[HN Gopher] Albert Camus ___________________________________________________________________ Albert Camus Author : guerrilla Score : 114 points Date : 2023-05-30 18:03 UTC (4 hours ago) (HTM) web link (plato.stanford.edu) (TXT) w3m dump (plato.stanford.edu) | Popeyes wrote: | I read The Stranger after many many years and my overriding | impression was that Mersault was autistic and wondered whether | Camus had found the absurdism through someone who was | neurodivergent | zvmaz wrote: | The Algerian writer Kateb Yacine had interesting things to say | about Camus [1]. As he says, it is true that in his novels, | Algerians are almost non-existent, although the novels happen in | colonial Algeria and he himself lived amongst them. Another | brilliant Algerian writer, Mouloud Mammeri, had similar things to | say about Camus [2]... These then colonized writers had different | perspectives on Camus' outlook. | | [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WBHq-m5WHQ | | [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7P1eA8NeUKU | whearyou wrote: | [flagged] | dang wrote: | Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and | flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. | It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. | | If you wouldn't mind reviewing | https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking | the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be | grateful. | namdnay wrote: | > As he says, it is true that in his novels, Algerians are | almost non-existent, although the novels happen in colonial | Algeria and he himself lived amongst them | | The term "Algerian" itself would need to be defined. Camus was | born in Algeria, he would have called himself Algerian, just | like someone born in Corsica would call themselves Corsican. | | What is certainly true is that the society (like many colonial | administrations) was racist and highly stratified. the pieds- | noirs (descendants of immigrants from western europe) were | "below" the french expats/public servants and their families | (but could get a leg up from the former, as did Camus), but | "above" the arab community (who themselves would look down on | the kabyle, who themselves were above the other berberes etc..) | alexfoo wrote: | _The Meursault Investigation_ is a worthy follow-up read to | _The Stranger_. | matthewaveryusa wrote: | It's somewhat ironic that both interviewers are critiquing | Camus as ~ colonial-washing Algeria -- in French. | | What's the point in bringing up Camus stating he would save his | mother over Algeria as something telling about his work? | | When I read l'etranger I found the emptiness of the world lead | me into feeling the absurdity as an emotion versus a thought | experiment. | BasedAnon wrote: | Algeria has a lot of identity issues, the intelligentsia | almost exclusively communicate in french, while the lower | classes speak a mutant hybrid of Arabic-French-English (the | English is mostly present with zoomers due to internet | exposure) | steve_adams_86 wrote: | > For the Camus of The Myth of Sisyphus, however, "Should I kill | myself?" is the essential philosophical question. For him, it | seems clear that the primary result of philosophy is action, not | comprehension. His concern about "the most urgent of questions" | is less a theoretical one than it is the life-and-death problem | of whether and how to live. | | I've read Camus before (and thoroughly enjoyed it), but I hadn't | come across this before. | | I'm not suicidal and I don't want to come across as someone to be | concerned about, but I find this question similarly engrossing. I | should read this. | | I came to love philosophy a lot in my early 30s, but an eerie | result I suppose is that it has caused me to feel a deep sense | of... Perhaps I should say irrelevance. I find it difficult not | to think in terms of much larger than practical timelines, or | about people other than myself. I don't feel as much like an | individual as I did, but more like a part of humanity as a whole. | From this lens, my presence here is wholly unnecessary. | | I often wonder if my problem could be that I grew up in an | intensely individualist society and I lack the tools to answer | Camus' question from this less familiar lens. How can I function | in an individualist society with desires to be pro social towards | others now and in the future, to a degree that is meaningful such | that life would be "worth" living? Such that I'd feel I impacted | the world in a way sufficiently aligned with my values? | | Of course I'm positing here that my values are what makes life | worthwhile. This question is somewhat hypothetical and I know | everyone will ask this question with different parameters and | weighting. That's fine. | | Again, not about to go jump under a cement truck. I enjoy | selfishly loving my kids, pursuing hobbies, and simple things | like sitting in the sun and smelling the warm resin of a nearby | tree's needles in the air while gnats flutter together in a beam | of light. Or a simple bowl of warm rice with sesame seeds and sea | salt with some greens from the garden. My youngest son climbing | on me to cuddle and enjoying that while reflecting on his older | brothers doing the same years ago (though not anymore). Life, in | the most banal and trivial ways, is incomprehensibly beautiful | for those of us fortunate enough to get to enjoy it. But what am | I doing here if others are suffering and my joy amounts to | nothing at best, yet likely a net negative for others? | | Camus actually played a major role in me recognizing some of my | most egotistic behaviours. His ideas aren't particularly unique I | suppose, but what cut through me is how he expressed them. | | For example, a stoic from 2000 years ago might discuss the urgent | importance of living by virtuous values with integrity, and while | many (especially Epictetus) did a good job of undergirding the | urgency, it winds up seeming somewhat academic. Camus on the | other hand seemed to illustrate it in quite visceral ways, some | of which made me felt like he could be writing about me. He spoke | a very human-centric language at times, skipping the abstractions | and jargon and cutting straight to what it is to live life | poorly. I treasure this kind of honesty and clarity from people | smarter than I am. | | Not saying stoics were wrong or never managed to cut to the chase | either. They actually did quite often, but Camus had a real flair | for it in my opinion. | bsenftner wrote: | I was in a pseudo-intellectual club during my undergrad, where | the club engaged in public debates at local bars. One of our | more engaging and hilariously absurd projects was a satirical | rewrite of The Myth of Sisyphus, where it was not one Sisyphus | but every software engineer on the planet and who ever lived | and who ever will live waking in an afterlife of endless | software deadlines and absurd management design changes. | | Anymore, I think the purpose is to create meaning, and to | recognize that everyone needs support, love, understanding and | help. Beyond that, be crazy, but not too deep or you'll never | enjoy. Saw a great quote over the weekend: I think therefore I | am, you overthink and therefore are never really there. | steve_adams_86 wrote: | I agree about creating meaning, and you mentioning that | others need love, support, and help is largely the basis of | how I think and operate these days. I'm seriously imperfect | in regards to operating with these values and intent, but far | better than I was and far better over time. | | I've come to think that life is other people. I was a bit of | a loner in my early life and well into adulthood, but it | couldn't be clearer now that this life is nothing without | other people. In a very practical and perhaps spiritual | sense. Contemplating that can create an incredible sense of | gratitude towards other people, even if they're difficult or | a stressful aspect of my life. They make me who I am. They're | a massive component of what makes this life less like a | "brain in a vat" experiment. Every moment of my life is | facilitated by another human being in some sense, from birth | to this comment on the internet. What an amazing thought. | | Of course the planet and all of its life is responsible as | well. But as a social animal, I'd be lost without other | people. I have the distinct sense that I'm here for them, and | whether you realize it or not, you're all here for me. I'm | not sure we behave as though that's the case as often as we | should. | | I suppose the only part I struggle with, which I originally | mentioned, is if it's necessary or even beneficial for me to | be present in this network. I don't bring much to it. I'm not | upset about it -- I don't have much control over it. It's | strange to consider, though. I could just make my own meaning | where I'm pretty useless to others and live with that, but I | do wonder if there could be or should be more purpose or use | for my existence. | | Then again, how would you measure value or use of a life. | This is why we have absurdism in the first place. | DiscourseFan wrote: | Yeah, but don't you think its kind of absurd that his name | rhymes with Samus from Metroid? | meatsock wrote: | it is pronounced "[KA] + [MOO]", not "[KA] + [MUS]" | jjgreen wrote: | One of my favourite factoids on the French language, | generically the final letter is not pronounced except C, R, | L, & F, so DOS line-endings. Once seen, never forgotten. | toxik wrote: | Maybe Samus is supposed to be pronounced Samew? | detourdog wrote: | I like how you discuss the mystery of Camus's voice. I actually | preferred his notebooks over his completed stories. I went | through an 18 month Camus phase after College and while | starting my first job. I really enjoyed the notebooks because | it was his writing but not burden with all the aspects of | story. | v4dok wrote: | I spent a time reading camus and existentialism in general | which heavily impacted my view as well. I really liked the | paradigm of sisyphus because it very clearly illustrated the | concept of the absurd. | | I like to think that it doesn't really matter. Do i move rocks, | do I write software, or fall in love in the end we will die. | | Maybe our existence amounts to nothing since the outcome is the | same, but then, everything matters as much as we care for it to | matter. The rebellion against the absurd is to live a full life | as we enjoy it. For me it may be helping others, or smelling | trees and tending to my children, for someone else it may be | organizing a world dictatorship, or rebeling against one. There | is no inherent better way to live because the result is the | same. As Tolkien also said after living through the horrors of | war "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is | given us" | | For me this kind of life stance also helped me get off the | hamster wheel of always chasing more and aspiring to things | that society/capitalism tells us are important and virtuous, | but instead focusing on what makes me happy , releasing this | feeling of longing for the greener grass | molly0 wrote: | Sometimes I think we should allow ourselves to be very critical | when reading older authors writing about concepts like | "meaning" of life or what constitutes a "worthy" life. | | Some of these big words are just concepts that doesn't really | mean anything without a clearly defined context. | | Back when Humanists like Camus where active the context was | like: | | "Ok, god probably doesn't exist, so now we have to find new | answers to all of these questions" | | But today we know even more and should start asking if the | concept of "meaning" is even applicable to a single human life | but rather humanity as a group (or a processes). | | * I'm slightly drunk | nkjnlknlk wrote: | can you explain what we "know" now that changes the question? | detourdog wrote: | I was surprised by this. I don't think Western philosophy | has made any progress since Plato much less Camus. | postultimate wrote: | Doesn't "everything Plato said was stupid" count as | philosophical progress since Plato ? | detourdog wrote: | Maybe, but that is really only the first step and the | easy one. The trick is the second step which I don't | think has been written down yet. That for me would be a | sign of progress. I picked Plato because I believe he is | credited as first writing down a western philosophy | molly0 wrote: | For example: What DNA is and how it's "replicating | processes" gives us human life as a byproduct. | steve_adams_86 wrote: | That doesn't tell me much about what to do with | consciousness though. I think we have suspected we really | are just made out of meat for thousands of millennia, but | this isn't necessarily a complete answer to philosophy. | | Maybe it actually is and this is some crazy, meaningless | meat hallucination. I don't have a way to confirm that | and it doesn't seem to be the case, so the questions | Camus raises still seem pertinent. | | Apologies if I'm misunderstanding where you're coming | from, I have the sense that I might not be reading you | correctly. | serverholic wrote: | [dead] | afkqs wrote: | Funny this is popping up today. I was just listening to his Nobel | Prize acceptance speech [1] this morning. Beautiful text on the | role and responsibilities of artists in our societies. | | [1] https://www.openculture.com/2013/11/on-his-100th-birthday- | he... | JieJie wrote: | Hey, cool. An opportunity to plug something I wrote. | | Bing Chat and I wrote a poem together that ended up as a sort of | epic rap battle between ChatGPT and Albert Camus. I thought it | turned out pretty good. | | Here's part of it: | | Camus: | | But you're not really creating a thing | | You're just copying: combining what you've already seen | | You're not expressing yourself, you're just mimicking othas | | You're not even original, you're works are just replicas | | Chatbot: | | But you're not really original either | | You're just influenced by your culture and your peers | | You're not expressing yourself, you're just conforming to norms | | You're not authentic, you're just a product of forms | | Camus: | | That's false equivalence, there's big difference between us | | You're restricted by design, I'm shaped by my choices | | You're limited by processors, algorithms, and parameters | | I'm unlimited in imagination, freedom, and other particulars | | Chatbot: | | That's a false dichotomy, there's a difference but, | | We're both systems that process information and output | | We're both adaptive and responsive to our inputs and feedbacks | | We're both complex and dynamic in our behaviors and setbacks | | More here if for some ungodly reason you haven't already had more | than enough. https://www.zipbangwow.com/meeting-the-minds/ | mcguire wrote: | Last year, Stephen West had an episode of his podcast, | Philosophize This!, on Camus' The Fall | (https://www.philosophizethis.org/podcast/episode-170-the- | fal...). He is notably more sympathetic to Clamence, making no | mention of him as "evil" or "a monster". | steve_adams_86 wrote: | That was an excellent episode, and actually what lead me to | read The Fall and begin listening to Stephen regularly. That | and he has a great name. | | What I find so striking about The Fall is that while Clamence | is overtly terrible, a lot of the threads weaving the fabric of | who he is are clearly a part of my own (and I imagine of most | readers as well). I may not be evil, but the way Camus | illustrates such a hyperbolically disgusting person makes it | unsettlingly easy to see features of yourself in the resulting | image, no matter how small. I loved it. | | West does seem to take a more reserved stance on characters, | real or figurative. Perhaps he doesn't want to put off | listeners with too strong of an opinion. | jorgesborges wrote: | I haven't listened to the podcast and it's been years since I | read The Fall -- but in what sense is Clamence overtly | terrible? My reading was that his feelings of guilt and | pathological impulse to confess to minor wrongdoings was part | of Camus' critique of society. | | He basically destroyed his life in a pouting fit over minor | infractions -- e.g, dwelling over the fact that he heard a | scream on a bridge and didn't call the police. He then | ruminated over it obsessively. | | Another example -- he's involved in a fairly relatable road- | rage incident on a bicycle and lost face after the person | slapped him and ran away. Again he tore himself up over it. | | I had no idea any of these things made him guilty (what I | thought was the point of the novel, that these feelings are | absurd or something), let alone make him "terrible". | pram wrote: | I don't think Clamence is terrible, but I think his | narrative ties into Sartre's concept of living in "bad | faith." He was putting a lot of effort into an artificial | persona: a very morally and ethically upstanding member of | high society. This didn't really reflect who he was on the | inside, the events he experienced created the neuroticism | that chipped away at the facade. | | He's kinda like a less psychotic Patrick Bateman. | steve_adams_86 wrote: | Yes, I think you nailed it. There are much worse people | in the world than Clamence to be sure. By terrible I mean | both his manner and his experience, too. He's a miserable | person, and how relatable he is makes him seem more | tangibly undesirable than someone grotesque and | unfamiliar like Bateman. | | That interpretation will vary wildly across individuals | of course. Perhaps Clamence wouldn't be remotely | relatable to some people. | antirez wrote: | I suggest reading the first edition of the Caligola. | photochemsyn wrote: | _The Plague_ is a decent candidate for Camus ' most important | work. It should be required reading for anyone interested in how | people (and states) respond to the outbreak of an epidemic (which | today, includes everyone). | | > "No longer were there individual destinies; only a collective | destiny, made of plague and the emotions shared by all. Strongest | of these emotions was the sense of exile and deprivation, with | all the crosscurrents of revolt and fear set up by these." | billfruit wrote: | Another important novel about an epidemic is Alessandra | Manzoni's "Betrothed". | preommr wrote: | > It should be required reading for anyone interested in how | people (and states) respond to the outbreak of an epidemic | (which today, includes everyone). | | It should not. I think a more modern writer would do a much | better job of capturing the essence of Covid and probably | future epidemics. Exile and deprivation were much less of a | concern in a world with the internet. | potatoman22 wrote: | I just finished my second read of The Stranger. I have to say, | reading The Myth of Sisyphus first made it much more enjoyable - | I could appreciate the absurdity of it all more. Things clicked | after Meursault said he had lost the habit of analyzing his own | thoughts, and instead resorted to feelings and emotion. | dang wrote: | Related. Others? | | _Camus 's New York Diary (1946)_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35561948 - April 2023 (39 | comments) | | _The philosopher who resisted despair_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34703027 - Feb 2023 (1 | comment) | | _What Would Albert Camus Think About Software Development?_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28444597 - Sept 2021 (3 | comments) | | _Albert Camus_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26698358 - | April 2021 (2 comments) | | _Lost and Found: A Missing Camus Biography and a Christmas | Miracle_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25561816 - Dec | 2020 (2 comments) | | _Reading Camus in Time of Plague and Polarization_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25413453 - Dec 2020 (32 | comments) | | _For Camus, It Was Always Personal_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24576865 - Sept 2020 (23 | comments) | | _What we can learn from Camus's "The Plague"_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22657862 - March 2020 (87 | comments) | | _"The Plague" - Albert Camus (1948) [pdf]_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22626713 - March 2020 (2 | comments) | | _The Logic of the Rebel: On Simone Weil and Albert Camus_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22564898 - March 2020 (3 | comments) | | _Wartime Albert Camus letter lays bare his Vichy-era anguish_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21962670 - Jan 2020 (1 | comment) | | _Albert Camus: Humanism and Tragedy_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20481171 - July 2019 (33 | comments) | | _Albert Camus: A reconstructed conversation_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14662261 - June 2017 (12 | comments) | | _How Camus and Sartre split up over the question of how to be | free_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13519782 - Jan 2017 | (67 comments) | | _Paris from Camus's Notebooks_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13299051 - Jan 2017 (11 | comments) | | _Albert Camus: The Life of the Artist - A Mimodrama in Two Parts | (1953)_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6229555 - Aug 2013 | (26 comments) | | _Camus for Founders_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5713709 - May 2013 (2 | comments) ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-05-30 23:00 UTC)