[HN Gopher] Improving deep sleep may prevent dementia, study finds ___________________________________________________________________ Improving deep sleep may prevent dementia, study finds Author : clouddrover Score : 383 points Date : 2023-11-01 12:07 UTC (10 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.monash.edu) (TXT) w3m dump (www.monash.edu) | thesuavefactor wrote: | The million dollar question is though "How do we improve deep | sleep?" I have a sleep tracker at home and my weak point is | always not getting enough deep sleep. I'm not sure there's a way | to force deep sleep somehow... | hiAndrewQuinn wrote: | Lots of low hanging fruit in this arena for people who haven't | made a serious effort yet. Cutting out caffeine and alcohol | entirely from my diet were by far the biggest improvements I | made, then regular exercise, and finally a midday nap during my | lunch break. | twh270 wrote: | That's a good list (though I personally find it impossible to | nap during the day). I'd add one thing: reduce stress. | wombat-man wrote: | Yeah, I sleep way better if I go to bed totally sober. | Generally caffeine seems to be ok if I stop after 3pm or so. | nick222226 wrote: | Yep, as I get into my 30s I notice alcohol consumption | drastically affects my sleep quality and time to fall | asleep. | | I've also cut out coffee and that has helped my | sinuses/upper throat a lot in the morning which were being | irritated. I drink some varieties of tea instead. | manmal wrote: | I'm intrigued by the midday nap, because I think I remember | reading that daytime naps worsen night sleep. I do like naps | though, and find them refreshing. Have you found research | that supports this? | beezlebroxxxxxx wrote: | The primary benefit from mid-day naps is that they simply | help you relax and get some rest. You don't want them to be | long, just refreshing. This is well known in athletics | where most major athletes take naps as a matter of recovery | and to improve their sleep quality. Presumably, feeling | relaxed and rested when you go to sleep helps you get some | deeper sleep and improve sleep quality. | 2devnull wrote: | Naps are terrible sleep hygiene. Any deviation from a | regular set sleep schedule is bad hygiene. Better to get | less sleep than to nap and disturb the sleep schedule. Many | people develop insomnia this way, especially shift workers. | kaba0 wrote: | It's almost like we are not some robots with scheduled | downtimes - physiology is much more complicated than to | have such a mathematical truths. The only true thing we | can conclude is always: this factor might correspond to | this effect (and sometimes may even say that it is not | only correlation) | dev_hugepages wrote: | The siesta is natural and is different from the naps | taken from shift workers that are likely either | interrupting night time sleep or are shifting their | circadian rythm so that their "biological night" is in | the day. Same thing for the "biological day" (it will be | put at night) | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siesta?wprov=sfla1 | musha68k wrote: | AFAIR was only the case if nap was longer than ~20 min? I | don't remember if this was a consistent thing, I doubt it | though as this stuff is inherently individual. | Experimentation is the only way with sleep optimization.. | jlpom wrote: | It does not worsen night sleep, this is a misconception. It | is better than nothing but often not as good as regular | sleep since you often does not goes through a full cycle. | dev_hugepages wrote: | I recommend to read | https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Best_time_for_napping The key | takeaways is that naps won't affect night time sleep much | if it's timed well. I also don't recommend stopping them | artificially (I've heard the "keep them short" advice a | lot), naps are usually short if you aren't sleep deprived | and time it well. | leetrout wrote: | Similar for me. | | I'll add that I take a small magnesium supplement mid to late | afternoon as well which helps me relax and if dreams are any | indication of deeper sleep I have many more memorable dreams | when I'm taking magnesium. | JoshTko wrote: | What form of magnesium? | DrThunder wrote: | I use a powdered drink called 'Calm'. It's got a bit of a | berry flavor to it. Start with a small amount though or | you'll be shitting your pants. There are a lot of studies | showing magnesium levels are far too low in people anyway | so it's a good idea to supplement it. | willseth wrote: | Magnesium glycinate is typically recommended, but any | form that doesn't upset your stomach is probably good. | TedDoesntTalk wrote: | Magnesium L-Threonate (a.k.a. magtein) supposedly crosses | the blood-brain barrier better than any other form of | magnesium. | leetrout wrote: | I currently use magnesium oxide in a tablet form (I use | half a tablet, ~125mg). I have previously used magnesium | glycinate but I don't remember what dose I used of that. | | I'll add, the mag oxide always prevents leg cramps when I | take a full tablet (250mg) when I am working outside all | day (and staying hydrated). | | ETA: In my experience magnesium citrate is the one mostly | likely to cause diarrhea though they all can. | willseth wrote: | Dreams are an indication of REM sleep, but improvement in | REM may be a general indication that you're getting overall | better sleep, including deep sleep. | magbay_stan wrote: | I 100% shill for magnesium when I can, and sleep is a huge | reason in my experience. I was recommended it by others for | sleep, and I have got a lot of people started. Within a few | days our sleep is just so much better, including deeper | dreams. I do 100mg lysinate glycinate. My brand's bottle | recommends two per serving, but one has worked great. I | take it right before bed and have never looked back. | Nemi wrote: | I also take Magnesium and swear by it. I also suspect I | have some underlying kidney issues retaining many | electrolytes and started taking a potassium with the | magnesium at bedtime and it has transformed my sleep into | baby-land. I sleep so hard now and when I wake up, I have | no problem getting right back to sleep. I feel so refreshed | the next day it is honestly shocking to me. I have always | said that before I started taking both that I felt like I | was on a one-way track to dementia. That is just how I | felt. Very anecdotal, but I believe it in my bones. | rednerrus wrote: | How much of each are you taking? Are you taking any blood | pressure medications? | astrange wrote: | Magnesium makes it worse for me because you have to pee out | a bunch of minerals. | 1970-01-01 wrote: | Its not so straightforward. Caffeine consumption has been | shown to reduce the chance of dementia. | | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7836063/ | shlant wrote: | 1. Can't be sure that the effect of caffeine is more worth | it than the possible impact on sleep. Better sleep probably | has a wider range of benefits compared to caffeine. | | 2. Might not have to be one or the other - just make sure | caffeine consumption is very early in the day | Almondsetat wrote: | All these studies seem like cope. | | You drink coffee because it makes you do more things at | work / you are a slob without it because of addiction. You | are not drinking it because it might make you better in bed | or have less dementia in 50 years. | | On the other hand we all need to sleep so doing it properly | is a net positive | brigadier132 wrote: | Caffeine is really not unhealthy. It's one of the most | studied supplements ever. If you drink one cup of coffee | before noon you will be perfectly fine. | Almondsetat wrote: | >if you drink one cup | | If you only shoot heroin once a week you will be | perfectly fine | | How many people resist the urge and only shoot heroin | once a week? | | We are humans, not perfectly diligent robots. | | The first thing you say to a person with eating disorders | is to throw all the junk food from their home. It's close | to impossible to resist even the "simple" temptation of | food. | | It's much easier for a person to never start drinking | coffee in the morning to "wake up" than starting and then | quitting | brigadier132 wrote: | Caffeine is not heroin. Caffeine has proven benefits. | | Given your entire comment is one massive strawman | argument I will ignore the rest of it. | Almondsetat wrote: | > Caffeine is not heroin. Caffeine has proven benefits. | | Heroin has proven benefits, this is why they give it to | you at the hospital. | | Given your entire comment is a massive lie I will ignore | the rest of your replies | brigadier132 wrote: | Ah yes, heroin and caffeine are equivalent, that's why we | see all those caffeine addicts lining the streets of San | Francisco looking for their next fix. | | If you want to have an honest discussion, stop using | these terrible analogies and bring actual scientific | evidence. | | This mentality of finding these shallow similarities and | drawing these insane conclusions indicates that someone | has very low intelligence. | | This is your "deep" thought process | | 1. Caffeine is a drug | | 2. Heroin is also a drug | | 3. Caffeine can have negative effects on people when used | in excess | | 4. Heroin can also have negative effects on people when | used in excess! | | ergo, caffeine is as bad as heroin | Almondsetat wrote: | > ergo, caffeine is as bad as heroin | | Never said this. | | Perhaps if you didn't "ignore" the rest of my comment you | would have understood the point :) | r2_pilot wrote: | There's a Starbucks in town whose unfortunate positioning | has led to a great increase in wrecks (it's just past a | hill, on a fairly busy road with speed limit of 40mph, | and it doesn't have enough space for a large drive thru | so cars are backed into the road). | hiAndrewQuinn wrote: | Actually, I have to side with the original commenter on | this. A great deal of today's public health issues in the | first world stem directly or indirectly from people being | unable to properly moderate use of a good thing. That's | why I switched to decaf - I'd have to drink 10 times the | amount of coffee I normally do to get an equivalent dose. | TedDoesntTalk wrote: | Decaf has its own issues. Read up on the residues left in | coffee after it's been through the decaf process. | caskstrength wrote: | I just turn off coffee machine at noon and that is it. | How hard can it be for you? | Almondsetat wrote: | >How hard can it be for you? | | maybe ask the 100 years of scientific publications about | human behavior and addiction? | TedDoesntTalk wrote: | There are different intensities of addiction. Heroin | addiction is not comparable to caffeine. And we each | respond differently to addictive substances. | caskstrength wrote: | You are constructing very weird strawman here. Me and a | lot of my friends have beer in the fridge or some | stronger spirit on the shelf and yet they don't get drunk | first thing in the morning before work. Similarly I don't | observe them gulping liters of coffee at 10 pm. There are | always people who have harder time moderating their | addictions, but absolute majority seem to be able to | control their caffeine consumption just fine. | Almondsetat wrote: | > absolute majority seem to be able to control their | caffeine consumption just fine. | | According to whom? Data says otherwise | | https://www.statista.com/chart/19524/cups-of-coffee- | drunk-by... | caskstrength wrote: | "One cup" of coffee doesn't mean anything by itself since | the effects depend on both genetics and tolerance. Do you | have data that confirms that majority of adults either | consume so much coffee that it causes unwanted side | effects (sleep problems) or that they want to reduce | their consumption and struggling to do so due to the | dependency? | | I usually consume two double espressos per day (both | before noon) and don't have trouble falling asleep | afterwards. | barbariangrunge wrote: | It's like website blockers for productivity: eventually | you realize you can just undo the work you did and go | back to business as usual, especially if there's an | excuse ("I need this youtube video on software | architecture for my research, so I'll just unblock | youtube and...") | musha68k wrote: | It's not necessarily 0 or 1 is it? E.g. a "short espresso" | in the early morning hours at least from my sleep tracking | / particular (heavy) physiology doesn't make a difference | vs when I'm off of caffeine (on weekends usually). I'd | start with dropping afternoon coffee and experiment | backwards from there. | zeroonetwothree wrote: | Your link literally says: " Epidemiologic studies have | provided inconclusive evidence for a protective effect of | caffeine consumption on risk of dementia and cognitive | decline." | | That doesn't sound very convincing. | 1970-01-01 wrote: | Context is key. You've just cited the concept under | challenge. The summary and conclusion literally says it | "may reduce the risk of dementia and cognitive decline, | and may ameliorate cognitive decline in cognitively | impaired individuals." | krrrh wrote: | Without reading this paper but having read a bunch of this | research in the past, it's definitely inconclusive due to | poor quality data. The people who don't consume caffeine | category too often includes those with major health issues | that prevent them from doing so. | Ironlikebike wrote: | I have always had insomnia and have to maintain very good | sleep hygiene. Here's a few things I have found that help me | get to sleep: | | - No exercise after 18:30/6:30pm | | - Absolutely avoid Vitamin D and Vitamin B supplements in the | evening. These will suppress deep and REM sleep and I'll | sleep lightly all night long if I take them. | | - Hot sauna, shower, or bath before bed. | | - Anti-histamine (cetirizine hydrochloride aka Zyrtec) as | needed - I'm allergic to my wife's dog and some nights I feel | like I have bugs crawling on my skin. It can even wake me up. | | Things that keep me from waking up at night: | | - Gas X as needed to avoid acid reflux | | - Anti Inflammatory helps keep me from having to use the | bathroom when I know I'm inflamed (getting old sucks). | | - No alcohol in the evening | | - No videogames, interesting books, or French lessons right | before bed, or I'll be sleeping lightly and find myself | ruminating in light sleep over these mentally engaging | topics. | iamdbtoo wrote: | Would you mind sharing what you take for the anti- | inflammatory? Do you take it daily? | appplication wrote: | No alcohol or weed in the evening is critical for me. | Either after about 5pm completely ruins my sleep. | MrDrMcCoy wrote: | I on the other hand can't get to sleep without weed, and | that's my sole purpose for consuming it. | TedDoesntTalk wrote: | Sounds like a stress/relaxation issue. | sys32768 wrote: | Have you also tried no calories after 5 PM? That has | given me the deepest sleep with vivid dreams. | SoftTalker wrote: | Something that helps me is to do something physically | exhausting during the day. Probably not right before | bedtime though. For me it's weightlifting, that's the | only exercise I've been able to stick with. If that's not | your thing, try to find something else that elevates your | heart rate/makes you sweat for 30 minutes or so, that | might help you sleep better. Even some deep | stretching/yoga can get your muscles firing and get your | heart rate up. | | You might also try no screens/TV/computers after dark. | Keep interior lights at low levels and a warm color | temperature after dark. Be intentional about doing | calming, quiet things before bedtime. | orthecreedence wrote: | When do you usually go to bed? | TedDoesntTalk wrote: | Conventional wisdom says do not eat within 3 hours of | sleep. If you go to bed at 10:00, nothing after 7:00. | ScottEvtuch wrote: | I thought vivid dreaming was an indicator of sleep | interruption, not quality sleep. IIRC dreaming happens | during our deepest sleep when you would not normally be | easily woken up. Remembering your dreams mean you woke | during that time. | sys32768 wrote: | I thought that too, but what seems to happen is that I | wake up remembering a very _long_ dream rather than just | a jumble of dream snippets from the night. | DiffEq wrote: | Just make sure your anti-histamine is not in this list of | drugs to avoid. | | https://youtu.be/16n80OQCVSM?si=_Ve2HH4U2N-ATTnj | resoluteteeth wrote: | I think that's why they specified zyrtec which is a | second generation (not anticholinergic) antihistamine | robocat wrote: | Most off-the-shelf antihistamines are now non-drowsy. | | I asked the pharmacist for a drowsy antihistamine the | other day and they gave me something from behind the | counter (no script required). No idea if it was | anticholinergic: most drugs require compromises so if | something works better for sleep for me I'll judge the | risks for other side-effects. | | Normally I use a loratidine if I wake in the early hours | and that usually gets me back to sleep, even though it is | non-drowsy. | | I wanted to try a different antihistamine to see if it | worked better: jury's out on that at the moment. | | Personally I think it is _very_ important to experiment | on yourself, and test a variety of solutions. I will even | test alternative medicine for important problems. I | strongly avoid dangerous solutions. I am fairly | conservative and I especially dislike taking pills, but I | believe in the value of trying a bit of science on your | problems. | halfmatthalfcat wrote: | Funny how you say avoid Vit D, yet another poster swears | taking Vit D before bed solved their issue. | jsharf wrote: | Suggests there's other variables involved, like time of | day taken, other supplements taken simultaneously, | metabolic processes, diet, and maybe even the placebo | effect. | JamesBarney wrote: | If you pubmed vitamin d and sleep you find that in | general vitamin d makes sleep quality worse. (I'm sure | there are exceptions) | meindnoch wrote: | >having to use the bathroom when I know I'm inflamed | | What does this sentence mean? | mrbigbob wrote: | If i had to take a guess i think this person might be | referring to an enlarged/inflamed prostate. | meindnoch wrote: | Oh! Ok, I get it now. | | I thought he was feeling any kind of inflammation in his | body. | baby wrote: | What really kills me is acid reflux. If I get it at night I | just have to wake up and sit down or stand up until it | passes... fortunately it happens rarely enough and I kind | of know what will trigger it, but it still sucks. | TedDoesntTalk wrote: | Are you eating within 3 hours of sleep? | spondylosaurus wrote: | Alka-Seltzer always knocks reflux down for me pretty | quick. Still get woken up by the reflux and have to haul | myself out of bed to get the goods, but a few sips and I | can get right back in bed. | MetallicDragon wrote: | Try OTC reflux medicine like Prilosec (Omeprazole). Works | way better than Tums for reflux in my experience. | roldie wrote: | Curious how gas x helps with acid reflux. My understanding | is that it's for bloating more than reflux. Do you find it | works better than antacids? | InSteady wrote: | It helps reduce bloating. If you have bloating + weak | esophageal sphincter (or just really bad bloating) you | can get reflux as a result. | | Actually, more accurately, gas-x has an enzyme that helps | break down oligosaccharides. The mechanism may be more | complex than above if your acid reflux is somehow related | to microbiome stuff (oligos are favorite food for all | kinds of gut bacteria). | roldie wrote: | Thanks, never knew that! | illegalsmile wrote: | What anti-inflammatory do you recommend? Ibuprofen works | great for me but it's not something I want to use | regularly. Turmeric/curcumin? | astrange wrote: | > - Anti-histamine (cetirizine hydrochloride aka Zyrtec) as | needed - I'm allergic to my wife's dog and some nights I | feel like I have bugs crawling on my skin. It can even wake | me up. | | Antihistamines are associated with increased dementia if | you take the wrong ones, so it's not a good way to get more | sleep. Melatonin, trazodone or a newer sleep drug is safer. | bryceacc wrote: | that seems to be associated with benadryl: | | https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/common- | anticholinergic-d... | | which is sometimes used for it's drowsy effect. | cetirizine/loratidine are non-drowsy and I don't see any | association known with dementia | eindiran wrote: | Yeah, Benadryl is a weird drug. Look at its interactions | with various receptor sites in humans: https://en.wikiped | ia.org/wiki/Diphenhydramine#Pharmacology | bogota wrote: | Im jealous of anyone who can sleep well. I have been doing | all of the above for years as well as testing out different | temperatures and also not looking at screens for well over an | hour before going to bed. | | I just can't get good consistent deep sleep. I will say one | thing that did help was i use to live in the city and after i | moved outside of it and it was much much quieter at night (no | trucks driving through or random sounds or honking in the | middle of the night) i did notice an improvement. | Jedd wrote: | Urban sounds are a big problem for me as well, but you may | want to try a white noise generator (phone app or even a | small low-power fan) to hide some of those noises. | | The fan for me doubles as a way of getting air circulation. | I keep windows open in other rooms, but not the bedroom - | due to street noises. Having a CO2 monitor may give you | some insights into another key factor impacting your sleep | quality. | mirekrusin wrote: | Start taking GlyNAC and see how you feel after a week or | two. It's crazy nobody is recommending it but me here. | spelunker wrote: | The biggest improvement for me by far was a CPAP. | alostpuppy wrote: | Same! If you have poor sleep, it couldn't hurt to see a | sleep doc. | blinding-streak wrote: | CPAP nade a profound difference for me. Cognitively and | physically. | musha68k wrote: | Could you elaborate? Are you talking about this? https://en | .wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_positive_airway_pre... | musha68k wrote: | I agree, it's hard but worth it. I have the data to back it | up through sleep tracking. I've always felt somewhat unfazed | by coffee, yet caffeine flashbacks can be very subtle and do | seem to have a measurable impact on this "user" at least. | | Also really darkening the bedroom and keeping the temperature | as low as possible. | | Now if there only were a consistent solution for energetic | "night owl" toddlers to go with that ever more optimized | regimen :D | alistairSH wrote: | Just seconding many of the suggestions so far... | | - no alcohol after dinner (none at all is better) - eat | dinner as early as possible (before 7pm, even earlier is | better) - turn off screens after 9pm (Kindle doesn't seem to | impact, but phone/tablet/TV do) - exercise regularly, but not | too close to bedtime - regular bed time and wake time (we go | to bedroom 9:30-10, lights out 10:30, alarm at 6am). | | Meditation and breathing exercise can help too, but I haven't | had to try those much. | VirusNewbie wrote: | >Cutting out caffeine and alcohol entirely from my diet were | by far the biggest improvements I made | | Are you sure the latter improved _deep sleep_? Alcohol is | known to interfere with REM sleep, but I 've actually found | it lengthens the amount of time I spend in deep sleep if I | have a single beer or something at dinner. I tracked this | over months with a sleep tracker. | rpmisms wrote: | I sleep too deeply. 1oz of liquor immediately before sleep | makes me able to comprehend alarms in the morning. | lr4444lr wrote: | Sleep, like digestion, wound healing, or respiration, seems to | be one of those complex bodily processes that can suffer from | dysfunction for a variety of reasons we're only now beginning | to understand rigorously. A quality polysomnography is a good | place to start. | agos wrote: | and to top it off, issues with digestion or respiration will | impact your sleep negatively | bnralt wrote: | One thing I've found that really helps is actually not worrying | too much about sleep. Try to follow good basic habits, but you | can become neurotic trying to follow every suggestion that | people make or thinking that a few nights of horrible sleep is | going to damage you for life. If I get a few nights of poor | sleep nowadays I try to just shrug it off. | leokennis wrote: | I have a feeling that the more "advanced" tips seen in this | thread are more (personal) solutions/improvements for the | situation of "I am stressed and so I cannot sleep well". I.e. | to make a non-optimal situation a little better. | | Which is fine, but in general I'd think having the luxury of | being in a calm, comfortable and unworried state of mind is | the most beneficial. | _Algernon_ wrote: | I remember reading in _Why we Sleep_ [1] about devices that you | could wear which would increase the intensity of deep sleep | brain waves, thereby causing deeper sleep. Not sure how legit | this is seen these days or how close such devices are to | becoming available to regular consumers, but was interesting to | read about. | | [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Sleep | heipei wrote: | Personal anecdote, but I sleep with earplugs most of the nights | as I have a very light sleep. I would wake from really small | noises multiple times every night. In contrast, sleeping with | earplugs feels like entering a dark and quiet chamber and then | suddenly emerging after 7-8 hours of uninterrupted sleep. YMMV, | but for me it's a godsend. | globular-toast wrote: | I have the same problem but I've yet to find earplugs that I | can wear every night. The only only ones I've been able to | sleep with at all are silicone ones that mould to the shape | of the ear. I can only sleep which makes things significantly | more difficult but with some practice I can get the silicone | ones flat and not feeling like there's pressure inside my ear | which will stop me sleeping. | | I don't travel without these now and they have been great, | but after several successive nights of use I find my ear | starts to get sore and sensitive to them. | | The best thing, of course, is to live somewhere actually | quiet. Most noise is from cars. But failing that I have to | sleep with some white noise source like a fan. | prirun wrote: | I use these earplugs every night and whenever I'm exposed | to noise, like vacuuming. For me, it helps me sleep better | and also seems to reduce tinnitus. Note: I'm not saying | wearing earplugs directly reduces tinnitus, but IMO it | reduces ear stimulation because my ears are processing less | sound, so my ears don't get as tired, and that seems to | make my tinnitus less noticeable. | | https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0051U7W32 | | I re-use the same set, washing them when I take a shower. I | bought the above set of 50 years ago and still have many | left. | | A couple of tricks I use with these: | | - I cut about 1/4" off the small end. If I don't, the | earplug starts to hurt my ear if I wear it a lot, I think | because it goes too far into my ear. | | - before using a new earplug, I wash it several times with | bar soap. There is something in a new ear plug that makes | it stay mashed. Maybe it suppresses more noise with that, | but it also makes it hard to fit for me. I keep washing it | until it is springy. This is a one-time thing with a new | ear plug. | globular-toast wrote: | The "stay mashed" property is by design for these types | of earplugs because they are meant to go right into the | ear canal. The idea is you mash them (well, carefully | roll and compress) then insert them while still mashed, | holding them in as they slowly re-expand. | | But this is, of course, to ensure protection in the case | of dangerously high sound pressure levels. Cutting them | would also compromise them in this regard. Perhaps | different if you are using them to block out low noises | for sleep. | knicholes wrote: | Whenever I use these, I have to wake up in the middle of | the night because my ear canals are all wet inside. Does | this not happen to you? | globular-toast wrote: | Yes, but I think to a lesser extent. I have not felt | uncomfortable in the night due to this, but my ears | definitely feel more moist in the morning which probably | contributes to the soreness/sensitivity over time for me. | walthamstow wrote: | Similar for me, I use a blindfold and white noise to create a | sleep cocoon with no distractions | rashkov wrote: | Same, highly recommend the manta sleep mask for any back | sleepers | canadiantim wrote: | I just repeat mantras until all the sheep are counted, | works like a charm | unsupp0rted wrote: | Hard for me to get good sleep with earplugs: | | 1. They're noticeably "there" in my ears, or even mildly | uncomfortable | | 2. I'm nervous about missing important sounds (family | telephone emergencies, emergency door knocks, etc) | heipei wrote: | Regarding some of the comments: Yes, I had trouble sleeping | with earplugs initially myself. It's definitely something you | have to get used to, but once you do you don't notice them at | all. Then it feels like having acquired a new super-power. I | use Bilsom 303 type of disposable plugs, the type you'd find | on a worksite, although I only change them after a few weeks | of use. | krrrh wrote: | The Bose sleepbuds were helpful for me in masking snoring | sounds. I found conventional earbuds too uncomfortable the | way they seal, while these make up for the lack of perfect | seal with white noise. Looks like the product has been | recently spun out to a new company. | | https://www.theverge.com/2023/8/22/23837206/ozlo- | sleepbuds-b... | jacobsimon wrote: | I think the other key question is causality - do people who get | less deep sleep develop these diseases, or do people who are | developing these diseases get less deep sleep, or both? | | I wonder if they could design an interventional study in which | people who are predisposed to dementia are given more sleep or | melatonin, and then demonstrate whether it protects against the | disease. | bryanrasmussen wrote: | I mean one of the common correlations between dementia and | 'something else' is stress, people who are stressed get | dementia more often. I guess people who are not getting | enough deep sleep are also stressed. | kzz102 wrote: | The study does not prove causality: it is right in the title | of the paper: _Association_ Between Slow-Wave Sleep Loss and | Incident Dementia. | | Sorry for the rant: we should not share university press | release articles, they are always clickbait. Just share the | research directly. | bookofjoe wrote: | dang I smiled when I read this comment | bradley13 wrote: | You're right about the journal paper, but the pop-sci title | implies causation. So, for those who didn't click all the | way through: There is zero proof of causation. It may well | be that people getting dementia have increased problems | sleeping. Or both may be caused by some third factor. | Moldoteck wrote: | no alcohol, no coffee after 12:00, try to eat less(caloric | food) at dinner & try to eat no closer than 3h before your | sleep, make sure the room you sleep in is fully dark, make sure | you have comfortable temperature (if you are rich, you may as | well get that ultrafancy mattress that regulates the | temperature), make sure pillow is comfy, not too hard¬ too | soft | buzzdenver wrote: | I do not have an answer for you, but I have a very low level of | trust in the deep sleep numbers, as they are based on heart | rate and not brain waves. | mattgreenrocks wrote: | FWIW, my Apple Watch's reports of deep sleep line up with my | Zeo (EEG)'s numbers from awhile ago. | petesergeant wrote: | My deep sleep has massively improved recently and consistently | for the last month. Two things I've done differently (and I'm | not sure which is to thank) is taking magnesium before bed each | night and inhaling fluticasone. No more snoring, no more waking | up tired. | thelastgallon wrote: | Whats the sleep tracker you use? I've been looking at a few, | not sure which ones are really accurate. | jncfhnb wrote: | Try brown noise | IndySun wrote: | It's Brownian noise, to be precise. | cschmidt wrote: | This probably doesn't help you directly, but I suspect the | older people mentioned in the article may often have some sleep | apnea, preventing them from reaching deep sleep. I just started | using a CPAP machine, which has greatly improved it for me. | Making sure it is always treated could help society wide. | samuell wrote: | I've always had trouble falling asleep properly. | | I got helped by the usual suspects like avoiding caffeine after | 14-15, earplugs, thick curtains and light cover over the eyes | as well as cool temperatures in the sleeping room, but the big | improvement came after I stopped eating after 20 in the night, | and preferably earlier than that. | perbu wrote: | According to this researched I heard an interview with about | 15-20% of the population has some level of intolerance for | histamines. Having high histamine levels affect sleep. | | I find it interesting that it is never addressed in these | common list of what to try to improve sleep. It's not rocket | science managing it, just a matter of avoiding high histamine | food after 5pm or so. Good sleep might be worth it. | atmosx wrote: | How does the sensor track "deep sleep" reliably? | GuB-42 wrote: | If your sleep tracker is one of these consumer devices that you | put on your wrist, they are notoriously unreliable (here is a | study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7603649/ ). | Worse, they have been shown to cause unnecessary stress by | causing people who are actually perfectly fine to chase | numbers. | | As for how to improve sleep, there are plenty of advise, many | of them commonsense (see in this thread). But I think that | unless you are actually followed by a healthcare professional, | in which case he would probably give better advise than random | people on HN, how well you feel the next day is probably a | better metric than some number on a smartwatch. And if the | answer is "fine", I don't think there is a reason to worry | much. | evanjrowley wrote: | Somewhat ironically, the sleep apnea screening device I was | sent is also meant to be worn on the wrist. There were three | additional sensors connected to it. One for monitor chest | movements for breathing, one for monitoring breath itself, | and another for blood oxygen level. | daralthus wrote: | q10 coenzyme before bed turns me into a log for the whole night | 2devnull wrote: | That's what I don't get and would love someone to post full | text of the study. They claim this is a "modifiable" risk. I | find that claim dubious and would love to see how they support | that, and why this isn't simply descriptive/correlational. | konfusinomicon wrote: | try nasal dilators. they can be a little uncomfortable to start | and some brands like to fall out mid sleep (or I subconsciously | take it out and drop it in the bed), but I can attest that I | sleep much deeper when I use one, or atleast the increase in | quality and quantity of dreams make me think I do. also I wake | up in the morning in the same position I fell asleep in and not | feeling tired more often, where I usually am sleep flopping all | over the place according to my other half | QuercusMax wrote: | I've had good luck with nasal strips (like Breathe Right) | along with an anti-snoring mouth appliance. I got one from my | dentist that worked OK but it cost $1K and broke after a | year. I've had good luck with the non-prescription SnoreRx | mouth appliance; not so great with ZQuiet which I found hurt | my front teeth. | proee wrote: | Exercise HARD. Try doing some Zone 2 cardio for +1 hours, and | see if this makes a difference. Or try some HIIT workout (Zone | 5) and see how your body responds. A good overall workout | machine is a rower. Try to set some kind of PR, like a 2k time | trial. Push beyond what you think is possible and see how your | body responds. My best sleeps are when I am physically | exhausted - so weak that I could fall asleep on a couch (which | is normally impossible for me). | gjstein wrote: | I have some mixed feelings about this. I used to do this ~10 | years ago when I was a distance runner, but now exercising so | hard will throw my body off in other ways and I don't feel | good having pushed so hard. Perhaps this is exactly the point | you're making, but I don't target zone 5 for long these days. | Deep sleep, sure, but at what cost to the rest of my body? | brigadier132 wrote: | All exercise causes fatigue and fatigue management is not | really discussed but it's actually not that difficult. Most | of your cardio should be done in zone 2 (look up the 80/20 | rule). You also may need to start with easier workouts and | work your way back up to what you expect you can do. I was | also a former endurance athlete and in college I stopped | exercising. Numerous times I kept on trying to get back | into it and I didn't succeed at getting back into it until | I realized that I needed to start from square 1. | | I'm not fully back into it yet mind you, but I'm running 20 | miles a week and lifting weights 6 days a week. A lot of my | workouts are zone 2. I sleep at least 8 hours and I get | roughly 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight from my | diet (i also make sure all my other macro and micro | nutrient needs are met). | | The excessive fatigue goes away if you are meeting your | nutrient and sleep requirements and not consuming drugs or | alcohol. Look up the "repeated bout effect". I feel like a | teenager again after getting my exercise, nutrition, and | sleep routine locked in. | | edit: To clarify what I mean about "the excessive fatigue | goes away", when I first started running there would be | mornings where I would wake up and have significant mental | and physical fatigue and the very thought of going to | exercise was repulsive to me. That goes away with time, | it's also a signal to maybe take it easy for the day and do | zone 2 cardio instead. | proee wrote: | For sure, there is some kind of optimal balance to target. | I've pushed myself so hard at times that I disrupted my | sleep. For example, I bought a used Kickr and decided to do | a FTP test at 9pm. This was not the smartest idea. | | Running has been the goto for me. Can push myself on a 5k | run in the evening (6pm) and when 10pm hits, I'm 2x more | tired than normal. | krumpet wrote: | And, depending on your situation, be careful. I was a | collegiate athlete back in the day and recently tried to | recapture some of that. The result? Torn labrum in my left | hip that really can't be repaired (per doctor). I'm all for | hard workouts, but respect your age (and prior injuries) if | you're going to go down this path. Definitely ease your way | into it. | kaba0 wrote: | To be a bit more careful in line with the other commenters' | worries, do not ever raise your heart rate above `200-age`, | that's a rough estimate. | barbariangrunge wrote: | What's the consensus about exercising when sick? Are you | supposed to get bed rest, or will the exercise help you? | f38zf5vdt wrote: | The study is about duration of deep sleep, not quality. And | that's an easy one, you can increase the amount of deep sleep | with cannabis. | | > Cannabis users demonstrated significantly longer sleep | latency and less REM sleep overall; no other differences | occurred in objective sleep measures between groups. | | https://bmjopenrespres.bmj.com/content/6/Suppl_1/A23.1 | joveian wrote: | Your link does not support your statement, which may not be | the case. Even your quoted bit suggests that cannabis just | caused less REM sleep that was replaced by taking longer to | get to sleep. I couldn't find a particularly good citataion | but some say that THC doesn't affect deep sleep (N3) while | CBD actually reduces it. All say that the situation is | unclear and needs more research. | sys32768 wrote: | Try no calories after 5PM. This gives me the deepest sleep and | very vivid dreams. | buildsjets wrote: | Try a Valerian root extract supplement about an hour before | your bedtime. It's extraordinary effective for me. | | https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/valerian | ac29 wrote: | It should be noted that Valerian works on the brains GABA | system in a very similar manner to alcohol or benzodiazapines | (valium, xanax, etc). This is why it is effective, but also | why it should only be used short term. | unsupp0rted wrote: | I take Magnesium an hour or so before bed and boy does my Mi | Band smartwatch show a difference in deep sleep those days. | | Is it "real" improved deep sleep? No idea. | | I do blood tests for Magnesium (and D3, B12, etc) every so | often to make sure I'm not poisoning myself. | barbariangrunge wrote: | What kills sleep for me is any feeling of unfinished business. | If I feel like there's a thing I need to do, good luck sleeping | unless I'm completely exhausted. So I think mental health is | really important, learning to have your mind at peace. Or | rather, learning, one by one, how to deal with the 1000 things | disturb you individually until there's not many left to keep | you up | deegles wrote: | There was a device called the Dreem headband that would use EEG | and specially timed tones to increase the duration of deep | sleep (look up "sleep spindles"). Unfortunately that specific | feature was blocked in the US and they took it off the market. | But I hope that something like that will be launched again. | oooyay wrote: | I went through a series of traumatic events before a deployment | and I stopped sleeping. I started experiencing psychosomatic | events where I'd see and feel bugs crawling on me. When I saw | the Wizard(tm) he had me start doing breathing exercises right | before bed, clearing my brain, and centering myself in a space | with no distractions. For me that was a endless white room. It | worked and I continue to do it today when I have stressful days | and I generally sleep on a consistent schedule and wake up | (nearly) on the hour of when I need to wake up. From my sleep | tracker I get roughly 1.5-2 hours of REM each night and roughly | 6-7 hours of "sleep". | barbariangrunge wrote: | Interesting. Did you learn anything else that helped you? | ulnarkressty wrote: | I have improved my deep sleep by taking lavender oil extract | capsules. They help relax and give me a 'knock-out' feeling | that rapidly induces sleep. I also don't wake up in the middle | of the night anymore when I take them. Unfortunately the | quality of the extract varies wildly, I would get the same | effect with 80mg as I would with 400mg from another supplier. | Doubly unfortunate is that one rapidly builds tolerance to it. | I use it every 3rd day, so I get a deep, restful sleep twice a | week. | | Quite a few sleep supplements have started adding it to their | formulas recently, using melatonin to initiate sleep and | lavender oil to sustain it. It remains to be seen what side | effects it has taken long term - there aren't any studies about | this available as far as I could tell. | krrrh wrote: | Just a note that lavender oil is estrogenic and topical use | has been associated with precocious puberty or gynocomastia | in children. Small doses in adults may not be a huge issue, | but I would not use it as a sleep aid for kids. | | https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/lavender- | tea-t... | pedalpete wrote: | We're doing neurostimulation to increase the effectiveness at | deep sleep, and have spoken with the research team at Monash | (where the study took place) which is looking to use our tech | in some of their future studies. | | There is a large body of research supporting this, a selection | of which you can find on our website at https://soundmind.co | | We don't alter the amount of time you sleep, we increase the | synchronous firing of neurons, which is the hallmark of deep | sleep. | interstice wrote: | I've been stuck on <30 minutes of deep sleep for as long as | I've had an Apple watch and probably much longer. Some | observations I recently made: | | - Japan has these drinks with 200mg of GABA, I don't know if it | was the 20,000 steps we were doing every day or the drinks but | on the days I had it deep sleep was often (not always) closer | to an hour. Strangely enough GABA is illegal here in NZ so I'm | trying L-Theanine with less obvious effects. | | - Exercise (even 2h+ moderate) doesn't have any effect, | adjusting caffeine doesn't seem to either | | - A warm shower immediately before bed strangely did seem to | have a considerable although not perfectly consistent effect | | - Just got put on Concerta for ADHD and although im getting | less sleep i'm also getting 40+ minutes of deep sleep. After | recently doing research into GABA + Dopamine + etc it seems to | be a bit of a brain circuit thing for me. | Obscurity4340 wrote: | + orgasm before washing up | CP3f6kMA wrote: | Interested what the ramifications to polphasic sleep are now | sireat wrote: | All the anecdotal indications is that polyphasic sleep is | simply acquiring significant deep sleep debt. | | That is: polyphasic sleep is not sustainable over a multi year | period. | | Humans can still do it while sailing in an ocean, on space | ships and similar extreme locations. | | However a significant relapse then follows in more "normal" | places. | | I'd love to see if someone was able to be productive for 3+ | years on polyphasic sleep. | | Personally I relapsed after a few months - maybe I never truly | transitioned. | user_7832 wrote: | > I'd love to see if someone was able to be productive for 3+ | years on polyphasic sleep. | | Buckminister Fuller apparently was close. > Fuller reportedly | kept this Dymaxion sleep habit for two years, before quitting | the routine because it conflicted with his business | associates' sleep habits. (From his wikipedia page) | meindnoch wrote: | Yikes. For me, this is an argument _against_ polyphasic | sleep. That guy was a total quack. | qwerty456127 wrote: | How do you improve it? Benzos apparently improve it but do these | improve it the real way? | rex_lupi wrote: | Benzos do NOT improve sleep quality, they just make you sleep. | They in fact reduce deep sleep. Melatonin supplementation may | help. | qwerty456127 wrote: | I don't have much problems falling asleep but I feel I slept | much better if I took a benzo so I occasionally (rarely, | humble doses) do whenever I want to really recharge myself | with what feels like a great night of good deep uninterrupted | sleep. In contrast to zolpidem (I tried it wehen I actually | used to have problems falling asleep): zolpidem helps to fall | asleep but promotes vivid (and visually beautiful) vigourous | dreams and harms resting so I feel satisfied but very tired | in the morning (like if lived through the Avatar movie | instead of sleeping). Such is my experience. What am I | missing? | | Melatonin supplementation seems a questionable idea except | for adjusting your circadian "inner clock" - according to | this article: | | https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/E4cKD9iTWHaE7f3AJ/melatonin-. | .. | n4r9 wrote: | Perhaps sleep quality doesn't always directly relate to how | rested you feel afterwards? I've been having a very varied | amount of sleep for the last few months due to a newborn | baby. It can definitely happen that a good 5-6 hour stretch | (the max I get these days) leads to me feeling _more_ | tired. Sometimes running on fumes actually feels easier and | more wakeful. | rex_lupi wrote: | Not nearly as questionable as taking benzos, in any case. | artursapek wrote: | Nope, melatonin is best avoided. Read "Why We Sleep". | floxy wrote: | "Matthew Walker's "Why We Sleep" Is Riddled with Scientific | and Factual Errors" | | https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/ | qwerty456127 wrote: | It seems like Sci Hub stopped working. All the papers I recently | found on HN and tried to reat appear unavailable. | pegasus wrote: | Anna's Archive got them all and then some. | qwerty456127 wrote: | Nice. Thank you. | hnthrowaway0315 wrote: | Getting enough sleep is difficult enough, now we need to get | enough deep sleep... | | The only way for me to get enough good sleep is to either quit my | job (without worrying the $$) or getting rid of the kid. None is | doable. | anonzzzies wrote: | I have been able to do lucid dreaming since I was 18 (over 30 | years ago) and according to different sleep trackers I'm almost | always over 25% deep sleep, sometimes a lot more. I guess they | are related, but don't know for sure. | meindnoch wrote: | And what do you do in your lucid dreams? | anonzzzies wrote: | Depends on what it is; from shooting zombies to negotiating | with a mob boss (last night). I cannot really guide what it's | about but I usually have control. I remember most and I | usually want to get back in when it's time to get up. | mebassett wrote: | "We also examined whether genetic risk for Alzheimer's Disease or | brain volumes suggestive of early neurodegeneration were | associated with a reduction in slow-wave sleep. We found that a | genetic risk factor for Alzheimer's disease, but not brain | volume, was associated with accelerated declines in slow wave | sleep" | | This sounds like the arrow of causation is pointing the other | way. | notlisted wrote: | Cause and effect is also questioned in (much larger) studies: | https://www.healthline.com/health-news/the-surprising-link-b... | | Interesting quotes: | | " | | The study found that [ _]longer[_ ] time spent in bed (TIB) was | associated with significantly [ _]increased[_ ] dementia risk. | Those in bed for more than 8 hours were far more likely to show | a cognitive decline during a Mini Mental State Examination | (MMSE) | | [...] | | The time individuals went to bed was also highlighted by | researchers as a critical contributing factor [...] The | research paper stated that "every 1 hour advance in bedtime | [before 10 pm] was associated with a 25% increased risk of | dementia." | | " | soulofmischief wrote: | I've had chronic insomnia my entire life, and when I do sleep, it | is never deep sleep, to the point that I typically retain enough | brain activity to lucid dream. | | Dementia isn't an if for me, it's a when. I also think that they | have the causation backwards. | loeg wrote: | > I also think that they have the causation backwards. | | You think you already have dementia and it is causing poor | sleep? | soulofmischief wrote: | The root causes that lead to my lifelong chronic insomnia are | likely the same root causes that will lead to dementia. | Genetics, environment. And that says nothing of my ADHD and | physical disability which lead to not exercising enough and | phases of poor dietary choices, it all swirls into a high | risk factor for dementia. | kylebenzle wrote: | It does seem to be like 90% about being privileged enough | to spend a lot of time outside in the sun, running around | with people in a group. Maybe in the distant future we will | revert to this kind of hunter gater life just because this | one kinda sucks. | soulofmischief wrote: | Modern life is literally driving us crazy. | loeg wrote: | Ah, some third variable. | lukas099 wrote: | > Dementia isn't an if for me, it's a when. | | This seems like an unbeneficial belief to harbor in oneself. | yawgmoth wrote: | I currently am stuck at a six hour cycle. Any tips to turn that | into eight? | globular-toast wrote: | From someone who sleeps 8 hours almost every night: just go to | sleep earlier and /or wake up later. | | Impossible to give any better advice without any further | information. Is the problem not enough hours in the day (e.g. | time wasted on stuff like commuting etc.)? Or are you just | unable to stay asleep longer than 6 hours? | densh wrote: | And there is a whole other problem of not being able to fall | asleep. Reducing caffeine helps but not still it's very | difficult for some. | globular-toast wrote: | Reading works for me. Recently I've improved that even more | using an eReader. | | My room is completely dark when I go to sleep. I use | blackout curtains and have removed any sources of light | from my room. In the summer it gets light very early in the | UK (~04:00) and I require ventilation so I also wear an eye | mask. I use a fan to mask any background noise and, in | summer, this is blowing directly on me to keep me cool. I | use a wool duvet which I found the best for temperature | regulation; I require a weighty covering even when it's | warm. | | I use a Kobo which has an adjustable frontlight that can go | both very low and very warm (redish). I set the Kobo's | backlight to the lowest and warmest possible setting. I lie | on my side with the Kobo on its side leaning on an adjacent | pillow such that I don't have to hold it. Turning pages | requires a light tap; there is no scrolling or swiping | involved. At some point after a few pages of Iain M. Banks, | or whatever I'm reading at the time (usually science | fiction), I fall asleep. The Kobo automatically switches | itself off after I stop turning pages and I wake in the | morning with it next to me (or sometimes I've moved it but | can't remember when/why). | | It's important not to use something like TV that you need | to actively switch off at some point and, if you use an | object like a book or eReader, make sure it won't fall and | wake you up when you start to nod off. Definitely don't | hold it up with your hands. Don't use a phone because | scrolling etc. is far too active and backlit screens just | don't seem conducive to sleep. An eReader is perfect | because it means you can turn the lights off but the | frontlit e-ink screen is more like a book than a phone. | | This method has been tried and tested with a partner in the | same bed. You just need to make sure any objects don't fall | on or get tangled up with said partner. I have a pillow | system propped up by my bedside table for this purpose. | deepsquirrelnet wrote: | I used to easily sleep 8 hours, then I had a kid with colic, | followed by 6 months of back to back to back illness from | daycare. Now I can't sleep longer than 3-4 hours consecutively. | | For me, I think part of the problem is not having enough hours | in the day to take care of myself. If you've gotten very busy | with work or life, it's hard to do the things you need to do to | get healthy sleep. | user_7832 wrote: | You could look at biphasic or polyphasic sleep. If it makes | you feel any better, humans would apparently sleep in 2 | chunks for most of history (waking up for a few hours at | midnight-3am and sleeping again). As long as the total sleep | duration is adequate, some research shows that it's not | necessary to get 8 consecutive hours. | bityard wrote: | > humans would apparently sleep in 2 chunks for most of | history (waking up for a few hours at midnight-3am and | sleeping again) | | I have read this claim for decades now, but I have trouble | believing it. To me, a claim about pre-civilization human | behavior doesn't have a whole lot of merit unless it can be | explained as being evolutionarily advantageous to mammals | in general or humans in particular. Humans are diurnal and | I can't imagine a scenario in which "wasting" a few hour of | potential sleep is worth it somehow in the middle of the | night when it's dark and there's nothing to do anyway. | | The closest I can come is that _maybe_ some small | percentage of early humans were polyphasic sleepers, which | benefited the tribe by watching out for a pack of hungry | wolves or enemy tribe attacking in the middle of the night | or whatever. | lawgimenez wrote: | Same here, since having a kid I only averaged 4 hours of | sleep for over 5 years now. In the morning I'm just gonna | coffee drunk myself to last the whole day and night. I think | I need a plan at some point in the near future. | leokennis wrote: | Disclaimer: I am not getting 8 hours consistently, but working | on it... | | For me the most beneficial is to reduce the fear of missing | out. Especially if you have kids, the tendency is to want to | spend the evening hours when they are already in bed to "live | your old life": game, watch movies, do other hobbies or | activities. And then you go to bed too late. | | I am trying to accept that I can watch maybe 1 movie per month, | watch maybe 2 series per year, and read at most 1 book per week | in the time between ~20:00 and 22:00 that my kids are asleep | and I can spend freely without impacting my 8 hours of sleep. | | So, every year 50 interesting movies come out. I'll never see | 38 of them. I'll never read that interesting longread. I will | never read Liu Cixin's "The Three-Body Problem". | gardenhedge wrote: | Seems ideal if you're feeling okay. 8 is just a 'magic' number | sys32768 wrote: | My mother was the picture of health and happiness when she got | early onset Alzheimer's. | | She was always a very light sleeper, to the point she couldn't | even sleep in the same bed with dad for many years. | | As I have nothing lifestyle related to blame for her disease, I | wonder whether her brain's glymphatic system was awry. | artursapek wrote: | I recommend the book "Why We Sleep" - it opened my eyes to the | importance of a full 8 hours of sleep. So many people are | sabotaging their health and professional performance by only | sleeping like 5-7 hours. | bethekind wrote: | An interesting tidbit. Higher Testosterone levels are associated | with lighter sleeping habits. Something to be aware of. | | So theoretically woman would have lower rates of dementia | durpleDrank wrote: | I have some unconventional sleep tips for those interested. | | DURPLEDRANK'S GUIDE TO BETTER SLEEP: Line your | sleeping room with books. They are an inexpensive way to | soundproof your room. If you have noisy neighbors upstairs, | you'll "hear" them, but more importantly, you won't "feel" it. | Use comfortable earplugs and a baggy winter hat as a sleep mask. | Sleep masks can be uncomfortable, so this is a great alternative. | Play a BROWNIAN NOISE loop on speakers in your room. You can | easily generate this in Audacity with a few mouse clicks. | Take antacids before bed. Many sleep problems are linked to acid | reflux. Drinking carbonated water or water with baking soda can | make you feel tired instantly. For any scientists out there, | please credit me for this discovery. If you have acid reflux, | your brain won't let you sleep. Stay warm. Being | warm often makes you sleepy, although the reason isn't clear. | Use red lights in your sleep room to avoid blue light. Replace | your reading lamp with a red light to help your brain switch into | sleep mode. Limit screen time. Dim the brightness | and enable blue light blocking mode on your devices. Older | devices may be less disruptive to sleep than modern ones. | Keep a notepad for quick Google searches. Whenever you have a | random thought, jot it down on a to-do list to avoid grabbing | your device. This helps you stay off screens. | Consider taking 1g of melatonin, but note that it may not be very | effective if you have acid reflux. Elevate your | sleeping position to combat acid reflux. Even if you don't feel | it, you might have some built-up reflux if you burp or fart after | drinking carbonated water. Invest in blackout | curtains. Cover every blinking light or power LED in | your room with electrical tape to create a pitch-black | environment. | | TL;DR: In my journey to fix my sleep, the most critical factors | are 1) managing acid reflux, 2) soundproofing and reducing light | in the room, and 3) using red light. | musha68k wrote: | The book insulation tip is great and could be a good segue into | replacing reading habits for actual books vs e-reader / other | displays. | | Even with "nightshift red colours" I could stay up reading for | hours vs even with something very interesting to me in actual | book form + warm secondary light source = getting sleepy and | quickly so. | | I'm guessing melatonin does get depressed significantly as soon | as you start looking directly into a light source. | hackernewds wrote: | if you have an e-reader swap to the Kindle paper versions and | dark mode | roldie wrote: | I assume you mean 1mg of melatonin? | | Also, I've learned that less melatonin is actually more | effective, so 0.1 MG or 0.3mg is likely a better dosage | ada1981 wrote: | I put together this audio for falling to sleep fast, using the | military method from "Relax and Win" by Bud Winters. | | - About 100 years ago the US military developed a technique for | helping fighter pilots rapidly fall asleep. About 95% of people | find this helpful. Use this guided sleep sequence to relax your | entire body and have a deeper, faster, more restorative sleep. | From your friends at http://EarthPilot.org | | https://open.spotify.com/episode/0uXWxpjLrIcMMWzoFMCRkq | trwhite wrote: | This is something I think about a lot. | | I sleepwalk and sometimes have night terrors (where I hallucinate | an intruder or spiders on the walls/ceiling). Lately I've been | having them almost every day, despite practicing good bedtime | habits. | | Am I going to have early onset dementia? I wake up almost every | morning with a headache from sleep deprivation | johnchristopher wrote: | Generic comment: have you checked for sleep apnea ? | kylebenzle wrote: | Good sleep seems to be a component of long life (1). Intense | daily exercise seems to be the best "treatment" we have for | sleep issues. | | Importantly, there are NO medications known to help with | "sleep" all those pills they sell as "sleep-aids" are | technically called sedatives, or "hypnotics" medically and | don't give the same benefits of sleep. | | 1. https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking- | Dreams/dp/1501... | marknutter wrote: | > where I hallucinate an intruder or spiders on the | walls/ceiling | | This sounds more like sleep paralysis than it does night | terrors. | jimmaswell wrote: | Have you checked your carbon monoxide detectors? | captainclam wrote: | Wow, are you me? I also experience this specifically. The | hallucinations tend to be "spiders" or intruders (spiders in | quotes because they're more shadowy and ephemeral than your | standard tarantula) and incidentally, it's been "ramping up" | for me lately, to the extent that it's a pretty dependable, | nightly occurrence. I too think about it a lot and worry about | the early-onset dementia angle. | | Do you have any conditions in the broad spectrum of "anxiety" | disorders? I've had a pretty rocky relationship with my | sympathetic nervous system; variably severe anxiety, some panic | attacks, occasional bouts of depersonalization/derealization. | It seems pretty likely that these symptoms spring from the same | root cause as the "night terrors." Fortunately I'm not | personally aware of a link between these issues and dementia, | though I wouldn't be surprised if someone replies with a link | to some study that ruins my day. | manicennui wrote: | I feel like we basically know what we should be doing to avoid | many illnesses. Get better sleep, be more active, eat better, | etc. The problem is almost always finding the willpower to make | the changes and maintain the good habits long term. | bitcoin_anon wrote: | This is being too hard on oneself. Getting better sleep, being | more active, and eating better are problems of modernity. When | it got dark outside, our ancestors got sleepy. There was no | need to exert willpower. Chastising oneself for not having | enough willpower to flourish in an environment we were not | designed for is not productive. | | Instead, let us change our environments to better suit the | primates we still are. | armada651 wrote: | This. We have created a society where healthy eating, quality | sleep and sufficient exercise are all considered luxuries | rather than the default. | | The cheapest food options are the unhealthiest. Hours of | overtime and long commutes prevent sufficient sleep. And | exercise is considered a leisure activity. | mcbutterbunz wrote: | Wouldn't it be nice to wake up when your body said it's got | enough sleep? | manicennui wrote: | I agree, but I guess I don't have any hope that we will fix | any of these problems. We continue to make all of this worse. | Many of our jobs wouldn't exist if we weren't working on | making these problems worse. | nine_zeros wrote: | Has anyone tried using lightweight wearables like whoop that | claim to help improve sleep and recovery? Wondering how | successful these wearables are. | bennyz wrote: | Check "The Quantified Scientist" on youtube, he does very good | wearable reviews and compares them with sleep labs | speak_plainly wrote: | I have no issue with falling asleep but the quality of sleep and | staying asleep has been an issue. | | Taking magnesium threonate has helped immensely (The brand I buy | is MagEnhance). | | Using an Apple Watch as a tracker, my sleep patterns have | improved greatly including deep sleep, but I wonder if it can get | better. | TedDoesntTalk wrote: | Something like 50% of adults do not get enough magnesium. | | "Up to 50 percent of US population is magnesium deficient" | https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180226122548.h... | | There are numerous sources for this figure; google if you want | others. | steve_adams_86 wrote: | The way I made things better (though it's always an ongoing | battle) was getting more consistent about a few key things. | Maybe you already do this, but the key strategy for me goes | something like: | | - go to bed earlier than you think you need to (9-9:30pm for | me) | | - get outside and moving as early as possible. Ideally in | bright light, and without a time-sensitive objective. For | example, leave early to walk to work so it can be leisurely. Or | wake up early enough that you can just go for a 15-20m walk | with no destination and wake up your body. | | - No screens past 6pm or so. I allow my watch, but I hide my | phone. I will let it ruin my sleep over and over and over. I'm | only a hairless ape, and I need to plan to prevent myself from | doing ape things. The watch doesn't seem to harm my sleep, but | it functions as my alarm/quick way to set reminders/way to see | the time or weather/etc. But I need to keep the phone far away. | | Different things work for different people, and maybe you're | already pretty close to something like this anyway. I only | mention it because I started with magnesium threonate too, and | it was a long path to better sleep. I wish I figured this out | 15 years ago! | ge96 wrote: | Sleep is when I genuinely feel peace of mind, soon as I'm | conscious something's wrong | | Goal in life is to sleep/wake whenever, bad thing is I can sleep | a lot too eg. 14 hrs but I normally operate on 5 so I can | tolerate my crap job | Duhck wrote: | I've been going down this rabbit hole for a while and don't have | any conclusive answers. | | I have always slept 7.5 hours in my adult life. I wake up a | couple times a night briefly (and usually recall 1-2 time a night | that it happens) but fall back asleep quickly. | | My room is dark, and cold. Most of the times when I wake up it's | because I am warm from my mattress (casper wave). | | I am now purchasing a chilling pad for my side of the mattress to | address that so I sleep deeper and more consistently. | | I take magnesium because I am very active and have suffered for | the last year or so from hypnic jerks, which are terrifying but | have gone away since I started taking magnesium supplements | before bed. | | I occasionally have a hard time falling asleep or wake up early | and cant get back to bed, but I still average 7.5hrs over a year | -- and over 3 years since ive been tracking my sleep nightly. | | I get sufficient REM, dont drink alcohol, gave up weed, and only | have caffeine from 9am - 11am daily (1 coffee usually, sometimes | a shot of espresso in addition). | | Yet my deep sleep averages are ~45 minutes a night. | | I am about to be 39, and I am unclear what to change beyond the | mattress cooling pad which I will measure. | | I've also started cold showers when waking up (60 seconds of cold | to end my shower, working towards 2 minutes). | | My family has zero history of Dementia so I am not as worried, | but I am concerned with staying in tip top cognitive shape if | possible. | | I am tempted to try a sleep study and see what I might learn. | | Edit: Lots of comments to address here. | | - I exercise 60-90 minutes daily. | | - I play a high level of hockey 4 days a week, snowboard or | mountain bike 5 days a week. | | - I am slightly over weight by scale, but I am just an athletic | build. | | - I eat healthy and cook nearly every meal I eat (I live in an | expensive ski town with only high end eateries so I avoid them). | Lots of brown rice, protein, fruit, and veggies. | | - I walk 30-60 minutes a day (active dog). | | - I get plenty of sunlight (within 30 minutes of waking) | ben_jones wrote: | You've been very thorough with physical/biological variables | which would suggest maybe psychological factors could be | impacting you. | | Do you have a high amount of ambient stress in your life? | Existential fears? Past traumas? Unfulfilled responsibilities? | Debt? | avalys wrote: | Do you have any complaints about your sleeping other than being | unhappy about this metric some app is reporting? | Duhck wrote: | Not really. I feel tired during the day sometimes but way | less than when I used to work in an office every day. Usually | a quick walk shakes it off if I have no cardio planned. | | I think I'm mostly trying to understand what I can and cannot | control in my life as I age | Isthatablackgsd wrote: | > I am tempted to try a sleep study and see what I might learn. | | I strongly recommend to get sleep study, they will help to find | the root of the symptoms. | | 10 years ago, I have issues with my sleeping pattern, waking up | tired and still tired during the day. After my sleep study, I | discovered I have sleep apnea which affects how I breathe | during my sleeping cycle. After the diagnosis, I got a CPAP | from my insurance and been using it ever since. It improved my | sleep quality and I am able to dream more often than before. | | If you have the same diagnosis as mine in the future, it will | take some time to get used to Bi/CPAP. It can take up to a year | to get used to it, it took me two years get used to wearing a | mask. I was horrified to learn from my Somnologist that 90% of | his patients are not consistent with CPAP usage or don't bother | to use them. I know a friend's husband, who is a Physician | Assistant, have the same diagnosis and refused to use the CPAP. | His wife been begging him to use it because she can hear how he | sleep during the night. Still to this day, he refused to use it | and still complaining about the sleep quality. | 2devnull wrote: | "90% of his patients are not consistent with CPAP usage" | | That's high. Surely someone can post scientific evidence that | cpap helps with sleep despite the fact there's almost 100% | non-compliance. | | /s | y-c-o-m-b wrote: | It's been well over a decade of CPAP usage every night for | me, but I still haven't gotten used to the stupid mask. I | fight with it literally every single night. I own about 4-5 | different masks and have tried probably double that number of | variants in an attempt to reduce my frustration with it. I | can't sleep without out it though, so there's no other | option. I wake up gasping for air within ~3 minutes of sleep. | That makes me a 100% compliant user over many years. My sleep | neurologist was blown away by that statistic, citing the same | issues you described: most people do not consistently use | their CPAP machines. | mattgreenrocks wrote: | Can you even be admitted to a sleep study with a complaint | about the amount of deep sleep? | whoodle wrote: | I've had two sleep studies. I have once been diagnosed with | type 2 narcolepsy and then later as my sleep hygiene improved | that was changed to idiopathic hypersomnia. I don't have | sleep apnea. | | At any time I call basically fall asleep within 5 minutes and | I'm always tired. Has anyone else dealt with this? | | I tried modafinil but felt horrible for weeks as I hoped my | body would adjust. I've also considered armodafinil, but I | fear the same effects. | | The doctor wants me to try xyrem but it scares me, doesn't | have a lot of studies on it, and it's basically a nonstarter | because I have young jerks and need to be able to wake up if | needed. | | So all of that to say, is dementia inevitable for me? My | guess is that I just sleep terrible. | | Any advice is welcome. | herniatedeel wrote: | I'd at least try the xyrem. I've tried it - didn't work for | me (my sleep issues are caused by something else), but it's | not as incapacitating as it's made out to sound. | whoodle wrote: | *young kids lol | | Hell of a typo | brigadier132 wrote: | Some ideas for things to try | | 1. Eat at the same time every day. When you eat impacts your | circadian rhythm. | | 2. Sleep and wake up at the same time every day. | | 3. Exercise, fatigue from exercise is known to improve sleep. | | 4. Expose yourself to sunlight first thing in the morning. | | 5. Lose weight. | nightski wrote: | I'm not an expert and you should probably listen to the other | comments but for me it turned out to be stress. I have been | using a Garmin tracker extensively and when I go on a longer | vacation and stop thinking about work my stress drops | tremendously and correspondingly my deep sleep goes up. The | Garmin is not super accurate, but I find it does a good job | pointing out trends. Something to consider and it's a lot | harder fix than just reducing caffeine consumption or stopping | alcohol consumption. | mattgreenrocks wrote: | I'm convinced that stress is the #1 killer of deep sleep. | | Everyone: "you should be less stressed for better health" | | Also everyone: "you should work more and take on more | responsibilities at work" | | At 41, all I want to do is take care of myself and my family | well. Everything else in my life can fight over the remaining | bits of time. | gopher2000 wrote: | > Also everyone: "you should work more and take on more | responsibilities at work" | | Eh this doesn't sound like something everyone says. | Duhck wrote: | Stress is hard measure so I don't have a way to say I am more | or less stressed than normal. | | As another poster asked -- I have had tons of trauma but also | put work in to overcome it. I have a great, healthy life. | | I always work hard to quiet my mind but sometimes its hard | to. I am an entrepreneur but rarely find myself ruminating | late at night about it (these days). When I am stressed I | find it harder to fall asleep for sure, but that isn't as | often as it was when I was younger | __MatrixMan__ wrote: | > I take magnesium because I am very active and have suffered | for the last year or so from hypnic jerks, which are terrifying | but have gone away since I started taking magnesium supplements | before bed. | | I'm guessing you're taking magnesium L-threonate (Sometimes | goes by Magtein). If not, it's worth a try. | | > I've also started cold showers when waking up (60 seconds of | cold to end my shower, working towards 2 minutes). | | I do something similar. 3-min cold showers in the morning, yoga | to regain the heat, then meditation, then breakfast. I feel | it's relevant to my struggles with attention (doesn't throw me | off like adderall does) | | Best I ever slept was when I was cycling 45 minutes to and from | work every day. It looks like you're doing quite a lot (of the | same things I do) but if you're interested in throwing more in | there... there's soemthing magical about the kind of cardio | that lets you explore your limits. | rapsey wrote: | I've had a long struggle with sleep. The most effective | supplements are: | | * magnesium (threonate form before bed) | | * D3 BUT MUST BE TAKEN WITH magnesium. 5000IU + 500mg | magnesium. These two are linked. Taking D3 without magnesium | can make a magnesium deficiency worse. This made a monumental | difference for me. | | * B complex also very important | | * Glycine improved my quality of sleep | maayank wrote: | Do you take the vitamin d daily at nighttime? | rapsey wrote: | I take it after breakfast. | InSteady wrote: | Vitamin D is fat soluble so it must be take with meals to | be absorbed. | LinuxBender wrote: | The B-100 complex has helped me a lot. I have to use it twice | a day to undo the damage done from drinking energy drinks | that have high dosages of inactive B vitamins _which compete | with the active forms_ and was leading to deficiency and | nerve issues. | lukas099 wrote: | Maybe you should just not worry about it so much. | mirekrusin wrote: | I discovered by accident that glycine (~3000 mg) + NAC (they | also sell it combined as GlyNAC) before bed made my sleep | noticeably deeper. I'm not taking it to cure sleep but the | effect is strong enough that I have noticed change, quite big | actually. | | ps. NAC can have sulfury/rotten-egg like scent, don't throw it | away thinking it's outdated or something, it's normal | Mistletoe wrote: | I don't see any mention of exercise in your post. | | >However, we do know that moderate aerobic exercise increases | the amount of slow wave sleep you get. Slow wave sleep refers | to deep sleep, where the brain and body have a chance to | rejuvenate. | Duhck wrote: | Updated my post, I get 60-90 minutes of cardio a day and | 30-60 of walking (zone 2) | theptip wrote: | Having gone down this route recently, I can +1 the cooling pad. | I used Ooler, there are many options now. | | However also worth considering a better mattress, memory foam | is really hot. I just upgraded to an innerspring base / latex & | microcoil top, and my previous issues with overheating are | gone. YMMV, there are arguments for cooling even if your | passive situation isn't too hot. | dota_fanatic wrote: | As another poster linked, you may be a slow caffeine | metabolizer. I am and avoiding caffeine entirely makes a big | difference. | | Another thing that might be making a difference is what you do | in the hour to two hours before sleep. If I do anything | exciting, like sports, suspenseful media & games, or anything | analytical, then that will delay how quickly my body relaxes | into later in the night, which messes up the beginning of the | night when deep sleep mostly occurs. | | Lastly, if you're measuring your deep sleep based off of a | device that isn't on your head, then take that data with a huge | grain of salt. I compared sleep data from an Oura ring with the | Dreem 2 headband and the ring was consistently so wrong as to | be useless for driving better sleep behavior. | Duhck wrote: | This is a great recommendation -- I dont really need caffeine | but its a ritual I adore. I can definitely give it up so I | think its where I can start. Thank you! | krrrh wrote: | See my comment above about using chocolate as a bridge to | deal with caffeine withdrawal. For me the brain fog and | headaches always made it hard to transition to getting off | caffeine, but chocolate is a good methadone for a week. | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38103097 | herf wrote: | I avoid all "cooling foam" or "gel foam" as it has a relatively | fixed capacity to absorb heat. In other words, it seems cold in | the store and also for the first few hours of the night. But | after it does its phase-change magic, it gets _dramatically_ | hotter and can wake you up around the time cortisol starts | increasing like 3-4AM. | bityard wrote: | Can confirm... I have a foam mattress that claims to have the | fancy cooling stuff built in. It's actually all-around fine | in the summer when the temps are 75F inside and I can sleep | with few/no blankets, but I live in the Midwest and the house | thermostat is set to heat up to 65F for 2/3 of the year. For | the first 15 minutes, it's like crawling into a very soft | refrigerator. And a few hours later, I'll wake up dehydrated | and soaked in sweat. | | I've managed to mostly tame it by putting a quilt or two | under the bottom sheet. | mrDmrTmrJ wrote: | Nothing has helped my sleep more than using 3M medical tape to | tape my mouth shut during sleep. So I'm forced to breath | through my noise when I sleep. (Or I wake up and remove the | tape if I'm stuffed up.) | | I had sleep issues all my life. My dentist said it looked like | I had sleep issues (one side of my teether pushed on more than | the others) and a surgeon recommended increasing the size of my | nasal cavity. But I didn't want surgery. When the book "Breath: | The New Science of a Lost Art" by James Nestor I saw several | unrelated people report success with this. It's completely | changed my life and I wish I had started this long ago. | | (Obviously not medical advice, I'm not a doctor at all, do your | own research etc.) | hattmall wrote: | Have you ever tried a different sleep schedule? Or have you | ever noticed a difference in a different timezone? | | For me I get deep sleep best between around 8-10Pm and about | 9Am-1pm. My sleep at night is fairly restless even if I try and | do all the proper steps, but I can get great sleep pretty much | no matter what during those hours. | drzaiusapelord wrote: | For a lot of people, zero caffeine is the only way to get | proper sleep. | aantix wrote: | If you're a slow metabolizer of caffeine like I am, stay away | from caffeine. | | CYP1A2 | | https://www.geneticlifehacks.com/liver-detox-genes-cyp1a2/ | | The difference in sleep quality is dramatic. | | If I have caffeine, even a small 20mg at 7am, I'm up 4-6 times | the next night, going to the bathroom, superficial sleep. | | Without caffeine, I'm in a deep sleep. So much so that I don't | change positions at all, and my body slightly aches from being in | the same position so long. My bladder nearly feels like it's | going to burst, because I've slept so long. | | There was a study I saw while back that said eating cruciferous | vegetables speeds up caffeine metabolism. I've tried that, but | that didn't seem to help. The caffeine still seemed to disturb my | sleep. I tried BrocoMax, a broccoli supplement, that didn't seem | to help either. | | Exercise helps a little bit. But it's still not the quality of | sleep I receive with zero caffeine. | | I think much faster when I drink caffeine. Recently I revisited | this issue and tried micro-dosing 5-Hour Energy (2mL). At first | it seemed promising. But then it seems to slowly build up in my | system. Sleep quality deteriorates slower. But the deterioration | is there. I prematurely posted this status. | | https://twitter.com/aantix/status/1706020516060971399 | | Sadly, it doesn't appear that I can drink caffeine and have | quality sleep. | | I hate that I have to choose. | lpa22 wrote: | It took me far too long to realize caffeine was the cause of my | restless sleep issues. Even just 80mg at 10am. I thought it was | stress. There's definitely millions of other people that don't | realize caffeine is killing them slowly due to lack of good | sleep, and just continue the cycle. | dharma1 wrote: | same here - I can still feel the effects of a cup of coffee at | midnight that I drank at 10am | 2devnull wrote: | For some people, the effects of caffeine seem to be permanent. | I am one. | mattgreenrocks wrote: | Can you expand on this? | 2devnull wrote: | Not a lot. | shrimp_emoji wrote: | The alertness and anxiety just stacks with every cup and | never wears off. The next day, it's even higher with that | day's caffeine. The next day, moreso. Eventually, you | reach, and then surpass, supernatural levels of mental | overdrive, like cheesing INT in Morrowind, and you never | come back down. With every sip, you know nothing will | ever be the same. | dmd wrote: | > small 20mg | | And if you're someone like me - beware that 'decaf' really | isn't. Even as little as *5 mg* of caffeine causes me | everything from sleeplessness to migraines (verified with a | double blind study administered by my wife!) | olalonde wrote: | Nitpick: assuming your wife knew which sample was decaf and | which was regular coffee, it would be a single-blind | experiment. | dmd wrote: | Correct, which is why I said it was double-blind. | matsz wrote: | Could you describe the steps you took to perform this | experiment? I'm curious and would love to do that myself. | dmd wrote: | It's definitely easier with a 3rd party, but here's what | we did. Note that before this experiment I hadn't had any | caffeine at all for several years because I was pretty | sure it affected me badly. | | (1) Experimenter dissolved measured weight caffeine | powder in water, and divided it into various measured | portions, and labeled them with unique numbers. Then made | identical measured portions of pure water, also labeled. | She sealed the number assignments in an envelope. | | (2) On experiment days, I chose a water portion, | recording the day and number in secret - she could not | see which portion I chose or what number it was. I then | poured the water into whatever (zero caffeine!) drink (or | whatever else I could mix it in with) I was having. I | used drinks and food with strong enough flavors that I | definitely could not taste the possible caffeine | addition. | | So now neither of us knows whether I took one of the | caffeine ones. | | (3) I recorded the day's results. | LeafItAlone wrote: | How did you account for the placebo effect? | | Decaf coffee tastes about the same as regular coffee (some | people claim to tell the difference, but I can't except that | when I get decaf it's the cheap mass produced stuff and for | regular coffee I like to support local roasters). Maybe the | taste was triggering the same effects? | dmd wrote: | See my comment here. | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38101401 | yangikan wrote: | Is there a place where I can get a whole genome sequencing and | where they don't sell my data? | conradev wrote: | I used Dante Labs and asked them to delete my data under the | GDPR after downloading it | | They give you all the data - raw reads and a whole aligned | genome for a fairly reasonable price | aantix wrote: | Nebula Genomics has a pretty good privacy policy. | | https://nebula.org/ownership-of-your-genetic-data/ | astrange wrote: | Selling data is the credit card and ad tech industry, not | genetics. Your 23AndMe data has approximately no value unless | you take the research surveys, since there's nothing to | associate it with. | conradev wrote: | I also hate that I have to choose. I purchased 10mg caffeine | gummies and was optimistic, but, like you, even if I have _two_ | at 7am I feel the effects at 11pm when trying to sleep. | | I wish I could alter the amount or intake mechanism and be | fine, but it's fundamentally what happens once it's in my | bloodstream. | pastor_bob wrote: | >My bladder nearly feels like it's going to burst, because I've | slept so long. | | I don't think having to pee has anything to do with the type of | sleep you get. I've heard, if anything, it's a symptom of sleep | apnea. | Afforess wrote: | I'm an A/C, neither AA nor CC. Not a lot out there on that, | some say "slow" is dominant, but that leaves me confused | because I have none of the problems you've described and I | drink 200-400mg of caffeine a day (monster energy + 3x 12oz | soda). | UniverseHacker wrote: | A/C is still considered a slow metabolizer. This is just one | allele that affects caffeine metabolism... there is still | probably a ton of variability from person to person within | the same allele here. I am A/C and have all of the problems | described here. | kieranmaine wrote: | Apologies for the lazy comment (I know I could do the research, | but I'm busy atm). | | I 100% agree this is an affect of caffeine, but I'm also | interested in what research on the following shows: | | 1. How does caffeine compare to other factors (stress, | exercise, diet) in affecting sleep? 2. Does caffeine have a | placebo affect on sleep quality? | | I ask these questions, as I've found that caffeine does affect | my sleep quality, but at the same time stress levels are | probably a better predictor of how well I sleep. | amelius wrote: | Any way to boost CYP1A2 or any other gene involved in coffee | metabolism? | aantix wrote: | Nothing that I have found. | | Eating cruciferous vegetables, sleep, nothing has seemed to | help much. | | I tried taking BroccoMax for its Sulforaphane content. As | suggested in the article below. Even when taking BroccoMax, | ingesting a cup of coffee, my sleep still suffered. | | Fast Caffeine Metabolism for Better Sleep with Sulforaphane | | https://burtonator.wordpress.com/2012/04/12/fast-caffeine- | me... | TedDoesntTalk wrote: | The linked article mentions cruciferous vegetables | hombre_fatal wrote: | I don't know how people put up with waking up to pee. Is it | really worth it to eat/drink within a few hours of bedtime if | it's going to wake you up at 3am? | johnmaguire wrote: | On the flip side, I typically drink 16-32 oz of water before | sleeping and never wake up needing to pee. | ryandetzel wrote: | If I drink past 2pm I'm up...weird but only started after I | was 40 really. I'm starting to think my sleep just sucks so | my mind is more aware that I have to go and not that | something has changed with my bladder | LeafItAlone wrote: | I believe that may be an indicator of an enlarged prostate, | if you have one. | RoyalHenOil wrote: | It's a circadian rhythm thing. You get into a habit of peeing | at specific times, and that can include in the middle of the | night. | | You can fix the habit by waiting a half hour longer to pee | each night until you can make it to the morning, but this | does involve lying awake in bed for a while, which is much | worse for your sleep than just getting up quickly to pee. | rcconf wrote: | I have the same issue, it's truly unfortunate. What's odd is I | forget about what caffeine does to my sleep and after a few | weeks/months of drinking it, I'm wondering why I'm so stressed, | tired and can't get ANY sleep. | | I stop drinking coffee and BAM, I sleep like a baby. It doesn't | MATTER when I drink it, I can drink it at 6AM and I will not | have a good deep sleep. I am unsure if this is coincidence, but | I also notice I remember way less dreams when I am on caffeine | than not. I also find it's a compounding effect which is why | it's slightly annoying. | | If I drink 1 cup, in 2 weeks, my sleep will be fine so I will | think, okay, it's not the caffeine. Then I will continue | drinking it for weeks and suddenly I haven't had a good nights | rest in weeks and I'm wondering what is going on. Not having | deep sleep for weeks really has a big impact on your stress | levels, memory, emotional well being and general energy levels. | | The annoying part is coffee is so good for productivity so I go | through cycles (also you start to think it's the stress not the | caffeine that's causing the sleep issue!) | | Weeks of stressful work - drink more caffeine to get all the | work done - bad sleep, bad mood, bad energy levels, aka all the | negative affects from not having enough deep sleep. | | Weeks of less stressful work, no caffeine, great sleep, great | mood/energy levels, etc. | | I've always convinced myself that not drinking caffeine for | deep sleep is just placebo, but I've tested it so many times | that it just can't be. | | Is there a way to test if you're a slower metabolizer? I know | my partner can drink 3 cups and she is totally fine, lucky her! | I'm 100% convinced I am, but it would be cool to test by some | sort of blood/urine test? | aantix wrote: | You'll have to do a genetic test. Nebula, 23andme, etc. | | Then look at CYP1A2, see if you have the C/C genotype. | | Definitely read the Genetic Life Hacks article that I linked | to above. | grvdrm wrote: | So if C/C then slow metabolizer? | aantix wrote: | Correct. C/C is the genotype. | | Marker rs762551, as another poster noted above. | | For 23andme customers: | https://you.23andme.com/tools/data/?query=rs762551 | throwaway128128 wrote: | Thank you for sharing your link. | | Groan, I'm A/C!! | UniverseHacker wrote: | CYP1A2 is the whole gene- you need to look at marker | rs762551 within CYP1A2. Both the C/C and A/C genotype are | slow caffeine metabolizers. The most common genotype is | A/A, which is a fast metabolizer. | | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp/rs762551 | jamroom wrote: | Do you have a link to one that shows A/C? I'm only seeing | C/C (I'm A/C so curious). Thanks! | dommer wrote: | Stay away from 23andme if you have any privacy concerns. | I've worked with providers of DNA insights and advice that | don't build their revenue model on selling your data. For | example DNAPal.me | astrange wrote: | They do not sell your data; Facebook and Google also | don't sell your data. | | Your DNA is worthless[0] and impossible to hide. If | someone did want your DNA there is nothing you could do | to stop them. You leave it everywhere you go. | | [0] except to your children you don't know you have | Obscurity4340 wrote: | Yeah, but why not support companies doing "the right | thing" and nudge the trend towards companies that respect | and preserve the privacy interests of their customers. | mattgreenrocks wrote: | Fascinating. What are your deep sleep totals on and off | caffeine? | MetallicDragon wrote: | This sounds like the same cycle I go through, especially the | forgetting part. I've found that cycling caffeine through the | week (taking a break on weekends) and just not having too | much even during the week can help maintain the productivity, | but it also means spending my weekends in a tired daze. I | think I just need to commit to not having any caffeine, or if | I do, only taking it temporarily before stopping again. | Obscurity4340 wrote: | So if I can fall asleep after moderate amounts (like, right | away after intake), this prolly doesn't affect me, no? | LeafItAlone wrote: | Yours and all of the child comments are fascinating to me. I | can drink a cup of coffee right before bed and it doesn't seem | to affect my sleep noticeably (e.g. I feel just as refreshed | the next day as when I don't). | | I have even tried to give it up multiple times and have lasted | well over a month before deciding that I was still more tired | (and irritable) than when summoning it. | skottenborg wrote: | It's very interesting how different reactions to caffeine are. | I can take a 200 mg caffeine pill 5 hours before sleep and have | no trouble sleeping. My Samsung smartwatch doesn't indicate any | loss of deep sleep either (1-2 hours usually). | | I do have a high tolerance though, but I don't weight much | either. | baby wrote: | It's interesting because this was me. I couldn't drink coffee, | even in the morning, without getting pretty strong jitters AND | not being able to sleep at night. I didn't know it could be | because of slow metabolizing. | | But I've been forcing myself to drink coffee for some of its | benefits (heart and focus) and now I can drink coffee at 3pm, | no jitters, no effect to sleep. I'm actually wondering if I | sleep better by drinking coffee because I'm more active during | the day and much more tired when I hit the bed now. | aantix wrote: | For those with impacted sleep due to caffeine - | | Have you found any supplements or alternatives that increase | focus but did not impact your sleep quality? | | Sadly, I have no alternative recommendations. Everything that | claims to increase "focus", also appears to impact my sleep. | manifoldgeo wrote: | If you have ADD or ADHD, Ritalin might help. I have severe | ADHD that I refused to treat for decades, but I recently gave | in. | | I am _hugely_ sensitive to caffeine and feel a buzz even from | decaf. It ruins my sleep in a similar way to what a couple | people in this thread describe. | | I take 10mg of instant-release Ritalin at 7AM each day, and | it allows me to focus and deliver. It wears off by around | 2-3PM, and I sleep like a rock most nights. | | There are downsides as well: once it wears off, it leaves you | mentally drained until you've slept. Also, there's a | potential for building a tolerance, as well as potential for | addiction. I've been lucky in both cases so far, but ymmv. | crucialfelix wrote: | Creatine, phenylpiracetam, tyrosine, 7 minute workout. | krrrh wrote: | Low dose nicotine gum does help, but it's pretty habit | forming. I'm not convinced it's worse than taking daily ADHD | medication or caffeine though. | | Aerobic exercise (preferably outdoors) is the one thing that | works with mostly positive side effects. | Rewrap3643 wrote: | The metabolite of nicotine has a long half-life and | probably degrades sleep quality. | | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9443078/ | asicsarecool wrote: | L-theanine | | Seriously. | | I panic if I run out | svachalek wrote: | Kava. It's calming unlike caffeine, but also seems to help | concentration. It seems to flush out of my system very | quickly, so that I haven't noticed it affecting sleep either | way. | illegalsmile wrote: | Interesting, I've been working on my sleep and read this from | the article you posted: Curcumin is an inhibitor of CYP1A2. | | I sleep really well with a 200-400mg of Ibuprofen but it's not | something I want to take often or at all for sleep. | Curcumin/turmeric is also anti-inflammatory. I'm starting to | think that cutting out all caffeine (cup of black tea in the | morning) and taking some curcumin might be the way to better | sleep. | Reason077 wrote: | Definitely be careful with Ibuprofen. Real risk of messing up | your stomach if you take it too regularly. | bilsbie wrote: | How long have you been off of caffiene? | | I'd think in the first few months of quitting you'd be | overtired from withdraw and might sleep better. | grvdrm wrote: | Did you ever experiment with tea? Your message is clear on | caffeine overall but I am curious if you tried tea in the | process of figuring this out. | UniverseHacker wrote: | Thanks for pointing this out! I'm a slow caffeine metabolizer | also, and it took a long time to notice what is happening in my | body, and not listen to other people that say things like "just | stop drinking coffee before 5pm" or "limit to 4 cups a day" | that totally don't work for me. | aantix wrote: | This was also a good lesson that if I continued to listen to | the pop science, the general consensus was that coffee was a | net positive. | | And that was my stance for a long time. | | I didn't realize that there could be such a distinction in | one's reaction to caffeine intake. | | "The genetics of caffeine sensitivity also have implications | for cardiovascular health. | | In a 2006 study of more than 4,000 people, researchers found | that for slow metabolizers, consuming more cups of coffee per | day was associated with an increased risk of a heart attack. | Fast metabolizers had no such increased risks." | eslaught wrote: | How do you know what kind you are? | | I have zero response to caffeine up to a certain point, and | then past that I get shaky and anxious. One cup of tea, no | response. Two is too much. Coffee is often on the edge. But | no effect on alertness no matter how much or little I take. | aantix wrote: | You'll have to do a genetic test like Nebula, 23andme, etc. | Then look at CYP1A2, marker rs762551, to see if you have | the C/C genotype. | | If you have a 23andme account: | | https://you.23andme.com/tools/data/?query=rs762551 | protomolecule wrote: | Or not. | | https://www.reuters.com/technology/hackers-advertise- | sale-23... | endorphine wrote: | Have you tried limiting it to 1 coffee per week? Wondering how | that would play out | krrrh wrote: | For anyone reading this and wanting to get off caffeine, but | finding it difficult because of withdrawal symptoms like | headaches, here's a trick that makes it easier. | | If you're drinking a morning coffee you'll be getting 100-200mg | of caffeine. But even a small amount of caffeine will take | almost all the edge off withdrawal and prevent headaches. A 75g | dark chocolate bar at 70% will give you 20-25mg of caffeine. | Costco sells boxes of Lindt chocolate bars that meet this | criteria. Eat one in the morning instead of coffee (the sugar | and theobromine seems to help as well). Once you've done this | for a week it's easy to just stop because most people won't get | withdrawal symptoms from 20mg. | w4ffl35 wrote: | Cold turkey. I do it all the time. Not hard but yes I get a | headache. I don't understand people who have to ease their | way off a substance. | cseleborg wrote: | There was a joke like that, it went something like: | "Quitting smoking is so easy, I've done it so many times | already!" | taude wrote: | I typically weigh my coffee, either for making espresso (20g) | or for pourovers (25g). Last time I quit, went like this: a) | move from two espressos -> one espresso for a few days. Once | steady on a single 20g espresso... b) move from 20g espresso | to 20g pouroer. c) each day take a few grams off the pour | over. The last time I made one I used 5 mg beans, and then | quit pretty easily the next day. | | This taper method made it totally doable for me, no | headaches. The hardest part was going from 2 espressos to 1, | mostly because of the habit. I substituted in herbal tea for | my second cup.... | DavideNL wrote: | > _" 75g dark chocolate bar at 70%"_ | | > _" Eat one in the morning"_ | | That's like ~ 35gr. of fat in the morning of which ~ 20gr. | saturated fat. Ouch... | astrange wrote: | That's a great time for fats. Definitely better than the | usual breakfast approach of giving yourself an insulin | spike. | astrange wrote: | You could try decaf plus tyrosine/phenylalanine supplements | as well. | | Theobromine is another stimulant, so I'm not sure it helps. | mirekrusin wrote: | I found switching to green tea easy. Got infusion jug and | still have morning routine to do it, it's actually much more | convenient to have it at the desk to refill. You can also | control how intense you want it - with water temperature and | quantity - as even very light version is great to sip through | the day. | elzbardico wrote: | Actually I envy you. I can drink one expresso or two one hour | before sleep and will sleep the same. It is kind of annoying | because sometimes I wanted to pull an all-nighter and coffee | doesn't have the effect in me that I wanted and I end up | sleeping anyway. | SillyUsername wrote: | I'm f'ed as are probably a lot of people who have anxiety or have | ideas that wake them up. How the heck is a person meant to stop | that? :( | johndevor wrote: | Meditation? | mxmbrb wrote: | A simple realization helped me to get out of the loop of night | thoughts a lot quicker: | | At night your reasoning abilty is massively impaired by | melatonin. Thats why your thoughts keep going in circles and | one does not find the most obvious solutions for a problem. | There is only one thing to do. Let it go. You are at your | worst, you're not supposed to reason right now. | | This simple fact fixed crushing night thoughts for me and a | friend of mine. | monological wrote: | Main reason is due to purging of b-amyloid by the glymphatic | system, which seems to happen during deep sleep. High b-amyloid | plaque build up is correlated with Alzheimer's disease. | | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7698404/ | Tarq0n wrote: | The causal relationship between amyloid plaque and alzheimers | is controversial nowadays. | monological wrote: | It's not "casual". Did you read the paper I linked? | dbspin wrote: | As someone who's had pretty profound sleep apnea related insomnia | (resistant to sleep hygiene and CBT-I) for at least 20 years | (since my mid twenties), this is super dispiriting. | baby wrote: | Same here + acid reflux that keep me awake at night sometimes. | tradesmanhelix wrote: | Anecdotally, Steve Gibson's "Healthy Sleep Formula" [1] has been | a lifesaver for me. | | As I've gotten older, the biggest challenge has been falling back | asleep in the middle of the night after a wake up (for whatever | reason, i.e., bathroom, noises, etc.), but the Niacinamide esp. | from the formula seems to fix this and I sleep great. Thank you | Steve!! | | [1] https://www.grc.com/health/sleep/healthy_sleep_formula.htm | artylerzysta wrote: | My sleeping improved after moving wifi router and cell phone away | from my bed. | londons_explore wrote: | I suspect it was the cell phone more than the wifi router... | | as well as the constant temptation to check it for messages | there is the random 3am buzzing as some app sends a spam | notification. | throitallaway wrote: | Yes, although I've seen some routers (and other electronic | devices) that have coil whine (which would be very | distracting for sleep.) | sidcool wrote: | How to increase deep sleep? | eagle2com wrote: | Research concerning sleep is very interesting, but also extremely | counterproductive for me. Now I have yet another thing to worry | about if I don't sleep enough/correctly, and thus I _will_ sleep | worse for a while. | kbrkbr wrote: | How is this study different from a study suggesting that taking | off one's shoes before sleeping can reduce headache in the | morning? There may be a hidden cause that leads to sleep | reduction and dementia, no? | TMWNN wrote: | How does Monash have an `.edu`? I thought the only non-US | institutions with one are the Universities of Toronto and | Montreal, for historical reasons. | khazhoux wrote: | The biggest bang-for-buck to improve your sleep: | | https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NMTQM8M | | Stick these tubes up your nose (all the way in!) and enjoy free- | flowing air passage all night. | | The first couple of days will be a bit uncomfortable and weird to | have these things jammed in there, but you forget about them very | quickly, and the huge increase in oxygen intake is amazing. I | hate sleeping without them now. | noname120 wrote: | Does this work even for people who don't snore? No risk of | hurting yourself in your sleep if you suddenly move around? | MetaWhirledPeas wrote: | It probably advertises to snorers because that's a big draw. | In truth it simply makes it easier to breathe through your | nose, similar to Breathe Right nose strips. (So yes it can | benefit anyone who wants better nose breathing.) Snoring | happens farther back in your throat. | khazhoux wrote: | Exactly. It's not about snoring. It just keeps your nostril | flared open so it doesn't choke the amount of air that can | flow. And, much more comfortable and effective than those | sticky strips. | CSSer wrote: | Jokes on you. I've already got a huge schnoz. Seriously though, | now I'm wondering if that's doing me any favors. | khazhoux wrote: | Well, try this simple experiment. Tilt your head 90deg and | nose-breathe. Now grab your up-facing nostril and pull it | wide open. You're probably taking in a lot more air now, with | zero resistance. That's what these tubes do. | riversflow wrote: | So if anyone here is really desperate to get deep sleep and can't | despite lots of effort, it might be worth looking into Delta | sleep inducing peptide(DSIP). My father has fibromyalgia and | struggles to get any restorative sleep most nights, I came across | DSIP while trying to figure out how to help him. Unfortunately I | can't speak to it's effectiveness as neither of us can afford | DSIP, although it has come down significantly in price in the | last several years. | xupybd wrote: | Having recently started treating my sleep apnea the difference is | startling. Being able to remember and think like this is unreal. | I have no idea how I remained employed for so long in my previous | state. | | Sleep quality is so important. | nmz wrote: | Is this surprising anyone? If lack of sleep causes a myriad of | symptoms like hallucinations, mood swings and etc. Then the | opposite would probably true. | shakil wrote: | Here we go again confusing correlation with causation. The | medical field is mired with these: eat less to lose weight, | reduce cholesterol to prevent heart attacks, reduce stress to | prevent stomach ulcers ... | | Have they considered people prone to dementia just aren't able to | get quality sleep, and both of these are due to some other | underlying cause where fixing one doesn't really fix the other? | rzmmm wrote: | This kind of prospective study is not perfect but it's what is | possible for this type of risk factor and disease. Researchers | can't create an RCT study with blinded deep sleep intervention | group with placebo and then after 17 years see which got less | dementia. The authors avoid the C-word on purpose but it's | implied that this kind of study brings more evidence than just | association. | gopher2000 wrote: | The article is literally titled "Association Between Slow-Wave | Sleep Loss and Incident Dementia". Association is not | causation. | 3cats-in-a-coat wrote: | Or maybe dementia prevents deep sleep, which is much more logical | given many diseases in general disrupt proper sleep. | | I'm sick of low-quality studies which try to draw causative | conclusions from correlative observations (and usually often | quite weak ones). | | Stop writing garbage papers. | haxiomic wrote: | Does any one have experience with rapid breathing while sleeping? | | I've been trying to fix my long-term sleep issues for a while and | I often don't get much deep sleep. | | When I record my sleep through an Apple Watch and breathing | microphone, I find my breathing rate goes _up_ , often 25-30 | breaths per minute but while awake it's < 20. I can't seem to | find anything online that's relevant. It's been this way for the | year I've been monitoring, does this happen to anyone else? ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-11-01 23:00 UTC)