[HN Gopher] Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation ___________________________________________________________________ Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation Author : acallaghan Score : 200 points Date : 2023-08-23 10:37 UTC (12 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com) | [deleted] | dghughes wrote: | Years ago I read that breathing on your vagus nerve on your wrist | can help calm you down. Each breath pulse would do something | cause stimulation to calm you more like a feedback loop. I didn't | know if it was bunk or not. I tried it but never felt any effect. | robg wrote: | The automatic feedback loop between heart and lungs is really | cool. The more you slow your breathing the more you slow your | heart. You are choosing to breathe slower via your vagus nerve. | The heart responds accordingly. | | By contrast the adrenal cortex, a little brain on top of the | kidneys, automatically triggers fight or flight with threat | detection. By the time you realize it your heart rate is already | increasing. Breathing slowly, preferably through your nose, | counteracts that physiological stress. | | See also the last 100 years of research on the autonomic nervous | system. | theshrike79 wrote: | I have acid reflux and possibly a mild hiatal hernia. When it | triggers in Just The Right Way, I also get severe panic attack | symptoms. | | When I started investigating it (my coping mechanism during panic | attacks) I discovered that the vagus nerve travels next to the | esophagus through the diaphragm. | | So my complete layman explanation was that the stomach pushes | through the diaphragm during a hiatal hernia -> it rubs against | the vagus nerve -> panic attack symptoms. | | I might need to add the study of vagus nerve to "why haven't we | studied this about the human body more" -list along with gut | bacteria composition. | kyleyeats wrote: | I'm not a doctor or anything but you're describing gallstones | and gallbladder attacks here. Regular panic attacks will reveal | an emotional pattern. Gallbladder attacks usually happen after | you eat a big, high-fat meal and won't have an associated | emotional trigger. | | It'll feel like a Tai Chi master is doing the Two Finger Death | Touch on the right side of your diaphragm, but aside from that | feels just like a panic attack. | jamal-kumar wrote: | Wait until you hear about the research trying to find out if | there's a connection between signalling molecules that bacteria | release that affect the vagus nerve directly stimulating the | brain to eat more junk food [1] | | [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9102524/ | CobaltFire wrote: | I've had recurring issues exactly like that for years. You have | just given me something to look for (hiatal hernia) as that | matches my symptoms. | | Thanks! | theshrike79 wrote: | I'm pretty sure I had a semi-severe case of hiatal hernia, | but when the doctor shoved a camera down my throat to check, | he actually fixed it by accidentally pushing the hernia down | :D | | Most of my worst symptoms went away after the checkup, but it | took a LONG while for my digestive tract to fully heal. I | couldn't burp at all for ... maybe two years, the pressure | just stayed in my stomach. Drinking small amounts of fizzy | drinks and rising on my toes + slamming my heels down got the | air out sometimes. | | There are still things I can't eat because they instantly | irritate my reflux, buttery pastries being the worst ones. | CobaltFire wrote: | It's interesting you say that, because since I had a camera | shoved down my throat two years ago I haven't had symptoms | until last week (I was ~35km into a 40km bike ride and it | was a VERY sudden onset during a climb). | | I'll talk to my GP this week when I see him. | albntomat0 wrote: | I'm in a very similar situation as you with EoE, acid reflux, | and a confirmed mild hiatal hernia. The anxiety seems to line | up as well. | | Have you found any additional solutions, past the standard PPI | and diet for acid reflux? | | Thanks! | theshrike79 wrote: | Diet mostly, I dropped most added sugars, wheat and drip | coffee (french press and cold press are fine for some reason) | along with broccoli (random, right?) and industrial breads | (something in the rising agents -\\_(tsu)_/- ) and I'm | currently mostly fine. | | Large amounts of red meat is bad, because it just doesn't | digest properly, I might burp in the evening and still taste | my lunch sausage... | | Metamizole is the only one that helps in the extreme cases | (panic attacks), but luckily I don't get those anymore. I | think I've had to take a single pill twice in the last 5 | years. It's pretty much exactly 15 minutes from swallowing | the pill and then all symptoms go away because it forces my | diaphragm to relax and thus drop pressure to the vagus nerve. | blue_dragon wrote: | Hijacking your comment to share my story and ask for advice. | | I have diagnosed EoE, I've had it for my whole life. I'm | currently on 80mg omeprazole daily and an elimination diet. | This helps a lot but is not a cure. I've also experienced | benign heart palpitations for my whole life (confirmed by a | cardiologist). For a long time, I've had a hunch that the two | were connected. | | On days when I have EoE flare-ups, I feel some pain and | swelling in my esophagus, as though I have a bad chest cold. | Food and liquids tend to linger in my esophagus for longer. | Another unusual side effect is that, on days when my EoE | flares up, I tend to experience frequent heart palpitations, | most commonly right after consuming food or water. | | Since the vagus nerve travels through the chest, adjacent to | both the heart and the esophagus, I think the mechanism of | action is this: the inflammation in my esophagus stimulates | the vagus nerve, making a palpitation more likely. This | inflammation also causes food and liquid to travel through | the esophagus more slowly, which stimulates the vagus nerve | further. The combined stimulus from inflammation and food or | liquid can irritate the vagus nerve enough to cause heart | palpitations. | | Obviously I would like to cure both my EoE and palpitations, | as they're currently the two biggest detriments to my quality | of life. And inflammation due to an overactive immune system | is the cause of EoE. So the possibility of reducing immune | system inflammation just by stimulating the vagus nerve is | very appealing to me. | | If anyone reading this has an experience, opinion, research, | suggestion, or anything they'd like to share, I'd love to | hear it. I'm going to experiment with baking soda and | famotidine to reduce inflammation, since I read in the above | threads that either of those could work. But if there's some | simple hack I can employ to reduce my symptoms | (meditation/breathing technique, physical exercise, a | stimulation device I can buy, some additional OTC medication | I can take, etc), I love to hear it. | cachecrab wrote: | I haven't been diagnosed with EoE (and don't think I have | it) but I do think there is a connection between heart | palpitations and the digestive system. I have SIBO and will | sometimes get them from the trapped gas. | | Some would consider this as Roemheld syndrome, which isn't | an official diagnosis but I see it as more of an | explanation that your digestive system can cause these | symptoms, rather than there being a problem with your | heart. | | I don't have any thing else to offer you as I'm not as | familiar with EoE but you could look through the related | subreddit to see if others have suggestions. Wishing you | the best! | MPSimmons wrote: | Yeah, I've had this too. I've also noticed that digestion in my | large intestine triggers panic attack symptoms sometimes. | jinder wrote: | Famotidine an old school H2 antihistamine used for acid reflux | (pre PPIs), was found to have an additional mechanism of action | via activation of the vagus nerve to inhibit pro-inflammatory | cytokines in covid (via alpha 7 nicotinic acetylcholine | receptor (a7nAChR) signal transduction - https://molmed.biomedc | entral.com/articles/10.1186/s10020-022...). | | It has also been used quite extensively to combat post-covid | neuropsychiatric symptoms. | | I think the link here is that increased LPS/endotoxin | production by your microbiota can induce acid reflux, cause | neuroinflammation and psychiatric symptoms. Low acid production | itself can result in a more inflammatory microbiome further | exacerbating the problem. Long term fix would be working on the | migrating motor complex, improve motility/gastric emptying and | rebalance the microbiome by reducing gram-negative | bacteria/pathobionts and increasing butyrate production via | selective feeding. [I'm not a doctor, this is just the | direction I've been working on things myself] | InSteady wrote: | That's interesting about famotidine. This is also a treatment | for MCAS, which is probably under-diagnosed because it's kind | of obscure and the diagnostic criteria kind of suck | currently. It can reduce stomach acid, so my doctor and I | decided against using it as the first option in treatment, | but may reconsider even though the alternative seems to be | working. Thanks for the link and explanation. | | Can you share any relevant resources or ideas you've gotten | on reducing the opportunists and increasing butyrate | production? I've coaxed and cajoled my MMC and other | digestive processes back into shape, or so it seems, but am | struggling on the microbiome angle. It's tricky because the | list of foods that trigger symptoms is insanely long, so it's | hard to get creative and experimental as far as that goes. | jinder wrote: | Some people really do have mast cell issues, but everyone | and their dog thinks they have MCAS these days and it's | questionable in my opinion. Often a diagnosis will be based | on whether any of the MCAS-drugs work (rather than testing | which is very problematic for MCAS). But as you see in the | linked paper famotidine was effective in mice genetically | engineered without mast cells, so at least in that instance | it's not a mast cell issue. | | The tricky thing with increasing butyrate production is | that everyone's gut dysbiosis is different - and therefore, | a prebiotic that works for one person may make someone | else's condition worse. For example, I have big blooms in | my Prevotella Copri population which would consume Inulin | and make my butyrate production worse - but in people | without a Prevotella Copri overgrowth, Inulin would improve | their butyrate production. | | I would look into 16S microbiome testing (I use Biomesight) | and use that as a guide, as well as slowly trialing | interventions and monitoring symptoms. None of this is | perfect and you kinda have to be on the bleeding edge of | science/alternative medicine to figure things out. | cachecrab wrote: | Look into PHGG for increasing butyrate production | | https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S17564646 | 2... | theshrike79 wrote: | One thing that really helped me was just going to the gym. | Basically strengthening my core improved my posture so that | my esophagus isn't as crooked due to shitty posture. | davzie wrote: | I spent 6 years trying everything to solve reflux. I am a | relatively fit 35 year old. I tried antacids, PPIs, H2 blockers | and these just exacerbated the issue over time. | | Eventually after much reading I read that without _enough_ | stomach acid, food backs up and causes reflux. It also causes | the LES to not close properly. So I started taking Betain HCL | and Digestive Enzymes (Solgar ones) before I eat and I can 't | tell you what a difference it's made. It's so amazing. I get 0 | symptoms and I also feel so much better generally. | | I honestly encourage you to try this. The medication for this | stuff just has it the totally wrong way around. I can't believe | this stuff is given out as one of the most commonly prescribed | drugs in the UK at least. | jconley wrote: | I'll have to try this! I have reflux or heartburn daily if I | don't do things right. A few things help me. | | 1) Don't have an empty stomach. My stomach goes crazy. 2) | Don't overeat. Large portions cause it nearly every time. 3) | Don't eat anything within 2 hours of bed time. | | So, basically, if I eat small meals often I am usually fine. | And then there are trigger foods like too much coffee and | alcohol and red sauces, and garlic and other things that | cause indigestion. | davzie wrote: | I promise you, I had all this. If you try these supplements | I mentioned you will never think about it again. The | downside is you end up putting on some weight whilst you | get over the fun of being able to eat whatever you want | again :) | [deleted] | theshrike79 wrote: | I have a vague recollection that I was tested well over a | decade ago and the result was that I have really mild stomach | acid and/or not enough of it. | | Basically if I eat stuff that digests slowly (fats and red | meat), it takes my stomach a LONG time to actually break it | down and move it forward. If I shove more stuff in there | before it's done -> bad time. | | I lost over 10kg during the worst episodes in about 9 months, | I lived pretty much on rooibos tea (even green tea irritated | my reflux), white rice and mildly flavored chicken. | davzie wrote: | Sounds really awful. Sorry to hear that! I wonder if this | would have happened many years ago before modern | agriculture and all the awful stuff that is present in our | foods. I wonder if our environments are causing this lack | of stomach acid / enzymes in people. This can't surely have | been happening when we were hunter / gatherers! | theshrike79 wrote: | There are theories about how our modern wheat for example | is vastly different from what it was 50+ years ago, | something in the structure has changed so that there's | "more" wheat, but it's just fluff - all the good stuff | has been modified out to get the maximum weight of wheat | at the cost of quality. | gottorf wrote: | > This can't surely have been happening when we were | hunter / gatherers! | | Or it did, and those people died and we no longer have | any record of them. That's entirely possible, I suppose. | davzie wrote: | That implies might be a genetic disposition which would | also imply anyone suffering today maybe shouldn't be here | if that mutation died out. I dunno, I'm a software | engineer not a geneticist but I just enjoy the thought | experiment | amatecha wrote: | I know this sounds like a hack, but did you ever try taking | some apple cider vinegar in water after eating? It's a | lifesaver for me, near-instant cure for lack of stomach acid. | Has to be the ACV "with mother", the cloudy stuff in it. | Maybe no longer relevant if you're already taking Betain HCL | (I thought that was a medication at first lol), but I | definitely have to mention it in case you may have a natural | medication-free alternative available that you may not have | tried. Don't take my word for it or anything though, def read | up on it if you're interested about it! | davzie wrote: | Yeah it's the same mechanism ! The ACC stimulates the | stomach to produce loads of acid and enzymes which it is | lacking. The supplements I use are basically the same | except the enzymes themselves are provided in the form of | the digestive enzyme tablets and the Betail HCL with Pepsin | is what stimulates the acid production! | | Very glad it's working for you :) | zigzaggy wrote: | Not GP but I also have severe reflux - I've had it years. | It's been really bad lately. | | In related information I've found that fortified yogurt helps | not only my reflux but also improves my mood. But it never | seemed to be enough to actually solve the reflux problem. | | Just ordered the supplements. Truly hope this solves the | problem. | | Whoa I just realized that I have a hiatal hernia too. I | didn't realize that's what that was. I hope this is a day of | solutions! | davzie wrote: | I'd love to hear if this does solve it for you ! Feel free | to reply on here or on my contact page : | https://davidt.co.uk | BSEdlMMldESB wrote: | [flagged] | wruza wrote: | What a strange agitation in your comment. | | Melanin absorbtion spectrum is easy to search for and the data | shows that its interaction with EM spectrum below UV and | visible light (freq-wise) is basically zero. | | Radio frequencies at "home" energies don't interact with us, so | you can take the tinfoil hat off ;). Things change when you | stand right in front of an industrial microwave antenna, but | only there and that has nothing to do with pigments. | BSEdlMMldESB wrote: | [] | RankingMember wrote: | You're getting downvoted because what you're saying doesn't | make any logical sense, not because of any "taboos". | tempaway43355 wrote: | Your question makes no sense in the context of epilepsy. I | genuinely have no idea what you are talking about | jwestbury wrote: | Nerve stimulation implants are really exciting. I have sleep | apnea, and while I take to CPAP therapy pretty well, I hate | having to travel with the device and I hate its limitations. When | we travel, I have to ensure there's an outlet somewhere near my | bed; I can't camp without a massive battery pack for my CPAP; I | can't go backpacking; and even cuddling my wife at night is a | challenge because of the hose hanging off my head. | | There's now a sleep apnea implant available, which also functions | based on nerve stimulation, and is apparently quite effective. | It's still a bit large, so not ideal for those of us who _can_ | deal with a CPAP, but in another 10 years maybe I can stop using | my CPAP and just get a relatively straightforward surgical | procedure every 5-10 years. I 'd absolutely do it. | Bloating wrote: | Check eBay for medistrom batteries. I can get 1 night for | AirSense 10 (w/o humidity); 2 nights using resmed portable cpap | & no issues backpacking with the portable cpap so long as I can | get a periodic recharge. | tibbydudeza wrote: | Also using CPAP and cuddling is a big problem for me as well. I | have to sleep facing the opposite direction because the | venthole in the nasal mask I can tolerate (F&P Eson 2) blows on | her face. | jwestbury wrote: | I use a Resmed P30i, which I find really comfortable, but if | either of the tubes on the side of my head get compressed, it | gets noiser, or if the vent at the top of the head is too | close to a surface, which means I now sleep in pretty | specific positions to avoid disturbing my wife. | | Still, better than keeping her up with my incessant snoring, | I guess. | Jamesdorsey wrote: | [flagged] | thenerdhead wrote: | You don't need to buy a $750 USD device to do this either. You | can get away with a very cheap TENS device that has ear clips | such as: | | https://www.tenspros.com/intensity-micro-combo-tens-microcur... | | And then look at a study like | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7199464/table/T... | to determine what settings to use for your condition. | QuantumGood wrote: | Easier to read version of the study summaries: | | https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ibnJr6MqhHfpkXXzsKOD... | BizarroLand wrote: | Part of me is interested, part of me is horrified by the idea | of DIY electroshock therapy. | thenerdhead wrote: | What exactly is DIY here? TENS devices are FDA approved and | these are well known settings / protocols for different | conditions. | samjohnation111 wrote: | [flagged] | crtxcr wrote: | >Further research revealed that the brain communicates with the | spleen - an organ that plays a critical role in the immune system | - by sending electrical signals down the vagus nerve. These | trigger the release of a chemical called acetylcholine that tells | immune cells to switch off inflammation. Electrically stimulating | the vagus nerve with an implanted device achieved the same feat. | | One might also achieve comparable effects by drinking baking | soda. | | >"We think the cholinergic (acetylcholine) signals that we know | mediate this anti-inflammatory response aren't coming directly | from the vagal nerve innervating the spleen, but from the | mesothelial cells that form these connections to the spleen," | O'Connor says. | | >While there is no known direct connection between the vagal | nerve and the spleen -- and O'Connor and his team looked again | for one -- the treatment also attenuates inflammation and disease | severity in rheumatoid arthritis, researchers at the Feinstein | Institute for Medical Research reported in 2016 in the journal | Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. | | O'Connor hopes drinking baking soda can one day produce similar | results for people with autoimmune disease. | | https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/04/180425093745.h... | miek wrote: | Wow the baking soda thing is really interesting! You should add | as a submission on HN. Thanks for sharing :) | [deleted] | caycep wrote: | Vagus nerve shenanigans always remind me of that whole NSA hack | of side loading their custom hackey OS into things like embedded | USB controllers or other little things on laptops that we never | think about. Yea, it's not as flashy as interfacing w/ the | CPU/system RAM directly but it could be useful.... | bjourne wrote: | My dad has had deep brain stimulation ( _not_ the same as vagnus | nerve stimulation, but in the same area) for over ten years. It | helps a lot with his dystonia but he has developed severe | paranoia which gets progressively worse. Of course you can 't say | that one caused the other, but I think it is reasonable to be | cautious about devices that put electricity in your brain. | Benefits are often instant side-effects may slowly accumulate | over the years. | jasonladuke0311 wrote: | Vagus nerve trauma is how liver shot KO's happen in striking | arts. I always wondered how this worked. | https://middleeasy.com/guides/dissecting-the-liver-shot/ | jmount wrote: | I thought all the Hacker News "smarter than everyone else, self | prescribers" were still endorsing Adderall, mild hallucinogens, | and poop-swapping. But, by all means, shine on you crazy | diamonds. | InSteady wrote: | Is your comment intended to mock people who are interested in | the vagus nerve, people who are interested in self-advocacy in | the case of health problems, or just everyone on hacker news in | general? Gotta specify, I'm not sure who I'm supposed to be | looking down on here. | fruit2020 wrote: | Does anyone here suffer from vasovagal syncope and has researched | the topic more in depth? My last blackout was around one minute | during a flight, house doctor says I shouldn't be concerned. | dentalperson wrote: | There is also 10+ years research for tinnitus using Vagus Nerve | Stimulation to stop it [1]. Results seem mixed. Many other | drugs/neuro-stimuli for T have gotten mixed results and passed | clinical trials such as Leniere only to flop in actual usage. | It's interesting that the community anecdotal evidence such as | r/tinnitus and TinnitusTalk are so useful for these cases because | they are more likely to report negative results at the post- | approval stage. | | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7951891/ | gizajob wrote: | I've got tinnitus and can't really foresee any kind of | solution. Not sure what the vagus nerve would do given the ears | go straight in to the brain. Hopefully one day though, I've | learned to live with it for the time being. | | eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee... | blueyes wrote: | For me, the amazing thing about the Vagus nerve is that you can | stimulate it with your breathing. And since the Vagus nerve | affects the autonomic nervous system (involuntary, not | consciously controlled) while breathing choices are conscious, | this is one of the few ways that humans can directly impact | important aspects of their psychology and physiology, like how | calm they feel. Mindfulness + breath choices + vagus nerve => | altered state. And that's why traditions including yoga and | buddhism empathize breathing. Couple great books that touch on | this are: | | Breath: The New Science of a Lost Art | https://www.amazon.com/Breath-New-Science-Lost-Art/dp/073521... | | and | | Altered Traits: Science Reveals How Meditation Changes Your Brain | https://www.amazon.com/Altered-Traits-Science-Reveals-Medita... | buildsjets wrote: | A modern classic would be Holotropic Breathwork, developed by | Stanislav Grof after the LSD based therapies he had been | developing in the 1970s were made illegal. Yes, it sounds like | hippie silliness. But it does have notable effects. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Grof | | https://www.amazon.com/Holotropic-Breathwork-Self-Exploratio... | adriand wrote: | This might go beyond how you feel and into direct biological | impacts. I don't listen to the Huberman Lab podcast much these | days but I did listen to the episode with David Linden, which I | found quite interesting. [1] At one point, they are discussing | the mind/body axis and the latest scientific developments in | exploring how mental states can affect the body. There is a | fascinating although very untested - but, testable - hypothesis | that meditation may be able to slow the growth of cancerous | tumours. The mechanism here is via nerve endings that reach the | tumour and their effect on immune responses at the site. | | Linden was emphatic about how science requires a mechanism of | action, and that when people refer to this potential effect | against cancer as due to "alignment of chakras" or whatever, it | is "bullshit" to use his word. | | I get where he's coming from, but on the flip side, the | benefits of meditative practice were arrived at long before | science took any note of them. In fact for many years, the | scientific perspective on it was that it was entirely bullshit. | Meanwhile the people who were (admittedly incorrectly) talking | about chakras were delivering real benefits to their followers. | As such it seems to me that more respect is warranted, and | perhaps even more caution. What do you think? | | 1 https://hubermanlab.com/dr-david-linden-life-death-and- | the-n... | digging wrote: | Haven't listened, but I think I understand where Linden was | coming from, even if it's unnecessarily harsh. The idea that | "you can breathe this way and get this effect" can be true | and can come from folk wisdom, but they ascribe wrong | reasoning to it which makes it mysticism. The reasoning is | what's "bullshit". It's like saying "I tie my shoes tight | every morning to honor the shoe gods or else they'll untie my | laces." Well actually, you're right to tie your laces tight, | but only because that's how laces work on a physical level. | | The chakras thing, or any other mystical model, is only a | low-resolution model. It's useful to point you to a correct | belief, but we have to be careful not to get too invested in | wrong reasoning. Or else you end up with a system of beliefs | which may be mostly wrong - ie, "If my X chakra does this for | me, I am sure my Y chakra does that for me," - when what you | may be looking for is a completely different phenomenon. | xgb84j wrote: | I think these eastern concepts (e.g. meditation concepts such | as chakras, "organs" in traditional chinese medicine) are not | meant as objective truths, but rather as useful mental | models. Different mental models used in the same culture | often contradict one another, which only makes sense if you | don't see them as ultimate truth. | pegasus wrote: | Well put. | TriNetra wrote: | Chakras are real so as Kundalini [0]. However, these aren't | physical in nature, rather, they are on subtle body of | consciousness. Now, that's not possible to prove | scientifically yet, but with your dedicated regular practice, | you can experience them yourself as this guy on HN did [1] | which inspired me to start my own exploration (back in 2014) | and have intense experiences which remains with me. | | 0: https://www.amazon.in/Kundalini-untold-story-Om- | Swami/dp/818... 1: | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6910041 | georgeburdell wrote: | [flagged] | gourabmi wrote: | Just because it isn't published in a journal with latin1 | characters doesn't mean it isn't true | jvanderbot wrote: | > Now, that's not possible to prove scientifically yet | | It may be that there is something to the idea that there | are ways of stimulating certain parts of the body that | can produce something like vagus nerve effects, but | asserting it's true by the name given in an ancient | mythology is a great way to derail any conversation. | Enginerrrd wrote: | There's definitely something to chakras. They were always | my go to example of a thing to make fun of for being | utterly absurd, without substance and based on something | deeply unscientific. | | Then, after several months of intense meditation I | started getting strong somatosensory perception in areas | of my body traditionally associated with chakras, and | Kundalini awakenings and the like. Terms I only picked up | on after researching what might be happening. | | In short, it strongly appears that if you take a group of | people and have them perform certain practices for an | extended period of time, you will create a relatively | consistent cluster of symptoms. | | Eastern mythology/religions have their own language to | describe these phenomenona, and the alleged mechanisms | are obviously ridiculous, but there is nevertheless | something oddly consistent about reported experiences. | | Thus, I think it's pretty sound to conclude that there is | something "real" going on, creating a relatively | consistent pattern of somatosensory experiences. The | mechanism is almost certainly explainable by neuroscience | but has received little serious exploration due to its | purported mechanism and religious background. | lovvtide wrote: | > Linden was emphatic about how science requires a mechanism | of action | | I don't think this is correct. Science is based on | empiricism. Of course we'd like to understand the mechanism | of action, but it's not strictly required for scientific | description of some aspect of reality. For example, Kepler's | laws were derived from the observed paths of the planets -- | it was only later that these same laws could be explained | with recourse to the theory of gravity. | redavni wrote: | Yeah, he likely meant "Nature" requires a mechanism of | action. | lovvtide wrote: | Even if that is what he meant, I still don't think it's | correct. | | To speak of a "mechanism of action" is necessarily to | speak about a model of Nature that you, an observer, have | created. | | Natural phenomena exist empirically and logically prior | to any such model, thus is is metaphysically redundant to | say that Nature as such requires a mechanism of action. | BizarroLand wrote: | Just by box breathing you can willfully lower your blood | pressure and heart rate a good percentage (low double digits) | with only a little practice. | rgrieselhuber wrote: | I first learned about it when studying martial arts, years | later science is just starting to realize how important it is. | bgribble wrote: | I have this dream scenario where they discover that the gentle | swirling of a cotton swab in the ear canal stimulates the vagus | nerve and has these tremendous health benefits, allowing the | sanctimonious anti-cotton-swab-in-the-ear brigade to sit down and | shut up for a minute. | obelos wrote: | Make those anti-eargasm prudes take a back seat for a while! | oidar wrote: | Arnold's nerve cough reflex: evidence for chronic cough as a | sensory vagal neuropathy | | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4222929/ | [deleted] | fidotron wrote: | What made me start paying attention to the vagus nerve noise was | this: | https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/08/200806092437.h... | | This claims to improve language learning through selective non | invasive stimulation. | | The great confusion with these things is given how the body has a | tendency to recalibrate dynamically to new stable levels of | stimulation the trick would be finding what sort of on/off | routine is needed to create the desired effect. | voisin wrote: | > Further research revealed that the brain communicates with the | spleen - an organ that plays a critical role in the immune system | - by sending electrical signals down the vagus nerve. These | trigger the release of a chemical called acetylcholine that tells | immune cells to switch off inflammation. | | Isn't inflammation an important process for healing? Too much is | obviously bad, but if we go turning it off, won't that lead to | longer term issues? | | Shouldn't we be looking to solve what's causing the inflammation | in the first place? | theobromananda wrote: | Not an answer to your question but a comment toward the quote: | | In Traditional Chinese Medicine terms, the spleen has always | been described as the cause of chronic inflammatory disease. | "Spleen deficiency" the core feature of ulcerative colitis and | arthritis f.e. | jeroenhd wrote: | > Shouldn't we be looking to solve what's causing the | inflammation in the first place? | | I agree with that theory, but so far we haven't been able to | figure out what really causes many auto immune diseases or how | to heal them. The current treatment methods involve nasty drugs | that turn off parts of your immune system entirely, but also | have various other side effects. | | If we can adjust the inflammation threshold, we can fix the | symptoms while we're looking to solve the underlying problem. | Fixing chronic inflammation will probably take a few decades at | least, until then I see no reason why we wouldn't treat the | symptoms better, especially if it can be done with cheap and | relatively non-invasive devices. | mindsuck wrote: | I'm not a doctor so I won't pretend I understand how these | treatments work but: | | > Tracey immediately recognised the therapeutic implications, | having spent years trying to develop better treatments for | inflammatory conditions such as sepsis, arthritis and Crohn's | disease. Existing drugs dampen inflammation, but carry a risk | of serious side effects. Here was a technique with the | potential to switch off inflammation without the need for | drugs. | | I don't think anyone wants to switch off inflammation for | everyone, all the time or as treatment for everything, but | there's treatments where it's desired. | sidewndr46 wrote: | sepsis isn't an "inflammatory condition". It's a death | sentence if it isn't dealt with promptly. Lumping that in | with arthritis renders this meaningless. | InSteady wrote: | Sepsis occurs when inflammations goes from being localized | to being spread throughout your entire body. The bacterial | infection is obviously the root of the problem, but it's | the inflammation that actually kills. Being able to turn | off that severe systemic inflammation might buy doctors | precious hours or even days to successfully treat the | infection before the patient's critical organ system shut | down for good. | | As laypeople, should probably take a beat before saying | statements made by experts and medical researchers are | "meaningless." | | From google: | | >Sepsis is a highly inflammatory disorder with the presence | of organ dysfunction in severe cases and mostly caused by | bacterial infection (Bone et al., 1989). | hombre_fatal wrote: | All sorts of medications inhibit inflammation because the body | often goes apeshit and the "cure" becomes worse than the | disease. | | Having more control over it with simpler interventions would be | a good thing. | harvie wrote: | So you are basicaly telling me than scientists found out that i | can get some more alertness by slaping myself in the face? | yamrzou wrote: | The vagus nerve can also be stimulated by diaphragmatic breathing | exercises and longer exhalations, see [1] and [2]. | | [1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/the-athletes- | way/2... | | [2] https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/the-athletes- | way/2.... | jossclimb wrote: | I feel down this rabbit hole after reading Breath by James | Nestor. Got serious about practising 5.5 second inhales / | exhales and started forcing myself to adjust to nose breathing | (even during exercise) | | It did a total number on my anxiety levels and pulled me out of | the constant cortisol fuelled fight or flight mode I found | myself as I slowly crashed and burned into the ground | | I wish someone had taught me as a child, it would have made a | marked difference on my life, I am sure of it. | baby wrote: | Post the technique here so lazy people like me can read about | it! | broguinn wrote: | I read the same book, and while it did help me in several | respects (nasal breathing, mandibular and maxillar | expansion via an orthodontic device, mouth taping), I only | used its box breathing techniques under acute stress. It | wasn't until I read a chapter in Peter Attia's Outlive | about breathing techniques that I started changing my | breathing in a way that, for me, feels like it's actively | stimulating the vagus nerve. Here's how it works. | | You want to breathe to expand your entire diaphragm, | breathing into your upper and lower chest. One way to do | this is to breathe through your nose slowly enough that you | can't hear the sound of your own breathing. | | To get a hang of it, lay on your back on a flat surface, | place a hand on your stomach and a hand on your chest, and | breathe in slowly. You should feel your stomach and chest | rise evenly, neither too much in the stomach, nor too much | in the chest. | | Once you understand this feeling, you can practice it | throughout your day. You feel your whole diaphragm expand, | feeling the tension through your chest, stomach, and even | expanding into your lower back. Anyways, that's how it's | described in the book. I can say that since starting this | breathing technique, I've felt a lot calmer. Best of luck, | check the book out if you'd like a far more detailed and | accurate explanation than mine. | eep_social wrote: | > 5.5 second inhales / exhales | | > nose breathing | | They did! Breathe in and out through your nose, spending | 5.5 seconds each on inhale and exhale. This leads to taking | the "optimal" 5.5 breaths per minute. Try to do this all | the time but don't experiment with new techniques when | you're driving a car or operating heavy machinery. | | The book talks about all kinds of other stuff too but | that's the tl;dr. | QuantumGood wrote: | Highlighted in the book: | | Nasal Breathing: Inhaling and exhaling through the nose to | filter and humidify the air, increase oxygen uptake, and | engage in diaphragmatic breathing. | | Tummo Breathing: A Tibetan practice combining visualization | and breath control, involving deep inhalations and | exhalations to generate body heat. | | Holotropic Breathwork: Rapid and deep breaths, usually | accompanied by music, to achieve altered states of | consciousness. | | Buteyko Method: Focuses on shallow and reduced breathing to | increase CO2 levels, promoting relaxation and better oxygen | uptake. | | Box Breathing: Inhaling, holding the breath, exhaling, and | holding the breath again, all for an equal count, to calm | the mind and increase focus. | | Pranayama: Various yogic breathing techniques to control | breath and energy, aiming to balance the body and mind. | | Pursed Lip Breathing: Inhaling through the nose and | exhaling slowly through pursed lips to improve lung | function and control. | | Sudarshan Kriya: A rhythmic breathing technique used in | conjunction with meditation to reduce stress. | | I teach a simplified breathing method for actors called | "Flash Breathing" that teaches a series of breaths starting | at the speed of gasping, ending at the speed of slow, deep | breathing, and concentrating on the "space" between | exhaling and inhaling. Very effective. | talldrinkofwhat wrote: | I think they're talking about box | breathing:https://www.healthline.com/health/box-breathing | | 4s:Full breath in | | 4s:Hold | | 4s:Full breath out | | 4s:Hold* | | *this one seems the least natural to me as you're just | sitting there, at the bottom of an invisible pool, wasting | away. | baby wrote: | Interestingly Huberman talks about double breath in, then | long breath out. | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBdhqBGqiMc | buescher wrote: | Off and on, I've been seeing woo about the vagus nerve for a | while. This article was refreshingly balanced. Now I know: | "Tracey's discovery also caught the attention of mind-body | practitioners, including the Dutch motivational speaker and | "Iceman" Wim Hof". Aha. Indeed. | | Where is the rest of this stuff coming from? Is there a deeper | dive? | hnbad wrote: | Any mention of Wim Hof deserves a mention of the fact that the | "Wim Hof Method" has a perfect verification mechanism: Wim Hof | has a twin brother who does not practice the method and | performs similarly well on most of the tests supposed to | demonstrate the method's efficacy: | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24773331 | | In other words: there's likely a genetic factor at play much | like no amount of training will give you the genetic advantage | Phelps has in terms of wing span and lung capacity: | https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/olympic-g... | esperent wrote: | > similarly well on most of the tests | | From your link they checked exactly one thing: shivering | response to cold following breathing exercises. Both twins | did exactly as well on this one test. That's not "most | tests". It's one test. And personally, being able to | withstand cold is the least interesting claimed benefit of | breathing techniques. | swader999 wrote: | Yes! And it's so easy to just try it and see for yourself. | Laughable that anyone wouldn't just take ten minutes to see | if it does anything. | giantg2 wrote: | There are a whole bunch of vagus nerve manipulations in current | medicine. Many are quite common to self treat for things like | converting episodes of SVT. Although the effectiveness is mixed. | If they could find a non-drug treatment for Afib, I bet that | would be big money based on the potential population and the | current drug cocktail side effects. | jbandela1 wrote: | > One thing that makes the vagus nerves so attractive is surgical | accessibility in the neck. "It is quite easy to implant some | device that will try to stimulate them," says Dr Benjamin | Metcalfe at the University of Bath, who is studying how the body | responds to electrical vagus nerve stimulation. | | Did these (with supervision) during residency. As far as | neurosurgeries go, fairly simple. You just have to be careful | when you expose the vagus nerve as it lies between the carotid | artery and the jugular vein. | | This is in contrast to Deep Brain Stimulation which involves | making a hole in the skull, exposing the brain, and inserting | electrodes deep within the brain. | Balgair wrote: | I did some work on DBS devices. | | Yeah, that's an intense surgery. | | The MD doing the implantation was a rockin' bitch-ass | motherfucking stone cold killer. Sorry for all the curse words, | but that's the best way to describe her. I've never been near | someone so dead calm no matter what. Just ice in the veins. She | was ~6'5" and wore 6" stilettos all the time. That surgeon had | _presence_. I 'd never want to meet her in a back alley late at | night. | | We were developing a new technique to help out with | implantation. One of the hard parts of DBS is knowing where to | leave the stimulating end of the electrodes. You want to hit a | specific region, but as everyone's brain is different, there's | no way to stereotype the process. We had a little optical | sensor that we were trying to use to guide the electrodes and | see differences in the neuronal density. The place you leave | the electrodes is in an area of relatively high density (S. | Nigra). Bunch of Fourier analysis, machine learning, and | machine vision went into it. | lr4444lr wrote: | ML for how to direct implantation, or the signals it | produced? | tempaway43355 wrote: | One of my children has severe epilepsy and has a Vagus Nerve | Stimulation device implanted - Sentiva 1000 | | https://www.livanova.com/epilepsy-vnstherapy/en-gb/hcp/produ... | | It has really helped although obviously it took surgery and then | also nine months of slowly tweaking the settings. | | Before the VNS they could (for example) not go on a trampoline | for more than a few minutes without having a seizure, but now | they're fine all day. They did still have seizures at night after | the VNS but we tackled those with a different treatment. | | The Sentiva 1000 sends regular soft pulses (for one minute every | 3.5 minutes) and can also react to heart rate rising suddenly | (which might mean a seizure) by automatically increasing its | pulses. During a seizure if we want to manually activate the | device we swipe over its location with a strong magnet and that | activates it to send stronger pulses for a minute or so. | | Batteries last about eight years. A few times a year we go to | check the battery, the nurses have an ipad and a wand-type thing | that they hold over the implants location, it uses some sort of | low power NFC to read data and diagnostics from the implant. When | we do need to change the battery that will be an operation. But | less complicated than the initial operation (and even that was | in-and-out in one day) | | All pretty amazing. | spread_love wrote: | Thanks for sharing. I'm considering VNS but frankly I'm | terrified of complications and recovery time. | tempaway43355 wrote: | Operation was in-and-out of hospital in one day. Then had a | big cellophane-like bandage on neck and shoulder area that | had to be kept clean and air-tight for 2 weeks. It was a good | bandage though, just had to patch it up occasionally with new | layers of cellophane-stuff. Main possible complication would | be infection (worse case is that device then has to be | removed) or some people have side effect where it feels like | their throat is ticked and they cough when device activates. | We didn't have any problems. | | Then once its all healed they turn the device using nfc wand | thing and then slowly increase the power bit by bit over | several months. There are various timing and frequency | settings that can be experimented with. | karaterobot wrote: | Here's a silly question: does your child feel the nerve | stimulation when it happens? | tempaway43355 wrote: | Thats a good question not a silly one. They don't have the | communication skills to tell me but they dont seem to be | aware of it. Apparently some people experience it as a | tingling sensation in throat or neck. | adversaryIdiot wrote: | i wonder why the battery cant be charged wirelessly | tempaway43355 wrote: | Interesting idea. Current battery in the device (I looked it | up) is: | | Chemistry: Lithium carbon monofluoride | | Voltage: 3.3 V, open circuit | | Rated capacity: 1 Amp-hour | | Self-discharge rate: <1% per year | | Its a tiny non-rechargeable battery presumably carefully | picked for safety and very slow usage over several years. | | I suppose the main barrier to wireless charging of implant | batteries would be heat - wireless charging generates heat. | And when something goes wrong with wireless charging it can | generate a lot of heat. So I guess its risky? But then | surgery to change a battery is also a significant risk. | | Also I guess someone would have to go through the long | process with the FDA of getting it all approved, whereas (at | a guess) people designing implants try and use already-proven | components and techniques where they can to make approval | more likely. | sudodude wrote: | Could also just be a battery lifetime issue? 8 years is a | long time. If they made it rechargeable, they might still | need to replace it every 8 years anyway just for safety. | tibbydudeza wrote: | This is so awesome - thanks for sharing this - my daughter also | has epilepsy, but it is fortunately controlled by medication. | | It seems that stimulating the vagus nerve resets something to | default in the brainstem when a cascade event is about to occur | - probably shuts down the errant signals from propagating to | the entire brain ???. | | Do you know which lobe in her brain it happens ??? (my daughter | has left temporal lobe) | tempaway43355 wrote: | My child has Dravet syndrome so its quite major seizure | activity and many different seizure types (tc, absence, | focal, myoclonic). I think slightly more left lobe than right | but its been a while since we had a full EEG. VNS is known to | help with Dravet in enough cases that they were prepared to | try the VNS. | | The VNS can help stop seizures but also there's a sortof | long-term effect from just having it firing every few minutes | all the time, seems to re-train the brain in some way. I'm | not sure if they really know how it works, just that it seems | to help. | | Another non-medication treatment that was very good for us | was the ketogenic diet. Like, hardcore proper ketogenic diet, | 4:1 ratio, prescribed and monitored by an NHS dietician. | Every meal measured out by the gram. Its hard work but it did | work very well. Its been properly researched - | https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16146451/ | https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25524846/ - for Dravet | syndrome at least, keto is as effective as the best AEDs with | fewer side effects. | [deleted] | [deleted] | victorbjorklund wrote: | Wow, I had no idea that the science around the vagus nerve had | progressed so far that we actually have implants that can be | used in humans. Amazing. I'm so happy it helps your child. | civilitty wrote: | I was really skeptical that any of these nerve stimulation | devices would work over a decade ago when the hype first | started growing around them (among biotech investors, not the | public). It just sounded way too good to be true but since | then there have been a number of devices treating migraines | and seizures that were previously intractable. | | Really happy to be proven wrong! | qiine wrote: | > Can you provide more info about nerve stimulation devices | treating migraines ? | voxic11 wrote: | https://www.gammacore.com/about/how-gammacore-works/ ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-08-23 23:00 UTC)