[HN Gopher] Every type of plastic used by LEGO (2022)
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Every type of plastic used by LEGO (2022)
Author : nkurz
Score : 290 points
Date : 2023-09-09 11:43 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (bricknerd.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (bricknerd.com)
| paulkrush wrote:
| This is a great read about plastics from an engineering
| perspective. Also this: "and, famously, LEGO makes most of the
| tires in the world, by number if not by mass!"
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| Was rubber (epdm?) mentioned btw?
| paulkrush wrote:
| Not rubber or epdm,but SEBS (Styrene-Ethylene-Butylene-
| Styrene) But Wikipedia does not use SEBS:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoplastic_elastomer
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| I'm no longer in my "Lego phase" but still found the article
| reading like a taxonomy of plastics in general.
|
| Like if you were to create a (okay, not-so) Periodic Table of
| Plastics, you might as well populate it with Lego parts because
| most of us are familiar with the bricks and their
| characteristics.
|
| (And, crazy, who knew Lego used Bakelite at one time?)
| em-bee wrote:
| which lego phase?
|
| _the kids want toys and build whatever comes to mind phase_
|
| or the _adults get childhood memories phase_
|
| or the _adults get elaborate expensive models with a few
| thousands of bricks that are to complex for kids phase_
| freitzkriesler2 wrote:
| I never understood the point of making sterile models. Legos,
| trains, or otherwise.
|
| I want to sit there and play with them. Create elaborate
| worlds. Have crazy car crashes, recreate die hard, and have
| plane crashes and other nutty things.
|
| The sad part is I'm in my 30s.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| "The sad part is I'm in my 30s. "
|
| The sad part is, many who are in their 30s, forgot how to
| play and have fun.
| dehrmann wrote:
| I get the sentiment, but at some point, the novelty wears
| off. Building a new set just isn't exciting because the
| process is almost exactly the same as building the last
| set.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| Huh? But you can recombine them in infinite ways..
| em-bee wrote:
| not everyone has the creativity for that. i am struggling
| too. the best i manage is to take existing models and fix
| flaws in them. the struggle is to find the right kind of
| abstraction. there are some people who create really
| awesome looking scenes. and every time i look at one my
| fingers itch. but designing something like that takes
| time and patience. i think i'll revisit that topic when i
| retired and less mobile.
| [deleted]
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| That's me right here. Sandbox entertainment, with no goal
| or point of reference, gives me anxiety attacks. A
| slightly directed sandbox is entertaining for a few
| hours, after which the thought that it's all arbitrary
| hits me and things stop being fun. Something in my mind
| broke, but I don't know when and why.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| You are looking for deeper meaning. That's probably not
| to be found in Lego, unless you use it to teach kids
| about engeneering/robotics (a shame they stopped the
| mindstorms). And coincidently, that is how I enjoy Lego
| nowdays. Building a big castle for myself would also feel
| like a waste of time, because I see so many problems in
| this world (my personal as well as the bigger one) that I
| can relate to not having fun with simple things that used
| to be fun, because I think I could do something more
| useful. (and then I don't play, but also don't do
| something useful - and that is then a waste of time)
| rootw0rm wrote:
| When I start feeling this way it's always my cue to read
| up on philosophy and religion and briefly reject my
| nihilistic views.
| TacticalCoder wrote:
| > The sad part is I'm in my 30s.
|
| I'm 50 but I've got an eight-years old daughter. So this
| week-end we're building the Lego Ducati Panigale bike
| (bought new) and we also ordered two used Lego "elves"
| sets.
|
| My daughter is really into Lego.
|
| And it's a blast from the past to see her play with my very
| own original space sets from the seventies (I think they're
| from the seventies).
|
| So yeah: having a kid (or niece/nephew) is the perfect
| excuse to play Lego again!
| ahoka wrote:
| This is literally the plot of the LEGO movie.
| xattt wrote:
| No one should gatekeep how you enjoy recreational time.
| em-bee wrote:
| fortunately with each generation this becomes less and
| less of a problem
| derefr wrote:
| I get the impression that when people are buying a Lego
| model of e.g. the Millennium Falcon, they aren't so much
| interested in building the model. They just _want_ a model
| of the Millennium Falcon, to display on their shelf; and
| the one that best optimizes appearance + affordability for
| them, just _happens_ to be one that comes as a kit of small
| modular parts that they must assemble. It 's less "a
| building-toy set that happens to build into a model" and
| more "a model that happened to be released by a building-
| toy company." The _making_ part of these sets is secondary.
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| This must be true since models with limited replay value
| other than gazing at its built state and maybe
| mesmerizing the fun of making it (cfr the ikea effect)
| seem to do well. It puzzles me.
| em-bee wrote:
| depends, i find the building part the most fun. once a
| model is built, it's less interesting. which is partly
| frustrating. i want to do more than just build a model
| and put it on a shelf.
| noufalibrahim wrote:
| The single model sets are more 3d jigsaw puzzle than
| building blocks.
|
| Fun to make and all but limited "replay value". It's a
| different kind of satisfaction.
| derefr wrote:
| You're forgetting the _adults take out their stash of blocks
| from the expensive models to help their own kids build
| whatever comes to mind_ phase :)
| em-bee wrote:
| there is also the: _don 't touch these, play with your own
| bricks_ phase
| hef19898 wrote:
| There isbalso the _take all my old, half assembled, sets
| from the 80s and have fun_ phase.
| em-bee wrote:
| i did that with my kids, although it was all completely
| disassembled. we had stored our stuff at my parents
| place, and when my dad sent the boxes (each 10kg) he said
| he could not find one box. so he bought another from ebay
| to make up the difference. then he found the lost box. my
| kids got more lego than i ever had. and they still wanted
| new stuff...
| aequitas wrote:
| Taken to the extreme as: glueing the pieces together with
| kragle to build an entire Lego city/world only for your
| son to free the Lego people from their boring repetitive
| prison and connect with his father on a whole new level.l
| when they start building a world and stories together.
| chasd00 wrote:
| And, as a parent, after stepping on a brick for the 20th
| time: never again will I ever buy any more and am
| gathering them all to donate right now phase.
| samastur wrote:
| yes
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| I guess PVC is not in the list because it can contain residues
| of its poisonous mono molecule.
| karol wrote:
| Do they also use microplastics?
| kibwen wrote:
| "Microplastic" describes a small pellet of plastic less than 5
| mm in length. It doesn't refer to any specific type of chemical
| used to create plastic.
|
| If the question is whether or not lego bricks generate
| microplastics, the answer is no, not really. Microplastics are
| mostly a problem when they wind up in the water supply, either
| from plastic fibers in clothes that are being washed, or
| plastic microbeads in shampoo that gets rinsed down the drain,
| or in plastic trash that has wound up in a river or ocean and
| is deteriorating into smaller particles.
| usrusr wrote:
| 4 mm is already considered microplastics? Wouldn't have
| guessed that. Almost as if the definition was "smaller than a
| 1x1 Lego plate" (which wouldn't be all that unreasonable I
| guess, it's the only system of units more commonly understood
| than the metric system)
| greggsy wrote:
| Most plastics with degrade to microplastic size, Lego included.
| RedShift1 wrote:
| You mean as a source material to create the pellets that
| ultimately go into the molding machines? Well no, microplastics
| can't be recycled because they've broken down too much to make
| usable plastic.
| flangola7 wrote:
| Can it melt down into macrosize plastic?
| [deleted]
| Xenoamorphous wrote:
| Is cellolose acetate the material used for (sun)glasses? Didn't
| know it had a tendency to warp.
| hammock wrote:
| Yes. Cellulose acetate warps or breaks down in two main ways:
| it can warp from plasticizer migration, and it can "weep" or
| liquify as it ages. Weeping has been called "vinegar syndrome"
| because of the smell involved, which of course is acetic acid.
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| Best to store the ray bans in a jar of vinegar then?
| hammock wrote:
| Storing in vinegar would catalyze and accelerate the
| decomposition of the acetate. And once it starts, it can't
| be stopped.
|
| To prevent decomposition, use breathable enclosures and
| store in a low temperature and low relative humidity.
| Proper storage and handling practices, particularly using
| gloves and storing in low light environments, can prevent
| vinegar syndrome almost entirely.
|
| These are learnings gleaned from those involved in the
| historical preservation of acetate photographic films.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| I never really thought about it much. But I guess this is why my
| baseplates from childhood want to shatter when bent and my kids
| just want to bend and go white? Or is that really just a function
| of time and not material?
| derefr wrote:
| That's a function of time. "Plasticizers", the chemicals that
| make plastics varying degrees of bendable+, sweat out of the
| plastic over time, turning the plastic stiff/brittle [which is
| really what plastics are like by default with no plasticizer in
| them] and the plastic's surface layer either oily or tacky,
| depending on the particular plastic. (The surface gets oily for
| "hard plastics", and tacky for "soft-touch" plastics. If you've
| ever touched a 40-year-old Apple keyboard cable, you know what
| soft-touch plastic with the plasticizer sweated out feels
| like.)
|
| + Which ironically makes "plasticizers" actually
| _elasticizers_. Plastics are polymers named for how they
| undergo _plastic deformation_ -- "bending and going white", as
| you say -- at pretty low stress levels. "Plasticizers" are
| ironically chemicals that make plastics into materials that
| undergo _elastic_ deformation -- flopping around without damage
| -- instead.
| feedsmgmt wrote:
| Aren't some of those plasticizers and dyes toxic?
| Hackbraten wrote:
| They sure are. The German word for elasticizer -
| Weichmacher (literally "soft-maker") - has acquired a
| negative connotation over the years. Colloquially, it's now
| kind of synonymous to toxic stuff in plastics.
| ryukoposting wrote:
| I was always a Lego kid (and I dabble as an adult- those
| Mindstorms robotics sets are a hoot) so this was a fun read. I
| knew ABS was the main material they used, and the bendy Bionicle
| parts must have been made of something else, but I had no idea
| that the whole story was this complex. It's remarkable that they
| can manage such an enormous catalog of parts, while also handling
| all the fiddly variations in manufacturing processes for each
| material. Good stuff.
| stefantalpalaru wrote:
| [dead]
| amelius wrote:
| What about food safety? Can I safely put a sandwich in my self-
| made LEGO lunchbox and then eat it?
| OJFord wrote:
| Approx. a billion times more risk from wherever you've been
| keeping the bricks, what else they've touched etc. rather than
| the plastic itself.
|
| I assume you're from the US? What is it that seems to promote
| such food safety fear over there? It's really noticeable in 3D
| printing and food preservation communities/recipes.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| ABS can be food safe, but there is more to food safety than the
| type of plastic used. And I don't think Lego is food safe, it
| is certainly not advertised as such.
|
| An important consideration when it comes to food safety is that
| your it doesn't become a breeding ground for bacteria. That's
| why FDM 3D prints are usually not food safe no matter what they
| are made off. For your Lego lunchbox, assuming the bricks
| themselves were food safe, you would probably need to regularly
| take the box apart and wash each brick individually.
|
| That being said it probably won't kill you, but don't expect
| Lego or anyone in a position of authority to tell you that's
| fine.
| amelius wrote:
| Ok, so now my next question: is LEGO dishwasher safe?
| OJFord wrote:
| Depends on the plastic, it's just the same question (for
| plastics anyway) as what temperature does it deform at. So
| if a thermoplastic just needs to be stable up to at least
| 70degC or whatever max temp. you're going to run it at.
| xattt wrote:
| I'd be concerned for the water tightness of this
| theoretical modular dishwasher.
| kuschku wrote:
| Yes, but the best way to wash Lego bricks is to disassemble
| the build, put the bricks into a washing net (the type
| you'd use for a bra), and put it in a european-style
| washing machine together with your regular clothes.
|
| It'll come out perfectly clean without any damage.
| kuschku wrote:
| If you use ABS or MABS bricks, yes. If you use older PP bricks,
| I'd recommend against it.
| OJFord wrote:
| Why? Loads of food containers are made of PP. Is it the age
| rather than the material that puts you off?
|
| I assume not porousness, since by far the largest pores
| regardless of material will be the brick joints.
| kuschku wrote:
| BPA-containing materials are not food-grade in EU.
| OJFord wrote:
| PP is BPA-free and widely used in the EU.
| bseidensticker wrote:
| PP does not contain BPA. You might be thinking of PC.
| kuschku wrote:
| Ah sorry, you're indeed right. Some PET materials would
| also contain BPA.
|
| Either way, I'd be careful.
| RedShift1 wrote:
| Why wouldn't you? I'm pretty sure lots of kids put lego (or
| more likely duplo) pieces in their mouth all the time. Probably
| about the same risk as drinking from a plastic bottle.
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| The old jaw pliers were necessary when you didn't have that
| little wedge they sell.
| ofrzeta wrote:
| Lego itself has almost the same page
|
| https://www.lego.com/en-us/sustainability/product-safety/mat...
| caesil wrote:
| Did they just basically copy that Bricknerd post? The
| composition of some of those graphics (particularly TP) looks
| suspiciously similar.
| OJFord wrote:
| Nice they have that. Just to point out though, OP does add
| historical materials (vs. Lego's seems to be just current uses)
| as well as some details like who supplies it.
| oktwtf wrote:
| The ones made of actual candy are the most palatable.
| 1-6 wrote:
| I wonder how much plastic waste the Lego company has added to the
| environment?
| dudul wrote:
| If it's plastic in use does it matter? Legos don't get thrown
| out. They almost never break with the exception of a few exotic
| pieces that are a big more fragile. Even clips are surprisingly
| durable.
|
| Compare this with dolls, trucks, etc that break after 6 months
| and do end up in the trash. Phones, laptops, TVs these create
| so much more waste than bricks that are still perfectly usable
| 40 years later - I know, I have a lot.
| PhilipRoman wrote:
| I don't see why Lego needs to be singled out here. It is (by
| volume and weight) a relatively expensive product and it's not
| like anyone is buying bricks by the ton and dumping them from
| trucks. Besides, it is one of the most reusable toys to ever
| exist.
| tigerlily wrote:
| Some things I haven't seen answers to yet: What's the best way to
| store lego to keep it like new, or at least well preserved? Is
| the material choice of the storage container important? Is it
| possible to improve the quality of old bricks by storing it
| together new material of the same plastic type? (A bit like
| reviving stale bread or cookies/biscuits with fresh ones)
|
| Anybody any experience with this?
| Ma8ee wrote:
| I've recently unpacked my own childhoods Lego, and most pieces
| are like new even after 40 years. Some white pieces are a bit
| yellow, but it's inconsistent, so I suspect that happened by
| laying in the sun before it all was packed away. The battery
| boxes seems to have become a bit brittle.
|
| The lego has been stored in cardboard boxes first in the attic
| in my parents house, and after that in miscellaneous cellars
| and then an attic again.
| ComputerGuru wrote:
| Not a Lego expert but from a material science perspective your
| worst culprit is always going to be UV, or sun exposure. It'll
| change colors, make plastics brittle, and even introduce some
| warping. Then come heat and oxygen. Obviously some materials
| are more susceptible to chemical damage than others; ABS is
| very prone to breaking down even from exposure to weak solvents
| while PET is ridiculously solvent-resistant.
|
| Storing old bricks with new shouldn't really matter. ABS off
| gases but mainly when heated. Most damage to ABS is
| irreversible. It's not a great long-term material and it has
| many shortcomings.
| alentred wrote:
| Hard to not to have a cognitive dissonance on this one. As a kid
| I loved Lego, and my kids have plenty too. But thinking of all
| that plastic that eventually makes its way to a dumpster... Lego
| is brining so much joy, but you can't ignore the environmental
| impact too. I am actually disappointed at myself about not having
| thought to buy second-hand instead.
|
| It is an interesting example of why the pollution problem is
| hard. Here we are not even talking about anything essential for
| the quality life, not even comfort. That's basically "just a
| toy". But, theoretically, would we be willing to give it up if we
| don't find an environmentally friendly way to make it?
| skeltoac wrote:
| Toward the end of the article they mention the investments LEGO
| are making into developing sustainable, plant-based plastics.
| They are doing the work. Keep buying LEGO and feel good knowing
| you are helping to curb the plastic waste problem.
| dudul wrote:
| I've never heard of someone throwing away legislation. My son
| and daughter got my collection. Sets from the 80s that are
| amazing and in excellent shape. Some of them could be sold for
| thousands of dollars.
|
| Legos are more profitable than gold in terms of investment -
| literally. So yeah, throwing away Legos is really really dumb.
| carstenhag wrote:
| Adding onto the other comments (durable for generations) -
| almost no other toy is like that.
|
| Barbies break. Toy cars break or the models get out of fashion.
| Electronic stuff is broken or severely out of date 20 years
| later. Sport equipment can be durable, but usually holds for
| less than 10 years.
|
| In the grand scheme of things, Lego is completely fine, we have
| hundreds of more wasteful one-time-plastic usages.
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| For me, lego is an example of the mantra to make durable things
| that last for a very long time (several generations), having
| the benefit of not easily ending in a landfill or being burnt.
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| Who is throwing away their lego? Its probably the one hand me
| down toy thats truly stood the test of time.
| jtriangle wrote:
| Idk what happened with you, but I inherited legos from my older
| cousins and then when I grew out of my collection my newphew
| got it. No legos ended up in a landfill.
|
| If you threw yours out, that's your fault, and does not mean
| there needs to be an environmentally friendly way to make legos
| (which will undoubtedly be functionally worse and not last as
| long).
| alentred wrote:
| Oh, I am not saying I threw out mine, I wouldn't do such a
| thing. It is just hard to imagine that all of it ever
| produced is not.
| romseb wrote:
| Plastics have become part of our culture. Just about everybody
| wears it on their bodies.
|
| As for environmentally friendly alternatives, the German
| company Anker offers "real" bricks made of a mixture of quartz
| sand, chalk, and linseed oil.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_Stone_Blocks
| userbinator wrote:
| As someone who liked to push my Lego creations to the limit when
| I was very young, the smell of friction-overheated ABS is very
| familiar to me.
| SCUSKU wrote:
| What types of things were you building? Presumably you were
| using the Technic sets?
| userbinator wrote:
| Vehicles with sliding rails and the like.
| toddmorey wrote:
| "But as of now, no final replacement has been announced, and the
| vast majority of LEGO parts remain fossil-fuel-based"
|
| I think their initial goal was sustainable Legos by 2030. I
| applaud their decision but it seems it's been hard to
| materialize. Bummer but I hope they keep pushing.
| beloch wrote:
| Using fossil fuels to grow food, move things and people around,
| etc. all puts CO2 and other pollutants directly into the
| atmosphere. Using it to make lego, on the other hand, is
| comparatively benign.
|
| If they can come up with a replacement plastic that has a lower
| environmental impact, that'd be great. However, they shouldn't
| use a less environmentally friendly alternative just because
| it's not based on fossil fuels. That would just be
| greenwashing.
| metadat wrote:
| > That would just be greenwashing.
|
| _Greenwashing, also called "green sheen", is a form of
| advertising or marketing spin in which green PR and green
| marketing are deceptively used to persuade the public that an
| organization's products, aims and policies are
| environmentally friendly._
|
| Green-manufactured LEGO doesn't qualify..
|
| Edit: @beloch: got it, thanks for educating me.
| beloch wrote:
| It fits the definition if the new manufacturing process is
| less environmentally friendly.
| blamazon wrote:
| Just to state one aspect of this, since I don't think you
| said it explicitly. Alternative plastics currently are
| generally not as efficient to produce as mainline
| plastics, IE they consume more energy. If that energy
| consumption is connected to fossil fuels, it could be a
| step backwards to implement such a process at Lego scale.
| There's also another aspect of, if the demand of global
| oil used for plastics goes down, it could be more
| appealing to burn oil for energy, if the price goes down
| accordingly. There's some argument to be made that while
| we spin down the oil industry we should be making more
| fossil fuel based plastics, to be entombed in the earth
| somewhat like nuclear waste. I say all this unhappily as
| someone who really wants our species to make forward
| progress on climate and resource policy.
| yyyk wrote:
| Note that in a lot of cases, getting rid of plastics
| really means 'burning plastics' which is definitely not
| warming-friendly.
|
| * This is done since a landfill has its own issues, and
| recycling plastics does not work.
| deviantbit wrote:
| Where is the stainless steel? I know I've stepped on a few that
| were stainless steel (sarcasm).
| hasmanean wrote:
| Where are the concrete ones? I want to build a Lego house I can
| live in. (Non sarcasm)
| Mountain_Skies wrote:
| ICF and cinder blocks are somewhat close to Legos for houses.
| coryrc wrote:
| I know you're just joking, but concrete is weak in tension
| and it doesn't bend much before breaking, so they cannot be
| made like Lego bricks because they will not connect securely.
|
| The closest you can get IMO is the Roman Colosseum. It's
| mostly made of large blocks with a series of notches in them.
| Metal bars are placed in the notches so the blocks can move
| slightly in relation to each other, but not so much as to
| fall apart.
| cuttysnark wrote:
| There's a recycling plant not far from where I take the
| train. In their yard, they have large (5' x 3') concrete
| blocks that are "stackable" in that they have voids in
| their bottoms that fit their counterpart's ridges on the
| tops--just like a lego.
|
| They stack these 4 or 5 high and create huge U-shaped
| corrals for various types of metals.
|
| My town does something similar to store rock stalk for the
| winter--these blocks are stacked and a pre-fab roof is
| placed directly on top.
|
| To my knowledge, there is no mortar or rebar of any kind,
| and it can be undone and reworked into another
| configuration with just a forklift.
|
| These are meant to be temporary, but have been there for >8
| and >5 years respectively.
|
| Somewhat related: The famed "Jersey Divider" is cast in a
| similar way, albeit without any consideration for vertical
| stacking.
| azdle wrote:
| > concrete blocks that are "stackable"
|
| I've heard these called 'Benton Blocks', though, looking
| that up now, that seems to be a brand [0], not sure if
| there's a more specific generic term other than 'concrete
| block'.
|
| > Somewhat related: The famed "Jersey Divider" is cast in
| a similar way, albeit without any consideration for
| vertical stacking.
|
| I think Jersey Barriers are usually re-enforced with
| steel rebar and all the ones that I've seen have a steel
| cable running through them with a loop at either end to
| link up to the one next to it, by dropping a pole or
| similar through both sets of loops, to create a
| continuous wall. (Though, interestingly, the Wikipedia
| article [1] doesn't seem to mention that feature.)
|
| [0] https://betonblockusa.com/us/products/concrete-blocks
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jersey_barrier
| araes wrote:
| I think you're looking for "Bin Blocks."
|
| https://48barriers.com/products/concrete-bin-block/
| kazinator wrote:
| > _Most people know that most LEGO bricks are made of ABS_
|
| LOL? No, most people don't know that? Shall we head to the
| streets and make a video where we interview random people about
| what plastic is used in Lego bricks?
|
| If we do that in the hallways of a chemistry building at a major
| university campus, we might hit above 50%, particularly if we go
| at a time when it's not crawling with undergrads.
| KolmogorovComp wrote:
| Most people who consult bricknerd.com I guess (which is an
| awesome name).
| jhallenworld wrote:
| So I repair old cars and old electronics. Is there anything
| better than ABS? The problem with it is that it becomes brittle
| with age.
|
| Same question for belts that you find in record players and tape
| recorders- they turn to goo.
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(page generated 2023-09-09 23:00 UTC)