[HN Gopher] Underground heat is shifting Chicago's foundations
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Underground heat is shifting Chicago's foundations
Author : bookofjoe
Score : 57 points
Date : 2023-07-15 17:24 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com)
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| [flagged]
| AlbertCory wrote:
| I think the only person confused about the use of the phrase
| "climate change" is you. The title is "Heat Down Below Is
| Making the Ground Shift Under Chicago" So how is that
| clickbait?
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| Apparently not, since mine is currently the comment with the
| most upvotes on this story.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| Oh, well, sorry then. HN has spoken.
|
| Edit: oh noes! Not the top anymore.
| pc86 wrote:
| It's fixed now
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| "Climate change" describes the consequence, not the mechanism.
| So it also makes sense in this context and is consistent with
| the other use.
|
| If the people working in this field find it intuitively similar
| enough to justify using the term, I don't have any particular
| reason to question their motives about it. Using a similar term
| does not necessarily mean "confusing two different phenomena".
|
| Bike wheels and airplane wheels work very differently, for
| different purposes, but are similar enough in enough ways to
| justify using the same term. It's quite possible to
| differentiate when that's necessary, and also it usually isn't.
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| Perhaps technically, but words acquire meaning and nuance
| separate from their technical definitions.
|
| I have a very strong difficulty believing that scientists who
| call this "underground climate change" aren't doing this with
| the _deliberate_ intent to latch on to all the press
| /importance of atmospheric climate change.
|
| > Bike wheels and airplane wheels work very differently, for
| different purposes, but are similar enough in enough ways to
| justify using the same term. It's quite possible to
| differentiate when that's necessary, and also it usually
| isn't.
|
| Do you honestly believe that analogy has anything to do with
| the point I'm making here?
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| I'm just not that skeptical of their motives, I guess. Nor
| am I particularly alarmed if that _is_ an aspect of why
| they 've chosen it.
|
| The idea that science is a completely neutral endeavor
| completely separate from the world it takes place in is
| pure fantasy. A modest amount of marketing for the research
| is part of doing the research, and always has been.
| derriz wrote:
| I force myself to be careful to use the word cynicism
| instead of skepticism - the former word describes an a
| malevolent intention while the latter does not. I do this
| as an exercise as it's been too easy for me (I've a
| skeptical nature - an extreme form of curiosity I think)
| to slip from skepticism to cynicism. Claims can be
| factually incorrect but for many reasons - and once you
| start building theories of motivation, it's too easy to
| be sidetracked by emotion and prejudice. Skepticism is
| healthy but requires sticking to trying to determine
| truths and just ignoring possible motivations. Excuse the
| barely relevant ramble but I found this approach would
| have saved me aggravation earlier in my life.
| lisasays wrote:
| _That is really, really f 'ing annoying,_
|
| Local soil dynamics are changing, due to human activity. So
| "(localized) climate change" is a perfectly reasonable
| description of what's happening, to a first order
| approximation.
|
| The rest is just fluff and bother. I can see someone having a
| "meh" reaction to this choice of language. But to be "really,
| really fucking annoyed" by it?
|
| I submit there are other, much bigger and genuinely sinister
| things at loose in the world you might want to direct your
| precious capacities to be "really, really fucking annoyed" at.
|
| _My suspicion is that scientists would use the term
| "underground climate change" [to get more press]"_
|
| More likely they were just trying to put the matter in a terms
| the lay person would understand.
| bookofjoe wrote:
| https://archive.ph/A6krV
| nonameiguess wrote:
| This was actually published in an open-access journal, by the
| way, so it may as well be read there:
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s44172-023-00092-1
|
| The phenomenon seems to present both challenges and
| opportunities. Vertical ground displacement can stress building
| foundations and load-bearing structure components, not
| necessarily leading to building collapse or anything, but cracks,
| operational failure, excessive repair costs. On the other hand,
| capturing the waste heat could actually be fed back into the
| system to directly heat other buildings without needing to draw
| from the energy grid, so with more appropriate foundation
| designs, this phenomenon could actually be purely a good thing.
|
| The study here also publishes its code and data, by the way, so
| feel free to play around with it.
|
| I think it's unfortunate, but indicative of the incentives
| created by an upvote-based commenting system that the top comment
| here for a while was a person who picked out a single sentence
| and derailed the discussion within three minutes of the link
| being posted (I'm sure they read the whole article before doing
| that). Kinda shame on the New York Times for wording it that way,
| "scientists have taken to calling it." This study was published
| by one author and he's a civil engineer. Googling this phrase
| doesn't indicate anyone else I can ever find using it.
| pengaru wrote:
| Chicago's foundations were built on marshland and mud, then
| raised in the 1800s to accommodate a drainage and sewage system.
| I'm sure that has nothing to do with it. /s
|
| https://gizmodo.com/chicago-was-raised-more-than-4-feet-in-t...
| screwturner68 wrote:
| likely not, most of the buildings you mention were torn down or
| burned in 1871. There only a few areas in the city where these
| buildings still exist and they are small single/multi family
| building that will stand until somebody decides to knock them
| down. Most of the buildings in question are the sky scrapers
| which were first built in 1885, the streets were raised in
| 1855.
| pengaru wrote:
| It's still built on marsh/mud
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| Are there not pylons down into bedrock below the marsh and
| mud?
| [deleted]
| trillic wrote:
| The John Hancock building has some of the deepest
| caissons of any building in the world into bedrock.
| MR4D wrote:
| Yes, but that bedrock is way down there.
|
| From [0] : "Construction of the John Hancock Center began
| in 1965; however, was stopped in 1967 because the
| building kept sinking. Because of the John Hancock
| Center's lakeside location, 57 concrete caissons had to
| be sunk into 10 ft wide holes drilled 197-feet below
| grade into bedrock, resulting in the John Hancock Center
| having the deepest foundation of any building at the
| time."
|
| [0] - https://www.beck-technology.com/blog/how-did-they-
| build-that...
| mcpackieh wrote:
| Are you thinking it might be decay heat from the marsh?
| With the right conditions, compost heaps and peat bogs can
| light themselves on fire.
| [deleted]
| MollyRealized wrote:
| Having resided in Chicago since 1997, I've observed how the
| city's image, known as Democratic since the 1940s (our last GOP
| mayor), gained national significance with the onset of Obama's
| campaign and presidency. This relevance was partially due to
| Obama's Chicago roots, leading to a dramatic change in the city's
| portrayal by a more radicalized Republican party.
|
| Since then I've seen Chicago depicted as a dangerous, gang-ridden
| city, a portrayal that doesn't align with my firsthand
| experiences. I reside near Uptown, an area frequently labeled as
| one of Chicago's riskiest neighborhoods and coincidentally, a
| predominantly African-American district on the North Side. Yet, I
| perceive it as secure as the suburban regions I grew up in.
|
| As a result, this personal experience has fostered skepticism
| towards outside news coverage about Chicago, especially those
| entangled with coverage on topics one can count upon to be
| politically polarized.
|
| Just my $0.02, but perhaps weightier than usual due to the long-
| term of it all.
| sydbarrett74 wrote:
| I was last in Chicago back in 2013, so my experience may be a
| bit stale.
|
| I was walking all over the Loop at 2AM and felt completely
| safe. It was refreshing. I'd never feel safe doing that in my
| home city (Richmond, VA).
|
| Granted, the Loop is the CBD, so it's probably inherently safer
| than other parts of Chicagoland, but it's still rather amazing
| to me to feel so comfortable in the country's third largest
| city.
| HDThoreaun wrote:
| The loop is actually one of my least favorite places to be at
| night. Everything closes by 9 since no one lives there and
| then it's like a creepy ghost town.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| How visitors "feel" when walking around has about zero
| correlation with how safe they actually are. I would bet we
| could find visitors to Richmond, VA who "felt safe" walking
| around areas you wouldn't be caught dead in after dark.
| HDThoreaun wrote:
| Most people care far more about feeling safe than being
| safe.
| tiahura wrote:
| My parents left Chicago in 1974 because it was becoming unsafe.
| A group of youths killed the corner magazine shop owner where
| they bought comics. It has only gone downhill since then. My
| dad had been groussing about Michael Madigan since 1975.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| callalex wrote:
| This comment seems to be contributing to the exact problem it
| is complaining about. You are rambling about politics and
| racism, neither of which are mentioned in any way, shape, or
| form in the linked article.
| hodgesrm wrote:
| Well, HN is kind of famous for veering off topic. It has its
| pluses and minuses.
| MildRant wrote:
| This is not HN specific. People only read headlines so they
| can't say anything about the actual topic at hand but they
| want to say something so they say something tangentially
| relevant.
| hodgesrm wrote:
| Is that the case here? Sometimes people have something
| they want to get off their chest. Some of the more
| interesting HN conversations start that way. As well as
| the more boring ones like ranting about ads on the
| website where the article appeared.
|
| You'll have to pardon me. It's Saturday afternoon and I'm
| just idly reading the comments on this topic.
| striking wrote:
| Off topic comments belong at the bottom of a thread.
| Aurornis wrote:
| For a counterpoint, I had several friends move to Chicago over
| the years. I met up with some of them and their new Chicago
| friends. They were swapping tips for how and where to hide
| valuables like their laptops in their apartments when they went
| out because they had all been burglarized so frequently.
|
| My close friend was burglarized 3 separate times one winter.
| Once while he was home (so technically robbed, I guess). They
| even took his winter coat.
|
| Every city has good parts and bad parts. You sound like you
| live in a good part. Doesn't mean that bad parts don't exist.
| frankfrankfrank wrote:
| [dead]
| AlbertCory wrote:
| If your idea of Chicago history begins with the 1940s, you need
| to do some homework. Ever heard of Al Capone & Eliot Ness?
|
| > known as Democratic since the 1940s ..., gained national
| significance with the onset of Obama's campaign and presidency
|
| No, it gained "national significance" with the 1968 Democratic
| Convention, the Martin Luther King marches in Cicero in the
| 60's, and the Weathermen riots of 1969.
|
| As for your "perceptions" they might be more persuasive if
| accompanied by some crime maps.
| qingcharles wrote:
| I lived in Uptown in 2010-2011. I thought the violence was
| over-hyped, although you could often hear gunshots at night. I
| suspect the area is probably even more gentrified now.
|
| Having just done five years in the Cook County Jail though I
| got to see first-hand the sheer amount of gang-related crimes
| that were being committed. I feel that as a white guy I am
| applying some sort of filter to my reality which avoids me
| hearing or knowing about most of the violence in the City,
| which is predominantly Black-on-Black violence.
|
| Parts of the City are very segregated though. I live in Chatham
| neighborhood on the South Side now and most days I am the only
| white person I see here. They call me Mr Detective. I'm
| routinely told this is an extremely violent neighborhood, and I
| keep hearing about shootings and deaths, but somehow my reality
| filter means I miss seeing any of it in person. I keep being
| told that it is too dangerous and I shouldn't live here. This
| is the friendliest neighborhood I've lived in in Chicago.
| Everyone here on the streets greets you as you go by.
|
| Chicago is a weird, messed-up city. Plus the weather is nuts.
| trillic wrote:
| Thundersnow, tornadoes, feet of snow, freezing rain, 105 F
| days. What's not to love about the weather?
| joshvm wrote:
| A relevant discussion about the same issue in London caused by
| over a century of public transport (in deep tunnels though). I'm
| not sure the argument that surface climate change has no effect
| is true, using a single heat wave year as an example. I guess
| it's a long term trend and it probably takes time for the ground
| to warm (still small compared to 15C from the tube).
|
| https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/cooling-the-tube-engine...
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