[HN Gopher] Tesla Fleet Telemetry
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Tesla Fleet Telemetry
Author : shekhar101
Score : 125 points
Date : 2023-06-29 20:03 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (github.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
| bonestamp2 wrote:
| I wonder if they started building this API to comply with the
| newer Massachusetts right to repair law, then just made it public
| when the feds told automakers to ignore the Massachusetts law.
| siliconc0w wrote:
| I may be missing something but how do you get your specific
| client_config deployed to your car? The quickstart says, "Share
| with Tesla" - do you like send them an email asking nicely?
| tamu_nerd wrote:
| I had the same question. There doesn't seem to be any
| information regarding next steps once the server is running.
| drewda wrote:
| > Tesla strongly encourages providers to only collect data they
| need, limited to frequency that they need.
|
| If only...
| bheadmaster wrote:
| The problem with data is that they can often reveal information
| you _need_ , but didn't even _know_ you need.
|
| The way I understand Tesla's meaning of "data they need" is the
| data that you know exists, know is useful, and has a predefined
| purpose. However, blind data mining can often bring insight
| that may give you an edge over competition, so the unethical
| data collectors have an advantage.
|
| On the other hand, collecting all available data makes you
| biased by the particular nature of data collected - _not
| everthing that is measurable is important, and not everything
| that 's important is measurable_. Even 100% accurate data can
| lead you astray if it gives you an incomplete picture. That's
| how we got algorithms that optimize outrage, because outrage
| and stress create massive engagement.
| sodality2 wrote:
| > That's how we got algorithms that optimize outrage, because
| outrage and stress create massive engagement.
|
| I mean, in this case, it's not a "problem", it's a
| predetermined goal. It's not some sort of accident that they
| optimize for engagement, it's explicitly what they want to
| optimize for. The fact that it causes harmful interaction
| isn't an unwanted side effect, at least for the social media
| company, but a means to an end.
| hatthew wrote:
| It is absolutely an accident. Engagement recommender
| systems do not optimize for outrage, they optimize for
| engagement. It just turns out that outrage causes
| engagement. The difference is that at no point is there a
| human who says "Let's cause outrage!" It's the algorithms
| that figure out the connection, which is the point being
| made by the person you replied to.
| bheadmaster wrote:
| The assumption is that engagement = good for business. I
| personally believe it isn't, as I've personally quit all
| social networks (notwithstanding HN and a few private
| communities) because they made me addicted and unhappy.
| Unhappy users stay because they're addicted, and a part of
| them quits. Happy users stay because they want to.
|
| Not making people unhappy is good for business. Or at least
| I hope it is...
| WWLink wrote:
| Then you get the weird software engineers that are very
| defensive of spying on their users lol.
| bouke wrote:
| Every time Tesla refers to the cars they sold to customers as
| their 'fleet', I get the feeling they don't really recognise they
| are no longer the owner of those vehicles.
|
| Fleet as defined in Oxford Dictionary: "A number of vehicles or
| aircraft working together, or under the same ownership."
|
| (edit: use actual Oxford definition)
| 015a wrote:
| "Operated as a unit" is not an inaccurate description of
| Tesla's footprint. Every one of their cars, assuming factory-
| ish conditions, is sending live, realtime data back to Tesla-
| owned servers. That data is analyzed, and the output of that
| analysis impacts the driving behavior of the vehicles in the
| future (training their AI models). Commands are sent from
| Tesla's servers to change the operational state of the car
| every single day (most of the time, I hope, at the behest of
| the owner, e.g. "turn on the AC").
|
| That's a fleet. You may not like it, but that's what Tesla
| owners knowingly opt-in to.
| vortext wrote:
| They can still control them remotely, so there's that.
| ChrisClark wrote:
| This is referencing your own fleet of Tesla vehicles though,
| like company cars or rental fleet. Not a reference to the Tesla
| company's fleet.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Terms can change. To me it brings to mind that all the vehicles
| are sharing training data as a network to improve self driving
| capabilities.
| chroma wrote:
| It's in reference to a company owning a fleet of Teslas, not
| Tesla owning the fleet.[1] The point of this reference
| implementation is to make it easier for companies that own a
| bunch of Teslas to collect data about their cars.
|
| 1. https://www.tesla.com/fleet
| wilg wrote:
| Seems like the idea here is to provide a public API for third
| party integrations, which currently use a private API.
| axus wrote:
| Like that other Elon Musk company!
| munk-a wrote:
| If you're referring to Twitter it actually has had a
| legendarily awful track record with API access. Reddit is
| trying its best to dethrone it though.
| abledon wrote:
| I'm a kubernetes noob, in https://github.com/teslamotors/helm-
| charts/blob/main/charts/...
|
| why do they do `helm repo add teslamotors
| https://teslamotors.github.io/helm-charts/` instead of
|
| `helm repo add teslamotors https://github.com/teslamotors/helm-
| charts/` ?
|
| isn't the first one a webpage rather than a repo?
| bytesmith wrote:
| Based on the message spec[0], it doesn't look like this can be
| used to track Full Self Driving disengagements which is a shame.
| However, for its intended purpose which is presumably to help 3rd
| parties (eg Hertz) manage fleets it seems like a boon.
|
| [0] https://github.com/teslamotors/fleet-
| telemetry/blob/main/pro...
| amluto wrote:
| > Fleet Telemetry is a server reference implementation. The
| service handles device connectivity, receives, and stores
| transmitted data. Once configured, devices establish a websocket
| connection to push configurable telemetry records. Fleet
| Telemetry provides clients with ack, error, or rate limit
| responses.
|
| I assume this means that Tesla devices can be configured to speak
| the client end of this protocol, and that fleet operators might
| enable it. If so, that's kind of neat.
|
| Of course, it would be nice if _Tesla_ telemetry non-fleet
| vehicles worked the same way and could be turned off.
| awinter-py wrote:
| congratulations your motor vehicle is now dependent on kubernetes
|
| pov you are headed for a collision and something is wrong. you
| issue a describe command ... Type Reason Age
| ---- ------ ---- Normal Sync 100s (x3 over 100s)
|
| Is that an expected status for this component? The distance
| narrows ...
| chroma wrote:
| The Kubernetes implementation is on the server side, not the
| car. The only way to control the car is through Tesla's API,[1]
| and that doesn't let you do dangerous stuff like turn the wheel
| while someone is driving.
|
| Even if you could overwrite the software on the car, you'd
| still have to contend with the physical controls available to
| the driver. The steering wheel is physically connected to a
| typical rack and pinion setup. The brake pedal is physically
| connected to hydraulic lines just like every other car on the
| road. And like most cars, the brakes are more powerful than the
| motor.
|
| 1. There's no official documentation but a big chunk of it has
| been reverse engineered: https://tesla-
| api.timdorr.com/vehicle/commands
| cryptonector wrote:
| F-16s have kubernetes on them now[0].
|
| [0] https://thenewstack.io/how-the-u-s-air-force-deployed-
| kubern...
| awinter-py wrote:
| it sounds from the article like this is on either 1 or 3
| planes and hopefully that number has decreased since 2019
|
| hoping 'deployed in 45 days' doesn't mean what I think it
| means
| leoh wrote:
| >At Tesla we believe that security and privacy are core tenets of
| any modern technology. Customers should be able to decide what
| data they share with third parties, how they share it, and when
| it can be shared. We've developed a decentralized framework:
| "Fleet Telemetry" that allows customers to create a secure and
| direct bridge from their Tesla devices to any provider they
| authorize.
|
| Complete non-sequitur.
|
| "We care about your privacy"
|
| "Here's a way to share private information with others"
|
| Also, un-stated "there ain't nothing you can do about sharing
| your private data with us"
|
| Cool that they give you a way to access some of your data at all
| though, I guess
| jackmott42 wrote:
| >"there ain't nothing you can do about sharing your private
| data with us"
|
| You can turn off lots of data sharing and monitoring settings
| in the standard UI in the car, last I looked it wasn't even
| hidden behind any dark patterns.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| Privacy isn't "no one can know anything about me, ever, even if
| it is my choice to tell them". By this logic you are violating
| your own privacy when you introduce yourself to someone with
| your name.
|
| The actual concept of privacy is entirely in line with their
| idea that you "should be able to decide what data [you] share
| with third parties, how [you] share it, and when it can be
| shared"
| benced wrote:
| Privacy advocates should reconcile themselves with the idea
| that sometimes people _want_ to share their data. If I owned a
| Tesla, I'd enjoy using this framework to put data about my
| driving into a google sheet.
|
| Private information means the user controls their data. They
| will often do things privacy advocates don't like or think are
| dumb. That's the privacy advocate's problem, not the user's.
| creata wrote:
| If you're using the data yourself, how is that "sharing" your
| data?
| belltaco wrote:
| Google Sheets can't be self hosted, so the data must be
| shared with Google in their scenario.
| oittaa wrote:
| > Also, un-stated "there ain't nothing you can do about sharing
| your private data with us"
|
| Are predditors now coming to this site to spread their
| "spaceship man bad" propaganda? There are obvious switches that
| toggle data sharing. A quick googling would have revealed that:
| https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2017/05/tesla...
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| "others"
|
| I.e. my own home server.
| Casteil wrote:
| >At Tesla we believe that security and privacy are core tenets
| of any modern technology.
|
| Seeing this after the whistleblower/leak regarding Tesla
| employees having unfettered access to onboard camera footage
| (and that embarrassing/compromising footage of customers was
| actively shared internally) is... rich.
| jsight wrote:
| That sounds like a subtle mischaracterization of the leak to
| me. The leak sounded more like, "the teams responsible for
| tagging data uploaded by Teslas had access to data uploaded
| by Teslas". The fact that they could share them amongst
| themselves is also not particularly surprising.
|
| While I understand the alarm, it was also completely
| unsurprising even based purely on the company's public
| statements about how they use data from the cameras.
| mlyle wrote:
| I think few who enabled Sentry Mode thought it was
| reasonably likely that Tesla employees would share
| titillating personal moments spotted by their cars for the
| luls.
| ribosometronome wrote:
| I think few who read the comment he was replying to
| thought that we were discussing what people thought about
| Sentry Mode data labeling privacy issues and instead
| about "unfettered access to onboard camera footage".
| Casteil wrote:
| Exactly. People shouldn't have to worry about their car
| being a serious privacy risk.
|
| Video footage being shared with/accessible by Tesla
| should be strictly opt-in - especially for "sentry mode",
| which is the most likely to catch someone in their
| skivvies (or worse) in their garage.
| tyfon wrote:
| You can also have to opt-in data/video collection manually
| when getting the car in the first place, at least here in
| Europe.
| brandonp0 wrote:
| Yep, it's the same in the US
| rondini wrote:
| If an employee at a photo lab was keeping and sharing
| copies of compromising pictures there would be huge outrage
| and rightfully so. Just because they have to handle
| personal data doesn't mean it's acceptable to share and
| laugh with your colleagues; it should be handled with the
| utmost respect for your users' privacy.
| jabbequbs wrote:
| I have bad news for you. This exact topic has been
| discussed on my local radio station (in a medium sized
| city) and loads of callers described working at a photo
| lab where there was a drawer full of copies of
| "noteworthy" photos.
|
| I think it's apples and oranges though. With a photo lab
| the customer has deliberately handed over whatever images
| they want developed, whether the images are private or
| not. Tesla employees sharing images from cameras that
| some people may have plausibly not even known were there
| feels like much more of a violation.
| cryptonector wrote:
| If an employee at a hotel planted secret cameras and...
|
| If an vacation rental landlord planted secret cameras
| and...
|
| Bad news all around.
| inferiorhuman wrote:
| The fact that they could share them amongst themselves is
| also not particularly surprising.
|
| It's not that the _could_ , it's that they _did_.
| dylan604 wrote:
| But _of course_ they did. They are human, and baser
| instincts are hard to overcome. Especially in the age of
| share everything with everyone all the time. I would not
| be surprised to learn that the youngest generations have
| never been taught to _not_ share everything if not quite
| the opposite.
| stetrain wrote:
| The current situation for third party apps (which do exist,
| plenty of them) is you either give them your Tesla account
| username/password (super bad) or an access token that you get
| by signing into your Tesla account, which is less bad but still
| gives the app the same access as your full Tesla account.
|
| So yes, by building a framework to allow users to authorize
| third party apps to receive limited telemetry data without
| handing over their full Tesla account keys this may allow for
| an improvement in privacy for those who want to use such apps.
| dylan604 wrote:
| > The current situation for third party apps (which do exist,
| plenty of them) is you either give them your Tesla account
| username/password (super bad) or an access token that you get
| by signing into your Tesla account, which is less bad but
| still gives the app the same access as your full Tesla
| account.
|
| In 2023, I'm amazed that this is still a thing. I'm also sad
| that users are so uncaring about their data that they are
| cavalier to just provide credentials to 3rd parties just
| because they pinky swear they'll not be evil and the use of
| their app is super worth it. I still remember the first time
| a coworker was singing the praises of some money/finance app
| that I decided to try. I immediately stopped and said nope
| when I realized they needed my user/password to all of the
| banks I wanted to connect. I feel sorry for people that feel
| the juice is worth the squeeze, especially when they get
| squeezed dry. Maybe it's not the 3rd party company, but the
| possibility of hackers that attack said 3rd party. Just too
| big of an ask
| TOMDM wrote:
| Why not just an access token that only has certain perms?
| dylan604 wrote:
| Because the first party vendor, in this case Tesla, doesn't
| provide that kind of mechanism?
| TOMDM wrote:
| That's what I'm saying though, instead of allowing
| permissioned access to their existing telemetry, they're
| publishing a platform that duplicates all of that
| functionality.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Hard agree. I give my Tesla creds to other third party apps
| willingly, because I want the benefits those apps offer (we
| own several Teslas, and both the historical data and remote
| vehicle control has value add). The effort to move to a more
| secure auth mechanism is welcomed, and it's my data, so I
| don't get the outrage. This is part of the value in my
| purchase decisions, and within the risk appetite of my threat
| model.
|
| This is also more efficient on Tesla infra (streaming
| telemetry data), vs aggressive polling (what current apps do,
| typically slow polling when vehicle updates are minimal, such
| as when parked, and then switching up to aggressive polling
| when traveling at speed).
| darknavi wrote:
| > "there ain't nothing you can do about sharing your private
| data with us"
|
| FWIW there are settings in the car to disable certain things.
| Not sure how much it _actually_ disables though.
| moffkalast wrote:
| Disable and delete seem to just mean "hide from the end user"
| these days.
| the_sleaze9 wrote:
| "Soft delete", and it's a requirement in almost everything
| jackmott wrote:
| [dead]
| modeless wrote:
| This is cool, I've been thinking about building an application
| that polls the reverse engineered Tesla API, but an officially
| supported solution sounds much better. Is there any documentation
| about how users authorize applications?
|
| Seems like this allows vehicles to connect directly to your own
| server instead of having a Tesla server act as intermediary. Will
| it be free to use then? I guess Tesla is still footing the bill
| for cellular bandwidth used, so it probably won't be free.
| denysvitali wrote:
| https://github.com/adriankumpf/teslamate ?
| jnsaff2 wrote:
| Teslamate is awesome. I've been running it for almost a year
| and it just keeps on trucking without any issues. Completely
| open source written in Elixir uses Phoenix LiveView, data in
| Postgres and provides prebuilt Grafana dashboards as well.
|
| Also authentication tokens are done locally and refreshed
| nicely so no fear of leaking tokens/passwords.
| denysvitali wrote:
| Same positive experience here. I love that tool!
| modeless wrote:
| Yes, that is an example of an application that polls the
| reverse engineered Tesla API. Not the application I wanted to
| build and not something using this officially supported
| method.
| seanieb wrote:
| That's great and all, but I'd settle for my Model 3 Autopilot
| staying in its lane and not trying to slam me into the median.
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(page generated 2023-06-29 23:00 UTC)