[HN Gopher] Japan Goes All In: Copyright Doesn't Apply to AI Tra... ___________________________________________________________________ Japan Goes All In: Copyright Doesn't Apply to AI Training Author : version_five Score : 72 points Date : 2023-05-31 20:58 UTC (2 hours ago) (HTM) web link (technomancers.ai) (TXT) w3m dump (technomancers.ai) | waboremo wrote: | Is the wording accurate here? This is essentially the only source | besides the untranslated article and the machine translated | version sounds confusing (whether it applies to what is created | by AI or what can be consumed in training). | resoluteteeth wrote: | What actually happened was that Takashi Kii of the | Constitutional Democratic Party of Japan was arguing that the | current laws (from 2018) are problematic because they are | extremely loose and allow even illegally obtained content to be | used for training, and he asked Keiko Nagao, Minister of | Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology to confirm | that this is the case. | | She confirmed that under current laws that's true but said that | they need to keep an eye on it because there's a balance | between the development of new AI technology and protection of | copyright. | | The Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and | Technology is also in the process of compiling information | about case law on copyright and AI but there don't seem to be | any current plans to amend the law again in either direction. | | (You can see the whole exchange here although the translated | autogenerated subtitles on youtube may not be great: | https://youtu.be/fyxx_0KmaKw?t=4457 ) | georgewsinger wrote: | Japan also ranks 3rd (behind the USA & India, with larger | populations) in ChatGPT usage: | https://www.demandsage.com/chatgpt-statistics/ | | There's also been discussion of their government using ChatGPT to | reduce red tape: | https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-04-18/japan-gov... | | It's cool to see Japan and Japanese culture taking techno- | optimist stances on AI. | [deleted] | nmkag wrote: | "Despite having the world's third-largest economy, Japan's | economic growth has been sluggish since the 1990s. Japan has the | lowest per-capita income in the G-7. With the effective | implementation of AI, it could potentially boost the nation's GDP | by 50% or more in a short time. For Japan, which has been | experiencing years of low growth, this is an exciting prospect." | | And I could potentially be a billionaire. Where is this based on? | It seems to me that if AI boosts the GDP for the benefit of the | 1% who steal all intellectual output ever produced, the rest will | suffer. | | This is a horrible decision from Japan. | surgical_fire wrote: | > This is a horrible decision from Japan. | | Eh, I doubt it. | | AI is potentially something that can massively increase | productivity. With a declining population in the foreseeable | future, an increased productivity may well be a boost that they | need. | Guthur wrote: | Boost for who though? if it works out there'll be more for | less. Wages won't increase, the number of jobs won't increase | the price of assets will inflate. None of these are good | things for 99% of us. | visarga wrote: | Looks like AI is more tightly coupled to the employee (user) | than the employer. AI needs prompting and supervision, that | is a human skill that is tied to the employee. When the | employee moves to another company, they take their AI skills | with them and original company can maybe retrain the model | with his data, a stop-gap measure. I think there currently is | no AI that works without human involvement in critical | scenarios. | WhatIsDukkha wrote: | So this means llm trained on libgen and ... which is huge. | | Current models are only trained on "open" texts. | IvanAchlaqullah wrote: | Miyazaki will definitely hate it. The last time someone demoed AI | animation he said "I would never wish to incorporate this | technology into my work at all. I strongly feel that this is an | insult to life itself." [1] | | And that was before stuff like GPT-1 or Stable Diffusion exist. | | [1] https://www.indiewire.com/features/general/hayao-miyazaki- | ar... | shagie wrote: | There is a pair of videos on this subject that I find rather | good and informed. They are from the channel "The Art of Aaron | Blaise" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Blaise ) | | Disney Animator REACTS to AI Animation! | https://youtu.be/xm7BwEsdVbQ (this is watching the Corridor | Crew's video) | | Why AI will NOT be taking Your Animation job - | https://youtu.be/-lhbzbSck04 | brandelune wrote: | The original links here, to the actual question asked and the | answer by the minister: | | https://kiitaka.net/21312/ | waboremo wrote: | This sounds like the exact opposite of what the title is | claiming. | throwaway33381 wrote: | Yeah. Copyright laws in Japan are extremely strict. I would | not be surprised at a complete ban on this. This is just a | fluff piece like a lot of ads coming in recently. | m3kw9 wrote: | This would work if they also not allow generated AI to be | copyrighted | djaouen wrote: | This is good news. This is basically stating that AI is inventive | (which it is, in my humble opinion). | acer4666 wrote: | What if you overfit your model to the point of exact | reproduction? Or anything in between that and what you consider | inventive. Where is the line drawn. | scottiebarnes wrote: | So if you train an audio model on say, Eminem's voice, then write | some songs and have it perform them...Would this output be legal | to publish? | numpad0 wrote: | IIUC/IANAL: depends on whether anyone feels the data to be "it" | or not. Provenance is not too relevant. | shagie wrote: | I've been amused by the WH40k videos narrated by David | Attenborough. | | There was some discussion about this a few years ago regarding | Lyrebird - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14182580 | | In particular, celebrities have an additional right - Right of | Publicity. | | https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/publicity | | > In the United States, the right of publicity is largely | protected by state common or statutory law. Only about half the | states have distinctly recognized a right of publicity. Of | these, many do not recognize a right by that name but protect | it as part of the Right of Privacy. The Restatement Second of | Torts recognizes four types of invasions of privacy: intrusion, | appropriation of name or likeness, unreasonable publicity, and | false light. | | https://www.inta.org/topics/right-of-publicity/ | | > In the United States, no federal statute or case law | recognizes the right of publicity, although federal unfair | competition law recognizes a related statutory right to | protection against false endorsement, association, or | affiliation. A majority of states do, however, recognize the | right of publicity by statute and/or case law. States diverge | on whether the right survives posthumously and, if so, for how | long, and also on whether the right of publicity is inheritable | or assignable. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_rights (and in | particular | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_rights#Japan ) | | > In October 2007, J-pop duo Pink Lady sued Kobunsha for Y=3.7 | million after the publisher's magazine Josei Jishin used photos | of the duo on an article on dieting through dancing without | their permission. The case was rejected by the Tokyo District | Court. In February 2012, the Supreme Court rejected the duo's | appeal based on the right of publicity. | polishdude20 wrote: | What's the difference between that and someone else who just | happens to sound like Eminem in terms out output? | | As long as you don't market yourself as Eminem that should be | completely legal. | scottiebarnes wrote: | I suppose so. I'm just imagining these "ghost AI artists" who | publish catalogues of music using the audible likeness of | more prolific artists. | | I know that you could have always just hired an Eminem | impersonator and have them lay down tracks...but this | technology lets you achieve speed and scale. At least the | Eminem impersonator was a real person. This is just a model | learned off an artists voice. | 2023throwawayy wrote: | > At least the Eminem impersonator was a real person. This | is just a model learned off an artists voice. | | I fail to see how that has any difference on the output. | kyleyeats wrote: | To anyone who disagrees: Am I allowed to learn how to draw | Jigglypuff? I don't own Jigglypuff. | snickerbockers wrote: | Am I allowed to distribute these ROMs of Pokemon games over | BitTorrent? I don't own Pokemon. | kyleyeats wrote: | No. I answered your question, do you have an answer for mine? | snickerbockers wrote: | you can draw it but you can't [legally] sell it without | permission from The Pokemon Company. And you definitely | can't start a new media franchise based on your OC which | combines jigglypuff with Sonic the Hedgehog. | surgical_fire wrote: | God created emulators for ROMs to be loaded into them. | | To not distribute the ROMs would be heresy. | circuit10 wrote: | I mostly agree with your point but this isn't the best analogy | because while you're allowed to learn to draw Jigglypuff, you | probably could get in legal trouble for distributing or selling | those drawing if it's not fair use. I think a better analogy is | using Jigglypuff drawings to learn how to draw things like that | in general and then creating your own character that's not | exactly the same but uses some concepts you learnt | sylware wrote: | Considering the amount of animes Japan does produce, they could | very probably train amazing AIs: they could assist in a | significant way the creative process of such studios (look at | digital corridor experiment). | | Worth to try for a long time and maybe waste a lot of resources. | kyleyeats wrote: | It'd be really great to finally see some anime models hit the | Stable Diffusion scene. | EscapeFromNY wrote: | I hope this is sarcasm :) | | The anime crowd were years ahead of the curve. | https://www.thiswaifudoesnotexist.net/ came out in 2019 | setr wrote: | More than the anime production is that anime-fans are database | animals -- they catalogue anime to ridiculous degrees. Some of | the best image training datasets were always the boorus; anime | fans have basically been prepping for ML/AI since the 80s | nancyhn wrote: | All countries will have to follow suit or are effectively | committing seppuku, self selecting themselves out of the AI gene | pool. | wwweston wrote: | If you're not going to socialize AI gains, and leave in place the | social systems that value people by their output, waiving | copyright or other IP is astoundingly anti-humane. | | What should be instead is that _fair use_ doesn 't apply to AI | training. That is, anything other than explicitly negotiated opt- | in should be illegal. | surgical_fire wrote: | Eh, I disagree. Copyright laws are mostly bullshit anyway, and | only tend to favor capital holders, who tend to buy up all the | copyright they need. I would gladly see copyright rendered | useless. | | The peasantry hardly benefits from it anyway. | fnordpiglet wrote: | I think this should generally be true. The aggregation performed | by model training is highly lossy and the model itself is a | derived work at worst and is certainly fair use. It may produce | stuff that violates copyright, but the way you _use or | distribute_ the product of the model that can violate copyright. | Making it write code that's a clone of copyright code or making | it make pictures with copy right imagery in it or making it | reproduce books etc etc, then distributing the output, would be | where the copyright violation occurs. | mannyv wrote: | There's no difference between an art student looking through a | museum or archives for ideas and an AI using the material for | training. | | Same could be said for reading. A medical student reading | through textbooks or a writer who reads is essentially what an | AI is doing. | | You can ask an art student to create something in a certain | style. You can get writes to write in a certain style. | Equivalent. | Retric wrote: | AI models will make 1:1 copies of training data where artists | try and avoid doing so. It's common to obscure this copying | by intentionally inserting lossy steps, but making an MP3 | isn't a new work. | Trombone12 wrote: | Indeed, if we don't care at all about "x is y" statements | being true, they can be "applied" to reading. | | To determine if an art student and DALL-E really are the | same, despite their _very obvious difference_ (one has arms | and is part of a net of social relations while the other is | intellectual property), will take some actual arguments which | I presume you of course had planned to provide in a second | comment from the start. | antiterra wrote: | A student is a human and AI is not. We don't have to apply | the law equally to both regardless of how similar the method | is. | krapp wrote: | >The aggregation performed by model training is highly lossy | and the model itself is a derived work at worst and is | certainly fair use. | | I mean, I've literally gotten the Superman logo in Stable | Diffusion without even trying, so it isn't that lossy. | fnordpiglet wrote: | And if you use it, you're violating copyright. But you will | find no copy of the logo in the model data. The model is way | too small to contain its training imagery from an information | theoretic point of view. | sandworm101 wrote: | No. Making a single copy for your own use is still a copyright | violation. There are exceptions (fair use, nomitive use etc) | but just because people are rarely sued for personal copying | doesnt equate to that copying being permitted. And trademark | issues, such as the other commenter generating the superman | logo, are subject to a host of other rules. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-05-31 23:00 UTC)