[HN Gopher] CEOs' pay climbed before layoffs at tech giants like...
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       CEOs' pay climbed before layoffs at tech giants like Alphabet and
       Microsoft
        
       Author : pg_1234
       Score  : 64 points
       Date   : 2023-08-05 21:21 UTC (1 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (southernillinoisnow.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (southernillinoisnow.com)
        
       | nine_zeros wrote:
       | CEOs pay is tied to the stock price. They will do whatever it
       | takes to boost the stock price, until they are out with a golden
       | parachute. From their perspective, the business is all about
       | boosting the stock price. It doesn't matter if the boost comes
       | from innovation, or from polluting the planet, or from
       | unscrupulous addictive practices, or from culling the employees.
       | 
       | Employees are merely, an often undesired, side-effect in the
       | business of boosting stock prices.
        
         | mjevans wrote:
         | Executive stock prices should vest at the first of 25 years
         | from the date earned or 10 years after they've left the
         | company. That would encourage long term strategies rather than
         | pump and dump.
        
           | spacemanspiff01 wrote:
           | [dead]
        
           | nine_zeros wrote:
           | That would certainly be one way of attaining long term
           | vision.
           | 
           | But who will enforce this requirement? Only pension funds and
           | other large shareholders have any (and often impractical)
           | leverage over the board C-suite. Wall-street shareholders
           | demand faster growth until they themselves can exit out. They
           | don't care about the business or the services or the
           | employees. They want a high growth return, year-over-year
           | until their own investment carry continues to exist.
        
             | toomuchtodo wrote:
             | Stock buybacks used to be illegal. Lots of ways to use
             | policy to encourage long-term shareholder value if boards
             | and corporate bylaws won't.
        
               | nine_zeros wrote:
               | Stock buyback is equivalent to paying a dividend. If
               | stock buybacks are prevented, companies will continue to
               | layoff and pay out dividends. It doesn't solve the root
               | cause that employees don't have a seat at the decision-
               | making table.
               | 
               | At a minimum, if corporation laws were modified such that
               | every laid off employee must be issued 1 year worth of
               | shares as a golden parachute, the incentives will all get
               | aligned very quickly and employees will not be abruptly
               | thrown away.
        
               | s1artibartfast wrote:
               | Stock BuyBacks have nothing to do with long or short-term
               | vision.
        
           | kqr2 wrote:
           | Some companies such as Toyota supposedly have 100 year
           | business plans:
           | 
           | http://www.gongol.com/research/economics/100yearplans/
        
         | kccqzy wrote:
         | And frankly layoffs had almost no effect on their stock prices.
         | Announcing new products, even if quite half-baked AI efforts,
         | had much bigger impact on stock prices than layoffs.
        
           | henry2023 wrote:
           | Ask facebook
        
             | mertd wrote:
             | Meta stock performance is not really attributable to
             | layoffs.
        
         | madballster wrote:
         | That is a very narrow and frankly sweepingly incorrect
         | description of "CEOs" or "companies". They're not all the same.
         | I for one (alongside many other investors) carefully study
         | incentive programs and compensation oversight executed by the
         | board of directors. There are many thoughtful companies (and
         | CEOs) who e.g. align over very long-term targets, such as '5
         | year return on capital". Investors have found out a long time
         | ago that incentivizing by short-term measures such as share
         | price (or revenues, or EPS) can bring about very adverse long-
         | term investing outcomes.
        
         | ChuckMcM wrote:
         | And if you make them subject to "alternative minimum tax" where
         | their stock based compensation is considered regular income for
         | the year it is awarded based on the difference between the
         | strike price and the market price, you "moderate" that process
         | somewhat.
         | 
         | But if you're a politician and your donors are all rich elites
         | who really hated that aspect of AMT you get repeal it for them:
         | https://www.bowlesrice.com/tax-cuts-and-jobs-act-2018-change...
        
           | sjs7007 wrote:
           | > compensation is considered regular income for the year it
           | is awarded based on the difference between the strike price
           | and the market price
           | 
           | Isn't that exactly how it works? Your grant price just
           | determines your number of your shares. When your shares vest
           | they get taxed as regular income for the entirety of the vest
           | amount.
        
         | s1artibartfast wrote:
         | I disagree with pretty much everything you say except this.
         | 
         | >Employees are merely, an often undesired, side-effect in the
         | business of boosting stock prices.
         | 
         | Employees are worse than a side effect, they're a cost center
         | to be avoided if possible. You want to achieve your goals with
         | as few employees as possible.
        
         | tootie wrote:
         | Employees do work and that work is meant to be profitable. If
         | it is, then great. More employees, more profit. If it isn't,
         | they get cut. That's exactly what CEOs are responsible for
         | determining.
        
       | silverkiwi wrote:
       | Deciding to layoff or not is a complex decision. Here the article
       | only looks at Companies that did layoff. Although more difficult,
       | would be interesting to also look at companies that also made
       | this decision and decided not to layoff. Essentially widening the
       | group of Companies evaluated to one step before the layoffs/no
       | layoffs decision is made.
        
         | lock-the-spock wrote:
         | Is there really such a thing as to non-decide? This seems to me
         | a pretty impossible study to do.
        
       | behringer wrote:
       | I'm reminded of the song by Christy Moore about being laid off:
       | 
       | It seems to me such a cruel irony /
       | 
       | He's richer now then he ever was before /
       | 
       | And now my cheque is spent, I can't afford the rent /
       | 
       | There's one law for the rich, one law for the poor /
        
         | taberiand wrote:
         | The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike
         | to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
         | their bread.
         | 
         | - Anatole France
        
       | jtode wrote:
       | It's become tiresome, reading things that pretend this is not
       | business as usual.
        
       | gumballindie wrote:
       | Water is wet.
        
       | gkoberger wrote:
       | I guess I don't get the point of articles like this.
       | 
       | Yeah, we live in a society where all we value is growth. If the
       | company grows, the person who grows it gets more money as a
       | reward. The nameless investors (known as "The Market") all demand
       | more money.. even the employees want growth so their equity is
       | worth more. There's no limit to the growth; there's no Good
       | Enough. There's always more to grow. There's literally no
       | incentives for anyone, from employee to investor to CEO, to do
       | anything but maximize growth. And you can't just grow linearly...
       | as the base valuation grows, to maintain a target percentage the
       | growth itself has to grow. So anything less than growing the
       | growth is a failure.
       | 
       | It's exhausting and never-ending, but every single one of us is
       | culpable to some degree. We all want our 401ks to get bigger and
       | our house to be worth more than when we bought it. There needs to
       | be a much bigger shift in society, otherwise yeah, this is what
       | happens.
       | 
       | It's so depressing. But my point is... this is a symptom of a
       | much bigger mindset we have, mainly in America. And while that
       | mindset has brought us great things, it's also left every single
       | one of us on an infinite treadmill. You can't win at capitalism;
       | every milestone is fleeting in the name of more growth.
        
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       (page generated 2023-08-05 23:00 UTC)