[HN Gopher] Language was born in the hands (2022) ___________________________________________________________________ Language was born in the hands (2022) Author : keepamovin Score : 49 points Date : 2023-09-29 08:47 UTC (2 days ago) (HTM) web link (cosmosmagazine.com) (TXT) w3m dump (cosmosmagazine.com) | fmajid wrote: | So how does this explain how whales, dolphins or parrots have | language despite no hands? | empath-nirvana wrote: | It's stretch to call what any of them have a "language". | tlavoie wrote: | I think that your statement is more of a stretch, than the | idea that quite intelligent, social creatures aren't using a | language that we simply don't understand. | | I'd love to know what the local ravens are saying to each | other; there is quite the variety of calls, and quite | situational. | og_kalu wrote: | We have known for decades now that bottlenose dolphins | understand language, and I mean the regularities that | distinguish it from ordinary communication because we tested | them with an artificially constructed one. And I mean tested | comprehension rather than production. Lot easier to write off | results of the latter. | | The idea then that these highly social animals have the | ability to understand an artificially constructed language | but don't use one naturally is _highly_ suspect. Especially | when everything we can observe indicates it. https://www.scie | ncedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/001002... | | "Comprehension, at levels far above chance, was shown for all | of the sentence forms and sentence meanings that could be | generated by the lexicon and the set of syntactic rules, and | included the understanding of: (a) lexically novel sentences; | (b) structurally novel sentences; (c) semantically reversible | sentences that expressed relationships between objects; (d) | sentences in which changes in modifier position changed | sentence meaning; and (e) conjoined sentences (Phoenix). | Additional abilities demonstrated included a broad and | immediate generalization of the lexical items to different | exemplars of objects; an ability to modulate the form of | response to given action words, in order to apply the action | appropriately to new objects, to different object attributes, | or to different object locations; an ability to carry out | instructions correctly despite changes in the context or | location in which a sentence was given, or in the trainer | providing the instructions; an ability to distinguish between | different relational concepts; an ability to respond | correctly to sentences given with no objects present in the | tank until 30 seconds after the instruction was given | (displacement tests); and an ability to report correctly that | the particular object designated in a sentence was in fact | not present in the tank, although all other objects were | (Akeakamai). | | ...... | | The comprehension approach used was a radical departure from | the emphasis on language production in studies of the | linguistic abilities of apes; the result obtained offer the | first convincing evidence of the ability of animals to | process both semantic and syntactic features of sentences. " | gizmo686 wrote: | It doesn't attempt to. To the extent that | whales/dolphins/parrots have language, it evolved independently | from human language. There is no particular reason to assume it | evolved along the same path. | webnrrd2k wrote: | Good point about dolphins ans whales, but, if you've ever | watched parrots, they have feet and a beak/tongue that can | grasp and manipulate in a way that's analogous to human hands. | thfuran wrote: | The same way it explains the unification of quantum mechanics | and general relativity. | underlipton wrote: | My layman's take is that TFA is probably wrong and that | language started with song. Gestures are probably the origin of | _communication_ (see also: speakers of non-mutually- | intelligible languages tend to instinctively make gestures, | often created on-the-fly to mimic some intended meaning or | desire), but _language_ is different. Meaning in language is | encoded in a mutually-intelligible format that is passed down | memetically rather than genetically (which is why you see | different "accents" in genetically-similar but geographically- | separated populations in all of the aforementioned species). We | instinctively recognize the resemblance between a given gesture | and the object or action it's mimicking, but the meaning of | language (like the connotation of particular elements of song, | like note progression, which again varies between cultures) has | to be acquired. | | Again, speaking out of my a*. Feel free to tear apart. | [deleted] | hadlock wrote: | Was this written by someone without kids? In early childhood | development pointing at items is referred to as "shared | thinking". If a lion is charging at you in the jungle and you | point at it the shared thought is "danger! He's coming to eat | us!" or general concept. | | Alternatively if you're playing with your 8 month old nephew and | point at the red ball, he'll grab it and give it to you. If you | wait four more months and say "ball" he'll do the same thing. | Both approaches work but pointing with your hands comes much, | much earlier in the development process. | garba_dlm wrote: | another perspective to the shared thinking is that if a lion is | charging at you in the jungle, there very first thing isn't | conceptual; it's just fear which will immediately coordinate | any mammals in the group to run or prepare to fight. | | I say this because I know some dogs are able to learn the ball | thing too, oh and the fear thing is part of how i communicate | with my dog. | thfuran wrote: | So should we expect that human ancestors had fragile, unfused | skulls and no ability to move themselves around? | drekipus wrote: | Probably, when they were very little | Borrible wrote: | There was a time when "grasping" something was a literal thing. | Strangely enough, however, I only became aware of this when I | studied Hegel and some even more obscure texts from Friedrich | Engels about Darwin and the importance of the hand for human | evolution.Probably his 'Dialectics of Nature'. | [deleted] | jonahbenton wrote: | Reminds me of the most interesting (to me) of the Huberman Lab | episodes I listened to, the one with Dr Erich Jarvis, at | Rockefeller, about speech, language and movement eg dance. The | description doesn't do the content justice. Fully mind blowing. | drekipus wrote: | Interesting anacdote, my wife is into teaching our 1 year old | sign language. Many words and phrases come through much faster | than they do verbally. Words for "finished" "more" "water" etc. | | Really help in figuring out what she wants. And she squeals with | delight when she feels understood. | 28304283409234 wrote: | "Clan of the Cavebear"? This is not a new theory. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-10-01 23:00 UTC)