[HN Gopher] One sleepless night can rapidly reverse depression f... ___________________________________________________________________ One sleepless night can rapidly reverse depression for several days in mice Author : clouddrover Score : 220 points Date : 2023-11-02 20:43 UTC (2 hours ago) (HTM) web link (news.northwestern.edu) (TXT) w3m dump (news.northwestern.edu) | ge96 wrote: | What's your secret? I'm always manic | not-my-account wrote: | Queue people blogging about their monthly "sleep fast" for | optimized mood and focus. | ge96 wrote: | For me it's forcing myself to only sleep 6 hours so I get | through my day with loud music, caffeine and self hate. | catchnear4321 wrote: | plenty of people force themselves to stay up all night once in | a blue moon for mental health reasons, all without blogging | about it. | nehal3m wrote: | Really, this is a thing? I've never heard about it. | | I used to stay up late sometimes when I was younger, but that | was because the world went to sleep and I felt at peace doing | my own thing. It wasn't because I was trying to feel better | the next day, in fact it tended to screw the next day up. | Obscurity4340 wrote: | There's something to it. Also with dissociatives. Something | about these substances or practices can help "reset" you | like pulling the plug on an electrical device and forcing | it to reboot with refreshed state | catchnear4321 wrote: | pushing the system to a point where it flips over to a | different operating mode. overheating your phone until it | reboots. ctrl+alt+del. | | it usually feels a little precarious. maybe not for | others. but there's definitely an aspect of futzing with | your mortality, with your primary systems. | | but if it works... | Obscurity4340 wrote: | I think there's some shared aspect of "too many | background processes running--must reboot in safe mode!". | Its also a bit impairing to the point you're not exactly | "you" so you have a better chance of viewing things with | different eyes which might be all it takes for someone to | get to that point where they are aware and able to act on | incremental changes in-line with that which appears in | such a state | catchnear4321 wrote: | the second day, you slept poorly, mistakes don't matter. | and that's just an added bonus on top of the biological | changes. | | it is more about the third day. | | not surprising to not hear about it. it isn't permanent, so | catching a "practitioner" in the right moment to bring up | the topic, while being in the right moment, is unlikely. | | plus, bodies are weird, and laws are scary. should everyone | do this? probably not, and probably for differing reasons. | ghostie_plz wrote: | Just sharing an anecdote - I noticed this effect in college | for myself. Since then i do one or two all nighters a year | specifically for this | penjelly wrote: | this runs counter to what i understood, we had allnighters | for productivity or bonding among friends. But i never | wouldve guessed not sleeping for a night would make you feel | _better_ under some circumstances, always figured the health | drawbacks would worsen the issue | ngngngng wrote: | That's exactly where my brain went. Now I need a Huberman Labs | podcast telling me how I can incorporate this with my | supplements and cold showers to achieve my maximum potential. | shikshake wrote: | This must be why new parents always seem so bubbly and happy! | | But seriously, that's very interesting and explains what I've | experienced. I've been in a depression since quitting my phd a | couple months ago and not having a direction in life, but | whenever I have trouble sleeping I end up feeling better the next | day. Maybe I'll trying utilizing it to get my portfolio looking | better. | fsloth wrote: | I went several years more or less depressed and observed this | phenomenon and utilized it. Night of Kerbal Space Program and | next day the world is much better. For a while. Also, a lot | fuzzier. And I couldn't code very well (just good enough to do | my job so everyone was happy but I could _feel_ slipping). | | Therapy and SSRI:s worked much better in the end. | | But, for sure in a pinch it does alleviate unbearable darkness. | The problem is it gives some, and takes a god damn lot - | especially when entering middle age, when you (or I at least) | can't shrug off sleep debt as easily. | | The interesting thing is that this apparently was not well | known during my therapy. I discussed this effect with my | therapist, and she was skeptical and non-plussed. No hard | feelings there, I'm super pleased she was robustly evidence | based. But very happy to read these results in any case to | validate my personal discovery. | romwell wrote: | Seconding everything you wrote. | | Emphasizing: | | - "The problem is it gives some, and takes a god damn lot" | | - "Therapy and SSRI:s worked much better in the end" | | Still resort to this sometimes when I'm not on a schedule | (i.e. between jobs). | harimau777 wrote: | > Therapy and SSRI:s worked much better in the end. | | How did you find that therapy helped you? I've started | therapy a few months back and so far I can't find all that | much value in it. They can't fix any of the stuff that is | making me depressed, so it mostly feels like I'm mainly | getting self help style advice. | Hard_Space wrote: | I've been in therapy over six years, and also did it for a | shorter spell in the early 1990s. | | A few months is really the start of the relationship - it | usually takes that long for most people to establish trust | with their therapist. That doesn't mean you have the right | therapist, but it is hard to know this early on. | runlaszlorun wrote: | That's my experience as well- though my therapy was a while | ago. I had worked a stretch of utterly miserable jobs back | then and conversation would always drift back to the work | mess I likely left just prior and only frustrate me more. I | saw several, mostly because I'd be on different insurance | plans, etc. But not once did anyone say "maybe you need a | new career path?" If anyone of them had followed that up | with "and since procrastination is a problem why don't we | work on helping you get there", I'd be singing the praises | of the field. | | I'm not hating on the profession or anything and I have | friends who swear by it. But each of them, after a bunch of | these sessions I could almost see a hint in their eyes of | "damnit... none of this crap is working." Like I slightly | felt bad for them in a way. Slightly. | | And honestly, given the trajectory of the world, I'd be | more concerned if many people _weren't_ depressed. | | Out of the field, personally I did like Acceptance and | Commitment Therapy (ACT), but it mostly reinforced what I'd | learned from a decade of meditation and my buddhist | practice. | pr0zac wrote: | While I def got more from therapy, I concur regarding ACT | being the methodology that worked best for me and that | it's wild how much it overlaps with mindfulness and | Buddhist practices. | pr0zac wrote: | You might not have a good fit with your therapist. It took | me a few tries but once I found someone with a similar mode | of thinking I got a lot more out of the discussions because | she said things (often the same things as the prior | shrinks) in a way that resonated with my brain better. | | In that regard, therapy never fixed my problems, but it did | help me recognize unhealthy thinking patterns and provide | mechanisms for handling them, both of which have helped me | avoid spirals and getting trapped in negative thought | processes. | Aeolun wrote: | Therapy helped me when I did it in a group. Mostly in | making me realize how good I had it. | | People that weren't able to drive, weren't able to go | outside at all etc. I was just permanently afraid. | | What I gained from my other sessions was mostly a 'get out | of jail' free card to unload all of my thoughts. You can | only do that on your family and friends so many time before | it starts to wear on them hearing the same things again. | But my therapist is paid for that shit, so I have no | compunctions. | | SSRI worked much better on a daily basis, but the therapy | was nice when things were bad. | leetrout wrote: | I noticed something similar (see also: my comment about using | magnesium and getting better sleep on the thread about deep | sleep yesterday). | | When I get ~5ish hours of sleep one night a week I am | surprisingly more alert the next day but I also crash much | harder by night. I cannot sustain multiple days of little sleep | but one short night doesn't seem to have such a detrimental | effect. | manvillej wrote: | I wonder if this is why ADHD people struggle with sleep. | Obscurity4340 wrote: | We have many reasons aha. Always good to start chipping | away at the list ;) | pstadler wrote: | One of my teachers told us to make sure we're getting a good | amount of sleep two nights before an important event (exam, | job interview, competition, you name it). One can easily cope | with a single sleepless night, but not with two in a row. | danielvaughn wrote: | There's something about getting 2-3 hours of sleep that makes | me feel like I'm on top of the world throughout the day. I've | always assumed it was a kind of wild delirium. | Obscurity4340 wrote: | The sleep quality is super lossless and actually gainful when | you compress it by allowing a slight sleep debt to accrue | dgb23 wrote: | Are you claiming that 2-3h of sleep is enough or healthy? | Obscurity4340 wrote: | Why don't you try it and see? Some of my best sleeps were | after a sleepless night and for only like 1-3 hours, | caffeine or other stimulants in the blood be damned | | Edit: also make sure you have bright blue light during | wakeup/morning/day and mellow non-overhead | orangey/amber/yellow light (nothing east of yellow) at | evening/night. Red 2 hours before bedtime for bonus | "points" | LeafItAlone wrote: | My experience does not match up with yours here. | | Given work deadlines I have a lot of experience with full | all-nighters and 1-3 hour nights. | Obscurity4340 wrote: | Can you comment on sleep hygiene and the stuff i | mentioned about light? Do you sleep in complete darkness | in a slightly cooler ambient setting and really get a lot | of bright line first thing at waketime? | whateverman23 wrote: | > Why don't you try it and see? | | I feel great after a few beers, but keeping that state is | a very bad idea. "try it and see" is not a great idea | when it comes to your brain. | Obscurity4340 wrote: | I don't think you build up a "Beer Debt" that grows as it | depletes like sleep and hunger. Cute wrong example but | there's really nothing all that malevolent or | irresponsible about the suggestion. Maybe keep it to the | weekend (like don't start till Friday/Sat night) and | obviously you need the set it up so you don't have to be | places or hold meaningful convos although Im not going to | rule them totally out | whateverman23 wrote: | > there's really nothing all that malevolent or | irresponsible about the suggestion | | You are underestimating the impact of sleep deprivation, | and the ability for a person to recognize the impacts | while sleep deprived. | | https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.118 | 6/s... | | "It was concluded that sleep deprivation has a greater | impact on driving performance than a BrAC of 22 mg/100mls | of breath, as measured by driving simulation. Coffee is | not an effective countermeasure for sleep deprived | driving and drivers' ability to judge this impairment is | suggested to be limited." | Obscurity4340 wrote: | Can I ask how heavily everyone desire I pre-caveat the | main lede here in order to get the discussion centered | more on the idea itself and competing views on the extent | to which folk's have found some usecase or success with | it? Like, obviously if you're a pilot who needs to be | able to thread needles and sew while you're able to still | control the plane should maybe wait till they're relieved | of duty for the weekend or some amount of time allowing | the latitude to try this thing out but I feel like | there's an amount of obtuseness and ridgidity on display | here. | | Edit: also, Polyphasic is insane so anyone making a false | equivalence here can simply stop. I'm referring to an | occasional all-nighter for the joint purposes of | resetting ones mental slate and also helping prime | oneself for a better quality and faster easing-into the | next sleep | whateverman23 wrote: | > in order to get the discussion centered more on the | idea itself and competing views on the extent to which | folk's have found some usecase or success with it? | | So you only want "competing" views if they line up with | your views? | | The study was about driving, something many/most of us do | on a regular basis. It shows that: | | 1. Sleep deprivation while driving is comparable to being | intoxicated while driving. | | 2. Those who are sleep deprived are not reliably able to | recognize their impairment. | | If you think it's "obtuse" to bring this up, then I don't | know what you're trying to do here. Those are extremely | important pieces of information to bring up. | mrexroad wrote: | I have extensive experience with it. I would disagree | that there's nothing irresponsible. I don't recommend | anyone try skipping a night just to see. Blood pressure, | heart rate, and glucose levels can easily go to shit and | exacerbate underlying any conditions. FWIW it would take | me 1-2 weeks after shifting to a polyphasic before seeing | any benefits (which makes sense, respective to jet lag). | I can easily skip a single night (without stimulants, | etc) and run off adrenaline the next day, but the day | after sleeping again I'm useless state of sleep-lag-wtf. | | Mediocre analogy: something like polyphasic sleep with | extremely disciplined sleep-hygiene is like using a stack | of high-interest credit cards for the rewards/benefits, | but if you make a mistake then there's a high cost and | it's not really tenable forever. Skipping a night of | sleep outright is basically a pay-day loan. | Obscurity4340 wrote: | [] | mrexroad wrote: | Not to be flippant, but that's called sleep deprivation. | I did this daily for 18-24mo straight, sleeping a 3h | block early morning (~4:30-7:30) and a 27min nap aligned | with my sleep/wake cycle during mid-afternoon. I did this | without caffeine, stimulants, sugar, etc. After having | more kids I couldn't keep the daily consistency required | and scaled back to 1-3x a week. I spent years convinced | that it elevated my coding, insights, etc., and there was | a degree of truth to it, as it did mitigate the worst of | my ADHD. Then I got medicated and suddenly everything in | the world that had always screamed for my attention 24/7 | started quieting down a little. It took me another decade | or two to break more of the coping mechanisms I'd | developed in my late teens for ADHD and dyslexia. I could | ramble down several tangents for paragraphs here, but | I'll just throw out my personal note that while there | were clear cognitive benefits (note: I'm sidestepping the | increasingly clear long term cognitive risks indicated in | recent research), the muscular-skeletal costs we're | greater. | | As they say, adrenaline is a hell of a drug. | Obscurity4340 wrote: | Its def not a lifestyle, I don't feel like I made that | super obvious. I'm talking about a once in a blue moon | type deal where you need a hard reset. Sorta like how | most people rarely turn off their phones, things get | fucky with it eventually, and it needs a hard reset or | reboot. Don't get too hung up on the metaphors, but I've | experienced it working and I'm not exactly an n=1 | joshspankit wrote: | For a while there have been theories stating that monophasic | sleep 8 hours a night is actually disordered sleep. Maybe | that's worth looking at again. | wouldbecouldbe wrote: | I don't know. | | Seems very correlated with people having a good reason to pull | an all nighter. | | Whether kids or business. | | Meaning makes us tick | fellowniusmonk wrote: | Yeah, meaning is great, or you know, having something | exciting or enjoyable to look forward to... but also, I used | to heavily experience this type of emotional lift from lack | of sleep but when I started taking Beta Blockers a decade ago | the benefit stopped overnight never to return. | | Adrenaline and the bodies "stress" responses really are a | wonder drug, you have to completely reconfigure your life and | processes when it goes away. | dotnet00 wrote: | Yeah I feel like this is probably a big part of it. Nothing | does away with my depressive existential dread better than | just having any kind of work to do, be it working on a | personal skill or employment related work. | culi wrote: | It's an experimental study not an observational study. So | that correlation won't have an effect here | smokel wrote: | ... in mice. | henryaj wrote: | It is very well established in humans too. | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_therapy | Murfalo wrote: | Indeed, the article title is a little misleading! Sleep | depravation producing short-term improvements in human | depression has been well known for some time. What the | authors actually propose is an underlying mechanism to that | improvement, in mice... | jl6 wrote: | > In a new study, researchers induced mild, acute sleep | deprivation in mice and then examined their behaviors and brain | activity. Not only did dopamine release increase during the | acute sleep loss period, synaptic plasticity also was enhanced | -- literally rewiring the brain to maintain the bubbly mood for | the next few days. | | What's a mouse like when it's in a bubbly mood?! | smokel wrote: | Perhaps we misread, and "their" refers to the researchers, | not to the mice! | stevenwoo wrote: | Further in the article they discuss monitoring activity of | dopamine neurons and modifying individual neurons in the | brains of these mice (which has parts analogous to human in | many ways including emotion) and describing the behavior of | sleep deprived mice which sort of implies what the normal | behavior is. | pvaldes wrote: | Are we talking about that small mammal that is a nocturnal | species? | dang wrote: | Indeed. Inmiced. Thanks! | the_cat_kittles wrote: | i have noticed i have a sleepless night every once and a while, | maybe once a month, and i usually have been feeling bad | emotionally leading up to it. and i do usually feel better the | next day, despite expecting to feel bad from no sleep | AlexandrB wrote: | I always thought it was related to anxiety. After staying up | late it feels like I'm forced to focus on what's important | because I don't have the mental capacity to let my mind wander | and worry about stuff. | bobsmooth wrote: | Once I go past 24hr I get really loopy and giggly. | jackcosgrove wrote: | Not sleeping for over 72 hours is the threshold for insanity. | slenk wrote: | I was awake that long once. I can understand why that | threshold exists | shtopointo wrote: | What about all the other studies claiming that poor sleep causes | depression? Not sure what to trust these days. Gut tells me poor | sleep won't make you ahem "your brain feel slap-happy, loopy and | almost giddy" (very scientific). | croes wrote: | From the article | | >Chronic sleep loss is well studied, and it's uniformly | detrimental effects are widely documented," Kozorovitskiy said. | "But brief sleep loss -- like the equivalent of a student | pulling an all-nighter before an exam -- is less understood. | thibaut_barrere wrote: | I guess it also depends on what your past has been. | | After going through a "sleep-deprived burnout cycle", I found | that any all-nighter will pull me back into the emotions I | got at that time, even if I feel originally great physically | & mentally. | | So, YMMV! | mrbungie wrote: | I guess just one sleepless night is not the same as chronic | poor sleep patterns. | | Also, it's interesting because sleepless nights are kind of a | sign in bipolar disorder patients that an (hypo)-manic episode | is about to occur or is actually occurring. | coldtea wrote: | > _What about all the other studies claiming that poor sleep | causes depression?_ | | What about them? | | This is about one sleepless night every several days/week for | an already depressed person. | | Not about non-depressed people continuously sleeping poorly | (which is where poor sleep would cause depression). | Jerrrry wrote: | The "morning hormonal" dump that gets offset by not sleeping | could easily shift neuro-chemistry. | | For (sufficiently) depressed people, any perceived shift is | likely going to be a improvement. | | Related, similar studies have postured that nights with | occasional stirrups lead to a more rested day, un-intuitively. | | The variation in sleep requirements within groups may have more | obvious evolutionary benefits; the security of camps overnight | depend on those who stay up overnight to stand guard or | occasionally tend to the fire. | rottencupcakes wrote: | My entire life, I've been a night owl. I'm prone to depression | in the mornings. I prefer to avoid doing anthing in the AM. In | the evenings, I can have a lot of get-up-and-go energy and can | be positive about a lot of ideas, but when I wake up the next | morning, my entire mood has shifted and I'm often quite | negative. | | Staying up all night (or only getting a few hours of sleep) | avoids that mental reset that causes my entire mood to shift. | | I wonder if this is related to the phenomenon studied. | sys32768 wrote: | Once I hit my 40s, staying up too late causes a sleep hangover | that would last a couple of days. | | Gone are my days of playing Ultima IV all night and feeling giddy | in the morning. | dralley wrote: | It doesn't work for multiple sleepless/almost-sleepless nights in | a row, ask me how I know. | croes wrote: | >Chronic sleep loss is well studied, and it's uniformly | detrimental effects are widely documented | romwell wrote: | >It doesn't work for multiple sleepless/almost-sleepless nights | in a row, ask me how I know. | | In other news, beneficial effects of a single cup of coffee | don't seem to show up after you have a dozen of them. | JaDogg wrote: | I have some experience with this. But what can happen is sometime | you overdo it and burn out physically, and depression hit at the | same time. And you will be worse off. | | Happiest time of my life was when I was going to gym regularly | (about 3 - 4 days per week) | taude wrote: | Can't wait to read about how bio-hackers are using this tool with | their optimal morning routine ice-baths and lunchtime cocaine. | romwell wrote: | >and lunchtime cocaine. | | In fact, forget the ice baths | throwaway4837 wrote: | Waking up in the mornings helps reset my mental state sometimes. | I wonder if it's related. If I have an early morning, I usually | find that I'm more productive and have more energy to work out or | focus on tasks. There's nothing more depressing than a cycle of | waking up at 2pm because you stayed up until 5am. Waking up so | late makes me feel like I'm wasting my life. | hshsbs84848 wrote: | I've found that too | | Somehow I feel really energized if I wake up like 2-3 hours | before my regular time | | But only if I haven't done it in a while | | Something about disrupting the pattern seems to throw off the | usual morning grogginess | LesZedCB wrote: | it's my favorite part about early morning flights. i don't | fly often, but when i do travel the following two weeks where | i practically jump out of bed at 6-7am are amazing. | cactusplant7374 wrote: | I have a prescription for ketamine and when I take it at night it | causes poor sleep and noticeable lethargy the next day. It's not | a great thing. | | But I think "reversing depression" is codeword for manic and | euphoria sensations. It's not targeting the core of what is | depression. | Hard_Space wrote: | Having suffered from severe depression for over forty years, this | reminds me of when I was 17, 18, etc. and suddenly discovered | that if I stayed up for two days, the problem went away. So I | knew this a very long time ago; but it always seemed to me that, | besides smoking, this was just about one of the worst habits you | could develop. By my mid-twenties, I had stopped. | Waterluvian wrote: | My anxiety now is that using THC to sleep will cause issues | long term. But without it I literally cannot get to sleep | anymore. | | Edit: I regret pulling focus off parent comment and OP, but | also deeply appreciate everyone's comments. | datameta wrote: | Try Type III cannabis (high cbd hemp). Nowadays it looks and | smells like Type I cannabis (the high thc standard variety of | weed). It has all the various combinations of cannabinoids, | terpenes, and flavonoids that contribute to the entourage | effect except for THC (<0.3%). In many if not most cases it | can do what Type I medical cannabis can do. | | i.e. amongst non-psychoactive hemp flower there are relaxing | indicas for insomnia, functional hybrids for chronic pain, | sativas for a pick-me-up, etc. | pstuart wrote: | I've not tried it yet, but CBN seems to be the winner in | this category. It's legal in all states if pure. Black | Friday is coming and I plan on getting some from a vendor | I've used in the past. Ping me for that info if you wish. | YMMV. | Loughla wrote: | So I feel like you exactly identified the long term problem | in the same paragraph. | | I learned years ago that any chemical that helps you sleep | ensures that you can't sleep without it. I've used everything | from thc to Benadryl to lavender and everything in between. | | It all had the same effects: slowly degrading effectiveness | and sleeplessness without it. | | Pro-tip: find the source of your insomnia. Is it chemical or | is it electrical or is it just habit? Doing a real sleep test | and working with doctors was life changing. Mine was habit | and anxiety. Meditation and therapy have helped. | | Anecdotal, I know. But what happens when the thc runs out? | You crash. That's what I did. | Waterluvian wrote: | Yeah. I've tried. My problem is that 3-4 days of no sleep | and I'm just about ready to sign off from this life. | | I've managed with 5mg THC pills for years. Never had to | increase the dosage. I've never ever slept well. But back | before kids it was easier to just sleep in if I had to. | | As best as I can tell, the cause is my adhd or related. My | brain will simply. Not. Stop. Racing. | omginternets wrote: | Have you tried exercising (>2h before you go to bed, | IME), staying away from screens 4h before bed, and | dimming the lights 1h before bed? | | That was a life-changer for me. | _puk wrote: | Having to quarantine in a small sauna house after | travelling introduced me to the delights of crappy | internet, multiple daily cold river swims, and no real | lighting outside of a few candles. | | Needless to say I went from awful sleep to going to bed | as the sun went down (in summer), and not waking up until | sunrise, all in the matter of days. | | Thinking back on it, I really should get back into that. | Aeolun wrote: | Almost as if we're not really built to do anything else | :) | ethanbond wrote: | I _highly_ recommend the podcast Sleep With Me. It's | extremely weird and the guy's voice isn't exactly | "comforting" the way most sleep-inducing things try to | be, but give it a few tries. | | It's basically bedtime "stories" that are more like | improvised narrative mazes that are just interesting | enough to keep your interest (and exhaust your brain) but | not interesting or meaningful enough to keep you awake. | | I went from laying awake for _hours and hours_ as a | general nightly routine to falling asleep reliably in | 10-20 minutes. I didn't even know it was possible to fall | asleep that fast. | | As a tip: There's nothing to "get" about the podcast. | It's just a treadmill for the overactive parts of your | brain. | Waterluvian wrote: | This sounds right down my alley! | Hard_Space wrote: | > just interesting enough to keep your interest (and | exhaust your brain) but not interesting or meaningful | enough to keep you awake | | Exactly. Back when I read more, I would have books to | stimulate (daytime/commute reading) and 'bedtime books', | which had to be interesting enough to read, but also | effortful and ultimately tiring enough to promote sleep. | | Now I do the same with TV shows in Plex, late at night. | Unusually, it's the documentaries that stop me sleeping, | and the classic US TV shows (that I like) that help me | drift away. | Timon3 wrote: | I used to have the same sleep problem (head won't stop | racing), and mindfulness exercises throughout the day | have greatly improved things for me. In a way it feels | like the ability to turn it down for a time, long enough | to get so tired it doesn't start back up again. | | One trick I found myself is to visualise things in the | noise from your closed eyes. Try to interpret something | you can vaguely see, and then try to visualise it. This | imposes a kind of clear image for a short duration for | me, from which I try to see and visualise something else | in there and so on, kind of like a visual association | chain. That really gets me sleepy after a couple of | minutes! | Aeolun wrote: | > visualise things in the noise from your closed eyes | | Ooh, the visualization whirlwind. This is the first time | I've ever hear anyone talk about it or had to give it a | name. At least for me it's just tons of images flashing | before my eyes, rapidly changing, only tenuously guided | by my mind. | interstice wrote: | This sounds familiar, I got to a point a few years ago | where even if I could get to sleep I'd wake up at 3-4am | with every last problem racing around my mind, but have | never felt good with any amount of sleep. | | In the end I went to the GP for anxiety and came out with | a depression diagnosis and a bottle of Lexapro. Lucky for | me I didn't get the crazy side effects and in combination | with melatonin at least getting to sleep is no longer a | problem. | | In the past I've also found that deliberately clearing my | thoughts is a way to slip from 'day mode' to those dozy | random thoughts, but its often hard to remember in the | moment and doesn't always work. | tomcam wrote: | See my profile if you'd like to create a tiny support | group. I have had horrifically bad insomnia for half a | century. At the moment I'm having luck with 600mg | gabapentin + 20mg Belsomra but that's only a couple weeks | gold. | NickC25 wrote: | I'm with you - I have a few hits of some low-grade stuff | maybe an hour or two before bed, and then I doze off | naturally when it's dark out. | | i also eat well, and make sure to not have blue light | exposure for the last hour of my day. | | But what really helped me, especially since I have crazy | ADHD, is exercise. I lift when I get up, and do 1-2 hours | of hard HIIT in the evenings after work. My body is | absolutely shot by the time I'm done so I really don't | have the energy to have my brain go all over the place. | This coupled with a nice cold plunge in the evenings | after said workouts (and another cold shower before I | sleep), and good nutrition has helped me big time. | | The THC does help, especially if I do it at the right | time. If I smoke in the afternoons I am absolutely | destroyed by sundown. I do fear it's creating an | addiction or a physical dependence, but I value my sleep | considerably. | hotpotamus wrote: | Getting to the source certainly sounds ideal, but I wonder | - if you find a variety of substances help though develop | tolerance, couldn't you rotate them to try and keep them | effective? | bobbylarrybobby wrote: | If you cannot fall asleep without a drug then I'd say the | drug has already caused issues | micromacrofoot wrote: | well the issue was not being able to fall asleep without a | drug | | so falling asleep with a drug is an improvement | bdamm wrote: | Being unable to sleep is a common withdrawal symptom for | cannabis use disorder. Congratulations, you are habituated, | and long-term problems are likely accumulating as you are | losing out on REM sleep and probably developing emotional and | physical conditions related to cannabis use. Good luck! | teaearlgraycold wrote: | Yeah. I used to smoke a tiny bit every day and it really | fucked me up. | johnnyanmac wrote: | damn, so I'm screwed and I don't even get to enjoy the | upsides of cannabis. Rough world. | cmyr wrote: | I've smoked weed before bed most nights for at least a | decade, and if I happen to skip a night I... still sleep | fine, unless I've had no exercise that day. | hotnfresh wrote: | I _can_ get to sleep without it. I just can 't be _sure_ I | 'll be able to get to sleep without it. Like 30%-40% odds | I'll have serious sleep trouble if I don't take it, so I take | it most nights. | | Amazing stuff, much better than the sleeping pill | prescription I had years back (Lunesta). | 1980phipsi wrote: | My brother basically needs THC to sleep. | | Or strenuous physical activity all day. | jackcosgrove wrote: | > Or strenuous physical activity all day. | | The lack of strenuous physical activity all day is a real | problem with modern life. We did not evolve to be | sedentary. | Waterluvian wrote: | I've added an hour of exercise to my day and while it | hasn't solve my sleeping problems, I can't live without | it anymore. It just makes _everything_ else feel easier. | tomcam wrote: | Same. Nor does all-day physical activity | manmal wrote: | Tapering off very slowly (over weeks or months) will probably | work better than cold turkey. | Waterluvian wrote: | I'm just now sure how to taper off. They don't come in | smaller doses than 5mg and that's where I'm at. | manmal wrote: | Split it until it's 0mg. | tomcam wrote: | Hang on, is it working? Didn't you say you take 5mg and | it's been working for years at that level? I'd rank that | as a win... | heavyset_go wrote: | What form is it in? If its a capsule with dissolved oil, | break the capsule and dilute the oil. | | If it's a solid, just break it. | | If you can buy a THC tincture, you can easily use | dilution and volumetric dosing to titrate your doses down | over time. | nwienert wrote: | If you can, try Semaglutide. | | I am a top % light sleeper - hard to sleep, inconsistent, | never could sleep outside of basically ideal conditions. | | Was prescribed Tirzepatide (similar to Semaglutide) and it | fixed my sleep like nothing else has - I actually _feel | tired_ at a normal hour and _doze off_ , two thing I never | really did before. At the lowest dose you won't lose weight | beyond the first few months, and you can maintain weight with | small effort even still. So even if you are completely | healthy weight, it could be useful. | | I wouldn't normally think recommending a totally unrelated | drug for sleep issues would be sane, but it also happens to | have a ton of other positive effects for me at least. And the | safety profile seems solid, esp compared to other sleep | drugs. Plus not psychoactive and actually reduces your | addictive behaviors especially in terms of nicotine/THC. | Certainly a lot better side effect profile than THC (imo, | from research). | Waterluvian wrote: | I appreciate this greatly. After reading a lot of these | comments I think I'm smart enough to realize it's time to | get help. I'll speak with them about this idea and others. | heavyset_go wrote: | A lot of "help" in this space are things like z-drugs, | benzos, antihistamines like hydroxyzine, low doses of | atypical antipsychotics like Seroquel, and | antidepressants like Trazodone and mirtazapine. | | IMO, THC can be the lesser of two evils in comparison. | pstuart wrote: | You'll get plenty of advice and it's worth evaluating it all | (as we're all different), but trazodone has been a miracle | worker in aiding sleep. It's cheap, well understood, and the | only negative aspect I've encountered is the risk of priapism | (which can sound like a joke but should be taken _very_ | seriously) | nwienert wrote: | Trazodone felt like a Nuke to me, tried it for sleep but | whew what a crazy strong (bad) feeling it gave me. | tomcam wrote: | Did nothing for me | ProfessorLayton wrote: | Same. All it did was give me an incredible hangover the | next day, blurry vision, tremors, and -- scariest of all | -- made me feel sad. Had to quit within a week. Glad it | works for others, but easily one of the worst things I've | ever tried. | yankoff wrote: | I had a period when I used THC (edibles) for sleep every day. | This was one of the worst things I have ever done to myself. | At first, you don't notice much side effects, but slowly it | creeps up on you. It makes you depressed, depletes of any | motivation, gives brain fog and you may just feel weird over | all. When I quit I was amazed by how much better I started | feeling and by how much my cognitive function improved. | | I would highly recommend getting off it asap. Maybe taper off | if you can't quit right away. First nights will be tough: | sleepless, cold sweats, crazy dreams, but then it should get | much much better. Be well! | ben_jones wrote: | ~10 years from now we're going to have better data on | chronic THC consumption and after being a heavy user I'm | pretty confident it's going to shock a lot of people with | negative externalities. | | Tip for getting off weed - start by lowering the damn | dosage. A lot of commonly used products are the equivalent | of a triple shot. And folks do it daily. | ProfessorLayton wrote: | >It makes you depressed, depletes of any motivation, gives | brain fog and you may just feel weird over all | | YMMV. That's me on a sleepless night. | heavyset_go wrote: | Look into weaker THC analogues like delta-8-THC or | delta-10-THC. They have weaker binding profiles and half- | lives than normal THC does. | | Same thing with CBD and its analogues. | | CBN will knock me out and it isn't active at CB1 like THC is, | so it doesn't get you high. | thowaway91234 wrote: | I recently was forced off of SSRIs after nearly ten years | because I lost my psychiatrist and couldn't get a new one | because the waitlists were ridiculous. | | After 10 years on them, the next 6 months were absolute hell (i | legit thought at one point I might go full Joaquin Phoenix in | Joker) but I made it through, no small part thanks to my | wonderful amazing wife. | | Rebound depression have been an issue - though in general I | feel like I am much better off without the antidepressants now | than with them - and I've also noticed that pulling an all | nighter would actually fix the rebounds for a bit. A small dose | of melatonin before bed worked wonders for me now. I sleep | better and the rebounds are extremely rare. | erikpukinskis wrote: | Just a side note for anyone reading: you can get an SSRI | prescription from your GP (general practitioner i.e. normal | doctor) you don't need to go through a psychiatrist. | | This is especially true if you are at risk for withdrawal, | they will want to prevent that. | fsckboy wrote: | any medical doctor of any specialization can legally | prescribe anything. that doesn't make it a good idea. a | piece of supporting evidence is that the doctor's | malpractice insurance may not cover any "cowboy" | prescribing tendencies. | ksenzee wrote: | GPs routinely prescribe SSRIs. Even pediatricians. At | least in the US. | H8crilA wrote: | A lot of non-psychiatrist doctors prescribe SSRIs around | the world, and that's a very good thing. These drugs are | safe. | ksenzee wrote: | Agreed. | erikpukinskis wrote: | That's fair. But I'll note that the "General" in "General | Practitioner" means they specialize in the wide range of | health problems that occur frequently in the general | population. That includes things like depression, | anxiety, ADHD, etc. | | I wouldn't advocate you get a prescription for | antipsychotics from your orthopedist, but SSRIs from a GP | is probably pretty safe. | | Obviously, it depends on the doctor and the symptoms. But | a good GP will also refer you out to a specialist when | needed. That's a big part of their job: assessing when to | call in a specialist. | rl3 wrote: | As other comments said, GPs routinely prescribe SSRIs. | Moreover, it's not remotely cowboy to ensure continuity | of care arising from exigent circumstances. | 3c6bYDXLMj wrote: | You can always tell when someone is American because | they'll make statements like this without qualifying it | with a jurisdiction. | | Where I live? This is 100% factually false. | brokencode wrote: | If all you need is a refill on a prescription you've been | taking for 10 years, how is that "cowboy" prescribing? | Also, these are trained professionals with years of | education we're talking about, not some random dude off | the street. | Hard_Space wrote: | > would actually fix the rebounds for a bit. | | I can't prove it, but even dumb teenage me felt instinctively | that extreme sleep deprivation was likely to take a long and | possibly permanent toll. I don't think anything that extreme | can really be practiced in moderation, because it's more like | taking heroin than eating too many cakes, etc., i.e., it's | not a 'granular' indulgence. | | I would hesitate to call this a hot take on my part, since I | am guessing that in that period of my life, I probably stayed | up for two days on several hundred occasions, if not more. | | For anyone else suffering from severe depression, this is an | easy answer, maybe; but there are better easy answers than | this. Cannabis (I am not a partaker since I was an student) | would be better than this. | | Really, do anything but this. It's not 'free'; nothing that | works is free. | Mortiffer wrote: | That's terrible man. | | I hate being dependent on a doc. Try to reduce this horrible | risk by going up and down on dose to get a little stock pile | to feel a bit safer. | | But changes little I guess | PreachSoup wrote: | Seems that I'm in the opposite. If I don't get enough sleep I | would have noticeable bad mood. | zdragnar wrote: | Weird, whenever I pull an all nighter my mood is usually | noticeably depressed for the following two days. | | I also used to be a bit of an insomniac, and one sleepless night | could easily throw off my circadian rhythm, creating all sorts of | extra anxiety, which translates into demand avoidance, stress and | furthering depression. | baxtr wrote: | Is your normal state depressed though? I don't think it works | for "normal" people. | Kbelicius wrote: | The study was done on mice. Are there depressed mouse that | are used in such experiments or is this just an opinion on | why zdragnar might not feel these effects? This is a genuine | question. | baxtr wrote: | Ah god to know. I missed the mice part... I feel the same | as OP. Whenever I miss a night I'm in a terrible mood. It | was just my opinion. | WJW wrote: | It is possible to artificially induce depression in mice, | yes. Obviously, the whole field is insanely fraught with | ethical dilemmas. | kzrdude wrote: | This is like me too. I'm normally not depressed, but every time | sleep is affected, it throws me off and leads me down to | viewing the world negatively. | Hard_Space wrote: | Yes, the 'sleep hangover': the after-effect that told me that | what I was doing to myself by regularly staying up for 48 hours | was similar to drinking a quart or two of scotch. | jvm___ wrote: | https://www.reddit.com/r/hangovereffect/ | | This sub-reddit is dedicated to people who've noticed this effect | for ADHD and probably depression as well. Drinking alcohol | somehow causes the same 'reversal' of symptoms, either motivation | or other mood problems. Lots of discussion as to what causes it - | and questions/theories on how to reproduce without alcohol. | | Alcohol causing sleeplessness, or sleep that's not the usual | quality might be an explanation. | SkyPuncher wrote: | Shame that I cannot view that without the app | Tempest1981 wrote: | https://old.reddit.com/r/hangovereffect/ | disiplus wrote: | I have ADHD, did never tried it with alcohol, but sleep | deprivation works. I used it when working on important projects | with deadlines. You kind of feel like in a parallel universe | after a couple of a day if it's a interesting subject for you, | ADHD gives you hyper focus, and sleep deprivation gives you | this energy to push thru. It's like you don't even need the | medication. If you combine it with ADHD medications it's like | delirium. But anyway it comes all crashing after couple of days | and you have to pick yourself up. I did it for import projects, | but don't recommend it. | lucia-goldsmith wrote: | The article "One Sleepless Night Can Rapidly Reverse Depression | for Several Days" is a fascinating and promising piece of | research. The findings suggest that sleep loss could be a | potential treatment for depression, which is a debilitating | condition that affects millions of people worldwide. | | I am particularly interested in the implications of this research | for many people. I believe that this research could lead to new | and innovative treatments for depression, which would be a major | breakthrough in the field of mental health. | | However, I am also aware of the potential risks associated with | sleep loss. Sleep is essential for physical and mental health, | and sleep deprivation can have a number of negative consequences, | including cognitive impairment, increased risk of accidents, and | worsening of existing mental health conditions. | | Therefore, I believe that it is important to carefully consider | the potential benefits and risks of sleep loss before using it as | a treatment for depression. More research is needed to determine | whether sleep loss can be safely and effectively used in a | clinical setting. | | I am optimistic that this research will lead to new and effective | treatments for depression. I am also hopeful that this research | will raise awareness of the importance of sleep for both physical | and mental health. | IntrepidPig wrote: | Was this written by an LLM? | lucia-goldsmith wrote: | No, it was not written by a language model (LLM). I know one | of the authors, Mingzheng Wu, and have followed his work | closely, including his papers on the rapid enhancement of | glutamate-evoked dendritic spinogenesis in the medial | prefrontal cortex through dopaminergic mechanisms, and the | suppression of neuropathic pain through inhibition of YAP/TAZ | activity in the spinal cord. | warthog wrote: | If you mean the comment, I think so. That's why it is | probably flagged | myth_drannon wrote: | You get rid of depression but acquire dementia. | maipen wrote: | The article actualy says that if it's a routine thing then | other problems will start to set in, obviously. They also | mention that your probably better off going for a walk or going | to the gym. This is just another possible tool that we could | use strategicaly, but very rarely, to combat depression or | feeling down. | aatd86 wrote: | I'm not depressed but just in case, time to go clubbin' like I'm | nineteen again. | tomcam wrote: | Weirdly I am in my 60s and have no trouble pulling all- | nighters. I went clubbing like twice in my 20s and found it | dull af, but coding all night is still not a problem for me. | | I have always been an atrocious sleeper. | permo-w wrote: | the problem with this is that sleep loss has myriad other | consequences; something I often discover when I take ADHD | medication. it's all well and good being productive for a day, | but when you wake up the next day at 2pm, things start to fall | apart | pazimzadeh wrote: | And can promote mania/psychosis, which seem related (higher | energy levels) | chupapimunyenyo wrote: | > Chronic sleep loss is well studied, and it's uniformly | detrimental effects are widely documented," Kozorovitskiy said. | | I believe he didn't say "it's", he probably said "its". | m463 wrote: | sort of interesting how your/you're, its/it's, | shrimps/softwares and others sort of unconsciously makes what | you're reading less authoritative in a 4th wall way. | chupapimunyenyo wrote: | Not even unconsciously, I stop reading anything I've been | reading once I meet one of these. It's disrespectful to the | reader to not even check what's the correct spelling of a | word you are using, and in my opinion indicates that the | writer is not intelligent enough to recognize patterns in | text, it really isn't that hard to see how a word is used in | the wild. Kind of a hot take | kzrdude wrote: | You can't put all people on a scale like that, less | intelligent vs more intelligent. Some people are great with | letters and words and spot typos quickly, some just don't | see it as easily. They can still be very intelligent in | other aspects. People are different. | chupapimunyenyo wrote: | You know, you are right. I agree, but it still drives me | nuts seeing this, maybe it's just ignorance? I expect a | higher standard from a .edu website | bussetta wrote: | Whenever I feel down, I binge watch something usually late into | nights and I feel better next day. I wonder if it's due to the | lack of sleep. | simonbarker87 wrote: | Same for me. I don't feel stress in the typical way, in fact | for years I don't think I got stressed. My wife eventually | correlated me "checking out" for a few evenings in a row and | smashing through a TV series or two as my stress relief valve. | To me I just thought I wanted to watch TV, to her she noticed | it always happened when events around me would be making other | people "be stressed out". | Terr_ wrote: | Periodically skipping-a-sleep (in order to shift the next | bedtime) is also one approach to treat Delayed Sleep Phase | Syndrome (DSPS), which is also correlated to depression. | warthog wrote: | Well that's good news. Hate sleep | k8svet wrote: | It's just anecdata, and I am delighted to say that other | lifestyle changes have eliminated most of my anxiety/depression, | but this was definitely I hack I learned on my own and used at | times. | ltr_ wrote: | nice to know, kind of suspected that. for me, a good non sleep | night = bye cockroach mode and hello overenthusiastic maniac for | a week. quite a ride. 100% recommended. | darkerside wrote: | If you've never tried a Ragnar race, you should consider it. It's | a 36 hour-ish team relay race, with non runners driving in a van | to meet runners at the next relay spot. You barely sleep, but the | 1-2 hours you get are probably the deepest you'll ever feel. The | next day you are exhausted and yet feel amazing at the same time. | jackcosgrove wrote: | The mice's symptoms when sleep deprived sound very similar to | hypomanic symptoms. The same electrochemical circuits are likely | involved, in one case a chemical imbalance inducing | sleeplessness, and in another sleeplessness inducing a chemical | imbalance. | girafffe_i wrote: | I used to love Mondays, I would work hard during the week | studying and working, then Friday I would stay up until sunrise | with friends drinking or gaming. I kept this up while working in | the corporate world and thought "this is what people mean by | feeling refreshed" | | It wasn't until I met someone who bent me to be on her schedule, | early to bed early to rise on the weekends, where I started | feeling depressed by the end of the week, getting Sunday scaries, | and having late onset insomnia. | | Complete anecdata, but I'm going to start practicing this again | on Fridays to see what happens. | squarepizza wrote: | Same. I'm completely anhedonic by Friday when I box myself into | a schedule like this, which makes enjoying the weekend feel | like a chore. | robust-cactus wrote: | So sleep well and avoid dementia but stop sleeping to avoid | depression | hihungryimdad wrote: | I have experience with this and commented on a similar thread in | 2018. | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16557500#16558442 | | Update if anyone cares: I feel like I'm damn near 100%. | tomcam wrote: | None of that worked for me but the important thing is... | WONDERFUL that you're still on track! Thanks for sharing and | congrats. | ineedasername wrote: | Not for me. I think this will vary by person, especially as | causes of depression vary and the whole phenomena is not fully | understood. | | But for me, depression can be bouts of fatigue and lethargy, but | also are sometimes accompanied by crippling thoughts off.. well, | things that keep me awake. And losing an entire nights sleep like | that was not at all helpful. I felt just as bad or worse, only | with some additional things related to sleep loss mixed in. | | That said, I also know (not from experience) that even in | "normal" people, skipping too much sleep can produce minor bouts | of mania (where mania can vary from highly unpleasant to highly | energetic/productive/euphoric) so it does make sense to me that | some depressed patients response positively to it. | tomcam wrote: | Not for me either. But my insomnia is incredibly bad. | Daunk wrote: | Huh, so maybe that's why I felt like my depression was better in | my younger years, cause I slept less? | arkades wrote: | We have known about sleep deprivation causing a remission in | suicidal ideation for a while - we have inferred a depression | benefit as well, but it's nice to have it quantified. | | However, we also know resumption of sleep pretty quickly ends the | effect. It's not a sustainable intervention, so much as it an | interesting finding for hypothesis generation. | | We also see the reverse effect in mania; on balance, regular | healthy sleep wins the day. | philipov wrote: | Isn't that just a hypomanic episode? | jrflowers wrote: | For those that enjoy sleep, smoke salvia instead! | | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2721268/ | pedalpete wrote: | The impact of sleep restriction on depression has been known for | decades (though most of the research I'm seeing is from late | 2010s on [1], this link says "from the beginning of the last | century [2]) | | However, sleep deprivation as a treatment needs to be balanced | with the health impact of sleep deprivation itself. | | A single night of lost sleep can have significantly detrimental | impact on long-term health. Insulin response tanks, cortisol | levels increase, HRV decreases, and this becomes a viscious | cycle. In addition to increased beta-amyloid deposits associated | with Alzheimers [3]. | | [1] https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news- | releases/2017/septemb... [2] | https://www.minervamedica.it/en/journals/minerva-psychiatry/... | [3] https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research- | matters/sleep-d... | Zetobal wrote: | I am bipolar and when I am in an depressive episode I use the | same technique the lift the burden a bit | havblue wrote: | Now that I'm thinking about this, you can pull in an all-nighter | on Thursday then wfh on Friday and just catch up on sleep over | the weekend. People at work won't mind and the wife and kids will | be okay as long as you're caught up for Saturday. This was timely | advice. | arthurofbabylon wrote: | In my life, I've observed occasional sleepless nights (one night | per 1-3 month period) to coincide with positive moods, abundant | activity, and a general sense of fulfillment. And when my mood | and motivation drops, I reflect back and recall that it's been a | while since I've enjoyed a sleep-free night. | | I've always conceived of this as a consequence of being highly | dynamic - my system is being stretched/pushed/twisted/strained by | skipping sleep [1] - and a correlation to generally being | enthusiastic about what's going on (I stayed up all night in the | first place because I was obsessed with a fun problem). Of | course, it is difficult to parse cause/effect/correlation, so I'm | aware of the limits of these observations [2]. However, from the | beginning I've felt confident that these sleepless nights were | part of a broader pattern of good health. | | [1] - As a general rule, I find "stress" to be healthy if it is | acute (but survivable!) and unhealthy if it is chronic. This case | (sleep) fits the rule... infrequent sleepless nights have a net | positive effect, and prolonged sleep deprivation (even mild) is | absolutely terrible for pretty much all aspects of health. | | [2] - In observing my sense of happiness, I consider "seasons," | or 3-6 months periods, so the previous analysis is actually quite | feasible. Do I wake up motivated? Do I feel pleasure lying down | to sleep? Am I being kind to the people in my life? Do I enjoy | interacting with acquaintances? Do I feel capable? To me these | questions offer clarity on some rough level of happiness, and | makes possible an imperfect analysis of the effects of something | like a sleepless night or other lifestyle change. It's not | perfect - but it doesn't need to be perfect, as it is already a | more effective analysis than the alternative (no analysis at | all). ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-11-02 23:00 UTC)