[HN Gopher] Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in Califo... ___________________________________________________________________ Mercedes beats Tesla to autonomous driving in California Author : belter Score : 226 points Date : 2023-06-10 13:45 UTC (9 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.theregister.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.theregister.com) | belter wrote: | "Conditionally automated driving: Mercedes-Benz DRIVE PILOT | further expands U.S. availability to the country's" - | https://media.mercedes-benz.com/article/81a29ac5-4d02-4b58-b... | | "Mercedes-Benz DRIVE PILOT is the world's only SAE Level 3 system | with internationally valid type approval. It builds on a very | robust foundation, setting new industry standards. DRIVE PILOT | uses a highly sophisticated vehicle architecture based on | redundancy with a multitude of sensors enabling comfortable and | safe conditionally automated driving. The certification by the | authorities in California and in Nevada once again confirms that | redundancy is the safe and thus the right approach." | | "...Mercedes-Benz is focusing on SAE Level 3 conditionally | automated driving with the ultimate goal of driving at speeds of | up to 80 mph (130 km/h) in its final iteration..." | | "Mercedes-Benz S-Class DRIVE PILOT Sensors Details" - | https://youtu.be/9m-VS55w9HA | cj wrote: | >"Mercedes-Benz S-Class DRIVE PILOT Sensors Details" - | https://youtu.be/9m-VS55w9HA | | - LiDAR | | - Radar | | - Cameras | | - Ultrasonic sensor | | - Road moisture sensor | | Curious how this collection of sensor compares with Tesla and | also with run of the mill cars with ACC / lane keeping. | stefan_ wrote: | It seems a bit suboptimal to place LiDAR in the front and | low. More like a lane following kinda setup. | belter wrote: | https://youtu.be/BFdWsJs6z4c | cj wrote: | I'm aware of Elon's opinion: "LiDAR is lame. LiDAR is lame. | Lame. Losers use LiDAR. LiDAR is expensive." | | I can't stomach watching a video that starts out like that. | pyinstallwoes wrote: | Do you use LiDAR when you drive? | timeon wrote: | Do you use camera when you drive? | fallingknife wrote: | I use 2 | [deleted] | tgv wrote: | How much processing power do you use to process the input | and control the car? You've got more of it in your head | than a whatever Tesla puts in their cars. Your cameras | are also better. | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | No, but at the same time Boeings and Airbuses don't flap | their wings and birds don't use jet engines to fly. | | Just because nature and millions of years of evolution | have solved a problem in a way that looks simple on the | surface, doesn't mean the same thing can be copied with | current tech to solve the same problem. | | Elon's "but humans drive with only use two eyes therefore | we can do it with cameras" is the most moronic argument | ever and it saddens me when I hear others here parrot it. | | Our two eyes may be enough to drive, but our eyes can | move in their sockets, our heads can move around and | parallax for depth perception, our retinas have miles | better dynamic range than any commercial sensor that | Tesla is using, but most importantly, our brains are | orders of magnitude ore intelligent at reasoning with new | or unknown situations than current self driving tech | which is just basic pattern matching in comparison. | carlmr wrote: | It's moronic because it's motivated reasoning. | ajross wrote: | It's also worth pointing out that this is an extremely limited | system: | | > On suitable freeway sections and where there is high traffic | density, DRIVE PILOT can offer to take over the dynamic driving | task, up to speeds of 40 mph. | | Basically, this will follow the car in front of you in slow | freeway traffic. It won't navigate, it won't even change lanes. | It won't work (and it's not clear to me how it disengages) when | traffic speeds up. | | That's not useless. There's a reasonable argument that this is | the product the market wants. But the "Germans beat Tesla" | framing here is really quite spun. Autonomy and capability | aren't the same thing. | Vespasian wrote: | You forgot the best "feature": It allows you to take your | hands off the wheel and your eyes off the road. | | This is significant as it means MB takes on liability and | will give you sufficient time (i think 10s in the European | version) to take over. | | In the world of corporate liability this is huge even if it | isn't a technical achievement by itself. | justapassenger wrote: | Only people who don't understand problem domain think it's | not a technical achievement. | ajross wrote: | I'll give you 2:1 odds that before this reaches market | (looks like end of the year for deliveries per the | article) Tesla will duplicate the stunt and lift the | driver monitoring requirements in similar situations. | | (Edit: two replies here playing gotcha games with prior | FSD announcements. But I'm serious: Tesla can do what | this Mercedes does already, essentially perfectly, and | has been for the two years I've operated the vehicle. The | cost to them of duplicating this stunt is near zero. I'll | bet you anything they do it.) | noAnswer wrote: | They claimed in 2018 that in 2019 you will be able to let | your Tesla work for you as a Robo-Taxi and make 300.000,- | a year. Why would they still wait? | | Why did Elon Musk wait so long to say the videos showing | "him" saying "We will have full self driving in 201x" are | deep fakes? | justapassenger wrote: | The Tesla, who claimed they're full self driving next | year, for more than half a decade now? | | Cool, let's wait. | | I think it shows how little you understand the problem, | to call it a "stunt". | panick21_ wrote: | There are lots of level 2 systems where you can take your | hands of the wheel. That not the definition of level 3. | kelnos wrote: | The interesting thing is it's roughly the same system my 2022 | Mercedes has, except it requires my hands on the wheel (and | does not disengage over 40mph). I mean, this is just adaptive | cruise with lane keeping. | | Really the big thing here is Mercedes is saying it's good | enough (under 40mph) that the driver doesn't have to pay | attention at all. | guerby wrote: | I searched and it looks like the Mercedes L3 is available for | 7430 EUR on top of 149900 EUR for the base EQS 450+ model (link | below, in french). | | Anyone looked if there's a cheaper way to get this Mercedes L3? | | https://www.lesnumeriques.com/voiture/drive-pilot-mercedes-c... | | https://www.lesnumeriques.com/voiture/essai-mercedes-eqs-450... | lvl102 wrote: | It doesn't take a lot to retro-fit roads with autonomous | guardrail markers when we repave. It's going to take a federal- | level effort to accomplish this (which should have been apart of | pandemic infrastructure stimulus). | | I strongly believe this would improve safety for autonomous | vehicles by 1000x. | justapassenger wrote: | Detecting lane is mostly solved problem. Detecting AND | predicting what other things will do on the road (not only | cars, but people, animals, trash, etc) is not. | pfannkuchen wrote: | > predicting what other things will do on the road... [like] | trash | | At least we do have a model for this one (physics). I wonder | what additional signals the car would need to accurately | simulate trash movement? Wind? | MattRix wrote: | I don't think you could ever accurately simulate trash | movement. | | Trash is irregularly shaped, even with the highest | resolution cameras, it'd be impossible to know what the far | side of the trash is shaped like. Then on top of that | there's no way to predict highly localized gusts of wind. | | The best way to deal with trash is to just have an ML model | deal with lots of it so it can make predictions about what | it is likely to do (which is basically what Tesla is | already doing). | justapassenger wrote: | Wind, yes. But even without it - thing get tricky, when | you're traveling at 80mph. You need to detect enough of | movements to be able to predict future path. It not easy, | even with very advanced sensors. | | And you cannot "play it safe and assume it'll collide with | us". You get phantom breaking, which is very dangerous. | ikekkdcjkfke wrote: | Have you seen the video where a tesla tries to hard left into | the guard rail on a freeway because of construction/redirect | lines going to the left | aedocw wrote: | Lane keeping is not the hard part, that's been solved for a | while. It's dealing with pedestrians and other drivers doing | unpredictable things. Slow moving infrastructure projects will | not help that at all. | zaroth wrote: | I used to think that V2X road infrastructure was a major | necessary component for self driving. I no longer hold that | opinion. | | The "self-driving" infrastructure would not be magically any | better than the "human-driving" infrastructure, and how to | handle conflicting data from the infra in terms of sensor | fusion is not at all clear. | | In short, it creates as many problems as it solves, and doesn't | really solve the problems that it sets out to in the real- | world. | | Even simpler things like supplemental signaling that could be | used in special circumstances like road work and emergency | vehicles, if they are not used properly and consistently in all | cases, it doesn't change the fact that the system needs to | correctly handle these cases internally. | lvl102 wrote: | I definitely agree state of the art is good enough for 97% of | driving scenarios but they're also not fail-safe and robust. | In order for autonomous to be truly acceptable, they need to | be 100x more safe. No, nearly flawless. In order to | accomplish that you need physical and hardcoded methods as | well. In addition, and equally as important, is that road | infrastructure gives you improved ability to coordinate cars | on the road without relying on individual and disparate | compute units. | kbos87 wrote: | There's just no need for this. Tesla can detect even the most | poorly defined edges of a dirt road without a problem. | belter wrote: | Maybe they should start at detecting children? Luminar Tech | can... - https://youtu.be/3mnG_Gbxf_w | throwaway_ab wrote: | Many people are saying Tesla FSD is far more advanced, and I've | seen videos of A Tesla driving around LA for 2 hours completely | autonomously so I agree Tesla FSD is the world leader by far and | blows what Mercedes has built out of the water. | | However Mercedes are taking liability whilst their system is in | use which implies Tesla takes no liability whilst their system is | in use. | | I'm surprised Tesla is scared to take legal responsibility for | their system and I am surprised lawmakers are allowing autonomous | systems when the manufacturer doesn't believe in it enough to | take responsibility whilst it's in use. | | How is Tesla getting away with this? | | Of course they can beat the competition especially if they do not | need to take legal responsibility for any deaths/accidents that | occur when it's in use. | notyourwork wrote: | If I were Tesla why would I take responsibility for something | no one is forcing me to take responsibility for? Lawmakers are | responsible for this charade and its embarrassing to me that a | company can be so misleading with marketing and get away with | it. | wahnfrieden wrote: | Both state and capital can be bad at the same time y'know | TulliusCicero wrote: | Because it means the feature is actually useful. | | If the human "driver" is liable for what an autonomous car | does, it means you have to watch the car like a hawk. At that | point, may as well be driving. | prmoustache wrote: | I wouldn't do any business with you for example if that is | your default level of ethics. | jchoca wrote: | You say that, but it's how most companies operate | unfortunately. | GreedClarifies wrote: | OK then don't! | | That's the magic of the market! People have different | values. | radomir_cernoch wrote: | > [...] blows what Mercedes has built out of the water. | | Mercedes FSD prototype, 10 years ago: | https://youtu.be/G5kJ_8JAp-w | elif wrote: | In that video they mention doing localization based upon a | prebuilt map of the route by matching images to the model 10 | times per second. | | That is by definition, not FSD. That is like the system | announced today, a limited route autonomy. | | For comparison, FSD v3 (they are shipping v4 in every vehicle | now) performs localization 2,000 times per second based upon | a hybrid model of every road in open street maps and a | generalized model of roads. That is why it is FULL. Even if | you are on an unmapped brand new road built yesterday, it | will know how to drive appropriately. | akmarinov wrote: | They aren't shipping v4 in the model 3, so no on the "every | vehicle" | elif wrote: | https://www.teslaoracle.com/2023/06/07/tesla- | model-3-highlan... | akmarinov wrote: | That's not shipping... | | If you buy a model 3 TODAY you get V3 | ChuckNorris89 wrote: | _> Mercedes FSD prototype, 10 years ago:_ | | Mercedes FSD prototype 1986 to 1994 via the 400 Million Euro | EU funded Prometheus project | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I39sxwYKlEE | | It's funny that German, and Italian researchers and car | makers had the early lead on self driving tech and then lost | it by shelving the tech. Oof. | | Which reinforces my earlier point I made in another thread | here today, that innovation only happens in the EU as long as | it's government funded and as soon as the funding stops, work | stops and everything gets shelved instead of the private | industry picking up the slack, funding it further to | commercialize it like in the US. Sad. | | _"It's possible that [Germany] threw away its clear vanguard | role because research wasn't consistently continued at the | time," Schmidhuber said. He added that carmakers might have | shied away from self-driving technology because it seemed to | be in opposition to their marketing, which promoted the idea | of a driver in charge of steering a car. "_ | moffkalast wrote: | > What do they have now? | | > > Mercedes sprinter | | I don't know why but that is hysterical. | jeffreygoesto wrote: | Ernst Dickmanns. Legend. Sat close to him at a CVPR and he | could not resist to rant about "How's that new? We did that | in the 90es!" =:-D | constantcrying wrote: | >It's funny that German, and Italian researchers and car | makers had the early lead on self driving tech and then | lost it by shelving the tech. Oof. | | Actually a very common occurrance. I don't think FSD on | todays level was possible in '94 and the projects failure | was inevitable unless it had been continously funded for at | least 15 years more. | | >innovation only happens in the EU as long as it's | government funded and as soon as the funding stops | | Seems like a bad example. Funding stopped because the | technology didn't work. | MattRix wrote: | Yeah that's nowhere close. It's easy to make a prototype that | looks good in a marketing video while driving a very tightly | mapped route. It's a whole other thing to let anyone use self | driving tech anywhere, especially on routes it has never seen | before. | jeffreygoesto wrote: | That was teen years ago, remember. All I can say is that | these guys are extremely knowledgeable, kind and an | absolute joy to work with. Big shout out to Eberhard, | Carsten, Christoph, Clemens and Thao, and to the ones not | appearing in the video, like Uwe (enjoy your retirement), | David and Henning and a lot others from the chair of | Christoph Stiller and from Mercedes research. | elif wrote: | The responsibility already isn't on the car occupants, it is on | the occupants' insurance carrier. The only way to meaningfully | diminish responsibility on the car occupants is to lower | insurance premiums. | | To that end, Tesla is offering insurance directly to consumers | now, offering lower premiums based upon driver safety system | utilization. In my case it would cut my insurance rates in | half. | ajross wrote: | > However Mercedes are taking liability whilst their system is | in use | | Are they? This press release doesn't actually say so. There was | an announcement a while back when they deployed this system in | Germany, but that's obviously a different legal environment. | | FWIW, this is mostly spin anyway. Liability isn't generally | something that is granted, it's either there or not. If Tesla | FSD causes an accident, they can absolutely be sued for that in | the US. And they have been on a handful of occasions | (Successfully even, I think? Pretty sure there were settlements | in some of the early AP accidents?). | | The reason that "Tesla is liable for accidents" doesn't make | news is... that there are vanishingly few AP/FSD accidents. The | system as deployed is safe, but that doesn't match people's | priors so we end up in arguments like this about "accepting | liability" instead of "it crashed". | ra7 wrote: | > Liability isn't generally something that is granted, it's | either there or not. If Tesla FSD causes an accident, they | can absolutely be sued for that in the US. | | That's not what liability means here. Assuming the story is | true, it means Mercedes is responsible for damages caused | when the system is engaged and the users know that when they | buy the car. Being sued afterwards is not the same thing. | | > The reason that "Tesla is liable for accidents" doesn't | make news is... that there are vanishingly few AP/FSD | accidents. | | Or because Tesla actively hides accident data by using | suspect methodology and not following regulations about | disclosure. | | Just a couple of days ago there was a user report of FSD | hitting and killing a dog: https://twitter.com/TeslaUberRide/ | status/1666860361381818384... | | Unsurprisingly, it won't show up in any of the stats Tesla | publishes in their two-paragraph "safety report". That's | because they don't consider any contact that doesn't deploy | airbags to be an accident. There are plenty of reports like | this that are not being counted. | | Not to mention, Tesla is openly violating at least CA DMV | regulations that require reporting of all disengagements and | contact events. | rad_gruchalski wrote: | Yes, because an accident is when there are personal | injuries, otherwise it's a collision. | ra7 wrote: | I'm not aware of any definition of accident that says | personal injuries have to occur. But sure, you can | replace accident here with collision or contact events. | Also, airbag deployment doesn't automatically mean there | are injuries either. | | Point is these types of events are not being reported by | Tesla, while every other company testing self driving | technology (specially ones that have CA DMV permit to do | so) are reporting them. | toast0 wrote: | > Not to mention, Tesla is openly violating at least CA DMV | regulations that require reporting of all disengagements | and contact events. | | Tesla letters to CA DMV claim they don't participate | because their system isn't a self-driving system. Which is | fine, other than they're telling customers it is at the | same time. | charcircuit wrote: | A word's meaning is a specific legal document can be | different than a word's meaning in a product's marketing | material. | enragedcacti wrote: | [1] (2) (A) "Autonomous vehicle" means any vehicle equipped | with autonomous technology that has been integrated into that | vehicle that meets the definition of Level 3, Level 4, or | Level 5 | | [2] (c) The manufacturer has in place and has provided the | department with evidence of the manufacturer's ability to | respond to a judgment or judgments for damages for personal | injury, death, or property damage arising from the operation | of autonomous vehicles on public roads | | [1] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySec | tio... | | [2] https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/file/adopted-regulatory- | text-p... | | > FWIW, this is mostly spin anyway. Liability isn't generally | something that is granted, it's either there or not. | | Mercedes is releasing an L3 product in a jurisdiction where | operation of L3 products is insured by the manufacturer. That | is substantially different than "someone could sue them and | maybe maybe maybe win" | | > The reason that "Tesla is liable for accidents" doesn't | make news is... that there are vanishingly few AP/FSD | accidents. | | There have been 736 known AP/FSD crashes and 17 deaths. The | reason that "Tesla is liable for accidents" doesn't make news | is that they aren't legally liable for their level 2 system | under existing AV regulation. | | https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/theres-been-a- | whopping-... | ajross wrote: | Sorry, where do you get "accept liability" from "ability to | respond to a judgement for damages"? That's not a | requirement to pay, that just requires that the company | have the ability to pay if they are found liable! It's the | corporate equivalent of requiring liability insurance. | | Show me the contract (or hell, even a press release) where | Mercedes acknowledged accepting liability in the US. I | really don't think this happened. | piotrkaminski wrote: | There were a ton of articles around 2022-03-20 (e.g., | [1]) that had a line like this: | | > Once you engage Drive Pilot, you are no longer legally | liable for the car's operation until it disengages. | | Not quite a press release but given that Mercedes never | denied the claims it's pretty close. It'll be interesting | to see how this is implemented legally, of course. | | [1] https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a39481699/what- | happens-if-... | ajross wrote: | That was a German product though. The press release about | the american rollout is notably missing that language. | piotrkaminski wrote: | Hmm, the latest article [1] specifically about the | California authorization says: | | > When active, Mercedes takes responsibility for Drive | Pilot's actions. | | and | | > "Mercedes-Benz Drive Pilot is the world's only SAE | Level 3 system with internationally valid type approval," | Mercedes CTO Markus Schafer said in a statement. | | Not as clear-cut as you'd want it to be but certainly | leaning towards the claim. I guess we'll know for sure | once the cars actually go on sale in California. | | [1] https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a44139131/mercedes- | benz-se... | enragedcacti wrote: | Why are you quoting "accept liability" as if its | something I actually said? | | > Show me the contract (or hell, even a press release) | where Mercedes acknowledged accepting liability in the | US. | | I'm not sure why this is the bar to clear, there is no | reason Mercedes would want to potentially open themselves | to more responsibility than the law requires. That said, | it should be obvious to most people that Mercedes is | taking some legal exposure when they: | | 1) call their product SAE L3 when SAE L3 is the legal | definition of a vehicle where the operator doesn't have | to pay attention | | 2) tell the user they can watch movies while driving! (no | US manual available yet but they make a similar statement | in the press release) https://moba.i.mercedes- | benz.com/baix/cars/223.1_mbux_2021_a... | | That very obviously speaks to their level of confidence | in their system compared to something like FSD: | | > It may do the wrong thing at the worst time, so you | must always keep your hands on the wheel and pay extra | attention on the road. | | some legal analysis of US law on AV liability if you're | interested: https://www.nortonrosefulbright.com/en/knowle | dge/publication... | zaroth wrote: | Mercedes could also ship their own L2 AutoPilot without having | to take legal responsibility. Their customers would love it as | much as Tesla drivers love theirs. | | The thing is, they just aren't capable of it. | bobsoap wrote: | Mercedes has been shipping their L2 system since 2013, at | least in Europe. | amf12 wrote: | Or Mercedes has certain reputation to maintain. This is not a | dig at Tesla, but Mercedes not shipping L2 AP doesn't imply | they aren't capable of it. | kelnos wrote: | Huh? The L2 system on my 2022 Mercedes works just fine. And | I'm sure that's not the first model year where it was | present. | renewiltord wrote: | I see. This car is good enough for a morning commute in Bay Area | traffic. The question is the disengagement mode. 40 mph on the | highway means it only makes sense in traffic, but when the | conditions are no longer met how does it decide to hand over | control? | | If it can reliably wake me up or pull over at the off ramp then | it's good enough. | cryptoegorophy wrote: | All these comments are a perfect example and a study of | confirmation bias. | pvorb wrote: | By the way, Mercedes tested a self-driving van in 1986[1]. | | [1]: https://www.politico.eu/article/delf-driving-car- | born-1986-e... | TheAlchemist wrote: | Clickbait title to say the least ! | | While Tesla did amazing things for EVs adoption, and self driving | (even if one may say the main contribution is hyping it) it's | hard to see them as leaders anymore. | | Fact is, Mercedes is taking responsibility for its system while | Tesla is not. Tesla claims (and especially it's fanboys) starts | to look like Theranos. Yeah it almost work and it will be a game | changer. Yeah well... | | I'm curious about those Tesla videos that are everywhere - is | there some kind of dataset somewhere with videos of similar | situations, annotated with which version it is etc, so one can | make a kind of historical evaluation of its progress ? | | (Would also like the history of Elon tweets claiming each version | fix this or that to go along in the dataset) | onethought wrote: | Is there a database of videos of Mercedes? I know "they take | liability" but if I'm dead, that still sucks. | | What has Mercedes ceo commented about it? | | I think you'll find Mercedes just don't publish anything, where | as Tesla pretty much develop in the open. Regardless of the | sausage, some people just don't like knowing how it's made. | Havoc wrote: | Comments are surprisingly negative - I would have thought hn | would celebrate such an advance | warkdarrior wrote: | Only Elon is allowed to make advances in the automotive, space, | tunneling, and tweeting spaces. | kubb wrote: | they probably hold tesla stock since its all time high :) | claudiug wrote: | sadly I can only do a +1 once :) | TulliusCicero wrote: | Over the last handful of years, it does seem like HN commenters | have become much more negative about tech advances. | sebzim4500 wrote: | I think with a different headline the comments would have been | positive, but this one is misleading at best | dbcurtis wrote: | L3 is profoundly unwise. L3 can disengage at any moment. The | attention required of the human in order to drive safely exceeds | that required in L2, and is much more difficult to maintain. | ajross wrote: | I don't know that it's "unwise"; that depends on failure rate. | | But it's absolutely true that the practical difference between | "human must supervise" and "human must be ready to take over" | is _MUCH_ smaller than people want it to be. Mostly everyone | wants to yell about Elon Musk and "2 vs. 3" is ammunition. | Retric wrote: | L3 requires zero attention, that's what makes it L3 vs L2. The | driver needs to stay sober, awake, and in the drivers seat but | are supposed to be able to read a book or something. | | A L3 car is required to be able to handle all short term | situations and only do a handoff with 5-10 seconds of warning. | The idea is it's ok for the car to come to a complete stop and | say I have no idea what to do, but it isn't ok to simply fail | on a freeway at 70 MPH. | | Failing safely is a huge difference, as mentioned in the | article: _if a driver doesn 't take over when prompted the car | activates the hazard lights and slowly comes to a stop before | making an emergency system call to alert first responders to a | potential problem._ | belter wrote: | It will give a 10 second warning - https://youtu.be/1gjweWq8qAc | dbcurtis wrote: | I have verrrry limited connectivity RN so can't watch video. | If they really do give 10 seconds, then does the system | remain engaged for the "dog/kid darting out between parked | cars" scenario? And engage a collision avoidance trajectory | planner? 10 seconds is an eternity, even in 35 mph zones. (60 | kph) | Retric wrote: | Yes L3 must handle the dog running into the road situation, | this Mercedes will even do evasive driving when possible to | avoid a collision. | foepys wrote: | Mercedes' system will always give the driver a 10 seconds | warning before disengaging. Enough to put away your phone and | assess the situation. | Gasp0de wrote: | How is that different from L2? SAE Levels 0-2 demand constant | supervision and the ability to take over at any moment. Level 3 | is actually better, as it only requires you to be able to take | over after a short (e.g. 10 second) notice. Levels 4 and 5 do | not require the driver to be able to take over (e.g. drunk, | sleeping, no license). | | https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update | dbcurtis wrote: | How short is short? How fast is your OODA loop? L3 plays into | known human factor weaknesses. | gzer0 wrote: | Friendly reminder that this system is HEAVILY limited, with the | following restrictions: - Must be under 40 mph | - Only during the daylight and only on certain highways - | CANNOT be operated on city/country streets - CANNOT be | operated in construction zones - CANNOT be during heavy | rain or fog or flood roads | | And for comparison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjZSZTKYEU4 | | Tesla FSD navigating the complex city streets of LA for 60 | minutes with zero human intervention. | | This seems like a marketing gimmick by Mercedes at best; the two | technologies aren't even in the same league. Any comparison is | laughable. They are outmatched, outclassed, and absolutely | outdone. Karpathy (now @ OpenAI) and the Tesla FSD team have | really done an incredible job. | golemiprague wrote: | [dead] | iancmceachern wrote: | Friendly reminder that there are many humans who choose to not | operate their vehicle outside of these conditions as well. Not | me, but I know people... | jacquesm wrote: | I don't think we're going to agree here. | | > This seems like a marketing gimmick by Mercedes at best; | | No, this is what a professional roll-out of a feature like this | should look like. | | > the two technologies aren't even in the same league. > Any | comparison is laughable. | | Well, at least we agree on these two. But probably not about | the direction. | [deleted] | akmarinov wrote: | In the end, Mercedes assumes liability for its system, where | Tesla doesn't. Tells you all you need to know. | slg wrote: | This doesn't mean the system is actually better. It just | means that Mercedes thinks that the cost of covering the | liability won't exceed the boost in sales that come from this | decision. It reminds me of what an automotive innovator once | said[1]: | | >Here's the way I see it, Ted. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on | a box 'cause he wants you to feel all warm and toasty | inside... Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed | piece of shit. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want | me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I | got spare time. But for now, for your customer's sake, for | your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a | quality product from me. | | Not that I'm implying Autopilot is necessarily a "quality | product" in comparison. It is just that a guarantee or | liability coverage is nothing but a marketing expense for the | company issuing it. It doesn't actually mean the product is | higher quality. | | [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEB7WbTTlu4 | wilg wrote: | Is there evidence for this? | DoesntMatter22 wrote: | [flagged] | djcannabiz wrote: | https://insideevs.com/news/575160/mercedes-accepts-legal- | res... | | "once a driver turns on Drive Pilot, they are "no longer | legally liable for the car's operation until it | disengages." The publication goes so far as to say that a | driver could actually pay zero attention to the road ahead, | play on their mobile phones, and even watch a movie. If the | car were to crash, Mercedes would be 100 percent | responsible." | wilg wrote: | Yes, but is there any evidence this is actually | happening? Not that they announced it might a year ago. | wilg wrote: | Folks, don't downvote me, show me where Mercedes actually | says they are taking liability for actual cars that are | actually on the road with customers. What people cite on | this is a vague marketing puff piece from a year ago. If | they are doing it, it should be pretty easy to find out | how that is structured from their website or whatever the | car owner has signed, or just like literally any evidence | whatsoever. | dmix wrote: | This explains the 40mph and other extreme restrictions | froh wrote: | for now, that is. in German they call it "traffic jam | pilot" Staupilot. they start L3 autonomy with the boring | and tedious scenario first. | | it's obvious they'll expand it to more and more | freeway/highway driving scenarios, and from there grow | into any out of town driving. | | meanwhile Waymo and Tesla can take their bruises with | downtown traffic and pedestrians and children and hand | drawn road signs and dirty signs and poorly placed ones | and whichever more crazy real life reality show surprise | guests appear on stage... | | I wouldn't (and I don't think you did but several others | in such discussions do) snicker too much on Mercedes. | they have a knack on getting a couple of car related | things pretty right. | jpalomaki wrote: | I can understand financial liability, but what if somebody | gets seriously hurt and there's criminal charges? Is there | already a legal framework in US for transferring this kind of | liabilities from the driver to manufacturer? | simondotau wrote: | How exactly is Mercedes accepting liability? I mean to say, | how does this work in practice? Who absorbs the demerit | points if your car is accused of going 40 in a 30 zone? | JumpCrisscross wrote: | > _How exactly is Mercedes accepting liability?_ | | You're indemnified. | kbos87 wrote: | Mercedes can't indemnify you. Local police and | prosecutors make those decisions. | nradov wrote: | Nope. Local police and prosecutors have no authority to | make decisions on liability. Their authority is limited | to criminal matters. However, police reports can | generally be used as evidence in civil trials where | judges and juries make decisions about liability. | | There may be some circumstances where a driver operating | a Mercedes-Benz vehicle using Drive Pilot could be | committing a criminal offense. For example, I think | sitting in the driver's seat while intoxicated would | still be illegal even if you're not actually driving. But | that is separate from liability. | JumpCrisscross wrote: | > _Mercedes can't indemnify you. Local police and | prosecutors make those decisions_ | | Are you thinking of immunity? Indemnity is regularly | contracted between private parties. (Also, police can't | give you immunity in America.) | jimjimjim wrote: | good god! No autonomous drive should drive through fog or | flooded roads or construction zones. I wouldn't trust any | system in those conditions regardless of what stans say. | oxfordmale wrote: | Mercedes accepts legal liability for collisions if the system | is used under these stringent conditions. Tesla doesn't do | this. | | It also doesn't mean it doesn't have the technical capability | to drive through the streets of LA for 60 minutes. | | https://www.thatcham.org/mercedes-to-accept-liability-for-ac... | BoorishBears wrote: | Working in the AV space, it's really frustrating how | confidently people who have no idea about what's hard and | what isn't go off about Tesla right now. | | Mercedes has soundly beaten the last decade of Tesla efforts | by reaching L3. | | I've personally watched FSD go off the rails and into a crash | situation within 60 seconds of being turned on three times | this month (I have a friend who loves to try it in San | Francisco) | | Had it crashed it'd be on my friend, not Tesla. The fact | Mercedes is taking responsibility puts it in an entirely | different level of effectiveness. | | - | | People also don't seem to understand Mercedes has a separate | L2 system that works above 45 mph that already scores better | than AP by consumer reports | amelius wrote: | Do they use a RealTime OS? | | If so, (how) do they run GPU drivers on it? | | And if not, how do they guarantee that the system is responsive | and safe? | | (Of course a third option would be that they don't use an OS at | all for the mission critical stuff). | simion314 wrote: | Would you bet your life on a Tesla Twitter promise? They are | not even betting one cent on their car safety. | zaroth wrote: | > They are not even betting one cent in their car safety. | | Do you mean strictly in the sense of accepting liability for | crashes while AutoPilot is engaged? | | Because Tesla makes safety a primary selling point of their | vehicles. Objectively Tesla invests hugely in the safety of | their vehicles, and scores the absolute highest marks for | safety in many government tests. | | Tesla makes an L2 system where the driver must remain | engaged. And part of their _FSD_ system includes the most | sophisticated driver gaze and attention tracking system on | the market. This has made their FSD system on predominantly | _non-highway_ roads safer than the average human driver | without FSD. | simion314 wrote: | No, I mean actually bet your life, say put your little | children in the back and send them to some destination | because you seen Tesla videos on YouTube. | | if you won\t do it for a randoms destination, on what would | you risk your children life, on some white listed high-way? | which one? | kelnos wrote: | In minor traffic a week or so ago, I ended up next to a | Tesla for a few minutes where the driver had zero hands on | the wheel, and her eyes were buried in her phone, with her | head angled downward. Whatever system was running seemed to | be totally fine with that situation; if that's the most | advanced driver attention monitoring system available, | we're in a lot of trouble. Tesla caring so much about | safety is so obviously a bad joke. | chroma wrote: | I don't believe you. Teslas have a cabin camera that | monitors your gaze and quickly emits warnings if you look | at your phone while autopilot is on. If you ignore the | warnings, the car puts it emergency flashers on, pulls | over, and disables autonomous driving until your next | trip. If you do the five times with the FSD beta, you are | banned from using FSD. | qwytw wrote: | > are banned from using FSD | | Do you get a refund? | zaroth wrote: | It's a one week ban I believe. | zaroth wrote: | It is not. The FSD Beta enables an aggressive attention | monitor which is not active with the basic AutoPilot | system. | | The nag when FSD is enabled is actually quite annoying. | Even glancing over at the screen for more than a second | will trigger it. If it triggers more than a couple times | you get locked out for the drive. If it triggers more | than 5 times in total across any number of drives, you | get locked out entirely for a full week. | justapassenger wrote: | > And part of their FSD system includes the most | sophisticated driver gaze and attention tracking system on | the market. | | That's a just blunt lie. Their driver monitoring system is | very deficient. They lack, for example, industry standard | of infrared camera that allows you to see through the | sunglasses. | | And all older Model S/X, that have FSD, lack any camera at | all. | zaroth wrote: | You're right, their older cars don't have their most | advanced system. When I said "on the market" I mean the | cars they are selling now, not historically. | | I've found the system extremely adept at gaze tracking | and alerting. The cabin camera is infrared in their | latest models (at least for the last 2 years). | | Please don't call me a liar. I am happy to be called | wrong and corrected. | | I should have said "one of the most advanced" because | this is in truth a subjective measure and I don't think | agencies like NHTSA rank and qualify attention tracking? | dclowd9901 wrote: | I'm curious what streets are under 40 mph and not "city" or | "country" streets? | spockz wrote: | Congested highways? | KennyBlanken wrote: | For comparison, Tesla FSD veering directly at a cyclist, who | was saved only by the driver's lightning reflexes: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5wkENwrp_k | | For comparison, Tesla FSD cruising right through a crossswalk | with pedestrians and the driver is gleeful about it: | https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/05/teslas-full-self-drivin... | | For comparison, Tesla FSD veering into oncoming traffic | https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/128zncy/fsd_te... | | I remember seeing a video where Tesla FSD veered right at an | island/telephone pole. Another where it veered at a _crowd_ of | pedestrians on the corner of a signalized intersection waiting | to cross. | | A reminder that the software has been buggy for years and Tesla | is somehow being allowed to "beta test" it in public among | people who did not consent to the risk. | jeroenhd wrote: | As a counter point: these Tesla videos are much more common | because there are more Teslas driving around with the feature | enabled. | | We don't know of the Mercedes is as much of a murder machine | based on the little material from their FSD system there is. | | All self driving car manufacturers have videos of their cars | doing the most ridiculous things. It's hard to pick one above | the other. At least Mercedes seems to have documented their | limitations rather than assumed their system works | everywhere, so that's a good sign to me. | iknowstuff wrote: | Because ultimately there hasn't been a single publicized | death or injury resulting from FSD Beta, while it only took a | few months for a professional tester of Uber's SDC effort to | kill someone. So maybe it makes sense to test with millions | of people for a few minutes a day instead of 8 hours a day | with a few hired testers. The media would sure jump on such | tesla headlines. | belter wrote: | Took me less than a few minutes, to find in the same channel, | FSD failing and the human having to intervene. Here it is at | the proper time and for a video uploaded 10 hours ago... - | https://youtu.be/KG4yABOlNjk?t=995 | | And even worst failures...looking at all these I simply do not | believe the videos posted are not edited or a selection of a | success out of many failed ones. | | https://youtu.be/KG4yABOlNjk?t=1252 | | https://youtu.be/WowhH_Xry9s?t=77 | | https://youtu.be/WowhH_Xry9s?t=196 | | Since the video was live on YouTube no editing was done... | | These videos are only posting the successful events, we need to | see them all. That is why probably Tesla is not putting their | money where their mouth is. | shdshdshd wrote: | Now, lets see Mercedes ones... | elif wrote: | Why don't you find a video of FSD failing on a 40mph highway | with no lane changes for an apples to apples comparison... | | Oh wait that is an unreasonably niche scenario to be worthy | of consideration in the context of full autonomy. | belter wrote: | Will almost accelerating straight into the guard rail at 30 | mph do it? - https://youtu.be/sNBEHumIHJI?t=14 | | https://www.carscoops.com/2022/05/tesla-driver-claims- | model-... | fallingknife wrote: | That road is not within the operating requirements of the | Mercedes L3 which is only allowed on highways where such | turns are never found. | zaroth wrote: | This is a great example! I hope people will take the time to | click and watch it drive. | | I think it's a tough call in this case. The Tesla is trying | not to block an intersection where a light is green but | there's no room to clear the intersection on the other side | due to traffic ahead. In fact an oncoming car is able to turn | left in front of the Tesla because it waited. | | Probably the law is that you should NOT enter the | intersection in such a state, but the human nature would be | to make a more nuanced judgement of "how bad would it be" to | continue thru and possibly get stuck sticking out into the | intersection for a bit until traffic moves again. | | I would think - how long might I be stuck? Would it actual | impede other traffic? Also factors like, am I'm late for | work? Am I frustrated because traffic has been horrible or am | I enjoying a Sunday drive? | | Ego (Tesla's name for the driving software) doesn't get | impatient. It can maximally obey all traffic regulations at | all times if they code it to do so, even if human drivers | behind might be laying on the horn. | | This little clip really shows how much nuance is involved in | designing these systems, and how doing the technically right | thing can either be wrong or at least ambiguously right. | belter wrote: | That is not the failure. The failure is that would not move | anymore and the driver had to intervene and accelerate. | zaroth wrote: | At 16:55 thru 17:15? Where he manually accelerates the | car and blocks the intersection? | belter wrote: | https://youtu.be/KG4yABOlNjk?t=999 | | 16:40 to 17:12 | szundi wrote: | Seemed to be completely OK, a driver who is on the safe | side would have just done this exactly | rvnx wrote: | Totally, you are not supposed to block an intersection, | and it is forbidden to stay on a pedestrian crossing. | belter wrote: | Again...that was not the failure. Actually there are two | failures: | | - First one, to stop too far away both from the road | intersection and the pedestrian crossing. And of course | you should not stop on top the pedestrian crossing. The | car behind the Tesla, noticed that right away, and went | over the Tesla. Even the Tesla driver in the video | commented on that. I wonder what FSD version that driver | has :-) | | - Second failure, the car ahead, the one already over the | road crossing started moving but the Tesla would not move | at all. Only when the video author accelerated as he | mentions in the video. | belter wrote: | If you stay there, blocking traffic for no reason, and do | not proceed when you are clear to go, as it did until the | driver accelerated, you will fail a driving license exam | in most countries. | BHSPitMonkey wrote: | "Most countries" would fail a driver for not crossing an | intersection until there is space on the other side? I | think you're being a little absurd here. | | The driver in this case could see that the cars beyond | the blue car were starting to move, and thus _predict_ | that he could cross a little bit early (betting on the | space being available by the end of the maneuver, but | risking being the ass who ends up blocking the crosswalk | after miscalculating). | Phil_Latio wrote: | Maybe it would have moved a second later... | [deleted] | [deleted] | jondwillis wrote: | LA has an unwritten law where 2-3 cars make unprotected | lefts after oncoming traffic has cleared on yellow/red | lights. Letting FSD drive, it can't honor this "cultural" | (technically illegal) behavior. If I am operating it, off | goes FSD in that moment. | zeroonetwothree wrote: | It's legal to turn left in such a case as long as you | entered the intersection already. So at least the first | 1-2 cars are not doing anything illegal | jondwillis wrote: | Yeah, but sometimes the second and usually the third (and | fourth - I have seen it!) are not in the intersection. | kevin_thibedeau wrote: | You can't legally enter an intersection (advance past the | stopping line if present) until you are clear to perform | your transit of the intersection. Left on red is never | legal and marginal on yellow. | dragonwriter wrote: | > Left on red is never legal and marginal on yellow. | | Not parituclarly relevant to the gridlock violation at | issue here, but left on red from a one-way street to a | one-way street is legal in the same conditions as right- | on-red generally in a large majority of US states, a few | of which also allow left-on-red from a two-way street to | a one-way street. Left-on-red is only completely illegal | in a few states. | toast0 wrote: | Dude it's totally following the law. You're allowed to | enter the intersection for an unprotected left even if | it's not clear to turn (possibly not if the end of the | intersection you're going to is full of cars). If you are | in the intersection, you're allowed to clear when | possible regardless of the color of your light. | | Most intersections with unprotected left turns let you | fit at least a whole car, sometimes two in the | intersection to wait, and the third car has its front | wheels on the paint, so it's totally in the intersection. | shkkmo wrote: | While you are allowed to enter the intersection during a | yellow, you are also considered legally to have been | warned and would be consider liable if doing so causes an | accident. | | This extra liability would seem like making self driving | cars error on the side of stopping to be in the interests | of auto makers who would be exposed to that liability. | toast0 wrote: | Mostly the cars will have entered during the green, not | the yellow, and were waiting for a chance to turn. When | there was no opportunity to turn while the light was | green, they must turn while the light is yellow or red, | because they are already in the intersection and must | clear the intersection. | illumin8 wrote: | Incorrect. As long as your front wheels pass the stop | line prior to the light turning red, you are legally | driving through the intersection and should continue and | clear the intersection on the other side (not stop in the | middle). | | Imagine how crazy the law would be if this were the case: | - Light changes from green to yellow 1ms before your | front wheels pass the stop line - Other direction traffic | runs a red light and hits you from the side - You're now | somehow liable because your wheels entered the | intersection with zero ability to react quickly enough | (no human can react in 1ms and no car can stop that fast) | and the other driver that clearly blew a red is not? | | That would be pants on head crazy, tbh... | illumin8 wrote: | Correct. The law states that as long as your front wheels | are in the intersection prior to the light turning red, | you should proceed through the intersection. | Inexperienced drivers that either stay in the | intersection or try to reverse into traffic behind them | are breaking the law and create a huge hazard for others. | | Even if the light for opposing traffic turns green while | the turning car is still clearing the intersection, | opposing traffic is legally required to wait and not | enter the intersection until opposing traffic has cleared | the intersection. | martythemaniak wrote: | Tesla has been specifically reprimanded by NHSTA for | allowing FSD to drive like human rather than to the | letter of the law. The rolling stops is one I remember, | but basically it'll apply to anything. | rhtgrg wrote: | > The Tesla is trying not to block an intersection where a | light is green | | What light? There is none if you're talking about t=995. | jondwillis wrote: | Anecdotally, in LA, I turn off FSD basically every minute | while trying to use it, due to it doing something slightly | "inhuman" or not ideal/too to the letter of the law, | signaling incorrectly while staying in a lane that curves | slightly, etc. | | I can't imagine letting it go for a full hour without causing | some road rage or traffic blockage. | | To be clear there is a definite driving "culture" in LA that | is very permissive and aggressive (out of necessity). FSD | doesn't follow this culture. | belter wrote: | Now imagine it trying to manage a Dutch Roundabout - | https://youtu.be/41XBzAOmmIU or driving in a city like | OPorto - https://youtu.be/VIWikUUl5YQ | rlupi wrote: | Or Naples https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCE1aUkeMe0 | belter wrote: | Well I was trying to still give a chance to FSD, but as | you are raising the stakes...Let's agree to have | Marrakech as the baseline - https://youtu.be/SsZlduEIyPQ | | And we can also test it in Ho Chi Minh. Tesla says it has | superhuman abilities... - https://youtu.be/1ZupwFOhjl4 | natch wrote: | Every time you disengage it invites you to leave immediate | voice feedback as to why, and presumably they are using all | this feedback in conjunction with camera and data feeds | from cars that are opted in (which includes all FSD beta | cars I believe). | | So, they are getting what they need to make it better. | LeoPanthera wrote: | > signaling incorrectly while staying in a lane that curves | slightly | | This is _super_ annoying, but the most recent FSD update | seems to have mostly fixed that. | | It's still pretty crappy in a lot of other ways, but at | least that improved. | jondwillis wrote: | I only started noticing it since the Autopilot/FSD fusion | update a month or two ago. I haven't been driving much | the past few weeks so maybe it has been fixed. | noja wrote: | > but the most recent FSD update seems to have mostly | fixed that. | | I have read this comment before. | kbos87 wrote: | I'm left wondering what this comment proves? The four | situations you posted were the most minor of minor annoyances | when the car was being _too cautious_ , and you've decided | they must be cherry picked without any evidence given. | belter wrote: | It's shows the system does not have a semantic | understanding of what is happening. That is why he stops so | far away from the gate, it does not know it is a gate. | | This is another one, definitely one of my favorite examples | ( at correct time) - https://youtu.be/2u6AgLuwVqI?t=86 | KennyBlanken wrote: | Tesla not only isn't putting their money where their mouth | is, they have a lond-standing history of using illegal DMCA | takedowns to remove these sorts of videos from Twitter, | reddit, Facebook, etc. | iknowstuff wrote: | Incorrect | wilg wrote: | I'm not sure exactly your point. The Tesla does sometimes | require intervention, that's why it's Level 2. But it's still | attempting to drive in significantly more complicated | situations than this Drive Pilot thing. Does Drive Pilot stop | at stoplights or make turns? I don't think so. | | Regarding deceptive editing, plenty of people post their | Teslas doing squirrely things and them intervening. So it's | not like a secret that sometimes you have to intervene. | belter wrote: | Look at is happening at this point, another additional | failure mode, not seen in the links I posted before | | https://youtu.be/WowhH_Xry9s?t=272 | | See how is confusing the speed limit for cars and trucks, | and doing a sudden break. More precisely, at 5:12. | | So if you have car driving behind you, not expecting the | sudden break, this could cause an accident. They are joking | with people lives. | | Ethics matter in Software Engineering. | iknowstuff wrote: | FYI: Not unique to Tesla, I get plenty of sudden | slowdowns when riding Cruise. | AbrahamParangi wrote: | Attempting and failing is clearly, _clearly_ worse for the | general public and in my opinion Tesla should be strictly | liable. | wilg wrote: | It's not necessarily worse, since there is a person | driving the car who can prevent the car from behaving | badly. What's the safety difference between this and a | regular cruise control, which will happily plow you into | a wall or car if you don't intervene? | | And, empirically, there's no evidence that these cars are | less safe when driving this way. Tesla claims people | driving with FSD enabled have 4x fewer accidents than | those driving without it, and nobody has presented any | data that disputes that. | belter wrote: | "Tesla Again Paints A Crash Data Story That Misleads Many | Readers" - https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/202 | 3/04/26/tesla-... | | "...Several attempts have been made to reach out to Tesla | for comment over the years since these numbers first | started coming out, however, Tesla closed its press | relations office and no longer responds to press | inquiries..." | wilg wrote: | This critique of their impact report (I was referring to | a more recent statement) only goes as far as saying FSD | beta is equally safe to humans driving, not worse, which | seems perfectly acceptable? | avereveard wrote: | Depends on the average of human driver. Especially if the | average includes motorbikes. | | Saying fsd on tela has the same statistic than the | general driver population prints a grim picture, as it | puts it in a strictly worse performance than peers | vehicles (SUV or saloons depending on the model) | adsfgiodsnrio wrote: | We know Tesla cannot match Mercedes. We don't know whether | or not Mercedes can match Tesla. Mercedes isn't reckless | enough to let untrained fanboys play with defective | software in two-ton vehicles on public roads. | samr71 wrote: | "We know Tesla cannot match Mercedes" - how? You know | this? | | "reckless" "untrained fanboys" "defective software" - | what is this tone? Why is it reckless? Why do the fanboys | need training? Why do you think the software is | defective? These are significant unjustified claims! | | To me, it seems each company has a different strategy for | self-driving, which aren't directly comparable. Beta | testing with relatively untrained people on public roads | seems necessary for either strategy though. | adsfgiodsnrio wrote: | >how? You know this? | | California seems to think so. | | >Beta testing with relatively untrained people on public | roads seems necessary for either strategy though. | | Then why is Tesla the only company doing it? | | Mercedes has an L3 system shipping _today_ and they didn | 't see any need to endanger my life to build it. | wilg wrote: | Mercedes' system does not do most of the things Tesla's | does, right? Such as stop at stoplights or make turns, or | do anything at all off-highway. It's a significantly | different product, and since they didn't try to do many | of the things Tesla is trying to do, it's pretty | difficult to claim that those things aren't necessary | because Mercedes didn't do them, when they haven't even | attempted to deliver the same feature. | belter wrote: | "Watch the Self-Driving Struggle" - | https://youtu.be/2u6AgLuwVqI?t=88 | activiation wrote: | A few weeks ago, i saw a Tesla suddenly go 90 degrees on a | small road downtown Atlanta ... It took a while for it to get | going again... Of course I don't know if it was FSD but I have | never seen a human do something this dumb. | anaganisk wrote: | Yowzzaa, but the damm Beta on Tesla can't still think of | slowing down while cornering on steep curves, throwing people | on to the side and not navigate into a dead end that drops into | the ocean. This is not an anecdote, it's my personal | experience. No way I'm not gonna trust a system again, that | puts human lives (even those who are not driving a Tesla) for a | beta test. | foota wrote: | Sounds like they don't want people to die from their product. | rvnx wrote: | It's very different goals, the Tesla approach is more of a | hack, which is to release things, without any liability or | guarantee "we quickly hacked this together, good luck, if you | die or get injured this is your problem!", and Mercedes is | delivering a product that only support a few features but do it | well, and they put their responsibility on it. | lm28469 wrote: | > "we quickly hacked this together, good luck, if you die or | get injured this is your problem!" | | Or kill someone who didn't ask for any of this | dmix wrote: | What features does Tesla FSD offer that Mercedes doesn't? | jacquesm wrote: | Liability. | Gys wrote: | Very serious limitation of Tesla: | | The human has to keep the hands on the wheel at all times and | eyes on the road. | | Edit: I looked at these FSD videos before and am very sure it | will not work that well in an average European city. | Unfortunately, because I really would love to buy a real self | driving car that legally allows me to watch a movie while | driving (highways is enough). | fossuser wrote: | Yeah this isn't beating Tesla to anything. | | If you constrain a system to where it's effectively useless and | declare victory, that's worse than trying to actually solve the | problem and saying you're not there yet. | | It's lowering the goal precipitously until you can achieve and | then pretending you did it. Tesla has flaws, but this is a dumb | article. | cbsmith wrote: | > Yeah this isn't beating Tesla to anything. | | They beat Tesla to being certified in California as Level 3, | with restrictions. | fossuser wrote: | anything _that matters_ (which was implied by the rest of | my comment) | | They can check a box and make this press release though, I | guess that's worth something. | conroy wrote: | > Tesla FSD navigating the complex city streets of LA for 60 | minutes with zero human intervention. | | 17 fatalities, 736 crashes: The shocking toll of Tesla's | Autopilot | | https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/06/10/tesla-a... | charcircuit wrote: | Just because you crash that doesn't mean you aren't able to | navigate without human intervention. Humans are also capable | of crashing their car. | merth wrote: | He means under their supervisor control. There are "normal" | people who do their best to cause a crash. | bmicraft wrote: | Without any comparison to humans those numbers are completely | meaningless | readams wrote: | Autopilot is just fancy cruise control. How many crashes have | there been with cruise control turned on? It's just a | completely meaningless thing to even look at. How many | crashes would there have been during those miles without | autopilot? | pell wrote: | Tesla doesn't sell Autopilot as cruise control though. | fallingknife wrote: | You're right, that is shockingly low! 43,000 people die in | car crashes in the US every year, and only 17 in Teslas since | 2019. That's only 1 in 7500. | georgyo wrote: | These statistics are meaningless. | | How many Tesla cars with full self driving are there | compared to regular cars? | | A Tesla with FSD will only be using FSD a small fraction of | the time. | | If we had statistics on the number of hours FSD was active | compared to the number of hours all other car driving of | all cars we might be able to compared these numbers. | | Hour wise, I think normal driving is way above 7500:1. | Eisenstein wrote: | Why are people willing to excuse things because they | happen in a car? If an AI power tool were going haywire | once in a while and chopping the arms off of bystanders | near by, would we find that acceptable because people | using non-AI powered tools also chop off their body parts | sometimes? 'We can't know if it would have happened if a | person were in control' is not an argument that would fly | for anything else just as dangerous. | pavlov wrote: | I have a Model 3 in Europe with the so-called FSD, and it's | mostly terrible. I regret paying for it. The car often doesn't | understand even speed limit signs, so it fails at the bare | minimum of safety. | | Recently I visited LA and a friend gave me a drive in their | Model 3. The difference in sensor interpretation quality was | massive compared to what I see back home. That gave me hope of | my aging Model 3 still seeing improvements... But also a | nagging suspicion that Tesla may have spent a lot of manual | effort on data labeling and heuristics for LA roads | specifically, and the results may not be easily scalable | elsewhere. | chroma wrote: | The difference in FSD behavior is due to the EU's laws on | autonomous vehicles. The EU mandates maximum lateral | acceleration, lane change times, and many other details that | make for a worse (and less safe) driving experience. | BonoboIO wrote: | Could you explain why the limits make the experience less | safe. | | Less lateral acceleration should mean more safety, or I m | wrong? | ifdefdebug wrote: | Now why would the EU mandate details that make for a less | safe driving? You are implying they are either malicious or | stunningly incompetent. | 221qqwe wrote: | > stunningly incompetent | | Not stunningly, just moderately. But generally yes, | that's a good description for EU bureaucrats. | smabie wrote: | Government stunningly incompetent? Who would have | thought.. | omgwtfbyobbq wrote: | It will likely take a while because there is a difference. | I'm not sure if it's manual effort or just having more data | in certain regions. | | When I first got into the beta, it wasn't great, but has | improved significantly since then. | adsfgiodsnrio wrote: | So, in the absolute best-case scenario cherry-picked from | thousands of videos, Tesla's system is capable of going | _twenty-five miles_ without making dangerous mistakes. | | I agree the comparison is laughable. | karaterobot wrote: | Skeptical but genuine question here: if Tesla's Level 3 system | is more advanced, why don't they have authorization to release | it? And why does the article quote Tesla as saying they only | have a level 2 system? | jeremyjh wrote: | They aren't pursuing it, and stopped publicly reporting | disengagement data. They found out their stans are happy to | buy the cars and use FSD without liability protection or | safety data, so why bother? Whenever one crashes it's the | driver's fault by definition. | iknowstuff wrote: | Yea you will struggle to find a single video of drive pilot | where it's not driven by a representative from Mercedes. | | In those, you can see the system disengage the second it | doesn't have a vehicle to follow at slow speeds right in front | of it (like when the vehicle ahead changes lanes). | | Useless. | wonnage wrote: | Tesla FSD is a marketing gimmick | croes wrote: | They are all heavily limited. | | But FSD isn't even necessary to help, an autonomous | acceleration and follow mode for all cars on traffic lights and | in traffic jams would already have huge benefits. | olliej wrote: | So it can only be used on highways with a 40mph speed limit??? | :D | hristov wrote: | Even considering its heavy limitations, the Mercedes system is | miles better than the Tesla, because it is actually useful. You | can actually turn on the system and do your email, or take a | nap. Yes, the 40 mph limitation on highways seems to make it | useless, but many highways get congested to the point where you | are not going over 40 mph anyways, and those are the times when | it is most frustrating to drive. | | And regarding the FSD, most youtube videos I have seen run into | human intervention within 20 minutes or so. Going 60 minutes | without human intervention is certainly possible if you get a | bit lucky but that does not mean you should take your eyes off | the road for a second. FSD still has to be constantly | supervised, which makes it of very limited utility. At this | stage it is still a fun experiment at most. | iknowstuff wrote: | Now try to look up videos of Mercedes' L3 system in operation | and you'll see how hilarious this claim is. It shuts off | immediately without a vehicle to follow in front of you. Good | luck taking a nap and typing emails. L3 my ass. | BoorishBears wrote: | You're not allowed to sleep, you need to take control | within 10-15 seconds. | | And no, it doesn't turn off if there are no vehicles in | front, but it does turn off above 45 MPH. On most highways | you'll only be below 45 because of traffic. | | Above 45 they have a separate L2 system that requires | "normal" attentiveness. | thegrim33 wrote: | "do your email, or take a nap" <- The definition of an SAE | Level 3 system is that you must remain in the seat, prepared | to take control immediately when the system requests you to. | Taking a nap or otherwise not paying attention is not what | such a system supports. | torginus wrote: | Afaik the key differentiator of a L3 and a L2 system is | that if you don't take control when the system requests you | to, the L3 system can safely stop/pull aside while all bets | are off with an L2 system. | GuB-42 wrote: | I guess it is not ok to be asleep as even a loud alarm will | take time to wake you up, but not paying attention, like | when you are doing your email is fine. In fact, that's the | entire point of level 3 autonomy. | | You are "on call" rather than "at work", so you must be | prepared to act when the car rings. If the car doesn't | ring, you are free to do whatever you want as long as you | can hear the ring and take back control when it happens. | dkjaudyeqooe wrote: | > prepared to take control immediately | | I don't think that's correct. I've seen "in a certain | amount of time" but you make it sound like it's a safety | issue, which it's not, that being a key differentiation | from a L2 system. When it can't drive it stops driving and | you have to drive. If it's not a safety issue you could | conceivably bee sleeping, as long as you can wake up in a | timely manner. | | The SAE makes it clear that the car is driving at L3, and | on that basis you would expect the transition to another | driver would be graceful, just like with two human drivers. | olex wrote: | That "certain amount of time" is variable, but in | practice is on the level of 10-15 seconds for the | Mercedes system - at least that's what it was when it was | first certified in Germany some time ago. It is designed | to let you take your hands off the wheel and look at the | scenery, but anything more than that is too much | distraction for when it requires you to take over. And it | will, because it's really not very capable at all - it's | basically an advanced traffic jam autopilot that can | follow other cars in a straight well marked line, that's | it. | dkjaudyeqooe wrote: | What would be great is the SAE tightened the definitions | so there were standards of performance, maybe with | different quality sublevels within each. | [deleted] | hristov wrote: | For person like me that takes very light naps when | sitting, 10 seconds is plenty to wake up and take | control. Also if I am using a tablet doing email or | browsing or even playing games, 10 seconds is plenty of | time to put the tablet away and grab the wheel. | rl3 wrote: | > _For person like me that takes very light naps when | sitting, 10 seconds is plenty to wake up and take | control._ | | I'd argue that isn't remotely enough time to safely take | control. You're betting your brain wakes up sufficiently | in that time, and if it doesn't the consequences are | potentially deadly. | | > _Also if I am using a tablet doing email or browsing or | even playing games, 10 seconds is plenty of time to put | the tablet away and grab the wheel._ | | That's a bit better from an alertness standpoint, but not | from a situational awareness one. You're deprived of both | context and situational awareness on the road. | | Some key details extend far beyond a 10-15 seconds, such | as: another car driving erratically, lanes ending, line | of sight on pedestrians or cyclists visible prior that | are now occluded by traffic. The list goes on. | cscurmudgeon wrote: | > And regarding the FSD, most youtube videos I have seen run | into human intervention within 20 minutes or so. Going 60 | minutes without human intervention is certainly possible if | you get a bit lucky but that does not mean you should take | your eyes off the road for a second. FSD still has to be | constantly supervised, which makes it of very limited | utility. At this stage it is still a fun experiment at most. | | Are there equivalent videos for Mercedes? | FormerBandmate wrote: | Autopilot works fine in highways under 40 miles per hour. You | still pay some attention but that's also true with this, if | traffic goes above 40 mph you have to take control in 2 | seconds while Autopilot is more gradual | qwytw wrote: | > This seems like a marketing gimmick by Mercedes at best; the | two technologies aren't even in the same league. | | You might be right or not but gave zero arguments in your | comment. The fact that these safety/regulatory restrictions | exist does not mean the system is not more capable. | hn_throwaway_99 wrote: | Can you explain how - Must be under 40 mph | - Only during the daylight and only on certain highways - | CANNOT be operated on city/country streets | | doesn't exclude all roads? Where I live, highways all have a | speed limit of 65-75 mph, and all streets with a speed limit of | 40 or below are city our county roads. So where can you | actually use this? | iknowstuff wrote: | It does. The system is useless. Not all freeways are even | allowed. | onion2k wrote: | In a traffic jam. Which is most of LAs roads at least some of | the time. | FormerBandmate wrote: | From what it sounds like, when you are in a traffic jam you | use it and then the second that traffic jam ends you | immediately have to take control. | | Ngl that sounds like it requires more attention than | autopilot, if you're not doing anything and then have to take | full control that sounds like it could lead to an absurdly | unsafe outcome | barbariangrunge wrote: | We've actually had nearly self driving vehicles for over a | century. They're called trains. We should invest in some. The | navigation problem gets way easier | andylynch wrote: | Most trains are far from self driving; training to operate one | is easily 6-12 months work, depending on the line, with strict | licensing as well. | Spivak wrote: | Driverless trains are actually a pretty new thing, being on | tracks is not as set/forget as people assume. | | If you mean "transportation where I'm not driving" then sure | but taxis also fit that bill. | brooke2k wrote: | Proportionally, they are far, far closer to self driving even | with multiple people driving the train. A ratio of just 1:100 | drivers:passengers is a vast improvement on personal cars | which would probably be what, 1:1? Maybe 1:2 on average? | katbyte wrote: | Sky train in Vancouver bc has been driverless for near 40 | years now | DanielVZ wrote: | Subway trains have been able to be autonomous since at least | a decade. | masswerk wrote: | Paris Metro introduced driverless on all their MP 55 train | sets in 1967. | Longhanks wrote: | Do you have a train station in front of your house and any | target destination you can imagine wanting to go to? Because | most people don't. | rdlw wrote: | Do you have a self driving car? Because no one does. | panick21_ wrote: | Maybe the all the money invested in self driving and EV | insentives and insane highways and stroads maybe you could | afford decent public transit. | berkes wrote: | Yes. And yes. | | I live in the Netherlands and we have this. Because it is | what people want and need. And because it's been invested in | for decades. And because it has a way higher ROI than car | infra. | yread wrote: | Well the road infra has also been invested in heavily. | Dutch highways are the best | berkes wrote: | Yup. It's not an either/or as many seem to think. Public | Transport works best in addition and next to cars, bikes, | and such. It's mixing and combining that offers the true | value. | PartiallyTyped wrote: | Maybe if we built more of those, more people would be within | walking distance of them. | ImprobableTruth wrote: | Trains for local transportation make no sense. Trams for | high-throughput and buses for everything else is the only | sensible thing for local public transport. | mitthrowaway2 wrote: | Works well in Japan. | umanwizard wrote: | > Trains for local transportation make no sense. | | Plenty of people take trains for local transportation | every day. | PartiallyTyped wrote: | Trams and metros however are quite reasonable. | megaman821 wrote: | Headlines like this really speed up the decline of media. While | it is factual it really exploits what a common person would | interpret the headline to mean. Tesla is exploring autonomous | driving on most roads and conditions. L3 autonomous driving is | not binary, you can get it at certain times, in certain places, | under certain weather conditions yet the comparison is anchoring | it to a system that isn't aiming to operate under those | constraints. So the headline is taking a decent accomplishment | for Mercedes and turning into catnip for Tesla haters. | simondotau wrote: | [flagged] | dmbche wrote: | I doubt so, I think in the guidelines Meta comments are not | encouraged as they are not fruitful for conversation. | simondotau wrote: | I appreciate your contribution but I disagree that it's any | more "meta" to respond to the community's unwritten | reactions (votes) than responding to its written reactions | (normal replies). | dmbche wrote: | Oh I was refering to your comment on the editorialisation | of the title, since it's not a comment on the subject of | the article but on the writing of it's title. Not a dig, | just an observation. | simondotau wrote: | Oh, I misunderstood. Still, I'd argue that in a world | where most people who eyeball the headline don't read the | article, _the headline is the story._ And thus discussing | whether the headline leaves a misleading impression is | fair game -- and not at all meta. | dmbche wrote: | I'm not a fan of tesla, but not a fan of self driving over all. | This headline just tells me that benz is the first to be | selling legal automatic driving cars in California, something I | assumed Tesla was doing. I found it enlightening. | | Non technical people would probably assume that Tesla already | has this, since we hear about it all the time, and that this is | Benz getting up to speed - while it's not the case at all and | Benz is beating the largest competitor in the market. | | I think this is a fair title. | belter wrote: | Mercedes achieves Level 3, while putting their money and | responsibility, behind what is a life and death scenario. Tesla | fans call it "decent". It's worst than a religion..it's a cult. | megaman821 wrote: | Address nothing about the misleading headline. Call the | person that points it out as part of a cult. Maybe you should | take a harder look at yourself. | justapassenger wrote: | Mercedes shipped a system that's legally self driving, under | some set of conditions. | | Tesla sells system that's not legally self driving under any | set of conditions. You're always driving, and Tesla will fight | you in court if you want them to take liability for any action | it took. | | There's nothing misleading about this headline. | simondotau wrote: | All of that is technically correct but isn't the point the OP | was making. These are products with wildly different | aspirations and at different stages of achieving those | aspirations. | justapassenger wrote: | Yes. One product works and other doesn't. | | And one that doesn't work is better and for sure will | improve and work in the future? And one that does work | won't improve? | simondotau wrote: | I don't know who you're replying to, because that's | certainly nothing to do with what I said. | zaroth wrote: | It's bizarre and absurd to claim a system that's driven | _billions_ of miles "doesn't work". | | I really like how Simondotau put it. These are wildly | different systems. Benchmarks can always be rigged and I | see this move by Mercedes no differently. | | Having failed to compete with Tesla on actual self | driving technology, they concocted a minimally useful | system that could check a box in their marketing | material. Mercedes, here, is an ostrich. | | My primary benchmark for how useful the system is would | be how many passenger-miles its driven. We'll be waiting | a long time for Mercedes to be bragging about that | metric. | justapassenger wrote: | Because it's very very simple. One system is self driving | and other isn't, no matter how you try to spin it. | zaroth wrote: | One is a universal L2 autonomous driving system and one | highly limited L3 autonomous driving system. They are | both considered forms of autonomous driving. | | [1] - https://www.synopsys.com/automotive/autonomous- | driving-level... | justapassenger wrote: | One legally drives the car for you. Other doesn't. | zaroth wrote: | Actually they are both legally autonomously driving | according to SAE. You should read up on it! | | "SAE International is the world's leading authority in | mobility standards development." Forgive me if I'll take | their internationally recognized standards over your | characterization. | | Certainly only one of the systems accepts liability for | accidents while it's enabled, but liability for accidents | is just one component of autonomous driving, and not the | most important one. | | The most important one is clearly the percentage | availability of the system across varying roads and | conditions. | | An L3 or L4 system that is geofenced to work on a few | miles of select private roads might be a "world first" | while simultaneously being of little practical value. | | In essence, a pissing contest or vanity metric. | justapassenger wrote: | Ok, you've convinced me. I'll go drive in FSD Tesla and | be certain that you and Musk will personally guarantee | safety of it and pickup the bill if something happens. | | Also, please actually go read the standard, and talk | about design intent, and which main way to differentiate | the systems. | as-j wrote: | The actual title is: | | > Germans beat Tesla to autonomous L3 driving in the Golden State | | Which mashed a lot more sense since Waymo, Cruise and Zoox all | have L4 autonomous cars on the road today in California operating | with no human inside at all. | jjmorrison wrote: | such clickbait | sidcool wrote: | Seems like a mistaken title. The limitations are so significant, | it can't be called autonomous driving. | elif wrote: | Level 2 FULL self driving is way harder of a problem than | location limited, condition limited, maneuver limited, speed | limited level 3 so to me it is hilarious to call Tesla beat in | any sense of the word. | | 40mph single lane travel during clear skies and daytime down | certain highways can be done by any number of naive driver | assistants from many manufacturers. Tesla's autopilot from 2015 | could certainly accomplish that, let alone the 2023 FSD versions. | The only thing Mercedes has accomplished here is ambitious | paperwork. | justapassenger wrote: | You really think there's no engineering difference between | system that's designed to actively kill you, and others if you | don't pay attention vs system that's designed not to do it, and | company putting their money behind that statement? | elif wrote: | You really think Mercedes legal filings guarantee a safer | system? It is more important to focus on the technical | capabilities of the systems than who can add more asterisks | to their crash statistics. | | You are comparing a mature system with billions of miles of | testing to a system which you will struggle to keep engaged | for 2 mile intervals. | wahnfrieden wrote: | Tesla FSD is not mature, it's just old | justapassenger wrote: | Ok, let's focus on the technical aspects. | | Tesla has no safety life cycle process and as a result FSD | is inherently unsafe, from the engineering point of view. | | You can try to hand wave over that, but if you are an | engineer working on the safety critical systems (it's an | actual engineering field), that's all you need to know | about FSD. | fallingknife wrote: | You are not actually focusing on technical aspects. You | are focusing on regulatory credentials and bureaucratic | process. Focusing on technical aspects would mean looking | at actual data from on road performance. | justapassenger wrote: | Design process and lifecycle of the product and | development is not a technical aspect only at startups | building apps to share cat photos. | elif wrote: | How will you discretely identify every problem to be | solved in the domain of live real drivers in real world | conditions? Applying a model of an industrial plant where | machines interface with machines, and occasionally humans | in prescribed and orderly functions, will not get you any | closer to safety. | | What will get you closer to safety is insanely large | corpus of real world data being trained on in a | continuous feedback loop. | justapassenger wrote: | Ask Boeing how ignoring it works out. | jeremyjh wrote: | Which Boeing execs ended their career in disgrace after | killing hundreds of people in pursuit of lower training | costs ? | rdlw wrote: | Dennis Muilenburg. | | 189 people: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Air_Flight_610 | | 157 people: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Air | lines_Flight_30... | | That's 346 people killed. | | Here's an article about his being fired in disgrace after | this: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/23/business/Boeing- | ceo-muile... | jeremyjh wrote: | Wow, totally missed anyone at all was held accountable | for that. It's not much but something at least. | pnw wrote: | I tried to buy the Mercedes EQS with that feature. All the | dealers had a $50k markup , you had to wait months for delivery | and most of the cool features in their marketing were not | available due to parts shortages. | | So call me skeptical... | ryanwaggoner wrote: | Skeptical? Because it's so popular that it's very hard to get? | empiricus wrote: | popular would mean at least 100k-1mil. is this mercedes | really popular like this? | hef19898 wrote: | Tesla's sell at 100k - 1 mil mark up? | frenchman99 wrote: | I think they mean 100k to 1 million units sold | sixQuarks wrote: | I love reading the mental gymnastics the anti-Elon folks in here | are doing to actually believe Mercedes has beat Tesla in | autonomous driving. | claudiug wrote: | because is not like that? | kbos87 wrote: | What exactly do people think it means when Mercedes says they | will "take liability"? Decisions about whether to prosecute a | driver when something bad happens are local and state level | decisions. Mercedes can't protect you when a local prosecutor | decides to say "yeah level 3, whatever, you were behind the | wheel." | belter wrote: | That was handled in Germany by changing existing laws. I would | imagine equivalent laws were made or are being prepared for | California and Nevada. | | "Germany will be the world leader in autonomous driving" - | https://bmdv.bund.de/SharedDocs/EN/Articles/DG/act-on-autono... | | "...The Autonomous Driving Act took effect in Germany on July | 28, 2021, introducing significant and comprehensive amendments | to the German Road Traffic Law..." - | https://www.ippi.org.il/germany-autonomous-driving-act/ | | Law here (German): | https://bmdv.bund.de/SharedDocs/DE/Anlage/Gesetze/Gesetze-19... | toast0 wrote: | Well, they can provide a rigorous criminal defense, perhaps. | | But I don't think there's a lot of criminal prosecutions for | driving on highways at speeds under 40 mph. | jupp0r wrote: | I assume they can only take over civil, not criminal liability. | Vespasian wrote: | As another user posted at least in Germany the laws were | changed to account for this. | oblio wrote: | "Slow and steady" better than "move fast and break things"? :-) | seydor wrote: | break people | ajross wrote: | Define better? A Tesla will do exactly the same thing[1] and | just nag you every few minutes to tug on the steering wheel | (those nags are getting rarer every release as the driver | monitoring camera improves, FWIW). The Mercedes driver can have | their hands doing other things, but still needs their eyes out | of the cockpit because the second traffic speeds up to 40mph | they need to take over. | | In practice, this is "Level 3", but only within an ephemeral | subset of driving conditions that aren't going to be consistent | enough for you actually exploit that autonomy. | | [1] Actually much more, obviously, but it at least does this. | zaroth wrote: | People forget the status quo is millions of deaths and | trillions in property and economic damages. Moving slow | condemns millions more to die. | qwytw wrote: | Those millions (especially in developed countries where the | per capita number of accidents is highest) won't be able to | buy Teslas anyway. | | Statically you could decrease the number of deaths by | 20-30% by just banning cars older than 10 years. There are | some other (cheaper) things that can be done as well. | HDThoreaun wrote: | 40k+ people die per year in car accidents in the US alone. I | would say "move fast and break less things" is better. | waffleiron wrote: | We can get that to 60k! | oblio wrote: | You know how you could REALLY fix that? | | 1. Actual car checks everywhere. I've seen some crazy cars in | the US that would be impounded ASAP in most of Europe. | | 2. Add pedestrian safety requirements for new cars, which | would practically ban tall cars (trucks and SUVs) except for | professional use. | | 3. Something for smartphones, not really sure about the best | attack angle. | | This "might not ever happen" self driving shtick is just | moving the goalpost into the middle of nowhere. | olliej wrote: | Does Mercedes accept liability for any crashes that occur while | its system is in control? | porphyra wrote: | ... only when driving under 40 mph on highways. So it is pretty | useless. | | The main thing is that Mercedes Benz will take liability for | anything that goes wrong. But the system as a whole is far less | capable than Tesla FSD. | ethanbond wrote: | > but the system as a whole is far less capable than Tesla FSD, | the renowned "exaggerator" told me so | | We actually have no idea what Benz et al.'s systems are capable | of if they were to deploy them with the same recklessness as | Tesla. | zaroth wrote: | This statement makes no logical sense. Their systems are | "capable of" what they can be used to achieve in actual | operation. | | It's not like it's this massively sophisticated system for | FSD with most of the code commented out. | | These are purpose-built and heavily tested to a | _specification_ - that's how engineering works. The Mercedes | system specification is extremely limited in practice, but | gives them the marketing win of being able to claim they do | L3. | adsfgiodsnrio wrote: | Tesla's system can be used to achieve _nothing_ in actual | operation. It makes constant mistakes and requires an ever- | vigilant human to take over in a fraction of a second when | it does. There is no advantage over manual driving, let | alone manual driving with modern driver assistance. | ethanbond wrote: | Systems that are required to have ~100% performance within | an operational design domain generally have more than 0% | performance beyond that domain. | | For example, Tesla FSD seems like a pretty good highway | cruise control, but it can be dangerously deployed in city | driving too. Of course this is a little difficult to argue | about since AFAIK Tesla has never defined its ODD and their | lead autopilot software guy said in his deposition that he | didn't even know what an ODD was? | | I suppose one man's "marketing win" to "claim" L3 is | another man's "actually deploying L3." | zaroth wrote: | I maintain that the Mercedes system is "capable of" what | it can functionally be deployed to achieve by a user. | That's what "capable of" means. If Mercedes wants to try | its hand at a universal L2 system, I wish them the best. | This system is in truth _not capable_ of L2 or L3 | autonomous driving under almost all typical driving | conditions. There is a small geofenced and speed | constrained window under which the car will lane-keep and | TACC without requiring hands-on-wheel. To me, that's what | we call a "gimmick". | | An autonomous system which cannot even change lanes | should not - in my opinion - be classified as L3 | Autonomy. Not only is it a gimmick, it's basically a | loophole in the spec. | | As an aside, since you mentioned it, I think that | describing FSD as "pretty good highway cruise control" is | gaslighting. | | Describing FSD as dangerously deployed in city driving is | merely misinformed. In fact FSD (including the human | driver and FSD's comprehensive attention tracking and | alerting) is safer than the average driver in city | driving. | | https://www.tesla.com/impact | qwytw wrote: | Well Mercedes does supposedly offer a L2 system. Why do | you say it doesn't? | ethanbond wrote: | I'm not sure what you're even trying to argue here. You | disagree with SAE's designations? Interesting trivia I | guess. | | Anyway I'm sure Tesla will say it's Level 3 whenever it's | Level 3. Would've thought that was a while back when they | marketed, sold, and rolled out "Full Self Driving" on | public roads. | dmbche wrote: | That's all enforced by the government, it's not a limitation of | the system. They might be comfortable with liability for more | than this but are not allowed to by regulators - which is wise | zaroth wrote: | It literally is a "limitation of the system". | dmbche wrote: | The implied system is Benz's autodriving. You seem to refer | to "society" as a system. Clever, but not really fruitful. | zaroth wrote: | I wasn't trying to be cheeky. I must have misunderstood | your comment? | | As I understand it the L3 system is limited to limited | access highway roads, < 40mph, and no lane changes. Those | are its limitations, and I believe they are self-imposed | by Mercedes, not any US regulations. | dmbche wrote: | "Regardless of those capabilities, the California DMV is | placing some serious restrictions on the Merc system. It | can only operate during the day on certain limited roads, | and only at speeds of up to 40 miles per hour. The system | will be usable on California highways in the Bay Area, | Central Valley, Los Angeles, Sacramento and San Diego, as | well as on Interstate 15 between southern California and | Nevada, where the autopilot was approved for use in | January." | | This indicates to me the limitations come from regulators | and not the manufacturer but I might be wrong. | HDThoreaun wrote: | People spend years of their life going under 40 on the highway | in LA. This seems huge in socal. | elif wrote: | Only on CERTAIN highways if it's daytime and it's not raining. | oblio wrote: | > The main thing is that Mercedes Benz will take liability for | anything that goes wrong. But the system as a whole is far less | capable than Tesla FSD. | | "It's less capable except for the minor fact that if we | <<kill>> someone, it's <<our fault, not yours>>". | | You know, that minor factor called "life or death". | | > ... only when driving under 40 mph on highways. So it is | pretty useless. | | If Waymo/Tesla/whatever would do this, they'd be the darlings | of the internet. | | If Mercedes does this, no one thinks: "ah, it's the first | iteration, they can you know, <<increase>> the speed later on". | kelnos wrote: | If the local DA decides to prosecute you after your car kills | someone, there is nothing Mercedes can do for you. This | liability they are assuming must be civil only. | sidibe wrote: | > If Waymo/Tesla/whatever would do this, they'd be the | darlings of the internet. | | How exactly do you think Waymo works that they wouldn't take | responsibility? | neysofu wrote: | Waymo takes responsibility for all accidents and Tesla is | able to drive autonomously at 40km/h on highways, but | neither does _both_. Mercedes does. That 's -I believe- the | point that parent is making. | | Now, I'd argue that Waymo has probably somewhat solved | highways already as they're much simpler than city driving, | they're just not offering it to the public yet. | belter wrote: | Also known as "draw the rest of the owl" | oblio wrote: | Mercedes has drawn a lot more of the owl than anyone else. | Accepting liability is huge. | | It's putting their money where their mouth is. | | Musk is putting his mouth on a lot of things, I guess that | makes him a baby? | sidibe wrote: | At least they started with an owl shape. Tesla is starting | with a square before "draw the rest of the owl" | diebeforei485 wrote: | You aren't going to kill people while going under 40mph on a | highway (cars only, no pedestrians) anyway. Under 40mph is | like stop and go traffic. | | This is a marketing stunt. They've taken a well-solved | problem (stop and go) and taken responsibility for it, and | getting headlines by screaming something about J3016 level 3. | Arainach wrote: | A highway is any public road per legal definition. | https://law.justia.com/codes/california/2022/code- | veh/divisi... | | 40mph is more than enough to kill someone. | zaroth wrote: | "Limited access highway" is a different thing, and that's | the roads this system will engage on. Zero pedestrians, | unless you know, a climate protest is shutting it down. | fallingknife wrote: | Changing who holds liability does not make the system more or | less capable. Think about it. Was Mercedes system any less | capable the day before they declared it L3 than the day | before? Clearly not. It was the same system. | | If you want to convince me that their system is way more | capable than Tesla, you would have to show me evidence that | Tesla FSD fails in the same limited environment as Mercedes | is certified L3 in, and I have not seen any. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-06-10 23:00 UTC)