[HN Gopher] Auditory illusions with examples from Daft Punk
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Auditory illusions with examples from Daft Punk
Author : ugurnot
Score : 133 points
Date : 2023-08-12 20:10 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.ugu.rs)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.ugu.rs)
| distantsounds wrote:
| This article is horribly written and executed for many reasons,
| but the primary one being that the vast majority of the music
| credited as Daft Punk is just sampled music from other artists.
| You can eloquently see this broken down here:
| https://youtu.be/lBSWw7RdZLk
|
| At least get the original works correct.
| jonbell wrote:
| TIL the term "brown study"
| monkpit wrote:
| First off, I love Daft Punk and I've heard all of these song
| countless times.
|
| But, sorry, I don't buy it. I am aware of the talking piano
| effect, but even the wiki page [0] says it's a vocoder, which is
| something entirely different.
|
| Similar to other commenters here [1], I don't hear the pattern
| described for the octave effect either.
|
| [0]
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot_Rock_(song)https://en....
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37104083
| MAGZine wrote:
| Switched on Pop dived into Daft Punk[1] and definitely
| identified Daft Punk's robot voices as vocoder. Actually, most
| robot voices are.
|
| [1] https://open.spotify.com/episode/52t5WCspFuFkow374P88wA
| (but also Ep 1 and 3).
| ugurnot wrote:
| It is not the vocoder but the guitar riff that sounds like
| robot rock.
| a-dub wrote:
| my favorite are shepard tones, which literally look like the
| barber pole illusion in a spectrogram.
| beautifulfreak wrote:
| The Brainstorm/Green-Needle auditory illusion is more noticeable:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g88BXUhR2a4
| saghm wrote:
| When my fiancee showed me this, it took me almost a dozen
| watches to finally hear the one I didn't initially hear. I
| don't remember for sure which one I could hear at first, but I
| think I only heard "green needle", which was higher pitched,
| and it took me a lot of concentration to block that out and
| focus on the lower pitch enough to be able to parse out some
| semblance of speech. If my recollection is correct, my troubles
| with the lower pitched sound is a little ironic because I play
| bass and often try to point out bass parts I like to my
| fiancee, but she sometimes has trouble parsing out exactly what
| I'm referring to due to not having had any musical training and
| it not being as obvious to her which part is the bass when I'm
| showing her a song with lots of different guitar and keyboard
| tracks and lots of heavy bass drum.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| Funny about them: I can hear the words _either_ as "Mexican
| lucky" or "to get lucky" (the correct lyrics) depending on what I
| want to hear. Usually, once you know the right words, you can't
| hear anything else.
|
| https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-mexican-lucky-and-w...
| mhh__ wrote:
| "Legend of the penis"
|
| "Rob a Mexican" etc
| bloopernova wrote:
| I've always liked the incorrect lyrics "we're robot Mexican
| monkeys". Not sure who first came up with that. I remember
| reading it on reddit back when the short preview clip of _Get
| Lucky_ was released to great excitement.
| Hamuko wrote:
| The version I saw early was "We'll rub a Mexican monkey".
| p00dles wrote:
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qN1fVkeSUXE
|
| I wonder how many people knew the correct lyrics before this
| commercial, I certainly did not
| hydrok9 wrote:
| "we're up all night to pet puppies"
| stigz wrote:
| In a similar vein, here's an analysis of the illusion in
| Radiohead's Videotape I found interesting.
|
| https://youtu.be/p_IHotHxIl8
| Waterluvian wrote:
| I'll have to figure out which Daft Punk song I'm thinking of, but
| there was this segment where I swear there's this really swingy
| chord progression but when slowed down to study it turns out to
| be the same chord repeated over and over. It's the other voices
| that are progressing.
| mergejoin wrote:
| commenting, in case you figure it out
| MAGZine wrote:
| it sounds like you're referring to Daft Punk's "Giorgio by
| Moroder" from their album "Random Access Memories." The segment
| you're describing involves a repetitive chord progression, but
| the perceived variation comes from the evolving layers and
| elements surrounding the chords. This technique creates a sense
| of progression while maintaining a consistent base.
|
| -- by chatgpt
| adamrezich wrote:
| for the Robot Rock one, the author should've clarified that it's
| not referring to the actual `rock. robot rock` voice part, but
| the part where the guitar chords _sound like that_. skip to about
| 1:50 in the linked video to hear the robot voice, then listen to
| how similar just the guitar chords after 2:00 _sound like_ the
| robot voice saying `rock. robot rock.`
| ugurnot wrote:
| You are right. That part seems a little bit vague, I will
| update it.
| brookritz wrote:
| ...and the author should have clarified that this Daft Punk
| song is copied from a 1980's single:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b0jWlPtP5o
| spondylosaurus wrote:
| Isn't Daft Punk pretty famous for sampling/referencing other
| artists' songs?
| rtuin wrote:
| Yes: https://www.whosampled.com/Daft-Punk/samples/
| rifty wrote:
| Sure, but it's worth mentioning that this isn't just a Daft
| Punk thing. Electronic music and especially House music
| going back to its roots was shaped by sampling great
| moments or vocals of tracks into loops and mixing them
| together into new tracks on top of a 4/4 kick.
|
| The funky/disco/french house era was particularly prolific
| with sampling though.
| veave wrote:
| HN discovers sampling in electronic music.
| glandium wrote:
| Also, in that particular example, I don't think they made the
| guitar emit the voice-sounding sounds, but rather generated it
| electronically. It's not even obvious that the voice comes from
| guitar sounds... it actually sounds like a plain voice with
| effects.
|
| As opposed to, say, Mark Rober's talking piano.
| ilyt wrote:
| This is a better demonstration of octave illusion, I had no clue
| wtf the article meant until I listened to this:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMMsK9rjBWo
|
| But I heard the lower tone in the middle of my head and higher
| tone bouncing from left to right. Not the "low on one side, high
| on the other side" article mentioned.
|
| Kinda interesting to think some people might hear completely
| different thing in same song...
| wantguns wrote:
| i have always felt some unexplained effect while listening to
| Veridis Quo [1]. the melody start sounding different from the
| 0:38 mark, just as the kicks come in. it seems like some
| supporting keys are added with the kicks, to make the sound more
| full, but at the same time it could be my brain getting tricked.
|
| sorry for botching the explanation, i have never studied music.
|
| [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCd6PfxOy0Y
| samstave wrote:
| I have a weird auditory illusion that happens to me ; I have
| tinnitus, and a super weird auditory response thing that happens
| to me occassionally:
|
| So when I cant hear the high-pitched tinnitus squeal (very low
| volume, but still hear it) - there is something weird that
| happens which is that I can "hear" some sort of radio station -
| which plays music in the really faintest and far away sounding
| volume...
|
| The other thing that happens, is that when laying in bed,
| attempting to sleep - there are times that when the house makes a
| "creak" sound of settling or whatever (you know how your wall may
| 'pop' or 'creak' at times - but the weird thing is that it
| simultaneously coincides with a pop and a flinch of my body, or
| 'sound' in my head.
|
| There are times when this happens and I get a bright flash in my
| closed-eyes...
|
| Anyone know what this is? Sodium defficiency? or aliens?
| SpaceNugget wrote:
| I don't hear radio stations, you might want to get your antenna
| checked. But I get the same sounds when I am laying in bed
| before I fall asleep and they also coincide with twitches or
| flinches and sometimes visual flashes.
| jrmg wrote:
| The flash thing sounds like
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia
| Groxx wrote:
| Radio receivers in your head!
| https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/3638/is-it-poss...
|
| Also perhaps most famously: https://www.snopes.com/fact-
| check/lucille-ball-fillings-spie...
| anArbitraryOne wrote:
| Would someone please send him a tweet telling him that you can
| start videos specific timestamps on YouTube by adding "&t=0s"
| where 0 is the desired number of seconds to the URL? I'm not
| making a new Twitter acct just to contact a person who has
| "Contact Follow me at Twitter: @ugu_rs" as the only means of such
| on their blog
| aatd86 wrote:
| One that mix engineers use a lot and that is not mentioned is the
| Haas Effect. (micro delay between left and right channel that
| gives a stereo sensation to a mono source)
| jcims wrote:
| I wonder how many folks that spend thousands of hours in front of
| a synthesizer or making electronic music or beats have identified
| similar illusions but don't really think of it as something
| 'interesting'. Like, 'oh yeah if you do this it kind of sounds
| like that'. Probably a whole catalog of tricks.
| whiddershins wrote:
| Yes
| jnurmine wrote:
| When I was 14 years old, I noticed how pure saw waves make fast
| transient sounds go "whooshy".
|
| 1. Play a pure saw wave sound for several seconds, it has to be
| loud (use headphones), then
|
| 2. hit the keyboard keys, or snap your fingers, or make other
| sounds with fast transients, and the transient is no longer
| snappy, it "whooshes". It's hard to describe but there is like
| a flanging effect on it.
|
| I guess there is some scientific name for this phenomenon, but
| I don't know what.
| v64 wrote:
| Happens all the time. Most common one for me is when you're
| making a patch on a synth and by chance dial in those
| frequencies that align with formants (similar to the Robot Rock
| effect the post mentions).
|
| Yesterday I was working on a bass drum beat, and after adding
| some synths playing on top of it, I started to hear the bass
| drum echo. So, my first thought was I had accidentally enabled
| some kind of reverb or echo effect on it while I was setting up
| the synths. After confirming I hadn't and isolated the track to
| ensure the bass drum was sounding as intended, I chalked it up
| to some weird illusion between the synths and drum that was
| making it sound like an echo. I know it's not there in reality,
| but I can't unhear it.
|
| In this case, I went back and added a little echo to the drum
| to make the effect intentional, which turned out to sound good,
| but sometimes I'll try to make the illusion reality and it
| doesn't have the same effect.
| mergejoin wrote:
| would you mind sending a mp3 of that effect? just curious :)
| metamet wrote:
| I always wonder if it's some odd thing going on in the DAW.
|
| Would you be willing to export that track as two tracks--one
| with drums and one with synth? Then listen to them solo, then
| run them together (with WAV files instead of
| instrumentation)? Would be neat to have that illusion
| confirmed rather than it being a DAW artifact.
| Groxx wrote:
| > _Open the song Aerodynamic and fast-forward to 2:28, start
| listening to the passage. I hear the higher pitch on my right and
| the lower one on my left ear. What about you?_
|
| tbh I'm not sure which notes they're referring to here. There are
| a couple overlapping high/low pairs in that segment, and I'm not
| sure which is the octave/those frequencies.
|
| One seems like higher is more in my left, but it clearly follows
| the left speaker on my headphones. The others warble around for
| me, though I'm pretty strongly right handed.
|
| ---
|
| Even after reading and listening to
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octave_illusion I'm totally lost as
| to what this post or wikipedia are describing. Are people hearing
| like: left ear right ear
| ------------------------- high
| (nothing in right ear) low high
| low
|
| or something else? I mostly hear: left ear
| central right ear
| -------------------------------------- high low
| low low low high high
| low low low low high
|
| I'm definitely hearing "low" while hearing "high" on the opposite
| ear, though it feels like there's a basically constant central
| "low" as well. The high tone clearly moves between sides.
|
| Maybe worth mentioning: I've had a hearing test in the past year
| and I'm essentially completely balanced, so there likely isn't a
| tone-deafness issue on one side that could cause a reception
| imbalance. Could the illusion just be hearing damage? And then
| handedness just follows which ear takes more damage due to more
| noisy things happening / less protection on that side? That could
| also explain why left-handed people are less strongly sided, as
| they're forced to do things more balanced due to right-hand-only
| stuff existing.
| gabereiser wrote:
| people are hearing what you hear. It's the simultaneous tones,
| one low, one high, low in the left, high in the right. It's not
| that it's panning (one at a time), it's together (or within ms
| of each other when mixed with other techniques). Once you
| understand this, then the concept of just flipping it makes
| even more sense. Then get creative and flippity floppity the
| high/low left/right dance.
| Groxx wrote:
| That's what the sounds are actually doing though, so what
| would the illusion be?
| gabereiser wrote:
| the illusion is it's perceived as the "same" note/tone.
| It's not, and when you dig, you can tell it's not, but when
| you're casually listening, your brain here's a "fuller"
| note for some reason. The "fuller" comes from the two
| octaves being played simultaneously in your seperate ear
| holes.
|
| Like sleight-of-hand, you know it's there but you can't
| quite discern it at the time and are gladly surprised by it
| but you know it's not real magic.
| Groxx wrote:
| This sounds like it might be conflating stuff like
| vibrato (fast variation in pitch) or even faster. The
| illusion in the song and on the Wikipedia page involves
| changing the tone only _four times per second_ , there's
| no claims at all about both tones blending together.
| ilyt wrote:
| I don't hear that. I hear constant low tone in both ears with
| only high one bouncing around (i.e the ear where high is is
| perceiving low one even if it is not there)
| Groxx wrote:
| * * *
| gizajob wrote:
| It's the Shepard tone effect running in the background of the
| actual notes, which produce a mild illusion that they're
| ascending when they're not, but nevertheless they're moving up
| and then down in pitches so it's not a brilliant example. I
| think the author is a little confused in this short essay about
| a few things. His "talking piano" effect is just standard
| vocoding, which has made me think this is all fairly new to him
| and he's not an expert.
|
| _THIS_ is a talking piano: https://youtu.be/muCPjK4nGY4
| ugurnot wrote:
| The tone I'm referring to is the alternation between F#3 and
| F#4. I think your observation about the Shepard tone is
| valid. For the talking piano effect, I remember trying to
| play it on guitar to make it sound like "Robot Rock". I
| suspect this is in relation to Tethard's example of
| accentuation by spectral contrast, but that was a long shot
| to include.
|
| Well, the audio area is full of masters and experts. I make
| no claim to be an expert, so you can ignore this writing as
| you prefer.
| suction wrote:
| [dead]
| suction wrote:
| [dead]
| ilyt wrote:
| Same for me, just hearing the high tone bouncing around
|
| Here is better video for that illusion:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMMsK9rjBWo
|
| I've heard of an effect where brain synthesises lower tone from
| the higher harmonics, might that be reason why I hear the low
| tone in both ears at once?
| sublinear wrote:
| https://youtu.be/1oD2DWf4CjQ
|
| Com Truise - Fairlight
|
| I wouldn't call this an illusion as much as an interesting
| effect. Put on a good pair of headphones and listen to the intro
| at moderately high volume. There's a buzzing note in there that
| seems to resonate in a way that feels like it's coming from
| inside your head or maybe even your throat.
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