[HN Gopher] A kernel update broke my stylus ___________________________________________________________________ A kernel update broke my stylus Author : yorwba Score : 74 points Date : 2023-11-01 17:48 UTC (5 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.davidrevoy.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.davidrevoy.com) | thanatos519 wrote: | Sounds like someone broke userland! | Aleklart wrote: | "No, we fixed the glitch." | tux3 wrote: | That doesn't normally fly in kernel land | | If a 'fix' broke something (and it's not for something like a | major security issue), then it is customary to revert the fix | and go back to the drawing board | | I can see that this is a complicated situation and OP was a | special case that had not been affected by acccident, but | those are excuses | | If you upgrade your kernel and you don't have any out of tree | stuff, by policy nothing should break, orherwise it's the | kernel's problem. | smelendez wrote: | > go back to the drawing board | | I see what you did there | appleskeptic wrote: | "Never break userland" is more of a strong guideline than a | hard rule, even if Linus has sometimes made it sound | otherwise during a heated gamer moment. The fact is, kernel | devs break userland code all the time, sometimes because | the alternative is worse, or sometimes because a bugfix | broke something and no one noticed until much later and it | was decided not to revert the fix because it would now | break other things to do that. Try to run an entire large | userland from 2001 on a modern kernel and tell me how that | goes. | tux3 wrote: | Mistakes are human. Certainly a lot of bugs slip through, | and that's understandable, software is hard. | | That being said, I find that people tend to take the no | regression rule pretty seriously, if you bring a valid | complaint. It makes good sense. We don't want to give | people a reason to stay on old kernels even more than | they do today (this post written on an ancient Android | kernel, chock full of out of tree drivers). We can at | least save people from pain when it comes to in-tree | drivers. | | I think we really all benefit from that policy. Even if | it sometimes keeps some less than perfect workarounds in | the code | tedunangst wrote: | Every userland program is equal, but some are more equal than | others. | kaetemi wrote: | Now Windows isn't alone in changing or resetting drawing tablet | settings on random updates. | DarkmSparks wrote: | difference with Linux is this will be fixed most likely before | new year. | | windows will always stay broken. | pizzapim wrote: | A smarter person than me is perhaps able to hack an eBPF HID | program together to temporarily remediate the problem | oakwhiz wrote: | It kind of sounds like there needs to be a quirks mode for pens. | abdullahkhalids wrote: | I recently started a remote scientist job, and its kind of insane | that I am the only person among dozens who use a tablet+stylus | during meetings. People have such poor discussions, because | unlike a irl meeting where multiple people will write stuff on a | whiteboard, here people are just communicating verbally (read | vaguely) or painfully scratching unintelligible | diagrams/equations with their mouse. | | I think every remote job that sends employees a laptop should | also be sending them a wacom tablet. | jon-wood wrote: | What are you using for note taking? I while back I bought a | small Wacom tablet for this very purpose, particularly being | able to quickly sketch out diagrams while in in meetings, but | ended up giving up because I couldn't get the hang of using the | tablet. | | I'm pretty sure it was a tooling issue rather than the tablet | itself, and wouldn't mind taking another punt at it. | orbital-decay wrote: | What's your OS? On Windows, Nebo is pretty good. Rnote is the | best of FOSS, but it lacks handwriting recognition if you | need it, at least for now. For hybrid workflows (tablet + | keyboard) Obsidian also has something to offer, Excalidraw | plugin in particular. | | _> I'm pretty sure it was a tooling issue_ | | Depends on whether you want shape/diagram recognition or not. | If the only thing you need is free-form drawing, you can use | just about anything. | abdullahkhalids wrote: | I just tried Rnote. Seems quite decent. But on MacOS, it | seems to be bugged. Instead of a tiny pointer/eraser/other | tool showing as the pointer, it continues to show the OS | mouse pointer. | | I will try it on linux later. Hopefully it will work there. | | My initial gripe is that there are three different | toolbars, all separated from each other. I want to change | tools and their settings quickly, not move my hand across | the entire screen. For example, select brush tool on bottom | toolbar, select size on the left toolbar, then select color | on the top toolbar. | abdullahkhalids wrote: | I have the medium Wacom. I think the small size would be | uncomfortable. | | When I was a prof, I used the Wacom on linux with OpenBoard | [1] to teach online for two years of the pandemic. My work | gave me a Macbooks, but OpenBoard has some weird bugs on | MacOS. So I am using GoodNotes, which is very annoying, but | the best of what I tried. In another life, I would dedicate a | few years of my life writing a decent note taking app. | | [1] https://github.com/OpenBoard-org/OpenBoard | | Edit: Besides the software, I think it takes a few weeks of | writing on it daily where it becomes natural. | quectophoton wrote: | > I have the medium Wacom. I think the small size would be | uncomfortable. | | I have a Wacom Intuos S. | | Sample size 1, but I haven't been inconvenienced by its | size, even while handwriting or drawing at Krita. | | On one hand, I don't think a thought like "this would be | easier with a bigger tablet" has ever crossed my mind; but | on the other hand, it's also true that I haven't tried | anything bigger, so my only point of comparison is tablet | vs mouse or tablet vs whiteboard/notebook. | abdullahkhalids wrote: | I haven't also tried the S one. But my intuition is the | following. | | The surface of the tablet is mapped to your screen in | terms of input. The Intuos M is just a bit smaller than | 13 inch laptop screens. So what you see on the screen is | roughly the same size as what you draw with your hand. | Additionally, while writing at normal pen/paper size, my | hand moves comfortably from the left of the tablet to the | right as I write across the whole screen. | | If I had to use a Intuos S, then I imagine, I would have | to write a lot smaller with my hand, but then have it | appear as bigger on the screen. But my hand would not | move a lot, and making tiny characters would tire my hand | out faster. I think my brain would get used to it, but it | will still be a jump. | dataflow wrote: | > I think every remote job that sends employees a laptop should | also be sending them a wacom tablet. | | It's so annoying dealing with a separate tablet just for the | sake of writing. Why not a tablet PC or such? | dharmab wrote: | Wacom style devices are extremely affordable. I have a $30 | drawing tablet which I use for digital art and works very | well. | dvdkon wrote: | I have one, and flipping it from "laptop mode" to "tablet | mode" adds noticeable friction, especially if you have e.g. a | dock connected. Then again, so does having to carry around a | tablet. | | For an office job I'd take the external tablet, since my | laptop would likely be plugged in all the time. | | You could also keep it permanently in tablet mode and use an | external monitor, mouse, and keyboard. Just don't | underestimate the mode change. | quectophoton wrote: | People look at me like I'm crazy because I use a wacom tablet | as mouse. | | I'm using a "cheap" one (I think it was like 80 EUR), and it's | mind blowing how convenient it is despite its small size. Now | trying to use a physical whiteboard for brainstorming, feels | the same way as trying to use pen and paper for programming: | technically doable, but I curse internally because the | inconvenience. | | Just being able to select stuff and move it around, or undo | with a quick Ctrl+Z, or rotate things, makes all the | difference. | | Sure, I love using a paper notebook for my notes, and the feel | of writing with a pencil on paper is really nice; and I would | use it for drawing quick stuff if I don't have anything else at | hand. But if I think I'm going to be erasing a lot, or that I | will be doing the kind of stuff that is usually done with a | whiteboard, a drawing tablet is (to me) a vastly superior | option. | abdullahkhalids wrote: | Yup. Writing on paper with a nice fountain pen or pencil is | primal love. So satisfying. But digital tablets are so much | superior for that messy kind of work, you just have to use | them. | Terr_ wrote: | Not really a solution as much as an alternative form of | attack: Tools like graphviz where I can type certain limited | types of diagrams into a text editor and xdot well instantly | display the render. | | There are also some online ones, although I'm not sure how | well they work in a multi-editor situation. | | Might not be flexible enough for a really open brainstorming, | but enough for stuff like figuring out domain concepts. | c0nfused wrote: | I have been really tempted to sit down and write a ot version | of edotor.net so more than one person could edit a graph at the | same time in a meeting/ discussion. | | We have been trialing using it to draw graphviz graphs for | discussion and it has been working very well both as an in | meeting tool and as a reference later on. | | Would be interested to go the Wacom route but my my handwriting | is very bad and only getting worse | pengaru wrote: | Maybe this can be worked around via the 'quirks=' usbhid module | parameter: | | https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/lin... | $ modinfo -p usbhid | grep quirks quirks:Add/modify USB HID | quirks by specifying quirks=vendorID:productID:quirks where | vendorID, productID, and quirks are all in 0x-prefixed hex (array | of charp) | lantastic wrote: | David reached out to the maintainers on the relevant ML [0]. | Could also CC the regressions@lists.linux.dev [1]. | | [0] https://lore.kernel.org/linux- | input/nycvar.YFH.7.76.23110120... [1] | https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/v6.6/admin-guide/reporting-r... | molticrystal wrote: | It didn't hurt that the comment section[0] for the blog is | powered by the fediverse [1], so Greg KH responded to the post | [2] pointing him towards writing that email and tips on doing | so along with many other tech savvy individuals. This issue is | being seen all over the place. | | [0] https://www.davidrevoy.com/article995/how-a-kernel-update- | br... | | [1] https://framapiaf.org/@davidrevoy/111336038253784524 | | [2] https://social.kernel.org/notice/AbN55QfONFCPweYq7E | chabad360 wrote: | While very annoying, it is possible to create an evdev based | wrapper around the input, that can remap any of the signals as | you wish (I know it's possible cause I've done it). | gertlex wrote: | We had a fun one a couple years ago where a kernel bump turned | our USB touchscreen monitors into trackpad monitors... (i.e. | touch input behaved like your laptop trackpad) Thankfully I was | able to figure out a udev rule via trial and error and get that | fixed easily enough. ChatGPT probably would have saved me some | time there had I had it at the time. Deploying that to hardware | in the field was the messy bit (but still automated, so that was | a win). | 1970-01-01 wrote: | Great example of how Linux evenings randomly come about. Someone, | somewhere, did a thing, and now user needs to find out who did | what, and why it happend, and how to fix it by themselves. | Galanwe wrote: | If it's just a driver problem, why not checkout the old one, | build it as a new module with a different ID, and insmod it on | the new kernel? | dharmab wrote: | Because an artist using, say, Krita on Linux to paint shouldn't | be expected to rebuild kernel modules. | doublerabbit wrote: | > Krita on Linux to paint shouldn't be expected to rebuild | kernel modules. | | The other-side of the coin is that if your using Linux, you | should expect that such things happen without your desire. | And that if you wish for the previous feature you'll have to | nose-dive in to if you want to fix or just revert back to the | previous version. You shouldn't, but here we are. | | At the risk of downvotes, I would also say you shouldn't | really need to update the kernel either. Unless there is | really a feature required, or extreme-security vulnerability | of your current version, exclude it. | | That was the past-beauty of Linux, you didn't need to be on | $latest; that was Microsoft's realm, always requiring | updates. If it worked you left it be for this exact reason. | Every day I look at my iPhone and everyday there's a batch of | updates for my apps sometimes twice on the same day for the | same app and I don't use many. | | The current fearing update culture we live in is terrible. | | /vent | jdhendrickson wrote: | I love his comic, I hope this is addressed soon. | qwery wrote: | Software all the way up the input stack seems to be a bit | confused about a few things, or there is a lack of understanding | that: | | - graphics tablet digitisers generally are not and don't include | touch digitisers | | - tablets are not touch screens | | - a stylus (tip) isn't a button | | - a stylus can have buttons | | By convention, stylus tip interactions are "tools", which seems | to be what Linux' BTN_TOOL_* codes are meant to mean. A button on | a stylus should never be (directly) translated to a tool -- like | how the ~5th button on a mouse is `BTN_EXTRA`, not `BTN_MOUSE`. | In this particular case it looks like the thinking is: the device | has 2 event codes (which we know as the stylus tip and the barrel | button) and it's a stylus^wdigitiser, so map device[0] to | `BTN_DIGI` and device[1] to `BTN_DIGI + 1`. | | editendum: the thing about the BTN_EXTRA doesn't really map... | The "digitiser" event codes _are_ being treated in the same way | as mouse event codes (device[i] = > event[CLASS + i]). The issue | is really that the barrel buttons have no (dedicated) event | codes. | javier_e06 wrote: | Oh don't get me started. I got a Corsair Claw Gaming mouse and | Rocky Linux 9 does not have a simple way to map the buttons to | events. Corsair does not provide Linux software for it. Yes I | tried all kind of mapping programs to no avail. My chromebook old | chromebook tablet (32 bit) has a stylus and works okay. I won't | upgrade, I know how those upgrades break non-run-of-the-mill | external devices APIs. | paxys wrote: | Ah, Linux. | pipeline_peak wrote: | Definitely wouldn't recommend using Linux for artwork... ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-11-01 23:00 UTC)