[HN Gopher] I designed my own keyboard layout. Was it worth it? ___________________________________________________________________ I designed my own keyboard layout. Was it worth it? Author : doener Score : 48 points Date : 2023-11-02 12:32 UTC (10 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.jonashietala.se) (TXT) w3m dump (www.jonashietala.se) | okasaki wrote: | I also designed my own layout (https://i.imgur.com/C7GSCoE.jpg) | | I used it for around a year, but I'm back to qwerty now, | specifically on a low-profile keyboard with red switches from | aliexpress. | | Pros: | | - Some people think it's cool | | - It's interesting to do it | | - It's fun getting fast at typing on a new layout | | Cons: | | - Most people think it's weird | | - It can get expensive | | - Although I was eventually able to switch quite seamlessly | between my layout and qwerty, for a few months my qwerty skills | were very bad. | | - If you don't want to carry it to and from work, you need 2 | keyboards, or suffer two layouts | | - When typing I sometimes found myself thinking about the | keyboard and layout rather than what I was writing | | - There's no ergonomic benefit that I could see, but I don't have | any problems with normal keyboards | sleepybrett wrote: | I tried to switch to workman a while ago. I only did it on my | kinesis advantage (my main work board). I left my gaming | keyboard, normal flat 65. I was able to switch back and forth | but I credit that to a kind of muscle memory because of the | advantages physical layout. | | I also went back, partly 'getting back up to speed' frustration | and partially because I'm really not sure what I was going to | get out of it. After almost 40 years with qwerty keyboards ... | it doesn't seem like i'm going to get that much benefit if | there is even a measurable benefit. | Keyframe wrote: | I just need a HHKB with macbook keyboard's arrow keys to the | right side. | sleepybrett wrote: | I know i've seen them but it might be easierjust to go with a | layout like one of these.. I'm not suggesting this particular | company, i have no experience.. but just easy to find photos: | | https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q1-pro-qmk-via-wi... | | This layout seems cool though I'm pretty sure you could find | one w/o the f-frow. | | I've gone with a 65 for my only 'flat' board. | https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-k2-pro-qmk-via-wi... | | You might be able to find one with the hhkb 'missing molars'.. | | HHKB/Realforce did make a hhkb lite with inverted-t arrows in | 2001... you can see it on this page: | https://hhkeyboard.us/about/history | jwells89 wrote: | I'm pretty happy with just plain HHKB, just wish I could have | that layout on a laptop. Maybe one of these days some company | will produce aftermarket HHKB layout keyboard components for | Framework laptops... | Keyframe wrote: | I'm super happy with it. So much so that I have two. However, | occasionally I do want to "play pacman with one hand and eat | pizza with other". Impossible to do with HHKB. | strongly-typed wrote: | The ANSI HHKB does not have the arrows, but if you're willing | to use the JIS HHKB, it actually comes with dedicated arrow | keys, and even a split spacebar with extra thumb keys that you | can reprogram with software to act however you want. | sleepybrett wrote: | shot answer, probably not unless it's an accessiblity thing | (missing fingers etc) | | The whole 'least keys possible i'm 31337 hax0r' optimization | fuckery I just find hilarious. | smrq wrote: | If you haven't experienced RSI to the point where you | understand that reaching for distant keys is literally painful, | then I can see how you might come to the conclusion that it's | just for e-peen points. | hinkley wrote: | If some of my coworkers switched from code golf to key golf the | world would be a better place. | daliusd wrote: | It is fun, you learn something in process, nothing wrong with | that. E.g. knowledge I have acquired while playing with | keyboards was beneficial while fixing some home appliances and | toys. I don't have any health problems like RSI and find it | more comfortable. And BTW there is end game - you can create | one key Morse keyboard that is actually usable | https://blog.ffff.lt/posts/morsilka/ | __MatrixMan__ wrote: | In my case it was worth it. | | I kept qwerty but moved each half outward so g and h are now | where f and j used to be. From there I moved all of the outer | keys to the two new columns in the center, plus a few other | tweaks. Got enter on the corner so it's a palm-press. | | If I use a normal keyboard my pinkys start to hurt again, goes | away when I switch back to my custom one. | sweettea wrote: | Jonas' keyboard layout is so awesome and incredibly inspirational | for my own journey -- probably the single most read documents | that I've spent time with this year. | gsuuon wrote: | I partially went down the alternative layout path before I | realized simply lifting my palms off the palm rest was enough to | relieve my RSI issues. | coldtea wrote: | KISS and Pareto would be proud of you! | IshKebab wrote: | I had RSI and experimented with Dvorak, vertical keyboards, even | vertical mice (terrible idea). | | None of them helped. Surprisingly the thing that helped was | getting a really good chair (I recommend a second hand HM Mira; | don't get anything that sells itself as "ergonomic"), and a | really deep desk so you can properly rest your forearms on the | desk. | | With that my RSI went away completely, even with a totally plain | qwerty keyboard. | | Dvorak was definitely nicer than QWERTY but when you add up... | | 1. You know qwerty. You'll probably never be as fast with Dvorak. | | 2. Ever want to type on any other keyboard in the world again? | Yeah good luck. You _will_ underestimate how often you type on | coworkers ' keyboards. | | 3. Ever use keyboard shortcuts? Well now they're awful. | | ... it _definitely_ isn 't worth it. | svachalek wrote: | I learned Dvorak 30 years ago due to RSI, and it's a pain for | reasons 2 and 3. Maybe 10 years ago I just dropped it and went | back to Qwerty. Got RSI, switched back to Dvorak, fixed it. | | But speed is just a matter of experience. I don't know if I'm | faster on Dvorak, but a speed that is really hammering keys in | Qwerty feels comparatively effortless in Dvorak. | dheera wrote: | I got a HM Sayl. It is comfortable but it makes a racket of | squeaks, creaks, and wailing noises every time I move. So much | so that I try not to move at all during meetings these days. My | previous $80 Staples chair didn't have this problem. | | Are the other HM chairs any better? | IshKebab wrote: | Never tried that chair but yeah the Mira's don't make any | noise. (There's a Mira 1 and 2 but they're essentially | identical.) | sesm wrote: | I tried vertical mouse, and the biggest issue with it is that | you need to rotate your wrist each time you reach for the | mouse. Just using a keyboard without numpad solved the issue. | Back in the days when I used a keyboard with numpad, I | positioned my mouse below the keyboard (near the Space key) and | it was a big improvement in terms of hand travel distance. | fsiefken wrote: | About keyboard shortcuts, with vim and ctrl-c/v I decided to | use the characters of the layout, otherwise I thought it would | be to confusing. But X, C and V are so comfortably next to each | other that I sometimes make an exception. | input_sh wrote: | Does anyone do this _and_ type in multiple languages regularly? | | I could see myself getting into it if I only had to bother with a | single layout, but since I deal with three different layouts on a | daily basis, no way. | dheera wrote: | I use Dvorak and regularly type in both English and Chinese | (Pinyin). | | On Linux and Mac it's no issue to input both using Dvorak. | | On Android, however, none of the Chinese input methods support | Dvorak so I had to decompile and modify Google Pinyin's APK and | rearrange the XML layout files to Dvorak. | | https://github.com/dheera/android-googlepinyin-dvorak | | I never learned QWERTY, so I'm extremely bad at typing with it | even on a phone, regardless of language. | terr-dav wrote: | I recently switched to Dvorak for iOS, which I was delighted | to find as an option. | | While I can still function on a full-size QWERTY keyboard on | account of using them regularly, I almost never pick up | someone else's phone, so my thumbs have forgotten it | entirely. | antoinebalaine wrote: | I use the French bepo layout for everything, but all my | languages are Roman languages. | silverpepsi wrote: | I type in Chinese regularly | | It is annoying that Windows keeps Qwerty for it while Mac uses | Dvorak. If it was just consistent (I constantly switch | machines) it would be easy to handle and entirely subconscious | by now... | | But I start typing the wrong layout every time and lose a few | seconds mentally reorienting myself. | dheera wrote: | I don't use Windows so I don't have an definitive answer for | you but it seems possible to have Dvorak+Pinyin. This is 6 | years old so I don't know if the latest versions of Windows | work the same way | | https://medium.com/@jiayu./how-to-set-your-pinyin-ime- | keyboa... | fsiefken wrote: | Yes, I type in Dutch, English and sometimes German. You have to | check if the distance advantage also goes for the three | languages, for me they all are more efficient and more | comfortable in Dvorak with the I and U reversed. It's not that | much more comfortable, but definitely noticeable. When you have | had RSI anything that makes typing more comfortable helps. | | Of course if you want the most efficient (you first have to | decide on the factors, and the most efficient combination) | layout for each language of the most efficient for the average | of each language you can have a nice hobby for a year. I was | afraid I'd end up with an esoteric layout and then after a few | years find out that there was a better layout and I would learn | that one all over again. Instead I decided to stick with DVORAK | with an improvement tweak so it would be also more or less be | usable on Android en iOS. | flyax wrote: | Yes. I'm also using my own layout on ErgoDox EZ, my languages | are Czech (priserne zloutoucky kun upel dabelske ody) and | English. I'm also a (neo)vim user. | | I found it hard to switch layouts, I'm using only one with | layers. On first layer there are english letters, second layer | there are accents (a - a) and some symbols where accent is | missing (m - +). On third layer there are arrows on home row | and functional keys. Shift without other key is `(`, on second | layer `{`. There are some additional keys at the bottom and | middle, they cover the rest of symbols. Outliers are mapped to | start editor, browser, ctrl+c, ctrl+z, volume, mute, ... | | I really like having a single layout. I don't like that I'm no | longer able to type on QWERTY without looking at keys. On my | desktop, I'm 10 % faster, on any other computer I'm 90 % | slower. Would I do it again? Probably yes. | neom wrote: | This was on the front page yesterday also: | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38108427 | gumballindie wrote: | The only customiseable keyboard i want is one made of glass - a | screen like macbook's touchbar - where i can move keys around, | add custom keys, or simply "enable" and show only those relevant | to what i'm using. Ie if i play a game to only shows wasd plus | tool keys. And those tools keys to be renamed to whatever their | purpose is. | bee_rider wrote: | This would be a nice application for eink, if it ever got cheap | enough. | dheera wrote: | Small eInk displays of that size are already cheap, probably | <$1 if I were to guess. | wdfx wrote: | This was done, albeit with small led displays back in 2007. | Google lebedev Optimus | fsiefken wrote: | Colemak was just released when I decided to switch to a better | keyboard layout to prevent a return to RSI. I looked into rolling | my own based on statistics. I didn't care if it would look like | QWERTY, if I needed to switch cold turkey for my health or future | comfort I'd do so. I decided to use the tried and true DVORAK and | tweak a minimum to make it even beter; switch the U (qwerty F) | and the I (qwerty G) as the I is used much more frequently in | both English and Dutch. Next to being optimized for finger travel | the DVORAK layout has more so called 'hand alteration' during | typing due to the vowels being on the left. | | It took months before I was 'up to speed'. I thought I would type | significantly faster, but that is'nt the case as I often think | slower then that I can type. It's much more about comfort. I | don't regret it, it really is more comfortable. I switch between | QWERTY and DVORAK-IU often so I am bilingual. Typing in | alphabetic shorthand (for example Yash) with yet another | optimized layout is another possibility. Or Yash with morse code | or braille mapped like chording or just chording. | https://www.artofchording.com/layout/chorded-keyboard.html | | Soon we will be talking to our LLM's a lot, so it's not a real | big deal, but the nerd in me likes to optimize. Still I think, | perhaps I could have designed the very best layout for my | personal style and Dutch en English and the latest theories | regarding what's more optimal (rolls, hand alteration, | compression, chording). Perhaps an LLM can help? Not sure if I | want to learn a new layout again. In the meantime alternating | between QWERTY and DVORAK-IU suits me well. | JohnFen wrote: | > Soon we will be talking to our LLM's a lot, so it's not a | real big deal | | Regardless of how good voice interfaces get, the inherent | limitations and restrictions that come with it means that we'll | all still be doing a whole lot of typing until/unless a new and | better input method is invented. | coldtea wrote: | I've never seen Betteridge's law of headlines more applicable | than to this title - and I haven't even read TFA. | jug wrote: | The only one I've seriously considered is to open the mechanical | keyboard market for me as a Nordic ISO layout user by using the | Swerty layout: https://johanegustafsson.net/projects/swerty/ | | There is a FAR greater custom keyboard market with ANSI layouts | and that one is exactly that. ANSI layout for the traditionally | ISO Nordic languages. | sesm wrote: | I use QWERTY layout on Ergodox with some keys removed. Moving | symbols to a separate layer and Esc to Caps Lock position was | enough to relieve my hands. | | https://configure.zsa.io/ergodox-ez/layouts/40EJq/latest/0/2... | Radle wrote: | design hardware for vim xD | sam0x17 wrote: | annnnd vim user, no surprise there :D | ge96 wrote: | Tanget/OT | | I smashed the screen on my phone one time and this piece of tech | that could summon a car was useless. I was stuck/had to figure | out a bus system, was hungover so it was bad. I was thinking of | vibration input. | | I still rely on/envision the standard qwerty layout | | Those rock wrist rests are fancy | major505 wrote: | Thanks, I hate it. | | I been using qwerty since the IBM PC XT where a thing. Before | that my mother tauch me to type in eletronic typewriters. It's a | terrible layout for Portuguese, ok for english, but but I spent | so many years perfecting the necessary motor skills to use it | that I would prefer to lose a hand than type in anything else | now. | atoav wrote: | If all I did was type on my own private keyboars maybe I would | consider another layout. But since I spend quite some time on | other people's computers it is not worth the brain-knots that | happen when switching. | PeterisP wrote: | I do a custom layout to get the diacritic non-English letters | from my "proper local" layout but all the special | characters/symbols as per US keyboard, since the "proper local" | layout has them moved around for some reason. That was annoying, | so many years ago I spent the 15 minutes to prepare the layout | files and then I just need to install them on every new computer | I get. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-11-02 23:00 UTC)