[HN Gopher] Show HN: An app store just for installable web apps ___________________________________________________________________ Show HN: An app store just for installable web apps Author : presson Score : 152 points Date : 2023-10-05 18:50 UTC (4 hours ago) (HTM) web link (store.app) (TXT) w3m dump (store.app) | jollyllama wrote: | Where can I learn about making these, specifically for offline | use? | spacec0wb0y wrote: | https://web.dev/progressive-web-apps/ | explain wrote: | This UI is so hot. | presson wrote: | Thank you! :-) | tacoship wrote: | Sweet domain! Was it expensive? | | Feedback: The home page's horizontal carousels/reels lack | trackpad scrolling functionality. Interaction is limited to the | arrow buttons on the side. To enhance user experience, it would | be beneficial to make them scrollable via trackpad, similar to | the Apple Store website.[0] | | [0] https://www.apple.com/store | bgoldste wrote: | Asking the important questions. | dylan604 wrote: | I'm going through this very thing now. I'm focused on getting | the backend features working, but getting pressure to make | the tiny tweaks to the UI. Once you open the UI to actual | users, priorities quickly get rearranged. The UI complaints | are the punch in the "everyone has a game plan until they get | punched in the face" phrase. | presson wrote: | Thank you! It was pricey, but not as bad as it could've been. I | pre-ordered it a month before .app became available as a TLD, | and bought it on the first day of availability (May 2018!). | I've been planning on building this for some time :-P | | Re carousel feedback - thank you! We've talked about this but | have been prioritizing some other features ahead of it. That | said, your feedback helps us prioritize higher. Keep the | feedback coming, the more the better! Also if you want to | connect offline, lmk. | dylan604 wrote: | Just to 2nd it. I came to the comments first, but after | visiting the site, it does feel unnatural. Also to pile on, | having to multi-click the next button one at a time per app | feels tedious. | | Seeing how you are at this stage though, color me very | impressed. I've just never paid attention to PWAs, so seeing | them available like this gave me a totally different | (positive) consideration for them. I would love to see | numbers of use just to see how widely used PWAs are. This | isn't an idea for the UI for popularity per app, but just for | PWA in general. Just in terms of if this is something I | should be considering. Great job and good luck! | presson wrote: | Noted, and thank you! | coder543 wrote: | I like the concept a lot, but I also think it should filter to | _only_ installable apps by default. If you detect a user is on a | mobile device, it would probably also make sense to enable the | mobile filter by default too. | | It would also be nice if there was an offline-capable filter as | well, but maybe I missed it? | | I also notice the Developer tab is not part of the PWA, which | kicks you out of the PWA experience on iOS, even though it seems | like that marketing page could be contained within the tab? It | might also be nice to link to resources for getting started on | developing a high quality PWA, if any resources like that exist. | | Now that PWAs on iOS can finally show notifications (if the user | wants), I hope more developers will take them seriously. I trust | browser isolation more than I trust native app isolation, and a | lot of the native apps that I use would work perfectly as a PWA. | presson wrote: | Thank you, this is great feedback. What to show and when has | been an ongoing convo - we chose to evolve this based on supply | side milestones. Keep an eye out for some cool updates :-). We | don't yet have the ability to filter by offline-capable, but | that's a great idea. Re the dev tab, this is a work in progress | - right now a few things are split apart, but we'll be folding | everything back together at some point. | | Re notifications, 100% agree - this was a major roadblock. The | next few years are going to be very interesting :-P | matsz wrote: | > PWAs on iOS can finally show notifications | | This has been such a great addition, once it was officially | added I've quickly built a small web app that can now | distribute notifications to all my devices effortlessly, with a | single codebase and with no need to pay the dreaded $99/yr | subscription. Haven't released that publicly but I might at | some point once I clean up the mess that inevitably resulted | from me writing it in around 2 hours. | kyleee wrote: | Did you use a framework or anything? I've been working on a | small vite/vue/nuxt PWA and I've been wondering about other | options | matsz wrote: | Just React and fastify. I have my own authentication | library that makes things easier but it's not production | ready yet. | collaborative wrote: | I really hope your store takes off. I will say a prayer or two to | this end. May your good character flourish and may you avoid all | temptations that come with gatekeeping | | Apple and Google's app stores are death. They motivated me to re- | code my c and java-based iOS and Android apps in js+wasm | (SPA/PWA) from scratch. For a long time, I announced it with its | proper name ("PWA"). I became very frustrated every time I | interacted with users who asked "what does that mean?". So now | it's simply "Web Version" | presson wrote: | Thank you! We have a very strong ethos around democratizing | distribution and we plan to be careful not to go down a path to | becoming what we hate. We're here to serve developers and | users, and we'll look for guidance from our user base | constantly. Re "PWA" I can empathize - I've found that for the | majority of people, "installable web app" seems to register | more effectively, but hoping that "PWA" becomes more broadly | understood. Thanks again for the comment, and we look forward | to serving you :-) | matsemann wrote: | I'm surprised by how much easier and faster this is than | installing an app from Google Play. No ads above what I really | searched for. Installation is basically instantaneous. | raybb wrote: | I love it! Please consider adding openlibrary.org which has a PWA | already. | presson wrote: | Thank you! Added to our backlog - will be added soon! | presson wrote: | Listing is now live! :-) | ledbettj wrote: | Pretty cool! I tried to list my app but the screenshot upload | doesn't seem to work -- it won't accept any files I've tried via | drag/drop in Chrome or Firefox. I've been able to upload files to | other sites without any issue (running Linux). | presson wrote: | Thank you for the feedback, we're looking into this. In the | meantime, you should be able to upload from your files if the | images have the correct aspect ratio. If you continue to have | issues, ping me at support@store.app and we'll make sure | everything gets sorted out. | ledbettj wrote: | Actually, it's my own fault -- I assumed the area in the | preview that said I hadn't uploaded any images yet was the | drop target, but it's not, that's over in the sidebar. | Cheers! | presson wrote: | Ohhh gotcha - that's still good feedback, though - we will | try to make that more intuitive! | tomaszs wrote: | Congrats. That is a project of the future! | presson wrote: | Thank you! :-) | simonbarker87 wrote: | Very nice, one issue is that (on Safari iOS 16) when I navigate | back to the list my scroll position is forgotten, I could | understand when using my browser back button but I used the one | in the UI so I'd expect it to remember the scroll position. | | Beyond that nitpick though this is excellent, well done. | presson wrote: | Noted! Thank you for the feedback and the kind words! :-) | tamimio wrote: | I love it, maybe finally developers will no longer be under the | mercy of apple/google store! Probably the only thing PWA fails to | do now that anything needs access to the hardware say | wifi/Bluetooth scanner and such, and big games too, the rest of | the apps, I don't see why it needs to be installed from app/play | store. | presson wrote: | Thank you! That's our hope. The open web is making some major | strides, so the next few years will certainly be interesting | :-) | JanSt wrote: | Chrome offers bluetooth support, doesn't it? | hunter2_ wrote: | It's in this list [0], indeed. | | [0] https://permission.site | matsz wrote: | Really good idea, what I'd suggest would be a separate Open | Source category/tag. And a dark theme (based on prefers-color- | scheme). | | Also, submitted a developer application; have released a few PWAs | myself - hope to post them there too! | presson wrote: | Awesome, thanks for the feedback! That's a great idea - I've | posted it in our internal channel. Also, you should have been | approved for a dev account - we're excited to have you onboard! | Please feel free to let us know how we can help - our mission | is to help web devs grow their business. | matsz wrote: | Thanks, works well - just one small bit of feedback there: | wish there were some hints on aspect ratios for the | screenshots (or they should be displayed at the image's | aspect ratio). Currently the sides get cut off: | https://store.app/drop-lol | | Also, would be nice to have a "more by this developer" | section. (Or any other "similar to" recommendation section.) | jshchnz wrote: | this is real cool, and nice domain | presson wrote: | Thank you! :-) | xnx wrote: | Darn. Was really hoping this was something like a more universal | version of the "Deploy to Heroku" buttons | (https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/heroku-button) | soperj wrote: | Nice! I attempted adding my webapp. Do you have a template that I | could add to my site (ie: add our app)? | presson wrote: | Awesome! Were you able to add it successfully? We have a widget | that you'll find under your claimed app to showcase your | listing states, and we have a few more things that you can use | on your app coming in about a week. If you're interested in | early access, shoot me a message at support@store.app and we | can show you what's coming. | matthewhartmans wrote: | This is sick! Congratulations on the launch! | presson wrote: | Thank you!!! This means the world to us :-) | donmcronald wrote: | How do PWAs hold up when it comes to updates or getting a new | phone? Will they get re-installed when I set up a new phone? | hunter2_ wrote: | I've had them go missing just by doing an OTA update of my | phone, and I don't think it was even a major Android version. | Or maybe it was a Play store update of the Chrome app, I forget | exactly. But it was one of those things that's not expected to | eliminate data, yet it did. | | I think it was this: | https://support.google.com/android/thread/120942877/all-my-w... | CranberryDefuse wrote: | Really nice idea and superb website, thank you. I wish we could | submit without register though. | hbcondo714 wrote: | > List your app in under 2 minutes | | How? I would like to list my finance PWA[1] but I had to create a | regular account first and now wait for approval on a developer | account to submit an app. | | [1] https://github.com/hbcondo/revenut-app | presson wrote: | Hi! You should've been approved for a developer account. I | suppose the delay could go past two minutes. We'll be speeding | up this process soon. Hopefully in aggregate it only took you | less than two mins :-) If you have any issues, ping me at | support@store.app! | hbcondo714 wrote: | Thanks! I got downvoted for my comment but your response was | worth it. I got approved in 15 minutes, but I'm not counting! | It wasn't mentioned DNS verification is required for app | submissions but that is good you are doing that. Now I need | to go through the Google Domains / Squarespace transition: | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36346454 | pietervdvn wrote: | Hey @presson, | | I signed up as dev to get my webapp listed. I stumbled upon your | priced plans, and was wondering what a 'direct download link' is | and why I would pay $10/month for it. | SparkyMcUnicorn wrote: | How are you sourcing the current listings? | | I see there's a "list your app" (which means I can't submit an | app that isn't mine, right?), but there are some high quality | installable PWAs that are missing. Hoppscotch is a good example. | | Not expecting you to index the entire internet and filter out all | the spam. Just curious how the current list was built. | presson wrote: | That's correct, at the moment you can only add an app that you | can claim ownership of (vis dns). The current list was manually | added by us + by devs who have listed their apps on our site, | but we'll be rolling out a more scalable solution soon, along | with some better curation. I think that's a good idea to allow | users to recommend listings - we'll look into adding that soon. | Would love for you to create an account so we can keep you | posted on this feature / other progress :-) | dylan604 wrote: | maybe a "suggestion box" method for people that know of good | sites so that you might contact the dev directly about being | listed? | jsf01 wrote: | This is such a great idea. Excellent design, too. I second the | requests for dark mode or at least following the user's prefers- | color-scheme setting. | | Do you have ambitions to monetize this, or go the open source | route? Where do you go from here? | thekingshorses wrote: | PiHole blocks the email verification link/domain. | presson wrote: | Thank you for posting this! Have noted for our team to look | into. | willsmith72 wrote: | This is awesome, as PWAs get better I really REALLY hope they'll | challenge the big app stores. So far no one I know outside of | tech knows or cares that this is even possible, but I hope sites | like this will gradually change that and also change people's | perceptions of what has to be a "native" app. | | I don't see any reason why in 10 years we should still be paying | the 30% tax (+ the $100/year) just to get something with | notifications and offline on the home screen. Sadly there's | literally hundreds of billions on the table, so there's going to | continue to be huge resistance. | hunter2_ wrote: | When I install something from those stores, I feel like there | is some level of vetting against malware, or at least the | ability for the store to pull it if it becomes known-malicious | after I installed it. 30% might be too much of a fee, but some | payment for that service makes sense, I think. | | Are PWAs somehow immune to this concern by virtue of running on | the way stricter feature set that a browser offers? If they can | prompt the user for access to all of these APIs [0], and the | user allows it, and then it later becomes malicious while able | to run a service worker in the background, that seems a bit | more concerning than regular non-PWA browsing that can't | continue to run after the tab is closed. | | [0] https://permission.site | brucethemoose2 wrote: | > When I install something from those stores, I feel like | there is some level of vetting against malware | | I don't. | | Google Play has served me malware on my device (touchpal) | that went undiscovered forever. And tons of high search | ranking apps are straight up scams or data harvesting fronts | even if they aren't legally "malware." I feel more secure | about web apps because _at least_ I am protected by the | browser 's sandboxing/fingerprinting protection (and in my | case Cromite's extra blocking). | | IDK about iOS, but Google Play is a dumpster fire. I hope it | burns to the ground. | willsmith72 wrote: | I totally agree, the security issue is the biggest thing app | stores have going for them. I think 2 things. | | 1. if momentum goes PWA's way, smart people will work on | these problems. I'm not saying I have the answers, but if I | can root for either 2 megacorps or the open web, I'm going | open web every time. (again, not saying we're there yet with | PWAs) | | 2. If an app store's only function is vetting software, we | can have an open market for marketplaces. Anyone can build | their own app store and, with enough reputation, become | trusted in the eyes of consumer's, just like we trust Apple | The difference is in a free market, that 30% and $100 drop | dramatically, I would wager to something more like 5% and $0. | | At those rates, having an app store where people feel the | software is secure, can trust reviews/ratings etc seems | reasonable to me. PWA doesn't have to mean otherwise | coder543 wrote: | Service workers aren't a magic "run forever in the | background" technology. | | I'm fairly sure PWAs can't run in the background at all on | iOS or Android, except for possibly a brief moment after the | PWA receives a notification, and the service worker doesn't | have access to much of anything during that interval. If | anyone can link to something that demonstrates otherwise, | okay, but I have checked on this in the past, and I don't | think so. | | Native apps have been caught with their hand in the | metaphorical cookie jar over and over again. The App Store | review process is largely ineffective. Apple apparently | didn't even realize that apps were doing sketchy things with | the clipboard until it became a major headline[0], and this | is only the tip of the iceberg of "things App Store review | didn't catch". | | Native apps _continue_ to find ways to bypass sandboxing that | the OS applies. | | Browsers naturally take a much more adversarial posture | against the code they're running, so the sandboxing is far | stronger. | | Apple has spent at least a decade marketing[1] to convince | people the App Store is synonymous with safety, because they | want their 30% cut. The marketing campaign seems to be | working too well. In reality, the browser seems to be | substantially safer, although nothing is perfect. | | [0]: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06/tiktok- | and-53-other-... | | [1]: | | https://apple.com/app-store/ | | "The apps you love. From a place you can trust. For over a | decade, the App Store has proved to be a safe and trusted | place to discover and download apps." | yieldcrv wrote: | nobody outside of tech cares | | they already use web apps with optional notifications | | anybody developing mobile apps knows that almost nobody | downloads the company's app, and it's just there for vanity and | clout | willsmith72 wrote: | > nobody outside of tech cares | | Yeah i know, hence "So far no one I know outside of tech | knows or cares that this is even possible, but I hope sites | like this will gradually change that and also change people's | perceptions of what has to be a "native" app." | | > anybody developing mobile apps knows that almost nobody | downloads the company's app, and it's just there for vanity | and clout | | What do you mean here? Did you mean to say PWAs? | yieldcrv wrote: | not PWAs, I'm saying that ios/android apps dont have much | traction for most companies | | many of the reasons are that discovery is bad , and many | people have run out of space on their phones, and generally | just aren't interested in another app | | but PWAs solve this by at least letting people experience | your service | hanniabu wrote: | What are the security concerns with something like this? Can PWAs | contain malicious code? If yes, what can they do? | pietervdvn wrote: | A PWA is nothing more then a glorified web site, which opens | full screen. | | Security-wise, they cannot do anything worse then a website | can. In other words, this is _less_ then a native app can do. | rexreed wrote: | Any advice for PWA developers who are trying to make use of | possibly attached hardware? I'm looking to build a POS app that | needs to connect to a receipt printer and scanner, but having | trouble finding support for the printer bit. Trying to avoid any | pop-up dialogue that requires user confirmation. | presson wrote: | Join our discord and there are likely some people who can help | https://discord.gg/tFquNjuK | willhackett wrote: | You may need to look at some sort of hybrid configuration. A | daemon to communicate with hardware, but the user experience | built within the PWA. | KRAKRISMOTT wrote: | If you don't need iOS, WebUSB should do the trick. | mouse_ wrote: | What a tragedy that what used to be called "installing" is now | mocked by the industry lobby as "sideloading", and what used to | just be "visiting a web page" has taken its rightful place. | | I have not and probably will not ever "install" a "web app". This | is literally just a list of web sites. It's no more useful than | Yahoo circa 1998 but now the bookmarks are on your desktop or | homescreen rather than in your browser, where you're going to be | taken anyways if you open one of them. | | Call me a cynical boomer. | bko wrote: | I like the idea of "installing" a web app that basically | creates a bookmark to a webpage, because the alternative is | installing an actual app. It's nice to have things all | basically browser based as it gives the developer more control | of the product and creates a single reasonable platform. I hate | going to linkedin or Reddit or similar websites on mobile and | them forcing me to use their app. It also breaks the dominance | of centralized app stores like android and apple | JohnFen wrote: | > It's nice to have things all basically browser based as it | gives the developer more control of the product and creates a | single reasonable platform. | | I get that. But as a user, I really hate browser-based | applications and avoid them entirely unless I have no other | option. | bko wrote: | What do you prefer? Native apps? | JohnFen wrote: | Yes. Although this depends a lot on the quality of the | software, native apps tend to be much better in terms of | UI and performance, and they tend to use less system | resources -- sometimes a _lot_ less. | holoduke wrote: | Nowadays i would argue that the css rendering speed is | faster than the Android UI renderer which suffers from | extreme complexity. Ios might be still faster, but also | much more limited. A good SPA is indistinguishable from a | native app. | coder543 wrote: | > A good SPA is indistinguishable from a native app. | | Exactly. It's like CGI in movies. People always talk | about how bad CGI is, without realizing just how much | good CGI they never notice. | | https://youtu.be/bL6hp8BKB24 | majikandy wrote: | Apps that are just a web app inside an app container are | even worse though! | presson wrote: | You're a cynical boomer :-P | | But really, I think you'll change your mind at some point. | There's some pretty cool stuff coming. | thekingshorses wrote: | I m that cynical boomer. | | I use mostly apps like Whatsapp, and garage door opener. | | Can't use banks apps as you can only login to one account. | | Everything I do is on the browser. https://hn.premii.com & | https://reddit.premii.com - almost 10 years old, it still | works. No need to update the framework or need someone's | approval. | mouse_ wrote: | Anything I wouldn't be able to do by just going to the | website? :/ | presson wrote: | Off the top of my head for ios - push notifications, | offline use, optimized storage options (local storage not | cleared after 7 days of no use), app-like ux (no browser | controls), home screen icon for easy access, background | audio (sound while app is closed). | | The real advantage is for devs who can build an app that | feels like a native app, but with one codebase for | distribution across OSs/devices, not having to pay the | apple/google tax, and not dealing with app review. | _hzw wrote: | I made my web app into a PWA and even went so far as to | polish the home screen icon and splash screen to make it | look nice once installed. However, in the end, I use the | browser much more frequently, simply because I can access | the URL of the page and share it elsewhere. | presson wrote: | The beauty of the browser is that you can choose your own | adventure. Being able to use or test apps in a browser | tab is awesome, and it's up to the dev to choose a ux | that showcases / informs the user of additional | capabilities unlocked after adding to home screen. We're | at the very early days of exploring what this ux can | unlock. | aragonite wrote: | Also, on a desktop, some websites are just more naturally | run in their own separate window than as a browser tab | because you frequently need to switch to/from them: e.g. | ChatGPT, Gmail, Google Voice/Keep, MDN docs, | dictionaries. | | And you can put the PWAs in full sceen mode, whereas | full-screen mode in a regular browser is almost always | pointless ever since they took away tab indicators. | tamimio wrote: | Your average person now think of anything as an "app" or it | should have one, even if it was just a wrapper for a browser, | they would still install the app (1), so I think OP is in the | right direction, nothing will change from the user side but | much better for the developer one. | | (1) Reminds me of this :) https://files.catbox.moe/36o4jr.jpeg | presson wrote: | This is our hope. If we can help smooth out the messaging / | install process, once a PWA is installed most apps will feel | identical to a native app for most users. We used to say "web | apps are apps" but now we just say "apps are apps" :-P ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-10-05 23:00 UTC)