[HN Gopher] Ask HN: How should I setup a phone for a newly blind...
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Ask HN: How should I setup a phone for a newly blind relative?
I am home for the holidays and my grandfather is newly blind. He's
never learned braille or anything else and I believe it can be a
relatively isolating experience. While I'm in town for the
holidays, I would love to help him get back into things like
podcasts, audio books and WhatsApp. Does anyone have
recommendations for how to help set this up? He currently has an
iPhone but if android phones are superior for blind users, I would
happily help him switch.
Author : tallowen
Score : 189 points
Date : 2023-11-24 17:26 UTC (5 hours ago)
| nezza-_- wrote:
| Couple of things I learned from helping some blind people:
|
| - All used iPhones (Check out
| https://www.apple.com/accessibility/vision/ )
|
| - Disable passcode if he's okay with it
|
| - Enable VoiceOver (Settings -> Accessibility) and learn how to
| enable/disable it (triple-tap the side button. Might be difficult
| for elderly) - Apple video on it:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDm7GiKra28
|
| - Having a learning partner really helps the blind person. Try to
| learn to use a phone blind with him, it will allow you to help
| debug his (most definitely occuring) issues
|
| - Watch some videos on how blind people use the iPhone, lots of
| tips there. For example Molly Burke, or even simple ones like
| this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FVjLXIaBC4
|
| - For elderly, an iPad is really nice. Especially as dexterity
| gets worse it's easier to use blindly. Also usability between
| iPhone and iPad is almost the same, so easy transition between
| both (i.e. on the go)
|
| - For movies, check out Greta. It plays the AD in parallel with a
| movie via the iPhone - so they can watch movies together with the
| family, without everyone listening to AD
| https://www.gretaundstarks.de/starks/GretaAndStarks
|
| And bring lots of patience :)
|
| What is really amazing is how fast people tend to improve:
| VoiceOver lets you adjust the speech speed etcpp, and so it
| "grows" with you
| colingoodman wrote:
| You can also use Siri to enable/disable VoiceOver
| gostsamo wrote:
| Either I'm not blind or I'm not using a phone, because I have
| an android. With pass phrase, thank you very much.
|
| Both IPhone and Android have screen readers, with Android
| having the ability for alternative sr-s and voices. The Iphone
| is more integrated as far as I know, but the default google
| apps are pretty accessible on Android as well. There is a
| mailing list for blind android users if you want more advice,
| but if your grandfather is used to the Iphone, there is no
| reason not to use it. The default apple recourse on the topic
| is applevis, if I remember correctly.
| 1f60c wrote:
| "Every blind person this person has helped uses an iPhone"
| doesn't imply "every blind person uses an iPhone."
| gostsamo wrote:
| you are right. the sr pronounced "used" as "use" and I've
| took it for more generalizating statement than it was.
| Still, the idea of removing security because people are
| presumed unable to enter their passwords or because it
| would make it more convenient for someone else triggered me
| badly.
| bregma wrote:
| I don't know if you're aware of the irony presented by
| suggesting videos about how to use a phone if you're visually
| impaired.
| midasuni wrote:
| The person asking isn't blind
| lexicality wrote:
| Is there a website that works like youtube but for audio
| only? Because otherwise thoughtfully produced videos are
| going to be the best way for someone who doesn't know how to
| use a screen reader efficiently to gather information.
| kelnos wrote:
| I read that as a suggestion for (sighted) OP to watch the
| videos so he could understand how to help his (blind)
| grandfather better.
| ceautery wrote:
| I worked under a blind manager when the iPhone first came out.
| He was a former dev before his vision started to go. He was a
| power user while blind, and knew twice as many hot keys as I
| did, had his screen reader speed cranked up to a rate
| incomprehensible to me.
|
| I remember how happy he was with the iPhone. He said it was the
| first device he was able to use without special accessibility
| software, and that was in 2007, I imagine the experience is
| better today.
|
| I'm sure you're (OP) already on the ball with ways to help him,
| but if you haven't looked into movies with described audio,
| apparently it makes a whale of a difference.
| baz00 wrote:
| I was served by a blind person in the Apple Store this year
| who was using an iPhone as an aid. Absolutely amazing.
| nottorp wrote:
| I remember running into an article praising iOS's features for
| blind users. Can't find it again, of course, but it was
| describing how the phone told the user into their headphones
| whatever was under their finger on the screen.
|
| So you may just have to read on what his existing phone can do
| and turn it on for him.
| RecycledEle wrote:
| Some people who are legally blind can still see a little. I've
| helped legally blind student zoom in on text so a single letter
| was 15 inches tall and they could read it.
|
| Does this newly blind person have any sight?
| tallowen wrote:
| Unfortunately, this used to be his situation but the blindness
| now limits all reading.
| kldavis4 wrote:
| Supersense (ios/android) is the app that was recommended for my
| grandmother and can be used for reading mail, etc. I honestly
| found it to be buggy and hard for her to use. The main
| difficulty, though, was she couldn't easily get her phone turned
| on and open the app in order to actually use it. Eventually she
| gave up on the smartphone. She does really find Alexa useful for
| the limited tasks it is capable of. I'm thinking about having her
| try a nest hub as google's assistant seems to be a bit more
| capable.
| breadwinner wrote:
| Seeing AI is a free app that narrates the world around you.
| Designed with and for the blind and low vision community, this
| ongoing research project harnesses the power of AI to open up the
| visual world by describing nearby people, text and objects.
|
| https://apps.apple.com/us/app/seeing-ai/id999062298
| TriNetra wrote:
| setup voice over, siri, BeMyEyes as first things. More details
| here https://www.applevis.com/guides/beginners-guide-using-ios-
| vo... and more articles/podcasts here
| https://www.applevis.com/new-to-ios
|
| For android I do the following things: 1. assign swipe with 4
| fingers left and right to FirstItem and LastItem on screen,
| respectively, in talkback settings > customize gestures
| a. download labels and icons so unlabeled buttons with icons can
| be guessed and spoken b. in advance settings, choose
| typing preference as hold and double tap (any key). Also turn on
| "speak passwords"
|
| 2. set auto rrotate to off in notification window
|
| 3. turn on google assistant by tapping and holding the home key
| a. setup your voice by saying ok google and following the prompts
| to train on your voice
|
| 4. install google keyboard a. in its settings >
| preferences, turn on number row (show always) b. make
| sure suggestion strip is not off in text correction as it won't
| longer show voice input on the keyboard as well0 c.
| make sure in emojis, stickers and gifs, the predictive suggestion
| content is off
|
| 5. install lookout app for object/text/currency/etc recognition
| a. download food labels/images caption/currency (for your
| country)
|
| 6. Place frequently used apps like Whatsapp/Phone/Messages/etc on
| the bottom favorites tray
|
| Also must learn and practice gestures in the tutorial app.
|
| Additionally, I keep screen lock turned off and instead use
| Secure Folder (Samsung) for critical apps like banking, though I
| wouldn't recommend this unless you are sure that you have no
| prying eyes around at all times.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| The difference between the instructions for iOS and Android
| should be informative.
| probably_wrong wrote:
| I know of two HN previous discussions on the topic, I suggest
| going through them as they're full of good advice:
|
| 3 months ago, 133 comments:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37293002
|
| 8 years ago, 81 comments:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9546311
|
| My mom never got the hang out of using her iPhone with VoiceOver,
| but she uses Siri regularly ("Hey Siri, send a new WhatsApp
| message to Tom"). Siri is sometimes annoying because it will
| answer "this is what I found, take a look" which, unfortunate
| wording aside, is difficult for her to follow because (again) she
| never really got the hang of touch-only iPhone and therefore
| cannot scroll well through the options. It depends on how
| technical your grandfather is.
|
| I wanted to set an Alexa as a music+podcasts+audiobooks station
| but the awful integration between Alexa in Spanish and Kindle cut
| that short. But you may have better luck.
| bithaze wrote:
| Assistive Access is new in iOS 17 and might also be helpful for
| simplifying the UI: https://support.apple.com/guide/assistive-
| access-iphone/set-...
| rafram wrote:
| I don't think that feature is intended for blind users.
| bcx wrote:
| My recommendation (in addition to the specific technology advice
| on this thread) is to connect (or help him connect) with an
| organization that helps blind folks adapt to blindness and
| specializes in using and training folks in using assistive
| technology.
|
| If you are in the Bay Area, an organization like lighthouse for
| the blind would be a good place to start: https://lighthouse-
| sf.org/about/getting-started/ -- there are many regional
| organizations similar to this filled with good people who want to
| help.
|
| Or: https://nfb.org/programs-services
|
| Organizations like NFB and Lighthouse for the blind offer
| rehabilitation services and training, and might be able to
| provide some recommendations as well.
|
| Also, you likely already know this, but there are many degrees of
| legal blindness, so the technology tooling varies based on
| specific challenge to overcome, and only 10% of the blind
| population knows braille.
|
| If you really want to go down the technology rabbit hole, the
| CSUN conference in March is like the CES for assistive
| technology: https://www.csun.edu/cod/conference/sessions/
|
| Assistive tech is a pretty fascinating area. I expect this area
| to grow as we have more aging tech savvy folks who want to keep
| using technology as they age.
| xattt wrote:
| > My recommendation (in addition to the specific technology
| advice on this thread) is to connect (or help him connect) with
| an organization that helps blind folks adapt to blindness and
| specializes in using and training folks in using assistive
| technology.
|
| If the family member is within the medical system, there
| would/should be an occupational therapist part of their care
| team that could identify and provide supports around day-to-day
| life.
|
| We want to jump in to assist at times like this, but you and
| they are not alone if the supports are in place.
| mywacaday wrote:
| In case you haven't come across it already I recommend the app
| https://www.bemyeyes.com/. It allows the user to call a volunteer
| for assistance, I've volunteered on this for several years and
| have helped with everything from booking a holiday online, doing
| a needle prick for a diabetes to help wrap Christmas presents.
| The app looks to have gotten ChatGPT like AI help as well
| recently.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| I think it is _actually_ ChatGPT - and it 's one of the few
| genuinely beneficial uses of the technology. Sure, you have to
| watch out for it making up an "explanation" of what's in the
| image, but if you treat it like a whimsical, self-absorbed
| prankster, it's _so_ much better than not having it.
|
| I'm looking forward to a system that _only_ describes what it
| sees (and what can be drawn from it), rather than doing stuff
| like trying to explain non-visual jokes (that, inevitably, it
| doesn 't get). As I understand, that would require training new
| models from scratch, on training data that might not yet exist
| - but unlike the majority of the LLM GenAI hypey nonsense, this
| is actually a real, useful tool.
| ska wrote:
| Fwiw, I've been on a bunch of these calls and often the first
| problem is the phone isn't pointed quite right at the thing
| they are asking about. This would be difficult for a chatbot
| I think.
| TheEaterOfSouls wrote:
| I'm blind and I use a 13B LLaVA model locally. I haven't
| checked with a sighted person about how accurate the image
| descriptions are, but it seems to generally do okay
| (described some recent vacation photos pretty well, except
| sometimes it would list objects that I'm pretty sure aren't
| actually there in the images). Haven't tried GPT via Be My
| Eyes because I prefer using my laptop over my phone, but I
| imagine it'd be a lot better. For now I make regular use of
| the local model with a shell alias when I want something
| described, even solved a captcha that I couldn't OCR with it
| the other day. So yeah, this is one application of ML I'm
| really excited about, the other being Whisper (speech
| transcription), because I have profound hearing loss and can
| use it to transcribe things I can't hear in the audio.
| ska wrote:
| It's been around for ages, I think the ChatGPT stuff is pretty
| recent.
|
| One really smart thing they do is localize the volunteers as
| much as possible, so often if the question is something like
| "Am I at the corner of X & Y" there is a good change you (the
| volunteer) know the area, etc.
|
| Things I have learned on the "volunteer" side: keeping track of
| canned food is often a problem, people worry about their
| outfits a fair bit, and parks are sometime difficult because
| there are lots of alternate paths/routes.
| VoodooJuJu wrote:
| Several good technology suggestions already, but I want to
| emphasize a suggestion of a different kind.
|
| Recalibrate your culture: live with (or _very_ near to) family so
| you can help your family. We see concerns like these often enough
| about complex technological solutions to help lonely, elderly,
| and otherwise impaired family members, and the tech suggestions
| are nice, but there is no substitute for actually being there for
| someone, no substitute for actually being a family member in the
| traditional sense, i.e. to be physically available free of
| charge, no strings attached, and without technological
| limitations, to almost immediately help a kinsman, your blood,
| with whatever it is they need.
|
| Modernity has dealt a serious blow to the traditional family,
| Anglo cultures in particular. What used to be provided with
| tender love and care for free from one's kinfolk is now packaged
| and sold to you as a variety of products and services. I think
| it's a bad thing for everyone involved, on many levels,
| financially, liberty-wise, and socially.
|
| I realize this solution is likely an unfeasible change for you,
| for many, but it really ought to become the norm again, for our
| children's sake.
| User23 wrote:
| Help him get a free NLS[1] Bard[2][3] account! They provide high
| quality audiobooks of all sorts. Their library is extensive, and
| they also have some periodicals. There is no cost to users, but
| you do have to demonstrate eligibility. He can get a dedicated
| device, but their iOS app works just fine.
|
| [1] https://www.loc.gov/nls/
|
| [2] https://nlsbard.loc.gov/
|
| [3] https://www.loc.gov/nls/how-to-enroll/sign-up-for-bard-
| and-b...
| acdha wrote:
| Just as a side note, the BARD eligibility was expanded recently
| to include more than pure blindness: people with low vision,
| dyslexia, and even motor impairments - basically anyone who
| can't read a regular book should discuss it with their doctor
| (e.g. a person with limited use of their hands might have fine
| vision but still wouldn't be able to read a book).
| arbitrarian wrote:
| Great advice so far in this thread. I would just add that the
| must have apps are Be My Eyes, as already mentioned. This allows
| him to snap a photo and have it described by ChatGPT4-vision for
| free. He can also ask for more info etc. And if that doesn't work
| out, he can call a volunteer for free, 24-7.
|
| Another good one is Seeing AI. This one is from Microsoft, and it
| has all sorts of useful utilities inside it, including a way to
| tell how bright a room is (helps to know if you left lights on or
| not), a barcode scanner that gives you product info (it beeps at
| you faster or slower to let you know you're getting warmer), a
| color analyzer that kinda' works sometimes, a document reader
| with voice guidance to help you get the camera lined up, a
| currency reader, and I think a few more goodies.
|
| Many countries also have a library service for the blind. In the
| United States, it's called the National Library Service for the
| Blind. Definitely get him setup with them, or your other
| country's library service. The one in the U.S. let's you download
| an app and download tens-of-thousands of audiobooks for free.
| They also have a few magazines that they record each month. It's
| pretty amazing, and all available from his phone. The app is
| called Bard Mobile in the U.S.
|
| I happen to be blind myself, so feel free to ask anything else
| you would like. I've been doing this for a while, and there are
| several more of us here as well.
| zie wrote:
| > He currently has an iPhone but if android phones are superior
| for blind users, I would happily help him switch.
|
| They are roughly identical in a11y, there is no point in
| switching. Apple got there first, and they had full-time blind
| developers on staff working on it first, so they got first mover
| a11y advantage, but mostly now it's a wash between the two.
|
| > Does anyone have recommendations for how to help set this up?
|
| If "holidays" mean the weekend, anything more than getting Siri
| turned on is probably pushing it. If "holidays" mean through New
| Years, then you have a much better chance of being useful.
|
| Unless you are going to be there in person long-term to help him,
| you are better off getting him connected with someone that will,
| preferably a family member close by or an organization dedicated
| to the blind, that can help him adapt his life.
|
| Otherwise just https://www.apple.com/accessibility/vision/ and
| turn those things on that make sense for him, make sure he knows
| how to talk to Siri and access to audiobooks/podcasts, etc.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| That may be true with regards to iOS vs Android. But there are
| a few things you're missing - a much larger community of blind
| iOS users, consistency in devices - ie you always know that
| you're going to get a minimum quality - longer device operating
| system updates and Apple Stores for in person support.
| reaperducer wrote:
| The last time I was in Houston (about a year ago), there was a
| radio station for the blind on 88.7 KUHF-HD4. It was also carried
| on KUHT 8.5.
|
| In addition to the usual programs of people reading newspapers
| and magazines to the blind, it had programs to help blind people
| use technology. The program I stumbled across was specifically
| about how to use an iPhone as a blind person. I think it was a
| daily program.
|
| I don't know if it's still on in Houston, but if it was a
| national program, you might be able to find it online somewhere.
| twobitshifter wrote:
| If he's like my dad (72) learning siri is the best shot. He also
| likes books on tape, which you can get a free BARd player for.
| There's a USB stick that you can pop in for loading podcasts and
| other mp3s. The player has big buttons that are easier to
| interact with than a touchscreen.
|
| My dad's phone is set up to announce callers and auto answer.
| Hanging up is a bit of pain. You can set siri to listen to 'siri
| hang up'. I think there's an option to use the side button too.
|
| There's also a new more accessible home screen in ios 17 that I
| was going to try setting up for him which might work better with
| voiceover.
|
| I also tried a bluetooth controller with him instead of the touch
| screen but at this point he thinks Siri is easier than any option
| that requires him to touch the screen or use a controller to move
| through options.
| mltony wrote:
| My two cents: learn VoiceOver for iPhone yourself, turn on screen
| curtain for further realism, and spend tons of time with your
| relative practicing simple things. I am blind and a couple of
| years ago I was trying to help a friend to learn VoiceOver - the
| friend wasn't that tech savvy, and it turns out that even simple
| concepts like swipe left or two fingers double tap present some
| difficulty to them. So have a lot of patience, but in the end if
| they can learn to use apps like Mail or Audible independently -
| that would be a very rewarding experience.
| owenversteeg wrote:
| Hi Owen, I'm also Owen :)
|
| My grandmother went blind in her old age. She is pretty
| intelligent and wanted to learn new things so I thought I'd try
| to set up VoiceOver and similar things mentioned in this thread -
| various assisted screen technologies. Unfortunately it was a
| complete failure. I think that for whatever reason, in general
| trying to teach new things to an elderly person who's newly blind
| is an uphill battle. If you don't think he'll be able to hack it
| I wouldn't try, it's somewhat demoralizing to fail at something
| at any age. My grandmother dealt well with it but it was clearly
| somewhat upsetting to fail to learn something, especially as she
| was proud of learning other things quickly throughout her life
| (for example learning to drive, where she passed her test the
| first try with minimal prior instruction.) If you do think he has
| a decent chance at learning it I would start slow and build your
| way up.
|
| What _did_ work was Siri, an audiobook player, and a Google Home
| connected to speakers. The one she uses most of the time is the
| audiobook player, it 's a large chunky machine that takes CDs
| that she gets in the mail. Every so often she gets a menu of new
| available audiobooks and someone sits down with her to pick out
| which she'd like. The next most used is Siri on her iPhone. I set
| up her contacts with various easy-to-say names and now she can
| call whoever she needs whenever. She uses Siri 95% just to call
| people, the other 5% she occasionally does look something up or
| ask the weather but it's mostly just calls. The least used is the
| Google Home, which she uses to play classical music through the
| speakers.
|
| One thing that's not technology related is that being blind is
| lonely. The biggest thing that helps with this is regular small
| interactions. Any way you can facilitate more short visits is
| good, for example with the mailman, neighbors stopping by,
| family, et cetera. Even short phone calls help. The best are the
| visits that happen "automatically" so they don't slow over time.
| For example if you plan a phone call once a week to pick out some
| new audiobooks or podcasts to put on his device of choice.
|
| Good luck!
| wkjagt wrote:
| It's a really rough experience. I saw my grandfather go through
| something similar 9 years ago. I built him an audio book reader
| and it made a big difference for him. The problem was that he had
| never been into technology, so getting him a smartphone at that
| time would have meant a way too steep learning curve. I wanted to
| make him something that had almost no learning curve. He had a
| small percentage of his vision left, so I could use that.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8177117
| amelius wrote:
| Is there AI that does continuous camera to spoken description?
| hellotheretoday wrote:
| If he lives in the United States see if your state has a
| coalition of the blind. If you contact them for services and make
| it clear you are not looking for financial support but help with
| activities of daily living they may quickly help you with many
| things including this. If he does need financial support that is
| fine but be aware that might put him on a waiting list whereas if
| he has adequate income from social security/pension/401k/etc that
| makes the whole process significantly easier (usually, this
| likely varies wildly by state tbf)
|
| Advice in this thread will be helpful but a person who can come
| to his home on a semi regular basis to help continually train
| will be far more beneficial. Additionally they can assist with a
| broader range of tasks like caning, adaptive equipment for meal
| prep, braille instruction, etc.
| Havoc wrote:
| As a side note - people ask whether AI is the new crypto
| (implying fad)
|
| This is a prime example as to why it is not. High quality voice
| interfaces are a life changing revolution for people like this.
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(page generated 2023-11-24 23:00 UTC)