[HN Gopher] Steam Deck OLED
___________________________________________________________________
Steam Deck OLED
Author : robbiet480
Score : 582 points
Date : 2023-11-09 17:55 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (store.steampowered.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (store.steampowered.com)
| robbiet480 wrote:
| This looks like a fantastic upgrade. Here's a info dump of all
| the differences between this and the LCD one that I could find:
|
| 64 and 512GB LED models are dead
|
| Wi-Fi 6E
|
| 10Whr more battery
|
| it's a larger display. 7.4" vs 7"
|
| 6nm APU vs 7nm
|
| 256GB LCD now $399 (INSANE price)
|
| 30-50% more battery
|
| screen resolution is the same
|
| just OLED + HDR
|
| 1000 nits peak/600 typical vs 400 typical
|
| 90hz refresh rate
|
| "high performance touch"
|
| dual ambient light sensors
|
| 640 grams vs 669 grams
|
| deck dock now $20 less
|
| limited edition color way available too
| SirMaster wrote:
| This is just copy-paste from the steamdeck site:
|
| GENERAL
|
| Updated APU to 6 nm for better efficiency
|
| Updated memory to 6400 MT/s, improving latency and power
| management
|
| Increased thermal module thickness and performance
|
| Increased active area to 7.4" (from 7.0")
|
| UPDATED DISPLAY
|
| Updated refresh rate to 90Hz (from 60Hz)
|
| Updated peak brightness to 1000 nits
|
| Updated touchscreen polling rate to 180Hz, improved latency and
| accuracy
|
| Updated WiFi / Bluetooth module
|
| Added support for WiFi 6E
|
| Added support for Bluetooth 5.3, supporting newer codecs such
| as aptX HD and aptX low-latency
|
| Added third antenna near the top of the device for better
| Bluetooth performance, including when docked
|
| Added support for wake from Bluetooth controllers
|
| AUDIO
|
| Improved bass response for an overall flatter sound profile
|
| Added support for using onboard microphone array simultaneously
| with the 3.5mm headphones connector
|
| CONTROLS
|
| Adjusted analog stick top material and shape for increased grip
| and dust build-up resistance
|
| Adjusted analog stick post material to improve interaction feel
| with front cover and reduce wear
|
| Improved reliability of analog stick touch detection
|
| Improved responsiveness and tactility of shoulder buttons
| switch mechanism
|
| Adjusted D-pad snap ratio and diagonal interactions
|
| Redesigned trackpad for improved fidelity and edge detection
|
| Greatly improved trackpad haptics feel and precision
|
| POWER
|
| Improved battery capacity from 40Wh to 50Wh
|
| Improved battery chemistry for faster charging, from 20% to 80%
| in as little as 45 minutes
|
| Changed charging LED to WRGB
|
| Added support for waking up from initial unboxing by long-
| pressing power button instead of requiring AC power
|
| Adjusted power supply cable length from 1.5m to 2.5m
|
| Added logo to power supply
|
| FRAME Reduced total system weight to ~640g, or ~5% less than
| Steam Deck
|
| Rear cover screws now thread into metal
|
| Adjusted rear cover screw heads to Torx(tm), as well as other
| materials and geometry tweaks on the heads to reduce stripping
| risk
|
| Lowered number of screw types throughout system
|
| Reduced step count required for common repairs
|
| Improved bumper switch mechanism drop reliability
|
| Moved bumper switch to joystick board for easier repair
|
| Improved display repair/replacement to not require taking rear
| cover off
|
| SOFTWARE
|
| Greatly improved memory power management firmware
|
| Added preliminary support for open-source BIOS and EC firmware
|
| Improved resume time by roughly 30%
| superconduct123 wrote:
| I like how it reads like patch notes, no BS
|
| Imagine if apple releases had this
| ratsmack wrote:
| >This item is not available in your country
|
| I'm in the US, so that seems kinda strange.
| whalesalad wrote:
| > Available November 16 at 10am Pacific
| titaniumtown wrote:
| Also being in the US, I do not see that message, I only see the
| Nov 16th release date.
| danso wrote:
| I'm in the U.S. and am getting the Available on Nov 16 button,
| but worth noting this note at the bottom of the Deck homepage:
|
| > _Steam Deck Limited Edition is an experiment for our team,
| and we were only able to make a small quantity. That said, we
| hope this is a successful experiment and customers are excited
| - if we see there is a large demand for this kind of product,
| we will definitely continue to explore more colorways in the
| future._
| jwr wrote:
| > I'm in the US, so that seems kinda strange.
|
| I love this comment :-) So much to appreciate here.
|
| As someone who sees the "not available in your country" quite
| often, I'm delighted with this mistake (it must be a mistake).
| abound wrote:
| There is of course a lot of US-centrism and exceptionalism
| out there, but GP could just more benignly be noting that
| Valve is an American company, so it really would be strange
| for them to not launch in the US as part of the first cohort.
| justinclift wrote:
| I'm getting that same message, but am in Australia.
|
| From memory it's _actually_ not available here, due to our
| government level consumer protection people not putting up with
| Valve 's bullshit a few years ago.
| titaniumtown wrote:
| Very excited for future hardware from Valve. Especially excited
| for the rumored VR headset that'll double as a set-top-box for
| your TV (at least that's what I've heard).
| Vt71fcAqt7 wrote:
| Can anyone comment on how using OLED might affect total power
| consumption?
|
| Edit:
|
| >Steam Deck OLED has 30-50% more battery life. We fit a bigger
| battery into the case, and the OLED display draws less power.
| a_e_k wrote:
| From the link:
|
| > We fit a bigger battery into the case, and the OLED display
| draws less power.
| titaniumtown wrote:
| My understanding of OLED vs LCD displays is that LCDs are more
| consistent in power draw, but OLEDs draw less power with darker
| pictures, but more power with brighter images. So it depends on
| the brightness and the colors in the scene.
| dmead wrote:
| so play zelda mostly in the underground. got it.
| bonyt wrote:
| Apparently there's also a die shrink on the SoC, which is
| otherwise the same but should draw less power.
| jsncisbd wrote:
| I hope they include a proper rumble pack this time, the haptic
| trackpad things were a little anemic. Very happy with it
| otherwise though.
| Hamuko wrote:
| Really tempted to replace my current Steam Deck with one. Got one
| in January and I've put 215 hours on it so far. It's a fantastic
| piece of kit and the improvements sound like they could be worth
| the expense.
|
| (Wrote some thoughts about it after six months of ownership here:
| https://burakku.com/blog/steam-deck-six-month-update/ )
|
| The one thing that I am wondering though is if the Wi-Fi 6E alone
| can boost download speeds. Seemed to me like the poor download
| speeds were also because of the storage bottlenecking. Although
| the Wi-Fi is definitely the weakest part of the current Steam
| Deck hardware, being quite unreliable at times, so any
| improvements on that front are welcome.
| titaniumtown wrote:
| I have the 512GB model of the original Steam Deck and have put
| hundreds of hours in it as well. I'm personally waiting for the
| true successor to the Steam Deck. This is simply a refresh.
| VikingCoder wrote:
| Yeah, I feel like there needs to be language to describe new
| versions like this:
|
| * If you're going to buy one for the first time, the new one
| is the one to get.
|
| * It's worth replacing your old one.
|
| This is probably not worth replacing your old Steam Deck
| (unless you have a lot of money to throw around.) But it's
| really nice for people who haven't bought one until now.
| sedatk wrote:
| > because of the storage bottlenecking
|
| Higher end models come with an NVMe SSD. No way that's slow.
| Hamuko wrote:
| Well, over half of my storage is on microSD anyways. But even
| with a wired connection over a USB-C dock, the download
| speeds were not that stellar. If Wi-Fi is 13 MB/s, then wired
| was maybe like 40? This is on a 1000 Mb/s connection.
| nerdjon wrote:
| I am mildly tempted to upgrade to this, it seems kinda weird that
| the OLED is the same resolution? Doesn't it? Maybe I am just out
| of touch. But I guess at least that means it won't have a
| performance impact.
|
| As much as I love my steam deck, it kinda sucks to use after
| using my OLED Switch after a while. That screen is just beautiful
| (especially for Mario Wonder).
|
| I have been looking for alternatives for a while now, with the
| Asus Rog Ally or the Legion Go but the lack of the 4 back
| controls being vertical have made both of those a no go for me.
|
| Kinda wish it was beefed up a little bit (technically it looks
| like it is, the GPU is no longer listed as a range if you scroll
| down, but I am not sure why that is).
|
| I just want official word that the drivers and everything still
| work on Windows. I assume it will
| izacus wrote:
| They deliberately said they don't want to change performance
| characteristics - which is pretty normal for console refreshes.
| nerdjon wrote:
| TBH I don't buy that argument, we are talking about PC games
| that have handled scaling for a very long time. This is
| standard if you are making PC games.
|
| The Steam Deck really isn't a console in any traditional
| sense of the word. With there now being multiple devices like
| this out there, I don't think that argument works.
| titaniumtown wrote:
| Valve wants the Steam Deck to fit in the Console space and
| be a easy gateway for less-techy people to play PC games.
| nerdjon wrote:
| But I have yet to see any indication from a development
| standpoint that it is.
|
| PC games already automatically figure out what specs to
| use (or at least many do) so I am still struggling with
| this argument.
|
| The argument completely falls apart when you have devices
| like the Asus Rog Ally or the Legion GO.
|
| It also falls apart when, unless I am mistaken, SteamOS
| is open for anyone to use on other devices.
| enragedcacti wrote:
| A single performance target means devs can fairly easily
| make tweaks and fixes to get "Verified Compatible" with
| Steam Deck which means more games work on ALL steam decks
| and its easier for casual consumers to just pick it up,
| buy some games, and have a good experience without
| knowing anything about PC gaming.
|
| The Ally and the Legion GO (and other power constrained
| devices/devices with APUs) will benefit from some devs'
| performance and power optimizations for steam deck, and
| SteamOS based devices will benefit from fixes that work
| around issues with proton, both of which would be less
| likely to be addressed if there weren't an entire market
| of consumers you can access by getting that "Verified"
| badge.
| nerdjon wrote:
| > The Ally and the Legion GO (and other power constrained
| devices/devices with APUs) will benefit from some devs'
| performance and power optimizations for steam deck, and
| SteamOS based devices will benefit from fixes that work
| around issues with proton, both of which would be less
| likely to be addressed if there weren't an entire market
| of consumers you can access by getting that "Verified"
| badge
|
| IF that is the case, then the argument for why they would
| not increase the performance is not valid. They could
| have kept the same resolution but made it more powerful.
|
| You can't say other devices will benefit and still make
| the argument that the steam deck had to stay at the same
| performance level. It's one or the other.
|
| It's perfectly fine that Valve didn't want to upgrade it
| but I just don't buy the argument.
| enragedcacti wrote:
| It's not one or the other because the concern isn't for
| the owners of the new Deck, its for the owners of the old
| one. Any meaningful increase in power will create a
| scenario where the new deck can play games that the old
| one cannot which would be confusing for consumers and
| would weaken developer incentives to create a good
| experience on the older deck.
|
| When you factor in that the niche market of slightly more
| powerful $600+ handhelds is already served by 4+
| different players I just don't see why Valve would need
| to jump into it at this point. The marginal benefit is
| not worth the risk of fracturing the deck community and
| burning early adopters.
|
| Also I should have made it more clear, but only some
| patches targeting the steam deck will trickle up to
| higher performance devices. Some patches will be things
| like "low shadows look like crap but medium shadows are
| just barely too much for the deck, lets lower medium a
| bit so that it can run well". I only mention that some
| patches will help other mobile devices because in my view
| its a win-win for the entire market that Valve is
| committed to providing a common denominator.
| delecti wrote:
| On the contrary, I'd say that the Steam Deck has a lot in
| common with consoles, _especially_ as modern consoles (PS5
| and XSX) converge with PCs. The Steam Deck comes with a
| store integrated into the frontend, a verification process,
| and standardized controls and performance targets. It 's
| basically a "pre-jailbroken" console. At the same time, the
| XBox Series S is showing a big reason why Valve might want
| to keep a single performance target for a longer than the
| normal constantly evolving hardware in PCs, and both it and
| the PS5 digital have removed any sort of physical
| distribution aspect to the definition of consoles.
| charcircuit wrote:
| >especially as modern consoles (PS5 and XSX) converge
| with PCs.
|
| What makes you think this is true?
| Arainach wrote:
| Sure, but changing the resolution and changing the scaling
| means changing the performance metrics.
|
| If one device is 1080p and one is 2160p, then even if both
| "render" at 1080 and one scales up to 2160 that is a change
| in performance. They don't want developers to have to test
| on multiple devices to see if it gets laggy on the one with
| the higher-res screen.
| userinanother wrote:
| I'm still waiting for performance gen 2 to come out. I think
| that's going to be the sweet spot
| angryasian wrote:
| >I just want official word that the drivers and everything
| still work on Windows.
|
| I thought steam deck doesn't run windows ? You install windows
| on your steam deck ?
| nerdjon wrote:
| Yeah you can dual boot Windows and there are official drivers
| for it.
|
| It is the primary way I use my steam deck.
| titaniumtown wrote:
| It runs a version of Arch Linux called SteamOS. I don't see a
| reason for Windows to run on it.
| breakfastduck wrote:
| Some games have anti cheat that only work on Windows.
| interroboink wrote:
| I thought Steam Deck used Proton, which allowed that
| stuff to mostly work without modification, even when
| running on Linux? (basically Wine+extras)
| rpmisms wrote:
| Anti-cheat is usually a kernel extension, I don't think
| you can do that in Proton.
|
| Edit: yes, I know EAC is Linux supported, but you can't
| use proton to run a Windows kernel extension.
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| Proton has some support for easy anti cheat.
| https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2022/02/proton-7-easy-anti-
| che...
| nazgulsenpai wrote:
| It seems to be up to the developer, as many anti-cheat
| support Linux if the developer wants it to.
|
| Elden Ring uses Easy Anticheat which works fine in
| Proton, but Black Desert also uses EAC and it doesn't.
| Phantasy Star Online 2 works with Proton-GE and it used
| GameGuard and now Uncheater.
|
| Here's a crowdsourced list of games with anticheat that
| do or do not work with Proton: https://www.protondb.com/e
| xplore?selectedFilters=antiCheat
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| Valve tries to make it easy to run a proton-compatible
| anti-cheat system which I believe is built in to steam
| libraries, but developers still have to choose to use it
| notably Microsoft seemed totally uninterested in using a
| proton compatible EAC for Halo Master Chief Collection
| last time I checked earlier this year. I read online it
| should have been easy to switch to the proton compatible
| EAC but some devs might not want to.
| ThatPlayer wrote:
| Halo: MCC specifically did get support for it a few
| months ago. But anti-cheat is still very dependent on the
| game.
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| That is nice to know thanks! I figured it would come
| eventually, I'm glad they added it.
| gruturo wrote:
| Agreed, but that wasn't the question. Yes it does run
| Windows natively if you want. They even have all the
| necessary drivers offered for download at a single page: ht
| tps://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/6121-ECCD-D643-BA.
| ..
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| Not by default. But you absolutely can setup dual boot if you
| care to.
|
| I've used stock steam deck since its release and love it to
| death; but it's super flexible for those who want to install
| other stuff or play with it :)
| giobox wrote:
| > it seems kinda weird that the OLED is the same resolution?
|
| Given the specifications of the rest of the device, I'm
| extremely happy the resolution remained the same! A bump to
| 1080p or similar would make games on the limited CPU/GPU that
| much harder to run at a reasonable frame rate while keeping a
| sharp image. This does not strike me as weird in the slightest
| - it's common sense to do here.
|
| Not to mention how much hotter the device would run - you would
| be spending much more time at 15w+ in many titles, which is
| where the Deck starts to get hot/noisy fans spinning, and of
| course battery life drops.
| ThatPlayer wrote:
| I don't think it's as big a deal with Steam Deck using
| gamescope and system-wide FSR to upscale the image. It's
| already used if you plug a Deck into a 4k TV: the game
| defaults to running at 720p still.
|
| With newer games having decoupled 3D render resolution and
| FSR2, a bump in output resolution no longer means an increase
| in CPU/GPU required. While allowing older games that aren't
| as resource intensive to run at 1080p.
| badsectoracula wrote:
| For me it'd be a big deal as FSR1 looks awful and FSR2
| looks bad - the whole "decoupling render resolution from
| output resolution" is a delusion for trying to push current
| GPUs to do things they are not really capable of doing. In
| 10 years we'll be looking back and make fun of how smeary,
| ghosty and blurry everything was.
| ThatPlayer wrote:
| > trying to push current GPUs to do things they are not
| really capable of doing
|
| Sure, but until we get better GPUs, it's still the better
| solution to not being able to play it at all. Especially
| with the Steam Deck being battery powered, so you can't
| just brute force it with higher frequencies or more
| hardware. Even this new Steam Deck doesn't include a
| better GPU.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| Exactly. Maybe my eyes are not good enough, but I've
| literally never ever wished for more resolution - and
| _especially_ not as an immediate and unavoidable tradeoff to
| power /battery/framerate/weight/heat/noise!
|
| I do not need same resolution on my 7" device as on my 27"
| monitor :)
| Steltek wrote:
| Seems like the back buttons are a worthy tradeoff if you're
| looking for a Windows-based handheld. The Ally is faster and
| has some nifty tricks but Windows holds it back, compared to
| the snappy, polished feel of the Deck.
| nerdjon wrote:
| For me it is not, I use my Steam Deck has a way to carry the
| games that I play with a controller on my PC or Console...
| mobile. I use an Elite Xbox Controller and rely heavily on
| the back buttons.
|
| TBH I don't think Windows holds it back when once I am in the
| game (the part that matters) the experience is the same.
| sangnoir wrote:
| > TBH I don't think Windows holds it back when once I am in
| the game (the part that matters)
|
| Being able to instantaneously[1] pause and resume games on
| the Steam deck makes for a pretty great experience. The
| non-gaming parts also matter a lot in a portable gaming
| device.
|
| 1. In 3 seconds or less
| coffeebeqn wrote:
| Is the APU update notable? From 7nm to 6nm process
| goosedragons wrote:
| Performance isn't really better but RAM speeds are a bit better
| which boosts things a little. Digital foundry says it runs
| cooler and quieter. It does have better battery life but it
| also has a larger battery and more efficient screen.
| VikingCoder wrote:
| Tested review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfoLRmKwnSI
| angryasian wrote:
| As a Ally user, still not enough to get me to switch but I love
| the competition that Steam ignited with the handheld PC gaming
| market. Ally, Legion Go, Steamdeck, Ayaneo Kun, etc. A lot of
| great devices on the market.
|
| I've played more PC games now than I have in the last 10 years.
| ShamelessC wrote:
| Do the various other handheld PC's tend to run Windows or Linux
| with proton?
| umeshunni wrote:
| Ally and Legion Go run Windows
| RosanaAnaDana wrote:
| If they were on SteamOS or some other linux variant for
| this use case, I probably would have gone with them. The
| hardware _is_ much better.
|
| But the UI; how I actually interact with the system? I care
| about that.
| Narishma wrote:
| Windows. They have a sub-par user experience because of that
| compared to the Steam Deck. Windows just doesn't work that
| well on small screens like these, and the custom UIs they
| have are the usual bloatware you find in "gaming" products.
| ilrwbwrkhv wrote:
| No they only run the niche operating system called Windows.
| netcraft wrote:
| mine might have to become a hand-me-down and make this my
| christmas present...
| geoffeg wrote:
| My biggest complaint about my Steam Deck is the contrast ratio on
| the LCD screen. The backlight bleed bothers me more than it
| should, but I think I've gotten used to LCDs with very good
| contrast ratios over the last ten years. I'm considering
| upgrading, but wondering how much my current 512GB would sell
| for.
| hahla wrote:
| Pretty underwhelming sales page, they should probably showcase
| the screen more?
|
| Edit: Nevermind, the link in the HN post is not the actual
| landing page.
| rlex wrote:
| Gotta love that they know how people tinker with their devices:
|
| Rear cover screws now thread into metal
|
| Adjusted rear cover screw heads to Torx(tm), as well as other
| materials and geometry tweaks on the heads to reduce stripping
| risk
|
| Lowered number of screw types throughout system
|
| Reduced step count required for common repairs
|
| Improved bumper switch mechanism drop reliability
|
| Moved bumper switch to joystick board for easier repair
|
| Improved display repair/replacement to not require taking rear
| cover off
| throitallaway wrote:
| Wow, it's very rare for companies to move in this direction.
| This is the polar opposite direction of what Apple's been
| doing.
| nicce wrote:
| If you do it well, the polar opposite just boots your
| marketing and overall goodness.
| rbjorklin wrote:
| Steam is not a publicly traded company. Their decisions don't
| necessarily have to improve profit margins.
| haunter wrote:
| >Their decisions don't necessarily have to improve profit
| margins
|
| They can always rely on the gambling money. Takes 0 effort
| (all digital), unregulated, and it's enormously popular on
| Steam.
| spiderice wrote:
| You're trying to muddy the waters by calling it gambling.
| Gaming and digital loot boxes are different. Even if they
| share some similarities. Gambling is far, far more
| destructive than digital loot boxes in games. No need to
| conflate the two.
| rowanG077 wrote:
| How is it not gambling? You put in something you need to
| buy with money to receive an item you can trade for
| money. Sounds awfully similar to me like you go to a
| casino, get some chips to wager and then later trade the
| remaining chips back for money. Regardless of whether the
| "official" law states it's gambling or not from a moral
| perspective they are pretty much identical.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| > to receive an item you can later trade for money.
|
| A person could reasonably argue _can_ be exchanged vs
| primarily intended as a stand in for cash is important.
| _If_ the items are intended as actual items people value
| then that 's more defensible than say chips that only
| exist to be cashed out. (And I'm not familiar enough to
| know whether that's the case here)
| rowanG077 wrote:
| I would maybe agree with you if the marketplace were not
| operated by Valve. But it is. This makes very clear that
| the one of the intended use cases of the skins is to be
| sold. Which is understandable, it's very likely Valves
| makes in the order of a billion dollars just from the
| marketplace.
| haunter wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_gambling
|
| Valve could shutdown the whole thing with one button but
| they don't. Do you know why because it's profit for them
| too. Every case and every key sold.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| > Gambling is far, far more destructive than digital loot
| boxes in games.
|
| Nope. They are _exactly_ the same thing. Same effect on
| the brain.
| kube-system wrote:
| Also, they have a much more narrow target market with
| different interests and priorities.
|
| "PC gamer" correlates with "hardware tinkerer" much more
| strongly than "telephone user" does.
| brookst wrote:
| Publicly traded companies also don't have to increase
| profit margins. They generally do, but so do privately
| traded companies.
| Steltek wrote:
| It'll be a very dark day for us all when Valve turns evil.
|
| Steam Deck has been a modder's dream since it came out. Just
| having "desktop mode" be a standard option has been amazing.
| xbmcuser wrote:
| It's privately owned so does not have the shareholder
| pressure to keep increasing share holder value.
| wholesomepotato wrote:
| The do increase shareholder value, just in exactly short-
| term. The problem with publicly traded companies is not
| as much wanting to increase the value, but how short is
| the time horizon, when most owners don't have any
| understanding of the bussiness other than just handful of
| numbers every quarter.
| haunter wrote:
| >Valve turns evil
|
| Some people and legislators are arguing that unregulated
| digital gambling is very very evil
| hovering_nox wrote:
| If you mean gambling in Counter Strike, at least it's not
| explicitly aimed at children.
| andy_ppp wrote:
| Children don't play Counter Strike?
| askiiart wrote:
| Whether or not children play CS:GO/CS:2 is irrelevant. It
| is a game where 50% of the time you play as terrorists
| shooting law enforcement, it's very obviously not aimed
| at kids.
|
| The only way for kids to gamble in CS at all is to either
| steal a credit card, which is obviously not Valve's
| fault, or for them to have a Steam gift card. If anything
| is to be done about the children, I think Valve should
| just 1) require a users to have a credit card on file in
| order to buy lootboxes, and 2) require re-entering the
| full credit card details if the user makes several
| purchases in a short period of time, in order to stop
| kids who, for example, memorized the CVV of a card
| already on file in Steam.
|
| Keep in mind that uploading a government ID would have
| issues, seeing as in the US a driver's license is not
| universal, not to mention IDs all across the globe. Maybe
| there's an alternative form of ID that would work that I
| just can't think of, but anyways, I'm against needing to
| upload a government ID to access anything unless it's
| specifically for governmental purposes.
| brigadier132 wrote:
| Gambling is very different from csgo cases and pokemon
| cards. One of the insidious aspects of gambling is that
| people can delude themselves that they can actually get
| rich from it
| RockRobotRock wrote:
| I'm sorry to tell you this but csgo has a thriving
| secondary market where you can exchange items for real
| money.
| brigadier132 wrote:
| I'm aware and I'm not going to deal in absolutes because
| I'm sure there are a few people out there that do think
| they can make money from csgo skins but it's absolutely
| nothing compared to actual gambling.
|
| I'm a former gambling addict, it is very very difficult
| for me to lose the amount of money I have lost at craps
| or blackjack playing magic the gathering.
|
| I don't think we can classify all variable reward systems
| as gambling. Even competitive online chess with elo and
| matchmaking could be classified as gambling.
| riversflow wrote:
| I find all this handwringing about cosmetics gambling
| ridiculous when sports betting is becoming more and more
| accepted and legal.
| jacksontheel wrote:
| For me, if there's some good way to gate kids from
| participating then gambling with loot boxes should be
| perfectly accepted. Not that it's good game design, but
| adults can vote with their attention/money
| RockRobotRock wrote:
| >I don't think we can classify all variable reward
| systems as gambling.
|
| That's true. thank you for your perspective
| rowanG077 wrote:
| Look at the wikipedia page:
|
| > Gambling (also known as betting or gaming) is the
| wagering of something of value ("the stakes") on a random
| event with the intent of winning something else of value,
| where instances of strategy are discounted. Gambling thus
| requires three elements to be present: consideration (an
| amount wagered), risk (chance), and a prize.[1] The
| outcome of the wager is often immediate, such as a single
| roll of dice, a spin of a roulette wheel, or a horse
| crossing the finish line, but longer time frames are also
| common, allowing wagers on the outcome of a future sports
| contest or even an entire sports season.
|
| CS cases ticks all of the boxes. I'm really curious what
| your definition of gambling is.
| brigadier132 wrote:
| Most children who had pokemon cards bought for them
| likely don't consider the act of buying and opening
| pokemon card packs to be life altering or ruining events.
| I also doubt the average person considers buying packs of
| pokemon cards gambling. So while it fits the literal
| definition, it's considered different colloquially.
|
| This is very much unlike slot machines and blackjack
| which can and do take over people's lives.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| People who were raised from childhood with a particular
| form of gambling as a regular thing seeing it as
| different than "real gambling" generally isn't
| surprising, but it doesn't mean that there actually is a
| real meaningful difference beside personal
| acclimatization.
| haunter wrote:
| >One of the insidious aspects of gambling is that people
| can delude themselves that they can actually get rich
| from it
|
| Do you really think TCGs are not gambling? Guess people
| open MTG and Pokemon packs just for "fun" then.
|
| Why would holo cards, foils, and mythic rares exist?
| Black Lotus is just a piece of cardboard after all.
| discussDev wrote:
| I agree, I mean to the kids (And some adults with nothing
| else to do) the digital items and such are "Getting Rich"
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| Gambling is literally anything where you pay money to
| have a _chance_ to win something. That includes all these
| loot box things in literally any and all of its forms.
|
| As someone who was once addicted to these games, they
| should absolutely be illegal. We really should not allow
| corporations to print money with drug dealer methods.
| brigadier132 wrote:
| That definition is very reductive. Any competitive
| tournament with an entree fee is gambling?
|
| Also, the reason I'm against banning such games is
| because when you look at all the things we find fun, you
| will be sad to see that a _lot_ of them just boil down to
| variable reward. That variable reward aspect is what
| makes it fun.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| Competitive games are not based on chance. Betting on the
| outcome is.
| brigadier132 wrote:
| > Competitive games are not based on chance
|
| You would be wrong. Even chess has variance, the better
| player does not always win.
|
| Then there are games that actually integrate chance as a
| mechanic and are still competitive.
| nhinck2 wrote:
| Have you watched pokemon card opening videos?
| tanepiper wrote:
| _laughs in Eve Online_
| madeofpalk wrote:
| Valve has a history of being pretty anti-consumer,
| especially in regard to obeying warranty and returns.
|
| They were very early on in pushing "gambling for kids" with
| loot boxes and microtransactions.
|
| But yeah, exposed screws are cool I guess.
| RockRobotRock wrote:
| You're right. Steam also charges an atrociously high % of
| revenue, and yet people bitch endlessly when they have to
| use Epic Games Store or other marketplaces EVEN THOUGH we
| espouse so much about game developers being constantly
| fucked by big companies.
| bastardoperator wrote:
| Valve already did the evil part, they were just so early to
| the game (pun intended) no one knew how to react or what it
| meant. They somehow avoided mass criticism, or I wasn't
| paying good enough attention.
|
| I question a 30% developer fee for using Steam. Loot boxes
| in CS and TF2 to get and keep kids gambling. Destroying
| nearly every mod and skin community. I don't think I'm
| willing to sweep all that under the rug because they made
| it easier to open a steam deck.
|
| I like Valve believe it or not, but I question a lot of
| these decisions.
| theyinwhy wrote:
| Lot's of uproar back then. Many people did not switch to
| steam for as long as possible.
| AceJohnny2 wrote:
| > _They somehow avoided mass criticism, or I wasn 't
| paying good enough attention._
|
| Let me tell you about the Counter-Strike 1.6 Beta update
| in 2002...
|
| https://counterstrike.fandom.com/wiki/Steam
|
| (Geez, 21 years ago!)
|
| But yes, you are otherwise correct. That said, I argue
| that Valve has done an overall good job providing value
| to their users and even developers.
| davrosthedalek wrote:
| I am with you on the loot boxes, not sure I agree on the
| rest. City skylines as an enormous modding community, on
| steam, for example.
|
| I am OK with the 30%, because it's not a monopoly. You
| can use any other store, "sideload", whatever, without
| restrictions. I think, but I am not sure, that you could
| actually offer your game cheaper on other channels in
| parallel. But because people like the convenience of
| steam (which is probably one if not the best
| implementation of a software store) that many would pay
| the premium to have the game on steam.
| bisby wrote:
| While I won't argue loot boxes, and I dont know enough
| about mod/skin communities...
|
| The 30% developer fee makes a lot more sense if you
| consider that steam is much more than a game store. They
| host forums, guides, achievements, cloud saves, multiple
| versions of the game at once with beta channel access,
| screenshots, remote play, extras like Proton support, a
| friends list that will show you when other people are
| playing a game (advertising). And the store page has all
| sorts of stuff like ratings, reviews... a shopping cart
| and ability to purchase more than 1 game at a time
| (didn't know that was a feature, but apparently it is).
| And top of all that, it's just frankly where PC gamers
| are, so theres a ton of built in marketing.
|
| Not every game benefits from all these things. But it's
| hardly just a storefront. I would question Gamestop
| taking a 30% cut. I would question if EGS wanted the same
| 30% cut as valve gets. Gamers prefer Steam over EGS, and
| the reason they prefer it isn't just because "it's a
| nicer store front." It's a whole platform thing.
| asmor wrote:
| People Make Games did a great half-hour documentary on
| it. It's... pretty bad.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMmNy11Mn7g
| Spivak wrote:
| > I would question Gamestop taking a 30% cut
|
| Why? Physical distribution is way more expensive and they
| handle the entire consumer lifecycle.
| bisby wrote:
| Gamestop has a single interaction with the sales process.
| Once I've bought my game, unless I want to return it, I
| never have to think about gamestop again. So while the
| "get the game to the store" costs more, the act of
| swapping money in exchange for the game is basically 0
| work. Gamestop has logistics to deal with as their
| primary service.
|
| Valve has a perpetual obligation. I might buy the game
| and then never even download it. Or I might download the
| game. delete it. download the game again next week.
| delete it ... etc... And take 1000 screenshots that I
| want them to host, and upload mods for a game that they
| have to host and people may download. And this may happen
| forever (or at least until Valve ceases to be a company).
|
| Fable III isn't even available in the Steam store
| anymore... but they have a repo hosting the game files.
| And they still take updates (the package was last updated
| in july 2023, even though its been off the store for
| years). According to SteamDB there are 14 people playing
| it right now. Steam has been supporting a game that they
| haven't even sold in the past 8 years.
|
| I'm willing to bet that if I ask gamestop for anything
| regarding support for a game from 8 years ago they'd just
| laugh at me.
|
| tl;dr - physical distribution has cut and dry limited
| obligations, but steam has to deal with stuff forever.
| justinclift wrote:
| > host forums
|
| Some of their discussion forums are _incredibly_ toxic
| though, seeming to have no effective moderation.
|
| Baldurs Gate 3 and Starfield spring to mind as clear
| examples, though it wouldn't surprise me if there are
| even worse ones around.
| darkwater wrote:
| Some example? I don't use Steam, nor play videogames
| nowadays but I played a lot the original Baldur's Gate
| back in the day, so I'm somehow curious about this (even
| simple pointers are appreciated)
| justinclift wrote:
| Personally, I insta-bought Baldurs Gate 3 when it
| launched due to having played Baldurs Gate 1 & 2 + the
| video's of it showing the graphics looking ok.
|
| It was a mistake.
|
| The Steam discussion/forums for it are here:
| https://steamcommunity.com/app/1086940/discussions/
|
| I've not looked at them for ages as they were _very_
| toxic for a few weeks after launch, and I personally have
| no real desire to go looking again now. Maybe they 've
| magically improved somehow, but I doubt it.
| gotoeleven wrote:
| First thing on the forum: BG3 doesn't represent asexual
| people!
|
| https://steamcommunity.com/app/1086940/discussions/0/3944
| 650...
|
| Steam takes 30% to make everyone slightly dumber
| bisby wrote:
| That's fair. and there are plenty of stories of game devs
| that do moderate their forums being incredibly toxic
| themselves.
|
| But point being, Steam is a whole platform. When THPS
| 1+2's "Upload a custom skate park" broke, I just hit
| shift+tab and clicked discussions, and bam. theres
| discussions about it being broken for other people. and I
| didn't even have to launch the game, I could just go to
| discussions from the game on steam to see when it was
| fixed. I didn't have to go googling for everything.
|
| And the beauty of it, is that valve hasn't made all of it
| a walled garden. It's a nice garden, but they do a pretty
| good job of not keeping it completely locked down (which
| is the main reason why proton has been so successful).
|
| So no, Steam won't moderate your forums for you, but they
| will host the forums and you don't have to have your
| own/none. But then again, that might be more of a benefit
| to the customers than to the devs who may not care.
| tapoxi wrote:
| I mean the entire Unreal Engine 5 is a 5% cut, a 30% cut
| to host forums and screenshots is a little ridiculous.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| Promotion probably plays a bigger role in enabling profit
| than engine, though.
|
| Whether it _should_ may be a different issue.
| Alupis wrote:
| Discovery is a major reason why so many people use Steam.
|
| That, and Steam hasn't really burned many folks, ever.
| They even pioneered returns after you played the game...
|
| As a user, I've never once been mad at Steam.
| mrguyorama wrote:
| Other features steam develops for you with that 30% cut:
| Multiplayer friends list apis, cloud save apis and space,
| wide open VR apis (that get turned into Unreal Engine
| apis, game streaming, voice chat (though it's terrible by
| today's standards), workshop (modding and UGC) apis
| storage and management, Free keys to give out on other
| platforms which actually decreases that 30% cut depending
| on how much you use that functionality, built in
| "markets" for in game items, steam remote play apis and
| functionality, remote play together api (streaming
| gamepad stuff over networks without needing any crazy
| configuration or special programs), the new input system
| which is just incredible and can basically eliminate any
| work an individual game developer has to do to support
| powerful input tools and accessibility, free selling
| games on linux with very little dev work needed to
| support it and way less demanding bugs from linux users,
| built in customizable (but purposely bad) DRM if you only
| care for a minimal implementation, etc
|
| "Steam" is not just a game store. It's like if walmart
| built an entire industry around maintaining, supporting,
| and extending anything you sold through them. 30% is a
| lot, but Valve is the only company out of basically the
| entire retail industry actually providing value to
| sellers and buyers alike, rather than just a storefront.
|
| The CS:GO child gambling problem is HUGE though, and
| unconscionable. I don't know how Gabe feels about that,
| but I don't care. It should be exceptionally illegal to
| give a child access to a "gambling like" game that ever
| touches real money.
| tapoxi wrote:
| Friends list and matchmaking APIs are also provided by
| Epic Online Services, and work on consoles, multiple
| engines, and multiple stores, for free.
|
| That 30% cut still seems egregious. Those features are
| all nice but none of them can be used to make a game.
|
| Unity is even cheaper, at 2.5%.
| ozim wrote:
| Same as 7 million dollars for 30 sec air time for
| commercial during Super Bowl, ridiculous.
| zamalek wrote:
| > Loot boxes in CS and TF2
|
| It's apples and oranges.
|
| It's worth pointing out that this is for cosmetics. The
| largescale lootbox outcries have been exclusively about
| gameplay advantages. Games that only provide cosmetics
| are usually praised for being fair. For example,
| Overwatch also has lootboxes - but for cosmetics only -
| and nobody gives a damn.
|
| And then there's cards, which you earn for free, and can
| sell for a wallet balance in order to buy games.
|
| > keep kids gambling
|
| I don't believe this is their goal, even though they
| certainly aren't doing enough to prevent it.
| riversflow wrote:
| Overwatch *had lootboxes. Now it has a BattlePass you
| buy, new heros are locked behind buying the BattlePass or
| grinding the first ~40 levels to get it for free, and
| also premium cosemtics in a FOMO-style "today's deals"
| daily rotation store. No lootboxes. I miss OW lootboxes.
| I'm not a gambler but the surprise/novelty was fun, and
| once I had most cosemtics I wanted I could also just
| collect them which was satisfying. I had >500 and double
| digits of every seasonal loot box at the end of OW1.
| Lorin wrote:
| Blizzard had the worst luck. Their loot boxes were fair
| and most reasonable, but because they also looked so
| visually appealing, they were used in the thumbnail and
| header of every major article describing the horrors of
| loot boxes in general.
| techpression wrote:
| Not true, the outcries are about the gambling aspect, be
| it cosmetic or not. When you can buy cosmetics directly
| (or convert real money to game money) the general
| consensus is that it's fine, you know exactly what you
| get, with loot boxes you don't (and they are always
| filled primarily with junk nobody wants to stack the odds
| against you) Overwatch was more or less the worst
| possible implementation of cosmetic loot boxes and it's
| great that they're actually gone.
| georgeecollins wrote:
| When they established a 30% fee they were on the cutting
| edge of digital stores and doing something very risky. So
| to make what they made work was great for small
| developers.
|
| I would argue they still aren't evil (and Apple is,
| though I am a shareholder) because Steam, the Windows
| store and Epic can all live together on my PC as
| competing store / DRM. If a developer doesn't want to
| give up 30%, they have viable alternatives.
| panza wrote:
| As a developer, I don't mind paying the 30% for the
| hosting, payment handling, discoverability, community
| management etc.
|
| I can't say if it's truly worth the 30%, but I sure don't
| want to be handling all those services myself or through
| others.
| simoncion wrote:
| Yep. Valve takes that cut and serves up your game (and
| its patches) on demand FOREVER. No need to fight for
| shelf space, or bicker with store management on product
| positioning or any other shit. When a gamer wants your
| game, they get it, and if they're looking for something
| that might be like your game, they'll find yours, too.
|
| I also remember reading an article from way back when
| that said that brick and mortar revenue cuts were at
| _least_ twice what Steam was taking. Perhaps this memory
| is totally wrong... with today's Google I'll certainly
| never be able to find the source of the memory.
| ozim wrote:
| If you are not Blizzard or CDProject it most likely is
| worth every cent.
|
| As a casual gamer I am not willing to dig around the
| internet to look for games.
|
| But if I stumble upon something random on Steam there is
| a chance I will buy it.
| doublepg23 wrote:
| There's so many options for distributing PC games that
| the market clearly sees the 30% as fair. This is an
| ecosystem where you could sell a game on a website with a
| payment portal and nothing else...
| Shekelphile wrote:
| > I question a 30% developer fee for using Steam.
|
| 30% was more reasonable in 2005-2006 when steam was
| getting it's first third party games on the platform (and
| games were cheaper as well, a selling point for digital
| distribution at the time, which has no longer existed for
| many years due to greed) and when compute and bandwidth
| was massively more expensive than it is today. These days
| the cut should be closer to 5-10% at most.
|
| > Destroying nearly every mod and skin community.
|
| I miss those days so much. When I was a teenager there
| was always new maps and mods for hl1/hl2 to try out. Now
| modding in pretty much every game and it's community
| doesn't compare, most developers won't ever release
| tooling for their engines and will sue people who reverse
| engineer their games to make third party tooling. Even
| 'mod friendly' developers like paradox and bethesda don't
| like people making changes that affect core gameplay too
| much and will strip out functionality to prevent people
| from doing it because they would rather pump out
| shovelware DLCs to make money.
|
| Valve lucked out by doing all the enshittification in the
| late 2000s/early 2010s when their reputation was at it's
| highest. If they had cultivated this same following today
| and then rug pulled in the way they did in the past they
| would have killed their business entirely. Imagine if
| CDPR/A ctiblizzard/EA announced they would never make a
| game again and would only sell third party games through
| GOG/Battlenet/Origin, their distribution platform. Their
| business would be gone in a matter of months.
| adgjlsfhk1 wrote:
| do we actually know if AAA studios pay the 30%? it seems
| very plausible that they all have secret deals with steam
| for a smaller cut
| bhdlr wrote:
| Valve is a private company, so it would probably be after
| gaben leaves the company
| jjjjmoney wrote:
| I don't think Apple is the pinnacle of repairability by any
| means, but they have been making slow improvements in this
| area (like replaceable back glass in the new model phones,
| the entire mainboard doesn't need to be replaced for common
| repairs as often now, etc).
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| I don't know on which planet you live but every new
| generation is worse than the previous one.
|
| My last macbook needed to have a battery replaced during
| Apple Care (after only 2 years) and they just gave me a new
| body (no dents, same specs, same keyboard layout,
| transplanted the ssd - or transferred the data, not sure)
| and plugged it to the old screen.
|
| If they don't bother swapping a battery...
| wtallis wrote:
| Citing something that's been the same way for all Apple
| laptops for at least a decade doesn't really support your
| assertion that it gets worse with every generation.
|
| Your repair was probably done by moving your laptop's
| motherboard into a new lower case (with a corresponding
| new battery glued in).
| bluescrn wrote:
| Is there any real justification for glueing batteries in
| beyond obstructing replacement?
|
| It's not as if there's any space for them to slide
| around, they're a fairly tight fit in a compact device,
| and there's got to be plenty of other options to keep
| them in place if there is a little bit of looseness to
| deal with.
|
| (I guess they'll use safety as an excuse, to reduce the
| risk of the damage to cells. But it's not the real
| reason, is it?)
| giantrobot wrote:
| The case isn't so tight the batteries can't move. LiPoly
| batteries expand and contract when they heat and cool.
| The case needs enough space for that to happen without
| putting pressure on the battery.
|
| When the battery is at its most contracted state it can
| move if it's not fixed to the case by some means.
| Movement of the battery puts stress on the connectors and
| can lead to a short (or worse).
|
| Gluing the battery in the case is a safe way of fixing it
| in place inside the case. Screw tabs would give the
| opportunity during assembly of puncturing the battery
| casing with a tool or screw. They could also work
| themselves loose with the thermal expansion cycles.
|
| But people like the thought-terminating "Apple bad"
| narratives.
| bluescrn wrote:
| Surely there's a non-adhesive material that'd serve that
| purpose though, some sort of foam or rubber perhaps?
| wtallis wrote:
| I think adhesive and screws are the only two practical
| options for securing a battery well enough to prevent
| repeated cable flexing, which is probably much more of a
| concern than screws coming loose.
| tmpz22 wrote:
| Apple has a billion dollar PR engine trying to convince you
| that privacy was Apple's idea or repairability was their
| idea. It wasn't. Its them trying to get in front of
| regulation in the EU and outmaneuver their competitors.
|
| Do you think the iphone 15 being USB-C was Apple's idea
| too?
| cfr2023 wrote:
| I think Apple essentially sells disposable, glued shut, one
| time use electronics while grandstanding like crazy about
| the environment.
|
| Lisa Jackson has probably the hardest job at the whole
| company, to drum up the stats and relativism to make it
| look like they are trying at all in any meaningful way, and
| not just lying about their portfolio of dystopian horrors
| and banal inconveniences.
| riversflow wrote:
| My house is full Apple products, the average device is
| well over 5 years old. The gaming PC I built after the
| MBP I use is virtually worthless now, as the motherboard
| is fried and buying a new socket LGA 1150 motherboard
| just isn't worth it.
|
| All electronics are the result of dystopian horors, and
| they generally don't have a very good shelf life. Are you
| aware of how many SuperFund sites are in Silicon Valley?
| cfr2023 wrote:
| Pretty dull newsflash, this is the exact kind of weak,
| destructive relativism I was talking about in my post.
|
| Apple's the worst, except for all the rest? I should lay
| off Apple because they're doing better than their
| competitors?
|
| You're not opening any eyes by saying everyone is doing
| terribly, you're just responding to dissent with tired
| whataboutism and false claims of futility.
|
| The market and regulators and device builders and
| customers could do better and should.
|
| Apple wants to claim be leader in this space, they should
| do so with substance.
| riversflow wrote:
| My substance was that my Apple products consistently out
| live every other electronic manufacturer's. I have an
| iMac and a MBP that are both over a decade old now and
| run great. The hardware is excellent after putting a new
| battery in the MBP and an SSD in the iMac. Especially the
| 2013 MBP with Retina display, its still an awesome
| machine even at 10 years old. The biggest problems with
| old iPhones are banking Apps and cellular connectivity.
|
| Until we find a way of mineral extraction and
| purification that isn't terrible, electronics are going
| to be bad. Could Apple work to improve that? Yes, and
| they should too. My point, which I'd argue is pragmatic,
| is that Apple makes the longest lived devices you can
| currently buy, and not by a little but by a lot.
|
| Demonizing the current front runner in a competition you
| care about? ...well lets just say you attract more flies
| with honey than with vinegar
| cfr2023 wrote:
| There is no demonizing taking place - they make shit that
| objectively lasts longer (good), but they glue it shut
| when they don't need to (bad).
|
| The latter is such a poor environmental choice, that it
| negates the former, but you don't see it yet.
| riversflow wrote:
| > they glue it shut when they don't need to (bad).
|
| Disagree. Glue isn't really that hard to deal with and
| likely makes the phone substantially more waterproof.
| It's really not hard, at all, to deal with glue, it's
| typically dissolves in acetone and only requires mild
| heat to overcome.
| cfr2023 wrote:
| I'm using "glue" as a stand-in for all of the measures
| they use to lockdown their products when there is no
| physical need for it.
|
| Nonetheless, you're selling "typically dissolves in
| acetone" as a user friendly, easy to repair, best in the
| industry experience? Should we give them a special award
| with text that is flanked by sprigs of wheat?
|
| You don't realize how low you are setting the bar here.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| > there is no demonizing taking place
|
| Buddy, you just said, and I quote: "lying about their
| portfolio of dystopian horrors and banal inconveniences."
|
| _Get a grip._
| cfr2023 wrote:
| I have a strong grip on the meaning of these words and
| the organization I have observed as a customer and user
| for decades.
|
| How about you get a dictionary and encyclopedia and learn
| what dystopian horrors and banal inconveniences are?
|
| Then look at Apple's factories, mining operations, glued
| together, locked down, borderline unrepairable products,
| and a big old pile of lightning cables and see that is an
| apt, fair and even charitable description of their
| activities.
|
| Or you can just take yours and grip them to your chest
| and cry, whatever works for you.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| The iPhone:
|
| * always had the longest software support lifecycle in
| the industry. Only recently has Google tried to match
| them. My six year old iPhone only just stopped getting
| support for the current iOS release; it will still get
| security updates for a few more years.
|
| * can be repaired quickly from parts likely stocked in
| repair shops almost anywhere in the world thanks to the
| relatively small number of models, whereas a local repair
| shop is unlikely to have parts for an Android phone,
| unless you happen to have a phone that was sold in large
| numbers in that locale
|
| * can have its battery replaced with legitimate OEM
| parts, retaining waterproofing and whatnot, by Apple or
| third party shops who have been certified to do the
| repair correctly. No Android manufacturer does anything
| close to any of this.
|
| * was one of the first phones to throttle CPU speed when
| it detects rising internal resistance from battery aging,
| thus prolonging the device's lifespan (which everyone
| shit on them for, claiming it was designed to 'force'
| people to upgrade, when it was exactly the opposite - _it
| kept people 's phones working longer than they otherwise
| would_)
|
| * has a charge/data connector much more durable than
| standard USB connectors, and it's _still_ not placed on
| the motherboard like nearly every Android phone does; it
| 's on an easily replaced board. The whole EU USB-C
| debacle about consumer rights. It was about other
| companies eliminating Apple's competitive advantage with
| the Lightning port, denying consumers the right to choose
| a different connector other than the planned obsolescence
| USB connectors. And you know what else? Nobody's iPhone
| has ever been fried by a Lightning cable, but there was a
| huge debacle over USB-C cables that would fry anything
| they were plugged into.
|
| There's a reason iPhones retaining their value in the
| used market for years - and Android phones depreciate
| like a lead balloon.
|
| > lying about their portfolio of dystopian horrors and
| banal inconveniences.
|
| Ooooookay then.
| cfr2023 wrote:
| I understand that you want to feel good about your
| purchasing decisions, but you just are not seeing how low
| you are setting the bar.
|
| I use these products and am deeply invested in them. They
| are good, but much farther from perfect than you think.
| All of these stats are hollow relativism.
|
| If two companies were detonating atom bombs in your
| neighborhood, but one provided you and your family with
| super solid umbrellas to catch the ash, you'd probably be
| swollen with praise for them as well.
|
| There I go demonizing again... I really shouldn't be
| comparing a corporation with greater market value than
| the GDP of some countries to a nation state with the
| power to instigate generational environmental disasters.
| Totally different, not worthy of comparison at all.
| throitallaway wrote:
| Woz himself has spoken out against Apple's anti-repair
| stance.
|
| For a few gens now "simple" to swap out iPhone parts like
| screens need to be purchased directly from Apple and
| authorized to go into the device that's being repaired via
| IMEI. This kills off tons of third party market options.
| Imagine if vehicle manufacturers required that you buy all
| replacement parts from them. In the case of vehicles, there
| are tons of used, reconditioned, and third party parts
| available that work just fine as replacements.
|
| This kind of behavior is why I'll never "buy" an Apple
| device; you never truly own it and can do what you want to
| do with it, from both hardware and software perspectives.
|
| https://screenrant.com/apple-self-service-program-
| requires-s...
| darklycan51 wrote:
| It'd be nice if it was a real console and not a glorified
| Nintendo games piracy device.
|
| It's very easy to be user friendly when your business model
| is relying on piracy, they even showed an emulator in a now
| deleted trailer
| asddubs wrote:
| I'd rather have companies putting out emulator-friendly
| devices than re-charging for the same game every time a new
| hardware generation rolls around. The steam deck is just a
| computer at the end of the day, people are going to run
| emulators on it.
| Decabytes wrote:
| I think that's pretty reductive. They have a whole category
| of games that are great on Deck. I love playing Streets of
| Rage 4 and Katamari reroll on it.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| Emulators are not illegal, nor are compatible clones of
| consoles. It's actually weird that there aren't many
| alternative implementations of consoles in current times.
| There were plenty in the NES days.
| rictic wrote:
| Are there stats on what proportion of Deck use is piracy? I
| have a Deck, half my friends have Decks, none of them have
| mentioned piracy as a use case that I can recall.
|
| A 40 year old with a twenty year back catalog of Steam
| titles gives me plenty of things to play.
| rowanG077 wrote:
| You are aware that the vast majority of Steam games work on
| the Steam Deck? There are literally more games available on
| Steam that you can play on it then probably every console
| in existence.
| qweqwe14 wrote:
| By "real" console you mean a locked-down device that can
| only run software approved by the manufacturer and
| restricts running arbitrary user code?
|
| Why would anyone ever want _that_? If you buy a device, you
| are supposed to be able to do anything you want with it,
| including running emulators or whatever.
|
| Thankfully, even when vendors want to prevent people from
| doing that, they often screw it up and leave exploits that
| allow people to regain control. Even funnier when they then
| try suing random people for that to compensate for their
| engineering skill issue/make an example etc.
| yarg wrote:
| Valve's a software distribution company, not a hardware
| company.
|
| The steam deck exists primarily to expand their targetable
| market.
|
| It's of no benefit to them if people's devices fail - they
| just stop buying games (unlike Apple, where the devices are
| intended to slow down or stop working altogether).
| jonhohle wrote:
| > unlike Apple...
|
| I liked the direction you were going, but I don't think you
| made the right comparison. iPhones, for example, are used
| 30-60% longer (4-10 years) than a Samsung phone (3-6
| years). Apple provides software updates for all of their
| devices for 6+ years.
|
| I've had very few devices containing lithium ion batteries
| that didn't require a new battery. I have devices from the
| early 2000s from Sony, HP, Dell, Nikon, and countless
| others whose batteries have failed.
| opyate wrote:
| Check out Fairphone. Maybe not as feature packed as the
| latest Pixel or iPhone, but definitely a step in the right
| direction.
|
| Even Marques Brownlee [0] said he's going to rate gadgets'
| green/sustainability creds from now on, after reviewing the
| Fairphone.
|
| 0. https://www.youtube.com/user/marquesbrownlee
| Steltek wrote:
| Hmm, given the chassis changes, what are the odds the OLED
| screen can be dropped into existing Decks? It would probably
| hold back adoption but I'm unlikely to upgrade so soon anyway.
| dcdc123 wrote:
| Valve says it cannot be installed in LCD models. A third
| party may offer a solution though.
| oxygen_crisis wrote:
| There's already "DeckHD" after-market upgrade kits, a
| 1920x1200 OLED screen for $100.
|
| Looks like a pain to install, though. Saw a time-lapse of
| the process on LTT and it looked like it involved removing
| just about every single screw and fastener in the entire
| device.
| azdle wrote:
| The DeckHD is still an IPS LCD, it just has better color
| coverage: https://deckhd.com/#specs
| tedunangst wrote:
| It's amazing to watch how Torx screws have gone from crime
| against humanity to actually a good thing over the last decade.
| mtsr wrote:
| Are they still covered by the patents that made them
| unattractive initially? Patent expiry could very well be the
| reason for their increased popularity.
| mattygabe wrote:
| Torx patent expired in 2011, so that's increasingly likely
| why it's taken off.
|
| Edited to add: the "Torx Plus" design's patent expired in
| 2011, which was put in place in 1990 as the original Torx
| patent was expiring then. Some more nuance, but there ya
| go.
| mananaysiempre wrote:
| Wikipedia tells me the original Torx patent[1] was filed in
| the 1960s, so anything related should have long since
| expired. (There's apparently also a "Torx Plus" patented[2]
| in the early 1990s around the time the original patent was
| expiring, but I don't believe anybody deliberately chooses
| that one. Expired in 2011.)
|
| [1] US 3,584,667, https://image-ppubs.uspto.gov/dirsearch-
| public/print/downloa...
|
| [2] US 5,207,132, https://image-ppubs.uspto.gov/dirsearch-
| public/print/downloa...
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| My understanding is that the patents for Torx (and Torx
| Plus) have expired. They're an ISO standard, "hexalobular
| internal" (which is much more fun to say).
| postalrat wrote:
| Hex are a crime only because there are way too many sizes.
| spiderice wrote:
| More sizes than any other type of screw? I doubt it. In my
| experience they are more standardized into a few discreet
| sizes.
|
| edit: Also, you said Hex and I'm assuming you meant Torx
| (since GGP did). But that could very easily be a bad
| assumption, so I apologize if it is.
| postalrat wrote:
| Torx are great since there is a limited number of sizes.
| But hex has metric and sae plus plenty of variance bolt
| to bolt.
| throitallaway wrote:
| Also, Torx takes the guesswork out of determining which
| bit to use. If it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit. Phillips
| can be a pain in the ass to figure out which bit to use.
| Mogzol wrote:
| I think it may seem like Torx has more sizes than say
| Phillips or flat-headed screws due to the fact that with
| those you can generally get away with a screw driver that
| is "close enough" in size, whereas with Torx you really
| need the exact size the screw is using.
| asddubs wrote:
| If you want to strip your screws, you can do that. And
| then there's the Pozi vs Philips thing that people tend
| to get wrong. Torx is kind of a pain in the ass because
| you always try the wrong screwdriver first, but it's
| still way better than philips/pozidriv
| adgjlsfhk1 wrote:
| Philips used to be the "good" one because although it's a
| pretty bad design, everyone had it. Now that lots of people
| have torx drivers, they're better in pretty much every way.
| They're a lot harder to strip, they don't cam out as much
| etc.
| syntaxing wrote:
| Engineering wise, Torx was always superior, particularly
| small screws that would strip easily. People hated it because
| of the patents, and getting good tools were extremely
| expensive because of the licensing.
| doublerabbit wrote:
| And no jailbreaking required. I just wish I could hold one to
| see if my hands fit.
|
| My awkward hands where DS, Switch, PS and Xbox controllers all
| give me cramps after around ten minutes of play time.
|
| N64 not so. It's why I've always been a PC gamer.
| jenny91 wrote:
| Steam is in the world of selling you games; Steam Decks being
| cheap/reparable/etc leads to more game sales.
| 8note wrote:
| > Improved bumper switch mechanism drop reliability
|
| > Moved bumper switch to joystick board for easier repair
|
| These are such a big deal, and such a design flaw in the first
| deck.
|
| The most breakable part(eg. From any drop) requires valve to do
| the repairs because the same board houses the most complicated
| parts
| redder23 wrote:
| [delayed]
| gigel82 wrote:
| Damn, I wish they did an APU upgrade as well (I mean generation
| upgrade, not just node)...
| haunter wrote:
| Well I'm just happy there will be more second hand units on the
| market to buy
| menacingly wrote:
| at what voltage do devices like this tend to operate? I was
| trying to estimate the ah of the batteries so I could then be
| frustrated at how they pack the cells in there.
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| TSMC N6 is compatible with N7:
|
| https://www.tsmc.com/english/dedicatedFoundry/technology/pla...
|
| Which is how they could pull the APU shrink off without breaking
| the bank.
|
| And... Is the OLED not VRR? That was my #1 wish for the original
| Deck (with #2 being an OLED).
| cma wrote:
| VRR would help so much for when it can't quite hit framerate.
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| Yeah. Its basically free performance, and free power savings,
| and also makes the whole configuration process less fiddly.
|
| Those are all things you particularly want on the Deck.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Judging from the Digital Foundry video[0], it appears to have a
| limited form of VRR that will sample the refresh rate closest
| to whatever you're limiting for (eg. 40fps -> 80hz). It's not a
| complete solution, but it should effectively "solve" frame
| timing issues if your framerate is high enough.
|
| For what it's worth too, my experience gaming on Wayland has
| been great from a consistency perspective. Once you dial in
| settings that work, the only performance blips you can notice
| are related to shader compilation. 144hz _feels_ like 144hz,
| which has not always been the case on Linux.
|
| [0] https://youtu.be/Z1KLj06fn2s?t=257
| nottheengineer wrote:
| What are you running exactly? I haven't been able to get a
| 144hz + 60hz setup working with KDE on X. The main monitor
| just doesn't want to do 144hz, even if I disable the other
| one via xrandr. My 1070 Ti has me afraid of wayland because
| the nvidia driver already breaks something once a month.
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| Be afraid.
|
| I tried to get my 3090 working in Wayland/KDE/Arch for
| about a month (after repeatedly running into the same
| issues on my 2060 laptop) and gave up.
|
| AMD IGP output it is... and I just game on Windows instead.
| But even then, neutering the leftover bits of the Nvidia
| driver (which I need for CUDA) that keep breaking
| electron/chromium is making me pull my hair out. I still
| hold my breath opening VSCode, wondering if its going to
| freeze or not.
| glitchc wrote:
| That doesn't sound normal, even for Linux. It almost
| sounds like the issue is somewhere else. My first guess
| would be a PSU that's unable to source the 3090's current
| draw under load, given everything else running on your
| system.
|
| Try using a dedicated rail or another PSU if you have
| one.
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| Its definitely not. I have a V850 SFX Gold, a single 3090
| FTW3 and a 7800X3D, and its rock solid in OCCT's variable
| load test, even when overclocked (and its not overclocked
| on linux).
|
| I have literally all the exact same issues on my RTX 2060
| Asus G14 laptop, like:
|
| - GPU rendering broken in Wayland Chromium/Electron, and
| _sometimes_ Firefox
|
| - Occasional black screen on boot, from some kind of race
| condition.
|
| - Unpredictable artifacting on the KDE desktop and some
| apps.
|
| And I _still_ get some of that when Nvidia DRM is
| disabled and I 'm just using the 4900HS/7800X3D for
| display out. Completely disabling the Nvidia GPU fixes
| all of it, every single thing, but then I can't use CUDA.
| davrosthedalek wrote:
| Problems like these is one of the reason I run windows
| and WSL2...
| smoldesu wrote:
| I just bit the bullet and moved to Wayland. I've heard
| mixed things about people on 10-series hardware, but things
| work pretty well on my 3070Ti. My guess is that the drivers
| are slightly different across generations, and parity still
| hasn't been a priority. I decommissioned my 1050 back in my
| x11 days, I wish I could tell you how well it worked with
| my current setup.
|
| I'm also running everything on NixOS, so assume there's a
| fair bit of fairy dust blessing the config. Besides
| enabling modeset and cudatoolkit manually though, I don't
| think there's much special about my software setup.
| doikor wrote:
| > And... Is the OLED not VRR? That was my #1 wish for the
| original Deck (with #2 being an OLED)
|
| According to LTT it is due to the physical connection.
| Basically the panel is the same as Switch OLED and thus uses
| whatever it uses which is MIPI and thus no VRR (need eDP for
| that). The hardware clearly supports it (just plug an external
| display with VRR support into the deck and it works)
|
| https://youtu.be/uCVXqoVi6RE?t=179
|
| Basically Valve doesn't do large enough volume to make proper
| custom display economical so they have to take whatever they
| can get.
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| I was wondering where they sourced the OLED from.
|
| Makes sense. The highest volume OLED with the right size
| is... the Switch's!
|
| >Basically Valve doesn't do large enough volume to make
| proper custom display economical so they have to take
| whatever they can get.
|
| Yeah exactly. I see a lot of online complaints (mostly
| outside HN) about no new APU or no custom display, but the
| capital costs of doing either from scratch are just
| hilariously high.
| danbee wrote:
| The Switch is 1280x720 and the Steam Deck is 1280x800.
| They're not the same size.
| doikor wrote:
| As they have identical sub pixel layout they very likely
| come from the same factory.
|
| I think one side of the mother glass has a few extra pixels
| that you can just not cut off and end up with the 80 pixels
| more on one direction?
|
| If you start from a panel that cuts perfectly to 8K or 4K
| TV panels and you keep halving it won't go down evenly to
| 720p as it is not half of 1080p (1440p is half of 4K and
| 1080p is half of 1440p so they come out nicely without any
| wasted panel/pixels by cutting in half)
| hajile wrote:
| I want a Steamdeck with four Zen4c cores and 16 CUs.
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| More CUs the better. The wider it is, the slower it can run.
|
| But I don't think that's gonna happen until Zen 5, and only
| if we're lucky and AMD restarts the Van Gogh successors they
| canceled[1].
|
| 1: https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-ryzen-6000-notebook-
| roadmap-...
| criddell wrote:
| I want a small, inexpensive gaming computer to connect to my TV
| and have been thinking about the Steam Deck or a mini pc like the
| Minisforum HX99G (Ryzen 9 6900HX). Would the two computers be
| roughly comparable?
|
| I'm looking for something small because I don't have room for
| anything bigger. The Steam Deck is appealing because it doesn't
| seem very computer-y. What I want is a console that plays PC
| games. I've tried SteamLink between my desktop computer and
| AppleTV but it was a terrible experience.
|
| Is there something better than the Steam Deck that isn't
| expensive (ie not more than $2000).
| RajT88 wrote:
| There are a very wide variety of Windows based handhelds more
| powerful than the Steam Deck. AyaNeo seems to crank a new one
| out every 4 months!
|
| I came across a google doc a while back where people were
| obsessively cataloging them. There are _many_ which have come
| out in the last 2 years. You have your pick of options. They
| usually run from 400 - 1200.
|
| https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1irg60f9qsZOkhp0cwOU7...
|
| ETA: This list has gotten out of hand, lol
| dizhn wrote:
| ETA: ETA PRIME on YouTube reviews basically everything that
| comes out.
| criddell wrote:
| As someone who doesn't know much about this stuff and isn't
| looking for a project, that list is a bit nuts.
|
| I wish they would summarize with some recommendations. Maybe
| a $500 recommendation, $1000 recommendation, $1500
| recommendation, and the best overall.
| RajT88 wrote:
| lol. I don't think anyone has tested all of these to be
| able to make such a recommendation.
|
| If you want one which also docks and is a serviceable PC,
| filter that list for stuff which can run Windows/Linux and
| also comes with a Ryzen 5/7. Bigger number is better CPU
| (you'll notice above the 7k Ryzen series, it gets an A on
| Switch emulation).
|
| Take a look at the spread of prices and battery capacity
| and decide what candidates are important for you, and
| lastly check the reviews to see if any of them have
| quality/usability issues.
| phren0logy wrote:
| I have been really happy with my steam deck - I would strongly
| consider it if you don't mind that the hardware isn't cutting-
| edge. I rarely use it connected to a TV, so the relatively weak
| GPU might look worse than it does on the small screen, but
| otherwise it has been fantastic.
|
| It "just works," like a console. Which would be another good
| option.
| tapoxi wrote:
| Valve may be working on a console based on SteamOS, so I'd wait
| and see.
| _joel wrote:
| Didn't they already do that a while back? I'm sure this time
| around would be different given their traction now.
| tianreyma wrote:
| Kind of, they did the Steam Link which was local streaming
| only. They also had the Steam Machines which were made by
| third parties. From what I recall the Steam Machines were
| overpriced for what they were and SteamOS + proton weren't
| nearly as good as they are now.
| criddell wrote:
| I did a quick search for this and didn't find much. Is it a
| serious rumor? I'd probably preorder if I could...
| schmorptron wrote:
| I think that rumor was mostly based on an old screenshot from
| a documentary and the korean filings for a new WiFi6e device,
| which turned out to be this deck revision, so I'd put less
| weight on those now.
|
| Are there any other clues about them working on the console?
| graphe wrote:
| If you had a good experience with the steam link would you use
| it instead? Game streaming from desktop beats any small gaming
| computer.
| criddell wrote:
| Definitely would. I tried to use my PS5 controller linked to
| my Apple TV 4k and it was super laggy and looked bad.
| graphe wrote:
| Have you tried either Nvidia's or AMD's? I used moonlight
| on my phone for Nvidia it's free. You need fast wifi or
| Ethernet. I am planning on doing this for all my future
| purchases as a server to stream my media to all devices
| with as much performance as possible. I think this is a
| much better route than another dedicated device, unless you
| plan to use it outside a lot, and even then with good
| enough data and internet you can stream it from your
| computer.
|
| There's an Xbone mount/clip that I really liked for $3ish
| (it's like $20 official) and they might have done the same
| with the PS4 or 5 designed just to add a BT/USB-C
| controller to your phone.
| criddell wrote:
| No, I haven't tried the NVidia or AMD version.
|
| When I tried it (about a month ago) I was able to connect
| easily enough, but then the Steam interface went away for
| some reason and I was left staring at my (remote)
| desktop. I restarted Steam and started a game but the
| controller lag was noticeable and the framerate seemed
| low. It looked like a VNC connection. After about 30
| minutes I gave up and started to look at Steam Decks and
| other very small computers.
| Steltek wrote:
| SteamOS is a controller-first environment, which will give you
| that console feel. It's just so well done.
|
| I can't speak to performance but I've heard game streaming
| works really well on the Deck.
|
| I play a lot of "couch co-op" games with my kids while docked
| to a TV. Low requirements and very console-oriented. Compared
| to the Switch, here are some things that I bump into:
|
| 1. If you have 4 identical controllers, figuring out which is
| "1", "2", etc is hard. The Switch uses colors and LEDs to make
| this easy.
|
| 2. You need to walk over to wake it up. A controller can't wake
| it up if it's sleeping.
|
| 3. If you pair one of your identical controllers to something
| else, pairing it back is clunky since you don't know which one
| needs reconnecting.
|
| But on the positive side, my young kids aren't put off by the
| leaky abstraction over PC gaming. They actually kind of marvel
| at the wide range the little device has but admit the advanced
| wizardry (game mods, desktop mode) can only be wielded
| effectively by Dad.
| lawn wrote:
| > What I want is a console that plays PC games.
|
| Yeah, the Steam Deck is exactly that and I've been extremely
| happy with mine.
|
| Just be aware of some caveats:
|
| - It's not powerful enough for the most demanding games
|
| - Some games have evil anti-cheat or is otherwise not supported
| by proton yet (unless you install Windows, which you totally
| can)
| magixx wrote:
| Why not get a minipc with the AMD Ryzen 7 7840HS or Ryzen 9
| 7940HS CPU? Both of those have an integrated Radeon 780M GPU
| which should be better than steamdeck. Price wise they will be
| come out similar. The HX99G is more expensive than something
| like the UM780 (7840HS)
| lbwtaylor wrote:
| No, the minisforum will be much more powerful. I think that CPU
| will be roughly twice as powerful and the GPU included (6600M)
| similarly roughly twice as powerful.
|
| As the other commenter said, there are other handhelds, some
| getting better chips. But for your use case, you could also
| choose a small gaming pc or a laptop.
|
| If you would get use out of a gaming laptop separate from
| attaching to your TV then that's pretty attractive choice
| because it does everything the mini PC does without that much
| more space.
| diamondlovesyou wrote:
| I have been very happy with my Minisforum Venus UM790, though I
| use it as a mobile computer since I can just throw it into my
| backpack. It's been great to have access to AVX512 on the go.
| ThatPlayer wrote:
| The 6900HX has an RDNA2 GPU with 12xCU, compared to the Deck's
| RDNA2 with 8xCU. The Steam Deck is also limited by the power
| usage, the TDP is hard capped at 15W, while the 6900HX gets 45W
| TDP.
|
| My issue with using the Deck as the benchmark is that it is
| designed for 720p. Even connected to a 4K TV, the Steam Deck by
| default will force the game to run at 720p, and upscale it to
| 4K.
|
| If you're okay with a bit bigger, AM5 APUs are rumored to be
| coming out soon with BIOS updates that added support recently.
| I expect those to have RDNA3 like the laptop 7840HS and other
| chips. It'll be the first GPU update to desktop APUs since the
| 5600G. I'm excited and might build a new mITX to replace my own
| HTPC
| hajile wrote:
| HX77G is a LOT cheaper than the HX99G ($650 barebones instead
| of $740 for basically identical performance).
| sva_ wrote:
| Steam Deck has RDNA2 architecture which is pretty old now.
| They're probably getting rid off the last chips currently. I'd
| get at least Zen4/RDNA3 or, if you're in no hurry, even wait
| for what they release in the coming year. Especially if you
| want it to drive a high resolution screen...
| criddell wrote:
| In your opinion, are the mini pcs even worth considering? I
| kind of hesitate because I don't want another computer. I
| want a console experience that looks decent on a 55" tv
| (probably 1080p). The Steam Deck seems a little lo-res.
| kibwen wrote:
| I actually use my Deck almost exclusively in docked mode. If you
| just want a low-cost alternative to a PC for gaming, consider
| picking up one of the now-discounted LCD models.
| kube-system wrote:
| I thought I would use mine docked more than I do, but the
| hardware shows its weaknesses when you try to drive too many
| more pixels than the built-in display.
| freedomben wrote:
| Agree, though mainly just for newer AAA games. For example,
| Hogwart's Legacy (which has breathtakingly good graphics on
| capable machines) on a docked Steam Deck is much worse than
| my top-of-the-line Linux AMD rig. I wouldn't expect a $500
| handheld to match a $3,000 desktop of course, but I thought
| it worth mentioning.
|
| If you play games like Shredder's Revenge or Stardew Valley,
| the graphics will be identical. But if you play AAA games and
| you care about graphics, you might want something more
| powerful.
|
| That said, the Steam Deck works perfectly as a remote
| console. I.e. docked to my TV, and then "stream" the game
| from the gaming rig. Nvidia Shield is also a great device for
| that and a big cheaper if you never plan to undock it, but
| being able to play less demanding games locally is a big
| feature that makes the Deck worth it IMHO.
| masto wrote:
| I found my TV (not purchased with gaming in mind) adds so
| much latency that even as a non-gamer I found it unusable.
|
| A minor gripe; overall the Steam Deck blew me away with its
| capabilities, ease of use, and attention to detail.
| jay_kyburz wrote:
| I love everything about the Steam Deck except 1 thing.
|
| I love that its Linux based, and that you can doc it and turn it
| into a real PC. The interface is polished and its fast. And it's
| Steam, so I have all my games!
|
| The one thing - I can't play it for more than an hour without
| getting hand cramps. The ergonomics just aren't very good for me.
|
| I play games all day for my job, and I know I can play an xbox
| controller or a ps5 controller for 8 hours straight without
| problems.
|
| Lucky, because its a Steam Deck, I can plug any controller I want
| into it.
| leetharris wrote:
| There are some aftermarket attachments that supposedly help
| with this. I haven't tried any of them myself, but I get the
| same problem as you and I will probably try some out next week.
| ThatPlayer wrote:
| Despite the bigger overall size, the buttons on the Steam Deck
| aren't bigger than the buttons on a Nintendo Switch joy-con.
| That's why I like the Asus Ally more for having buttons that
| aren't too small for my big hands.
|
| Trade-off is no space for the touchpads
| CobrastanJorji wrote:
| > * Exclusive startup movie
|
| Guys, c'mon, I know that you have to have a longer bullet point
| list for the premium, more expensive option, but you're making
| your actual advantages sound stupid by including this one.
| baerrie wrote:
| Hey, the filmmakers need there work listed as well!
| LegitShady wrote:
| Pretty sure you can mod in any startup movie of your choice
| these days. The startup movies just seem to be a way to get me
| to waste steam points I don't have any use for on some variety
| of startup visual without any effort. You're not wrong.
| syarb wrote:
| A bit disappointing that you cannot purchase just the new OLED
| screen and replace it in the LCD model, considering the
| dimensions are the same.
|
| I wonder what the true limiting factor for this is? I'd love to
| upgrade, but ~$500 feels like a little too much for the usage I
| currently get out of my Deck.
| kimbernator wrote:
| Selling the unit as a whole almost certainly is a loss for
| them, but they make money by having people buying games from
| them. Selling parts like that would be unlikely to have a
| similar effect, so they might not be able to sell it at a price
| point that makes sense.
| glimshe wrote:
| $549 is probably a break even price. It's a great value
| nonetheless, but kind of too high to be at a loss.
| rlex wrote:
| deckhd [1] creators (third-party 1200p screen for deck) said
| it's not possible, as it will require modifying main board
| (something about voltage regulation, if i recall correctly)
|
| [1] https://deckhd.com/
| thrdbndndn wrote:
| The dimension of the screens are not the same, though.
| wvenable wrote:
| The screen is thinner and the battery is larger -- it's also,
| as others have said, a larger screen. The bezels are smaller.
| freedomben wrote:
| I don't think the dimensions _are_ the same. Resolution is, but
| LCD screen size says 7 ", OLED says 7.4"
| kimixa wrote:
| Also with the MMC option gone (so the PCB area can be
| reclaimed), thicker fans and cooling solution, different
| internal size battery and screen, I wonder if the entire
| mainboard has been redesigned.
| ThatMedicIsASpy wrote:
| eMMC just slots into the m2 slot. There is no area to be
| reclaimed
| opan wrote:
| With a lot of changes that probably can't be retrofit into a
| launch Deck, I see this as trying to attract new customers
| instead of old ones. Probably worth waiting on the next release
| with an actual spec bump in a few more years.
| jwells89 wrote:
| Does anybody here have experience using a Deck booted into
| Windows with VR headset connected for playing Beat Saber? How
| well does it work for this purpose? Not finding too much info on
| that particular setup online.
|
| This revision appears to fix my main gripes with the original
| model so I'd like to buy one, but if I could use it as an
| ultraportable Beat Saber machine it'd make the purchase more
| justifiable. While my Quest 2 can technically run Beat Saber
| natively, the Steam version is _vastly_ more mod-friendly and PCs
| generally don't choke as badly on complex custom maps as the
| middling smartphone hardware in the Quest 2 does.
| ShamelessC wrote:
| My understanding is that Windows is very buggy to boot into.
| j3s wrote:
| i don't understand why you want a portable beat saber setup
| that requires hauling around an entire VR setup + a steam deck
| + all of the peripherals that requires? imo you might as well
| buy a little laptop with a proper video card if you're going
| that route. the deck's video capabilities aren't intended to
| drive VR or run windows, you'll almost certainly have issues of
| a million varieties.
| jwells89 wrote:
| Mainly, it's about maximizing usage of my devices.
|
| At home most gaming (including Beat Saber) is done on a nice
| custom tower that outguns any reasonably priced gaming
| laptop, meaning that if I bought a gaming laptop it'd only
| get used when traveling and would collect dust the rest of
| the time. Unless of course I sell the desktop and go laptop-
| exclusive for games, but that comes with some notable
| tradeoffs (fan noise and longevity primarily).
|
| The Deck's form factor makes it attractive for at-home use
| scenarios that a desktop and laptop don't fit as well, and a
| such has a better chance of getting consistent usage compared
| to a laptop.
| andybak wrote:
| Could you not just run Best Saber on a Quest?
| jwells89 wrote:
| It's possible, but as noted in my other comment, the
| Quest version is notoriously unfriendly to modding and
| can chug with more complex custom maps due to weak
| hardware, which is problematic because I play
| modded/custom exclusively.
| Funnyduck99 wrote:
| Steam deck runs beat saber very poorly
| charcircuit wrote:
| >While my Quest 2 can technically run Beat Saber natively, the
| Steam version is vastly more mod-friendly and PCs generally
| don't choke as badly on complex custom maps as the middling
| smartphone hardware in the Quest 2 does.
|
| The Steam version is not more mod friendly.
|
| >PCs generally don't choke as badly on complex custom maps as
| the middling smartphone hardware in the Quest 2 does.
|
| The Steamdeck targets 720p 30 fps gaming. The Quest 2 useded
| the latest generation mobile processors when it released.
| Similarly the Quest 3 is using the top of the line mobile
| processors.
| jwells89 wrote:
| > The Steam version is not more mod friendly.
|
| One doesn't need to mess around with sideloading and PC mods
| get updates more frequently, which in my book would qualify
| as more mod friendly.
|
| It sounds like the Deck can't handle Beat Saber better than
| the Quest 2 though so I guess it's moot.
| saidinesh5 wrote:
| Valve: Install whatever you want from wherever you want -
| hardware, software, operating system.
|
| And they provide you parts and schematics in case you need to
| repair/mod your device. Never thought I'd see a day when linux
| gaming would be as good as what I get via my steam deck these
| days.
|
| Kudos to Valve for embracing such an open approach to
| gaming/portable devices in general.
| sho_hn wrote:
| Given that PC gaming thrives on modding, it's only right that
| the most PC-like console gets it right.
| erikpukinskis wrote:
| If that were the natural outcome Xbox would've "gotten it
| right" since it was the most PC-like console before the Steam
| Deck.
|
| The moddability is a deliberate strategy by Valve, and I
| don't see it as an inevitable move for every PC-centered
| company, Microsoft being the prime counterexample.
| timw4mail wrote:
| The XBox One and PS4 are very PC-like as well. (Continuing
| with the PS5 and XBox Series).
|
| But yes, Valve does seem to get what gamers want (other
| than games made by them)
| amlib wrote:
| I think it's pretty clear that "PC-like" also means you
| need an open platform, with the possibility to install any
| software and operating system you wish, which the xbox nor
| any console from the major brands allows for.
| amstan wrote:
| Sorry, where are these schematics? I was not aware.
| vanchor3 wrote:
| > And they provide you parts and schematics in case you need to
| repair/mod your device.
|
| Where are the schematics? I was trying to do a repair on an
| unusually common failure and couldn't find anything.
| saidinesh5 wrote:
| I am not sure if schematics is the right word, but I meant
| things like: https://gitlab.steamos.cloud/SteamDeck/hardware
| and whatever they provide to likes of
| https://www.amazon.com/Joystick-Steam-Deck-Hall-Effect-
| Senso... to and steamdeck HD, to make hall effect joysticks
| and high resolution display mods for steamdeck.
| vanchor3 wrote:
| Understandable, I was hoping there was some sort of board
| schematics or even block diagrams to aid in fixing blown up
| chips and other faults. I most often see failures on the
| main board and of course that's the part they don't sell
| you.
| doikor wrote:
| While no board schematic there is quite good selection of
| guides hosted iFixit (Valve links you there from their
| website so it is the "official" source)
|
| https://www.ifixit.com/Device/Steam_Game_Console
| saidinesh5 wrote:
| Out of curiosity, what chips do you see get blown out
| typically?
|
| And are there any specific usage patterns that lead to
| more of these issues?
| vanchor3 wrote:
| It most often seems to be the power
| management/charge/USB-C chip, with no particular pattern
| other than "playing a demanding game". Doesn't seem to
| matter whether plugged in or on battery, official charger
| or other USB-C charger or dock. I even had it happen to
| my own Steam Deck (while playing Minecraft of all things)
| which I sent into Valve and they replaced.
|
| I haven't been able to investigate it too much but last I
| looked at the data sheet for that chip it seems like
| there's no way it should have a hole blown in it unless
| something was designed wrong.
| golergka wrote:
| The already have most of online PC games sales through their
| platform and take a very healthy chunky cut off it, they don't
| have any financial incentive to close their platform. I also
| doubt they sell Steam deck at a loss like console companies do.
| opan wrote:
| >I also doubt they sell Steam deck at a loss like console
| companies do.
|
| They (GabeN I believe) mentioned early on that it was
| "painful" to hit the Deck's price point. Unsure if this means
| sold at a loss or just a smaller-than-ideal profit.
| __turbobrew__ wrote:
| Valve isn't taking some moral high ground here, they are just
| trying to commoditize hardware and OS platforms. It isn't a new
| idea: https://gwern.net/complement
| saidinesh5 wrote:
| That's an interesting take. Reminds me of when Android came
| out as free and open alternative to whatever we had back
| then.
|
| I hope Steam OS doesn't end up the same locked down mess that
| Android has become these days ...
| ren_engineer wrote:
| Steam fees are their money maker, hardware is just a way to get
| more people buying stuff on Steam
| Hamuko wrote:
| And it's absolutely working! So far I've spent 566EUR
| directly on Steam this year and my willingness to spend money
| on GOG or EGS has dropped dramatically considering what a
| seamless experience I get with Steam and the Steam Deck.
| aquova wrote:
| Me as well. I've on Linux for years, but there was a time
| where I was preferring GoG for their DRM-free policy.
| However, Valve went all in on Linux support while GoG
| refused to even make a Linux version of their launcher. I
| still occasionally buy things from them, but Steam gained
| my business.
| saidinesh5 wrote:
| Yeah, the cdprojekt/Linux story is a weird one. They even
| released witcher 2 on Linux. But after all the hate they
| got , for it being a bad port, using some translation
| layer, it seems like they dropped the Linux use cases.
|
| At least they don't go out of their way to block heroic
| games launcher/Linux and I'm happy with that.
| andrewmunsell wrote:
| And it absolutely worked on me.
|
| Prior to having a Steam Deck, my overall video game time was
| fairly low since it took time to boot the PC and start
| everything up. With the SD, it's much easier to grab it and
| get a small session in, and I've purchased a number of games
| (and will even buy games on Steam at a higher price than
| elsewhere) because of the Deck. It's the price of
| convenience, but well worth it in my opinion.
| saidinesh5 wrote:
| It's not just about trying to get more people to buy stuff on
| Steam but also safeguard their own future, while carving out
| their own experience and a niche.
|
| Back when the whole Steam on Linux started, they saw Windows
| 8/10 as a real threat to their existence. (Windows S?)
|
| It's just that the way they went about to solve this in an
| open way is what's nice.
|
| They improved the graphics drivers situation, invested in
| Wine and other open source projects, put in a lot of effort
| to create a user experience they wanted on a handheld device.
|
| Ultimately this gave them a real edge over their competitors.
| Was surprised to see random youtubers making videos on how to
| install steam OS on their more powerful Rog Ally/Gpd/Home
| theater PC etc ..
| ehsankia wrote:
| Sure, but it doesn't change the fact that no public traded
| company would ever do this, or spend this much resources in
| things such as repairability or Linux layer improvements.
| It's nice that Valve is still a private company and can
| decide to focus on things that actually good for the space
| and consumers, even if it's not the most optimal use of their
| time.
| saidinesh5 wrote:
| > Sure, but it doesn't change the fact that no public
| traded company would ever do this, or spend this much
| resources in things such as repairability or Linux layer
| improvements.
|
| Google used to be like this once upon a time, long long
| ago... (That blocks phone, unlocked bootloader on all their
| Nexus devices, Linux improvements for Chrome/Android
| etc...). Not sure if things really changed or it's just in
| my head, but they no longer seem that way.
| schmorptron wrote:
| The upgrade to 90 Hertz is really good for a non-obvious reason:
| In the Steam Deck userbase, the "Golden 40", playing games at
| 40fps and the screen at 40 hertz, is a pretty well-liked trick
| for getting the frame time right in between 30 and 60fps at 25ms
| while "only" needing power to render 10 more frames per second
| than 30, making for a much better experience than 30.
|
| The only problem with this is if a frame is slightly late at 40
| hertz, you're waiting the full 25 ms for the next one instead of
| 16.6ms at 60hz. Being able to run the screen at 80 hz for 40fps
| games cuts that stutter time on a missed frame in half to 12.5ms,
| and will make a huge difference!
| brokencode wrote:
| So does the Steam Deck not support VRR for the onboard display?
| I see articles saying support was added for external displays,
| but it's not clear whether the onboard one has it. If it does,
| then it seems like it shouldn't be a problem for a frame to be
| slightly late.
|
| Edit: I read some other comments that explain the situation. It
| sounds like there is no VRR for the internal display
| unfortunately.
| schmorptron wrote:
| No, it sadly doesn't do VRR and neither does this new one.
| According to the LTT video[0], it's because of the internal
| connector that the internal display is attatched with,
| because external VRR screens do work. They speculate that
| valve were just limited by what is available on the market
| because they are not quite shipping enough units yet to
| warrant fully custom designs / orders. Apparently there are
| hints towards this being the same supplier that also supplies
| the Switch OLED's screen.
|
| [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCVXqoVi6RE
| Vt71fcAqt7 wrote:
| Bloomberg says the supplier is Samsung.[0] Not entirely
| surprising because Sony is somewhat of a competitor and
| that only leaves LG who is not nearly as good at mobile
| oled which is one of Samsung's largest markets. This said I
| know eg. Apple uses multiple display suppliers for the
| iphone 14/15 base model so it could be the same here.
|
| [0]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-04/ninte
| ndo-...
| Decabytes wrote:
| The display uses a mipi interface instead of a edp. This is
| because the screen isn't completely custom and likely used
| one from a manufacturer similar to the switch oled which also
| uses a mipi display.
|
| If valve sold more units it might justify a completely custom
| solution but this is still way better than what people had to
| do to get a better screen before.
| nick_ wrote:
| People consider 40fps the sweet spot?
| postalrat wrote:
| Maybe for battery.
| schmorptron wrote:
| Yeah, for games that don't quite run at 60fps. You set the
| screen to 40 hertz, the difference between 30 and 40 is HUGE
| latency and general smoothness wise.
| gloryjulio wrote:
| It's a bit better than 30 while saves battery compare to 60
| opan wrote:
| There's a weird cult-like attitude around 40fps that I've
| noticed. Personally I run everything at the normal 60hz and
| almost everything I play runs fine, even at the higher
| resolution (1920x1200) of my external monitor. Counter-Strike
| 2 runs horribly and Baldur's Gate 3 was sub-60, but mostly I
| don't play anything that demanding (mostly indie, lots of
| 2D). It might matter more if you play all the new AAA titles
| that come out.
| user_7832 wrote:
| > There's a weird cult-like attitude around 40fps that I've
| noticed.
|
| As someone who learnt about this public 40fps love just a
| few minutes, I'd like to add that this was something I had
| noticed myself years ago. 40fps feels "smooth" and closer
| to 60fps, than 25/30fps for some reason. Unfortunately my
| graphics card struggled but that's a different story.
| nick_ wrote:
| I think I'm missing something with graphics cards. I have
| a 1060 on a i7-3770 and it can put out 120fps on most
| games. My M1 Macbook can play those same games through
| Rosetta 2 and Wine + GPTK at a similar FPS.
|
| What are people doing that they have like a 3080 on a
| 12700 and can barely hit 60fps??
| nick_ wrote:
| I guess I play faster games than most because I always put
| the graphics settings to lowest detail, native resolution,
| and aim for 144fps (my monitor's native refresh rate).
| Anything less than 90fps/Hz is pretty bad to me.
| izacus wrote:
| On the Deck, yes.
| alpaca128 wrote:
| I limit Elden Ring to 35FPS to avoid stuttering and it
| basically feels as smooth as 60FPS on the XBox Series S. As
| long as you get at least ~30FPS the framerate doesn't matter
| as much as framerate stability.
| ThatPlayer wrote:
| It doesn't sound like a big difference but 40fps is actually
| about halfway between 30fps and 60fps in response times.
| Because 30fps is 1 frame every 33ms, 60fps is 16ms. 40 fps
| gives you 25ms.
| jacurtis wrote:
| It is only needing to produce 33% more frames for 40fps vs
| 30fps. Compare that to producing 60fps which is 100% more
| frames. So you are only sacrificing a small amount of
| performance to get 40fps but a significant amount to reach
| 60fps.
|
| In practicality, most people can't tell the difference
| between 40fps and 60fps, or at least won't notice it in
| normal gameplay.
|
| So you get nearly the same experience as 60fps but for much
| less processing power and therefore also better battery life,
| less fan noise/cooling, and you can crank graphics a little
| higher.
|
| Most people are more likely to notice the difference between
| "Medium" and "High" very easily or "High" and "Very High",
| but won't notice the impact of 40fps vs 60fps. So that's why
| 40fps is generally a sweet spot between performance and
| experience.
| Tadpole9181 wrote:
| > In practicality, most people can't tell the difference
| between 40fps and 60fps, or at least won't notice it in
| normal gameplay.
|
| Oh, good, we're back to justifying technical limitations
| with fabricated myths from early 2000s console marketing
| teams.
| atemerev wrote:
| "This item is not available in your country"
|
| The country in question is Switzerland, probably the richest
| country in Europe, where many people would have bought it on
| spot.
|
| Regional restrictions are so stupid.
| kube-system wrote:
| If it makes you feel better, it's not available in any country
| yet.
|
| But regional restrictions aren't really "stupid" they are
| because doing business globally is hard to do.
| atemerev wrote:
| The regular Steam Deck is also not available. And no other
| Valve hardware.
| eloisant wrote:
| Maybe join the EU, that would make it easier for them because
| the regulations would be the same!
| 999900000999 wrote:
| Lost me when I realized the resolution is the same.
|
| 1080p is a minimum in 2023
| NovemberWhiskey wrote:
| Based on what assumptions? The Deck struggles enough to get
| decent FPS on many titles without careful tweaking - how do you
| think it's going to do if it has to push _twice_ the number of
| pixels.
| csdreamer7 wrote:
| Not for a small screen like the steam deck. LTT complained
| 1080p made things way too small on Asus ROG Ally handheld while
| also hurting performance.
| nottorp wrote:
| If you want bigger numbers i believe there are windows
| handhelds available now.
|
| The rest of us who want something that just works might get a
| steam deck.
|
| Interesting... how come Linux just works and Windows is iffy in
| the handheld gaming space?
| troupe wrote:
| Yes. That is why no one has purchased a Switch since the
| beginning of the year.
| metadat wrote:
| I just bought a switch last week. T he switch and steam deck
| are fundamentally very different, despite ultimately both
| being for playing games.
|
| The switch is great for party, co-op, and social games, while
| the steam deck is a decent approximation of a desktop PC..
| sans keyboard and mouse.
| maxglute wrote:
| Looks fantastic. I wish Valve would take another go at steam
| controller and steam link.
| dpc_01234 wrote:
| I have a Steam Deck, Steam Link and the Steam Controller (it
| does work) among other controllers. The ability to use any
| controller is awesome (Wireless DualSense is my fav RN). Steam
| Controller itself wasn't all that great, and I like the . And
| Steam Controller with a Dock acts as Link (unless I'm missing
| some other functionality).
| joshstrange wrote:
| I'm super tempted by it but I just bought my Steam Deck this
| year. I love it and have played almost daily (all handhold) and
| I've got a vast backlog of games to play (that will play well on
| the deck).
|
| Resolution not changing is both a pro and a con but more-so a pro
| I think. OLED would be really nice as would the battery life but
| I don't need it.... OTOH that special edition looks really
| cool...
| cowboyscott wrote:
| I'm a first gen deck owner and am constantly impressed by the
| quality of the product. The hardware is good, more than good
| enough, but the fact that it is running windows games mostly
| seemlessly is incredible. Yes, I know wine has been around
| forever, but with the deck you barely even notice that you're
| running through a compatibility layer. Performance and battery
| life in all but the last few years of AAA games is also great.
| The improvements here are marginal, but it's great to see them
| making smart, incremental updates.
|
| I'd love to see how the market would react to a deck in a console
| form factor, with similar input options to the deck (pad plus
| touchpads) and an APU comparable to modern consoles.
| all2 wrote:
| There was Steambox, which was their bid to get into the console
| PC gaming tower market. We got SteamOS out of that, but the
| product launch itself didn't go so great.
| jwells89 wrote:
| To my recollection the problems with the Steam Box were
| reliance on third party hardware manufacturers, weak
| hardware, and trouble with game compatibility.
|
| If they were to do a reboot of that product line today I
| think it'd go quite differently. They have the chops to
| manufacture the hardware themselves this time around, and the
| game compatibility factor has improved dramatically
| (partially of their own doing). I think there could be a real
| market for a console with an APU somewhere in the ballpark of
| the PS5's, but running SteamOS and embracing upgrades and
| modding like the Deck has, especially if they can price it
| aggressively.
| opan wrote:
| The Steam Controller was killed off, and IIRC there was a
| patent infringement issue with the paddles on the back. I'd
| love to see a redesigned Steam Controller based on the Deck's
| controls. I play my Deck almost exclusively docked, but your
| average controller packs less functionality than the Deck's
| built-in controls, so it would be neat to not have to
| compromise.
| avtar wrote:
| > I'd love to see how the market would react to a deck in a
| console form factor,
|
| They already tried this with Steam Machines and that didn't end
| well.
|
| > with similar input options to the deck (pad plus touchpads)
| and an APU comparable to modern consoles.
|
| There's the Steam Controller, but maybe they'll try something
| new with analog sticks.
| eduflm wrote:
| > They already tried this with Steam Machines and that didn't
| end well.
|
| They tried this in 2014 when Steam OS was immature and Proton
| didn't even exist (Steam Machines were relying on Linux Ports
| at time). Also, if I record well, we didn't had a Steam
| Machine 100% done by valve, only third-parties.
|
| I bet that the market reaction would be very different today
| with first-party steam machines running Proton,
| msh wrote:
| Damn I just purchased a 256 GB steam deck a month ago :(
| _flux wrote:
| You should consider asking the support for partial refund.
|
| Though a month might be stretching it.
| diwcoder wrote:
| I was about to cancel my order for a Playstation Portal after
| seeing this. Considering a bit further though, I really think
| remote play is the future as long as you aren't concerned with
| using the device on the go. My PS5 can handle games way better
| than a Steam Deck, the device is lighter, and the battery lasts
| significantly longer. Still a bit torn though, the Steam Deck
| appeals to the side of me that loves gadgets. It's a tough call.
| gordon_freeman wrote:
| why don't have both? SD for indie games such as
| Factorio/Stardew Valley etc. and PSPo for AAA Sony exclusive
| games!
| smith7018 wrote:
| The Portal can only stream games over your local network,
| though, right? I think the SD would be a better use of money
| because it offers the ability to play outside for the home but
| it's definitely personal preference.
| diwcoder wrote:
| I believe you can stream to the Portal from anywhere with a
| solid WIFI connection. Does not necessarily need to be the
| same local network.
| sylens wrote:
| While the different capabilities definitely account for this,
| there is a big price gap with the Portal only being $200
| theshrike79 wrote:
| You can use Chiaki[0] to stream PS5 games to your Deck, best of
| both worlds =)
|
| [0] https://sr.ht/~thestr4ng3r/chiaki/
| ThatPlayer wrote:
| The Portal still has advantages of having all the fancy
| Dualsense controller features like adaptive triggers and
| better rumble.
|
| Also 1080p screen compared to the Deck's 720p. OLED is
| definitely gonna be nicer though.
| superconduct123 wrote:
| Have you tried playstation remote play?
|
| I found it still feels too laggy to be acceptable even at home
| with the console on ethernet
|
| Like trying to play a multiplayer FPS is so much harder with
| the latency
| gordon_freeman wrote:
| Wow! This seems like a really good upgrade just for that screen
| and longer battery life. Time to finally buy the SD to play that
| ever-increasing backlog of games in my Steam catalog.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| I think this might be an early step into the concept of people
| building portable devices like they build custom PCs and I love
| it.
| pawelduda wrote:
| US and Canada only.. guess it's more wait time for me.
|
| > Why isn't the Limited Edition Steam Deck OLED available in my
| region? > Steam Deck Limited Edition is an experiment for our
| team, and we were only able to make a small quantity. That said,
| we hope this is a successful experiment and customers are excited
| - if we see there is a large demand for this kind of product, we
| will definitely continue to explore more colorways in the future.
|
| Please continue Valve
| all2 wrote:
| I can ship one out to you if you'd like.
| pawelduda wrote:
| Thank you. I will be reaching out if I decide to go for one.
| BUT I think the limitation actually applies only to the 1TB
| limited edition (with different colorway). So the 512GB OLED
| should be normally available as I've seen some people point
| out!
| mananaysiempre wrote:
| As far as I can tell, there's a "normal" OLED Deck, which is
| (or will shortly be) available in the full complement of
| countries (not including my current place of residence...), and
| the limited edition with a transparent case, which is NA only.
| So if you only want the electronics upgrade, you can probably
| get one.
| pawelduda wrote:
| Yes, just came to the same conclusion after reading more!
| thih9 wrote:
| What's the weight of the new models?
|
| The increased battery capacity sounds good, but I wonder how does
| it affect the handheld's weight - which is perhaps just as
| important for comfort.
| cricalix wrote:
| Lighter by a few tens of grams.
| nfriedly wrote:
| It's actually ~20g lighter.
| maxioatic wrote:
| ~640 grams, compared to ~669 grams for the previous model
| bmitc wrote:
| As a related aside: does anyone know of any companies or
| processes by which one can get low volume (think prototyping
| volume, i.e., single digit quantity orders) custom OLED screens?
| Bonus points if the OLEDs are able to be custom laser cut (the
| same process as the "hole punches" that are in smartphone
| screens).
| Dayshine wrote:
| How does OLED make sense for the steam deck when to my knowledge
| Linux does not support HDR?
|
| I wish I could install Linux on my laptop, but without HDR what's
| the point!
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| Valve has that side, too: https://www.phoronix.com/news/Valve-
| HDR-Linux-Gaming-Begins
| iuafhiuah wrote:
| SteamOS supports HDR, VRR and Raytracing.
|
| Joshua Ashton (Valve Developer) gave a talk called "Rainbow
| Frogs: HDR + Color Management in Gamescope/SteamOS" at XDC this
| year where he explained how they improved colour management on
| Linux when other people have so far failed.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/live/Gg4eSAP1uc4?feature=shared&t=40...
|
| Melissa Wen (Igalia) talked more about how they're gonna try
| and upstream the work, but there are lots of moving upstream
| parts and they all move very slowly in "The rainbow treasure
| map: advanced color management on Linux with AMD/Steam Deck"
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg4eSAP1uc4&t=4010s
|
| There is also a talk by Friedrich Vock called "Improving the
| World's Slowest Raytracer" about how they're slowly making RT
| viable on Linux.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg4eSAP1uc4&t=27361s
|
| Overall, a very interesting set of talks for anybody interested
| in Linux gaming.
| badsectoracula wrote:
| It is not as a simple as "Linux does not support HDR".
|
| The kernel's graphics API does expose functionality to use HDR.
| What is not there (yet) is Xorg and Wayland compositors using
| that functionality as well as programs written to target those
| being able to use whatever HDR Xorg/Wayland functionality would
| expose. For gaming Wine also lacks HDR support.
|
| Valve is bypassing the above by using their own Wayland
| compositor (gamescope) which is designed to run X11
| applications (mainly Wine/Proton) via XWayland and -IIRC- they
| hacked in a way to take over XWayland's output to force HDR so
| that Windows games running under Proton using Windows' HDR APIs
| will work under gamescope.
|
| The reason they can do that is because they can modify and ship
| the entire stack, but it its otherwise a very gaming-oriented
| gamescope-specific hack (you can't use the same functionality
| to get a window with HDR content under an otherwise "SDR"
| desktop).
|
| FWIW if you do have an HDR monitor (and perhaps an AMD GPU, not
| sure if this is a requirement) you should be able to use it on
| your own PC to run Windows games with HDR support - you'll just
| be limited to running them in fullscreen mode in a separate
| virtual terminal (i mean those you switch with the
| Ctrl+Alt+F<n> keys). I haven't tried it myself though because
| i'm using my own gamescope fork with some modifications i made
| and my code is a couple of years behind (long before the HDR
| stuff were added). Also while i technically have an HDR
| monitor, it isn't basically a somewhat brighter SDR monitor,
| not true HDR.
| Hamuko wrote:
| Considering how Valve has managed to turn the Linux gaming
| world upside down with Proton, I imagine they can figure out
| HDR too.
| intull wrote:
| HN folks, I feel a FOMO for this OLED version because it's just
| so cool, but I already own a Deck. Would you say there would be
| an OLED version again, even if limited in stock, in the future?
| bpye wrote:
| It looks like the OLED version is replacing the LCD one for the
| 512/1TB models. It's just the specific colourway that's
| limited.
|
| I'm in a similar boat - I'm gonna keep my LCD 512GB Steam Deck.
| jauntywundrkind wrote:
| DDR speed bump, from 5500MHz to 6400MHz. Some games are
| definitely gonna run faster.
| beebeepka wrote:
| Good, good. I have two gaming desktops and don't need it. What I
| need is something like the Legion Go. Not for gaming, mind you.
| Reading. A laptop is too big, a phone too small. I think it hits
| the spot real nice and people managed to get Linux working on it
| right away, which was to be expected. I wonder how much it weighs
| without the joypads
| Karawebnetwork wrote:
| How important is storage space on this device? Is 512GB or 1TB
| worth waiting for?
| ThatMedicIsASpy wrote:
| Depends on what you do, play, consider doing. I'm using it as
| my PC and love more storage. Once I finally buy a NAS I would
| care less.
|
| 256G+512G SD card and both are around 90% full.
| sphars wrote:
| I think it just depends on the games you play. Check to see how
| much space they'll use. Personally, I don't play a lot of "AAA"
| type games, I play more indie games, so 256GB has more than
| enough space for me. You can always upgrade the SSD or use a
| microSD card.
| timw4mail wrote:
| Between SD cards and M.2 drive upgrades being pretty painless,
| you can start small and upgrade.
| Pathogen-David wrote:
| Space 100% comes down to the games you expect to play.
|
| Also the 256 GB model isn't the new OLED model being
| highlighted by this post. You can still get the now-
| discontinued LCD 512 GB model at a discount if you're concerned
| about space and don't care about OLED.
| hospitalJail wrote:
| FYI 2023 is the year of the linux desktop. Its going to be about
| 4 years before anyone noticed that was it:
|
| >Microsoft flops on Win 11, anti-consumer features force a few
| casual users to try Linux Desktop again. They find Linux Desktop
| is robust AF, way less downtime than Windows their constant
| updates and their pestering. They shout the news from the roof:
| "The future is here"
|
| >Steam Deck making it mainstream. More resources, more users,
| high quality linux rather than cheap chromebooks/raspi. (Love my
| raspi thou)
|
| >Linux desktop being so solid. Fedora take my breath away. I
| cannot believe this is Linux. I can't believe Linux is literally
| better than Windows.
| mhh__ wrote:
| It'll never happen but I'd love if Valve could wack an M1 /
| similar apple chip on one of these
| teach wrote:
| Why? The AMD chip they're using has comparable performance-per-
| watt to the M1, and I'm not sure Proton knows how to run games
| on an ARM processor.
| boppo1 wrote:
| Good luck porting all the DX12 to Metal as well.
| filterfiber wrote:
| IIRC apple is actually going this same route as proton -
| wine + dx12/11 to metal
| mhh__ wrote:
| With Zen 2?
| sva_ wrote:
| Doubt an ARM chip would work well with Valve's approach of
| using Proton (Wine) to run the x86 binaries. And also not sure
| if the iGPU really measures up to RDNA (since Apple doesn't
| build their chips for gaming.)
| mhh__ wrote:
| It's mostly going to be bound by the GPU, which would be a
| wildcard, but i reckon you could match the existing
| performance for the same power draw, but then you also have a
| properly fast computer to plug into a monitor in your bag.
| tunnuz wrote:
| That's sexy. Too bad I bought one this year. And it's an amazing
| device.
| phartenfeller wrote:
| Interestingly, the processors changed slightly. Slightly smaller
| dies and GPU efficiency cores. But it seems like there are no
| real performance gains.
|
| OLED version: 6 nm AMD APU CPU: Zen 2 4c/8t, 2.4-3.5GHz (up to
| 448 GFlops FP32) GPU: 8 RDNA 2 CUs, 1.6GHz (1.6 TFlops FP32) APU
| power: 4-15W
|
| LCD (old) version: 7 nm AMD APU CPU: Zen 2 4c/8t, 2.4-3.5GHz (up
| to 448 GFlops FP32) GPU: 8 RDNA 2 CUs, 1.0-1.6GHz (up to 1.6
| TFlops FP32) APU power: 4-15W
| apatheticonion wrote:
| Any changes to battery life? Perhaps they are more interested
| in the improved efficiency
| goosedragons wrote:
| Yes, but they also added a larger battery.
| Zekio wrote:
| near double battery life if I remember what I read correct,
| due to bigger battery and more efficient apu and the display
| using less power as well
| jeffparsons wrote:
| I would guess it has more to do with current and anticipated
| future availability than anything else.
|
| I don't work in hardware, but I've read some wild anecdotes
| about the extreme difficulty of establishing a stable supply
| chain if you want to keep manufacturing exactly the same
| product for N years. I guess this won't be any surprise to the
| HN crowd, but often when you buy an X, it will have some
| different parts to the X (identical SKU) from last year and the
| year before.
| hiisukun wrote:
| I think this is important to prevent fragmentation -- it's too
| early in the steam deck product cycle for games to only run on
| "Steam deck OLED" if there was 10% extra performance.
| m00x wrote:
| Strange to be using Wifi 6 when Wifi 7 is right at the door. They
| could've waited a bit more and made something that has 4x the
| bandwidth over Wifi 6E.
| littlecosmic wrote:
| Neither this nor the original is available in Australia from
| Valve. They make it hard to be a fan.
| foxandmouse wrote:
| Disappointing APU upgrade, I've been waiting for them to refresh
| the device but this new version is significantly slower than the
| already available Asus ROG Ally.
| kraig911 wrote:
| I have the current 512. I won't be upgrading as I can't afford
| right before Christmas (got to get the kids things) But I will
| say I love love love my steam deck and I've bought so many more
| games because of it. Esp indie games. I think it's been great for
| everyone involved the gamer, the small developer and Valve. I
| really hope we see them continue to innovate. They're killing it.
| I honestly think they could make a tablet with SteamOS that just
| lets you use Bluetooth controls my kids and I would freak out.
| deergomoo wrote:
| Looks cool, gives me a slight pang of regret given the model I
| purchased 3 months ago is now the entry level and PS120 cheaper
| than what I paid. But I guess I knew I was playing with fire a
| bit.
|
| It's good to see Valve is staying committed to the platform
| though, it's an excellent machine and very cool to see active
| changes towards increased repairability.
| WithinReason wrote:
| Up to 90 Hz screen? That must mean it's variable refresh rate!
| xlayn wrote:
| There is a performance improvement as per [0][1] the memory speed
| went up from 5500MT/s to 6400.
|
| [0] https://www.steamdeck.com/en/tech [1]
| https://www.steamdeck.com/en/tech/deck
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