[HN Gopher] The brain is not an onion with a tiny reptile inside... ___________________________________________________________________ The brain is not an onion with a tiny reptile inside (2020) Author : optimalsolver Score : 217 points Date : 2023-09-18 12:12 UTC (10 hours ago) (HTM) web link (journals.sagepub.com) (TXT) w3m dump (journals.sagepub.com) | mrangle wrote: | The inarticulate abstract was a red flag. I read 2/3 of the paper | before giving up when finally, after untold quantity of | adjectives, assertions, and halfway through, the supposed first | couple of arguments made an appearance and were mostly | indecipherable as such. The paper reads like what a high school | junior thinks that a research review(?) is supposed to look like. | Also, it is clear to me that the authors began with a conclusion | around which they attempted to wrap support. The psych field | needs low quality papers like Alaska needs snow. | mrkeen wrote: | What was wrong with the abstract? * Widespread | misconceptions: a) "Newer" brain structures were added | on top of "older" brain structures. b) The "newer" | brain structures provide more complex functions. * | Psychologists have been publishing these in textbooks. * | Neurobiologists have known these to be wrong for some time. | mrangle wrote: | The core statement of the abstract is that the author's | conclusions are the "clear an unanimous" views of "those | studying nervous system evolution". | | This statement is incorrect on its face. Worse, it would be a | bad scientific statement in any paper. Last, it is at once | superfluous and incomplete even if it were true. Instead, a | good abstract would briefly list the points of the author's | preferred theory rather than waste the reader's time by only | deferring to a loosely defined general authority in support | of an assertion. Which is abstract writing 101, at least in | fields for which writing standards are somewhat kept. Maybe | that isn't the psychology field, but it should be. | | The last sentence of the abstract reads as if written by said | high school junior. Science authors generally don't use the | word "mistaken" to describe another theory, especially in the | context of theories of brain evolution nor for anything else | for which literally every theory can only be a theory. | Including that preferred by the author. | | Good papers don't introduce their arguments / pov halfway | through, or further. Good papers don't lean on deference to | authority 1/2 paper before presenting what is supposed to be | their evidence or theory. Good papers almost completely | exclude adjectives when describing theories, conclusions, or | data, let alone negative adjectives that are doing all of the | work in making their yet-unsupported point. | nickdothutton wrote: | I think some people's brains have trouble understanding the | purpose and value of models (it's their predictive power). For | some use cases it doesnt matter of the model is "correct" so much | as whether or not it has predictive value. I'm sure someone else | here can phrase it far better than I. | sebringj wrote: | I can think of it like the wheels are still there, the frame, | engine, body etc but the design and materials have been | completely refined and overhauled to be modern future tech today. | The car even has new stuff like electronics and wifi. Meaning | there are still base conceptual things there but they are not the | same...knowing that reasoning by analogy is flawed but still | satisfying to me to feel like I understand it enough. | 1lint wrote: | I'm surprised by how much this publication reads like an advocacy | piece for a specific viewpoint, rather than an objective review | of existing literature. Just from reading the paper, it is clear | that there are many experts in the field that take the opposing | viewpoint that is being attacked in the paper, especially | considering that their hypotheses have been published in widely | circulated textbooks. | | When it comes to research publications in general, I very much | prefer to hear an objective, good faith presentation of the major | viewpoints, with the author taking an opinionated but measured | take in the conclusion as they review the overall weight of the | literature. I'm sure there are issues with this "triune brain" | model, but at a certain level every model is inaccurate; the real | question is whether a model is useful in its framework, and the | answer has a degree of subjectivity such that I do not think it | is fair to categorically reject the perspectives of opposing | experts in the field. | [deleted] | moab9 wrote: | There's a rat in there. | dicroce wrote: | Not that the opinion of some random on the internet means | anything, BUT.... | | I think the neocortex for the most part lets other parts of the | brain control themselves... and really only has high level | access. I think emotions are one of these lower level semi | autonomous subsystems... but so are things like autonomous body | control, balance, each of the senses etc, etc... The neocortex is | playing the "Human" video game and controlling things from a high | level... but cannot directly control every aspect of these | subsystems... and honestly, this is how complexity is dealt with | (if the neocortex could control it all, the whats the point of | the other subsystems)? | user3939382 wrote: | It may not be true from the perspective of evolutionary biology. | But 90% of the time I've heard this referenced (our "primitive | brain") it's a useful device for discussing the parts of our | psychology we have in common with more primitive members of the | animal kingdom. That's not to contradict the article whatsoever, | which is explicitly addressed to psychologists who, I concur, | should be educated and clear on the distinction between a | rhetorical device and real biology. | robg wrote: | The autonomic nervous system is real biology that most | psychologists don't start with. While this article is based on | textbook descriptions of the evolution of the brain in the | skull, not seeing much on how the autonomic nervous system _is_ | primal specifically for survival. | libraryatnight wrote: | I'd be more inclined to agree if it weren't an increasing issue | in my life that laymen do not understand they're parroting back | a rhetorical device and use this information to make all kinds | of ridiculous conclusions. | toomim wrote: | Like what? | teucris wrote: | Increasing? This has always, and will always be an issue. My | approach is to roll with it - rather than banish them | altogether, I treat all devices like this as such and no | more, holding others to the same standard. This, hopefully | shifts the meaning away from the scientific and towards the | domain of "quaint sayings." For instance, I invoke the | concept of the "lizard brain" quite commonly as a way of | expressing how base instincts can override my better | judgement. But I'm careful to never imply there (in the words | of the article) "a scala naturae view of evolution in which | animals can be arranged linearly from 'simple' to the most | 'complex' organisms." | peoplefromibiza wrote: | if only psychology was a real science where hypothesis are | thoroughly tested and tests are independently reproduced. | hutzlibu wrote: | Well, the main problem with this is, it would require human | experimentation to be efficient. You know, those babies raised | in this way, those in that way. And by the age of 2 cut open | and everything meassured. | | Or do you have other ideas how to do proper testing? | | Because otherwise experiments with control groups, electrodes, | MRT etc. are a thing in psychology. But you can only achieve so | much with it. | syndicatedjelly wrote: | The study of psychology is done in neuroscience. But the | research is extremely different. Neuroscience is like | studying quantum mechanics and electromagnetism to understand | the movement of electrons in a wire, while Psychology is | comparable to UI/UX research. | | Many people are working on bridging neuroscience and | psychology but it hasn't happened yet. | wslh wrote: | BTW, is there something new and interesting about the | connection between quantum mechanics and the brain? There | are many articles/papers in [1] but it would be great to | hear from someone in the field. | | [1] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_ylo=2019&q=quantu | m+bra... | syndicatedjelly wrote: | Sorry I didn't mean to come off as if I'm in research, I | just have a BS in neuroscience. No longer doing anything | with the degree | hutzlibu wrote: | Ok, I see (maybe formally wrong) neuroscience as a part of | psychology. (At least some psychologists I talked to, had | this position) | | And the reason why bridging is not really happening, | because of the ethical restrictions. But this is my | hypothesis. The other hypothesis might be, that too many | careers depend on models that would not hold up by | experiments, but I really cannot judge here because of lack | of knowledge. | syndicatedjelly wrote: | It's more of the former - it's not ethical to do the | experiments that would prove or disprove the hypothesized | links. There's plenty of real work to do, not a | conspiracy lol | robertlagrant wrote: | > Ok, I see (maybe formally wrong) neuroscience as a part | of psychology. (At least some psychologists I talked to, | had this position) | | They might believe this in the same way that some UX | people might view all of software as a subset of UX, | because everything ends up as an experience for some user | somewhere. | peoplefromibiza wrote: | > Or do you have other ideas how to do proper testing? | | Well, for starters don't call them studies, call them | "hunches" or "intuitions" or whatever you like to indicate | that there is actually no real evidence to prove your thesis. | | Occam's razor tells us to believe that it's much more | plausible that psychologist publish massaged data to keep | getting funded, than because it's actually very hard to admit | that "we don't know for sure, this study proves nothing". | | Have you ever heard of my fellow Italian professor Francesca | Gino? | micromacrofoot wrote: | Unless you want to start growing test subject humans in vats, | it's not exactly something that's as simple as "testing right" | -- the problem isn't lack of will or skill. We can't just throw | rats at this problem like many scientific fields do. | jiofj wrote: | Which is why it's not a real science. No one is saying that | "scientists" working on psychology are negligent, but that | it's impossible for psychology to meet the requirements of a | real science. | micromacrofoot wrote: | I think it's a little harmful to start saying "real | science" -- this is something that _is_ at times meant to | discredit psychology entirely, so it 's an unfortunately | loaded phrase. | | I think they're still doing science, it's just much more | difficult given physical and ethical constraints. | mrkeen wrote: | The arguments in this thread: | | * Psychology is not a "real" science because it doesn't | produce quality evidence. | | * But quality psychological evidence is (too) hard to | produce. | | See how the second point doesn't really refute the first? | micromacrofoot wrote: | You're missing the point that calling something "not | real" is very often used as a method to discredit it. | Saying "not real" discredits the fact that there are more | barriers here. | | That's my primary issue with this. Phrenology can also be | called "not real science" but it doesn't seem fair to | paint both with such a broad brush. There's more nuance | involved than an off-the-cuff "not real." | | Though at this point it all feels too belabored to carry | on. | peoplefromibiza wrote: | yeah, exactly, it's not real science. Doesn't matter why. | | Atomic bombs are very dangerous too and not very easy to | "test them right", but atomic physics is a real science. | | Anyway, the problem in psychology is that psychologists often | lie and fabricate false evidence, not that the rats aren't | enough. | | There are multiple studies about it, published by scientists, | most of them agree that _" Don't trust everything you read in | the psychology literature. In fact, two thirds of it should | probably be distrusted."_ | | There's a point where a field can't keep going on shielding | behind the false myth that "the problem is that we can't test | on humans". | hutzlibu wrote: | "There are multiple studies about it, published by | scientists, most of them agree that "Don't trust everything | you read in the psychology literature. In fact, two thirds | of it should probably be distrusted."" | | Can you link a study, that makes such a claim? | micromacrofoot wrote: | Sorry if I misunderstood, it's just that at times "real | science" is used to discredit psychology as a field | entirely so there's a bit of defensiveness involved. | lukeinator42 wrote: | Exactly, and the irony is that there are a lot of cognitive | neuroscientists doing human participant research all the | time. It's honestly easier than doing the ethics for animal | research these days. I don't understand all the comments | from everyone saying it's impossible to do reliable | research with human participants, haha. | anigbrowl wrote: | I have not read the paper yet, but what a great title - a very | welcome change from the formulaic 'verbing the noun: towards a | metastatic model of semantic construction' that has become so | widespread over the last couple of decades. | lukeinator42 wrote: | I think it's easy to underestimate how different our brains are | relative to different classes of animals, and there is a lot of | convergent evolution going on. | | For example, even low level auditory perception, such as how the | brain evolved to localize sound directions, evolved independently | in mammals and birds: | https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/physrev.000... | (this is because their common ancestor didn't have a tympanic | ear). | | So the Triune brain really isn't the best model for explaining | what is going on in the brain. Models such as reinforcement | learning don't fully explain what is going on in the brain | either, but I think explanations such as how dopamine flooding | the reward system can mess with predicted rewards and contribute | to addiction, etc. are more useful. | alex01001 wrote: | brain is a receptor for consciousness, it doesn't create it. | Consciousness is "broadcasted". | [deleted] | FeteCommuniste wrote: | That's a spicy take. Is there any evidence to support it? | booleandilemma wrote: | I recently read about that idea in the book "Notes on | Complexity: A Scientific Theory of Connection, Consciousness, | and Being". | | It's an interesting idea. I'm not sure why the parent is | being downvoted. | | https://www.amazon.com/Notes-Complexity-Scientific- | Connectio... | kbelder wrote: | >It's an interesting idea. I'm not sure why the parent is | being downvoted. | | Probably because he stated it as a fact instead of an | interesting fringe theory. | fieldbob wrote: | To figure this out one has to sit in meditation and find out for | one self This is metaphysics not psychology, perhaps you are | asking the wrong people. | potatoman22 wrote: | Why is science not suitable to answer this question? | mistermann wrote: | Inappropriate methodology, culture(s), conventions, etc. | shadowgovt wrote: | For all the good work he did, this is the one misstep in Sagan's | career that likely caused the most disruption: he was big on the | "reptile brain inside a mammal brain" hypothesis and described it | quite convincingly on _Cosmos._ | | We don't have a great strategy yet for undoing the work of an | effective science educator when they teach things science goes on | to disprove. | aaroninsf wrote: | ITT a lot of fully justified scorn for pearl-clutching | performative polemics. | | An interesting application of weasel words and passive voice in | the article.. | crazygringo wrote: | After reading this article as well as the relevant Wikipedia | entry [1], I still don't get what's supposedly "wrong" with the | triune brain model. | | In fact, this article seems to set it up as a bit of a straw man. | The main rebuttals in this article are 1) that evolution is | branched rather than linear, 2) that larger brains aren't | necessarily more complex, and 3) that evolution modifies existing | brain structures in addition to adding new layers. | | But all of that seems rather obvious, and doesn't really refute | the triune brain theory at all. | | Isn't it scientifically true that we have a basal ganglia which | evolved from reptiles, a limbic system also present mammals, and | a neocortex that works similarly to that in other primates, | dolphins, and elephants? And each of those map to certain types | of behaviors, that we see in these species? | | The triune brain hypothesis doesn't seem "wrong", it just seems | like a simple categorization that is useful for making big- | picture distinctions. | | Am I missing something? I literally don't understand what is even | being "refuted" here, because the refutations don't seem to match | the claims at all. | | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triune_brain | [deleted] | cosmojg wrote: | > But all of that seems rather obvious, and doesn't really | refute the triune brain theory at all. | | > The triune brain hypothesis doesn't seem "wrong", it just | seems like a simple categorization that is useful for making | big-picture distinctions. | | Right, but having worked in the field, I can assure you that | there are, in fact, too many practicing psychologists, | cognitive scientists, and even neuroscientists who believe the | triune model of the brain to be literally and, sometimes, | absolutely true. These are the types of people whom the linked | paper is trying to reach. | | Misunderstandings based on these oversimplified models are | driving the current debate around modular versus distributed | computation in the brain[1]. Obviously, a more accurate model | of the brain would account for both ideas, but there is growing | concern in the neuroscientific community over the amount of | grant money going toward defending older, dead-end modular | models instead of improving newer, more promising distributed | models, mostly as a result of entrenched interests prioritizing | the maintenance of prestige over the pursuit of truth. | | In short, putting bad models on blast is good and necessary for | the advancement of science. You can get a lot done with the | plum pudding model[2] of the atom, but you can get far more | done with the Bohr model[3] which emerged only after | Rutherford, Bohr, and several other physicists published | several iterative takedowns of the former, and yes, they too | had to deal with entrenched interests who operated under the | assumption that the plum pudding model was literally and | absolutely true. It took a decade of experiments and several | increasingly correct models before academic consensus shifted | enough to accept the existence of subatomic particles and | academic consensus began its collective investment in quantum | mechanics. We're now in a similar place with neuroscience in | the tension between modular computational models, which | includes the triune brain model, and distributed computational | models, which are showing promise in rescuing fMRI studies with | their strong modular tradition from the replication crisis[4]. | | [1] https://www.cell.com/trends/cognitive- | sciences/fulltext/S136... | | [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plum_pudding_model | | [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohr_model | | [4] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5457304/ | JohnAaronNelson wrote: | Thank you for your contributions. Am I correct that you are | asserting there are substantial numbers of practicing | psychologists that literally and absolutely believe inner | structures of the brain are _unchanged_ over hundreds of | millions of years, _and_ they can _and_ will be reached by | this paper? | | If anyone doesn't understand "All models are wrong, but some | are useful" I don't know if you'll reach them with this | paper. | | Maybe it needs to be said. It's possible the most useful | papers are those that assert obvious things in ways that | refute our basic models so we can see things differently. | It's also possible this is a clickbait paper that isn't | saying anything new, just trying to be controversial. | civilized wrote: | Looking at this as an amateur, it seems like the key question | here is "does the human brain have substructures that are | similar enough to brain structures from ancestral species that | it makes sense to consider them as the 'same' entity with the | same name?" | hasmanean wrote: | Humans have this ability to obfuscate any issue. When there is | a simple pattern for things some people always take edge cases | and argue that the pattern is really not true. They don't | understand how models of the world work. Of _course_ it's not | ideal but it's a useful framework for understanding things. | | I imagine the reason Newton's laws never developed before was | because of all the influential know-it-alls who took empirical | data (moving objects stop! Gaseous balloons rise!) and drew the | wrong conclusions from it (gases want to rise up to be with all | the other gases...solids want to be at rest.) | | It took Newton to do a thought experiment of a projectile | moving in outer space to deduce his laws of motion. | | The fact is that newtons laws aren't really observable on | earth, unless you have the imagination to see it and do the | mental bookkeeping of accounting for friction as a separate | force. | xzsinu wrote: | The triune model of the brain is not just a simplification, | but one that promotes antiquated biases about human | intelligence in how human intelligence differs from non-human | intelligence, how intelligence is distributed among humans | themselves, and what is essential to defining human | intelligence itself. | | The lizard, small mammal, human distinction maps pretty | deceptively onto Aristotle's distinctions between the souls: | vegetative (plant), sensitive (animal), and rational (human). | So if one is trying to pinpoint the seat of intelligence, it | seems to follow that we can ignore the two lower sections of | the brain in favor of the higher one. Franz Joseph Gall, the | founder of phrenology, himself did that, writing off the | cerebellum as relevant only for producing the sexual drive | [1]. | | Scientific theories of self-control which were nothing more | than Christian dualist arguments evolved out of Gall's work | and argued that intelligence involved suppression of the | lower faculties, which provided cover for eugenicist and | supremacist arguments throughout the 20th century and still | shows up today in popular theories about how the 'limbic | system' subverts the rational capacities of individuals and | is used to manipulate the masses (Elon loves this theory). | | Current work funded at the intersection of artificial | intelligence and neuroscience still prioritizes the neocortex | as the seat of rationality, with some like Jeff Hawkins (Palm | founder turned brain scientist) arguing that "intelligence is | an algorithm found in the neocortex". Singularity arguments | rely in part on the assumption that intelligence in humans is | mostly limited by the other parts of the brain, not empowered | by them, and that a form of intelligence freed of embodiment | will inevitably exterminate those that are embodied by right. | | The truth is, neglected sub-regions such as the "lizard" | cerebellum actually contain the vast majority of neurons, | have been shown to have evolved disproportionately larger | within early hominins [2], and are theorized to be equally | involved in abstract cognition as in bodily manipulation [3]. | This is something of a paradigm shift that has only been able | to take shape since the late 20th-century (through the work | of Jeremy Schmahmann, Peter Strick and others[4]), even | though hints of it have been present in the data since it was | collected, and that's because of how compelling the triune | brain model has been. Research in this direction can directly | address mental illnesses such as schizophrenia, but it has to | be funded first [5]. | | [1] https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnana.2019.0 | 004... | | [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25283776/ | | [3] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03 | 043... | | [4] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S089662 | 731... | | [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UUqKuhvTk0 | [deleted] | feoren wrote: | Your argument seems to mostly rest on the idea that people | can "poison" a fundamental idea by misinterpreting it and | drawing silly conclusions from it. It sounds like if I | argued that "1 + 1 = 2 and therefore we should do | genocide", you'd be (rightly) abhorred by the conclusion, | and the next time you saw someone using 1 + 1 = 2 as the | basis for a completely different argument, you'd villainize | them as using an argument that "promotes genocide" or "has | been used to justify genocide". I really don't care what | the founder of phrenology thought, nor Christian dualists, | nor even Jeff Hawkins. | | In general I think this effect contributes to a lot of | "over-debunking". We see way over-simplified, yet very | loosely accurate, mid 20th century scientific models like | the triune brain, "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny", the | left-brain vs. right-brain, and the idea that differences | in language contribute to differences in cognition; and | then silly people take these models _way_ too far and use | them to justify dubious things; and then they become over- | debunked to the point that speaking them aloud immediately | ostracizes you as some outdated bigot; while the whole time | the models themselves have been reasonably OK high-level | starting points for discussion that obviously need revision | for any lower-level details. | | > The truth is, neglected sub-regions such as the "lizard" | cerebellum actually contain the vast majority of neurons, | have been shown to have evolved disproportionately larger | within early hominins [2], and are theorized to be equally | involved in abstract cognition as in bodily manipulation. | | The relative number of neurons is not evidence for or | against the model, nor the fact that they were larger in | early hominins. Showing their involvement in abstract | cognition is more interesting, but that's only evidence | against the triune brain if you make the _exact same | mistake_ that you 're criticizing, which is assuming that | "abstract cognition" is some high-level uniquely human (or | primate) trait. If that exact "abstract cognition" also | exists in reptiles and birds (and it appears to), then the | fact that the cerebellum contributes to that cognition is | _not_ evidence against Triune Brain. | mistermann wrote: | > They don't understand how models of the world work. Of | course it's not ideal but it's a useful framework for | understanding things. | | Based on the rather casual way the author is using language | in this piece, I'd bet that the researchers forgot that what | they are describing are (nested) model(s) of reality...or | that that level of precision is "pedantic" (the consequence | being the confusion in this comment section). | EricMausler wrote: | I'm not sure which side you are arguing for? | | Is the simple metaphor of 3 layers in the brain equivalent to | saying gasses want to be together and solids want to rest? | | I think part of the debate in the comment section is on what | kind of order / pattern we are trying to capture with the | analogy. Does it make more sense to be analogous to the | structural observations, or a more functional equivalency? | | You could say an ocean is like a desert in that they are vast | and empty with respect to surface structures observed by a | human traveller, but obviously from a functional | /environmental perspective the two almost couldn't be more | dissimilar | achrono wrote: | No, your self-appellation aside, you are not missing anything | unless there is some really secret 'nuance' hidden in the | paper. | | If the triune brain model _was_ completely false (as stated by | the caricature of "brain is not an onion with a tiny | reptile"), it would not be straightforward to even identify the | neocortex -- how do you know it is 'neo', _what_ is it a 'neo' | of and so on? | | So the fact that we can meaningfully talk about these areas of | the brain suggests that there is in fact continuity and | building-upon happening in our evolutionary journey, although | of course it's not like the cartoon they show (which I have | never seen before from anyone seriously talking about this | topic, I might add). | tiberious726 wrote: | It's not TFA's actual thesis, but here's a _much_ more powerful | rebuttal of the triune brain and similar mental models if | you're interested (from the perspective of what is the sheer | idea of rationality) Matthew Boyle's "Tack-on Theories of | Rationality": | https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/8641840/Additive... | rexpop wrote: | > we have a basal ganglia which evolved from reptiles | | And do living reptiles, today, not also "have a basal ganglia | which evolved from reptiles?" seems we've a name collision, | here. Perhaps we should refer to our ancestors as "proto- | reptiles," or else our contemporaneous cousins as "post- | reptiles" whose brains have had just as many years' time to | depart from our common reptilique ancestor. | nextaccountic wrote: | We're reptiles (as are all mammals, all birds, etc). | | My understanding of that is that all reptiles have a basal | ganglia, because it was inherited from the common ancestor of | reptiles. | | And non-reptiles don't have a basal ganglia because _their_ | ancestors didn 't have one. | dillydogg wrote: | What? Mammals appear in a separate branch of amniotes apart | from Reptiles/Birds/Crocodilians | | Mammals and reptiles share a common ancestor with an | ancient amniote, not a reptile | gowld wrote: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synapsid | | > Synapsids[a] are one of the two major clades of | vertebrate animals that evolved from basal amniotes, the | other being the sauropsids, which include reptiles | (turtles, crocodilians and lepidosaurs) and birds. | | > the only extant group that survived into the Cenozoic | are the mammals. | | > The animals (basal amniotes) from which non-mammalian | synapsids evolved were traditionally called "reptiles". | | > It is now known that all extant animals traditionally | called "reptiles" are more closely related to each other | than to synapsids, so the word "reptile" has been re- | defined to mean only members of Sauropsida (bird-line | Amniota) or even just an under-clade thereof | csours wrote: | > "The triune brain hypothesis doesn't seem "wrong", it just | seems like a simple categorization that is useful to the | layperson." | | Yes. Anything this simple will be wrong. Almost everything you | learn in school before graduate level courses will be wrong. | Most of it won't matter to you unless you start working in that | field. | nuancebydefault wrote: | [1] is a nice book that explains in the first chapter why all | science is wrong and gets replaced by a less wrong model, in | steps. In fact the author argues that all those wrong models | are perfectly fine and usable, for their period of time and | applications. | | [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_Is_Not_What_It_Seems | dragonwriter wrote: | > Almost everything you learn in school before graduate level | courses will be wrong. | | From what I understand, in many fields its pretty clear that | most of the stuff in graduate courses is, too, its just that | then next step _toward_ right is less clear and more disputed | than for the earlier wrong stuff. | KMag wrote: | "All models are wrong, but some are useful" - George Box | xg15 wrote: | > _and 3) that evolution modifies existing brain structures in | addition to adding new layers._ | | As I understood it, their point was that evolution does _not_ | add new layers, evolution of the brain always happens by | modifying the existing structure. | | Which is why a "stratified" view of the brain with evolutionary | older layers near the center and newer layers near the surface | is incorrect. | | The implications of this belief then led to incorrect | assumptions about both humans and (non-human) animals: That the | human brain is an "animal brain plus something else" and | therefore automatically superior - and inversely that animal | brains are "human brains minus something" and therefore | automatically inferior. The article argues against both | positions. | [deleted] | crazygringo wrote: | Is the neocortex not an outer layer? That is not present in | reptiles? So how is the stratified model incorrect as a high- | level structural categorization? | | The triune model doesn't claim our brain grows additively in | rings like trees. It's merely an observation about the | primary evolutionary origins of the _three_ parts. Just those | three. | | And the superior/inferior characterization is not part of the | triune model. You are free to interpret it that way if you | want, but it's not part of it, so it's not a rebuttal. | shevis wrote: | > Is the neocortex not an outer layer? | | It seems like this is what they are refuting. It is not so | much a new layer as it is an evolution of existing | structure. | crazygringo wrote: | Of course it's a layer. It's a layer that itself is made | up of 6 sublayers. This is not up for debate: | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocortex | | It clearly states: | | > _The six-layer cortex appears to be a distinguishing | feature of mammals; it has been found in the brains of | all mammals, but not in any other animals._ | | What it evolved _out_ of is entirely irrelevant -- | everything evolves out of something else in some fashion. | civilitty wrote: | While the neocortex does have distinct layers, the | neocortex itself is not "layered" around the rest of the | brain - it's deeply integrated all over the place with | the rest of the brain and nervous system. There is no | hierarchical relationship between the neocortex and | different systems it integrates with. | | The reptilian equivalent to the neocortex is the dorsal | ventricular ridge which evolved separately and in | parallel. This presents two problems to the hypothesis: | first the much simpler DVR serves much of the same | purpose as the neocortex which was completely unknown at | the time and second the most interesting bird species | (the smartest ones) often don't have an equivalent | structure at all. There isn't even a clear relationship | between intelligence, complexity, evolutionary age, etc. | After 250 million years of evolution any similarities are | accidents of random convergence. | xg15 wrote: | > _Is the neocortex not an outer layer? That is not present | in reptiles? So how is the stratified model incorrect as a | high-level structural categorization?_ | | Not sure about reptiles, but the author write this about | mammals: | | > _Neurobiologists do not debate whether any cortical | regions are evolutionarily newer in some mammals than | others. To be clear, even the prefrontal cortex, a region | associated with reason and action planning, is not a | uniquely human structure. Although there is debate | concerning the relative size of the prefrontal cortex in | humans compared with nonhuman animals (Passingham & Smaers, | 2014; Sherwood, Bauernfeind, Bianchi, Raghanti, & Hof, | 2012; Teffer & Semendeferi, 2012), all mammals have a | prefrontal cortex._ | | I also read some interesting papers a few years ago about | corvids - particular New Caledonian Crows: Those animals do | not have a neocortex and hence were thought incapable of | many higher-level cognitive tasks, such as planning, tool | use, etc. Turned out the crows were in fact capable of | them. One hypothesis I read suggested that, as crow brains | are structured differently, another structure may have | taken the role that the neocortex has in humans. | | So even if it's an anatomical distinction, it's an | unreliable indicator of mental capacity. | crazygringo wrote: | OK, but again -- none of that refutes the triune brain | hypothesis at all. | | Literally nobody is claiming that only humans have | neocortexes. | | Nor is anyone claiming it's an indicator of mental | _capacity_. The recent discoveries about crows were | interesting, but that doesn 't have anything to do with | the fact that the neocortex in mammals plays a | particular, functional, well-recognized role. | theptip wrote: | The refutation is of the idea that it's a strictly | chronological layering, with the old layers inside and | intact. | | The correct view is that while the neocortex is indeed | mostly new, the "older" more central structures were | modified throughout evolution. | JohnAaronNelson wrote: | No one thinks the older structures are static. No one is | arguing that. It's a simplified model about the origin. | | This argument is akin to saying we're not "newer" apes | ala | | > The refutation is of the idea that it's a strictly | chronological ordering of species, with the old species | still inside and intact. The correct view is that while | homosapiens are indeed mostly "newer", the "older" apes | were also modified throughout evolution | | Obviously. | theptip wrote: | I mean... the quote from TFA that they are arguing | against is | | > As Paul MacLean (1964), originator of the triune-brain | theory, stated, | | >> man, it appears, has inherited essentially three | brains. Frugal Nature in developing her paragon threw | nothing away. The oldest of his brains is basically | reptilian; the second has been inherited from lower | mammals; and the third and newest brain is a late | mammalian development which reaches a pinnacle in man and | gives him his unique power of symbolic language. | | And they quote other textbooks that are making claims | along these lines too; this is right at the beginning of | TFA. So I think you are wrong that "no one thinks that". | | Of course they don't think the old brains are 100% static | but there are claims that they are largely conserved. | lukeasrodgers wrote: | - The superior/inferior characterize actually is part of | the triune model, Maclean's book is replete with language | like "advanced" vs "primitive". | | - The point of the criticism is not that the neocortex is | not a "layer" at all, but that it is not the case that if | you were to remove the neocortex layer, you would | essentially get the brain of a lower-order animal--but this | is what is implied by the triune theory. | Terr_ wrote: | Also, it's not clear why we should accept that the brain | would develop with locked-in "old strata" to a degree that we | do not see in all sorts of other organs and systems. | | As much as people joke about having a separate stomach for | ice-cream, I've never heard anyone suggest that their "lizard | stomach" would handle certain foods. | dahfizz wrote: | Because the brain physically, anatomically, has these "old | strata". Lizard brains are pretty much just a basal | ganglia. Humans have a basal ganglia, and then extra stuff | on top. Mammals, and only mammals, have a neocortex | "strata" to their brain as well. | | I am not qualified to argue for or against the Triune | brain, but it seems easy to see why the brain is different | from the stomach in this regard. | Terr_ wrote: | > Because the brain physically, anatomically, has these | "old strata". [...] Humans have a basal ganglia, and then | extra stuff on top. | | IMO the key is distinguishing between these two ideas: | | 1. There is a gross anatomical structure that can be | linked to ancient ancestors with certain characteristics. | | 2. Those structures in living creatures are somehow "not | really modern" or are unusually tied to the needs or | limitations of those ancient ancestors. | | Consider your fingers: They originate from fin-bones ~380 | million years ago, yet (unlike "lizard brain") nobody | talks about possessing "fish fingers" except as a fried | food product. We also don't create narratives explaining | our finger operations or design in terms of what ancient | fish required or were capable of. | snek_case wrote: | In addition to this... Sure, evolution modifies existing | structures, but if you compare a cat's heart and stomach | to a pig heart and stomach, the difference is not that | big, even though the nearest evolutionary ancestor was | tens (hundreds?) of millions of years ago. Once a | structure is in place and works well, you can certainly | tweak it, but it's easier to mostly just keep it. | | Humans have a neocortex, but if you play with a cat or | dog, you can recognize and understand the emotions they | are feeling. Fear, anger, joy, anxiety, relaxation, etc. | That suggests the structures responsible for those things | in us are probably not that different from them. | civilitty wrote: | Agreed. Mammals don't even have the same metabolic strategy | as reptiles - we're endothermic while reptiles can't even | self regulate body temperature. Other systems fundamental | to life like our reproductive strategies are also | completely different. | | The idea that major organs are strictly conserved over _250 | million years_ while something as fundamental as | homeostasis drastically diverges is frankly a bit wackadoo. | [deleted] | hn8305823 wrote: | I thought the line art evolution images were from Carl Sagan's | original Cosmos series, but it looks like they are slightly | different: | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZpsVSVRsZk | | The drawing of humans is from the Pioneer Plaque which Sagan was | involved with: | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_plaque | DueDilligence wrote: | [dead] | JoeAltmaier wrote: | This is an example of an article that claims to debunk something | that nobody said. | | Anyway it was informative and clarified things nicely. Just wish | it had a better lead. | mrkeen wrote: | > article that claims to debunk something that nobody said | | About a third of the article was dedicated to who said it and | when: | | >> As Paul MacLean (1964), originator of the triune-brain | theory, stated: man, it appears, has inherited essentially | three brains. | | >> This belief, although widely shared and stated as fact in | psychology textbooks, lacks any foundation in evolutionary | biology. | | >> The most widely used introductory textbook in psychology | states that: ... The brain's increasing complexity arises from | new brain systems built on top of the old, much as the Earth's | landscape covers the old with the new. Digging down, one | discovers the fossil remnants of the past | | >> we sampled 20 introductory psychology textbooks published | between 2009 and 2017. Of the 14 that mention brain evolution, | 86% contained at least one inaccuracy along the lines described | above. | | >> For example, Dijksterhuis and Bargh (2001), [...] write | that: when new species develop, this is done by adding new | brain parts to existing old ones | | >> Examples of MacLean model of brain evolution appear in other | areas, including models of personality (Epstein, 1994), | attention (Mirsky & Duncan, 2002), psychopathology (Cory & | Gardner, 2002), market economics (Cory, 2002), and morality | (Narvaez, 2008). Nonacademic examples are too numerous to fully | review. | | >> Carl Sagan's (1978) Pulitzer Prize-winning book, The Dragons | of Eden, and Steven Johnson's (2005) Mind Wide Open were both | popular books that drew heavily on this idea | mistermann wrote: | If the authors are going to classify colloquial language (3 | brains) as literal, their own study is then open to the same | attack, and there is _plenty_ of material from even the short | skim of it I did. | | "Pedantry" is a double edged sword. | JoeAltmaier wrote: | has inherited essentially three brains. | | fossile remnants | | The quoted text give lie to the title. Nobody said it was an | onion etc. Just that it was built new structures on old, all | changing, integrated more or less well. | | Not being pedantic, I don't think? The title is disparaging, | deconstructing the idea to the point of ridicule. It's | reasonable to say "Nobody said that!" | OhNoNotAgain_99 wrote: | [dead] | ivanhoe wrote: | So now we've learned what brain is not - but what is the | biologically/evolutionary correct model that explains the | opposite impulses that we all are dealing with? And why some of | those impulses need willpower and grow weaker under the influence | of stress/alcohol/drugs, while others seem to grow stronger? | sdwr wrote: | Three-brain structure (Freud's id, ego, superego) is still the | best simple explanation I know. Maybe the physical reality is a | bit different, but it partitions actions so nicely. | | Id - base impulses, bubble up automatically and subconsciously | | Ego - the self, the "me". Where the story of identity comes | from, what gets judged in court. | | Superego - rules imposed from on high that restrict behavior | | ----- | | I think "opposite impulses" can be explained as a form of self- | control. Let's say I see someone I'm attracted to, but want to | maintain composure and stay in a neutral stance. Left to my own | devices I'll flush, and my eyes will widen, maybe I'll get | clumsy. Bringing an opposite-but-aligned emotion in maintains | equilibrium (anger, disgust...) | | I see opposite-but-aligned impulses with my dog all the time. | He knows I don't like him chasing squirrels. When he sees one, | he gets activated + alert, but redirects his energy into | running a few paces the other way. It's a bridge between the id | (Go! Chase!) and the superego (Stay calm, don't pull!) | robertlagrant wrote: | I never understood why the superego isn't me. | mrkeen wrote: | You don't need to. 'Superego' is an invention. You could | invent your own abstract idea and call it you. Or you could | simply declare that the superego is you. | robertlagrant wrote: | I mean in the construct of ego/id/superego, why is the | "ego" me and not the "superego"? | sdwr wrote: | Superego is what you are supposed to do, id is what you | want, and ego is where they meet in the middle. | | If you are identifying with the superego, maybe you are | in a situation where you more "have to"s than "want to"s? | arrosenberg wrote: | It probably makes sense to think about it as base-me and | societally-influenced-me. | csours wrote: | The problem is that the world does not owe you simple | explanations. | cperciva wrote: | All models are wrong, but some models are useful. | | Asking if the model is wrong is asking the wrong question; the | important question is whether it's useful. | robertlagrant wrote: | It's useful for padding a chapter or two into self-help books, | if nothing else. | fieldbob wrote: | Donald hoffman says something exactly like that in this talk. | David Bohm came the same conclusion science will never fully | figure it out the answer is much spiritual and imaginative | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rafVevceWgs&t=5117s&pp=ygUVZ... | | Why? because ultimately we are talking about a empty field of | space propagated by light, similar to holograms. Things that | grow here things that stem from this world do you think they | really are what they appear to be? Of course not. So what are | they god damnit? perhaps its better to not answer the question | and like a good old mystic leave it be and open a portal to | another dimension and have this experience for one self | mistermann wrote: | The errors/issues here are _much_ higher in the stack than | what Hoffman and Bohm are getting that at the levels you | note, though Bohm in addition to that also spoke a lot about | language and communication (which _is_ an important part of | the issue here). | OhNoNotAgain_99 wrote: | [dead] | derefr wrote: | I feel like the "lizard brain" thought-paradigm _can_ actually be | understood as communicating something true /useful/important... | but it'll only make sense to people with a good understanding of | "speciated evolution": namely, evolutionary biologists | themselves; and software engineers who've worked with programming | languages that use prototypical inheritance. Outside of those two | groups, the actual "intuition" for what the claim is saying, gets | lost. | | The "lizard brain" claim, as far as I understand it, was never | that you have a complete copy of a "lower" brain inside your | brain. Nor even that you have specific structures within your | brain whose _implementation_ was evolutionarily conserved. | | Rather, what I understand the "lizard brain" claim as trying to | communicate, is that you have one or more _components_ of the | architecture of your brain, where the _APIs_ presented by those | components to the rest of the brain, have been mostly conserved | throughout evolution. The components themselves may have | internally evolved, but the structural boundaries between those | components and the rest of your brain have stayed stable in a way | that allows biologists to recognize those same _components_ in | the architectures of brains in vastly different species. | | To put that in concrete terms: you and a mantis shrimp both have | e.g. "an amygdala." The gene code for "an amygdala" may have | differentiated between the shrimp and you, but there's still a | conserved part of the brain's architectural plan that says "put | an amygdala here." | | Now for the overwrought OOP analogy: | | If you imagine HumanBrain as an OOP class, then it's an OOP class | that is a subclass about 800 layers of inheritance deep; with the | root of the inheritance hierarchy being some prototypical | bilateral-vertebrate nerve-cord class. | | In this inheritance hierarchy, each layer can introduce new | "features" -- components of the brain that have specific APIs; in | other words, members of the class with known interface types, | that other parts of the class can have their _implementations_ -- | but not their own APIs -- altered to work in terms of. | | Under this mental [heh] model, the "lizard brain" claim isn't | about the LizardBrain level of the hierarchy itself; but rather | is that one or more brain _features_ seen in the HumanBrain | class, are features that were introduced _in or around_ the | LizardBrain level of the inheritance hierarchy, and whose APIs | have _stayed stable_ ever since. | | (Also, if you're wondering if any real-world computer software | has ever done 800-layer-deep inheritance hierarchies such that it | starts to actually reflect this kind of speciated evolution: yes! | The programming of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LambdaMOO was | exactly like that. Why? Because, unlike a regular codebase, but | _like_ evolution, LambdaMOO was a gradual accretion of private | objects "owned" by amateur coders, where each dev would | implement the features they cared about by finding someone else's | object with that feature, and forking it [i.e. prototype- | inheriting from it] to suit their own needs. There was no common | codebase that anyone could refactor, so it gradually came to | resemble an actual biological process.) | quickthrower2 wrote: | I can't help but think of Win32 APIs from what you describe. Or | similarly that "teletype" is a thing in 2023. | [deleted] | dboreham wrote: | Countering a widely held intuitive model by...asserting loudly | and repeatedly that it's incorrect, while providing no supporting | evidence. | nemo wrote: | It's surreal to see so may people reading the article with this | takeaway, the "What's Wrong" section seemed very clear to me | and elaborated for a while including a number of citations on | why the simplistic layer model was flawed. | | > providing no supporting evidence | | I checked, there's seventeen separate citations for evidence in | the "What's Wrong" section as well as several figures. | 3seashells wrote: | The what watches from those eyes who can not see and see anyway? | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsight | Octokiddie wrote: | > Does it matter if psychologists have an incorrect understanding | of neural evolution? One answer to this question is simple: We | are scientists. We are supposed to care about true states of the | world even in the absence of practical consequences. If | psychologists have an incorrect understanding of neural | evolution, they should be motivated to correct the misconception | even if this incorrect belief does not impact their research | programs. | | The hallmark of an incorrect model in science is that it makes | incorrect predictions about the natural world (experiment). What | incorrect predictions has psychology made based on the incorrect | triune-brain theory? | | I'm going to guess zero, not because the model works, but because | psychology has made no experimentally testable predictions based | on it. | robg wrote: | The biggest I've seen is that talk therapies don't work well if | an underlying sleep concern is not addressed. Sleep as the | parasympathetic nervous system is predictable from a more | primitive model whereas a cognitive - behavioral model assumes | thoughts can drive recovery. | speak_plainly wrote: | The goal of cognitive science is to basically build the | foundation (the understanding of how the brain works) that | psychology lacks and is a field that psychologists are actively | contributing to. | | Ultimately, psychology was created as a pragmatic branch of | philosophy with the understanding that we would not know how | the brain works for quite some time but that we could still do | something of value and help people. | corethree wrote: | Not just psychology. Even the claims within this very paper are | hard to test. Anything involving evolution is almost impossible | to test. The "science" is mostly observational and descriptive | and arrived at through logical guesses. | | If all of "science" involved strict rigor to the "scientific | method" we'd have none of the social sciences like anthropology | or evolutionary psychology. | | This paper is simply pointing out differences in view points. | | I think the general idea in psychology is real though, the | paper gets into details which is a bit pedantic. In fact the | paper literally states that they are all in agreement that all | brains evolved from a common ancestor. This would be the | "reptile" and for sure common features in our brain such as | serotonin stem from this "reptile" brain. | | Psychology gets a lot of bad rep for the reproduction crisis, | but evolution should largely be worse because we can't | experimentally verify anything without time travel. | | So it's not like this paper is about true science defeating | pseudo science. It's all really speculative. | zeroCalories wrote: | Psychology can barely make any predictions. This isn't a | meaningless technicality like the not-to-scale diagram of atoms | used in old textbooks. Correcting poor assumptions to find new | models of understanding is still important in this field. | mannykannot wrote: | I think there's a good chance you are right, but academically- | minded people have a tendency to hastily dismiss hypotheses | that run counter to what they believe is a correct theory. I | can imagine someone dismissing the idea that a psychological | pathology is related to a neurological one because the latter | is in the "wrong" part of the brain for the symptoms the former | presents. | [deleted] | kbenson wrote: | > The hallmark of an incorrect model in science is that it | makes incorrect predictions about the natural world | (experiment). | | Sure, if you are insular and only care about how it affects the | field and other scientists. | | Sometimes these incorrect models are incorrect in ways that are | really attractive from a narrative standpoint. The hallmark of | _those_ models is to be used to spawn hundreds of pop science | books that expound on those models in unfounded ways and push | people into useless behavior, sometimes at a societal level. | | Maybe scientists and psychologists aren't using the idea of a | lizard brain in experiments and current theories, but I know | there's at least some laypeople people that use it as a way to | explain their behavior or make assumptions about other people's | behavior, or to form their own ad-hoc explanations and models | of behavior based on poor understanding of even what was | previously reported to them. I would hazard it's actually more | than some, and a lot of people do it, with this or some other | poorly reported incorrect model of behavior or how the body | works or how the world works. | | Incorrect knowledge should be corrected. Leaving it it as it is | leads to myriad problems, small and large, eventually. | JacobThreeThree wrote: | Well said. Just because it may be hard to pin down the | consequences of the wrong-but-attractive narrative, there | probably are consequences, especially on the long term. | | The "chemical imbalance" narrative with depression is also | probably wrong: https://theconversation.com/depression-is- | probably-not-cause... | | Is it really so surprising that these simplistic narratives | don't actually accurately describe how the brain works? We | should be prepared to admit that the brain is complicated and | we don't really know it's functioning at a fundamental level. | KRAKRISMOTT wrote: | Most of psychology can't be _ethically_ tested. It doesn 't | mean the entirely field is not empirically verifiable. | edgyquant wrote: | It means it hasn't been verified, which means you can't be | sure a lot of it is useful at all. | corethree wrote: | Scientific rigor has it's limits. Certain fields need to | make intuitive leaps of speculation. | | For example the entire field of astronomy is basically | unverifiable bullshit. It's all speculation. We make | guesses on what's going on with the stars outside of our | solar system from twinkling light that comes from light | years away. | | Any science to verify the claims made by astronomy with the | amount of rigor you demand would involve light speed space | ships to go to those stars and verify. | | If we could do this I think you'd find a ton of astronomy | would be flat out wrong. | | Nonetheless the field is still useful and legitimate | despite the high likelihood a lot of it is wrong and | despite the fact we can't verify much. | pc86 wrote: | Is there a reasonable distinction between "it's not possible | to test $X" and "it's not possible to test $X in any ethical | way?" | john-radio wrote: | Yes | | edit: I was trying to jokingly reply "Yes {smiling-imp- | emoji}" when I realized I've never seen an emoji on Hacker | News before - looks like they get automatically removed! | blowski wrote: | Perhaps one distinction would be that ethics change across | time and country. So it might be possible to run a test in | 2020s UK that cannot be repeated in 2030s. | [deleted] | MichaelZuo wrote: | That doesn't prevent modern researchers from using past data | collected via less scrupulous means though. e.g. Pavlov's | experiments | robg wrote: | Especially since the master reptile - the adrenal cortex - is | located atop the kidneys. Fight or flight is first an electrical | relay to the hands and feet and heart. The brain in the skull and | consciousness reflects upon what's already happening in the | periphery. | Cpoll wrote: | > The brain in the skull and consciousness reflects upon what's | already happening in the periphery. | | I've read summaries of these studies as well, but... the | adrenal cortex doesn't have any sensory-processing facilities, | right? In the end it's the brain that informs the adrenal | gland? | ozim wrote: | It is also super important for everyone to understand that. | Because our body is not "brain -> body control" most of stuff | just happens and brain reacts. | | For overall health it is also important to understand that body | needs movement and all neural pathways are also somewhat | independent and also contain "intelligence". | | I am not neurobiologist so hope I am not going into mumbo-jumbo | too much but I workout at the gym quite often and can observe | over-training or how muscles often could still work but your | neural pathways are done and you cannot hold the weight even if | muscle/tendons feel quite fine on its own. | | It is also quite common knowledge as I read on the internet | stuff on training. | | So in the end I don't feel body-mind separation is useful as | much and thinking that your whole body is also ones mind is | super important. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-09-18 23:00 UTC)