[HN Gopher] Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech g... ___________________________________________________________________ Submarine missing near Titanic used a $30 Logitech gamepad for steering Author : isaacfrond Score : 126 points Date : 2023-06-20 17:50 UTC (5 hours ago) (HTM) web link (arstechnica.com) (TXT) w3m dump (arstechnica.com) | rwmj wrote: | There's a BBC documentary from last year which I just watched: | | https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0fpz9zw | | and honestly a lot of it seems quite amateur hour. One of the | steering motors was fitted backwards. When they discovered this, | at the bottom of the ocean and a few hundred feet from Titanic, | the solution they used was to hold the gamepad at right angles to | compensate. That time they proceeded with the tour and made it | back, but I can see how things could have gone a lot more wrong. | CryptoBanker wrote: | The founder/CEO has said that he hasn't been on a single trip | where everything went to plan... | jmount wrote: | Wow, everything working should be the goal- not a mere nice | to have. | TX81Z wrote: | Stop being such a nerd! There's an old boat in the water | that sank because of hubris, let's go see what we can | learn! | | (Lesson learned the hard way) | medellin wrote: | This is what happens when you take the move fast and break | things culture to anything where people die when things | break. Really just sad and so stupid. | proggy wrote: | It is simply unbelievable that the company was even able to get | to the point of diving to such depths with humans aboard. If | they had encountered a program-destroying but non-catastrophic | failure earlier on, it is possible we wouldn't be looking at | one of the many horrific outcomes that this incident will | likely resolve to. | | Looking at the accounts reported to date, the OceanGate | engineering culture was basically non-existent. Their test | program was extremely lightweight to say the least, and the | results that came back from what little hull testing they did | do were ignored, resulting in the dismissal of an internal | whistleblower [1]. We also learned that there were flammable | materials within the pressure vessel, no practical contingency | plan to speak of, no emergency beacon fitted, the list goes on. | The whole thing was just cobbled together, not fully thought | out or vetted, and yet the intent was to journey to one of the | most unforgiving environments imaginable. | | But getting back to the account of the reversed motor above -- | it is one of the purest examples I can now think of where life | imitates art. Piloting a stolen (but seaworthy) deep-sea | submersible to the wreckage of the Titanic -- that was only | able to make right-hand turns due to a "sub club" anti-theft | device -- was a major plot point in the pilot episode of the TV | series "Pinky and the Brain". Narf. | | [1] https://newrepublic.com/post/173802/missing-titanic-sub- | face... | gsanderson wrote: | Ah, I remember watching that travel show episode. It takes on a | whole new perspective now. | anigbrowl wrote: | How do you not test this at the bottom of a harbor rather than | in prod. | TX81Z wrote: | To quote bill oreilly, "Fuck it! We'll do it live!" | sho_hn wrote: | The German publication Der Spiegel has an interview up with a | tourist who visited the _Titanic_ on the same vessel. | sabujp wrote: | My kids play with these controllers a few times a week, the | latency is horrible and it's easy to accidentally hit the mode | button which causes directional control to shift from the left | joystick to the directional pad. The user can also switching | between d and x mode and that would also cause the controller to | stop working. | J_cst wrote: | My 11yo son asked me why they did not connect a buoy to the | submarine with a string. Lol | parshimers wrote: | don't they do this with crab pots? i'm not sure how far those | go down though. | BrentOzar wrote: | > don't they do this with crab pots? i'm not sure how far | those go down though. | | Looks like at most, about half a mile: https://en.wikipedia.o | rg/wiki/Alaskan_king_crab_fishing#Equi... | HL33tibCe7 wrote: | I guess perhaps there'd be a risk of the string getting tangled | in the wreckage of the Titanic. | | But then surely you could just cut the rope and free the | vessel. | | I think your son is onto something! | orangepurple wrote: | Do the math exercise with him for how much volume 2 miles of | string takes up | [deleted] | madaxe_again wrote: | You're aware of ROVs? They usually communicate with an | umbilical, which is considerably fatter than a piece of | string. It's deployed from the surface vessel, not from the | ROV. The same could just as easily apply. | rhyst wrote: | Using 9mm diameter semi static climbing rope as an example. | | For volume: Volume of 4km of rope is 0.009^2 _3.14_ 4000 = | 1.02m^2 which seems like an amount that would fit on a large | spool on a ship. | | For weight: rope itself weighs about 60g per meter so | 0.06*4000=230kg of rope. It has a breaking strength of 22kN, | which is roughly 2000kg static load. Given everything is | probably roughly neutrally buoyant seems like enough. | | Not saying its practical but it seems like the actual | volume/weight of rope would not be a problem. | gcanyon wrote: | I haven't checked your math, but your volume should have a | ^3 on it, not a ^2 | thehappypm wrote: | Seems doable to be honest--huge spools of undersea cables are | deployed on ships all the time. | | A spool 20 feet wide has a circumference of ~60 feet, and 3 | miles of cable is ~15,000 feet, so 250 loops around the | spool. Seems doable. | Flammy wrote: | Do the math for the weight of a string 2 miles long. | | Then take a look at how much weight a string can hold up. | | Then you're ready to be taking on space elevators | someweirdperson wrote: | > Do the math for the weight of a string 2 miles long. | | There are materials that are a bit more dense and others a | bit less dense than water. It should be possible to craft a | string with a "weight" of zero, when submerged. | [deleted] | flangola7 wrote: | Weight and mass are not the same. | jcrash wrote: | Good question! | [deleted] | srmarm wrote: | The US Navy uses an Xbox 360 controller in active service [0] | | Mass market has a lot of R&D to leverage so it makes sense. | Nothing to say this is the cause of the fault and probably going | to be more reliable than something hand rolled. | | [0] https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/19/16333376/us-navy- | military... | WhereIsTheTruth wrote: | > Mass market has a lot of R&D to leverage so it makes sense. | Nothing to say this is the cause of the fault and probably | going to be more reliable than something hand rolled. | | Consumer grade products aren't built to last, they are built to | be cheap so they can sell them to actual consumers | | We all know how the military ends up using these consumer grade | products; lobbying, aka deep state corruption "if that happens | in a foreign country" | | Hololens didn't find commercial success, yet ended up with the | military, soldiers weren't happy when it was time to use the | actual consumer grade product ;) | | > 'The devices would have gotten us killed.' | | https://www.theverge.com/2022/10/13/23402195/microsoft-us-ar... | dragontamer wrote: | > Consumer grade products aren't built to last, they are | built to be cheap so they can sell them to actual consumers | | Video game gamepads are probably some of the most well | designed pieces of equipment I know of, with each part having | a guaranteed lifetime of clicks and/or swipes, and other such | details. | | Video gamers are really obsessive over these details. It | wouldn't be surprising to me if the latest hall-effect sensor | joypads are the best durability in the world for thumbpads. | | That being said: a cheap Logitech controller would be an old | potentiometer-based controller with far less durability. I'm | sure if I asked around, someone out there knows the | specifications and would know when to regularly replace that | gamepad after X-hours of use (and I'd expect X-hours to be in | excess of 1000 hours, maybe even 10,000+ hours, even for a | gamepad like that) | | ---------- | | I think where video gamers are getting wow'd is that... they | weren't using like a brand-name controller here. $30 Logitech | is low-end. Video gamers know which controllers to rely upon. | | Bottom of the barrel $30 Logitech is barely something I feel | good about giving to a friend during a gaming session, let | alone a life-or-death equipment choice for steering a | submarine. You get far more reliable, higher-quality gamepads | at the $50 or even $80 levels. | | I don't think video gamers would be hating on these guys if | they used... I dunno... an 8bitdo + GuliKit Hall Effect | controller. We'd all be like "Oh yeah, that's quality stuff" | (the Bluetooth is unreliable but I assume some kind of wired | version is available somewhere...) | | The top end joysticks used in video game tournaments for | maximum reliability are easily $200+. | kayodelycaon wrote: | > Consumer grade products aren't built to last, they are | built to be cheap so they can sell them to actual consumers | | They are so cheap you can carry a lot of spares. Controllers | get pretty well abused by gamers, so they aren't exactly | fragile. | iepathos wrote: | xbox 360 controllers last only 6 months to a couple years with | various failures that don't matter when you're playing a video | game with them but can actually get you killed if they fail | when you're in deep ocean. These are not ok for controls in | vehicles where failure can mean everyone onboard dies. The navy | does not use these for critical system controls. They were | never built or tested for that. | holoduke wrote: | They do for drones. But plenty of spares available. | cpleppert wrote: | The Xbox controllers are used to control the periscope which is | not a safety critical device. Regardless, the navy uses wired | controllers and did extensive testing and verification. This | outfit didn't do anything like that; in one video with a | journalist the bluetooth controller was a 'feature' because | they could pass it around the sub. | EddieJLSH wrote: | US UAV/Drones use xbox controllers too | mey wrote: | There was video floating around of a machine gun turret | being remote controlled using the Valve Steamdeck in | Ukraine. | | https://www.tomshardware.com/news/steam-deck-controls-a- | real... | | Edit: consumer joysticks normally use potentiometers, which | aren't great for deadzones/drift. For things like dust | incursion reasons along it would make sense for any | industrial/military device to be using hall effect based | joysticks. | MSFT_Edging wrote: | Unmanned, if anything a controller failing will save some | lives. | giantg2 wrote: | Unmanned, and they have logic to autopilot in most cases. | mustacheemperor wrote: | Worth noting they use the controller to steer the periscope, | not the sub. A component failure there has a significantly | smaller risk to human life. | srmarm wrote: | Oh absolutely and probably with a manual backup too. | Frost1x wrote: | Or you know, another $30 controller or two. I know space is | limited but it shouldn't be too much to have a little | redundancy on controller systems. | dragonwriter wrote: | > The US Navy uses an Xbox 360 controller in active service | | To control periscopes ("photonics masts"), and some other | equipment, not for primary control of manned vehicles, that I | can find any indication of. | dataviz1000 wrote: | The YouTube channel SmarterEveryDay was invited to film on an | Ohio class nuclear submarine training in the Arctic. [0] You | can see how many of the system are mechanical and not | electronic in the demonstration especially the ballast | controls. Most if not all boats and ships can control the | throttle mechanically so if the boat loses its electronics | such as a wave smashing the windshield in, it is still | possible to control the rudder and throttles. I was very | surprised at the lack if mechanical controls on the | recreational submarine. | | [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFJnWp1tAdU | [deleted] | tredre3 wrote: | I personally believe using mass market makes sense. I don't | understand the criticism I've seen on this website for using | off the shelf controllers or camping lights (what do you | expect, an LED strip magically engineered by a large | aeronautics firm specifically for the sub? and what would that | change?). | | That being said, the difference between a Microsoft controller | and a third party is that Microsoft very certainly did a tons | of reliability and durability testing on their controllers (and | it shows). You don't get that with a cheap third party. So I | can understand to a degree why people are questioning the | decision to not pay the extra 20 bucks and get microsoft gear. | Strom wrote: | Logitech has orders of magnitude more experience in | manufacturing peripherals than Microsoft. That said, Logitech | does make products in a wide price range and the low end | isn't competitive with their own high end. | DanHulton wrote: | "Low end" and "high end" in the gaming market doesn't | necessarily equate to "reliability," however. "Style" and | "customizability" are very high on the differentiators | between low/high for gaming peripherals, neither of which | are necessary on a sub. | | The reviews for the controller (mentioned by name in the | article, so easy to look up) are generally great (4.2/5 | with thousands of reviews), and the 1/2-star reviews are as | frequently about ergonomic issues as they are about | reliability. Every batch of controllers is going to have | some unreliable ones, so the fact that that doesn't stand | out as the common complaint dragging the reviews down says | something. | | A lot of the rest of the choices for the sub sound sus, but | not bothering to splurge on a game controller that cycles | RGB is not worthy of a headline, IMO. | Retric wrote: | It's not about having a RGB controller, it's the fact you | can get a COTS controller built for boats which is vastly | less likely to crap out unexpectedly due to say | condensation in an enclosed environment where people are | exhaling water vapor. | | You might generally be fine, but many crash investigation | involved some cheap component failing as part of a longer | sequence. Ie something fails and humidity increases then | XYZ fails until eventually your margin of safety is gone | and everyone dies. | scns wrote: | Logitech has a lot of experience, i give you that. My MX518 | lasted over 10 years, many other owners reported the same. | More recent products by them die often before five years of | use. Perverse incentives, news at 11. Sorry for the snark. | mh- wrote: | FWIW, I'd estimate that Microsoft has sold something like | 200 million Xbox controllers. | ethbr0 wrote: | To be fair, Microsoft also sold a _lot_ of Xboxes that | were misdesigned from a thermal perspective, and thus red | ringed themselves. | mrguyorama wrote: | The thermals weren't misdesigned exactly, but the solder | was below expected performance in several key attributes. | It is not the only product that got screwed by new | leadfree solder being not the best at the time. | mcpackieh wrote: | > _Logitech has orders of magnitude more experience in | manufacturing peripherals than Microsoft._ | | You know that saying that anybody can build a bridge, but | it takes an engineer to build a bridge that barely stands? | From what I've seen and heard, Logitech has used their | experience to make peripherals that barely last longer than | the warranty/return period. | | FWIW my 22 year old optical intellimouse from Microsoft is | still going strong. | ThatPlayer wrote: | The article mentions that this gamepad was released in | 2010, but also it's just a slight iteration on Logitech's | Wireless RumblePad 2, a wireless version of the RumblePad 2 | released around 2004. | | The newer models just add X-input, change the button faces | from 1234 to ABXY, and made the wireless receiver smaller. | leni536 wrote: | I still have my rumblepad 2, it is a fine controller. Why | they would use wireless here is beyond me however. | ThatPlayer wrote: | Yeah, the wireless is not good. My initial thought on the | headline was Logitech's F310 controller which is wired | and missing rumble, but besides that basically identical. | laurent123456 wrote: | Even high end Logitech peripherals aren't exactly great. I | bought a Logitech wireless keyboard with backlighting a few | years ago. It was nice but there was some hardware bug and | when not in use the lights would be flashing all day and | night until the batteries run out [0]. I certainly hope | their gamepads are more energy efficient than that! | | [0] https://old.reddit.com/r/LogitechG/comments/pt0fkp/logi | tech_... | twbarr wrote: | There's a middle ground between "hardware store crap" and | "custom." The aviation industry has plenty of standard | interior lighting and environmental control system that's | known not to light people on fire or short out or otherwise | fail and kill somebody. | | https://www.collinsaerospace.com/what-we- | do/industries/busin... | | These are still COTS products. | [deleted] | BEEdwards wrote: | >Microsoft very certainly did a tons of reliability and | durability testing on their controllers (and it shows). | | my xbox elite controller didn't even last a year (usb port | died)... now tbf the x button on the replacement razer | controller i got also died in the same time frame. | | to be more fair though the wired xbox 360 controller i got | with my original xbox back in ~2007 has never let me down. | jki275 wrote: | Logitech is a "cheap third party"? | | I like MS hardware, but my goodness, calling Logitech that is | clearly missing something in the accuracy department. | Logitech is way more experienced at making and selling input | devices than MS. | SllX wrote: | I agree with you in principle on your defense of Logitech, | but if there's a company that can give Logitech a run for | their money in terms of designing and selling input | peripherals, it probably is Microsoft. There are very few | extant input peripheral manufacturers that have been doing | it as long or longer than Microsoft has, so it would be an | overstatement to say they're _way more_ experienced". | Logitech has released to market more peripherals overall | though since that's pretty much their entire business. | rjsw wrote: | I thought both companies started making mice at about the | same time. | addaon wrote: | > and what would that change? | | Suitability for purpose. Some obvious ones: | | Defined and validated environmentals (temperature, voltage, | and in this case pressure). | | Qualified components -- capacitors chosen for lifetime rather | than shaving a cent, perhaps avoidance of MEMS oscillators | with helium sensitivity. | | Failure analysis. Low and understood probability of fail- | unsafe conditions (short circuit), mitigation for those | risks, fume-proof and fire-proof PCB materials to protect the | sealed environment in case of failure. | | Redundancy to handle failures anyway. Multiple independent | strings so that single-point failure lead to partial loss of | lighting, not all of it. | | Load ahedding, eg dropping all but one string at a known | voltage above minimum voltage, to save power for other more | critical loads during system failure scenarios. | ethbr0 wrote: | Yes, if one had the budget to do all those things, from | scratch, _better_ than an existing component manufacturer. | | Not many companies have NASA levels of "throw money at it | until it works, and every part has been signed off on five | times." | | _Absent_ that, I 'm having trouble seeing how custom > | COTS. | | In all probability, anything in-house would have been | _worse_ and added new failure modes. | | Better to buy, analyze, and adapt as needed. | | And if it turns out you don't need to adapt, because | failure modes aren't safety-critical or components are | viable in the environment, then spend your time on | something more useful. | mcmcmc wrote: | They were charging a quarter million per head. Budget | should not have been a concern. | randac wrote: | Also using close to $1m in fuel per trip (according to | the CEO), not that it changes your point | flir wrote: | Not doubting you, but how is that possible? (A quick, | unverified Google throws back "A standard Panamax | containership has operational costs of about $9 million | per year") | addaon wrote: | Absent engineering, an engineered solution is no better | than COTS, agreed. | | Absent engineering, people die unnecessarily. | | Trade offs. | Retric wrote: | Not all COTS are equal. There are plenty of off the shelf | controllers built for boats that are designed to handle | wet environments such as might be found in an enclosed | space where people are exhaling water vapor etc. They | don't however cost 30$ nor do they cost anything close to | the R&D required to make an equivalent product. | | Of note they might not have condensation in normal | conditions, but condensation is exactly the kind of thing | that results in cascading failures when just one | seemingly minor thing fails. | dmonitor wrote: | If you can't afford to qualify the components on your | 4000m diving vehicle, you can't afford to make a 4000m | diving vehicle. | | See: the fact that they lost their diving vehicle. | ethbr0 wrote: | Pressure hull >> ballast control >> thrusters >> | everything else | | I'm not sure why everyone is taking potshots at a company | for trying something crazy _with willing passengers_. | | Everyone involved knew what they were getting into. | | Kudos to them for trying, even if they're dead. | | > _See: the fact that they lost their diving vehicle._ | | That's an awful lot of keyboard engineering, given nobody | knows what happened yet. | giantg2 wrote: | "Everyone involved knew what they were getting into." | | Did they? I might have missed that part. | srmarm wrote: | Hey at least it's not a madcatz controller! | Drblessing wrote: | Throwback! They were great for cheap controllers. | modeless wrote: | I trust an Xbox 360 controller a whole lot more than I trust a | Logitech controller. First party game console controllers are | generally very robust and the 360 one is a classic. Third party | are hit or miss but usually miss. | cm2187 wrote: | The controller itself is probably reliable enough, like any | cheap keyboard on amazon. I wouldn't want my life to rely on | bluetooth though. | rwmj wrote: | I don't even want my music listening to depend on bluetooth. | donkey_oaty wrote: | Absolutely. The fella in the article is going wired though by | the look of it. | lolinder wrote: | They have a couple of pretty good shots of the controller, | and I don't see a wire. Also, the marketing image they | include for the controller is clearly labeled as wireless. | rewmie wrote: | > Nothing to say this is the cause of the fault and probably | going to be more reliable than something hand rolled. | | Also, COTS gear that's designed with a standard interface is by | design trivial to replace even through hot swapping, which | automatically means resilience against errors. | soared wrote: | The issue most people on Reddit were discussing is that it's a | cheap off brand controller, rather than a higher quality name | brand controller (from Sony or Microsoft) | leipert wrote: | How is Logitech "off brand". They are well known for input | devices. | danudey wrote: | I've been using Logitech input devices since before Sony or | Microsoft ever made one. | KerrAvon wrote: | You had a P4 mouse in 1982? | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Mouse | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Logitech_products | [deleted] | yenda wrote: | It's Reddit | dharmab wrote: | Their game controllers are low quality. For example, home | and professional desktop flight simulators prefer to use | VKB or Virpil joysticks instead of Logitech or | Thrustmaster. | dmonitor wrote: | Their controllers are well known for being garbage. People | that take video games seriously can tell you all of the | different reasons why they "feel worse" or are just less | reliable than OEM. It's a $30 controller where the | "standard" option is around $60. The "premium" market where | they are custom made for important use cases (ie, | competitive Melee tournament) can easily reach into | multiple hundreds of dollars, using components like hall | effect sensors instead of resistive potentiometers that | will lose accuracy over time. | | Most people would refuse to play a video game with this | controller, let alone use it as a critical component in a | vehicle. Joystick drift in a videogame is frustrating. | Joystick drift in a fucking submarine is a disaster waiting | to happen. | HideousKojima wrote: | I have the wired version of the controller in the article | and actually like it quite a bit, but it definitely isn't | as rugged as an official Xbox controller would be. The | main features I like on it are a way to switch between | DirectInput and XInput modes and the ability to swap the | left thumbstick and dpad. | | Definitely wouldn't trust it for a submarine though. | devnullbrain wrote: | >It's a $30 controller | | Although, _for some reason_ , it's currently sold-out | everywhere. | TX81Z wrote: | Fun fact: DOD likes game pads because soldiers all play videos | game since birth and it requires the least training. | jsight wrote: | Yeah, I'm not convinced this is in any way related to the | issues. I'm far more concerned with the system that such a | controller was plugged into than the controller itself. | | Commercial off the shelf pc? What kind of redundancy? How was | power and power backup managed? | aa_is_op wrote: | And? | aezart wrote: | The fact that it's wireless is the scariest part to me. What if | it runs out of battery? What if it desyncs? | tvb12 wrote: | Stick drift would be really bad. | someweirdperson wrote: | It's not a Nintendo controller. | thesausageking wrote: | They have multiple of them on board and can swap in a new one | if there's an issue. The focus on the controller is misplaced | to me. Game controllers are well made and better suited for the | job than custom hardware. It's just the association with | videogames that makes it seem odd. | | If they used $30 logitech keyboard as well, would anyone | question that? | bitshiftfaced wrote: | Pros of having a wireless controller: freedom of movement (in | this case in a very cramped environment) and not having as | much of a tangled cord situation. | | Cons: desynchronization issues, transmitter goes bad, | receiver goes bad, interference, batteries run up, someone | forgets to pack batteries, someone forgets to check if the | backup batteries are still good. | | WHAT were they thinking?? | kiicia wrote: | this are literal life or death situations we are talking | about, not some office drama when someone spilled coffee on | keyboard and went home | SeasonalEnnui wrote: | The controller indicates poor engineering & safety culture. | It simply isn't fit for life critical purpose. | mongol wrote: | I agree. Imagine if they die because they forgot to change | batteries. | eye-robot wrote: | WestWorld: "Where nothing can possibly go worng".... | aktuel wrote: | Logitech is the last thing I would use if reliability counts | anything, unless you want it reliably to fail after twelve moths. | aaron695 wrote: | [dead] | curiousgal wrote: | Why is a submarine going missing such a big deal? I am either | growing old and grumpy faster than I thought or the media is in | shambles. | rightbyte wrote: | Do you remember the submarine murder in Denmark? It was on the | HN front quite a lot. I guess subs are very techy. | notatoad wrote: | This sounds bad when phrased like that, but if you change it to | say "submarine uses standard USB-HID profile for steering | control" then it seems like a reasonable design decision. | ZiiS wrote: | The are a lot of people who have spent considerably more on | thier chosen USB-HID for flying a virtual spaceship (myself | included). | silisili wrote: | Stupid question, perhaps: was/it possible for this sub to have | any kind of beaconing or communication system that works at | depth? It seems like one of this first things I'd investigate | before deciding to build a sub. | jonathankoren wrote: | Yes, you'd think emergency procedures would be at the top of | the list right after you made a viable pressure vessel. | | They obviously didn't do this. They previously lost the sub for | five hours. Why this doesn't have an emergency buoy, or an | locator beacon that works when the ship surfaces, I don't know. | nradov wrote: | The sub had a limited acoustic telemetry system for | transmitting to the host ship. That signal was lost, so | presumably the sub has suffered some type of serious failure. | silisili wrote: | Thanks! I've read a few articles in passing, and none | mentioned anything like that. Doesn't sound promising now... | vlod wrote: | I was wondering how naval submarines work when they get in | trouble. | | I would expect to see some sort of emergency button | (internally) that you could press, that would release some sort | of buoy, that would float to the surface and start transmitting | with gps etc. I think that would help narrow down the search. | | The buoy would be in an external container (to prevent pressure | problems), with explosive bolts or something to release. | mustacheemperor wrote: | From what I understand, naval submarines typically have a | signaling device called an EPIRB mounted in such a way that | it's released automatically if the sub dives significantly | below crush depth and/or if a switch isn't activated on some | set interval. Then it pops up on the surface and says "Hi, | wreck here." | | I don't think the former system would have worked here | anyway, since the sub is supposed to get very close to the | bottom. | bombcar wrote: | They had this but there were problems with it, if I recall | correctly. So it would be disabled in "times of war" or | whatever because if it accidentally popped off it was not a | good time for you. | shadowgovt wrote: | "Hi, depth charge here." | shadowgovt wrote: | > I was wondering how naval submarines work when they get in | trouble. | | Naval subs in trouble? | | They go "forever on patrol." A naval sub is an espionage | watercraft; signaling an emergency isn't exactly in the | playbook for most of their mission cycle. ;) | vlod wrote: | The alternative is death of 134 odd people. Not ideal. :/ | | I would expect some e2e encryption satellite communication, | however that might be still traceable to the enemy | listening posts. | | Man, I now need to watch "Hunt for Red October" again [0]. | lol | | [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C2tE7vjdHk | bigmattystyles wrote: | "1 ping only" -Russian sub captain with Scottish accent | for some reason. It's still one of my favorite movies | though. | vel0city wrote: | Its practically impossible to do satellite to undersea | communications. Being underwater does all kinds of hell | to RF signals. Even just reliably doing undersea to | surface communications is pretty tricky. | | Is your phone waterproof? Stick it a sink full of water. | Watch it lose all network connectivity. | vlod wrote: | See my previous comment [0]: "that would release some | sort of buoy, that would float to the surface and start | transmitting with gps etc." | | That should work if it's floating I would think? | | [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36409802 | vel0city wrote: | I wonder what the drift would be like if you released a | buoy 2 miles below the surface. You could theoretically | have the last estimated location of the sub, but even | then that's largely an estimate as its not like the sub | actually has a GPS fix its all dead reckoning. | | They already know _about_ where the sub should be, | somewhere around the Titanic wreck. If an untethered buoy | pops up a few miles away, does it really do much to help | clue you into where they are? And if its not much to put | a tether on the buoy, why not just have the craft be | tethered from the start? | mikestew wrote: | Summary: water attenuates radio signals, and a 4Km cable is | going to be way heavy and subject to currents. | tguvot wrote: | what about fiber ? <4kg per km. throw at end powered buoy. | maybe inflatable to hold more of it. currents still will be | mess, but with lower than copper weight you could have a few | km slack | teraflop wrote: | I think your assumptions are unrealistic. A fiber optic | cable weighing 4kg per km with no other reinforcement or | protection would be extremely fragile. | | According to my back-of-the-envelope math, using the | density and tensile strength of typical glass, it would | have a breaking load capacity of around 10 newtons (roughly | 2 pounds of force). Even a steel cable with the same weight | would only be about 20 times stronger. | tguvot wrote: | 4kg/km it's not for clean glass fiber. it's fiber drop | cable, in whatever plastic sleeving + a couple of steel | strands for some added rigidity/structure. there are also | versions with kevlar braiding to protect core and improve | resilience. | ZanyProgrammer wrote: | Well they paid the price for that bit of efficient thinking, | didn't they? | nerpderp82 wrote: | Sound carries very efficiently in water. | | https://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorations/sound01/backgrou. | .. | | https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2005/02/secrets-whales- | long... | | The sub should have had an acoustic transponder that | broadcast telemetry which could also be used to locate it. | silisili wrote: | Seems you're right, I just was searching how the military | does it and...it's not great. Came across | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines . | | So perhaps the best you could do here are something like | emergency buoys that either one can record data on or perhaps | automated recording some stats/location/whatever that can be | released in an emergency and send a broadcast once topside? | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | I've had two of those exact gamepads die | bombcar wrote: | The listing I saw said "Platforms: WINDOWS ME, WINDOWS 98, | WINDOWS 2000" but it didn't say "Platform: Underwater Vehicle". | crawsome wrote: | Dude doesn't game... Imagine trusting your life to a wireless | controller. | cmiles74 wrote: | David Pogue just referred to these kinds of submersibles as | "janky" on NPR. He also wasn't impressed with the controller. | | "All of these submersibles have been kind of janky," Pogue said. | | https://www.npr.org/2023/06/19/1183057832/a-search-is-underw... | HL33tibCe7 wrote: | The engineering culture at this company seems insane to me. From | what I read they actively took pride in using as little | technology and safety mechanisms as possible. If this isn't gross | negligence, what is? | sschueller wrote: | From what I read it is also the first carbon fiber deep water | vessel. I find that scary as carbon fiber does not start to bend | before falure, it fails catastrophically. | vicktour wrote: | I would honestly choose that over sitting on the bottom for 96 | hours. Something about sitting there for 4 days with no hope is | more terrifying to me. | rurp wrote: | That would be awful, but early failure signs give folks a | chance to abort the dive and get out before it turns | catastrophic. | throw9away6 wrote: | Not quite you get first ply failure before catastrophic | kiicia wrote: | they literally drilled holes on the inside to mount computer | display | taylorbuley wrote: | If the device into which you are plugging that steering device is | a regular old PC, as it seems to be here, then something like a | Logitech seems like exactly what one might recommend as the USB | peripheral. Redundancy plans become easier, not harder, with | consumer-grade hardware that can be swapped out during failure. | abraae wrote: | > Redundancy plans become easier, not harder, with consumer- | grade hardware that can be swapped out during failure. | | True enough on the surface. Not in a mini sub. They couldn't | carry spares of everything. | randyrand wrote: | I'd easily take the bet that this controller was not the problem. | [deleted] | deadballcretin wrote: | On one hand, 'if it ain't broke' etc. | | On the other, 'wait, what?'. | | The entire operation manages to somehow feel both incredibly | sophisticated (it's not easy to get a sub to that depth) and | simultaneously incredibly stupid. | Our_Benefactors wrote: | The part most surprising to me was that there is no way to see | out of the craft besides the camera system. Why not watch the | video on land after the fact? It seems so senseless to endanger | yourself as a participant. | mustacheemperor wrote: | There's a porthole in the front of the sub, where the toilet | is. | | Funny enough, I've also seen "it doesn't even have a toilet" | repeated around HN in the last couple days. | | IIRC an earlier design or planned design used cameras only. | | Edit: Wow, they were actually sued by a whistleblower over | the pressure rating for the window on an earlier design! | https://newrepublic.com/post/173802/missing-titanic-sub- | face... | Vecr wrote: | Yeah, I think I made a mistake when researching if it had a | window. It clearly had one when the reporter went down last | year. | ak_111 wrote: | Serious? what about the "window" in the front? | kiicia wrote: | window was in front of tourist toilet they had there, | question is I'd they had enough flood lamps so that it was | possible to see anything further than a meter away | oh_sigh wrote: | Another domain, but I feel that way when I watch some | universally panned TV show/movie. One where a random person can | think of simple changes to the script or plot that would make | it far more interesting. I find myself wondering...how did | these people recruit hundreds of people, and spend millions of | dollars to make this, but no one took a second glance at the | script to fix some glaring issue. | rewmie wrote: | What's wrong with using COTS components? | deadballcretin wrote: | Nothing, the issue is who is buying and implementing it. | rewmie wrote: | Exactly what's the issues, then? | kiicia wrote: | buying wrong COTS components, ones that are not fit for | intended purpose | rewmie wrote: | > buying wrong COTS components, ones that are not fit for | intended purpose | | What could possibly lead you to presume that? Do you feel | in a better position to make that call than all the | engineers who actually work on that task at a | professional level? | Solvency wrote: | There has to be a name for this kind of phenomenon. | | I am smart enough to know that I'm too dumb and ill-equipped to | make a safe tourism business out of a homebrewed submarine. | | These people are smarter than me, but too stupid to know that | they aren't smart enough to make a safe tourism business out of | a homebrewed submarine. | prova_modena wrote: | Dunning-Kruger effect. | realjhol wrote: | Did you know the Dunning-Kruger effect isn't real? | | https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/how-do-you- | know/2020... | limaoscarjuliet wrote: | Conditional Risk https://xkcd.com/795/ | golergka wrote: | Elon Musk effect. | cool_dude85 wrote: | Correction: these people were smarter than you, and they may | have at some point recently come to understand that they | couldn't make a safe tourism business out of this sub. | whyage wrote: | Looks like Stockton Rush is about to win a Darwin award | nabla9 wrote: | And where the spare batteries for the controllers are? | pengaru wrote: | Do we know anything about how many times this submersible has | survived descending to such depths? | | Surely its been sent down to dwell at these depths autonomously | dozens if not hundreds of times, right? | timbit42 wrote: | CBS News correspondent David Pogue said 20 to 25 drives in an | interview with CBC earlier today. | | https://youtu.be/q-6jjy3estY?t=338 | littlecranky67 wrote: | Going to get me one of these logitech gamepads now to re-play | Subnautica for true submarine immersion. | thekevan wrote: | Every time I have seen people calling this amateur hour, I wonder | if they are right or if it is similar to NASA using the same chip | that was used in the Sony Playstation in the early 90s as in the | New Horizons probe which reach Pluto in 2015. | | https://www.itpro.com/hardware/368293/why-cutting-edge-space... | kiicia wrote: | there is no problem in using off the shelf devices, problem is | when you choose one that is not fit for intended purpose | Karupan wrote: | According to the NYTimes, OceanGate refused to undergo any sort | of external audit/certification process [0]. I would imagine | using an off the shelf, cheap controller would have been one of | the first things to be flagged. Makes you wonder how many other | critical components did they skimp on | | [0] https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/06/20/us/titanic- | missing-s... | analog31 wrote: | This is what actually amazes me. The reliability of something | like an airplane, bus, or train, is held to extremely high | engineering standards. There are even safety rules for | bicycles. But you're allowed to take people for rides in a | submarines with barely any oversight. | mcbutterbunz wrote: | Likely due to two things: | | 1) Many more people fly or bike than ride in submarines. | | 2) Regulations are written in blood. Too many of these types | of accidents and then safety rules will be established and | enforced (hopefully). | adamckay wrote: | As the saying goes, "safety regulation is written in blood" | and I expect this to be somewhat modified. | | It's complicated somewhat if the submarine is launched and | operated in international waters, however. | Razengan wrote: | How else would Cthulhu be kept pacified? | Exuma wrote: | I wondered why they can't install a GPS anyway on the sub so that | when it eventually does get to the surface, at least they can be | found then. | foobar1962 wrote: | You'd just use your phone for GPS. Doing something useful with | that information may be a challenge. All that is moot if they | are locked on the wrong side of the airtight hatchway. | outworlder wrote: | Why would it eventually get to the surface? The issue with | submarines is that they don't normally float (and if you need | them to have positive buoyancy, they have to be functional). | isawczuk wrote: | This is not unusual design. There a lot of military tech that | work with commercial-grade electrics. It's easier to buy in bulk | cheaper and replace when it brakes. | JDW1023 wrote: | > According to the BBC, the entire sub is bolted shut from the | outside, so even if the vessel surfaces, the occupants cannot | escape without outside assistance and could suffocate within the | capsule. | | Why is the submarine bolted shut from the outside? | lisasays wrote: | Assuming, quite reasonably, that there has to some kind of | rationale for this -- I would guess it's because there's some | significant structural complexity (and hence risk) involved in | having it be open-able both ways. | dist-epoch wrote: | There is no point in allowing the door to be opened underwater | since it doesn't have an airlock. | gs17 wrote: | No one is proposing a literal "suicide door". But it makes | sense to have it openable after surfacing, at least for | emergencies. | stickfigure wrote: | "Surfacing" unassisted would mean floating with the top of | the submarine at water level. You still won't be able to | open the door. | gs17 wrote: | That's possible. Then at least some form of ventilation | usable after surfacing should have been included if | you're locking people in. | stickfigure wrote: | Every thruhull is a potential source of death at 5000+ | psi. | | The bigger problem seems like underinvestment in "getting | found" technology. | sschueller wrote: | It makes no sense as the pressure would prevent you from | opening it from the inside anyway until you are back on the | surface. | croes wrote: | It makes sense if you want a simple construction. Bolting it | from the outside is easier than an internal mechanism. | bambax wrote: | It would make a lot of sense if you're floating at the | surface of the ocean and need air. | croes wrote: | Easiest way to shut it? | tedunangst wrote: | Is there enough room inside the sub to turn a long enough | wrench to apply the appropriate torque? | Strom wrote: | I guess for the immense pressure you get at that depth. However | an emergency release would still make sense. | andrewmunsell wrote: | But, as with airplane doors (but in the opposite direction), | if the door was designed to open outwards then you couldn't | open it under pressure no matter how hard you pushed | Strom wrote: | At those pressures I don't think you would want to open the | door even if you could. I was more thinking about being at | the surface and having nobody else to unbolt it from the | outside. | andrewmunsell wrote: | Oh yes, I am (though I am absolutely not a real engineer | nor do I have any experience with subs) just questioning | why they would need to bolt it from the outside anyways. | If it was to keep occupants in, I would imagine that a | door that opens outwards would solve that issue if | submerged, and would still be openable on the surface | rightbyte wrote: | It is a simpler design to screw the nuts from the | outside. Otherwise the hull would need through hull | screws attached to the door or some sort of clamp around | the hull edge by the door opening. | rsaxvc wrote: | Guess: weight and cost savings | shadowgovt wrote: | An emergency release implies explosive bolts that could fail | catastrophically at depth. | | ... which would be a risk that I might recommend for another | application and manufacturer, but not for this firm, | apparently. For this firm, I think I'd recommend "Don't do | what you're doing, but if you must, keep it as simple as | possible." | starkparker wrote: | Naval submarine hatches _rely_ on the pressure to keep the | hatch shut. The water pressure outside is greater than the | air pressure inside. The hatch locks around a sealing o-ring. | Escape trunks are sealed off from the rest of the ship and | work like an airlock. Deepsea Challenger 's outward-opening | hatch/egress trunk worked the same way; indeed, its view | window was on the hatch. | tzs wrote: | > Naval submarine hatches _rely_ on the pressure to keep | the hatch shut | | I don't remember which company it was, but there was an | aircraft company that made the mistake of relying on screws | instead of pressure to keep the cockpit windows in place. | | The windows were installed from the outside with outside | screws to hold them in place. During maintenance one of the | windows got replaced and the worker accidentally used the | wrong screws which were much weaker than the correct | screws. | | Next flight when the plane got high enough the difference | between outside pressure and the higher pressure in the | pressurize cabin blew the window out and one of the pilots | got sucked out. Someone else in the cockpit was able to | grab his legs on the way out and hold on keeping him from | falling, although he spent the rest of the flight dangling | out the window getting buffeted around pretty severely. The | people left in the cockpit were sure the guy dangling out | the window was dead, and they were having a hard time | holding on, but they didn't want to lose his body and | managed to keep him. | | They also were having a hard time communicating with each | other or with air traffic control because of the noise from | the missing window. | | They did get down safely, and the everyone's surprise found | that the guy dangling in the window was alive, quite | bruised, and had frostbite all over his face, but nothing | permanent. He made a full recovery. | | They redesigned the windows so on newer planes they | installed from the inside with inside screws, whose job was | now to keep the window from falling into the plane instead | of keep it from falling out. | | A "wrong screw" accident then might mean losing a window | when taxiing or during takeoff or landing or at low | altitude, before there is much pressure different between | inside and outside. No one would be sucked out then and the | noise would be a lot lower. At higher altitudes the | pressure difference would be keeping the windows in place. | | As I said I don't remember what company's plane had this | accident. It was on one of those "air disaster" documentary | shows. | gcanyon wrote: | I think this is the story you're talking about. The | replacement windscreen bolts were too narrow: | https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/the-near-crash-of- | britis... | komadori wrote: | It was BA flight 5390. Admiral Cloudberg has a good | write-up: https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/the-near- | crash-of-britis... | vicktour wrote: | The location of the door really doesn't allow it to be opened | while its in the water. I would guess, as I have no evidence | other than an untrained eye, that the window would either be | fully underwater or at least partially underwater. It would | sink if it was opened. Not to mention that they would need to | equalize the pressure inside the sub to even push it open. | ploika wrote: | Bit of a tangent maybe, but according to some expert I heard on | the radio this morning, it's a submersible and not a submarine | precisely because the vehicle is so totally dependant on the | support ship. That includes everything from communication to | getting in and out. | SoftTalker wrote: | It's dependant on a support ship but it's not tethered to it? | Maybe depth prohibits that? | [deleted] | the_gipsy wrote: | There have been tethered submersions deeper than the | titanic wreck. | gcanyon wrote: | The more I read about this, the more it (sadly) reminds me of a | bungie jumping accident years ago: the bungie cable contained | many separate strands, all ending in loops. The habit of the | operators was to hold all the loops together and pass a large | carabiner through the bundle, catching a number of the loops. | | Until one time they caught few enough (none? I remember "none," | but that seems absurd) that the whole thing failed, and the | jumper fell straight to their death. | | Going down in the ocean to a depth _far_ deeper than any military | submarine goes -- I don 't see any info online, but I wonder if | fewer people have been as deep as the Titanic than have reached | Earth orbit -- in something that apparently was put together and | vetted by effectively hobbyists seems the pinnacle of lunacy. | Apologies to the missing for saying it. | m3kw9 wrote: | They could have brought a better one but logitech ain't bad, but | not sure about going wireless instead of cable | barbs wrote: | Right? Imagine being dead in the water because the batteries | ran out | giantg2 wrote: | "wireless PC game controller" | | I wonder if they forgot spare batteries. | komadori wrote: | I read "No Time on Our Side" by Roger Chapman a few months ago on | the recommendation of HN commentor /u/z991 [1]. It recounts the | 1973 rescue of a damaged submersible on the ocean floor from the | perspective of the crew trapped inside [2]. Mainly their struggle | with limited oxygen and rising CO2 levels. A fairly brief but | gripping read which I also recommend. | | Of note, I recall even though the sub in question had a working | acoustic phone and beacon, the rescue vessels really struggled to | pinpoint its precise location and maintain communications. The | ocean is a big place! | | [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34360329 [2] | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Roger_Mallinson_an... | nycdotnet wrote: | With all the talk about failure modes of carbon fiber, the | scariest part of this article is the photo of the display and | light held up by screws drilled into the side of the pressure | vessel. | kamranjon wrote: | I heard an anecdote at one point that when a submarine | depressurizes that deep, everything inside gets pushed through | whatever hole caused the depressurization, like squeezing the | contents out of a tube of toothpaste. | | Might have been from the Byford Dolphin accident: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byford_Dolphin | | "Hellevik, being exposed to the highest pressure gradient and | in the process of moving to secure the inner door, was forced | through the crescent-shaped opening measuring 60 centimetres | (24 in) long created by the jammed interior trunk door. With | the escaping air and pressure, it included bisection of his | thoracoabdominal cavity, which resulted in fragmentation of his | body, followed by expulsion of all of the internal organs of | his chest and abdomen, except the trachea and a section of | small intestine, and of the thoracic spine. These were | projected some distance, one section being found 10 metres (30 | ft) vertically above the exterior pressure door." | | I wonder if anyone knows if this universally true? Would the | inhabitants of this submarine have experienced a similar fate | if one of those bolts failed or a hole in the hull developed? | buildbot wrote: | Yeah, I had exactly the same thought! If it's a single hull and | not a double hull or something, and that's the actual inside of | the hull we are seeing, how the fuck is that safe? Someone uses | too long of a screw and bow you have what, 400 atmospheres of | pressure pushing against the presumably sharp point of the | screw? | | Strain monitoring built into the hull only helps you if you can | surface in time once you notice a problem, and not at all if it | is a catastrophic failure. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-06-20 23:00 UTC)