[HN Gopher] Embrace Complexity; Tighten Your Feedback Loops ___________________________________________________________________ Embrace Complexity; Tighten Your Feedback Loops Author : lutzh Score : 108 points Date : 2023-07-22 11:30 UTC (11 hours ago) (HTM) web link (ferd.ca) (TXT) w3m dump (ferd.ca) | kaycebasques wrote: | This comment is in reference to the second to last paragraph | (there's something weird going on with that page that's | preventing me from copying text on my mobile). That paragraph | says something like "by being outside silos you can carry | information around and tie it all together". | | I've been thinking about my role as a technical writer (TW) | recently. I think TWs have a lot of opportunity to operate in a | similar way. The real name of the game for my line of work is | organizational knowledge management. For example, I've had some | [1] success getting Eng teams to dump common Q&A into Stack | Overflow so that the next time the issue comes up they can just | link customers to that answer. It often feels a bit more | lightweight and less intimidating than updating the official | docs. Also the Q and A nature of Stack Overflow keeps the docs | request tightly scoped. And of course the end result is that the | knowledge is much more accessible. | | On the other hand, maybe there's nothing special about SREs or | TWs here and "organizational knowledge management" is the name of | the game for every role in the org. We all just tackle the | problem from a different angle. | | [1] Emphasis on "some" here. Sometimes it works very well, other | times it doesn't go anywhere. | ilaksh wrote: | A lot of good information. | | But my cynical worker viewpoint is that the problem is really | that upper management doesn't do the actual work and that is by | design. It's a class separation. They are there to crack the whip | and collect the spoils. | | The only way for upper management to really understand what's | going on and give useful input would be for them to be directly | involved on a day-to-day basis. | | In other words, they would have to do actual work. | | That's not going to happen. So the best they can do is to stay | out of the way of people who are actually working, avoid making | decrees, and maybe try to keep the other managers from | interfering with the work also. | | Maybe another approach would be for the workers to share more | equally in the spoils so that they would be naturally inclined to | integrate business improvements and goals. But that's never going | to happen. | | The structure is much more directly related to a caste system | than people may acknowledge. | TheCowboy wrote: | I've often encountered software that feels like it was designed | by people who don't have to use it to do work, and not | necessarily because they're engaging in class conflict (though | it can certainly appear that way based on the painfully flawed | software people can be forced to tolerate). | | The worst system was a DOS-based point-of-sale system in a | restaurant---kept around way beyond the 'age of DOS'. The main | gimmick is that it had a wired light touch pen (I think it | worked like a classic Nintendo gun) for selection. It gave the | illusion of innovation/ease of use, but was extremely | cumbersome and required a good amount of experience to avoid | mistakes. | | I also think trying to pin down things as strictly class | warfare every time can muddy problem areas. Institutions | realistically do gain some functional productivity by having | people specialize and having defined roles, but having them too | separated and specialized can also create problems. You can | also have a lazy human problem, where people don't want to do | the work that isn't directly associated with their role, and so | on. There is also a lot in the bschool lit about how different | business structures contribute to these problems too. | paulryanrogers wrote: | Ironic since my experience during the transition away from | ASCII displays and shortcut inputs is that the touch screens | and deep menus were slow. Touch won because it was more | approachable, at least for the shallowest options | mwerd wrote: | That's a point of view that would change quickly if you were in | one of those management positions. | | You get to a point where it's impossible to do the work | anymore. There's too much of it. You have to develop teams, | processes, structure, etc. that delivers the outcomes you're | accountable for with full knowledge that you cannot do them | yourself. It's very different than doing the work and | experience shows that fewer people are capable of doing it, | especially with any repeatability. The working world yearns for | effective managers. | | I encourage you to compare the productivity of the modern | multinational corporation to any commune in history. The people | working in collectives are not stupid or lazy. It's not an | effective structure. | chrisdbanks wrote: | Agree. In fact one problem many have when new to management | is actually doing the work themselves rather than coaching | others to achieve it. | LapsangGuzzler wrote: | > I encourage you to compare the productivity of the modern | multinational corporation to any commune in history. The | people working in collectives are not stupid or lazy. It's | not an effective structure. | | It's a hard comparison to make when the goals of those two | systems are vastly different. | | I worked for a multinational software company and the amount | of waste I saw was just staggering. If outside shareholders | knew how little we actually produced on a day to day basis, | they would probably be appalled. But because the company knew | how to engage with market analysts, we looked good on paper. | So much of the money made today involves just being the | biggest player in a given market, regardless of how effective | the product is (i.e. "nobody ever got fired for choosing | Microsoft") | AndrewKemendo wrote: | >They are there to crack the whip and collect the spoils | | This is historically correct | | Here's a recent unambiguous proof from Tesla's own words: | | "Tesla argued that stock options were used to ensure Director's | incentives were aligned with investor goals." [1] | | Said another way, "we massively over-paid directors in order to | give them an incentive to prioritize investor goals over all | other goals" | | In the parlance of finance this is the only goal and the | ultimate decision that cannot be questioned. | | I have seen this made explicit in multiple organizations as a | Director or Senior Manager. As a manager, if you are explicit | in supporting employee benefits over increase in stock price or | C-Suite direction (when given the choice) then you should | expect no further growth or promotions (unless you can | manipulate the org or have some damaging information on the | company). | | >Maybe another approach would be for the workers to share more | equally in the spoils so that they would be naturally inclined | to integrate business improvements and goals | | The strong form of this is a worker-owned-cooperative but | second to that are labor unions. So if you want to change it, | then start/join a union and stop creating corporations with | separate ownership rules for investors. | | [1]https://www.engadget.com/tesla-directors-agree-to- | return-735... | chrisdbanks wrote: | Workers vs investors shouldn't be seen as a zero sum game. If | it is then that's short-term thinking. Simon Sinek explains | this all very well in The Infinite Game. | PartiallyTyped wrote: | Why should they care about long term health of the company | when their stake can change [almost] on a whim? | | The whole system seems to exist for short term profits. | slt2021 wrote: | Any non-zero sum game can be re-formulated in zero-sum game | terms, this is a rule. | | Give me example of any non-zero sum game, and I can prove | that under the hood it is actually a zero-sum game. | | The trivial proof is that profit/revenue pool available for | Corporation is limited, and the main question is how that | profit pool is to be divided among Labor (employees) and | Capital (investors/shareholders). | | The fundamental laws of mass/energy preservation equally | apply to money - you can't create money out of thin air, it | has to be taken from someone else (customer) and then | redistributed (among | suppliers/labor/investors/shareholders/tax man) | snovv_crash wrote: | How does this model account for varying growth based on | employee alignment with company goals? | slt2021 wrote: | Think of annual profit generated by company as a fixed | pie. or total market as a giant pie. | | Question is how to slice a pie between Labor and Capital? | | Now we know that IT is a growing market, and next year | pie will be bigger, much bigger. That's why Capital needs | Labor to cooperate along and work as efficiently as | possible to capture maximum slice of pie for the | Corporation next year and the year after. | | That's why they give variable compensation and give sense | of ownership. Just by giving out 0.1% of shares, Capital | is able to extract max value form Labor and make their | pie grow at 30-40% per year. | | Absolutely killer deal for Capital. | | That's how zuckerberg et al become billionaires, while | employees who created the money making machine are mere | (multi)millionaires. | | you join stage B startup and get 0.01% of company as ISO | options, but you do the 100% of the work required to make | product and grow company from $10M valuation to $10B | valuation. Three orders of magnitude growth for Capital, | while Labor get 1/1000 of that growth | admax88qqq wrote: | > Now we know that IT is a growing market, | | That's literally a non zero sum game. You can phrase it | as cynically as you like, but that's still the definition | of a non zero sum game. | slt2021 wrote: | it is zero sum when it comes to Labor vs Capital | relationship. | | Counter example to your claim: if giving out RSUs is not | zero-sum, then why don't Companies give me as many RSUs | as possible, since they are not losing anything and it is | not zero-sum game, by your definition? | aschearer wrote: | Giving and receiving love is not zero-sum. Cultivating | mutual trust is not zero-sum. | slt2021 wrote: | it is not zero-sum between two parties (as in if one | party shows more love, there is a chance it will create | more mutual love from the other party). | | But, the problem can be reformulated as zero-sum in terms | of time: Time is the ultimate scarce and zero-sum | resource, you cannot create time, only redistribute. | | The more time we spend with the loved ones, less time we | have for other things like hobbies and work. Company | wants people to spend maximum time on work and worker | efficiency (so called "career growth"), and less time on | personal life etc. For corporation - worker's attention | is absolutely zero-sum game and they want maximum of | worker's attention, on top of 9-5. | | That's why they create more employee love by throwing | benefits, free food and snacks, corporate parties so that | they spend less time on personal matters and work more | toward the company's goals. | AndrewKemendo wrote: | Simon is wrong. | | It is absolutely zero sum for any measure that matters over | periods that are impactful to individual and familial human | flourishing | | This capitalist rationalization of greed-based markets, | loves to pick whatever timeline for measurement which fits | their criteria. | | It is unambiguous that wealth and power accumulation will | persistently concentrate into the smallest number of hands | in absence of collective structural countermeasures. | | So the default state of large scale capatalist systems | follows power law in both wealth and power distribution. | It's a mathematical reality that is shown over and over and | over to repeat itself | Zetice wrote: | You're pitching this as truth when in reality it's just | one viewpoint. Simon is not "wrong" any more than you are | "wrong". You're just arguing from different perspectives. | capitalsigma wrote: | Most big tech firms give engineers RSUs for this reason | slt2021 wrote: | also SBC (share based comp) looks favorably on cash flow | statement, because SBC does not decrease EBITDA, thus | artificially inflating EBITDA numbers and price target of | the company. | | How this works: new SaaS startup shows up and shows $10M | EBITDA to investors. This does not reflect $5M in SBC. | | According to industry averages, bankers apply average (lets | say 10x) EBITDA multiple and derive valuation of $100M and | invest funds based on that calculation. | | Had company paid cash salary instead of RSUs, firms' EBITDA | would have been $5M and valuation of $50M - a half of | original pitched value | | Obviously this is just a naiive textbook example, and | actual valuations are more complex and involve several ways | of deriving value and multiples, but in general RSU is | viewed favorably mainly because it improves Cash Flow from | Operations and EBITDA numbers - in addition to creating | incentives to employees | AndrewKemendo wrote: | Indeed, which are sub class of stock with no power. | | So it's the same story and is effectively a lottery ticket. | spacephysics wrote: | To be frank, this has an anti-capitalist smell and I don't feel | is written in good faith. | | Sure there are managers that crack the whip, but most the | places I've worked for, my manager was a former IC and cared | deeply about the health of the product, while protecting the IC | team I was on from the business side. | | Learning more about the business portion and product manager | viewpoints, gives me a more sympathetic tone to the whole | situation. | | We shouldn't expect someone whose career they've focused on the | business side to understand the software in depth. Sure there's | space to learn _anything_ , but people have lives outside of | career. Instead, a healthy company delegates these tasks out. | It's the responsibility of my manager to have one foot in the | software, and one in the business, to help best translate and | champion towards a common goal. | | It's the responsibility of her managers to respect the | decisions she makes, and when hard lines are drawn for the sake | of the health of the product to adhere to them. Within reason, | of course. | | This to me makes me feel excited to go to work (not every day, | I'm not a psycho :) ), and makes me want to climb the ladder. I | get paid well, produce value for the company, and get | opportunities to work on challenges and with data/systems that | I otherwise would not be able to. | | With that knowledge, I can then take that to my side business | and more effectively grow it. Don't think there's any "they're | taking the spoils" going on... | [deleted] | tempodox wrote: | I like the fucking-around/finding-out graph. It looks realistic | to me (implicitly assuming the right kind of fucking around). And | yes, tighten your feedback loops. | GuB-42 wrote: | > and maybe try to keep the other managers from interfering with | the work also. | | I think that's what good managers are supposed to do. As in, | that's their entire job. | | Managers are not necessarily good at doing the actual work, but | hopefully, the people they manage are. The thing is: running a | business involves a lot more than doing the "actual work", | coordination, dealing with customers, etc... Managers are | supposed to shield workers from all that, so that they can | concentrate on the "actual work". | | For example, a somewhat idealized but not so far from the truth | exchange with my manager could look like: | | - The customers is unhappy with the latest release, he says that | X doesn't work as expected, can you tell me why? | | - Uhm... X wasn't in the specs so it wasn't tested, but sure, it | is a bug | | - Ok, how long you think it will it take to fix it? | | - Probably around two days | | - Ok, let's make it 4 to account for risk and management. It | shouldn't cause major delays but I may need to find some extra | budget, I will negotiate with the customer since it wasn't | originally planned. In the meantime, work on fixing that bug and | tell me how it goes. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-07-22 23:00 UTC)