[HN Gopher] Money is the megaphone of identity (2020) ___________________________________________________________________ Money is the megaphone of identity (2020) Author : yamrzou Score : 99 points Date : 2023-06-21 20:29 UTC (1 days ago) (HTM) web link (moretothat.com) (TXT) w3m dump (moretothat.com) | j7ake wrote: | This is a very USA centric view. | | In many European countries, freedom of attention is attained by | having strong social support (eg free day care, education, health | care, quality food, strong employment and tenant laws). | | Many people in Europe live without thinking about money 24/7 but | are in absolute terms less rich than high paid people in nyc and | sf. | jacobwilliamroy wrote: | As a US citizen, I think about money all the time. What country | do you think I should move to to escape this? | digitalengineer wrote: | "I decided to take a 50% payout... and somehow I feel... | happier?" American working in The Netherlands. | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw0gJgMhaqo | LoganDark wrote: | Looks like you're gonna need money to move, though. | [deleted] | fosk wrote: | Italy, a small town in southern Italy specifically. | [deleted] | JohnFen wrote: | "Money don't buy what you really need It make an ice | man cry, it make a stone man bleed But when you | get right down to it, no matter who you are It rules | your life like a virgin queen One day you might get | over it, but in the meantime It rules the world like | a green machine" -- The Alan Parsons Project, | "Money Talks" | | That truth is why I hate money. | cscurmudgeon wrote: | Move to a country that is safe from external aggressors | without help from the US while also not having these worries. | | That leaves a total of .... 0 countries. | vaidhy wrote: | To be an enemy of the US is dangerous, but to be a friend | is fatal - Henry Kissinger. | | yes, WW-3 might be right over the horizon and we all can be | bombed out of extinction.. but the world has changed from | middle ages. | cscurmudgeon wrote: | > To be an enemy of the US is dangerous, but to be a | friend is fatal - Henry Kissinger. | | Kissinger said so, therefore it must be true. | | > but the world has changed from middle ages | | No one said the world is in the Middle Ages. | | But Europe always comes needing US support though. | SCUSKU wrote: | "Wherever you go, there you are" -- While I do think you can | move to a lower cost of living area, you can't outrun your | relationship to money. If you have a tendency to spend on | things you don't need, then you will be forced to think about | money all of the time. | | Accepting less, living below your means, and finding | happiness in non-material things could be one way to escape | this. | | Of course, there is also the option of moving to developing | countries and leveraging your financial privilege as an | American, e.g. South America/South East Asia. | themodelplumber wrote: | For real. Deepen your relationship with money so that it's | more comfortable, nuanced, and stable. Like a relationship | with an old friend. Even if you lose touch for a while, | they're still there for you. | | Otherwise there will still be a tendency to view money in | "have it / don't have it" terms, or similar lines of | thought that will require not only thinking about money all | the time, but doing so in a way that takes far too much | personal attention and energy. | | A lot of people have the false belief that thinking about | money too much is a sin, or an unwise mistake. But you can | also look at this tendency as beginner-level money-ing. | Education and deep experience / analysis of the topic | really help. | | IMO you can also still retain happiness in material things | if you develop your relation to/with them, too. For | example, understanding them as symbolic totems or | touchstones, or pointers toward a higher quality of life in | terms of any perspectives they may symbolically suggest | independent of your own established perspectives. (Once you | start to do this you'll start to eat away at merchants' | profit margins since your concept of worth & value will | deepen, and a sort of optimization skill will set in. :-)) | pistolpeteDK wrote: | If you can live with the high taxes, then scandinavia is | nice. The social safety net makes money less important. Free | health care is the big one. Not having to worry at all about | hospital bills(ever) is a great relief. | carlosjobim wrote: | People in Europe will plan their life around best exploiting | government monetary benefits, so I'm not sure if I can really | agree with your point. From things like deciding what month to | get pregnant in order to maximize some welfare benefit, to | entire businesses specializing in getting corporate welfare | instead of actually producing anything, to farmers growing | stuff they have no need for in order to get over a square meter | threshold to increase their subsidy. I've had the misfortune of | listening to hours upon hours of these boring conversations, | with everyday people giving each other tips to get as much as | possible from the government. Wether it's a financial benefit | or the benefit of getting more days to stay at home on your | couch and watch TV. | | Give me the American flavor of greed any day. At least some | great ideas and some great stories come from it. | jxramos wrote: | that would be great to actually turn into an investigative | documentary in video format. I'd be curious to get a taste of | experiencing what you experienced. | nuancebydefault wrote: | I live and work in Europe, even in a country with one of the | best corporate and government wellfare. It is true that a lot | of people think about how to exploit the system regularly. | That said, i am not one of them (at least not for a big | amount), and a lot of people really enjoy being more relaxed | about the possibility of getting ill or loosing a job, | without fear of bankruptcy. This while liking their job and | putting a lot of effort doing it well. So i guess some bias | kicked in by having been surrounded by people of the former | type... | [deleted] | glonq wrote: | My dad took our family through a rags-to-riches-to-rags arc, so | for me... (1) I never want be in 'rags' again (2) I never take | for granted what I've got (3) I'm guilty of having a 'scarcity | mentality' (quick to save, slow to spend or share). | RigelKentaurus wrote: | Poignant essay. I was in the author's shoes twenty-five years | ago. I was an immigrant from India in my early twenties searching | for a job in San Jose. At one point, I had $7 in the bank and had | to live in my hatchback for a few days. One of my strongest | memories is finally finding a job and resolving never to be in | that situation again. I learned all I could about investing, | budgeting and saving. Now in my mid-forties, my wife and I can | retire if we want to. | | Turns out my fear of poverty and homelessness, rather than any | positive thoughts on how money can be an enabler, has been my | biggest motivator. | WWLink wrote: | This sounds like some kinda CEO "You should love your job and | strive to do a job you'd do for free!" "It's not about the | money!" propaganda nonsense written by some asshole CEO trying to | defend their subpar wages lol. | | Edit: OMG LOL the predator/parasite "stop villainizing rich | people" image. | [deleted] | VinLucero wrote: | Love this and wish I had written it about my own journey. | ricardobayes wrote: | This is extremely eye-opening. | qingcharles wrote: | As someone who previously made millions of dollars and is now | reduced to a single broken suitcase[*] for all his possessions | and is homeless, living in a sleeping bag, this article resonates | with me. I help a lot of other homeless people and it is very, | very hard to totally reboot your life when all you have in the | world is the one set of dirty clothes on your back. | | [*] it was a wheelie suitcase I found, but I wore the wheels | completely off it carrying cans of food from the food pantries | for everyone. | Ecoste wrote: | How did that happen, if you don't mind me asking? | knd775 wrote: | Not quite doubting you, but you mentioned having a landlord 3 | days ago. | bluepod4 wrote: | Didn't you read the comment? His landlord got hit in a head- | on collision and refused an ambulance because he was carrying | a stack of rent cash in his car. You have to assume the | landlord died and OP became homeless 3 days later. | | (I'm joking lol. I definitely want to call cap on the | sleeping bag homeless situation.) | mysterydip wrote: | Just curious but where did the millions go? I assume a split | between assets and consumables (food, drink, | events/experiences). | igammarays wrote: | I don't understand how a person falls into complete | homelessness, barring severe mental illness or addiction. Don't | you have family or friends you could at least stay with | temporarily? I moved to a country where I have zero family, but | even here I have friends I could stay with if I ended up being | unable to pay the rent. | dazc wrote: | 'I moved to a country where I have zero family, but even here | I have friends I could stay with if I ended up being unable | to pay the rent.' | | Not parent post but... | | Imagine a scenario where friends and family are the last | people on Earth you are going to ask for help. Not everyone | is of the same mindset you describe. | | Pride, mental health issues, family history, etc all play a | part. I was homeless once, a combination of these things is | what stopped me asking for help. | | I have relatives who are regulars on the Sunday Times Rich | List, some good loyal friends and 3 siblings. Go figure. | majormajor wrote: | > even here I have friends I could stay with if I ended up | being unable to pay the rent | | Time plays a factor. How long do you think they'd put you up? | One month? Six? A year? Two years? Five years? | | And if you pick up some bad habits while being unable to get | back on your feet and living with friends... that can get you | booted more quickly. | johnla wrote: | I love this essay. | pixel3234 wrote: | > freedom money can buy as it relates to your work. | | > power of money resides in its ability to provide a better life | for our families. | | I really hate this mentality, it sees money as power to buy | freedom and eventually to "buy family". | | For me the key is to minimize expenses to some reasonable | minimum. It does not matter how much I make, it does not affect | my lifestyle much. Maybe I would buy a nicer laptop. I gave up on | being slave to money long time ago. | | That includes being a slave to family! I am open to serious | relationship, but most people think I am cheap bum. I have no | reason to change their opinions! | majormajor wrote: | I don't see so much disagreement. You still "bought freedom" by | reducing your expenses past the point where you're precarious | financially. | | > It does not matter how much I make, it does not affect my | lifestyle much. | | One fifth your current level? One tenth? One hundredth? | | Or, if living mostly off of savings... well, that's even more | explicitly having used money to "buy freedom". | pixel3234 wrote: | Look into article, it is all Phase 1, Phase 2.... like an | elevator. And absolute top is helping community like proper | tradcon. It does not even count with possibility, that people | do not really care about such things. There is no basic | reasoning about "should we do it"? Usual endgame is to settle | down with bad partner. | | I like hiking and traveling. I am always in climate that has | nice temperatures, usually near sea. Sometimes I sleep on | beach, sometimes in hotel. All via super cheap deals (you get | very good at that over time). | | If I would have less money, I would probably live healthier | lifestyle. I would cut alcohol and meat, eat more veggies. I | would also take long term lease, make some friends, that is | another win for mental health. | majormajor wrote: | If you're in a position of saying "if I had less money | [...] I'd take a long term lease" you already pretty far on | the "buy freedom with money" ladder compared to a lot of | people. (Or underestimating the difficulty in many places | of getting a long term lease without having much money or | steady employment without sacrificing some of your other | things like nice climate.) | | You just did a different thing with your freedom. So the | part of the mentality you just hate is that "once you have | freedom you can provide for your family"? | pixel3234 wrote: | I am doing pretty well (crypto). But "long term lease" | would be like $300/month condo near beach, tourist | resorts are pretty cheap out of main season. | acover wrote: | Where? | apsurd wrote: | Had to look up "tradcon". Sounds pejorative. "...but should | we?" is a good question, I agree. You mention that people | _assume_ "building community" is a good thing we should do, | and that you are unconvinced that people really care about | such things. | | You end your paragraph suggesting that longer term lease (a | more stable physical location) + make some friends = win | for mental health. This would be my basic description of | building community. What do you think? | pixel3234 wrote: | > paragraph suggesting that longer term lease | | Changing locations every few weeks wears you down, some | recovery is needed.. And "making some friends" is an | euphemism for mating if you have to know, very hard to | get quality stuff if you are just passing through. | | I get the whole "building community", some people are | really into it, but some others are not! | apsurd wrote: | Well it seems like you do agree that there is value in | building a community and even stability. It's not that | you refute the value, you just don't want it forced down | everyone's throats as some self-righteous ideal and | measure of a man. I agree with that. | | edit to add: re: "...very hard to get quality stuff" lol | yeah that's funny, I came back to this because "the good | stuff" in my experience has to do with intimacy, and that | takes some kind of earned connection over time, I don't | want to make any moral argument, connections can come in | various ways, who am I to say. So purely observational, | interesting to think about the idea of quality (physical) | connections whether there is some necessity for more | "tradcon" concepts as you mention. | burnished wrote: | Your position seems a little hypocritical? Your life style | wouldn't be possible without other people valuing community - | nothing wrong with it or for pointing out other ways of living, | but you are coming off as kind of hostile towards a structure | you depend on and it bothers me. | [deleted] | 11235813213455 wrote: | Money (spent) is the measure of someone's pollution footprint | [deleted] | mensetmanusman wrote: | If you make $40k you are in the top 1% of the world income. | MuffinFlavored wrote: | I feel like this stat is useless. Sure, it gives perspective | that people in some other country don't value money, but they | also aren't stuck on a computer all day doing a job they don't | like. | | https://bemorewithless.com/the-story-of-the-mexican-fisherma... | | Plenty of American's making $40k/yr probably hate their | lives/wish they didn't make $40k/yr. | JohnFen wrote: | But to be meaningful, you have to scale that according to the | cost of living where you are. | johnla wrote: | Yes, it's good to keep a good perspective by thinking our | position relative to the world but relative to our surroundings | and cost of living too. Probably living the US, we're near the | top for expenditures/costs too. | vaidhy wrote: | In US, I feel like I am always in phase 1. While I am very well | in the top 5% in terms of wealth, I also feel I am only one | serious illness away from bankruptcy and that is stressing me | out. If comfortable retirement (living a middle class life) is | only available to people with a multi-million dollar retirement | fund, I see no purpose in even aiming for a retirement in US. | JohnFen wrote: | > I see no purpose in even aiming for a retirement in US. | | Welcome to the sad club. Retirement age is within sight for me | and my friends, and most of my circle is not in a position to | be able to retire. | acover wrote: | What is retirement age to you? 65? | nradov wrote: | Full US Social Security retirement age is 67. That might be | raised again by the time that younger people become | eligible. | Buttons840 wrote: | Call me a pessimist, but I wouldn't be surprised if in | the coming years Social Security age is increased while | life expectancy declines. | vuln wrote: | Hell they tell me straight up I'll only ever get a | maximum of 80% of what I put in. I'm sure that percentage | will be reduced in the next 40 years... | jxramos wrote: | there was a financial advisor at Apple who gave talks to | employees and iirc they did mention that they used a | rough percentage for advising clients with for what to | expect from Social Security. It may have been 2/3 or 3/4 | or 70%. I don't think it was as high as 80. | spondylosaurus wrote: | Maybe not much consolation, but even crummy health insurance | plans have yearly limits where you'd "only" ever have to pay, | like, twenty grand a year out of pocket on medical expenses. | Significantly lower for better plans, of course. | | ... | | Assuming your plan is willing to cover the remaining expenses | in the first place. | | (Yeah, it's not an irrational fear :P) | vaidhy wrote: | I also just learnt that Medicaid can place a lien on your | house in some cases. Maybe, the solution is to move out of | US, but that is equally difficult with an Indian passport. | raincom wrote: | There are ways to protect your home from such liens. Enter | medicaid asset protection trusts. | ridgeguy wrote: | In California, having your assets (home included) in a | living trust shields those assets from Medicaid/Medical | lookback forfeiture. [1] A living trust is a good idea for | other reasons as well. | | [1] https://www.medicaidplanningassistance.org/asset- | protection-... | vuln wrote: | Florida has the Homestead act to prevent this. | nwiswell wrote: | > I am only one serious illness away from bankruptcy and that | is stressing me out | | Well, you're only one serious illness away from death. I'm not | trying to be flippant here; there are more things that can | properly kill you rather than just make you seriously ill and | bankrupt you, provided your health insurance is decent. | | I do want to emphatically underscore that this isn't an | endorsement of the system. It's just that if you're worried | about _almost dying_ and you 're not worried about _actually | dying_ , you're probably miscalibrated. The best we can do is | minimize the risk of Really Bad Outcomes. No one, no matter how | rich, can avoid them altogether. All of us are gonna die. | Retric wrote: | IMO, a great number of things are worse than death because | dead me can't suffer while live me can. Death isn't | unpleasant, it's a bad outcome for me only in that it | prevents the pleasure of living well. My death is a concern | for those who care for or are dependent on me, but so is my | incapacity and suffering. | nwiswell wrote: | "Bankruptcy is literally worse than death" is a new one for | me, gotta be honest. | | If you really feel that way, there's always the emergency | exit. | Arainach wrote: | In some important ways it absolutely can be, and the | emergency exit doesn't help. | | If I die, life insurance pays out. If I commit suicide, | it doesn't. | | If I die, there are some basic optional-but-socially- | mandatory costs around disposal of the corpse and a | memorial ceremony. Those are fixed and measured in | thousands, not tens or hundreds of thousands. My property | and assets pass to my heirs. They are grieving but | financially secure. | | Prolonged illness can sap my reserves dry and drain me of | wealth in a manner matched only by the retirement home | industry. My family can watch me suffer and wilt away | while watching their potential financial security drip | through a hose into my veins. | thriftwy wrote: | Sounds like a poor man's reinvention of Maslow's pyramid, with | fewer levels. | apsurd wrote: | Interesting blog. The article is a good reminder of common | introspections on money. I like the points on freedom: "freedom- | as-leisure (vacations)", "freedom in work", and "freedom in | attention". TLDR: what is wealth _really_? probably it's freedom | in attention. But there is some baseline survival threshold to | get to, and that's much lower than people may realize. | | Anyway, some constructive feedback if the author comes across | this discussion: | | 1) The post is sooooooo long. I appreciate long-form content - I | love Atlantic articles - so it doesn't have to be a 30 second | TikTok clip, I just think it can be tightened up. A lot. | | 2) The illustrations lack their own context enough to be | understood on their own. It's mildly annoying to look at them and | have no clue what they express unless you read the before and | after paragraphs. Consider adding enough context for them be | self-contained. | | That said, I appreciate your labor and signed up for your | newsletter! ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-06-22 23:00 UTC)