[HN Gopher] Nirvana fallacy ___________________________________________________________________ Nirvana fallacy Author : tomodachi94 Score : 68 points Date : 2023-05-24 05:30 UTC (1 days ago) (HTM) web link (en.wikipedia.org) (TXT) w3m dump (en.wikipedia.org) | mock-possum wrote: | Oops, I've been calling this the 'utopia fallacy' for who knows | how long. | compiler-guy wrote: | I've always called it that too. I suspect it is a common | alternative name. | Brendinooo wrote: | Something I say often is "utopia means 'no place'" or "no such | place as utopia" - people too often focus on trying to build a | perfect world/thing/product/whatever rather than focusing on | how to exist in an imperfect world. | eikenberry wrote: | That at least is a name that somewhat represents the idea. | Nirvana was a poor choice and probably stems from a | misunderstanding of the idea by the economist. | mtraven wrote: | That's a much better name actually. | readthenotes1 wrote: | Right? I would say "utopia fallacy" is the perfect label for | this meaning over "nirvana fallacy" because it can never be | misconstrued as something associated with the musical band | Nirvana. | eikenberry wrote: | The band has more in common with the usage here than the | Buddhist idea. | tangent-man wrote: | As a Buddhist I agree. Heh. | tangent-man wrote: | I think you'll find Nirvana [?] Fallacy | | https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/nibba... | freeopinion wrote: | What do you call the opposite fallacy? The one where any proposed | solution is worse than the status quo because of all the things | that could hypothetically go wrong? | | What-if-ism? | | Add: Example: A restaurant that throws away 10% of their supplies | each day proposes to donate them instead to a soup kitchen a day | before they would normally dispose of them. Then somebody asks, | "What if the soup kitchen holds on to them too long and then | somebody gets sick from the food we donated and we get sued?" | throwaway290 wrote: | By definition fallacy is something that looks correct but is | wrong due to a sneaky error in reasoning itself. Your case has | to do with information not reasoning. | | "These anti-drunk driving ad campaigns are not going to work. | People are still going to drink and drive no matter what." = | fallacy | | "These anti-drunk driving ad campaigns are not going to work | because a study from 50 years ago sponsored by Big Alcohol | definitely proves so." = many possible issues (too | lazy/stupid/malicious to check a better study) but no fallacy | minsc_and_boo wrote: | Possibly the _Slippery Slope_ fallacy. | | There's also an _appeal to consequences_ where if the outcome | of something is considered undesirable, then that something | must be false. | MichaelZuo wrote: | The restaurant example doesn't seem to be a fallacy? | | That is a real legal concern in US jurisdictions. I'm fairly | certain there's some on-the-record case law too. | | Plus, a real system can be almost limitlessly decomposed, the | lower bound is the black hole limit. | | So it doesn't seem like there could be an inverse fallacy. | fknorangesite wrote: | I think GP is trying to get at "unintended consequences", | "this was a good idea at the time but didn't scale", or "we | made totally-reasonable assumptions that turned out to be | incorrect" ... all of which I'm sure we've all experienced | first-hand in our lives. | MichaelZuo wrote: | I can't see how saying there were, or could be, unintended | consequences becomes a fallacy. | | All systems more complex then two electrons can behave | unpredictably. That's just a fact, that will always be true | in 100% of all possible scenarios. | | There's of course a norm in day-to-day life to not quibble | about every possible combination of 3 electrons or however | many below a reasonable threshold, but that norm is based | on the differing opinions of individuals in society. | w10-1 wrote: | By contrast, the transaction cost economics models make-or-buy | decisions as rational choice between real, available | alternatives, imposing the reality principle at choice time. | | In my experience of collective decision-making, it's often the | case that more aggressive, less-proven technologies are rejected | as unproven or unrealistic, largely because no one wants the | reputation in the group of having championed a mistake. | | By contrast, people deciding alone often will take the more | optimistic choice. In technology, that can mean that | person/engineer who's now on the hook finds ways to make the new | technology work (and avoid its flaws). | | That translates to high-achieving organizations giving | individuals the power to decide, but also holding them | responsible for the consequences. Whether the "move fast, break | things" permission to fail in service of learning new | technologies and the problem domain actually works depends on | some real capture of knowledge. Probably the job cuts in tech now | (particularly at Twitter) are driven by realizing this "real | capture" ain't happening. | | So it's not enough to avoid the Nirvana fallacy. You also have to | get past decision paralysis to learn, but show the lessons you | learned are worth something to the company. | n4r9 wrote: | Reminds me of the classic parental rebuttal "life's not fair". | True enough, but it's still worth trying to be fair in the here | and now. | lr4444lr wrote: | That's usually a shorthand for a child's limited understanding | of complex factors when parents are too tired or unable to | explain things better - not an actual moral claim. | skulk wrote: | That's a great example of the is-ought fallacy. "Life's not | fair" is, but perhaps not ought to be. | TheAceOfHearts wrote: | Maybe related to this but with different framing, I actually | think comparing the real world to the ideal can help us | prioritize and take steps towards making improvements. | | For example: I think abortions should be legal, but in an ideal | world the number of abortions would be near zero because access | to social safety nets, birth control, and sex education is | plentiful. | | The thing about reality is that it forces us to deal with | engineering constraints, and we have to carefully consider and | understand the tradeoffs being made. | pachico wrote: | I like this Wikipedia article, however, I would have preferred | it's contents to be transmitted directly to my brain in real time | when I opened Hacker News. That would have been so much better. | tbm57 wrote: | This article is talking about 'unrealistic' solutions - what | you just said is going to be a neuralink plugin in 2030 | jjeaff wrote: | Is neuralink even claiming to be working on input to the | brain? I thought it was just trying to read the human brain. | MontyCarloHall wrote: | This is a corollary of the fallacy of relative privation, aka the | "kids are starving in Africa so you have no right to complain | about anything less severe" fallacy. Both fallaciously dismiss | arguments by comparing them to unrealistic extremes. | atleastoptimal wrote: | Or "Do whatever I say because there's a slight chance if you | don't follow my arbitrary rules you will be tortured forever by | one of the characters in my arcane storybook" | mcphage wrote: | Isn't that just Roko's Basilisk? | mistermann wrote: | If the "so you have no right to complain" part actually | happened. Many people (including smart ones) throw around | popular memes with little regard for whether they are using | them legitimately. | | This meme has excellent potential for that as the definition is | subjective, but not explicitly disclosed as such creating a | dependence on the reader to realize this. | | Another excellent point: | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36076175 | Loquebantur wrote: | Funny you would respond with a fallacious comparison. | | Relative privation is not fallacious because comparison was | useless. Kids do starve (realistic) and there is even worse in | the world (so not an extreme either). But you need to choose by | some metric where to use your abilities, if you don't want to | end up being an egotistic hedonist. | | You should help to right wrongs in ways amenable to your | abilities, not more, not less. Honesty is key obviously, both | ways. | zokier wrote: | I think this is closely related to no true scotsman, both involve | comparison to idealized version of something. | atleastoptimal wrote: | aka every single one of Elon Musk's product pitches, especially | the Hyperloop | davidw wrote: | Oh. That Nirvana... Whatever. | skyhvr wrote: | ......Nevermind. | klodolph wrote: | I see this a lot when people are looking for some library / | framework / programming language / game engine. You keep adding | requirements and assume that you can spend some additional time | evaluating alternatives to make up for the longer list of | requirements you have. Reality is, there are often only a few | serious alternatives in the first place. Adding more and more | requirements to your search is, in some way, a stubborn refusal | to prioritize among those requirements. Prioritization doesn't | just mean affirming that some of your priorities are important, | it means acknowledging that some of your priorities are | unimportant and can be discarded. | | Related is the assumption that any custom-built library you write | is going to beat an existing, well-known library that doesn't | exactly match your needs. It's easy to come up with a list of | problems with existing libraries, but your theoretical custom- | built library can be perfect, because you're not imagining that | it has any serious bugs or design flaws. You end up building your | own solution and, in the process, rediscover _why_ the existing | library was built the way it is. | ozim wrote: | It hits home when you realize people were saying 90% of | software projects were failure. | | People wanted perfect solutions in one go. Everyone was blaming | software developers. | | If one expects only perfect outcomes then it is easy to get | high fail rate. | remkop22 wrote: | This hits home. Manytime have I come to appreciate a library or | technology only after delusionally attempting to create a | 'better' version. Mid attempt I actually start to understand | the problem space, at which point I humbly and thankfully start | depending on said library or technology. | MichaelZuo wrote: | What kind of problem spaces need so much trial and error to | understand? | mcphage wrote: | https://xkcd.com/592/ | austin-cheney wrote: | Due to libraries and frameworks I most typically see the | inverse of this fallacy. A team claims to want something | amazingly ideal and yet easily feasible, but then reject the | premise outright if they cannot execute it in their favorite | library or framework in 30 seconds or less. | pessimizer wrote: | This is usually just used as a sneak attack on someone's else's | suggestion, a way to call it unrealistic without actually making | a case that it's unrealistic. Rest assured, the people who tell | you not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good do not think | that what you suggested is either perfect or good, they just want | you to shut up. | | The "fallacy" in this vein that I see is when after Bob suggests | idea A to solve problem X, Mary says that idea A shouldn't be | done because idea B is better for problem X, but Mary _also doesn | 't support idea B._ Mary actually supports problem X, but if she | admitted that, she would lose her influence on the reaction to | problem X. | thewataccount wrote: | My favorite is still the "Fallacy fallacy" aka "Argument from | fallacy". | | From my understanding it's very difficult to make a good faith | debate without one of the bajillion fallacy's being applicable | somewhere. | | Is there a name for the difficulty of making a debate without any | single fallacy? | gpderetta wrote: | Fallacy Fallacy Fallacy? | avgcorrection wrote: | Most "fallacies" are informal and rhetorical and not direct | logical fallacies. Almost no one will say that X is not | perfect, therefore it can be discarded. But plenty will focus | their argumentation on how X is not perfect and leave the | implication on the table that X is not worth bothering with. | xg15 wrote: | I see the same problem with the various lists of cognitive | biases, rethoric devices, etc. | | I think the trick is to see them as patterns which should allow | you to more easily construct a counter argument - instead of | pretending that merely pointing out the pattern itself would | already be enough to disqualify the argument. | | e.g., in the examples from the "perfect solution" section, they | didn't just shut down the discussion with "well, that's a | Perfect Solution Fallacy, so your argument is invalid!", they | actually explained in each case, _why_ a non-perfect solution | is still desirable. | | You could compare it with chess: An opponent is absolutely | allowed to leave a piece vulnerable and you don't get an | automatic win by just pointing out a bad position - you only | get an advantage if you actually take the piece. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-05-25 23:00 UTC)