[HN Gopher] How to foster shoshin
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How to foster shoshin
Author : andsoitis
Score : 76 points
Date : 2023-07-05 14:55 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (psyche.co)
(TXT) w3m dump (psyche.co)
| wnolens wrote:
| I think there's an underappreciated reason for trying to
| cultivate this kind of mind.
|
| > With eyes and mind wide open, it's so much easier to enjoy the
| wonders of the world
|
| Never occurred to me before but by constantly learning new things
| (instrument, rock climbing, history of Iran, sewing..) I've been
| cultivating a mindset of gratitude for the world and appreciation
| of others' abilities. I feel it has helped bring my brain slowly
| back into balance from being quite depressed. Focusing on
| learning something new was a way out.
| suction wrote:
| [dead]
| debacle wrote:
| Are people "intellectually humble" or just more humble in
| general?
|
| Many intellectual people use their intelligence and authority as
| a coping mechanism for poor social skills or low self esteem. As
| a manager + systems architect, I've worked with a lot of people
| who almost have PTSD from dealing with the petty tyrants in our
| industry, and I've been told that academia is much worse.
|
| If you want to foster shoshin, just listen more than you speak.
| I've got two decades of experience and my third year interns
| teach me cool things all the time.
| [deleted]
| astrange wrote:
| This article title is what you call Orientalism. Chu Xin is not
| a mystical ancient philosophy term unknown to the West. It's
| "beginner's mindset" or "openness to new concepts".
|
| Actually, knowing "openness" is more important because knowing
| what Big 5 personality traits are protects you from believing in
| MBTI.
| ulfbert_inc wrote:
| >His German compatriots referred to his 'delirious ravings' while
| experts in the United States accused him of peddling
| pseudoscience.
|
| Many such cases!
| Archelaos wrote:
| This narrative is way too simple. The US-American Frank Bursley
| Taylor proposed something like condinental drift even before
| Wegener. One of Wegeners early opponents, Hans Cloos,
| nevertheless held him in high regard. Despite his dissent from
| the mainstream, he received a professorship in Graz.
|
| The opposition against him at the time was well justified. His
| theory lacked a convincing explanation about the driving force
| of plate tectonics, which he identified as tidal and
| centrifugal forces in his early theory. (The extent to which
| these forces contribute to plate tectonics is still disputed
| today.) It was only later (after he had drawn the harsh
| criticism quoted in the article) that he considered convection
| currents as the main driving force.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| A good way to get this mindset is to try doing things you don't
| know how to do.
|
| I write a bit about that, here:
| https://littlegreenviper.com/miscellany/thats-not-what-ships...
|
| Reminds me a bit of the old Stephen J. Gould quote:
|
| _"The most erroneous stories are those we think we know best
| -and therefore never scrutinize or question."_
| giantbanana wrote:
| [flagged]
| ftxbro wrote:
| this is such a hacker news article. your autistic childishness is
| actually a superpower with its own japanese word.
| gjvc wrote:
| * * *
| kazinator wrote:
| Shoshin and shoshinsha (beginner) are everyday words in Japanese,
| not special Zen terms.
| sctb wrote:
| And this article is mostly talking about everyday concepts like
| learning. But there's no denying that the idea of beginner's
| mind is used within Zen in a special sense. From Dogen's essay
| _On the Endeavour of the Way_ :
|
| > Because practice within realization occurs at the moment of
| practice, the practice of beginner's mind is itself the entire
| original realization.
| hooverd wrote:
| Does Japan have articles like "Top 10 English concepts to live
| by" where they're all just regular words?
| pzel_ wrote:
| Yes, in the same way as "evangelist" and "novice" are everyday
| words in English. This does not invalidate their original
| religious meaning. Daisetz Suzuki I'm sure was quite aware of
| both the everyday usage and the Buddhist origins.
| sctb wrote:
| Nitpick, but this article quotes Shunryu Suzuki--the other
| Suzuki--not D.T.
| pzel_ wrote:
| Beginner's mistake!
| kazinator wrote:
| "Novice" doesn't originally have religious roots; in the
| story of its etymology, it got sidetracked into religion.
|
| Quite likely because the only dudes who knew Latin in the
| Middle Ages were in monasteries, and so they applied Latin
| words they learned to their circumstances. "Hey, it says here
| that when Romans brought in a new imported, inexperienced
| slave, they called them _novicus_. Let 's use that for our
| newcomers! After all, we make them do chores, like slaves,
| LOLZ!"
| pzel_ wrote:
| I'm going off of this entry:
|
| https://www.etymonline.com/word/novice
|
| Sure the root word might be Latin, (and so is a majority of
| European vocabulary), but the specific usage of "novice"
| meaning "newbie" _in English_ , comes from the monastic
| orders, via French.
|
| Monastic orders, which, in fact, did not "do stuff, like
| slaves, LOLZ", but were instrumental in preserving (or
| rediscovering) knowledge and technology from the imperial
| era.
| thrdbndndn wrote:
| So are lots of other words. Really hate this trend.
| pzel_ wrote:
| Are you referring to the trend of desacralization or
| resacralization of religious terms?
|
| This is the dictionary definition of shoshin from
| kotobank.jp:
|
| > 2 ([shiyohotsushin(Chu Fa Xin )] noLue ) Chu meteWu riwoQiu
| meruXin woQi kosukoto. Fo Dao nihaitsutabakarinokoto. mata,
| sonoRen . [Fa Hua Yi Shu (7CQian )] *Zheng Fa Yan Zang Sui
| Wen Ji (1235-38)Yi [Huo haChu Xin Wei Ru (minihu)noRen Yi De
| (kokorou)
| haswell wrote:
| > _A final, more pleasurable step you can take to increase your
| intellectual humility comes in the form of deliberately invoking
| in oneself the emotion of awe. Several studies have shown that
| awe quietens the ego and prompts epistemological openness - that
| is, a greater willingness to look at things differently and to
| recognise the gaps in one's knowledge._
|
| If you cannot remember the last time you experienced awe, I
| highly recommend seeking it out. It may be important for
| fostering intellectual humility, but it seems just as important
| for fostering a better outlook/framing on life in general and
| brings with it a sense of wellbeing.
|
| After burning out and starting a sabbatical last year, I went on
| a road trip that provided many moments of awe: a snowy mountain
| sunrise in the Rockies, the Milky Way in one of the darkest spots
| in Utah, long hikes through the redwoods, etc.
|
| What struck me was that I had forgotten what these feelings felt
| like, and that I hadn't felt them since I was a kid.
|
| Glimpsing them reminded me how important they are, and I'm
| convinced that sustainability in future work endeavors (and life
| in general) involves an appropriate dose of awe and wonder on an
| ongoing basis.
|
| Road trips into the desert aren't necessary to experience this
| either (for me anyway) - just a very effective way to guarantee
| the experience (again, for me). But I can find it by pondering
| the bigger questions about life and the sheer improbability of
| our existence. Dedicating some regular time to this kind of
| reflection has been beneficial.
|
| And I do find that I'm more open to possibilities. But that seems
| like just one of the outcomes from the "nourishment" of these
| experiences.
| mikrl wrote:
| I took a walk last night to look at the sunset, and felt a
| strong feeling of both awe and melancholy as I did so.
|
| Is it really so rare to be awed by natural beauty, or just
| humbled by where one is in life relative to oneself in the
| past, and others (both more and less fortunate) in the present?
|
| When I think of friends made, friends not present, and all of
| the life trajectories that I can keep track of, I feel it's all
| just a long and strange trip, man.
| vmoore wrote:
| > If you cannot remember the last time you experienced awe, I
| highly recommend seeking it out
|
| The older I get, the more I appreciate the sheer vastness of
| space and the amount of stuff in it, and contrasting the size
| of it to our little pale blue dot. The Nihilists will say our
| time here is all meaningless and we'll eventually be swallowed
| by the Sun if we don't go star faring. We better get our act
| together in terms of space travel before it's too late.
|
| We need to think long-term and occupy Mars, then taken to its
| logical conclusion: Von Neumann machines which populate our
| galaxy. That's if we're not sucked into the black hole in the
| center of our galaxy. But at least we gave it a shot. We
| outsmarted the natural cycles of the solar system and
| transcended it, possibly building a Dyson sphere around the Sun
| and then hopped to other star systems and built Dyson spheres
| around them.
|
| When I was young, I knew the Universe was very big. But over
| the years, helped by various documentaries, YouTube videos, and
| various psychedelics, I surmised we are destined for something
| much more than mere Earth. Our spirit cries for space travel,
| yet at the same time it's hampered by the rape of the planet
| and late-stage capitalism and 'infinite growth' at all costs.
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| Going to the stars at all costs is similarly destructive.
|
| This galaxy won't last forever. Even this expanse may
| collapse and be reborn. If matter is eternal then life will
| probably arise again. So relax, enjoy the ride, and do what
| you can to leave the place better than you found it.
| tremon wrote:
| _If you cannot remember the last time you experienced awe_
|
| I experienced it earlier today, browsing the demo's linked from
| this story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36597460
| kristopolous wrote:
| This can be said way more briefly:
|
| "what would teenage you be like here"
|
| Follow those instincts (presuming you weren't a slacker) and
| that's it.
| photochemsyn wrote:
| This author's example does not inspire confidence in the rest of
| the article:
|
| > "Take the matter of genetically modified (GM) foods, which are
| overwhelmingly considered to be safe based on current scientific
| knowledge. Research has shown that people who hold the strongest
| anti-GM views, believing that they are harmful, are the most
| inclined to overestimate their relevant knowledge."
|
| If I insert the genes coding the enzymatic pathway for production
| of a virulent mammalian toxin into a maize plant, that's going to
| be very unsafe, particularly if pollen from that plant can carry
| those genes into someone's non-GMO cornfield.
|
| On the other hand, if I make a minor specific edit to the
| regulatory region upstream from a gene that controls the onset of
| flowering in a tomato plant, with the idea of producing an early-
| flowering varietal for northern climates, that's entirely safe
| (assuming no other accidental changes were made).
|
| Claiming that GMO foods are 'universally acknowledged to be safe'
| is like claiming metallurgy is universally acknowledged to be
| safe. It all depends on the specific application and how it's
| done, e.g. heavy metal pollution is a major issue in many places
| because of lack of pollution controls.
|
| Placing blind faith in governmental and corporate scientists
| because they wear the white coats of authority is not that
| different from blind obedience to the priestly caste of prior
| centuries. If they can't provide explanations that the educated
| layperson can understand, and if they can't respond to detailed
| criticisms of their claims, then they should not be trusted.
| zackmorris wrote:
| I can offer an analogy. Growing up in the northwestern US, I've
| seen firsthand how 95% of the forest in the lower 48 was
| harvested for timber, leaving only small pockets of primordial
| forest. That and global warming delivered us the runaway fire
| seasons we have today where summer is synonymous with poor air
| quality, poor water quality, erosion, loss of habitat, etc etc
| etc.
|
| There are countless propaganda billboards here that say stuff
| like "thin the threat". The timber industry really wants to get
| back into wilderness areas and places designated roadless by
| the Clinton administration back in the 90s.
|
| But what I think most of us want is for the timber industry to
| admit their guilt. Basically that would look something like a
| bankruptcy and a multi-billion dollar apology in the form of
| trusts and endowments to leave forests alone and invest in
| stuff like tree farms and hemp. Which will never come.
|
| I've yet to see a major apology from GMO companies for the ways
| they've corrupted staple crops like wheat. We're eating
| processed whole grains today that were meant for animal feed
| (cows have 4 stomachs that can handle it, we can't), stuff like
| oatmeal loaded with glyphosate, and it's attacking our gut
| lining and causing autoimmune diseases at a scale that the
| previous generation can't understand.
|
| So until there are reparations for the damage done, we simple
| can't trust those companies or the government agencies they've
| captured, or the politicians they've bought, or the court
| justices they've installed. The problem goes so deep in our
| political system that people can't even see it anymore. That's
| why the wealthy owners of those companies keep us divided over
| the merits of various remedies, so we don't wake up to the
| facts of how we're being manipulated into giving up our health
| to shave a few pennies off the price to increase their profits.
|
| Edit: I'm struggling to find evidence for the effects of whole
| grain husks on the gut lining. But basically, the anti-pest
| compounds in grain husks make it past stomach acid, and when
| the villi (papillae was maybe the wrong term) in the lining of
| the small intestine try to eat the partially-digested proteins,
| it damages or kills them. The cycle of damage and repair
| continues through life until middle age, when the cells start
| losing their healing ability. Then one acquires sensitivity to
| wheat and other grains like I did, which I originally thought
| was sensitivity to legumes and nightshades:
|
| https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2020.51731...
|
| Then the villi become sparse or die, leaving the person unable
| to easily absorb vitamins and minerals, sending them into
| chronic starvation mode and obesity:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intestinal_villus#Villous_atro...
|
| GMOs exacerbate this by increasing the percentages of anti-pest
| compounds in husks. I try to avoid whole grains now after a
| lifetime of seeking them. If I must eat them, I try to stick to
| organic.
| wakamoleguy wrote:
| It's possible that you are struggling to find evidence
| because the evidence points in the other direction. For
| example, from the review article you linked:
|
| "Based on all available scientific knowledge, wheat
| consumption is safe and healthy for the vast majority of
| people. There is no scientific evidence to support that the
| general population would benefit from a wheat-free diet."
|
| Step 1 of fostering "shoshin" was to explain a theory or idea
| to someone else. Now step 2 is to stay aware of confirmation
| bias.
| renewiltord wrote:
| > _On the other hand, if I make a minor specific edit to the
| regulatory region upstream from a gene that controls the onset
| of flowering in a tomato plant, with the idea of producing an
| early-flowering varietal for northern climates, that 's
| entirely safe (assuming no other accidental changes were
| made)._
|
| No, this is not true if someone is pointing a nuclear missile
| at NYC and will fire it if you "make a minor specific edit to
| the regulatory region upstream from a gene that controls the
| onset of flowering in a tomato plant". It's important that you
| clarify the point by also adding in the caveat excluding this
| case. I am also told that what you propose is unsafe in the
| event that there is a terrorist with a bomb who will explode in
| Penn Station if you make that edit.
|
| It is important that we be precise with safety language since
| otherwise we may mislead people about the state of the field.
| Please be more responsible.
| ntumlin wrote:
| This is nonsense, it's obvious what type of safety OP meant.
| I have no idea what could be irresponsible about not
| including contrived, ridiculous scenarios.
|
| It's like saying he also should have accounted for the
| possibility fairies will turn you into a newt if you edit a
| gene, or into a rabbit, or if a wizard will turn you into a
| newt. You can make up an infinite amount of this bs.
| renewiltord wrote:
| That's a pretty good point. We can make up an infinite
| number of contrived scenarios and it is obvious from
| context what type of safety is meant.
| adr1an wrote:
| First, even if the author is mistaken with regards to GM foods,
| it's credibility with regards to shoshin shouldn't be affected
| (e.g. how are GMO and shoshin related??)
|
| Secondly, your hypothetical super toxic GM food doesn't exist.
| He was referring to reality, not to sci-fi horror movies GM
| food where a mad scientist makes a maize expressing lethal
| bacterial toxins.
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