[HN Gopher] Vim Boss ___________________________________________________________________ Vim Boss Author : bpierre Score : 657 points Date : 2023-08-10 17:02 UTC (5 hours ago) (HTM) web link (neovim.io) (TXT) w3m dump (neovim.io) | Dulat_Akan wrote: | keep going bro good post | emerongi wrote: | Vim has soul. It is that chisel you inherited from your grandpa | that you keep using. It fits well in your grip and is | comfortable, even though it lacks the soft rubber that the new | ones in the store have. It's a tool with its own history. | | Reading the comments here, it seems that the hacker's mentality | still lives on. The new young billion-dollar company will be | replaced in another 10-20 years. Vim lives on. I wish to build a | Vim of my own one day. | RetroTechie wrote: | Thought a linked article: | | https://j11g.com/2023/08/07/the-legacy-of-bram-moolenaar/ | | By Jan van den Berg, was a better read. One quote: | | "Vim is a masterpiece, the gleaming precise machining tool from | which so much of modernity was crafted". | | And then this link: | | https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eX9m3g5J-XA | | "7 Habits for Effective Text Editing 2.0" | | 1h20m - If anyone has a transcript or summary: plz. But this was | funny - first comment: | | "I let auto play go on while I was sleeping for 7 hours and went | from Billie Eilish to this" | | Life is weird but I love it :-) | | Disclaimer: I'm not even user of either (Neo)vim or Emacs. As | soon as I read "programmable", I'm off. I just prefer fixed- | function editor that suits my taste , a few minutes of | configuration & go. But that's just me, what do I know? | | That said: good tools serve a purpose. Our world is a better | place with good tools in it - and the ppl who made those tools. | And sometimes their legacy, their philosophy, their way of doing | things, lives on in the code (or the community!) they left | behind. So kudoz to Bram! | mlry wrote: | _> "7 Habits for Effective Text Editing 2.0" | | >1h20m - If anyone has a transcript or summary: plz. But this | was funny - first comment:_ | | Here you go: https://moolenaar.net/habits_2007.pdf | | Courtesy of tlamponi [1]: | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37013315 | RGBCube wrote: | > Disclaimer: I'm not even user of either of (Neo)vim or Emacs. | As soon as I read "programmable", I'm off. I just prefer fixed- | function editor that suits my taste , a few minutes of | configuration & go. But that's just me, what do I know? | | Then Helix may be for you! It uses the Kakoune keybinds, which | make SO MUCH SENSE compared to Vim or Emacs. And it's already | pre configured and includes a lot of useful features. I have | been daily driving it and it's pretty fast and good. Since it | automatically uses LSPs if they are in the PATH, it requires | very minimal configuration, my configuration only includes | theme and some stylistic changes, you can take a look at it if | you'd like: | https://github.com/RGBCube/NixOSConfiguration/blob/master/ma... | petre wrote: | > As soon as I read "programmable", I'm off. I just prefer | fixed-function editor that suits my taste | | I never have to "program" Vim apart from set nocompatible, set | ruler, backspace, indentation and maybe pick another | colorscheme from the defaults (usually torte). | | On neovim I installed lightline and pathogen, monokai | colorscheme and something else I forgot about, maybe syntax | highlighting for some more exotic language. | | The point is Vim _is_ a fixed function editor until you start | loading it up like a xmas tree. | gorjusborg wrote: | > The point is Vim is a fixed function editor until you start | loading it up like a xmas tree. | | Exactly, just because you can doesn't mean you need to, or | should. | bla3 wrote: | I don't know if it's necessary to be competitive about | eulogies, but the one you posted was also touching. Thank you | for posting it. The picture of Bram's GitHub contribution graph | is haunting. | MSFT_Edging wrote: | I once interviewed an intern candidate who bragged about getting | into an argument with Bram on the mailing lists over a possible | vulnerability. Bram insisted it was not important, and this young | gun insisted it was. | | We didn't hire the guy. It's interesting seeing these memorials | for Bram, from what people say he was the polar opposite of this | kid in a good way. | sitzkrieg wrote: | at least they cared enough to stick to their guns i guess | twobitshifter wrote: | The article talks about modesty and meeting in the middle, | but I get the impression that the younger dev didn't want to | budge or understand the other point being made by Bram. | dudus wrote: | Indeed, not 100% clear but it felt like GP was criticizing | the kid. | | The kid enters a security related conversation and Bram not | only listens but engages in the conversation. Seems like you | missed on a great hire. | cweagans wrote: | Bram listened to and engaged in most conversations, I | think. He was very approachable. | anon7331 wrote: | Was this kid arguing about the automatic encrypt/decrypt file | capability and Bram's unwillingness to use a cryptographically | secure algorithm? It was a long, long thread that got heated. | | I was with Bram though! It was never meant to be secure in a | cryptographic sense... | coldtea wrote: | "Never meant to be cryptographically secure" should never go | together with "encrypt/decrypt file capability". | | This can even mean someone's loss of life in the right | (meaning wrong) regime, or property (e.g. storing bitcoin | info there). | | It's like advertising a "self-driving technology" when your | car needs human supervision to not crash and kill you or | someone you fall into. | anon7331 wrote: | I am not sure it's so black and white with encryption. It | depends on your threat model. Keeping it secure from an | angry ex-girlfriend is one thing, but keeping it secure | from a three letter agency is another. | | The mistake you are referring to is someone that assumes | "encrypted" means three letter agency safe, which is a | pretty terrible way to leverage encryption. In that case, | it's exactly like hopping in a Tesla and assuming auto | pilot will take you home without your supervision. | H8crilA wrote: | This would make sense if only it wasn't faster to run | AES_GCM or some other AEAD, than whatever they did there. | coldtea wrote: | > _The mistake you are referring to is someone that | assumes "encrypted" means three letter agency safe, which | is a pretty terrible way to leverage encryption._ | | That's not a mistake, that's table stakes. People reading | that X offers "encryption", should assume its | cryptographically safe to the standards of the day, and | be given that. | | Not just some "safe from your spouse, ...maybe..." | glorified rot13. | | Else, just don't offer it. It's not Vim's place to offer | "file encryption" anyway, especially if they can't keep | that promise. It's fine not to offer it. | | And it doesn't have to be a "three letter agency" that's | the threat. The "angry ex-girlfriend" could might as well | be a programmer. Or have a script-kiddie nephew. Or know | a person or two who can use off-the-shelf tools to | decrypt it. And the file might have things like a | person's bank account passwords. | gitaarik wrote: | Today at a train station in the Netherlands (Utrecht) I noticed | something special. I saw the letters hjkl on the sign in reverse | order. These letters indentify the platform areas where you can | enter the train. Depending on the length of the platform and the | area where the train has entrances, it shows the letters. | | https://postimg.cc/mcCWhMXw | | Either this was super coincidence, or someone at the NS (the | Dutch train company) is a vim fan and payed tribute to Bram like | this. | zabzonk wrote: | not a coincedence or tribute - same has been the same in the uk | for many years. the letter "i" is typically not used for such | purposes because it can so easily be confused with numeric "1" | or alpha "l". | gitaarik wrote: | Although, thinking about it now, the letters do come after each | other in the alpbabeth except that the I is missing between the | H and J, but maybe they did that intentionally because it can | be confused with the lower case L. So maybe just coincidence | after all, but still it was special for me. I never saw this at | the trains and now suddenly the week after Bram passed away | this shows up. | emerongi wrote: | Although I use vim, I associate these letters more with the | home row for touch typists. | 29athrowaway wrote: | Bram is a guy who could have chosen to make millions but instead | helped millions. | zgluck wrote: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator_for_life has a | list of BDFLs. Bram is the first BDFL in that list who has passed | away. We're in for a generational shift the coming decade(s). It | makes sense to prepare - that is how you preserve a legacy. | | I've been impressed with how Bram's passing has been handled by | his family and friends with respect to his legacy and the future | of vim. | chaps wrote: | Vim has had a legitimate impact on my life. Over the past 15 | years I've been using it, "set -o vi" and similar in psql/ipython | get added into my rc files almost immediately on a new host. | Many, many hours upon hours of living in a shell have been made | so much more enjoyable because of his work. | | Thank you for posting this. Rest in peace, friend. | ansible wrote: | Thanks Bram. | | I've been using Vim (and sometimes more recently Neovim) for over | 30 years (nearly every work day of my entire career), having used | `vi` on various BSD systems in school. In all that time, I've | never been on the mailing list for Vim, asked a question or | submitted a bug report. _I 've never needed to do so_. Because | I've never run into a bug or had a question that couldn't be | answered by the built in documentation. | | A quality software project, lead by a quality man. You've been an | inspiration. | aprao wrote: | I reflected on my Vim journey after Bram passed away. It has been | my only constant professional companion in the past 10 years - | from university projects to FAANGs to everything-on-fire | startups. All professional work I have done - the ones I am proud | of, the ones that I am ashamed of, the ones that got me | promotions and the ones that resulted in $M SEVs - was done on | Vim. Oses/DBs/PLs/companies/co-workers come and go, but Vim has | been forever. | | Thanks Bram. | parentheses wrote: | Aside from the POSIX toolchain/kernel/etc and browser (which I'd | use if it neatly embedded into vim), vim and its siblings are | together the most used program on my machine. | | It's only today that I am forced to think about this: One person | drove that program from an idea in their head to a high-quality, | hackable program that I've fallen in love with over the years! A | program that I have used for so many hours, but has never crashed | once (neovim does crash, but vim has never done this for me.) | This is an impressive feat given the sheer volume of vim plugins | and configurations I've gone through! | | Thank you Bram! You built an amazing program and the community | around it! | vjust wrote: | thanks Bram. | michaelmrose wrote: | It is nice to see tasteful and profitable disagreement in place | of simple drama. It's a credit to all parties. | tequila_shot wrote: | sorry, what disagreement? I didn't find any in the article. | ampersandy wrote: | The implied disagreement for why neovim exists to provide | functionality that wouldn't have been merged into vim. | BlackjackCF wrote: | Some people take issue with NeoVim, because they believe it | splits the Vim community and takes people power away from Vim | development. | prmoustache wrote: | Some people can't grasp how the world is working. | SpaceManNabs wrote: | > because they believe it splits the Vim community and | takes people power away from Vim development | | I don't understand this point, and I tried to parse it and | still don't. (I understand that you are just relaying it). | | If vim maintainers don't want neovim to exist, they should | have accepted the merges earlier. If they disagree with the | merges (which I think they did), then that power doesn't | belong in Vim anyways. | | edit: this reminds me of this conversation from years ago | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14245705 | | Check DSMan195276's comments. | | And finally before I derail, I want to bring stuff back to | the focus: RIP Braam. | coldtea wrote: | > _I don 't understand this point, and I tried to parse | it and still don't. (...) If vim maintainers don't want | neovim to exist, they should have accepted the merges | earlier. If they disagree with the merges (which I think | they did), then that power doesn't belong in Vim anyways_ | | It's a very simple point to understand: whether the | merges are good or not, the presence of a fork still | "splits the Vim community and takes people power away | from Vim development". | | And if they're bad (which is the way they see it), they | do it for no good reason too. | | That's regardless of people "having the right to fork". | Yes they do. But also yes, if they exercize that right, | they do split a community and divert interest from a | project to 2 projects. | shanusmagnus wrote: | I guess you're right, the logic you describe is simple, | but I submit that there's a more fundamental logic: If | the folks who split away pull people out of the original | community, it means there was demand for the things that | prompted the split in the first place. | | If Neovim had nothing to offer vs vanilla Vim, nobody | would have followed them. This seems like efficient | exploration of an idea space, to me, and something to be | celebrated. | LexiMax wrote: | > That's regardless of people "having the right to fork". | Yes they do. But also yes, if they exercize that right, | they do split a community and divert interest from a | project to 2 projects. | | You're not dividing the same-sized pie. | | The alternative to a fork is a single project with fewer | contributors. | | The alternative to two communities is a single community | that's not as large as the two would've been, with a good | chunk of those remaining having unfulfilled wishes or | unheard complaints. | | The alternative to Vim as it is today is very likely Vim | without a a few of its new features and improvements that | came with Vim 8 and 9. | | Forks are good. | falcolas wrote: | What splits it more, IMO, is that neovim went in a non- | compatible direction with many of their design choices. | They have good arguments for doing so, but it still means | that writing community plugins that can work with either | version of vim is inherently harder. | coldtea wrote: | I guess if they haven't gotten in a non-compatible | direction, then they wouldn't have made enough change to | guarantee a fork. | michaelmrose wrote: | Disagreement insofar as the direction of vim. Neovim choosing | to go there on way on functionality they wanted to implement | both ultimately enriched vim as some ideas found there way | into vim proper and gave the community additional options. | | Such splits aren't always handled well and value is lost when | good ideas aren't merged back because of personal reasons and | when contributors stop contributing because they are turned | off by the drama. See libav vs ffmpeg. | dudus wrote: | Is there any disagreement on who is going to support Vim moving | forward? | | I can see the fork maintainers going into a power struggle if | the future is unclear. Maybe some will even write fluffy pieces | on how much they loved Bram to gather support... | lost_tourist wrote: | Neovim and vim are very independent projects, so this doesn't | really affect neovim all that much. Is that what you're | talking about? | jgb1984 wrote: | Not entirely correct since neovim never stopped merging | upstream patches from vim. So what happens in vim does | influence neovim. | djha-skin wrote: | I'm shocked. I've been a vim user my whole life. I use neovim | lately, but I didn't even know Bram was dead. I've never | interacted with him personally, but I've interacted with the tool | he wrote and the documentation he wrote almost on a daily basis. | Vim is part of me. | | I know the project will likely continue, but I can't help but | thinking: what now? | | It brings up this issue of death in software for me. Software is | getting old enough now that it is starting to outlive its | authors. RIP Anthony Grimes and Ian Murdock. I have used both of | these men's software after their demise[1][2], and I am grateful | for it. | | However, it does make me think. Grimes' software continues to | have issues filed against it[3] by folks unaware that no one is | getting notifications for them. On the other hand, Debian was | popular enough to continue after Ian's passing, and continues to | gain momentum. | | I know it might be too soon for me to wonder about these | questions to an audience. These were the giants on whose | shoulders we continue to work today. I'm glad their code | persists. | | 1: https://github.com/Raynes/fs | | 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Murdock | | 3: https://github.com/Raynes/fs/pulls | deltarholamda wrote: | There is another thread on HN about vim development going | forward, posted on the Google Group for vim development. | Christian Brabandt mentions several issues that will need to be | resolved, e.g. the hosting situation for the site. | | I feel that this would be an ideal thing for one of the various | open source foundations to address. I.e., provide a single- | source hosting environment for open source projects without | needing to lean on for-profit corporations, which would include | some form of hit-by-a-bus solution for those projects that lose | a core (or sole) developer. | | Trying to piece this stuff together after the fact is always a | chore. And no amount of "well, they should have a plan in | place" will help. People don't think they're going to die | tomorrow, so there's always a reason to put it off for later, | so they do. | | I don't think anybody's worried about Linux going poof if Linus | unexpectantly returns to his home planet, but there are plenty | of projects that might have some issues. Having all of the | domains, DNS, hosting, etc. somewhere with a real employee that | can be contacted to move control to new people if required is a | good thing. | nektro wrote: | https://sourcehut.org/ fits this pretty well | graphviz wrote: | What? Project founders and software authors might not always | be around? | metadat wrote: | Bram Moolenaar's passing became public last Saturday: | | _Bram Moolenaar has died_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37011324 (4272 points, 430 | comments) | bilekas wrote: | So often we hear after someone dies how great they really where | when infact they were like most people, a mixed bag. We all have | ups and downs etc. | | There are some though that really do live up to the postmortem | messages and for sure Bram is one of them, i was lucky to meet | him and actually spend some time shooting shit with him. At the | time i didn't realize how big a deal he was, it was only later i | would actually get to know and appreciate VIM, but from all of | that it made me appreciate him a lot more. So when I read these | kind of posts i can't help feel sad of course but I do get | shivers of how damn ossum he really was. The testimonials to him | hit so hard knowing they're 100% genuine. We need more like him, | he will be really missed. | topher200 wrote: | I occasionally ponder on how frustrating it is that the | deceased don't get to hear their eulogies. It would have been | amazing for Bram to have been able to experience all the | outpouring of support and love from people he is interacted | with during his life. Especially in a context where the | speakers aren't considering him as an audience -- they're | sharing their deep and true feelings. | | No one can really be sure how their acquaintances feel about | them. Eulogies are the closest we get. Imagine if he were able | to hear all these great things said about him... It would be | such a joy. | bmiller2 wrote: | Larry David had the same thought, and it was the theme of the | episode "The Covid Hoarder" in Curb Your Enthusiasm wherein | Albert Brooks stages a funeral for his non-deceased self. | dmvdoug wrote: | This is why I always make it a point to tell people how much | I appreciate them and why (when I do, I mean). It can be | awkward at first, but I've developed a good self-deprecation | that lets me excuse myself for being gushy ("I might start | crying; I'm a crier!"), and that disarms people for the most | part. I think it's really important that we let people know | how much we value them and why we honor/respect them when we | do. Because most of us do wander through life in a cloud of | unknowing and uncertainty. | jfax wrote: | That's what birthdays are for. I like to think, anyway. | abraae wrote: | Off topic but your comment makes me think of Nick Drake. He | died at 26, before even knowing he'd achieved anything, his | music barely listened to, probably feeling a failure. | Posthumously he's one of the world's most acclaimed recording | artists. RIP Bram. | block_dagger wrote: | Good example, although Van Gogh is probably the more cited. | halifaxbeard wrote: | "The Doctor and Amy take Vincent Van Gogh - who struggled | to sell a single painting in his own lifetime - to a | Paris art Gallery in the year 2010" | | https://youtu.be/ubTJI_UphPk | mongol wrote: | Another example is Stieg Larsson, author of the Girl with | the dragon tattoo triology. He died before these books | were published. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-08-10 23:00 UTC)