[HN Gopher] Binance founder Changpeng Zhao agrees to step down, ... ___________________________________________________________________ Binance founder Changpeng Zhao agrees to step down, plead guilty Author : himaraya Score : 440 points Date : 2023-11-21 17:20 UTC (5 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.wsj.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.wsj.com) | colesantiago wrote: | Good. | | May the entire of crypto be brought down with it. | ivanmontillam wrote: | If you could please elaborate, for the free curious spirits of | HN. | | Crypto has brought good in underdeveloped countries like | Venezuela and Argentina. Venezuelans use USDT to purchase real, | physical goods. Sometimes groceries. | AlexandrB wrote: | Have any numbers on this? The only numbers I could find are | very modest[1]. IIRC Zeke Faux, the author of "Number Go Up" | also noted that adoption is very illusory - like the "Accepts | Bitcoin" stickers you see all over the place Canada when | there's no functioning bitcoin payment processing inside. | | But besides all that, I think it's criminal to leave people | in underdeveloped countries at the whims of unaccountable | central-bank-style institutions like USDT. What will | proponents of this crap say if/when USDT collapses? "They | knew the risks"? Is the "crypto community" going to bail out | people who invested their life savings in this garbage[2]? | | [1] https://www.chainalysis.com/blog/latin-america- | cryptocurrenc... | | [2] https://old.reddit.com/r/AxieInfinity/comments/10ovcoo/lo | st_... | keep_reading wrote: | I think it's criminal to leave people in underdeveloped | countries at the whims of unaccountable central-bank-style | institutions like Federal Reserve. | Kranar wrote: | How does this in any way deter crypto, if anything it | strengthened it. Binance continues to operate, Zhao won't face | any actual penalty and continues to be a billionaire. | | Seems to me like Binance and crypto is the winner here. | AlexandrB wrote: | "This is good for Bitcoin" | almost_usual wrote: | > May the entire of crypto be brought down with it | | Pretty hard to get rid of decentralized systems. | colesantiago wrote: | Crypto is pretty centralised thanks to these exchanges and | many blockchains running solely on AWS such as Ethereum. | | Crypto being 'decentralised' is a well known myth. | lawn wrote: | You don't need exchanges for cryptocurrencies to work, they | just make onboarding easier. | everfree wrote: | Ethereum running "solely" on AWS is a myth. If AWS were | shut down, the chain would continue as usual. | wonderwonder wrote: | Anyone in the variety of South American countries experiencing | massive inflation would have been worlds better if they had | just parked their money in BTC. Crypto is full of scams but | there is also a world of positives and opportunity there. | n2d4 wrote: | They would've also been worlds better if they had parked | their money in Gamestop, or honestly even in a casino, but | that doesn't make it a sound investment | hi5eyes wrote: | why does orange reddit always have comments like this | whenever coins get mentioned | zarzavat wrote: | "Orange reddit" was one of the first places that Bitcoin | was discussed. Consequently there's an awful lot of | people here who know _exactly_ how much they missed out, | and express this by being saltier than dead sea whenever | the topic comes up. The accepted wisdom on HN, when the | bitcoin price was in the single digits, was that it was a | "tulip bubble" and you should absolutely not buy it under | any circumstances. | boeingUH60 wrote: | And many people were scammed and lost their savings to | BTC and other crypto schemes. It's funny how the Ponzi | promoters always forget that part when touting whatever | cooked-up reason they promote crypto for. | | But sure, in a sector where most of the biggest names are | fraudsters, some people still manage to be adherents. | keep_reading wrote: | These people were scammed by humans, not by bitcoin. | wonderwonder wrote: | The nigerian prince scam has been running on fiat for | decades | methodical wrote: | The accepted wisdom is still that it's a bubble and you | should not buy it, the price going up does not | necessarily mean that the price isn't higher than it | should be. Projecting everybody who disagrees with your | viewpoint as somebody who is angry they missed out is | simply a quick way to hand-wave away people who disagree | with your crypto-is-the-future dogma. I wasn't in the | early adopters per-say but I did do some crapcoin trading | back in the day and made a decent sum at the time, and | yet I still hold crypto and blockchain technology as a | whole as almost entirely pointless. I have still yet to | hear any real valid use of the technology that is better | than existing/alternative solutions. It speaks volumes | that the people who would know the most about the | technology (software engineers, who are prevalent here), | are the ones who (outside of the general public) believe | that the technology is largely pointless, if not | downright idiotic. | jgilias wrote: | I find it really hard to reconcile this viewpoint with | reality. I personally know businesses who use stablecoins | for international money transfers because it's just | faster and cheaper. | | Also, every month or so an article pops up here where | either some business is rekt because their payment | processor's automated process kicked them off, or | someone's bank account got closed in a similar way | screwing them. | | Yet the only way to self custody electronic money and | transact without intermediaries is somehow 'pointless and | idiotic'. | hef19898 wrote: | What kind of businesses? | jgilias wrote: | One is a run of the mill software engineering | consultancy, the other a startup making a development as | a service platform where they link companies needing work | with engineers in the developing world. | methodical wrote: | The key differentiating factor in your hypothetical | reasons why traditional finance is inferior to defi is | that there are systems to remediate the exact issues you | mentioned, whereas if you send your crypto to the wrong | address- it's gone. If you lose your seed words to your | wallet and can't access it, or someone else gets access | to them- it's gone. If you get scammed- it's gone. | Literally all of these things (which are a /feature/ of | the tech!) make it essentially unusable for any business | that isn't looking for an adrenaline rush. What I love | most about all of these shortcomings of the technology is | how much people who push it minimize all of these issues | by saying that it's user error, and people who utilize | good practices won't have these issues. It's almost as if | all of these people have literally never talked to a real | person. No regular person cares or would ever want to | care about hard wallets versus alternatives, seed words, | verifying addresses, and avoiding phishing scams. All of | these issues which can be mitigated by being technically | inclined fall flat on their face with any person who just | wants to send money to their grandson or pay a friend for | dinner. | wonderwonder wrote: | To be fair, people get scammed over wire transfers in | traditional finance all the time | jgilias wrote: | The reasons are really not hypothetical. That being said | though, I don't personally believe that crypto will or | necessarily needs to totally replace all fiat usage. It's | more along the lines of the realization that the | possibility to have electronic money kept and transmitted | outside of the fractionally reserved banking system is | immediately useful. | | Given the state of crypto adoption now, I can't imagine a | non-dystopian future a century from now where what we now | call crypto or digital assets haven't become a very | boring and non-remarkable part of the civilizational | fabric. | | I can imagine dystopian futures where that's the case | though. One would be where the infrastructure we use to | run crypto on (the internet, telecommunications) doesn't | exist. Another is where all the regulatory environments | for digital assets that currently exist (UK, EU, Canada, | etc) have been totally rolled back, and self-custody has | been made a criminal offense. Probably some type of | society straight out of hunger games. | lottin wrote: | I first read about Bitcoin on Slashdot. I thought it was | a stupid idea back then, and I think it's a stupid idea | now. Buying bitcoin in 2008 would have been a terrible | investment decision regardless of whatever result it | might have produced. If you don't understand that an | investment decision can't be evaluated after the fact on | the basis of the outcome of single random event you know | nothing about investing. | hi5eyes wrote: | downvoting just makes everyone on orange reddit seem | saltier | | but keep commenting the same dialogue prompt the salt is | pretty entertaining | unclebucknasty wrote: | Reflecting on how crypto once fit with the HN ethos. Hard to | say where the community is now, partly because I don't spend as | much time here. But it definitely seems to not be the darling | it once was. | | Don't know if this is because it's mainstreamed in a way that | makes it less "hacker"-appealing (quotes intentional), the HN | community has changed, or because crypto went full crypto-bro | so hard. | | May be some combination. | gizajob wrote: | Probably because the brave new world of cryptopunk anonymity | and liberation has turned into this mess of fraud and in- | your-face centralisation and crime. | methodical wrote: | I have to admit I do find it pretty funny when the people | who have touted blockchain and cryptocurrency as great | because of its decentralization have discovered /why/ a | central authority is incredibly important in finance. All | of the crypto pumpers start crying for government support | when they're the ones who get fleeced, when that's | literally built into the technology as a feature. | suoduandao3 wrote: | I imagine HN in particular is also quite dominated by | traditional US finance. | ravenstine wrote: | I honestly don't remember the time you are describing. As far | as I can remember, the most prevalent voices about crypto | from HN have been from the naysayers by far. The craze just | simply isn't there anymore, which is a very good thing. | People who refuse to try and understand cryptocurrencies but | tout fanciful things about them shouldn't be the ones | representing them. | tnel77 wrote: | And why would that be? | pawelduda wrote: | Because he's salty about it, the comment doesn't point at | anything else | colesantiago wrote: | Name any positive valid use case that crypto does better | than the current financial system. | glerk wrote: | Uncensorable money across borders | colesantiago wrote: | This is a perfect use case for criminals and ransomware | gangs which is certainly why crypto is popular for these | groups. | | Especially for funding the North Korean regime. | | https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-18/how-north-korea- | makes... | afroboy wrote: | You so realise that cash and gold are used by those | groups as first choice? | colesantiago wrote: | Except crypto is _way easier_ for criminals to move funds | around better than what you 've suggested. | glerk wrote: | Cool, but that's not what you asked, and you're moving | the goalposts. I suggest you slow down and think about | the pros/cons/tradeoffs instead of automatically going | down the decision tree of this argument. | colesantiago wrote: | What you've suggested is not a positive use case at all | but sure it's perfect for criminals. | | Great job. | keep_reading wrote: | Domestic and international settlement speed | colesantiago wrote: | Wrong. Wise does this better than crypto. | J_Shelby_J wrote: | Your comment presupposes every human exists in your | current, healthy, financial system. | colesantiago wrote: | lol that's not an answer. | mcintyre1994 wrote: | Visa are using it for cross-border settlements between | issuer and merchant banks: https://usa.visa.com/about- | visa/newsroom/press-releases.rele... | seydor wrote: | It won't though | pwb25 wrote: | SEC is a joke . Failed to stop FTX or donor scams, but then make | up accusations against a working exchange | boeingUH60 wrote: | He'll pay $4.3bn in fines and likely be sentenced to probation or | short home confinement instead of prison...in exchange for not | being a US fugitive. | | He'll step down from Binance and live the rest of his life with | billions. Sounds like a good deal :) | ivanmontillam wrote: | For a purposeful human being, that is also a miserable life. | | Pretty much like you cannot eat your favorite food anymore and | have to settle with "the next best" (philanthropy, maybe?) | boeingUH60 wrote: | Haha, I was actually referring to being a US fugitive as the | miserable life, which Zhao obviously wants to avoid. | rnk wrote: | Zhao can do new things with his billions. He can start new | companies, work in new markets if he wants. If he can | escape China's clutches with his money, I assume he can | travel the world. | hyperfuturism wrote: | I think he's relieved that he won't get lifetime prison, and | even years in prison. | | Living at the top, to having no freedom must be very, very | hard to stomach. I would take the deal too if I was CZ. | | Giving up some "power-grab addiction" for 100% freedom (and | being a billionaire still), seems very good for him. | fbdab103 wrote: | Adam Neumann is still getting huge financing. There is always | a way to keep hustling. | lenerdenator wrote: | ... for now. As interest rates stay above stupidly-low | levels, he's not going to be able to pull the capital he | used to. | RationalDino wrote: | What billions will he wind up with? | | Binance did a lot of fraud and money laundering. Clawbacks are | coming. There will be no fortune when the legal system is done | with him. | shawabawa3 wrote: | It's obviously just speculation but someone in his position | could very easily siphon off a few million in BTC/crypto at | the very least, and almost impossible to detect/trace if done | well | toomuchtodo wrote: | https://www.chainalysis.com/law-enforcement/ | | https://www.chainalysis.com/regulators/ | saalweachter wrote: | The second half of money laundering is you need a way to | pretend to have income from a plausible source. | | People will ask questions like "How do you pay for your | groceries?" and "Where did you find the money to buy a $37M | penthouse?" and your paper trail needs to convince people | the answer isn't "With the billions of dollars I | embezzled." | bnchrch wrote: | I understand your point but I feel like even a 10 year | old could come up with 100 plausible excuses. | | Many of them end with "Consultant", "Collector", or | "Trader". | saalweachter wrote: | For whom did you consult? What collection did you sell? | What trades did you make, with what starting capital? | | If you can't answer those questions -- questions the tax | man at least will expect you to answer, and probably | other people as well -- you might as well say "I found | money in the street." | EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote: | Husband :) | jawiggins wrote: | > What billions will he wind up with? | | You can pretty trivially check Binance's declared funds here: | https://www.binance.com/en/proof-of-reserves | | By my calculations they have >$6 billion in excess of | customer deposits. Since he owns Binance, he principally owns | those profits. | fhinson wrote: | Perhaps this was the final takedown necessary to pave the way for | BTC ETF approval. | janmo wrote: | Not before Tether has been taken down | roland35 wrote: | yup Tether is the biggest fake money printing machine that | keeps BTC afloat | TacticalCoder wrote: | I think so too however it looks like they may have printed | their (counterfeited) way into solvency. | | Basically: buy cheap BTCs, print shitload of tethers, sell | BTCs for real USD to the tune of tens of billions and now | store these real USD in short term US treasuries (they | don't own chinese treasuries anymore) bringing in 5% and | more. | | They're claiming they now have excess money (!) to back | their tether due to the fact that they collect 5% or more | of interest on the short-term treasuries they have. | | Put it this way: even if they printed $40bn out of their | arses out of $80bn of tether, the $40bn of actual USD | they'd have would still net them $2bn a year in interest. | That'd still be a big hole but... | | What if they printed "only" 10 bn out of thin air out of 80 | bn: they'd have near 70 bn bringing in 3.5 bn yearly at the | moment. | | They don't give any of the interest back to USDT (tether) | holders. | | So if they printed "only" 10 bn out of their arses, in less | than three years they'd have these 10 bn for real on | interest alone. | | It's still criminal (I guess) but it may not be "0% of | tether are backed". | | People have tried to run the maths on how much money | entered the cryptocurrency world (with Coinbase giving a | huge hint). | | Centre (Circle+Coinbase) has really $24 bn backing their | USDC coin (they publish the individual US short term | treasuries bill number). | | USDT (tether) is _much_ older than USDC. | | Did they cheat? Most certainly. | | Did they "fake it 'till they made it", helped, by sheer | luck, by interest rates going like crazy? | | I think it's _possible_. | ukoki wrote: | I think the fraudulent route to solvency is even simpler | than that: | | 1. Make Tethers out of thin air and sell for BTC | | 2. BTC price goes up because crypto boom | | 3. Sell enough BTC for USD cover the fake Tethers you | made up in step 1 | | 4. Balance sheet now looks legit, and you even have money | left over to buy yachts for everyone | kylebenzle wrote: | The ETF will have to be approved BEFORE Tether is brought | down. The powers that be need a way to control the price, an | ETF is the easiest but until then they have Tether. | | Why else would the US allow the largest counterfeit money | printer to continue for long? | lavezzi wrote: | > Why else would the US allow the largest counterfeit money | printer to continue for long? | | Incompetence. | rchaud wrote: | The US' incompetency usually doesn't extend to protecting | the primacy of the dollar. | halfcat wrote: | > Why else would the US allow the largest counterfeit money | printer to continue for long? | | Are you taking about tether or the fed? | crypt1d wrote: | While I can see how it helps clear the bad image of the | industry, the two are not directly related. The ETF was/is | going to get approved regardless. | smt88 wrote: | How does it help clear the bad image? There are seemingly no | large crypto orgs left that are untouched by criminal | convictions. | jgilias wrote: | There are no criminal charges involving Coinbase or Kraken. | Litigation by SEC yes, criminal charges no. There's a very | meaningful difference there. The first type can ruin your | business, the second put you behind bars too. | aswanson wrote: | Not your keys, not your crypto. Never use exchanges. | lavezzi wrote: | No large crypto orgs left? Tether has a market cap of $88bn | alone. | grey-area wrote: | Tether has been convicted of fraud. | rchaud wrote: | If that meant anything the USDT to USD peg would collapse | as it could no longer be redeemed for fiat. | Enogoloyo wrote: | So you tell me someone has 88bn us dollar or real assets | somewhere stored away safely? | | Somehow I doubt that. That would mean someone invested | this in a save and independent way with enough return to | keep it inflation save and apparently has no other idea | on how to invest that even more magical. | | How is tether really pegged safely? | lavezzi wrote: | I think you are preaching to the choir here, maybe I | misread the intent of the OP above me. | pants2 wrote: | That's why the ETFs are coming from non-crypto orgs - | Blackrock, Fidelity, etc. | mlrtime wrote: | Where do you think they get their BTC to fund the ETFs? | WinstonSmith84 wrote: | There are seemingly no large tradfi bank or organization | left that are untouched by criminal convictions. So then | what? | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | How will the BTC ETF even work? | | I'm not super savvy with money but why would anybody buy an ETF | and pay their fees when the assets in the ETF don't grow or | give dividends? How will they secure those assets? Cold wallet | in a vault? What happens if they do their audit and the backing | coins aren't there (stolen) or there's a hardware failure on | the cold wallet? | landemva wrote: | Like gold ETFs, they can do BTC synthetically via futures or | have a custodian take custody. | | The interesting ETF will be for Ethereum because a custodian | can possibly stake it and earn yield. ETH can earn within the | basic protocol. | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | Right but gold isn't easy to steal. Bitcoin can disappear | from a cosmic ray, hardware failure, remote theft, software | glitch, etc. | landemva wrote: | Sounds like digital assets are not for you. Gold and | silver coin in your pocket are a time-tested approach. | meowkit wrote: | Gold isn't easy to steal because there are centuries | worth of physical security demands that have evolved to | protect it. Its relatively easy to take a chunk of metal | from someone otherwise. | | Nothing you listed applies to bitcoin besides remote | theft. The whole point of a blockchain is be fault | tolerant in the face of those real failures. Remote theft | occurs from a failure to secure your private keys. That's | human error and will be resolved in the same way as gold | with... custodians aka a bank. | skywhopper wrote: | Gold isn't easy to steal because it's heavy, and the more | you steal, the more it weighs. There's a big difference | between stealing an ounce of gold and stealing five tons | of gold. But there's no difference in "weight" between | stealing 0.1 BTC and 10,000 BTC. | | Also, securing physical assets is much easier than | securing digital assets. | spacehunt wrote: | You don't have to put all 10,000 BTC in a single wallet. | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | You can get your coins back if your cold wallet is | destroyed? | psychlops wrote: | Yes, if only one of a 2 of 3 account was lost. A person | having a single seed phrase on a single cold wallet would | lose coins and would probably benefit from using a | service to educate them. | rahen wrote: | If you have stored your seed securely (in a safe, | preferably engraved on stainless steel), then no problem, | you can re-generate your private key on a new wallet from | it. | | If you haven't written down your seed before generating | your private key and also lost your private key, your | money is lost. Thank you for this sacrifice for the | common good, but you will want to educate yourself better | next time. | inthewoods wrote: | Oh where there's a will (and a profit) there's a way. See | this story about bags of nickels stored turned out to be | filled with rocks. | | https://www.businessinsider.com/jpmorgans-nickel-bags- | turned... | olalonde wrote: | You can laser engrave a Bitcoin wallet seed (24 words) on | titanium, store it in multiple locations and never enter | your seed on a networked computer to prevent remote | theft. You can also use a passphrase on top of your seed, | and store it separately, so that even if the seed is | physically stolen, the wallet won't be recoverable | without the passphrase. | TedDoesntTalk wrote: | For further protection, store those titanium blocks in a | "portable Hole" so they exist only in the Astral plane: | | https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/4699-portable-hole | thisgoesnowhere wrote: | And when everyone becomes super paranoid and keeps their | money from participating in the economy then we will | transcend. | rahen wrote: | Your coins aren't stored on a computer but on a | distributed ledger around the globe, secured with strong | crypto, Merkle trees and proofs of work. Your (hopefully | cold) wallet only stores your private key. | | Gold is hard to transport, easy to confiscate and hard to | divide, thus difficult to use as a currency. None of | those apply to Bitcoin. Well, unless someone is dumb | enough to leave his money on an exchange. | pawelduda wrote: | Coinbase would be the custodian | landemva wrote: | The big guys/gals/peoples at Fidelity and BlackRock also | want a piece of the crypto action. | | https://decrypt.co/97795/blackrock-handle-circle-usdc- | cash-r... | | 'BlackRock will become "a primary asset manager of USDC | cash reserves"--the fiat currency backing the Circle-issued | USDC stablecoin.' | tock wrote: | I believe the fee = the ETF holds bitcoin securely for you | instead of you having to deal with wallets. | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | Yes, how does the ETF hold and secure the coins is what I'm | asking. | thinkharderdev wrote: | I have no idea, but I assume that if they get hacked they | are liable for that. If the ETF is run by Bob's Bitcoin | ETF incorporated in the Virgin Islands then that's not | worth anything because there are no other assets to cover | losses. But if it's BlackRock (or some other large US | money manager) then they have plenty of other assets to | pay out. | scrlk wrote: | Blackrock will be using Coinbase as their custodian: | https://www.coinbase.com/prime/custody | | It's the institutional version of their Vault feature: | https://www.coinbase.com/vault | | > 98% of digital currency is stored totally offline, in | geographically distributed safe deposit boxes and | physical vaults. | chollida1 wrote: | They use a custodian like Coinbase or Gemini. | | The ETF then takes out an insurance policy incase the | custodian loses they BTC they hold on the ETF's behalf. | tock wrote: | Most likely some sort of cold wallet. With some in hot | wallets for liquidity. There are many crypto custodians | who do this. | | Now they do have to design redundancies for the keys. eg. | they should not lose access to the assets because say | they made it too safe and cant find the keys anymore :p | | It's funny because it happened with Prime Trust a crypto | custodian. But I'm sure a company like BlackRock can and | will do better. | 0xdeee wrote: | Well, BTC isn't some asset that doesn't have a track record | of growth. Take a look at the rate of growth in last decade. | Yes if you look in specific timeframes it will look like a | wreck. but looking at a bigger picture it makes sense. And it | is given that it will keep growing similarly in the long term | (Why?, thats a separate lengthy conversation the answer to | which also answers why some of largest finance players are | rushing to put out an ETF of BTC) | | Coming to the security and safety part. In theory, BTC was | made with a intension to be easily usable and accessible. | Once you understand it, its pretty simple and straightforward | (even easier than using a bank's service). No level of | hardware wallet failure will compromise the funds because the | funds are not in the wallet rather the record of the funds | are in 100s of thousands of BTC nodes that is being run by | miners and other enthusiasts. The real threat may be letting | people that share OTPs to scammer handle their private key | and seed phrase. Thats where custodians like coinbase comes | in. | | And to the point of how to make sure the fund held by | ETF/Custodian is actually there or not, This can be easily | verified. Tt is a public ledger and anyone with the public | key can see how much funds are held in the wallet. This | aspect of transparency is one of the key selling point of | BTC. | | I would recommend a short and interesting read - "Inventing | Bitcoin". | Enogoloyo wrote: | If BTC would always increase in value than it's doomed from | the start as it means people starting late have to pay much | more than an early person. | | This means rich late people will never migrate or buy BTC | ETF ever. | | It's like always buying at the increase | huitzitziltzin wrote: | Amazing that it's impossible to tell whether you are a real | crypto booster or joking at their expense. | npalli wrote: | "True crypto has never been tried" | arcticbull wrote: | I too enjoy the no true Scotsman fallacy | notJim wrote: | I dunno, people always invoke it in situations that are | similar, but not quite applicable. | from-nibly wrote: | No true "No true Scotsman fallacy" | akoboldfrying wrote: | Eh... Folks are just butthurt that they didn't get in on | the original Scotsman like I did. | | They poured scorn then, but I'm up to my eyeballs in | bagpipes now | robocat wrote: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman - I've | been meaning to look it up for a while. | optimalsolver wrote: | No true ScotsCoin. | toyg wrote: | Surely it's BitScoin | Terr_ wrote: | That branding may be rough, if ScotsCoin enthusiasts | harbor deep grudges against BritCoin. | cozzyd wrote: | Now I wonder, is https://scotcoinproject.com/ a joke or | not? | kylebenzle wrote: | XMR and BCH have been working great for a decade and in my | mind are the ONLY Cryptocurrency projects that are not | outright scams or digital ponzi schemes. | | It's odd how clear the picture is but how many people have | been fooled by fakes. What other industry is 99% scams and | only 1% legitimate? | ZoomerCretin wrote: | It's nice to see level-headed crypto optimism here. It's | disheartening seeing bulls who have long since stopped | pretending their favorite coin has any utility beyond | being a speculative asset and a get-rich-quick scheme | given its poor transaction rate, or that the features | they've bolted on will make it valuable, none of which | make it viable as a currency. | | Why would anyone bother with Bitcoin? | | If you want to avoid financial regulations in | transmitting value across borders or purchase black | market goods and services, you're going to be caught | since all/most Bitcoin is KYCd and impossible to keep | private, unlike Monero. | | If you want to avoid transaction fees, you're SOL since | it's at $10 right now versus $0.06 for Monero. | | If you want a store of value, it's poor because it's | volatile, not backed, and theft is not reversible, unlike | virtually any other regulated security. | | If you want to make legal purchases with it, any | transaction costs $10 and can take hours or days, and is | not reversible if you are defrauded, unlike USD. | | Bitcoin has no value proposition beyond being a | speculative asset and a Ponzi scheme for early buyers. | rahen wrote: | Be mindful of potential biases. Monero is rightfully | highly regarded for its privacy, but you may be | overlooking certain aspects: | | - Unlike Bitcoin, Monero's monetary issuance is not | auditable, which could prove a major problem in case of | an attack, potentially leading to inflation. | | - Monero faces blockchain bloat issues due to its ring | signatures. It cannot scale gracefully. | | - Privacy and transaction cost concerns with Bitcoin have | largely been addressed by Lightning and potentially other | upcoming layer 2 solutions. A lot of work is being done | here. If you are technologically inclined, you can also | participate: | https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning- | dev/20... | | - KYC happens on exchanges. Buy your BTC on decentralized | platforms like Bisq or RoboSats and be done with KYC. | | - A private-only ledger can pose challenges when | transaction notarization is necessary. Bitcoin lets you | choose between a private L2 transaction or a public | blockchain transaction. | | That said, I love Monero and am glad it exists. | kylebenzle wrote: | Has there been any Bitcoin "L2" that is actually | functional. Last I checked the inventor of the most | popular L2 said it was a failure. | rahen wrote: | Lightning has grown beyond its two original creators and | now has a healthy community behind it. Worth mentioning | are Rusty Russel (iptables, netfilter, some network | layers of the Linux kernel) and the fine folks at Acinq | (acinq.co). | | Yes, it still has some rough edges but it's now mostly | usable. https://medium.com/coinmonks/lightning- | network-2018-to-2023-... | | Besides, about 80% of transactions within exchanges are | actually off-chain, so this is nothing new. | tomcar288 wrote: | all i can say that, is you better have everything in | stocks, housing and gold, otherwise you're going to have | one sad retirement. | mst wrote: | zcash seems to be going in an interesting direction, | though whether they'll actually get anywhere remains to | be seen. | asterix_pano wrote: | Why BCH and not NANO? You like to wait and pay fees? | ipaddr wrote: | There are hundreds of coins some copied from bitcoin and | slightly changed like litecoin. | | The press has tricked you into believing every coin aside | from a few popular ones are scams. Dig deeper. | vkou wrote: | Ah, the classic 'do your own research.' | | If I dig deeper, and determine that <some shit coin> is a | scam, well, I am just looking at the wrong one. | | If I dig deeper, and decide that it's not, and then get | burned later, I should have done more due diligence. | | 'Digging deeper' in a minefield is, generally speaking, | not great advice. | matheusmoreira wrote: | Why are you downvoted? XMR is among the greatest | cryptocurrencies. It's everything bitcoin was supposed to | have been. The fact it's not in the top charts is proof | of the irrationality of the market. | vkou wrote: | Or, perhaps, it's proof that the purpose of crypto in | 2023[1] is not utility, it's line-goes-up. | | [1] And 2022, 2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, ... | matheusmoreira wrote: | Utility? It already works. I've gotten paid for services | via monero. | | I'd be very happy if Monero somehow turned into the | stable coin of crypto. It could just hover around | $150-$200 forever. | redox99 wrote: | The problem with XMR is that it works _too well_ , so | people are worried governments will ban it (thus the low | price). | matheusmoreira wrote: | Let them ban it. That's the perfect test for the | technology. | bogota wrote: | Not exactly. It is just pricing in the risk of the | government making the on/off ramps impossible to access. | matheusmoreira wrote: | There should not be any on-off ramps to begin with. | People should just transact in XMR directly. That's what | crypto was supposed to have been like. | pavlov wrote: | It's funny how true believers in communism and true | believers in crypto talk exactly the same way nowadays. | | "FTX and Binance are not examples of true crypto!" | | "Soviet Union and Venezuela are not examples of true | communism!" | yieldcrv wrote: | huh. both of those quotes are true for easily | quantifiable reasons? | | you don't have be a believer in either to understand that | objectively | netrus wrote: | It's a tautology, as no implementation of a concept will | ever be equivalent to the pure concept. The real existing | examples of implementations of concepts will still tell | you something about the viability of the concept. | codetrotter wrote: | > no implementation of a concept will ever be equivalent | to the pure concept. | | True crypto does exist. | | Bitcoin is true crypto. | | When I mine Bitcoin, and I use that Bitcoin to buy | something from someone else, that is true crypto. | | When I sell something for Bitcoin, that is true crypto. | | When I exchange fiat for Bitcoin at a centralized | exchange, and I successfully withdraw it to a self- | custody wallet. That is acceptably close to true crypto. | | Same goes for Monero. | yieldcrv wrote: | standing committees are necessary parts of communism that | always result in permanent authoritarian control of all | people and all resources. humans don't have a way around | that and that necessary phase is a prerequisite to the | ideological phase. there is no evidence that it is worth | pursuing given that irreconcilable implementation flaw. | | consumers choosing mismanaged companies are consumer | discernment problems that have nothing to do with the | sector they're involved in. specifically with crypto, | centralized exchanges and brokerage experiences are not | necessary parts of the crypto ecosystem and exist in | parallel to other ways of getting fiat in and out of | crypto, and other ways of getting exposure to the crypto | ecosystem. many proponents of the crypto asset ecosystem | have always sounded the alarm on those kinds of companies | and actively track how much crypto is held by the | companies or in self custody. | | analogies compare dissimilar things with common | attributes, what is the common attribute between | observers of these two concepts? | psychlops wrote: | FTX and Binance are exchanges, not cryptos. It's like | confusing NYSE and NASDAQ with the stocks that they | exchange. | Enogoloyo wrote: | The reason why people were investing in crypto was | 'legimit' infrastructure providers like FTX and binance. | jcpham2 wrote: | I've been using Bitcoin for a solid decade and I never | made an FTX or a Binance account- too many red flags: | leverage, derivatives, lending, etc. | spamizbad wrote: | I mean has Venezuela ever claimed it was communist? I | always thought it was socialist. Also its oldest standing | communist party technically sits in opposition to Maduro. | blululu wrote: | FWIW The Soviet Union never stated that it was communist. | They were officially socialist with the constitutional | goal of establishing communism. for that matter the | Mensheviks predate the Bolshaviks and always opposed | Lenin. | pavlov wrote: | Khrushchev, enjoying a short-lived post-Stalin economic | boom in the early 1960s, did proclaim that the Soviet | Union would achieve communism by 1980: | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism_in_20_years | | So for a while there was an actual date attached to the | constitutional goal. | | I believe the deadline was quietly buried by his | stagnation-oriented successors, but I'm not sure. | klooney wrote: | Saying that the Mensheviks predate the Bolsheviks is kind | of odd- there was one political party, then they had a | big fight and split in two. Menshevik literally means | "minority" and Bolshevik "majority", that's how | intertwined the two are. | vkou wrote: | By the time of the October Revolution, the Mensheviks | were actually a majority, and were a significant faction | in the Russian Provisional government. The Bolsheviks | were not. | | The Bolsheviks were a minority, but controlled key | elements of the army. After months of civil unrest and | violence, they staged an armed coup. | matheusmoreira wrote: | Cryptocurrencies are cryptocurrencies. Binance is an | exchange, essentially a bank in disguise. They are not | even in the same category. | FFP999 wrote: | Poe's Law and all. | bfung wrote: | Why does BTC need an ETF at all, doesn't that defeat the | purpose of owning one's own wallets? Also... exchanges | defeating the purpose of decentralization... | chollida1 wrote: | The simplest answer is that alot of people would like to hold | BTC in a tax advantaged account and an ETF wrapper is the | easiest way to do this. | | Others would like to buy it via retirement plans and having | an ETF makes this doable. | | Those that want to hold BTC incase the US dollar collapses | will hodl their own BTC. | | Those that want to hold BTC incase it really appreciates will | hold it via an ETF in a tax advantaged account so they don't | have to pay taxes on their gains, depending on the account | type. | vizzah wrote: | and those few.. who still expect to use it for payments..? | =) LOL. | bfung wrote: | Ah, nice! Applies regardless of what the underlying asset | is ~ some good ole' tax engineering. | thisgoesnowhere wrote: | Just say exit liquidity. It's faster. | rossdavidh wrote: | The purpose of decentralization was defeated a long time ago, | I'm afraid. | bfung wrote: | <sarcasm>I guess people trust Blackrock and CZ on setting | BTC prices more than they trust the greenback</sarcasm> | | Also, CZ (pleads guilty to money laundering charges): | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38366729 | jpmattia wrote: | > _Why does BTC need an ETF at all, doesn't that defeat the | purpose of owning one's own wallets? Also... exchanges | defeating the purpose of decentralization..._ | | Many financial institutions do not care about | decentralization, but they do care about investing in an | asset where they do not have to worry about managing the | asset (in that regard, similar to REITs). Having the asset | insured against various types of malfeasance is also a | requirement for investments by many institutional funds. | lawn wrote: | Your question is absolutely appropriate, as the _original_ | vision was not to have care about dollar values and instead | use BTC as money. | | But now the speculators have taken over, and all that really | matters is what BTC is worth in dollars. | sowbug wrote: | Many foreign-currency ETFs exist. Euros, or yen, or dollars | can function as currencies even though some people also view | them as investments. | | Commodities are similar. People might invest in pork bellies | even if they don't personally eat bacon. | crypt1d wrote: | Happy to see this whole thing finally coming to an end, its a | nice wrap to the dead market we've had for the past 2 years. I'm | excited for 2024 in crypto! | scrlk wrote: | I'm curious to see how BTC will fare. We've only seen the 4 | year halving cycle play out during a secular bull market so | far. | landemva wrote: | There were reward halvings in 2012, 2016, and 2020. I thought | the 2012 halving was the most uncertain, as it was the first | and the market had little liquidity. | | https://www.fidelity.com/learning-center/trading- | investing/b... | esafak wrote: | FTT to the moon! Oh wait. | rideontime wrote: | What makes you think this is the end of anything? | crypt1d wrote: | The rumour about Binance indictment by DoJ has been going | around for 1-2 years now. Its one of the last remaining | pieces of major news that could have potentially negatively | affected the industry. After two years of prosecutions, | regulatory uncertainty and general poor market conditions, | its only now starting to feel like there's light at the end | of the tunnel. | ratg13 wrote: | Pay no attention to those stablecoins over in the corner. | | The name implies they are stable, what more could anyone | want? | tucnak wrote: | Your optimism is fascinating & inspiring. Perhaps one day | it would mature enough for GNU Taler and the like. | yscal wrote: | do the recent Kraken charges change this sentiment at all? | artursapek wrote: | Coinbase has been charged with more or less the same | thing since this summer. The SEC is grasping at straws at | this point. | crypt1d wrote: | Not really. SEC investigations are civil, not criminal. | They might end up paying a fine, but there is no risk of | jail time or anything similar. Also, while I like Kraken | as an exchange, its market share is not significant | enough for it to matter in the big picture. | dragonwriter wrote: | > SEC investigations are civil, not criminal. | | SEC _investigations_ address both aspects, when it gets | past investigation to litigation, they do civil | litigation themselves and refer to DOJ for potential | criminal prosecution. | Enogoloyo wrote: | Light to final blow against crypto the horrible CO2 | production and the annoying get rich apps. | | Let's hope it dies sooner than later. | artursapek wrote: | Yes, it's so nice how the traditional finance system has | no CO2 emissions | Enogoloyo wrote: | The classical financial system has much less CO2 per | transaction and more features. | | It's the perfect finetuned and still optimized PoS | system. | asterix_pano wrote: | There are now lots of efficient cryptos and some that can | run on a single wind turbine. But I am with you, hoping | the energyvore ones die as fast as possible. | toenail wrote: | > Its one of the last remaining pieces of major news that | could have potentially negatively affected the industry | | Lol. Tether imploding anyone? | jgilias wrote: | That's pretty unlikely to happen at the moment though. | I'm far from a Tether fanboy, but in this interest rate | environment they are likely making boatloads of money | just by sitting on a nice chunk of T-bills. | vkou wrote: | > Its one of the last remaining pieces of major news that | could have potentially negatively affected the industry. | | What, is the giant ticking timebomb of the USDT money | printer not likely to 'negatively affect the industry'? | fallat wrote: | The current crypto market activity has nothing to do with | crypto news. The macro-economic state of the world is one where | everything is going up. | nprateem wrote: | More specifically now you can get actual real money by | putting your savings in a bank account (and most people are | struggling to pay the increased cost of living), there's less | incentive to throw it away in a casino. | psychlops wrote: | I suggest spending some time understanding why the cost of | living went up. Clearly you live in a place with a | relatively stable currency (for now). | nprateem wrote: | What's that got to do with it driving people away from | speculative assets? | shrimpx wrote: | 5% annualized on 4% inflation is a joke. I don't consider | "high yield" savings to be any kind of strategy. | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | Smart move to avoid jail. | pasttense01 wrote: | Anyone have a non-paywalled repost of this article? | buggeryorkshire wrote: | This was the one posted on r/buttcoin | https://www.wsj.com/finance/currencies/binance-ceo-changpeng... | hardwarephreak wrote: | https://archive.is/G8utD | carimura wrote: | anybody else have issues with archive.is lately? Tried two | computers multiple browsers and all I get is a never-ending | security check, sometimes with a captcha to really laugh at me. | greyw wrote: | Its cloudflare dns | javawizard wrote: | As in 1.1.1.1? I don't use 1.1.1.1 for my DNS provider and | yet I still get the never ending validation loop. | | I am on Google Fiber though, so I probably use 8.8.8.8 | without explicitly meaning to. Perhaps this is a problem | shared by both Cloudflare and Google's DNS proxies? | vlovich123 wrote: | If you're on iOS / Mac and have Apple private relay that | would also use 1.1.1.1 | javawizard wrote: | Oh interesting, good to know. I don't use Apple private | relay so that wouldn't be the problem for me. | abm53 wrote: | I use a Google mesh network and get the same issue, which | I assume is related to it using 8.8.8.8 by default. | rsweeney21 wrote: | Yes! Only happens on archive.is for me. | stillwithit wrote: | Has happened with various archive.* for me | lazyeye wrote: | Just put the fixed IP addresses for the various archive.?? | domains in your hosts file. This completely resolved the | problem for me. | greenyoda wrote: | Even easier: Switch your browser's DNS-over-HTTPS | configuration to another DNS provider. NextDNS works OK for | me. | lazyeye wrote: | Great suggestion. Have just done this now too. | | For Windows users, YogaDNS is a great little app for | managing DNS configuration. Can set up DNS rules | depending on domain name etc. | | I actually use PiHole and added Local DNS entries for the | archive.* domains in my PiHole config to fix the issue | across my local network. | noloblo wrote: | can you paste the relevant /etc/hosts lines | codetrotter wrote: | IP addresses might vary depending on geo location or | time. Here is what I get from DNS currently, that you can | put in your /etc/hosts | | 51.38.69.52 archive.is archive.today | | 41.77.143.21 archive.ph archive.li archive.vn archive.fo | archive.md | | And if all else fails, install Tor and access their site | at archiveiya74codqgiixo33q62qlrqtkgmcitqx5u2oeqnmn5bpcbi | yd.onion | rossdavidh wrote: | Same | el_benhameen wrote: | I think it's more general than this, but I have a hunch that | iCloud private relay sets off the security gremlins. | ct0 wrote: | no problem for me on nextdns | viewtransform wrote: | To fix this in Firefox | | Settings | Privacy & Security | DNS over HTTPS | Increased | Protection | Choose Provider | NextDNS | lordfrito wrote: | What about cofounder Yi He? If she's still in place then CZ | stepping down doesn't mean much. I mean they have two kids | together, don't tell me he won't be involved from the sidelines. | standapart wrote: | Exactly -- and CZ was always the fall guy. Yi is the | mastermind. | i4u wrote: | Can you elaborate more? I do not know anything about Yi and | how she is a cofounder. | lordfrito wrote: | Binance intentionally downplayed her role in the company | (and her relationship with CZ) for a long time. Now she's | seen as the most likely successor to CZ. | | Here's a recent article | | https://cryptoslate.com/reclusive-binance-co-founder-yi- | he-s... | Emoticon4032 wrote: | Here's an article: https://coincu.com/110838-he-yi-co- | founder-binance/ | costco wrote: | Incoming: third party compliance monitor (as always, run by ex | DOJ people) and a more risk averse CEO. I hope this doesn't mean | they eventually stop operating in the unregulated markets like | China, Vietnam, Turkey, etc. Bet365 and DraftKings do it but for | gambling so it's certainly possible to run a major respected | company while ignoring the laws of countries that don't have the | leverage America does. | Enogoloyo wrote: | China is not unregulated. | | And all countries strong enough with their own fiat do care | quite a lot to not having crypto in their country | costco wrote: | Sorry, I meant places where Binance is not licensed. This is | most of the countries they operate in. | fredgrott wrote: | I have a question why is what CZ did different from what SBF did? | I mean other than SBF getting caught over-extended in downgrading | market they both did the same type of fraud. | rossdavidh wrote: | What countries they hung out in, I think. The Bahamas is not | able to hold of US pressure for very long. | h4l wrote: | SBF lost customer funds by spending them as if they were his | own. CZ isn't accused of spending customer funds, he's accused | of letting people trade too freely. | grey-area wrote: | Binance is also accused of commingling funds. | jawiggins wrote: | AFAIK, commingling means that customer funds went into the | same account as business funds. SBF is accused of then | using those customer funds for business expenses, while | Binance _seems_ to have stopped at just not separating them | properly. | morelisp wrote: | It's the same violation of law but it doesn't quite look like | the same kind of fraud. What's illegal is co-mingling funds; | but you can co-mingle funds and do at least baseline proper | accounting to make sure you're not too in the hole, vs. co- | mingle funds and just straight up lie about how you're doing. | Y'know, you're just a regular libertarian guy looking to get | rich by breaking the law and not some coked-up wunderkind | thinking he gets to save or destroy the world. | thesausageking wrote: | FTX took funds from customers and used them to run a hedge | fund. When the fund did poorly, the customers' funds were gone, | leaving a $8B hole. And they lied to customers about it. | | Binance is very different. While it hasn't complied with | various securities laws, it's never lied to customers and has | kept customers' assets safe. They've also done steps to build | confidence and be transparent like verifying proof of reserves: | | https://www.binance.com/en/proof-of-reserves | | While this report isn't perfect, it does show that wallets they | control have as much in assets as they're supposed to, so we | know they're not doing what FTX did. | Apocryphon wrote: | Crypto, AVs, and AI. Is nothing sacred this week? | lenerdenator wrote: | When money stops being cheap, people stop being lenient. | | Never should have been that cheap to begin with, really. | gorbachev wrote: | Takes a thief to know one? re: CZ's campaign to expose FTX and | SBF. | olalonde wrote: | CZ was not accused of theft, he was accused of violating U.S. | anti-money-laundering requirements. | yieldcrv wrote: | woah! a guilty plea on the executive!? | | this will probably wind up like Arthur Hayes, where its just | probation | jihadjihad wrote: | CZ saw the immolation of SBF and probably decided it'd be a bad | move to do anything other than whatever his lawyers told him to. | rchaud wrote: | CZ is much smarter, he didn't have any number 2s that could | testify against him, and had already moved to a non-extradition | country years ago. SBF thought he was cleverer than everybody | and testified himself straight into a 8x10 cell for the | foreseeable future. | Nevermark wrote: | Every move SBF made after his fall seemed extremely poorly | thought out. | | Not a hater, just processing the dichotomy of his genius | image with his ingeniously ungenius self-immolation. | | Lesson: Looking like you make lots of money makes you look | very smart. | rchaud wrote: | PR rules the day, especially when you're VC-funded and have | to maintain the charade of subject matter expertise. | Although you'd think his Stanford Law professor father | would have at least attempted to duct tape his son's mouth | shut when it became clear he planned to testify. | ZoomerCretin wrote: | I'm surprised no one has brought up the famous quote from this | Binance saga: | | 'We are operating as a fking unlicensed securities exchange in | the USA bro.' | | https://www.businessinsider.com/sec-complaint-against-binanc... | thr0waw4yz wrote: | I wouldn't put a foot on US territory if I was him. Really wonder | why didn't just wait it out in UAE. | nashashmi wrote: | > plead guilty to violating criminal U.S. anti-money-laundering | requirements | | This has nothing to do with crypto. What forces him to comply | with supposedly US dictatorship? Apparently this was a move | against Iran and maybe Russia. | wnc3141 wrote: | would crypto investors or optimists consider the recent legal | woes in the space to be a much needed clearing out of bad actors | or a sign of falling confidence in crypto? | shawn-butler wrote: | Most crypto companies and investors are now AI investors / | pivots. Don't think many are left to answer your question. | tim333 wrote: | I'd say mostly a needed clearing. Confidence is probably | recovering a little from the FTX collapse low. | underseacables wrote: | I'm absolutely astonished by this. He lives in the Middle East, | which does not have any extradition treaties with America. | Granted, he might transit a country that has a treaty, but I'm | really shocked that he would give him. What did they have over | him? Maybe it was China... | dragonwriter wrote: | > He lives in the Middle East, which does not have any | extradition treaties with America. | | Some Middle Eastern countries have extradition treaties with | the US, but, more relevantly, a number of countries have legal | extradition processes not dependent on treaties, including the | UAE, the country where he lives. | pants2 wrote: | Binance is also paying many billions in fines to the US and | exiting the US completely. I also don't understand why - if | they're presumably headquartered outside of US jurisdiction, | what are they gaining by paying exorbitant fines? | | They're also further inviting every country they've ever had a | customer in to levy huge fines against Binance. | mandevil wrote: | I suspect that the threat of something similar to Global | Magnitsky Sanctions (cutting them off from all dollar- | denominated accounts everywhere) is a pretty big stick to use | in negotiations. For a financial firm like Binance, access to | bank accounts that can send dollars to and from US firms is | pretty important, even without any US customers at all | (losing access to banking in France, Cyprus, etc. would be | equally difficult for them). | | The US has recently (gradually over the past 20 years or so) | started to really weaponize access to dollar-denominated | accounts, essentially conscripting all the banks that want to | do business with American banks into service of American | foreign policy goals. This started in the aftermath of | September 11th, for terrorism, then spread with the Magnitsky | act of 2012 to include international corruption, and has | slowly spread to more and more areas. So far the US has been | somewhat judicious about using the tool- they seem to be | aware that if they use it too often people will eventually | just build ways around it- but it is a pretty big threat to | wield against a company that absolutely needs to do business | with somebody's banks. | ReptileMan wrote: | Btw - I never found a good explanation why all USD | transfers need to be routed trough usd banks. Google is | quite silent on the subject - is it common knowledge or too | obvious? | tim333 wrote: | Binance does a lot of business in the US. Probably in exchange | for paying fines etc they will be able to keep in operation. I | assume CZ himself won't suffer much. The Bitmex guy pleaded | guilty of not enforcing AML properly and ended up with 6 months | house arrest at home. | ceejayoz wrote: | > He lives in the Middle East, which does not have any | extradition treaties with America. | | He lives in Dubai, within one of the US's closest allies in the | region. I'd be worried. | ptero wrote: | There are _so_ many people who do not want to show up in the | US (or elsewhere) and are living in Dubai that I would not be | too worried. There is a full spectrum from former businessmen | to current warlords. | | Dubai has a lot to lose by damaging its reputation as a safe | haven for wealthy exiles. My 2c. | civilitty wrote: | Just because a government doesn't have an extradition treaty | doesn't mean they won't extradite. Most countries with non- | extradition policies only apply them to native-born nationals | and sometimes citizens in general. For some random foreigner, | it depends entirely on the geopolitical situation. | zztop44 wrote: | Imagine you're a guy with many billions of dollars. Would you | pay a few of them in order to not be an international fugitive | for the rest of your life? | underseacables wrote: | As another person pointed out, he may have seen the | catastrophe that SBF created, and decided cooperation was the | best way to avoid that. Perhaps I was shocked due to Zhao's | general hubris. | jawiggins wrote: | It seems like they got a deal where they can pay a fine and | continue doing business in the US. | | If you were him, why would you lose ~20% of your customers when | you could just pay a fine and keep going? Sure he steps down, | but he still owns the company. | blobbers wrote: | SBF decided to testify against CZ to try to save his own ass, | giving justice dept and sec something to fine CZ with. | | Govt collects a big crypto fine, fine makes the big losers in FTX | whole, problem solved. | | CZ should have just bought FTX and closed the deal and made | people whole, woulda saved himself some drama. | firekvz wrote: | he has infinite supply of money to pay any fine, i dont really | understand the fine amount, whats the porpouse of it, u either | force them to destroy the whole exchange or just try to make | their complete reputation go down but this looks like the govt | getting some pocket money and letting them keep doing nasty | things overseas and thats it? | fyokdrigd wrote: | that's what fines are for. | | most people criticize fines as a mere check for the offender | belonging to some moneyed elite and nothing else. | | fines are not replacement for civil law. if anyone think they | were wronged, that's the only way. not a magically proactive | government becoming their patents. | crispyambulance wrote: | Isn't it better to just go after the scammers and fraudsters as | soon as possible? | | Otherwise somebody else will be left "holding the bag" | eventually (and it will be a larger bag). | | I might be old-fashioned but these fines and charges, to be | clear, are for ACTUAL wrong-doing, you know, MONEY LAUNDERING. | That's greedy-bad-guy stuff. It's not arbitrary or simply a | matter of "avoiding drama". | xur17 wrote: | > SBF decided to testify against CZ to try to save his own ass, | giving justice dept and sec something to fine CZ with. | | Is this conjecture? | jawiggins wrote: | Why would these fines go to debtors of a private institution? I | believe DOJ fines typically get deposited into the US Treasury. | __loam wrote: | It would have failed eventually. FTX was fundamentally | unstable. | SeanAnderson wrote: | Everything fails eventually. | redox99 wrote: | Rumor is that FTX is not that awful financially right now, | because of their Anthropic investment. | to11mtm wrote: | ... I mean right now maybe, OTOH that space is as volatile | as Crypto was 13ish months ago. | drited wrote: | Check the Reuters investigative pieces on CZ and Binance from | 2022. They had plenty to fine him with before SBF's testimony. | | I actually can't believe he didn't get jail time given the | severity of what was uncovered. | OsrsNeedsf2P wrote: | > Lim also acknowledged in February 2020 that some of | Binance's customers, including those from Russia, were | involved in illegal activities, according to the complaint. | Lim wrote in a chat message about those trades: "Like come | on. They are here for crime." Money Laundering Reporting | Officer at Binance responded at the time, "we see the bad, | but we close 2 eyes." | | https://archive.is/Q8uu3 | sosuke wrote: | Fines always feel meaningless. Who gets the money? | ourmandave wrote: | Zhao isn't getting any jail time. Wonder who he rolled over on | for that deal. | PUSH_AX wrote: | Like this space couldn't get more ridiculous. | partiallypro wrote: | I just saw the headlines that Binance knowingly let ISIS, Hamas, | Al Qaeda and Iran use their platform to launder money. Hot take: | that doesn't seem great. | drited wrote: | Yes I cannot believe CZ avoided jail time. | mrbonner wrote: | In a sense, this is prisoner dilemma at play here :-) Other guy | confessed and agreed to testify against CZ. The optimal path for | CZ is to confess. | bitcharmer wrote: | Someone correct me if this is false but it looks like so far an | overwhelming majority of crypto firms have been utter scams. I | frequently get job offers in this space, always decline stating I | don't want to be associated with organised crime. | popcalc wrote: | He doesn't have that kind of money. That's VIP client money and | he is going to have a target on his back. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-11-21 23:00 UTC)