's really not, because the investigation was still | properly predicated. Durham finds this and the IG finds | this. It doesn't matter what the Clinton campaign did or | didn't do, because the investigation wasn't based on | their actions. That it was is the lie of the predication | of the Durham investigation, and that he didn't find it | and prosecute it is his "failure" in the eyes of right | wing media. Why was Durham needed when we have an IG? | | > None of those five convictions "involved a conspiracy | between the campaign and Russians"[162] | | Note that "conspiracy" was never seriously alleged by | detractors (collusion was the accusation), and to the | extend it was, it was never allowed to be investigated | (by Rosenstein and then Barr, both appointed by Trump). | They very carefully boxed Mueller into investigating a | conspiracy without being able to prove it (by | investigating finances, which were considered a "red | line" and off limits for investigation). | | Second, you omit the fact that the Mueller report notes | that it faced lies to investigators, witness tampering, | destruction of evidence, and obstruction of justice at | the hands of POTUS. Their main catch, Trump's campaign | manager Paul Manafort, was in the process of being | flipped when Trump dangled and ultimately granted a | pardon, in a blatant act of obstruction of justice and | witness tampering. | | It was later found by the Republican-chaired Senate Intel | Committee that Paul Manafort was literally exchanging | internal campaign data with a Russian intelligence | officer during the 2016 campaign, as the Russians were in | the process of targeting Americans through Facebook | psyops (which the Mueller report proved). So there's your | collusion. | | There's also the matter of how the report was released, | causing a federal judge to call into question the | truthfulness of the AG Barr (calling his handling of the | report and redactions issued "misleading"). Barr notably | shut down the investigation as soon as he was confirmed | by the Senate. Many people's opinion of the investigation | was set due to those lies and omissions, maybe your own. | | SC Mueller was appointed due to the fact that the AG | Sessions was compromised (having lied to the Senate about | his Russia contacts as part of the Trump campaign), and | Trump was obstructing justice into the already ongoing | investigation (by firing the head of the FBI, and citing | the fact he was under investigation as the reason for | doing so). So really, the biggest problem with the | Mueller investigation was that it was investigating a | person who ultimately had control over the investigation, | who was also the only person who the investigation | couldn't hold accountable (due to DOJ policy of not | indicting a sitting POTUS). | tyre wrote: | RFK jr. is a conspiracy nut and a disgrace to his father's | name. | [deleted] | no_wizard wrote: | Unfortunately this is the same guy who doesn't believe in | vaccines[0] | | [0]: https://apnews.com/article/robert-kennedy-jr- | presidential-ca... | zaroth wrote: | Just the way you've phrased this shows you're not prepared | for actual scientific inquiry and the messiness of the real | world. | | Vaccines aren't things to be "believed" in like unicorns. | They are medical treatments with risk profiles and side | effects and billions of dollars of profits on the line. | Some of them are pretty great overall! | shrimpx wrote: | Your comment should be pointed at RFK Jr., who believes | vaccines cause autism, among other disproved nonsense. | iinnPP wrote: | I recently heard RFK Jr. on this specific topic. His answer | to handling the COVID pandemic was to initiate a worldwide | forum for scientists and doctors to collaborate and find | treatment (first from currently available medicines and | then to vaccines as needed). | | He isn't anti-vaccine. He has a problem with a specific | vaccine and how it was rolled out (sometimes with limited | but relevant force). | | I would call that view the only reasonable view. The sheer | number of people who will now forever be vaccine sceptics | that would never have been before is proof of that. The | Pfizer vaccine was presented as being ~95% effective. I am | the only person I know personally that has not had COVID. | My 100 or so acquaintances are all vaccinated with an extra | dose of natural immunity. No wonder people are sceptical, | even an idiot can see that it wasn't doing much of anything | to stop you from getting covid. | | Did it decrease severity? Hard to tell given that almost | everyone was vaccinated in my area. | | I normally don't comment on vaccines since it is so toxic, | hearing the solution from his mouth that made sense however | has made it a priority, even as a Canadian. | dragonwriter wrote: | > He has a problem with a specific vaccine | | Which one _specific_ vaccine would that be? | iinnPP wrote: | Im not sure honestly and don't care. | | The way things were handled created -many- new vaccine | sceptics and that will have a lasting impact for many | years to come. | | When you tell people their concerns of a specific vaccine | are invalid and then claim they are anti-vaccine, you are | lying. Why would anyone paying attention then trust you? | | Also, some high ranking politicians are on record stating | they wouldn't take a vaccine if it was created while | Trump was president. Nobody ia dismissing their entire | campaign based on these statements. | | Thanks for picking one point of my long post and ignoring | the other points btw. | dragonwriter wrote: | > Im not sure | | Because its not true. | [deleted] | NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: | Throwing agents in jail can't and won't solve the problem. What | happens is that the agents who avoid jail grow bitter... they | were the "good guys" after all, and only doing "what needed to | be done". | | So to see friends and coworkers punished for it makes them | bitter. They double down in their resolve. Instead of changing | behavior, they double down and promise themselves to be more | careful to avoid punishment. | | Additionally, at some point in this cycle, they decide that | those in charge, the ones punishing them, are more akin to | impostors who have infiltrated government and are twisting it | into something it shouldn't be. They begin their own loosely- | organized "resistance", and seek to undermine the very checks | and balances that miraculously allowed a few FBI agents to be | punished for transgressions. | | In their own heads, you see, they're the heroes. | | Reform is impossible, once the organization has grown large | enough to develop its own anti-reform "immune system". Which, I | suspect, is almost a 100 years old at this point. | | > how can they prevent tax dollars from funding ongoing | criminal activity? | | Don't pay your taxes. If your landlord were using your rent | money to murder undocumented immigrant children, would you ask | "but how can I make sure he just buys his groceries with that | rent money"? | | Hell no. You just stop giving him the money. Or maybe you just | keep handing it over and whining "there's nothing I can do". I | dunno. | raincom wrote: | "Prosecutorial Discretion" or "Selective Prosecution" is how | corruption becomes rampant. In other words, "laws for you | fools, but not for us", say FBI and DOJ. That's why the first | thing they can get you convicted for "lying to federal | officials". | qingcharles wrote: | Exactly. | | I went to jail for a crime I wasn't guilty of simply because | some rogue police decided to commit a raft of felonies to try | and gather evidence against me. When I put that to the judge | he told me that "the police are allowed to commit crimes to | gather evidence." | | I tried going to the prosecutor with it and they will just | laugh you out of the building. It's not a crime if you can't | get the prosecutor to prosecute it. And the prosecutor's | office almost never brings criminal cases to court on their | own, they rely on the police for 99% of their work. If they | went around prosecuting the police they wouldn't get any more | cases and they would put themselves out of business. | psychlops wrote: | > If they went around prosecuting the police they wouldn't | get any more cases and they would put themselves out of | business. | | The prosecutor works for the government. No business | involved. They will be just fine if there are no cases. | lazide wrote: | Not really - budget is allocated (and taxes often | created/raised) based on degree of public outcry/crisis. | | No crime, no need to pay for a prosecutors office (or a | lot of cops). | | A variant of 'use it or lose it', which is the standard | in gov't and large Corp budgeting. | 1lint wrote: | Sorry to hear how this played out. If you have the time and | are okay discussing it, consider publishing a write up of | the incident. Shining a light on abuse/raise awareness of | problems is the first step to getting them fixed. | StrangeATractor wrote: | Probably should have lawyered up. Illegally gathered | evidence is supposed to be inadmissible in court. At least | in the US. | | People get off on murder charges because of this, like that | lady that killed her infant but the cop searched her trunk | without a warrant or probable cause. She obviously killed | it, but the only evidence was inadmissible, so she walked. | qingcharles wrote: | That's not technically true. | | Evidence gathered in violation of a constitutional law is | often inadmissible. | | But if you look at situations in which police gathered | evidence in violation of a statute (e.g. committed a | felony that wasn't additionally a constitutional | violation), then I could count on one hand the number of | times evidence has been excluded in courts across the USA | in the last 100 years. | | source: I play a lawyer on TV. (not really) | StrangeATractor wrote: | Ugh, another reason to not trust the legal system. Sorry | for your troubles. | Natsu wrote: | A lot of things that people think are entrapment don't | count legally: | | https://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=633 | | Another fun one is that if you join their conspiracy, they | can charge you for crimes they committed as part of that | conspiracy. | WhereIsTheTruth wrote: | Why would the FBI use such database? | | Why they omit CIA from the equation? | | Law only apply to the FBI? or we pretend laws exist to prevent | agents from abusing it? | | Either way, this is another evidence of the massive global spying | capabilities of the US and how easily accessible they are for | their agents | data-abuse wrote: | When we hear these stories, we never hear about the end result. | We only hear about the act. It's like hearing a gun was fired. It | was fired, but what did it hit? | | The data that is in these databases have a high probability to be | abused. Blackmail and intimidation are easy to hide. What number | of the people that had their location data exposed through this | database were shot soon after? What number of people had their | identity stolen? What number of people lost their jobs? What | number of people had their families or friendships destroyed by | secrets being spilled? | | The dots are never connected beyond the admission of violations. | hattmall wrote: | I'm fairly certain quite a few of them are still in jail | without a trial yet right? At least for the January 6th | participants. | eganist wrote: | Stats as of March 25: | https://www.npr.org/2023/03/25/1165022885/1000-defendants- | ja... | | Cases being pursued by the DoJ: https://www.justice.gov/usao- | dc/capitol-breach-cases?combine... | | Noteworthy that $2.6bln was allocated to US attorneys this | year; not sure how much more was allocated to specifically | support January 6th prosecutions, but the prosecution of | every single one of them will hopefully serve as a deterrent. | [deleted] | jonhohle wrote: | [flagged] | j33zusjuice wrote: | [flagged] | AuthorizedCust wrote: | You can't imprison people for constitutionally protected | speech. The citizenry has to reject these people and | reject the anti-intellectualism ethos they and their | supporters inhabit. | tyre wrote: | Inciting violence is not constitutionally protected | speech. | ethbr0 wrote: | Deterrence has a role. | | As you point out, it's not most efficient path to | resolving differences in America, but I can't say that | forcefully pushing through police lines, breaking | windows, and illegally entering the Capitol should be | allowed to happen without penalty. | | People make their choices, and they pay the consequences | -- they're not puppets completely devoid of individual | agency. | | But yes, it's endemic in current American culture that | incitement goes unpunished while action takes the charge. | In politics, in business, and in religion. | | If we want to solve underlying problems, there need to be | more disincentives to whipping your | supporters/employees/believers into a frenzy. | | Shared culpability seems a good start. | Jerrrry wrote: | What about the prosecution of the law enforcement who | literally unlocked doors, shepherded people inside, and | then led them into chambers? | | If you think Jan 6 was anything more than a meandering of | useful idiots by a conspiring state, you are the other | useful idiot. | dragonwriter wrote: | > What about the prosecution of the law enforcement who | literally unlocked doors, shepherded people inside, and | then led them into chambers? | | Several law enforcement and active military participants | and collaborators--acting before, during, and after the | highly visible events of Jan 6--have already been | arrested and charged, most recently the MPD intelligence | chief, but your description is a false characterization | of what actually occurred. | | > If you think Jan 6 was anything more than a meandering | of useful idiots by a conspiring state, you are the other | useful idiot. | | If you genuinely believe this, you are just an idiot | (maybe a useful one for the people who organized, | executed, and then attempted to minimize the attack, but | definitely an idiot.) Yes, most of the participants may | have been radicalized sheep inspired and directed by a | narrower group, but they clearly weren't "meandering". | goodSteveramos wrote: | >Several law enforcement and active military participants | | Stop conflating protestors who happened to have unrelated | government jobs with the suspicious and supportive | actions of the capitol police who were supposed to be | keeping congress safe and instead escorted crazy looking | protestors around the capitol for photoshoots | HyperSane wrote: | And the man who instigated the whole thing is going to be | allowed to run for President again! | goodSteveramos wrote: | Yup. If all these useful idiot protestors are guilty of | treason how the hell has their leader who told them to do | it not been charged? The federal justice system is fake | and political. | Slava_Propanei wrote: | [dead] | asveikau wrote: | I wonder if some of those people will now support bail | reform. | vuln wrote: | Bail isn't even an option when you're detained for the | reasons they are. | ranger_danger wrote: | Just imagine the power someone would have if they were to | tamper with stolen data _before_ leaking it. Nobody EVER | questions the accuracy of leaked data. | abliefern wrote: | [flagged] | mananaysiempre wrote: | GP might be alluding to the recent murder of a Mexican | journalist, Fredid Roman Roman, who was shot shortly after | (allegedly) being targeted by a Swiss surveillance-for-hire | operator with Israeli connections[1]. As in, this is very | much a thing that can happen to victims of (targeted) | surveillance, and it was in the news recently. | | [1] https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/security- | aviation/2023-0... (https://archive.is/A2qmD) | lazyeye wrote: | I think voting in someone like Robert Kennedy is the only hope | against the Washington "uni-party" and a clearly corrupt justice | system. Who else is there? | dragonwriter wrote: | > I think voting in someone like Robert Kennedy is the only | hope against the Washington "uni-party" and a clearly corrupt | justice system. Who else is there? | | I'm old enough to remember when another celebrity political | outsider got this exact treatment in 2016. | | To the extent that a problem loosely matching your description | exists, the solution mostly isn't in Presidential elections, | and anyone selling that as the solution is either an idiot who | doesn't understand that the US isn't an executive dictatorship | or a would-be tyrant trying to make it one. | 20after4 wrote: | You think they wouldn't kill him just like they did the other | Kennedy troublemakers? | umanwizard wrote: | Wow, what a surprise! | chiefalchemist wrote: | So nice of the WSJ to follow order and use the proper euphemisms. | "Improperly searched" is far too neutral and/or lenient. But at | this point" what's another FBI scandle? And these are only the | things we know about. It's not like behind close doors they're | polishing halos and taking harp lessons. | celtoid wrote: | I've posted this link before and I really wish more people were | familiar with it. "Democracy Versus The National Security State" | (1976) by the late Marcus Raskin is only 32 pages long but it's | an excellent overview of the history of the rise of arbitrary and | unaccountable power in the US after WWII. It's also quite the | prophetic work. | | "We shall see that the national security state and the rule of | law are mortal enemies. In the first place, by its nature and the | mission which it has set for itself, the national security state | apparatus needs arbitrary power. Such power has its own code, | which is meant to govern or justify the behavior of the initiated | --after the fact. It operates to protect the state apparatus from | the citizenry." [0] | | [0] https://archive.org/details/democracy-versus-the-national- | se... | dredmorbius wrote: | Raskin's bio, for those curious: | | _Marcus Goodman Raskin (April 30, 1934 - December 24, 2017) | was an American progressive social critic, political activist, | author, and philosopher. He was the co-founder, with Richard | Barnet, of the progressive think tank the Institute for Policy | Studies in Washington, DC. He was also a professor of public | policy at The George Washington University's School of Public | Policy and Public Administration...._ | | Notably: _In 1971, Raskin received from Daniel Ellsberg, | documents that became known as the Pentagon Papers. Raskin put | Ellsberg in touch with New York Times reporter Neil Sheehan._ | | <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Raskin> | | And father of Rep. Jamie Raskin, as noted at Archive.org. | r3trohack3r wrote: | It's amazing how normalized this practice has become. And how far | down the slope we've slid. | | > Civil liberties advocates say the FBI uses Section 702 as a | backdoor for warrantless searches to get around the courts. | | I don't think they argued this originally. Originally we argued | that THE SEARCH HAPPENS BEFORE THE QUERY. That moving data into | the database constitutes a search. | | To oversimplify a bit, it's similar to the government coming into | your home every day, taking photos of everything, and | inventorying every item. Creating a huge manifest of everything | in your home, filing it away with every other manifest they've | collected on your neighbors, and then claiming they haven't | searched your home because they will only look at the manifest if | they think it's relevant to a qualifying investigation. | | Every entry in this database _should_ constitute a search. | | > "Say I want to collect information on Vladimir Putin," | explained Barbara McQuade, a former U.S. attorney, "and I see on | his Gmail, it turns out he's been talking to an American. So I'm | collecting on Putin, but it might capture communications with a | U.S. person, and so now in that database, I have every email he's | ever sent, and I can go in and query for that U.S. person." | | This isn't exactly accurate either. Last I heard, it was based on | "hops." Not just 1 degree of separation of Vladimir Putin, but N | degrees of separation from anyone considered to be a potential | "national security threat." | | So if your landscaper is sending money back home to their family | who is in contact with someone who is involved in a cartel, maybe | your entire digital footprint (metadata? more?) is fair game for | this database. | | If you text the owner of your gym and their babysitter's brother | is suspected of being associated with a foreign group, maybe your | entire digital life is fair game for this database. | | The scope of this data dragnet is staggering. | | > (Though the evidence suggests the FBI was searching for Black | Lives Matter protesters as much as Jan. 6 suspects.) The federal | court that reviewed how the FBI uses the database threatened to | put major limitations on the agency's ability to use it if the | FBI did not change its procedures. | | I don't understand how these searches that were illegally | conducted aren't required to be handed over to the defense team | for every trial this was used in, along with the records that | were returned for their client. Everything downstream of these | searches is tainted evidence, no? | eternalban wrote: | > The scope of this data dragnet is staggering. | | https://www.stasi-unterlagen-archiv.de/en/ | drewcoo wrote: | > It's amazing how normalized this practice has become. | | Really? After COINTELPRO, the FBI was legislated into domestic- | only knowledge, in an attempt to pen in their abuses. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO | | This, well worse, actually, was only to be expected from the | Patriot Act. | wonderwonder wrote: | I used to think that the people that were calling for the | dismantling of the FBI were insane conspiracy theorists. I am not | so sure anymore, the agency does appear to be compromised and | have a very distinct political allegiance. Law enforcement should | be politically neutral as they are very much the most powerful | force in the country. A compromised agency is worse than no | agency at all in some respects. | shrimpx wrote: | What's their political allegiance? I can come up with a half | dozen purposely screwed up or super shady recent FBI/DOJ | investigations toward either political party. | hunglee2 wrote: | authoritarianism is not a political system but a technique of | government control over the people, and the excuse is always some | kind of unspecified 'national security' | abliefern wrote: | That's a mockery of real authoritarian countries, where you | most definitely wouldn't have the checks and balances of a | court that finds a law enforcement agency misused data and with | a free press to publicize that fact. | schuyler2d wrote: | Any speculation on what this could be? | | > The Biden administration also declined to declassify details | about a new "sensitive technique" of surveillance performed under | Section 702 that required the court to weigh its legality, | keeping Americans in the dark about a method of spying even as it | lobbies lawmakers to renew the expiring portions of the law. | | Sometimes there are hints or past reporting. Eg before Snowden | there had been other reporting around Telco complicity at | switching stations. | | Maybe something with satellite connectivity surveillance? (Lol, | it would be rich if they said it was covered by FISA because it | went from USA to "space" and back in to US) (Edit for typos) | hattmall wrote: | It's probably monitoring social media private messaging or | mobile camera / microphone monitoring. | schuyler2d wrote: | That would have been years if not over a decade ago. This | would be something more recent | detaro wrote: | > _(Lol, it would be rich if they said it was covered by FISA | because it went from USA to "space" and back in to US)_ | | That pretty much was German BNDs excuse a few years ago. "Law | only restricts what we do on state territory, space isn't even | foreign ground" | bhaney wrote: | [flagged] | peter_retief wrote: | [flagged] | WarOnPrivacy wrote: | [flagged] | SapperDaddy wrote: | [flagged] | web3-is-a-scam wrote: | [flagged] | tomohawk wrote: | Add in this recent report showing how the FBI pushed a partisan | agenda, it's well past time to take a hard look at reforming the | FBI. | | https://www.justice.gov/storage/durhamreport.pdf | adrr wrote: | Partisan agenda like using a special prosecutor role to write a | report about policies and procedures? I don't think that was | mentioned in the order that creates that role. Also he how many | cases did he lose with malicious partisan prosecution? | sjaak wrote: | Our Constitution is neither a self-actuating nor a self- | correcting document. It requires the constant attention and | devotion of all citizens. There is a story, often told, that upon | exiting the Constitutional Convention Benjamin Franklin was | approached by a group of citizens asking what sort of government | the delegates had created. His answer was: "A republic, if you | can keep it." | catlifeonmars wrote: | Seems like an unstable equilibrium. | mindslight wrote: | From what we've since discovered about logical complexity and | system design, such an attitude today would be appropriately | described as cavalier malpractice. Yet the Founders have been | practically deified, while it's continually implied the problem | is merely that we're not following their simplistic | prescriptions well enough. | prottog wrote: | > it's continually implied the problem is merely that we're | not following their simplistic prescriptions well enough | | Is this wrong? America was founded to be a federal republic | composed of sovereign states sharing their power with a small | central government with clearly delineated powers; now we | have a massive central government that takes in two-thirds of | all taxation[0] and spends 38.5% of GDP as of last count[1], | and somehow decided that it had the authority to regulate a | farmer growing feed for his own animals[2]. | | [0]: https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/what- | breakdown... | | [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_gover | nmen... | | [2]: https://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1955/317us111 | silverquiet wrote: | It seems like the weak central government model ceased to | function around the 20th Century doesn't it? It was (and to | some extent continues to be) a time of cold and hot | conflict between superpowers, and a small government seems | antithetical to superpower. | mindslight wrote: | Yes - analysis of "just follow the rules harder" is | generally wrong, which is why we've moved on to blameless | postmortems. I agree with your criticism of the current | state of the system. The problem is the lack of mechanisms | that encourage convergence towards the desired state. | Without them, divergence continually adds up, creating the | well known ratchet effect. If Filburn itself had been | decided differently, the Supreme Court would have | eventually justified the federal government power grab at a | later time. Slower progression would mean we'd be in a | better state today, but we'd still be headed towards the | same place. | 35997279 wrote: | [dead] | Georgelemental wrote: | The Founders actually did a really good job. The extreme | level of separation of powers in the US (2 coequal | legislative branches, presidency, Supreme Court and lower | courts, all the state governments with their own divisions, | local governments, etc) makes it really, really hard for one | faction to fully dominate government, even today. This | feature of the US is pretty much unique in the world, even | among even democracies. But no system of government can be | perfect, or protect against all eventualities without regular | maintenance and upgrades. We've had three major overhauls so | far: Civil War reconstruction, the New Deal, and the 60s | civil rights movement. Arguably, we are due for a fourth. | jscipione wrote: | [flagged] | shrimp_emoji wrote: | Lol please seek help. | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | Good. I can't read the paywalled article but it appears that the | FISA court is providing a counter to FBI power. Sounds like a | healthy Democratic system of checks and balances to me and I'm | not being sarcastic. | Slava_Propanei wrote: | [dead] | whiddershins wrote: | Of course they did. Someone always does, eventually. | trident5000 wrote: | These agencies smell especially as of recent. Defunding many of | them and starting over makes a lot of sense. You're not going to | get the corruption out without a complete overhaul. I would argue | the FBI falls into the defund category with the latest events. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-05-20 23:00 UTC)