[HN Gopher] US urged to reveal UFO evidence after claim that it ...
___________________________________________________________________
US urged to reveal UFO evidence after claim that it has intact
alien vehicles
Author : bloak
Score : 153 points
Date : 2023-06-06 18:04 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| madspindel wrote:
| Can we rule out UT? Ultraterrestrial, meaning "they" are from
| this Planet Earth, but maybe left due to an event (the flood?)
| many millions years ago, or maybe just 12 000 years ago (the
| younger dryas impact?).
| tiffanyh wrote:
| My thoughts exactly, which is why I asked the question of "how
| did the government come into possession of this aircraft".
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36218316
| strangattractor wrote:
| It's the perfect grift. If the DoD denies having evidence then
| they are hiding something. If they show you the evidence they
| possess then they are hiding stuff anyway. The grifter gets
| payback/attention in either case because it is all indisputable
| and unprovable. Legally you are untouchable because the proof for
| or against is unobtainable. The X-Files poster says it all "I
| want to believe."
| elric wrote:
| Sounds like a social experiment to see how fast rumours spread or
| something. Next up: hysteria. Give it a week and the papers will
| say that there are big bad aliens in Moscow or some such.
| tikwidd wrote:
| We now know that exoplanets and the conditions for life abound in
| the universe. Where the conditions for life abound, the null
| hypothesis ought to be that life abounds. In discussions of alien
| life and intelligence, we are often biased by earlier states of
| knowledge about the universe and our position in it. When we
| first started digging up dinosaur bones, we came up with
| fantastical notions of creatures to explain these artifacts that
| were mysterious to us. Notions that fit into our existing
| worldview, drawn from folk knowledge and cultural history. Once
| archeologists started studying the bones carefully, they gave us
| stories more fantastical than we could have ever imagined in the
| framework of our folk knowledge. I suspect the same will turn out
| to be true of UAPs.
|
| For example, UAP stories are often ridiculed on the premise that
| intelligent alien life would not bother to come all this way just
| to hide out in the ocean. That's our folk knowledge of aliens:
| they like to travel, are eager to make contact with other life
| forms and are capable of doing so. But the elusive behaviour of
| UAPs is exactly what we would expect from an "unmanned"
| scientific probe. The home planet would be dozens or hundreds of
| light years away, so the craft would need to be completely
| autonomous in the absence of any communication system. Where does
| an autonomous probe go to look for signs of life? Oceans.
| tedivm wrote:
| Knowing that life _may_ be common is a lot different than
| knowing that intelligence is.
| boringuser2 wrote:
| Would anybody with even an ounce of critical thinking faculty
| believe this even if they explicitly came out and said "yep,
| we've got aliums, folks"?
|
| There's literally no level of evidence I would accept because the
| premise is contrary to numerous, basic logical inferences.
| viraptor wrote:
| > There's literally no level of evidence I would accept because
| the premise is contrary to numerous, basic logical inferences
|
| Sounds like you'd accept something that breaks the basic known
| science then. If they could demonstrate any tech which does not
| exist, or is wildly outside of the current limits, would that
| convince you? For example energy use allowing interplanetary
| travel in a vehicle of unreasonably small size.
| api wrote:
| How is it fundamentally illogical? I mean I'm skeptical as
| hell, but one possible answer to the Fermi paradox is that
| there is no paradox because there are aliens here.
| yeeeloit wrote:
| You are correct. The reactionary and emotional comments in
| here are extraordinary.
|
| Sit back and enjoy the ride.
| notJim wrote:
| Alliums are delicious and their flowers are quite nice as well.
| bsaul wrote:
| What would those logical inferences be ? I'm not sure i got
| your point right
| boringuser2 wrote:
| I'm willing to put aside literally every mechanical
| interpretation of probability here, ignoring really poignant
| questions, in favor of one overarching question:
|
| Do you really, really think a species capable of interstellar
| travel would have vehicles or crafts that we could recognize
| as such? That feels more like a technology 100-200 years
| ahead of us, akin to science fiction, than the reality of a
| species hundreds of thousands or MILLIONS of years ahead of
| us technologically, whose existences would simply be fucking
| incomprehensible to the human eye or mind.
|
| The conception that such entities are travelling the galaxy
| in dinky little craft is completely absurd.
|
| They could probably scan our fucking souls and create
| replicas of our qualia with technology from the interstellar
| equivalent of a Walgreens.
|
| Or, more likely, they simply have technologies that we can in
| no capacity conceive of or understand at all.
| ethanbond wrote:
| The fundamental issue is that people really have no
| intuition as to how unfathomably gigantic space is.
|
| Traveling Mars to Earth would require some decent tech.
| Traveling from the next star over requires some mind-
| bending tech. An entity traveling from the next galaxy over
| would necessarily be in possession of just some truly
| incomprehensible technology and would probably exist on
| spatial and temporal scales that just cannot be loaded into
| our ape brains via our sensory organs.
| boringuser2 wrote:
| Now, imagine their dinky little arts and crafts UFOs are
| "crashing" due to something trivial like gravity.
| Solvency wrote:
| Just playing devils advocate though: okay, but couldn't
| they also just have really high-tech ships in a primitive
| shape (like a sphere, for aesthetic reasons) with really
| fast engines and really strong hulls, too? Maybe we're
| simply too limited in our naive essence to understand the
| technology behind such a simple premise.
| boringuser2 wrote:
| "Ships" feels really really anthropomorphic.
| ethanbond wrote:
| I mean, sure, the odds are not zero. But they seem very,
| very, very, very close to zero (to me).
|
| And then the odds go down further that they have tech
| that can move them 10,000+ light years in a palatable
| amount of time/energy for them to visit Earth.
|
| Then the odds go down further by the fact that, if they
| exist with that broad a view of the universe, Earth is
| almost certainly not worth visiting.
|
| Then the odds go down further by the fact that we have
| allegedly detected and recovered them?
|
| Not zero but it really is astronomically low, even if you
| have high conviction the universe is actually teeming
| with life.
| boringuser2 wrote:
| Can you imagine recovering alien technology, and the best
| we have to show for it is an iphone, with East Asia
| starting to lap us in things like semiconductor
| manufacturing?
|
| You'd sure thing ALIUM technology would be useful for
| Intel to leapfrog Asia's foundaries.
|
| Weird, where is that stuff?
| Solvency wrote:
| Oh I never said anything about them visiting us. Or
| finding us. Or wanting to.
|
| Just the super fast super durable aesthetic spheres.
| bsaul wrote:
| I think a modern jet is similar enough to a bird that
| animals created millions of years ago (prehistoric birds)
| can have some basic understanding on how it behaves.
|
| What makes you think just because it's millions of years
| more evolved we wouldn't be able to get the general gist of
| what it does ? (not how it does it, of course)
| boringuser2 wrote:
| Apologies: This comment is a terrible analogy.
|
| Try explaining quantum physics to Aristotle.
|
| That's a mere 2-3000 years of technology with large
| periods of stagnation.
|
| Give Churhill/Stalin/Hitler an iPhone.
|
| They now have access to a device of unparalleled ability
| compared to anything they could have conceived of, and
| they will simply be completely incapable of understanding
| or utilizing it outside of performing basic tasks.
|
| That's 60 years of the accelerated age of technology we
| live in.
| incrudible wrote:
| You can give an infant an ipad and they will figure out
| how to use it pretty quickly. They will have an
| understanding of its purpose. You merely extrapolate from
| our advances of 5000 years that there must be technology
| that is _inconceivably_ advanced.
|
| Though he did not believe in it, Aristotle was aware of
| the concept of atoms (that he had no hope of observing).
| I am sure he would have gotten the gist of quantum
| physics too.
| thatjoeoverthr wrote:
| I'd be happy to explain any of this to Aristotle. "It's a
| picture that draws its itself. Here, touch it." We do
| this every day with children. Ten thousand years o
| development and you're caught up in five. It's fine!
| boringuser2 wrote:
| My point is that our relative distance in time and
| technology is basically zero, yet we're already seeing
| massive gaps in capability.
|
| Yes, Aristotle would likely be able to pick up on the new
| monke uptake given that he was a unparallelled mind. That
| was a pretty weak analogy given it didn't impart the
| information that I intended.
| andrewflnr wrote:
| > Do you really, really think a species capable of
| interstellar travel would have vehicles or crafts that we
| could recognize as such?
|
| Yes. That is, they almost certainly use objects made out of
| actual atoms to travel it or whatever the hell. There are
| almost no hints, with the possible exception of dark
| matter, in even the most speculative of well -grounded
| physics, of anything else they could be using. So that's
| the the null hypothesis. And the mere presence of that
| object in an interaction is enough to recognize it with
| high confidence as a vehicle.
|
| People get too obsessed with the idea of technology
| indistinguishable from magic. Physics is still real, still
| imposes hard constraints on technology, and our tech is
| already sufficiently shaped by those constraints that other
| things within those constraints will at least be
| recognizable with some effort. We may not know how it works
| right away, but that's a very different question.
| boringuser2 wrote:
| Quick question for you.
|
| Have you heard of a really smart guy named "Isaac
| Newton"?
|
| Well, his ideas are only ~300 solar years established and
| observations in quantum mechanics have opened a realm of
| complete impossibility to a Newtonian worldview.
| Beldin wrote:
| While I completely agree with you on interstellar travel,
| I'd like to add the nuance that you seem to assume that
| there is no life in the Solar system other than on Earth.
|
| That could very well be true... but we're not even
| confident ruling out life on Mars completely, and we landed
| there and took soil samples and explored.
|
| Honestly, if there are extraterrestrials on Earth, I'd
| wager my hat that they're from somewhere in the Solar
| system. Just because the alternative is _even more_
| unlikely -- as you rightly argue.
| boringuser2 wrote:
| No, that can't be it.
|
| No local drones or Dyson spheres, but we're cohabitating
| with a species capable of intra-solar travel?
|
| Seems highly suspect. They'd need to be at roughly our
| level of technological development, which, if true, would
| be more likely to believe in a concept of "God"
| engineering that outcome than any kind of organic alien
| life.
| bartislartfast wrote:
| > That feels more like a technology 100-200 years ahead of
| us, akin to science fiction
|
| So my theory is in about 150 years, DJI will release a
| drone with a time-travel capability, and the UFOs we see
| now are people in 2170 trolling us.
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| Given the enormity of the universe and the seeming[0]
| impossibility of FTL travel, plus the complete absence of
| astronomical observation of extraterrestrial civilization,
| and the incredibly tiny (on astronomical scales) window of
| time in which we have data, any other explanation for pretty
| much any phenomena we care to observe will be more likely
| than "aliens did it".
|
| [0] _extremely_ well supported
| rngname22 wrote:
| Even if we pretended aliens wouldn't be able to surpass
| FTL, Von Neumann probes only take half a million years to
| spread across an entire galaxy, which is a grain of sand of
| time in cosmological timescales.
|
| "Let's take a look at one of John von Neumann's most
| fascinating contributions to science: the Von Neumann
| probe. Simply put, a Von Neumann probe is a self-
| replicating device that could, one day, be used to explore
| every facet of the Milky Way in a relatively small window
| of time.
|
| The general idea is to build a device out of materials that
| are readily available and easily accessible out in space,
| like on rocky planets or small moons. Once it finds a
| suitable destination, it lands and mines the material it
| needs to build even more devices, which, in turn, land on
| other planets and moons and build even more.
|
| The system is very effective, and by some estimates, it
| would take around half a million years to dispatch millions
| of probes across our galaxy, assuming each one travels at
| approximately 1/10th the speed of light, or 18,640 miles
| (30,000 km) per second (though the real number could be
| closer to ten million years, which is still no time at all
| in the grand scheme of things)."
| paulddraper wrote:
| Even without FTL, time dilation makes travel conceivable,
| no?
|
| You can get halfway across the galaxy in less than 50,000
| years.
| axxto wrote:
| Here are some things that were, at some point, long
| considered to be physically impossible:
|
| -Deep sea exploration
|
| -DNA sequencing and cloning
|
| -Flight
|
| -Long-range electric power
|
| -Microbes
|
| -Organ transplants
|
| -Solar panels
|
| I understand the enormity of the proposition of things such
| as FTL travel. But just saying "it doesn't have a fit
| within our current framework of understanding, so it's
| impossible and a moot point" seems a little...conceited,
| given all the historical precedents of exactly the opposite
| becoming true, eventually, given enough public interest.
| birdyrooster wrote:
| Considering the grift between DoD and Skinwalker Ranch, I am
| sure we can expect similar fraud throughout. New York Post did
| a 4 part expose that uncovers this. I highly suggest it. See:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwfaAz9kxcc
|
| Basically Federal agents became "convinced" that paranormal
| stuff is happening at Skinwalker ranch, but that is/was because
| of significant conflict of interest where they earn income from
| entertainment enterprises (like History Channel) by leaking
| information to them -- even information which is completely
| falsified.
| TechBro8615 wrote:
| The paradox of ufology is that we can't trust the government
| because they've been covering up aliens for 70 years, but now
| we know aliens are real because the government says so.
|
| The only fact I know for certain is that the federal government
| and military industrial complex has a history of lying and
| waging information warfare on American citizens. If they tell
| me aliens are here, there's no way I will believe them. As much
| as I want to believe, I simply can't, unless I personally have
| some experience with an alien.
|
| And remember... no matter what happens, no matter what the
| government or the "aliens" tell you... _do not get on the
| ships_!
| avgcorrection wrote:
| Ufology is an FBI astroturf which is supposed to be a more
| exciting alternative to listening to a 90 minute lecture on
| the Sandinistas by Chomsky.
| ChainOfFools wrote:
| Now why the hell didn't anyone tell me, when I was say age
| 11 or 12 or so, that a career path existed whereby one
| might be able to get a job with the FBI which consists of
| deliberately trolling people into believing that UFOs
| exist, with access to effectively limitless resources to
| make it stick. For actual money, including a government
| pension.
| smolder wrote:
| If that's someone's job specifically, it's probably a
| small part, and not at all fun, in-context. I think it's
| also safe to say they wouldn't have unlimited resources.
| RajT88 wrote:
| I think the best evidence against Aliens is if the government
| had any, they would have been trotted out for a rally by now
| by the last guy.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| Ever watch Independence Day?
|
| "Plausible deniability"
| adventured wrote:
| It's exceptionally likely Trump was kept away from as much
| intel as they could reasonably keep him from. We know that
| from things that leaked out after the fact, eg by how
| General Milley behaved (gave orders to disobey nuclear
| launch commands coming from Trump).
| Sharlin wrote:
| From what I've heard, it's not like he was even
| interested in the intel he was _supposed_ to be
| interested in.
| boringuser2 wrote:
| I would also reject personal experiences with an "alien" as
| manufactured.
| paulddraper wrote:
| > the premise is contrary to numerous, basic logical inferences
|
| How so?
|
| The argument for no aliens is lack of evidence, not evidence of
| their lack.
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| _" yep, we've got aliums, folks"?_
|
| And now I'm trying to imagine aliens that look like members of
| the onion family.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onion
| somekyle2 wrote:
| If they brought in some trustworthy skeptical folks with some
| tools and enough background to know what compelling nothing
| looks like, and they came out saying, "Oh man. oh wow. I'm
| trying to come up with another explanation, but it really seems
| like they have it." I'd start taking it seriously. "Guy who
| seems trustworthy said it's real and he saw the proof" is so
| very normal, for aliens, ghosts, various religious phenomena.
| "Someone was convinced" isn't compelling to me. "The specific
| trustworthy non-believers who were given access to the evidence
| were convinced" would shake me. That moves it from "might be a
| delusion or hoax" to "if it's a hoax/fraud, it's a very good
| one".
|
| Although, "specific physical / recorded evidence made publicly
| available for study" would be even better if the evidence is
| strong. Once you're at "if it's a hoax/fraud, the perpetrator
| has advanced science we don't" it's a world-changing thing;
| maybe it's not an alien, but whatever it is it's amazing.
| teawrecks wrote:
| Nothing remotely close to that will ever happen, because the
| people who care about this don't care. In the same way that
| you want extraordinary evidence to back up these
| extraordinary claims, they are prepared to disregard any and
| all evidence to the contrary in order to continue believing
| all of those same claims.
|
| If you haven't, I recommend watching the YT minidoc "In
| Search of a Flat Earth" by Folding Ideas. It's not about the
| aliens, it's not about the earth being flat, it's about the
| conspiracy and who is behind it. If you dig deep enough, it's
| always rooted in some racist or antisemitic world view.
| boringuser2 wrote:
| Really great post, really terrible conclusion.
| NickC25 wrote:
| Won't happen.
|
| Why? The most obvious questions will be asked, and those
| questions will hurt the financial interests of the powers-that-
| be.
|
| Questions like "how did they get here?" and "what is the energy
| source that powers these crafts?" Politicians with stock
| portfolios chock full of Oil&Gas stocks will certainly not want
| that info seeing the light of day. Same with those who hold
| defense stocks - all those trillions spent and they can't shoot
| down a small craft?
|
| That's nothing to say of the major religious organizations that
| will inevitably whine and cry that their gravy train is also now
| also permanently derailed. No more tithing or mandatory donations
| to a god when there are now species from another planet coming
| and going as they please, and are likely thousands of years ahead
| of us.
| HWR_14 wrote:
| Your understanding of incentives is backwards. Politician's
| stock portfolios aren't fixed in stone. They can sell their Oil
| & Gas and then short it, or more importantly invest in whatever
| single company they would steer the commercialization of a new
| power source to. Defense stocks go _up_ , not _down_ , when
| people discover there is a new threat we need to arm ourselves
| against with newer weapons because the old ones were
| inadequate. And major religious organizations wouldn't suffer
| at all if aliens exist - I know of no major religion that
| denies the existence of alien life. Meanwhile, during turmoil,
| more people turn to religion.
| dumpsterdiver wrote:
| > No more tithing or mandatory donations to a god when there
| are now species from another planet coming and going as they
| please, and are likely thousands of years ahead of us.
|
| While certainly there would be tension caused by the canonical
| issues, I don't think people will stop making pleas to what
| they perceive as higher powers. I would expect that such a
| shocking revelation would cause more people to flock to the
| church because they suddenly realize how small and powerless
| they are.
| NickC25 wrote:
| Yes, but the whole thing about "(insert deity of your choice
| here) made man in his own image" that seems to be quite
| prevalent throughout most major religions gets debunked
| almost immediately if there's some bipedal creature that
| predates our entire civilization showing up in a hyper-
| advanced spacecraft.
|
| There are no higher powers if someone rolls up being able to
| do what our current understanding of physics calls magic or
| has no way to explain it.
| notaustinpowers wrote:
| As someone raised southern baptist but no longer religious,
| they'll just change the meaning behind the phrase.
|
| "He made us in his own image in the sense of our spirit"
|
| "He is imperceivable and therefore He may take many forms"
| (I.E. when God was a flaming bush)
|
| Or my fave, "He works in mysterious ways".
|
| The church will adapt as it always has for millennias.
| Firmwarrior wrote:
| "Surely THIS piece of logic will be the one which topples
| the concept of Religion"
| bostonsre wrote:
| Successful conspiracies seem hard to keep a cap on when they
| get too big. If this is the first leak of something true
| related to actual materials, it could spur the few non-evil
| congressman to dig further and cause further leaks. If this is
| a true conspiracy and they had complete control, all of this
| UAP stuff wouldn't have popped up in the media and in congress
| in the past few years.
| devwastaken wrote:
| The X planes project was intentionally obscured by the idea of
| "aliens" to hide the unhideable. It's no different here.
| bragr wrote:
| Tangential, but there's some great analysis and debunks of the
| video the headline photo is taken from:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsEjV8DdSbs
|
| Simulation: https://www.metabunk.org/gimbal/
| heavyset_go wrote:
| Mick West has consistently put out the best videos examining
| the UAP phenomenon.
| LargoLasskhyfv wrote:
| In https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangar_18_(film) !
| orbital-decay wrote:
| Aliens just seem to love the USA, don't they? Just like giant
| prehistoric sea monsters seem to love Japan. It's totally not a
| cover-up for another black project.
| tru3_power wrote:
| What about the Middle East sighting nasa publicly spoke about?
| haswell wrote:
| FTA:
|
| > _"Retrievals of this kind are not limited to the United
| States. This is a global phenomenon, and yet a global solution
| continues to elude us."_
| stonepresto wrote:
| The USA loves aliens. And money. And my money is on this guy
| being a grifter.
| kypro wrote:
| The only thing aliens love more than the USA is to troll
| fighter pilots and military bases. Somehow despite all of the
| cameras and tracking technology these vehicles and locations
| have, the aliens still manage to avoid being caught on camera
| and only make their appearance obvious to a few first-hand
| observers.
| crazygringo wrote:
| Culturally, Godzilla in Japan very much came out of the fear of
| nuclear weapons and radiation post-Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- a
| monster awakened and empowered by nuclear weapons [1].
|
| I've never been super clear on what the cultural reason for
| aliens <-> USA is though. Although I suppose it's different in
| that Godzilla was an intentional fictional creation, while the
| fascination with aliens hopes they're actually real.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godzilla
| krapp wrote:
| There have been reports of aliens, alien crashes and
| recovery, etc. all over the world[0]. The reason it's
| primarily seen as an American phenomenon is that the whole
| culture and mythos originated in the US, first in the late
| 1940s with the Kenneth Arnold sighting[0] (where the term
| "flying saucer" originated) and later Close Encounters of the
| Third Kind and Whitley Streiber's Communion codified the
| "grey alien/abduction" motif (although there were prior
| stories like the Pascagoula abduction, notable for the aliens
| described as looking nothing like greys) and of course the
| X-Files. The rest of the world likely absorbed the UFO
| archetype through cultural osmosis. Also Americans simply
| aren't going to be aware of UFO reports from other countries
| unless they go out of their way to look for them.
|
| [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanfretta_UFO_Incident
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant%C3%B4nio_Vilas-Boas
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendlesham_Forest_incident
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varginha_UFO_incident
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Air_Lines_Cargo_Flight_1.
| ..
|
| [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Arnold_UFO_sighting
|
| [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascagoula_Abduction
| paulddraper wrote:
| Or maybe the USA has observed them more.
| thatjoeoverthr wrote:
| Supposing (for sake of argument) they're real, Americans' broad
| deployment of advanced avionics could mean we're simply more
| likely to detect them. Secondly, cultural factors could
| increase risk of leaks, compared to Russian and Chinese
| detections. Third, tight control of Russian and Chinese media
| can suppress any serious discourse. That's enough to give an
| impression that UFO encounters are an American thing.
| esprehn wrote:
| You might appreciate Superman Red Son which explores what could
| have happened if Kal-El landed on a Ukrainian farm instead of
| Kansas. It's obviously got bias but it's fun to think about
| what happens if all the hero "stuff" didn't happen in the US.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman:_Red_Son
| Krasnol wrote:
| I could totally imagine a Ukrainian farmer pulling a UFO with
| his tractor on TicToc.
| Madhouse61 wrote:
| Off topic but somewhat related... As of late, I've really
| enjoyed watching FPV racing drone footage on YouTube. And it's
| made wonder - if commercial drones currently on the market are
| capable of this:
|
| https://youtube.com/shorts/mMmBC2nwcjY?feature=share3
|
| What do you get when you have a multi-billion dollar defense
| budget and some of the best engineers on the planet?
| zakki wrote:
| An UFO?
| incrudible wrote:
| > What do you get when you have a multi-billion dollar
| defense budget and some of the best engineers on the planet?
|
| A huge waste.
| moomoo11 wrote:
| If I came across a planet of smart monkeys and one monkey state
| had the most baddest mfers with the most insane tech and
| research, I'd want to learn about them.
|
| Everyone's already encountered the starting conditions in most
| other countries. US is the only one winning Civilization Earth.
| I'm a naturalized US citizen, for example. Could have ended up
| anywhere but it's best here in terms of opportunity and making
| new stuff.
| robofanatic wrote:
| lol ... you are assuming aliens think like humans. Its almost
| impossible to tell what aliens consider "baddest mfers" or
| "insane tech and research".
| adventured wrote:
| The most advanced tech and research, as an overall, would
| be trivial for an advanced alien to decide. And the US has
| been leading in those categories for 80 years at least.
|
| The notion that it's impossible to figure out whether an
| advanced alien would think Afghanistan or the US have more
| advanced tech/research/science, is absurd. And if you can
| make that distinction, you can keep going.
| SturgeonsLaw wrote:
| Colonists with muskets and cannons didn't care which
| tribe had the best bows and spears
| zakki wrote:
| I thought alien is looking for resources. They don't care
| with the technology because they know they are more
| advanced.
| marci wrote:
| For a species advanced enough for trivially navigating
| the universe, the difference between the US and
| Afghanistan would be trivial. If they are more in the
| individuality side of thing (in contrast to hive mind),
| the dumbest of their lot would probably be smarter than
| the smartest person we can find here, probably looking at
| us the way we look at other intelligent species.
|
| To measure us, would they look at the capacity to produce
| tech or consume tech (they would probably be more
| interested in East-Asia than North-America)?
|
| If they look at introducing themselves and communicate
| peacefully, what metrics would they look at to determine
| what society they want to deal with?
|
| If they look for dominance, once again they would hit
| where we produce tech, and hit our means of
| communication, which are worldwide.
| tazjin wrote:
| Satirical posts on HN have a whole different flavour to them!
| moomoo11 wrote:
| The truth is out there. Somewhere in the middle.
| woodruffw wrote:
| To an alien without our particular brand of 21st century
| capital ethics, I'm not sure that the US _is_ winning
| Civilization Earth.
| giantg2 wrote:
| It likely would be the biggest threat given the weapons
| tech though. You generally want to study the things that
| pose the biggest threat for self preservation.
| gtop3 wrote:
| This is highly speculative on both of our parts. I do
| think it's presumptuous to assume we'd be a threat to an
| entity that traveled >4ly. It sounds a lot like picking
| which classical civilization to study based on how strong
| their bows are when you are traveling in a stealth
| bomber.
| giantg2 wrote:
| "I do think it's presumptuous to assume we'd be a threat"
|
| You don't have to _be_ a threat, just appear as the
| biggest _possible_ one.
|
| "based on how strong their bows are when you are
| traveling in a stealth bomber."
|
| One has to know what a bow is and that they only have
| bows to come to that summary conclusion. If you have no
| knowledge of the capabilities, caution is warranted -
| whether we're talking about civilizations or a new
| species of spider.
| woodruffw wrote:
| You'd think that would go to the country or countries
| with tenuous chains of custody over their nuclear
| weapons, not the US.
|
| (I'm saying that mostly for the sake of argument, not
| because I think your reasoning is incorrect.)
| dahwolf wrote:
| You think extraterrestrial life is impressed with ad tech? If
| anything, they'd land in Veldhoven.
| netfortius wrote:
| Assuming they don't check Florida first.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| > _If I came across a planet of smart monkeys and one monkey
| state had the most baddest mfers with the most insane tech
| and research, I'd want to learn about them._
|
| Sounds like they'd care more about China/South
| Korea/Japan/Taiwan/etc then.
| HL33tibCe7 wrote:
| Not really, most great tech originates in the US. China etc
| are good at copying. I know that's an unfashionable
| statement, but let's do away with this false modesty for
| once
|
| Btw I'm not from the US.
| VirusNewbie wrote:
| > China/South Korea/Japan/Taiwan/etc then.
|
| Well, if they care about software, all of the above have
| inferior software compared to the US.
| [deleted]
| merek wrote:
| Sounds like an internet connection would suffice.
| orbital-decay wrote:
| _" The notion of invasions by aliens was a projection of the
| aggressive traits of the predatory, barely civilized ape-man.
| If he himself willingly did unto others as he would rather
| not be done by, then he pictured the Advanced Civilization on
| much the same principle. Flotillas of galactic battleships
| were supposed to fall upon unsuspecting little planets, to
| lay hands on the local dollars, diamonds, chocolates, and, of
| course, beautiful women -- for whom aliens had about as much
| use as we did for female crocodiles."_
| finexplained wrote:
| The deltas between the military/technology of the worlds top
| economies might not even be noteworthy to a species capable
| of interstellar travel. From there perspective we might just
| all look the same.
| [deleted]
| krapp wrote:
| >US is the only one winning Civilization Earth.
|
| I don't know. I feel like the countries without constant gun
| violence, where the government is actually capable of passing
| legislation, where the people actually accept that they live
| in a _society_ with some acknowledgement of social
| responsibilities, and can access healthcare and education
| without incurring a lifetime of crippling debt, are currently
| winning at civilization a bit harder.
|
| Being the richest and the most capable at propaganda and
| world-ending violence isn't the same as being the most
| civilized.
| kelnos wrote:
| I guess it depends on how you define "winning". I like your
| definition and analysis better, but some people...
| arcticbull wrote:
| > US is the only one winning Civilization Earth.
|
| Depends what you mean by winning. Other countries have
| different priorities, for instance the health and welfare of
| the population over individual wealth. That doesn't make one
| right or wrong, but it really this reflects on your
| priorities more than anything else. And that's ok! I'm just
| saying it's subjective, not objective, and there's no reason
| to believe that some aliens would share your personal beliefs
| in re: superiority and therefore prioritize observations
| there.
| Dalewyn wrote:
| The US is winning (or has won and keeps on winning) the
| Conquer Victory, the Diplomacy Victory, and the Culture
| Victory.
|
| I think that's the main means of winning Civilization? Been
| years since I played one.
| arcticbull wrote:
| Last time I got nuked by Ghandi so it's hard to say.
| baron816 wrote:
| Could be the case that it was found in the Pacific, or by an
| allied country and handed over/"liberated".
| WalterBright wrote:
| https://qz.com/911990/the-cottingley-fairy-hoax-of-1917-is-a...
|
| 'nuff said
| mberning wrote:
| The MIC wants to juice defense spending again.
| zoogeny wrote:
| I saw an interview with this guy just yesterday. He didn't see
| anything himself. His claim is that some people, and he believes
| them to be trustworthy, confided in him and showed him some
| documents. So, at best his testimony is hearsay.
|
| All of this stuff reeks of some kind of psyop. My belief is that
| for some reason, the US government used psychology tests to
| identify a select few people who naturally "want to believe".
| These individuals would take vague evidence and through their own
| nature would exaggerate and fill in the blanks. They then nudged
| those individuals with carefully curated credible fake evidence.
| Then they just sat back and waited for a few of those guys to
| "leak" the information.
| transducers wrote:
| I share the opinion that it is psyop and it is a very long
| running project. At one level it is a nice psyop _platform_ -
| like Star Trek for the psychological warfare professionals.
| Over the years they have influenced American thought about the
| government to a great degree. X-Files. For example, most
| Americans, and this "whistleblower" here, now accept that
| elements in the US government are operating entirely outside of
| the overview and control of the government, where the executive
| and legislature do not have "the clearance" to be informed
| about it.
|
| Emotionally it is also slowly preparing humanity for the
| possibility of a confrontation with a power that we possibly
| _can not resist and must obey_. Aliens may turn out to have
| strong theological and sociological views that they want to
| share with us. This is more than just slowly boiling the
| constitutional frog in the cauldron of "national security".
| Somewhat /g more far fetched but definitely one reason to have
| ex intelligence grandees from Mosad and CIA (and now this man)
| come and tell us all about aliens in our midst.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| Wait, that David Grusch guy never saw those stuffa despite that
| he led the analysis? This is weird. How can you do analysis
| without seeing the real thing?
| heavyset_go wrote:
| > _I saw an interview with this guy just yesterday. He didn 't
| see anything himself. His claim is that some people, and he
| believes them to be trustworthy, confided in him and showed him
| some documents. So, at best his testimony is hearsay._
|
| This is the same MO as Stephen Greer's grift about the same
| thing. Greer claims that he was given access to classified
| documents and information that say the government is hiding
| their knowledge of, and interactions with, aliens and UFOs.
| fnordsensei wrote:
| To what end?
| GartzenDeHaes wrote:
| Is it conspiracy theory time?
|
| "... the conspiracy theory Project Blue Beam, which concerns
| an alleged plot to facilitate a totalitarian world government
| by destroying traditional religions and replacing them with a
| new-age belief system using NASA technology."
| VincentEvans wrote:
| Take my money
| typeofhuman wrote:
| More funding from Congress.
| paulddraper wrote:
| I thought this was obvious...distract from the lizard people.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| It's a conspiracy theory that exalts the government/military
| and a narrative that they control. Why wouldn't you want
| skeptical populations thinking that they can trust you, that
| you're skilled and competent, and for whom you can use slight
| of hand to easily influence and distract?
|
| US adversaries can easily turn their drones into a panic when
| they fly in US airspace, and I believe that the instances
| where actual drones are involved, those are attempts at
| adversaries to surveil our military and government and to
| scare the populace. That's to say adversarial drones have an
| additional use as psyops weapons against civilians and
| military members. Being able to send whatever you want into
| US airspace and the US being unable to do anything about it
| can be perceived as being threatening and scary.
|
| A counter narrative to that can involving some UFO/alien
| mystery can quell panic and instead foster wonder and
| distraction.
| api wrote:
| Some speculations:
|
| To spook enemies of the US and create a mystical aura of
| superiority around the US military and its capabilities.
| They're literally creating the impression that the US
| military has technology beyond the "Clarke threshold." (The
| Clarke threshold refers to Arthur C. Clarke's maxim that "any
| sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
| magic.")
|
| To shake out moles, spies, and unreliable people / leakers.
|
| As a cover for very terrestrial extremely advanced technology
| such as hypersonic weapons, drones, laser and directed energy
| weapons, etc.
|
| To repeatedly float the idea of "alien disclosure" and then
| dash everyone's hopes in order to discredit the idea of
| extraterrestrial life and visitation. Why? Maybe they're
| concerned that we will eventually detect aliens and they want
| to blunt the cultural impact by making the public skeptical.
| Maybe they _actually do_ have evidence of aliens (but maybe
| less sexy than crashed UFO parts) and want to keep it quiet,
| so they want the topic to be discredited and marginalized.
| Maybe there 's some ideology at play like religious
| fundamentalism. Why knows.
| afpx wrote:
| the US military have been caught off guard several times
| with newer tech, showing that they're actually well behind
| the curve. I don't think there's much evidence that they
| have any advanced tech.
| api wrote:
| They probably both have advanced technology _and_ are
| caught off guard by other peoples ' advanced technology.
| With China we are already back in a multipolar world.
| hervature wrote:
| Why would the organization that would be expected to protect
| our skies want to make people believe there is something to
| protect our skies?
| TheSpiceIsLife wrote:
| Demonstration of psyops capabilities; entertainment.
| zoogeny wrote:
| I have no idea on the specifics for this particular
| operation, but in the general case [1] The
| purpose of United States psychological operations is to
| induce or reinforce behavior perceived to be favorable to
| U.S. objectives.
|
| In the context of UFOs, UAPs or whatever ... some
| possibilities are to hide advanced defense programs or to
| confuse potential enemy intelligence efforts. In fact, for an
| operation like this I would guess there are probably a dozen
| strategic objectives and not just one.
|
| 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_operations_(Un
| it...
| bragr wrote:
| Why does it have to be a conspiracy? Some small but significant
| portion of the population is mentally ill, and it seems likely
| few would hear a joke ("we keep the alien space ships through
| that door, I'd show you but I'd have to kill you"), take it way
| too literally, and it becomes the focus of their mental
| illness. That seems not only possible but probable given the
| size the military industrial complex.
| xref wrote:
| > likely few would hear a joke... take it way too
| literally...
|
| This is the premise of about half of _I Think You Should
| Leave_ skits
| quickthrowman wrote:
| > All of this stuff reeks of some kind pf psyop.
|
| In this case, I agree. I usually try to avoid conspiratorial
| thinking and conspiracy theories, but the DoD and related
| agencies have been putting out all kinds of information about
| UFOs in the past few years. My question is: why? The DoD isn't
| known for their public relations.
|
| My best speculative guess is that they're claiming they've
| found alien craft and exotic alien materials because the US is
| testing aircraft that appear alien with exotic materials and
| don't want other nation states to assume it is even terrestrial
| so they don't attempt to replicate the technology.
|
| There must be a reason behind the UFO media blitz that has
| happened lately, it's not like they're releasing the info to
| keep the public informed. Anyone have other ideas? It could be
| grifters looking to sell a story, mentally ill people
| misunderstanding jokes or inventing things out of whole cloth,
| etc.
|
| P.S. I believe intelligent life may exist elsewhere in the
| universe, but that we've never been visited and will never be
| visited due to the distances involved.
| jameshart wrote:
| "The DoD isn't known for their public relations"
|
| https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/43168/top-
| gun-2s-exten...
|
| The DoD got Tom Cruise to _pay them_ to make a 2hr 10m ad,
| and then audiences paid $1.5bn at the box office to watch it.
|
| The DoD is _amazing_ at PR.
| bagels wrote:
| But who is the messaging intended for? Foreign military
| intelligence agencies can draw the same conclusions, that
| this is some kind of misdirection, and that it's more likely
| a cover for US or Chinese weapons tech, they're not dumb.
| quickthrowman wrote:
| You make a very good point, I'm going to stick with the
| grifter/liar/mentally ill thesis instead.
| onetimeusename wrote:
| One theory is that a lot of the buzz is just some former
| intel officers like Luis Elizondo of To the Stars trying to
| get donations. Grusch happens to be a former intel officer.
| Who knows? maybe they are disgruntled or want to cash in on
| their former jobs. Although Grusch does not appear to be
| involved with an NGO that does this kind of thing, maybe he
| will release a book soon? This is speculation.
|
| Another is that maybe we are in something of a Cold War right
| now, as predicated by the weather balloon incident, but the
| USG wants to keep it secret. If people spot UAPs there is a
| counter narrative now about aliens that drowns out talk of
| war. It seems like knowing we were being spied on could cause
| reactions the government would rather not deal with.
|
| et cetera...
| ivoras wrote:
| Or is this another instance of "UFOs appear when we are close to
| a nuclear crysis"?
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| I'm trying to think of any sci-fi stories where the aliens are
| lost tourists or similar. They are usually presumed to be
| scientists or government representatives checking out Earth
| and/or humankind.
|
| Maybe ET? -- I don't think that's explained? It's been a lot of
| years since I saw it.
|
| The reality is that the government is interested in unexplained
| phenomenon primarily for security reasons. That statement does
| not say nor imply "Belief in aliens means you're a nutter!" I
| just get really tired of people acting like "They study this
| stuff because they know there really are aliens visiting Earth!"
| generalizations wrote:
| That sounds like Transition, by Ian Banks.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| Predator?
|
| Hunting tourism is a thing.
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| OMG. I can't believe I didn't think of that.
| shrimp_emoji wrote:
| Like Twoflower from the other side of the Discworld, an "in
| sewer ants" agent on vacation, visiting a medieval society.
|
| Zogg from Betelgeuse?
|
| Invader Zim?
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| I'm not familiar with those. Thanks.
| ancientworldnow wrote:
| Roadside Picnic, the inspiration behind Stalker, has aliens
| using Earth much like a family on a long drive might pull over
| for a scenic picnic site.
| asimovfan wrote:
| They actually just shoot stuff in the direction of the earth
| inadvertently if i recall correctly, they dont actually visit
| huijzer wrote:
| What about the US military pretending to see UFO's instead of
| admitting they have their own stealth airplanes and drones?
|
| This suggestion was made at the recent Required podcast about
| Lockheed Martin.
| thoughtstheseus wrote:
| The sensor apparatus needed to "find" these UFOs is the same as
| the one needed for missile and drone defense.
| geraldwhen wrote:
| It's exactly this. It's not just aircraft, either, but aircraft
| designed to disrupt other aircraft's instrumentation.
|
| There is a white hat team somewhere in the DoD whose only job
| is to develop technology and software to make other aviation
| software instrumentation fail or perform incorrectly. It would
| be absurd if this were NOT the case.
| DrBazza wrote:
| Never in human history have we had so many high quality cameras
| in the hands of so many people.
|
| And still no pictures of ufos. Or Bigfoot. Or Nessie.
| postalrat wrote:
| Anything that doesn't have an explanation is labeled a fake
| unless it's from an official source like the military.
| BasedAnon wrote:
| Actually we do have good pictures of Nessie, which is how
| figured out 'she' was actually just a whale penis
|
| Edit: apparently this is actually bs
| lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
| Serious question: are there any whale species which inhabit
| Loch Ness?
| uhtred wrote:
| there are some pretty convincing videos and photos of UFOs out
| there, the problem is when they are good enough to look real
| people call them fakes.
| pengaru wrote:
| Or when they're good enough to actually try identify objects,
| they're birthday balloons like the mylar batman one with its
| very distinctive profile.
| simmerup wrote:
| Apart from the ones released by the US military
| tmn wrote:
| I find this subject fascinating. As the article states, Navy
| pilots are on record as eye witnesses for this stuff, along with
| the various radar feeds, etc. I'm curious what HN thinks of the
| following:
|
| There are 3 comprehensive possibilities (correct me if you think
| differently):
|
| 1. These crafts are ET origin
|
| 2. These crafts are human origin (secrete military tech or
| similar)
|
| 3. This is a psyop
|
| Due to the supposed feeds and eye witness accounts, it seems
| infeasible there is a 'weather balloon' type explanation
|
| Any of these 3 possibilities is very interesting. I have my own
| take for what is most likely. But I'd like to hear thoughts of
| others.
| clashmoore wrote:
| Are the Navy pilots actual eye witnesses to seeing these crafts
| or are they eye witnesses to whatever is electronically
| displayed to their HUDS/Helmets/lenses?
|
| It seems every video I've come across, it was all electronic so
| it has me thinking just a software error.
| whinenot wrote:
| How about cell phone video?[0]
|
| [0]https://www.dvidshub.net/video/843620/navy-2021-flyby-
| video
| black6 wrote:
| Every video I've seen, too, has been from some sort of
| electronic sensor. The US Navy was working on Project NEMESIS
| at least as far back as 2019, which sought to (and likely
| did) develop the means to spoof electronic signatures.
| [deleted]
| heavyset_go wrote:
| > _As the article states, Navy pilots are on record as eye
| witnesses for this stuff, along with the various radar feeds,
| etc._
|
| Watch the introduction to the 4 hour UAP panel that NASA hosted
| a few days ago[1], they address this.
|
| According to NASA, even highly trained and experienced pilots
| can easily be fooled, and often reported UAPs are artifacts of
| the technology that detects them, or are indeed things like
| weather balloons. For example, NASA even used the example of
| Navy pilots being fooled by a procession of commercial
| airplanes queueing to land at an airport 40+ miles away from
| their base.
|
| They also emphasize that radar, detection systems, etc are not
| scientific instruments that are suitable for the detection or
| analysis of this phenomenon. They emphasize that the technology
| that the Navy et al. use are strictly optimized for
| defensive/offensive interception of conventional weapons.
| That's to say that they're calibrated for war and not for
| accurate scientific observation.
|
| Going back to the procession of airplanes waiting to land,
| according to the instruments available to pilots and their own
| observations, those airplanes were doing things that were
| impossible to do without bending the laws of physics. Yet all
| they were were just a bunch of airplanes doing what all
| airplanes do.
|
| > _Due to the supposed feeds and eye witness accounts, it seems
| infeasible there is a 'weather balloon' type explanation_
|
| Pilots and their system are fallible, you'd have to assume some
| argument from authority to believe otherwise, which is why I
| think the military loves this conspiracy theory. It shifts
| criticism or suspicion of government and power to a narrative
| that they control and that inflates the military's competence
| and abilities, and assumes that the military is looking out for
| us and willing to tell us the truth.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQo08JRY0iM
| notatoad wrote:
| why is it always the navy pilots that always see the aliens,
| and not the commercial pilots. is it because navy pilots are
| more likely to be flying at some combination of high speed, bad
| weather conditions, or darkness that tends to make ordinary
| occurrences look more mysterious?
| haswell wrote:
| There have been reports from commercial pilots in the past
| few years as well.
|
| That aside, it could make logical sense that the military is
| seeing these more often for a few reasons:
|
| - The nature of their missions, flight speed, equipment, and
| flexibility to investigate further
|
| - If it's a terrestrial adversary, it makes sense that they'd
| fuck with military
|
| - If it's ET, it makes sense that they'd pay more attention
| to military jets than passenger jets if it's some kind of
| recon
| whinenot wrote:
| Commercial pilots don't get scrambled to get eyes on radar
| anomalies in the middle of nowhere. They get paid to go from
| point A to point B using a pre-determined amount of fuel.
| detrites wrote:
| Because commercial pilots are in control of aircraft flying
| over densely populated areas, and often responsible for the
| lives of hundreds on board. A navy pilot typically just has
| the expensive aircraft and is somewhat expected to be crazy.
|
| So, if a commercial pilot does see such things, they'd be far
| less likely to report them, as it may well ruin their career.
| Navy pilots, on the other hand may well get some commendation
| for identifying an unusual, or anomalous thing (enemy tech?).
| lisasays wrote:
| 4. A bunch of well-fed military-industrial complex types, some
| lying, some naive and sincerely deluded -- stovepiping and
| embellishing each other's BS as usual.
| krapp wrote:
| 4. Misinterpretation and/or equipment malfunction and/or
| hoaxes.
|
| A few probably are secret military tech (nothing like
| antigravity, but I think most people - even in the military -
| probably don't have a good grasp of what true cutting edge
| technology is capable of,) but I think there are UFO true
| believers within the government trying to stir up publicity for
| funding[0]. To me that is the most intriguing, and plausible,
| explanation for a lot of this.
|
| Because remember we _just_ went through this with the Chinese
| balloon shit. "Sources" in the government making the same
| claims. Rumors about craft defying physics. But it all turned
| out to be balloons and paranoia and hype.
|
| It's never aliens. It's _never_ aliens.
|
| [0]https://nypost.com/2023/03/21/ufo-believing-pentagon-
| bosses-...
| petilon wrote:
| 4. Time-traveling humans from the future. Don't discount that
| possibility!
| wizofaus wrote:
| I do. If it were possible we'd surely see them everywhere.
| Even if time travel was a one-way trip there's enough future
| billions of us that there'd be massive numbers with the sort
| of incurable fascination seth the past that they'd be
| motivated to travel back and see what it was like. Doesn't
| really seem any more or less likely than alien intelligence
| at any rate.
| petilon wrote:
| Time traveling humans is more likely for the following
| reason: It requires only one thing: worm hole or some other
| yet-to-be-invented mechanism for traveling to the past. For
| this to be alien intelligence, two things are required:
| First alien intelligence has to exist, and second, they too
| need a mechanism for speedy travel, to travel to another
| galaxy such that they can reach the destination within an
| individual alien's lifetime.
| kalkaran wrote:
| And they have to want to
| spywaregorilla wrote:
| describing something as yet-to-be-invented to
| contextually imply that it exists and will be invented is
| a strange proposition
| wizofaus wrote:
| I'm probably more positive alien intelligence exists than
| I am that humanity will last long enough to discover such
| a mechanism. To be clear, I'd say both are quite likely -
| I just very much doubt the mechanism actually exists.
| tzs wrote:
| That reminds me of an amusing story I read in Analog
| several years ago. I don't remember the name or author.
|
| It was about the first time travel trip. The team that
| developed the first time machine decided to send the first
| traveler to visit Shakespeare, figuring that Shakespeare
| had a flexible enough mind to not be freaked out by the
| visit.
|
| When the traveler got to Shakespeare they were right that
| he did not freak out. In fact he took it entirely in
| stride. The time traveler was a little confused that
| Shakespeare was taking it so well. Shakespeare even asked
| what gift the time traveler had brought, saying that "all
| the early ones brought gifts".
|
| The time traveler had in fact brought a gift--a nicely
| bound volume of Shakespeare's collected works. Shakespeare
| looked at it, said something about maybe he could sell the
| binding, then said probably not, and tossed it on a pile of
| books, which the traveler realized was a pile of similar
| books.
|
| Shakespeare noticed that the traveler was now throughly
| confused and realized that the traveler was in fact one of
| the very earliest, and explained that most of early
| travelers brought books.
|
| The traveler was still confused over the idea that
| Shakespeare had met other time travelers, saying "but I'm
| the first time traveler!". Shakespeare told him that he may
| have been the first to leave, but he certainly wasn't the
| first to arrive, and said at some stages in his life he was
| being visiting frequently by time travelers, which was
| actually annoying--although not as annoying as it was for
| Jesus, who Shakespeare says another time traveler decided
| to introduce them once.
|
| At that point numerous other time travelers started
| arriving. They were reporters from throughout the timeline
| popping in to try to get an interview with the first time
| traveler. The first time traveller is now close to
| completely losing it, and Shakespeare says he can handle it
| and steps in to act as a press agent for the first time
| traveler.
|
| If backwards time travel turns out to possible my guess is
| that there will be some limitation that prevents scenarios
| like the one in that story from happening. My guess is
| either (1) the time machine will only be able to go back to
| when it was created (think of it like going back to a save
| point in a game), or (2) when a time machine goes back to
| some point in spacetime it creates some sort of exclusion
| zone in a region around that point that precludes any other
| time machine from arrive at a point in that exclusion zone.
| detrites wrote:
| Maybe every instance of time travel the universe splits in
| two, to prevent all the causal loop paradoxes etc?
|
| Ie, time is always a tree branching, and traveling back in
| time doesn't change that?
| WalterBright wrote:
| The eye and your brain are easily fooled. So are instruments.
| worik wrote:
| 4. It is optical illusions
| shrimpx wrote:
| After taking the pilots' accounts on face value, this analysis
| gave me new insight:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsEjV8DdSbs
|
| The pilots claim they saw a flying saucer that was rotating in
| weird ways, and provide a grainy video that's kind of
| convincing. The analysis proves it was lens flare.
|
| There are additional debunked UAP videos released by the
| military, including one that is lens bokeh around starlight,
| which is debunked by showing the configuration of the "triangle
| UAPs" matches the positions of stars at that time, including
| additional evidence that the camera used on those ships has
| triangle aperture.
|
| This tells me there's a chance of a disappointing but realistic
| option 4: military incompetence. They take these videos, they
| don't know what they are, so they go into some data pipeline
| and categorized as UAP. Then people/congress become aware that
| there are "UAP videos", and we go through this declassification
| song and dance, only to get these bokeh and lens flare videos,
| that the military themselves do not know they are bokeh/lens
| flare, and they have to find out about it on YouTube.
|
| Giving the military more benefit of the doubt, the likely
| option is 3: psyop. They spread UAP rumors to confuse
| adversaries, knowing these UAP videos they have are BS. When
| they release these easily debunked videos, the adversaries
| could be further confused, still not knowing what they _really_
| have.
| 2-718-281-828 wrote:
| for context: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34746738
| kipchak wrote:
| It could also be some combination of the three, for example a
| craft that is human origin but derived from ET bits being
| presented in a pysop manner for some reason. The Navy's claimed
| operable AGRAV/room temperature superconductor patents and
| Salvadore Pais[1] add another layer of huh to the whole thing.
|
| [1]https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/29232/navys-
| advanced-a...
| Avshalom wrote:
| N+1. They're 25 and they've just popped some amphetamine (now
| modafinil) to get them through the hangover from getting shit
| faced on shipboard moonshine last night.
| jredwards wrote:
| This reminds me of the "Liar, Lunatic, or Lord" argument that
| religious people use regarding Jesus. Let's not railroad the
| options, here. There's room for nuance (like combinations or,
| frankly, just misunderstandings).
| spywaregorilla wrote:
| what kind of nuanced compromise exists that does not paint
| jesus as a liar, lunatic, or lord exclusively?
| jredwards wrote:
| That he believed a falsehood? Does that make him a lunatic?
| Would that not necessarily make billions of people
| lunatics?
| yellow_lead wrote:
| What about
|
| 4. A collection of shadows, mistakes, pilot fatigue, and
| instrument malfunction?
| belval wrote:
| Not really into UFOs myself, but that's not what the article
| (the whistleblower) is claiming:
|
| > "We are not talking about prosaic origins or identities,"
| Grusch said. "The material includes intact and partially
| intact vehicles."
|
| There is a difference between claiming to have seen the
| modern equivalent of the Loch Ness monster and saying "they
| have its body in a hangar".
| spywaregorilla wrote:
| Yeah. For example, in the Loch Ness example, they're at
| least claiming to have seen it.
| [deleted]
| wizofaus wrote:
| I'd even suggest a good percentage of reports are either
| deliberate hoaxes themselves or genuine reports of hoaxes
| carried out by others. If not hoaxes, then deliberate
| misreporting to cover up worse truths. Ultimately almost any
| other such explanation is vastly more likely than advanced
| alien species having crossed the galaxies (undetected) to
| visit us only to crash land on our little ball of rock.
| v0idzer0 wrote:
| Too coincidental for pilot fatigue/shadows AND instrument
| malfunction to always happen at the same time in all of these
| cases. There are hundreds of reported instances in the past
| few years. This is simply not a serious explanation.
| SonicScrub wrote:
| Strongly disagree. The sheer number of flight hours
| performed by all the world's professional pilots multiplied
| by the average percentage of a flight that a pilot could be
| considered to be "fatigued", multiplied by the odds of a
| cosmetic/minor sensor blip occuring is still an
| astronomically large number. That confluence of events
| probably happens quite regularity. This can be acendotealy
| verified hanging out at any general aviation flight club,
| and asking pilots about the times they got temporarily
| confused by some aerial phenomenon that turned out to be a
| strange reflection off a cloud. Happens literally all the
| time.
| Eji1700 wrote:
| You're missing 4, which is eye witnesses are reading
| instruments wrong.
|
| "Yes I saw it move impossible in the camera"
|
| "Yep you've got a speck on your camera. "
|
| This stuff happens all the time mixed with "yeah crazy visual
| stuff happens"
|
| When the alternative is that an unfathomable amount of energy
| was used to cross a mind boggling amount of space, you need a
| very bullet proof argument
| LinuxBender wrote:
| Perhaps number 5 could be partial hypoxia leading to
| hallucinations and delusions _as it pertains to pilots_. I
| would not be surprised if a pilot swore they saw a Klingon
| bird of prey.
| jackmott wrote:
| [dead]
| JPLeRouzic wrote:
| * From another univers (in multivers)
|
| * From deep in Oceans
|
| * From subterranean
|
| * From millions of years in past
|
| * From millions of years in future
| twic wrote:
| * From hell (the Operation Trojan Horse theory)
|
| Functionally, all of these can be classified under the first
| option, "ET origin", because they all involve the revelation
| that some advanced intelligence unknown to the mass of
| humanity is active on Earth.
|
| But there is a fourth:
|
| * These craft are of natural origin
|
| Some very strange analogue of St Elmo's Fire which results in
| the formation of metallic spheres of unknown composition in
| the vicinity of jet fighters.
| JPLeRouzic wrote:
| > " _These craft are of natural origin. Some very strange
| analogue of St Elmo 's Fire_"
|
| " _we humans are property of some more highly evolved
| beings that live in a realm that we cannot see. Those
| invisible beings are immaterial: they are made of energy
| and Russell compares them to ball lightning._ "
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinister_Barrier
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| > Navy pilots are on record as eye witnesses for this stuff
|
| Yeah!
|
| I used to work with someone who was a Marine F/A-18 weapons
| officer (back seat guy; I may have the aircraft type wrong). He
| knew everything there was to know about air combat & ground
| attack, but outside that, he was a complete moron. I mean, he
| seriously believed that we stole aircraft technology from
| aliens, because "there is no way that humans are that smart."
|
| Let's just say I have my doubts.
| cozzyd wrote:
| I'd say a combination of 2 and 3 is most likely, if it's not
| just a complete fabrication/mirage/misunderstanding (which is
| maybe even more likely...)
| nso wrote:
| 4. Dust, misidentifications, radar ghosts. David Grunch is a
| liar.
| JPLeRouzic wrote:
| David Charles Grusch
| TrainedMonkey wrote:
| Probably a combination of 2 & 3 along with weird natural
| phenomena + the fact that human brains run on error prone
| wetware, are full of hacks, and make shit up all the time...
|
| In short, given prevalence of aliens in popular culture +
| brains being predictive machines + existence of things that are
| hard to explain = it would be far more surprising if there
| weren't people claiming aliens.
|
| Note 1: actual aliens would be really exciting, but Occam's
| Razor...
| andrewstuart wrote:
| Science fiction, literally.
| gumballindie wrote:
| Dont get my hopes high. I have the feeling it will be a
| disappointment. Also why would aliens only visit the us? Surely
| other countries would be in possession of alien tech if the us
| was.
| v0idzer0 wrote:
| The article states they happen all over the world and the
| whistleblower suggests other nations do have them. Give it a
| read!
| pie420 wrote:
| Because the internet and everything you use every day was
| invented in america, the waterways are controlled by american
| aircraft carriers, the moon is american, the silicon you use is
| made in the american pseudo-colonies of japan, south korea, and
| taipei. America is the invisible roman empire, and the american
| corporate oligarchy is Caesar. Weapons systems generations
| ahead of the competition. All trade done in dollars, all
| entertainment and science conducted in english. All data flows
| through american megacorps that answer only to the american
| oligarch. Pure hegemony so strong most people aren't aware that
| it exists.
| jossclimb wrote:
| It's for the same reason when you find yourself being forced to
| enter a 'state' on a website address form , yet you're not from
| the US.
| gumballindie wrote:
| Most likely. It find it funny when aliens in movies almost
| always land in the us. It may be the world's most awesome
| country, but wouldnt at least some of these aliens be curious
| about german beer or south korean food?
| mywittyname wrote:
| You can clearly see the electric lights of population
| centers from space. If aliens were doing surveillance,
| they'd probably stick to the darker spots.
|
| After all, out planet is surrounded by artificial
| satellites, and we make no attempt to hide them. So clearly
| some humans are capable of putting things into orbit, and
| those things could be weapons.
| Firmwarrior wrote:
| That's weird, when I watch Japanese TV shows a
| disproportionate amount of the aliens go to Japan
| krapp wrote:
| Countries besides the US also have states.
| ben_w wrote:
| My old country had several smaller countries nested inside
| it, but no states.
| kagevf wrote:
| South Africa?
| ben_w wrote:
| Teyrnas Unedig Prydain Fawr
| krapp wrote:
| Countries with states: Australia
| Austria Brazil Germany India
| Malaysia Mexico Micronesia
| Myanmar New Zealand Nigeria Palau
| South Sudan
| DrBazza wrote:
| Technology to fly light years. But not the technology to land
| on earth without crashing.
| LargoLasskhyfv wrote:
| Miscalculated lithobrake because of different atmosphere and
| gravity.
|
| Surprise!
| HWR_14 wrote:
| I don't believe that there are any alien vessels, intact or
| otherwise. But I would imagine that a superpower with global
| reach and a stealth program could (and would) gather craft
| before the countries where they were located knew they were
| there.
| gumballindie wrote:
| > I don't believe that there are any alien vessels, intact or
| otherwise.
|
| Me neither, but as the saying goes: "i want to believe".
| Guaranteed there's nothing more than a guy that's either
| crazy or marketing a book.
|
| > But I would imagine that a superpower with global reach and
| a stealth program could (and would) gather craft before the
| countries where they were located knew they were there.
|
| By traveling to china or russia and snatching ufos from right
| under their nose? I doubt it. I think if anything remotely
| alien would visit earth everyone would know.
| mywittyname wrote:
| Right, America has trouble retrieving it's own equipment
| when it is downed near (not in) adversarial territory.
| That's with the advantage of knowing exactly when and where
| the equipment went down and with the benefit of advanced
| planning for a potential recovery.
|
| There's no way they are suddenly so much more competent
| when the downed equipment is "alien." If this stuff is so
| easily tracked, then it's not so easily hidden from the
| public.
|
| And if this stuff went down in a smaller country, you can
| bet there are plenty of people out there ready and willing
| to pay for it just because. We have difficulty enough
| charging wealthy people with real crimes, much less putting
| them away for buying alien technology.
| [deleted]
| markus_zhang wrote:
| Maybe Afghanistan? OK this is sci fi materials...
| MSFT_Edging wrote:
| There's sightings all over, other countries are similarly
| secretive/in the dark.
| fintechie wrote:
| I guess if they can convince the populace that men can get
| pregnant they'll have no issue bringing some little green men to
| the show. Global IQ getting lower at an alarming pace.
| nessbot wrote:
| Since IQ is designed to be a normal distribution, isn't the
| average IQ the same (100) year after year?
| fintechie wrote:
| We've probably peaked in the western side of the world...
|
| https://phys.org/news/2023-03-online-iq-scores-century.html
| thekevan wrote:
| Am I missing something or is the only thing that makes this
| different than so many other "insider" claims is that this guy
| has a career history that implies he isn't just another crackpot
| spewing theories?
|
| It reads just like so many claims like we have heard in the past,
| but this time people think the guy is more reliable.
|
| It is pretty funny that the one of the people often quoted who
| backs up Grusch's claims is Jonathan _Grey_.
| (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2241801/)
|
| I'd love to think that alien contact is possible, but as I
| attempt to learn more and more about physics, travel approaching
| the speed of light, the mechanics that transformed us from a
| basic life form to a life form with a consciousness, it just seem
| incredibly unlikely sadly.
| hermitcrab wrote:
| Which is more likely?
|
| a) An alien civilization has overcome the massive problems of
| interstellar travel and is visiting us right now.
|
| or
|
| b) The people making these claims are wrong.
|
| While a) isn't impossible, b) seems so much more likely.
|
| Also if they have the technology to cross interstellar space,
| surely they have the technology not to be detected by us?
| postalrat wrote:
| c) An alien civilization can trivial visit Earth and has been
| for thousands of years.
|
| You make a lot of assumptions how difficult it wouldv be to
| visit and even why they would be here.
| hermitcrab wrote:
| I assume that interstellar travel is really difficult for
| any civilization. That assumption is based on my knowledge
| of physics (relativity in particular).
| tomatotomato37 wrote:
| Extend that too: a) An alien civilization has overcome the
| massive problems of interstellar travel and is able to visit
| in a manner that _doesn 't_ create a second sun in the sky
|
| Seriously people underestimate the ludicrous energies
| involved in near-c travel. Even with engines off at those
| speeds the interstellar dust undergoing nuclear fusion off
| your hull will give you away
| paulddraper wrote:
| But what if it's 0.5c travel?
|
| That's a massive difference from 0.99c travel
| Simon_O_Rourke wrote:
| I'm no body language expert, but I did notice him shaking his
| head when he says something to the (opposite) effect that "we
| categorically have non human craft".
|
| Games within games. Insiders playing credible dupes.
| sibeliuss wrote:
| > but as I attempt to learn more and more about physics, travel
| approaching the speed of light, the mechanics that transformed
| us from a basic life form to a life form with a consciousness,
| it just seem incredibly unlikely sadly
|
| As if humanity's knowledge circa 2023 is the end-all of things!
| oldstrangers wrote:
| "the mechanics that transformed us from a basic life form to a
| life form with a consciousness"
|
| If those mechanics are known I'd love to hear them.
| throwanem wrote:
| > this guy has a career history that implies he isn't just
| another crackpot spewing theories
|
| I love the optimism in assuming that being a crackpot and
| having a career in intelligence are incompatible!
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| He could have been driven to crackpottery also.
|
| Consider this hypothetical: A person in intelligence knows
| something you would rather didn't get out, but you suspect
| there's a chance they will leak it. Maybe they have a
| personality that leads you to believe they can't in good
| conscience keep that secret, or maybe you're just callous and
| paranoid, doesn't really make a difference.
|
| One thing you could do is convince them of something
| completely ridiculous that no one will take seriously. Even
| easier if there is a large existing community of nutters that
| already believe that (possibly you manufactured that too,
| just for such an occasion). Put on some little shows, make
| sure they see some documents they "weren't supposed to", and
| when they've bought into it enough have someone all but
| confirm it to them in person.
|
| Then, if they're in a leaking mood, they'll discredit
| themselves for you.
| johnea wrote:
| I always thought this was the point of alex jones...
|
| Some real conspiracies are revealed, but they're mixed in
| with so much super psycho that everything gets
| discredited...
| asfarley wrote:
| It's called a limited hangout
| Georgelemental wrote:
| I'm pretty sure there are documented, widely-recognized
| case of this happening. Can't remember the details, but I
| think it was an amateur radio operator that found a secret
| broadcasting station, and was thrown off the trail when
| said station decided to broadcast fake stuff about aliens.
| And another case where the government needed to test
| animals for radiation following a nuclear test, so secretly
| stole them from farms in a way that suggested UFO
| abduction?
|
| I can't remember where I read/heard this, but sure it is on
| the internet somewhere.
| ttpphd wrote:
| I cackled.
| erdos4d wrote:
| There is the fact that Grusch gave sworn testimony to congress
| on it, he's going to prison for perjury if he's lying. Doesn't
| prove it, but it's more than just saying it in an interview.
| clint wrote:
| He also could just be mentally ill and doesn't believe he's
| lying. It doesn't mean what he's saying is true.
| krapp wrote:
| People lie to Congress all the time without any consequences.
| That depends more on the political necessity of having a
| scapegoat/figure to tar and feather than the actual law.
| mostlysimilar wrote:
| > People lie to Congress all the time without any
| consequences.
|
| Examples?
| anon223345 wrote:
| Mark McGwire
| jjoonathan wrote:
| "does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions
| or hundreds of millions of Americans?" "No, sir."
| "It does not?" "Not wittingly. There are cases
| where they could inadvertently perhaps collect, but not
| wittingly."
|
| So, do people lie to Congress all the time? Not
| wittingly, but in the sense that this phrase means
| "absolutely yes, all the damn time."
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Citations:
|
| https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-
| way/2013/07/02/198118060...
|
| https://youtu.be/QwiUVUJmGjs
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/jun/06
| /ve...
| amanaplanacanal wrote:
| Does anybody _ever_ go to jail for lying to congress?
| kadoban wrote:
| https://www.propublica.org/article/five-trump-cabinet-
| member...
|
| There's many, many more.
| smolder wrote:
| Brett Kavanaugh when he said "boofing" meant farting.
| [deleted]
| seanw444 wrote:
| Darn. Guess I need to be distracted from Biden's corruption now.
| Darn you, diversion tactics!
| kgwxd wrote:
| Sounds like you were already distracted by someone else's
| diversion.
| jacknews wrote:
| Sounds like Grusch is upstanding, but I suspect he's been trolled
| by the rest of them.
|
| You can just imagine; "hey Eagle, the UFO guy's coming to ask
| about that UAP report, you know, the one where the IR tracker
| locked-on to a speck of dust. Let's mention the (nudge, hehe)
| black-ops alien testing site we saw when we went to file the
| report"
| gfodor wrote:
| You don't troll someone to the point of letting them go testify
| under oath to the IG.
| paulddraper wrote:
| Epic troll
| yeeeloit wrote:
| We, the general public, simply do not have enough information
| at this point to judge this man's testimony, or the evidence
| that he provided.
| 2-718-281-828 wrote:
| i like that option ;D
| 1970-01-01 wrote:
| Forensic evidence? No.
|
| 1080p 30fps video? No.
|
| High resolution photos? No.
|
| Any evidence to back up the extraordinary claims? No.
|
| Sorry, but you are crazy if you believe this.
| tiffanyh wrote:
| If true, I'm curious to know how the government even came into
| possession of such non-human aircraft.
|
| E.g.
|
| - did they shoot it down? (this seems to contradict the claims
| that the aircraft can perform unrealistic maneuvers like massive
| acceleration / extreme changes in vector)
|
| - did some random farmer stumble upon the craft? (then why didn't
| the farmer post photos of it online and/or speaking out about it)
|
| - where was it found and where is it today?
|
| Note: I'm not saying there isn't ET. But some first principle
| questions seems like they need to be answered before people jump
| to conclusions.
| generalizations wrote:
| Or it crashed of its own accord, but instead of a farmer
| finding it, they'd been tracking it carefully and got there
| first.
| 100pctremote wrote:
| Like an enemy weather balloon
| vlod wrote:
| Here's an interesting video clip of Lex interviewing Pilot Ryan
| Grave [0], ~10 months ago (~27 mins. Note: not full interview).
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT6av8ZFCks&t=184s
| beefman wrote:
| Aliens have never crashed here. Aliens have never even visited
| our solar system.
|
| The truth is more interesting: the galaxy is emptier than it
| should be.
| detrites wrote:
| Maybe it's emptier than it should be because that's how the
| universe is always made to appear to emergent civilisations at
| the dangerous and volatile point of evolution we presently find
| ourselves at?
| merpnderp wrote:
| If you look at all the crazy coincidences that were required
| for life to develop on Earth, it starts to make sense that
| we're alone. Single star in the system, need a big Jupiter to
| block space rocks, our target is a rocky planet close to star,
| but needs to be hit by an abnormally large moon right as the
| lithosphere is cooling, ripping out 1/3rd of it so that the
| planet can have giant continents barely covered with water part
| of the time, then submerged the rest of the time to the cadence
| of this moon, oh and has to be the right star type, and etc etc
| etc.
|
| If it takes something like all that for life to spontaneously
| erupt, we're likely alone.
| misterprime wrote:
| Beefman, could you tell us more about how you know this?
| soVeryTired wrote:
| The Drake equation? We can see the stars, we can see the
| planets (and there are _lots_ of them). We can infer the
| number of earth-like planets. So where 's all the intelligent
| life?
| orwin wrote:
| Does the drake equation takes into account the timeline
| earth-like planet have to be inhabitable to carbon-based
| lifeforms?
| bostonwalker wrote:
| I wouldn't go so far as to claim that we have hard evidence of
| aliens crashing here or visiting our solar system, but you're
| going completely the other way and making an extraordinary
| claim without evidence. Absence of evidence is not evidence of
| absence.
| FredPret wrote:
| I read somewhere that all of our radio signature would fade
| away to the point that it's indistinguishable from background
| noise within five lightyears.
|
| Plus, we've been around for ages and only briefly let out a
| bunch of radio waves. I image we might not even generate that
| many anymore.
|
| By that logic, you could easily image that the universe is
| teeming with intelligent life that happens to not have sent a
| powerful radio signal out here, or whose tech development
| timeline never included wide public radio signal broadcasting.
| [deleted]
| thedangler wrote:
| The fact of the matter is the implications if this is real. Which
| it probably is to a point. Free energy devices and instant travel
| would decimate the economy that keeps the elite in power.
|
| "We already have the means to travel among the stars, but these
| technologies are locked up in black projects and it would take an
| act of God to ever get them out to benefit humanity." -- Ben Rich
| CEO Lockheed Skunk Works
| mywittyname wrote:
| I would think the "wealthy elites" would be dying to get their
| hands on the tech so they can turn it into a product that
| generates even more wealth.
|
| Market forces are stronger than government forces.
| devwastaken wrote:
| Free energy is not real, you've been watching too much
| conspiracy material designed by said elites.
| dekhn wrote:
| well, gibbs free energy is real
| zamadatix wrote:
| Why would it decimate the economy and oust those in power when
| every other new advancement seems to grow the economy and
| concentrate wealth on those already able to invest in it?
| d1str0 wrote:
| Exactly. You don't think the US or whatever nation state
| would absolutely use these technologies to try and conquer
| the rest of the world or acquire power/money?
| [deleted]
| erulabs wrote:
| The "elite" who brings the world infinite power will be the
| most famous and remembered and respected human who ever lived,
| and will live immortal in the history books.
|
| Call me naive but I don't think the desire to keep the status
| quo is greater than the desire to be the literal savior.
| Gud wrote:
| The "elite" in many cases aren't part of the ruling class due
| to some intrinsic greatness, but because they were usually
| born into it.
| erdos4d wrote:
| Assuming this is legit, what makes you believe they understand
| anything about this tech? They might literally have been
| scratching their heads all this time with this stuff. We might
| simply not understand the physics by which it operates and have
| no ability to do anything with it except dust it off
| periodically and let another team of eggheads strike out. I
| can't think of any major technology we currently have which
| doesn't have a totally legit origin story and which the
| prevailing scientific and engineering ability of the time
| didn't enable, so I doubt any real advances have ever come out
| of this.
| postalrat wrote:
| We been studying biology for many years and can't figure it
| out. Cells are basically alien technology to us.
| minutillo wrote:
| The "source" of that Ben Rich quote is a MUFON article by Tom
| Keller, more amazing quotes:
| https://www.columbiatribune.com/story/opinion/editorials/201...
| ben_w wrote:
| > Free energy devices and instant travel would decimate the
| economy that keeps the elite in power.
|
| If free energy had that effect, electricity prices wouldn't
| sometimes go negative.
|
| Also, why would instant travel (at what resource cost?) be any
| worse than e.g. telepresence robots for humans and just-in-time
| delivery for goods?
| chasd00 wrote:
| Well, you could "instant travel" an IED into your political
| adversary's bedroom. That would be pretty bad.
| ben_w wrote:
| Can do that with a tube filled with any of a wide range of
| fuels and oxidisers, too.
| dogman144 wrote:
| Because to phrase it in a certain way - the final 10 yards of
| power are exerted in meatspace.
|
| You can video chat with dissidents around the world? Cool,
| the state can still kick in your door or shut off your ISP or
| shut off your cross-border financing at the ISP or..
|
| You can travel to join those dissidents and come back as you
| please, wherever whenever? Where can the State able to
| enforce final power there? It's much more limited.
| ben_w wrote:
| > Cool, the state can still kick in your door or shut off
| your ISP or shut off your cross-border financing at the ISP
| or..
|
| Or use a drone, hence why that's clearly not sufficient
| technology to undermine the Illuminati or whoever it is
| that's supposed to benefit from suppressing space magic
| rapid transit.
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