[HN Gopher] The key to mother and child well-being may be many c... ___________________________________________________________________ The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers Author : stareatgoats Score : 146 points Date : 2023-11-26 11:44 UTC (11 hours ago) (HTM) web link (phys.org) (TXT) w3m dump (phys.org) | mandmandam wrote: | As much as I welcome more actual science on this topic, I don't | think the words 'new key' are at all justified here (and they | aren't used in tfa). | | New to some WEIRD nuclear families maybe, but not actually new or | surprising. | myspy wrote: | What's a weird nuclear family? | | That's the mode of operation. Without grand parents it gets | harder. Single parents have it the hardest. | | Relationships to neighbors are not that deep. | dave4420 wrote: | WEIRD = Western Educated Industrialised Rich Democratic | lettergram wrote: | Imo it's a derogatory term people in ... alternative | circles, like to use. | ithkuil wrote: | Is "alternative circles" also a derogatory term? | | I | brvsft wrote: | I'm guessing the term is supposed to point out the idea | that what we think of as normal is actually not. | lettergram wrote: | Except it is normal to have a nuclear family? | | https://www.un.org/en/development/desa/population/publica | tio... | | It's actually more common in the rest of the world than | Europe and the US. It's kind of crazy to say it's WEIRD | to expect nuclear families, when it's the west that is | the least likely (still the majority have nuclear | families). | dave4420 wrote: | It was invented by Western psychologists upon discovering | that the results of their experiments on Western | psychology students did not, after all, generalise to | results that were applicable to all humans. | | If you're hanging round in circles that use it as a | derogatory term, you're hanging round in the wrong | circles. | stareatgoats wrote: | The title had to be shortened - 'new' was the best I could | think of. But it can be justified I think, both in relation to | the gist of the article and the original title. If this was | well established knowledge that that is new to me at least, | albeit not really surprising, admittedly. | | (tfa? I couldn't get a hit on that acronym anywhere) | closewith wrote: | TFA is "the fucking article". | csa wrote: | > (tfa? I couldn't get a hit on that acronym anywhere) | | "the fucking article" | | I recommend using urban dictionary if a generic search | doesn't yield a result that makes any sense. | stareatgoats wrote: | ah, thanks. Did try UD but it didn't show up for me on the | first nor second page. | | edit: seems I missed the top entry! | csa wrote: | Interesting. First result for me. | | I wonder if they adjust search results by geo. | MandieD wrote: | The (Fine|Friendly|F-ing) Article | RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: | > When considering the implications for Western countries, the | authors highlight that the provision of affordable high-quality | childcare support, which goes beyond effective supervision, | should be prioritized. | | > Ratios of caregivers to children were greater than five-to-one | in the observed hunter-gatherer groups, whereas in UK nurseries | each adult is responsible for numerous children. | | There is now way you can pay for these kind of ratios. These | ratios can only happen due to a social structure that involves | large extended families and a social structure that has a large | proportion of the population (pretty much all the females) that | spend all their time with each other and the children. | | However, that would be a huge step backwards from the progress we | have made in women's rights and equality. | micromacrofoot wrote: | Why does it have to be all women? | EGreg wrote: | Exactly the right question. | | People make all kinds of assumptions and thanks to the | corporate world, both sexes now slave away for the market: | https://magarshak.com/blog/?p=286 | | I wrote that in 2017 and it's only gotten worse since then | lotsofpulp wrote: | People could accept lower living standards and opt for | single income families. | | However, people like to compete, for purposes of fulfilling | their own ego and attracting a mate. That is why higher | income individuals attract other higher income individuals. | | Corporations did not make people competitive. People want | financial freedom, people want to buy goods and services, | and people want to attract a partner per their liking. | EGreg wrote: | Corporations, just like governments, engage in pervasive | propaganda, from impressionable school years all the way | to adulthood. Edward Burnays said propaganda got a bad | name after WW1, so they renamed it to "PR". | | It's how corporations got women to smoke, too: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torches_of_Freedom | | How they control the crowd, featuring Edward Burnays and | his uncle Freud (whose theories became famous ironically | because of his nephew): | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnPmg0R1M04 | | How the corporate world market to kids: | https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/ | | They marketed it to Black youth: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BjKyVzRr_U | | They marketed it to teen girls: https://www.washingtonpos | t.com/education/2023/03/30/social-m... | | Sometimes the mask comes off and they do it too openly: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNzXze5Yza8 | | The for-profit model of news corporations and social | networks has led more and more adults to become | perpetually angry and tribal politically: | https://www.laweekly.com/restoring-healthy-communities/ | | There is even a term for what they resort to in order to | please shareholders: surveillance capitalism: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveillance_capitalism | | I was at the event in NYC when Sheryl Sandberg unveiled | her book, "Lean In": https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Women- | Work-Will-Lead/dp/03853499... | | Make no mistake. YCombinator and shareholder capitalism | leads to this inevitably. Corporations have to please | shareholders forever. And there is more and more push for | inclusivity and part of that means adapting people from | traditional roles (e.g. women homemakers) into types of | work that benefit the market. As both sexes flooded the | labor pool, wages got depressed, and marriage declined. | People are distracted into being e.g. gender warriors | (Red Pill vs Feminism) rather than realizing they are all | being exploited by a for-profit capitalist system that | gradually relegates them to gig-economy workers and | depresses their wages as they get replaced by AI. It's | like a slowly-boiled frog. | | Anyone can opt out if they want. Opt out of the over- | diagnosis of ADHD for their kids in public schools, by | spending more time with them. Opt out of single | parenthood and nuclear families, creating something far | more expansive and with the benefits of traditional | societies. Health benefits abound. Kids aren't | overmedicated by amphetamines. Teens aren't depressed due | to tiktok or angry due to drill music. Middle aged women | aren't on antideprssants. Men aren't on opiates. Elderly | parents aren't in nursing homes being drugged up. I'm not | saying it's a utopia but the capitalist system has gone | in a very bad direction, arguably worse than USSR where | people drank vodka to cope. | | Look at any traditional society even within the US, such | as the Amish, or religious orthodox Jews, or Christians | in small-town America who still get together for Church | etc. You don't have to be religious to make it work. But | it takes a village to raise a child, and today's children | are raised by government schools and indoctrinated to be | corporate drones, for a job market that will be gone by | the time they graduate. I recommend phasing in a UBI, at | least, to help save the increasingly under-employed (i.e. | making too few $s) people and families from falling | through the cracks even further. The best kind of UBI can | be done on a community level, for newlyweds and new | parents etc. | lotsofpulp wrote: | > As both sexes flooded the labor pool, wages got | depressed, and marriage declined. | | Corporations did not force both sexes to flood the labor | pool. Women wanted (and fought) to gain the ability to be | paid. To reduce their struggle and achievement as a | "corporate conspiracy" is an insult. | | Might businesses influence people's decisions with | marketing? Sure. But that is not why people yearn to be | financially independent. People want to be financially | independent so they can live life how they want to live | it, and marry or date who they want to be with, and so on | and so forth. | EGreg wrote: | Insult or not, well-meaning movements are often hijacked | and co-opted by corporations and governments. Women's lib | is just one example. | | People are often not given a choice, individually or even | collectively. For example when Crimea overwhelmingly | (94%) voted in 1991 to be independent of Ukraine, no one | honored it. Then 6 months later they voted 54% for | Ukraine to be independent of USSR, and that was taken as | them wanting to be part of Ukraine. Then in 2014, the | only choices given were be part of Ukraine, or be part of | Russia. They never again got to vote for independence in | a referendum, as Montenegro or Kosovo did. Kurds and | Catalonians voted for independence in 2017, but none of | that was honored. Uyghurs, Rohingya, Palestinians and | many others are stateless. In short, people are usually | just kicked around by whatever system the governments set | up. And similarly with corporations, though it's more | voluntary, it's still a system. As a young woman, to | declare that you aspire to be a mother and homemaker, is | something of an oddity and peer pressure is strong at | formative young years. I wouldn't say most young people | are really making "their own choices" statistically | speaking, and in any case, the choices society has | collectively made has led people psychologically to be | more miserable across the board, and we are using | medication as a way to treat the symptoms. | | I could be wrong. Perhaps today's women are actually | happier than their grandmothers ever were. But it doesn't | seem to be borne out in the data. And I think it has to | do with the labor market. | | https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/documents/pdf/In | tel... | | https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/may/18/wome | ns-... | | I should say that the USSR has enfranchised women much | earlier than USA, and given them equal rights to jobs | much earlier. It's hard to me to gauge whether people | there were happier by the 1990s (fall of USSR) than | people in USA are today (we may be reaching a breaking | point here as well). | seec wrote: | All of this is pretty obvious to anyone that takes some | time to actually observe what is going on. But we are | currently under a very strong political ideology that has | replaced what was previously called a religion. You can't | say those things and nobody will agree publicly (even if | they think alike) until the whole thing falls appart... | | To be honest it won't take much longer, because this | system by itself creates poisonous inter sex competition | that ensure a very low level of reproduction. The numbers | are already in. So, either it gets replaced by | alternative ways of organizing society (it's already | somewhat happening in some places, the problem is the | alternatives are a lot less nice) or some spark ignites a | revolt that brings back some balance. | | But from where I stand it's probably over already. Nobody | seems to question having both sex/parents working (and | often competing for the same job!) and women definitely | do not want to take the breadwinner role after somewhat | refusing the homemaker role. But that's very consistent | with reality of interacting with women. In my opinion any | society that start to listen to the infinite demands of | women is doomed to failure. I don't have much to bet but | so far, I'm winning... | watwut wrote: | The high levels of marriages were to large extend result | of "women can't eally survive without a marriage, they | need man to eat" and following "therefore single me are | pressured into marriage cause someone needs to pay for | them". | | Not all of that was free choice. | PeterisP wrote: | Competition is not opt-in, especially when it's about | scarce but required resources such as housing. | | When the majority of households in the market became dual | income, every single income family inevitably had to | compete with them for housing as the prices for that have | gone up to what the dual income families can afford to | pay - and with that being a so large portion of most | people's expenses, simply accepting 1950s (for example) | living standards won't be sufficient to for a single | income family to afford renting or buying a home in that | city. | Qem wrote: | The whole pedophilia scare makes people suspicious by default | of adult men in contact with non related small children. | There's a great movie I recommend on that problem, The Hunt | (2012): https://m.imdb.com/title/tt2106476/ | pharmakom wrote: | The vast majority of child abusers are male and known to | the child and family (not strangers), so there is some | evidence behind the bias, I suppose. | falserum wrote: | All stereotypes grow from a kernel of some truth. Lets | calculate. | | - 80-90% of child abusers are male. (Lets use 90% further | on). | | - Us population is 330 million. (So half will be 165m | male). | | - It has 750 thousand registered sex offenders | | Calculations: | | - 750t * 0.9 = 675t male offenders; 675t / 165000t = 0.4% | of male population in us are registered sex offenders. (1 | out of 243 males). | | - 750t * 0.1 = 75t female offenders; 75t / 165000t = | 0.045% (1 out of 2200 females) | | Caveats apply: not all are caught; these numbers are for | all sex offender (I think it includes adult rapists and | public urinators); distribution through society is not | uniform, some occupations will be more "lucrative" for | phedos. | ajmurmann wrote: | The numbers are even worse when removing young boys. | morsch wrote: | >> Ratios of caregivers to children were greater than five-to- | one in the observed hunter-gatherer groups, whereas in UK | nurseries each adult is responsible for numerous children. | | > There is now way you can pay for these kind of ratios. | | As it turns out, 5:1 is the legal limit for pre-k (age < 3) | daycares in most of Germany, and the average in 2020 was 4.1:1. | For older kindergarten kids, it's roughly double. | | https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betreuungsschl%C3%BCssel | | The government seemingly pays about 40 billion EUR per year for | pre-school childcare; participating parents, depending on their | income, pay up to around 250 EUR a month (+50-100 EUR a month | for meals). All of these figures are very rough, but should be | in the right ballpark. | RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: | The ratios you mentioned are 1 caregiver for 5 children. | | The ratios in the article for the societies they studied are | 5 caregivers for 1 child. | morsch wrote: | Wow, okay, that hadn't even crossed my mind. I see your | point, then. | lotsofpulp wrote: | Note that the 5 caregivers per 1 child also contains a | chain of older children, each looking after one another. | | You take those 5 kids, and put them in school from ages 5 | to 22 or even 26, obviously, there is going to be a | dearth of labor supply. | | The gain is those older kids in school gain financial | freedom (especially the girls) rather than having to take | care of younger kids. But the cost is still coming into | view (not that it isn't worth it, but we are in for big | changes). | cycomanic wrote: | I find that part of the article and the parallels drawn to | nurseries in the UK (by one of the researchers apparently) | quite weird. My understanding is that what is denoted caregiver | in the article is quite different to a careperson in a nursery. | | I don't think that a caregiver in the hunter gatherer society | will exclusively watch one child only (and not all the time). I | suspect more that they are available if needed. | | If we look at the scientific article, it studied 18 children | across 3 camps and the camps of 20-80 individuals. The article | says children had often 10-20 caregivers, based on the 18 | children that's a minimum of 180 adults. Assuming an average | camp size of 50 that would mean more adults than living in the | 3 camps. | | So clearly caregivers are not exclusive which makes the whole | comparison to child to adult ratio completely non-sensical IMO | and I'm quite disappointed that researcher was tempted to make | a comment in this way (to be fair, often journalists try to | pull out a political angle in stories, in our communication | training as researchers we were actually warned to be vary of | this). | Eumenes wrote: | > "For more than 95% of our evolutionary history we lived as | hunter-gatherers. Therefore, contemporary hunter-gatherer | societies can offer clues as to whether there are certain child- | rearing systems to which infants, and their mothers, may be | psychologically adapted," | | You can cherry pick anything that fits a narrative. This | narrative advocates for more funding for state sponsored daycare, | which does not resemble anything close to the 'caregiving' that | was going on in hunter-gatherer communities. | | I bet 95% of our evolutionary history also involved bashing in | skulls over arguments regarding food or resources, mass rape, | living in caves, and not wearing clothes. Should we return to | that too? The difference between those things and the example | given in the article? Fortune 500 companies don't get more | workers. Big corporations can pass the buck to taxpayers to fund | childcare. Naive activists will promote this in the vein of | 'womens rights' as if dumping your kid at a state sponsored | daycare is empowering or something. | Podgajski wrote: | It could also be used to do away with the capitalist system for | more anarchistic one and instead rely on community rather than | on the state. | | In any case it all points to the fact that the way our society | is set up, is creating a lack of well-being among humanity. | robwwilliams wrote: | Disagree with your last statement. We can each look back on | our own childhoods and make a local and biased assessment. I | loved my childhood and all of the experiences. I thank both | the modern American social structure and my parents. Could it | have been improved. Well sure, probably--but that is not an | experiment I can run. | robwwilliams wrote: | Interesting work but yes, trying to extrapolate to best courses | of action for child care in technologically advanced cultures | should not be the focus of the discussion. | | Almost every epoch and population will have common and | idiosyncratic features. Why not look back on child care 25, 50, | 100, 200, 300, or 3000 years ago in any group/deme of humans? | The variability will be striking even within any one population | and will depend in large part on class structure, rank, and | mean family size. Patterns of raising children will be all over | physical, social, and behavioral maps. | | The groups studied here are primarily forest-dwelling hunter- | gatherers in the western Congo region---what used to be | referred to as Pygmy populations | (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy_peoples). | | Fascinating topic but not of much policy relevance. | saiya-jin wrote: | You realize that off-loading overwhelmed parents even a bit is | already a massive step in positive direction for literally | everybody including companies and taxman, and kindergartens can | help a lot. | | You can be much happier and better parent when rested rather | than being semi-constantly on the verge of breakdown. Who | hasn't walked this valley with at least 2 kids can't really | comprehend the topic appropriately. Apart maybe of those | suffering long term insomnia combined with some serious | stressors in their lives. | seec wrote: | That would also be true if every family had a parent that | mostly had free time. Then you just need to know more than | one family in the world et voila! | | It would cost way less money to everyone, while allowing more | diversity and more actual ressource to be used for the child | instead of stupid bureaucracy... | | But it looks like you are deep into communist propaganda, as | if a third-party institution run by a government would be | empowering anything instead of completely destroying | everything, including the society it stands on... | hasoleju wrote: | > childcare needs to give parents an actual break. | | In my experience caring for your small children is really | demanding work. On the one hand you need to be focused on the | situation in order to protect the children and on the other hand | there is not much going on for entertaining yourself. | | Creative or focused deep work where you get a positive feeling of | accomplishment also counts as a break from childcare for me. So a | break does not necessarily mean not working. But I believe there | are a lot of demanding jobs that are not a break from childcare. | | The other aspect I can relate to is the fact that in hunter- | gatherer communities many different caregivers support each | other. Every summer we travel in the mountains with 3-4 other | families and their kids. Last year there where 12 kids under the | age of 8. Sounds very stressful but actually it was really | smooth. Having multiple parents available all the time allowed | everyone to take a real break once in a while. And also the | children enjoyed having multiple different adults they could | interact with apart from their parents. | | So I really think this concept works, but only if you all live | under the same roof. Which in practice is only possible during | holidays. | manmal wrote: | In our Montessori school, parents do pick up other kids | occasionally, and the kids would just stay with the family for | the afternoon. Ideally, kids take turns so sometimes parents | get an afternoon off. | | Another thing that sometimes works (lots of preconditions) - | living in walking distance of grandparents or siblings, and let | the kids visit family frequently. | lotsofpulp wrote: | > Another thing that sometimes works (lots of preconditions) | - living in walking distance of grandparents or siblings, and | let the kids visit family frequently. | | If you are not sufficiently rich such that you can afford | personal services such as live in nannies and flights to | visit family and whatnot, I find that living walking distance | to close family is one of the biggest quality of life | upgrades one could make (obviously assuming you get along | with them). | | The redundancies it provides makes for much less stressful | living, along with many other benefits. | ryanjshaw wrote: | > living walking distance to close family is one of the | biggest quality of life upgrades one could make | | And yet those with the power to change this situation | choose not to. We have to work in office buildings located | in expensive commercial districts with small | homes/accomodation and no real community, or spend hours | commuting each week if we want to live in the suburbs. | | After a few decades we earn enough money to escape and | retire to a small town with greater space and more | community, but our now adult children are forced to trek | back to the big city to earn a living. | | The grandchildren get to see granny and grandpa a few times | a year, if they're lucky. One of the few developments | improving this situation, remote work, is sadly considered | a privilege. | xapata wrote: | If there weren't so many cars and the associated danger, | it'd be easier to use public spaces and not feel like | your "small" apartment is cramped. | | I bought a house and miss my 2-bedroom apartment. Enough | that my wife and I are considering moving back into an | apartment and renting out our house. | ajmurmann wrote: | It doesn't help either that outdated fire codes pretty | much dictate apartments in the US to follow the double- | loaded hallway pattern which makes apartments less | pleasant and makes it hard to build ones that are | pleasant for families. | https://www.niskanencenter.org/how-to-build-more-family- | size... | WarOnPrivacy wrote: | > If you are not sufficiently rich such that you can afford | personal services such as live in nannies and flights to | visit family and whatnot, I find that living walking | distance to close family is one of the biggest quality of | life upgrades one could make | | Being able to choose housing with that level of granularity | still requires wealth that exceeds most incomes. For most, | just finding housing without lots of significant negative | impacts - this is about the edge of possibility. For even | that minimal outcome, the odds aren't terrific. | sklargh wrote: | This is a very high quality comment and I suspect will capture | many parents' feelings. Something that shocks me, even as an | experienced parent, in caring for two small children is how | physically and mentally tired I am at the end of the day | without having done anything particularly challenging. The | level of alertness required to track and monitor several mobile | toddlers is quite draining. | | Actual mental rest can be quite hard to come by and the need to | get parents breaks that are not simply "being at work," is | real. I often get to the end of the day, particularly on | weekends, and I realize that I have maybe an hour of downtime | to eat and get to bed to achieve a reasonable amount of sleep. | detourdog wrote: | The only thing I would like to add to this thinking is that it | also explains cultural norms. If a child is getting input from | that many different adults it becomes an averaging of the | culture norms. | WarOnPrivacy wrote: | > If a child is getting input from that many different adults | it becomes an averaging of the culture norms. | | More directly, it greatly softens the inevitable blows from | highly-concentrated, inexperienced parenting. | croo wrote: | I would also add that by the time of becoming a parent | every girl was already familiar with most of the chores and | tasks of raising a child and most likely familiar with | giving birth because no one went away to hospital to give | birth - it happened at home. | bloopernova wrote: | The child situation in that group vacation sounds like the | shared child raising in a Kibbutz: | | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz | scruple wrote: | I'm already hearing the comments on Monday, people asking me | how my "break" was, since I took off all of last week (I mean, | I had to since the preschool our twins attend and the daycare | our singleton attends were closed). Work is typically a break | from what happens in the home, but when things at work are | stressful it feels like coming out of the frying pan and into | the fire. | | We also have a similar experience, where adding families (with | kids) is greatly beneficial for everyone, but the folks who | have kids that we are truly good friends with live far away. | Nearby we have playdates and dinners with other families but I | wouldn't want to cohabit with them, not even for an overnight | stay. So we also only get the holidays or special occasions | with other families and then we can finally get a break. | hattmall wrote: | In a very similar situation too, but add in that both sets of | grandparents have one with Alzheimers so instead of extra | care givers we actually have even more work with having to | actively baby sit parents. Holidays are pretty stressful and | this year we threw a nice thanksgiving stomach bug into the | mix! | Aurornis wrote: | > In my experience caring for your small children is really | demanding work. On the one hand you need to be focused on the | situation in order to protect the children | | I expected this going into having children, but I was surprised | at how much I actually enjoyed it. Yes, it's more active work | than sitting in front of a computer, but for me personally I've | found it much less demanding than my jobs. | | > and on the other hand there is not much going on for | entertaining yourself. | | Honestly, I don't identify with this either. At least not since | my children were more than 6-7 months old. Playing with kids is | a lot of fun once you get into it. We go on a lot of adventures | around the neighborhood and beyond where everything is new and | exciting to them. It's like they've re-opened the wonder of the | world for me. | | On the other hand, I have some friends who struggle with | parenting because they approach it more as babysitting than as | quality time with their kids. For them, it's just a matter of | passing time until they can go do something else. That's a | minority of my friends, though. | watwut wrote: | > go on a lot of adventures around the neighborhood and | beyond where everything is new and exciting to them. | | I mean, first time and second time. But when they get excited | 55th time over exactly same hedgehog, it just was not so | exciting to me anymore. | underlipton wrote: | A saying most black Americans will be familiar with is, "It | takes a village to raise a child." It resembles proverbs common | to cultures across Africa; one could say that it's cultural | knowledge embedded deeply within the African diaspora. American | black culture is often derided as being inadequate, | particularly in efforts to raise well-adjusted and pro-social | children, but what's rarely mentioned by these commenters is | how frequent and widespread are the historical and contemporary | destruction and dissolution of black communities in America. In | the too-common case of single mothers rearing children alone | (the absence of the father often itself a product of poor | social support), the difference seems to be in the presence or | absence of older siblings, grandparents, aunts, uncles, and | supportive teachers, especially when the mother is forced to | work multiple jobs in order to cover ever-increasing expenses. | (It should also be noted that when the father _is_ present, | married or not, he tends to spend more time with his children | than fathers of other ethnicities.) | | I bring this up in order to maybe open some minds as to why we | see racial disparities of certain types - and also because, as | mentioned by another commenter, the increasing atomization of | families and communities of other ethnic groups threatens to | replicate the aforementioned dysfunction. Common and widespread | understanding of the dynamic could head-off tragedy; they hit | us with crack before they hit y'all with opioids, after all. | nanis wrote: | A much more logical inference would have suggested that being | surrounded with other individuals with familial ties is | important, not others who are only there purely based on | financial motives. | stareatgoats wrote: | We can only move forward, not backward. The hunter-gatherer | existence is often endowed with some notion of pristine, peaceful | existence in harmony with nature, which is likely far from the | actual truth. That said, I for one find many aspects (but not | all!) of the present situation unsatisfactory, where the needs of | macroeconomy and national priorities supersedes many of our most | basic needs as humans. | | This article _could_ indicate how one of those needs are | currently neglected, and point to the need for more grownups to | spend more time with their children (and other children) than | currently is possible. | treespace8 wrote: | With all the massive life improvements we have with technology | we could be investing so much more into our kids. Jobs could be | flexible with short work weeks, and we could use that time to | invest in kids. Parent, volunteer, mentor. Remote work done on | a school site giving even more time to help kids learn. | paulryanrogers wrote: | Having worked remote most of my kids' lives, I'd say there | are other challenges. Parents need time away from their kids | too, and if every parent in society is working then how are | kids supposed to get the adult attention _and_ allow the | parents some child-free time? | | When I was younger kids played with others in the | neighborhood, and there was always a homemaker parent in | every household. Now every adult has at least a part-time | job. Kids still play in the neighborhood, yet weekly instead | of daily. More often they are in daycare, school, or staying | home. | treespace09 wrote: | I'm thinking about everyone being more involved with kids. | Not just parents of young children. | toomuchtodo wrote: | Lots of folks don't want kids or to be involved with them | too, another important consideration. | em-bee wrote: | those that do not want to be involved with kids would | obviously not choose to participate in such an | environment, so they are out of the picture. | toomuchtodo wrote: | Has to be explicitly said, lots of folks expect a village | without asking if the village consented towards the | effort (n=1). Managing and openly communicating | expectations derisks disappointment and suboptimal | outcomes. | throwaway22032 wrote: | Not wanting to be a parent is one thing, but people who | don't want to be involved with kids need to work on | themselves, that's a deeply antisocial trait - your own | existence depended on everyone around you being involved | with you to some degree. | toomuchtodo wrote: | That is an opinion, not a fact. Freedom of association | and to be happy can include not interacting with children | you choose not to, and optimizing for happiness is | important (versus a social contract requiring otherwise). | No one will optimize for your own happiness besides you. | | I have kids, but fully respect people who don't care for | or want to avoid time and interaction with kids. I | respect their boundaries, that is what I advocate for | here. | | I've had over a decade of therapy, so I'm fairly | confident in my position on the topic. | em-bee wrote: | it is one thing to ask someone who doesn't want to deal | with kids for help taking care of them, but quite another | to expect them to tolerate kids and behave in a manner | that gives the kids space they need. (like not smoking | near kids, etc) | | in a city i can't choose my neighbors, but some neighbors | don't like kids and will complain if they are to noisy | because they are playing soccer in the yard, to the point | that they force the building management to disallow it, | which then takes a lawsuit from the parents to remove | that rule because such a rule is in fact illegal since | kids playing is natural had has to be tolerated. | | if someone feels that kids playing infringes their | boundaries then they do need an attitude adjustment. | toomuchtodo wrote: | Agreed. Kids need the space to develop as you mentioned, | and it's somewhat trivial to determine where to live to | avoid children using granular census and school | availability data if desired. | em-bee wrote: | _it's somewhat trivial to determine where to live to | avoid children_ | | given the discussions of how much more housing most | cities need, i actually think this is not trivial at all. | not wanting to live near children pretty much comes down | to not living near people. | em-bee wrote: | _how are kids supposed to get the adult attention and allow | the parents some child-free time_ | | not everyone is going to work all the time. obviously | someone has to be available for the kids but not all the | time either. the point is that life improvements, | technology and flexibility makes this more easy. | kaskakokos wrote: | I look at it from this perspective, we have been hunting- | gathering for 95% of our time on earth, it may be the case that | from our bubble we think we are "more advanced", but if we | think about the test of time, we have not yet passed, and call | me crazy, but it seems that this "advancement" of ours does not | hold up for long at this level. | | Today we know that many "non-advanced" cultures, aware of the | limits of growth, limited the consumption of resources in many | imaginative ways. | | It is ok to say, hey you did this better than me. | danr4 wrote: | I look at if from a logical lens rather than a romantic one. | Modern lifestyle outpaced our human evolution. | conception wrote: | The book Hunt, Gather, Parent touches on this a bit. It takes 3-4 | humans, not necessarily adults but cousins and whatnot, to take | care of a child. Two? 6-8. Since western societies broke up tight | knit communities, the support system for this in the west has | been lacking and jerry rigged with tired parents and nannies etc | ever since. | | The reason for the breakup is fun - | https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/11/roman-catholi... | lotsofpulp wrote: | Interesting hypothesis, but I don't know if I buy it. | | Much of India had also long barred cousin marriages, probably | long before the Roman Catholic Church, but the dependencies and | village raising the kids dynamic still existed (until | recently). | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapinda | | If I were to guess, the main causal factor is economic/security | independence. If living in a tight knit village, sacrificing | your freedoms is the best option you have, then that is what | most people choose. If there exists an option for you retain | your freedom and have financial independence and physical | security, then people tend to choose that (e.g. getting an | education and a well paying job, etc). | | The latter basically destroys any chance of "village raising a | child", because no village bonds will exist, since everyone is | moving around for their economic opportunities. | em-bee wrote: | _If living in a tight knit village, sacrificing your freedoms | is the best option you have, then that is what most people | choose. If there exists an option for you retain your freedom | and have financial independence and physical security, then | people tend to choose that_ | | you make it sound like these are opposing incompatible | choices. why not choose both? i'd love to live in a small | tight knit community. going to school and getting a good | education does not prevent that. and with more options to | work from home it is now even more possible than it was in | the past. | | also, people didn't move because they wanted to gain | independence. they are forced to move because they can't find | work at home. in europe the majority of people live where | they grow up and do not move far from there, unless lack of | local jobs forces them to. which is one reason why big cities | are popular and growing because jobs are there, and it is | more likely that future generations will have jobs there too, | so they can stay. | dsign wrote: | This. | | I grew up poor and moved far away from my family to change | it. In the rich land where I now live, most people I've met | could do a little better by moving to another town but they | choose to remain close to their families and their birth | community. With that said, they still have to raise their | children on their own, because it is culturally | inappropriate to ask, accept or (god forbid![^1]) offer | help. | | [^1]: You want to do what with our kids? What are you? A | budding, wanna-be child molester? You never know, the media | says they are everywhere. No sir, and you have upset me so | much that I'll write to my local representative to install | CSAM surveillance in all the phones. | apwell23 wrote: | I am guessing women have low labor force participation | rates in the poor land you moved from ? | em-bee wrote: | i would guess quite the opposite. from what i have seen | in places that i have been to women are doing most of the | work, like selling food at the market while i saw more | men hanging around doing nothing. i guess some of the men | that did work went elsewhere for the better jobs. | apwell23 wrote: | Because they are incompatible choices. You have to live by | the rules of the said small tight knit community. since gp | said indian, in indian communities you _have_ to marry | within the community otherwise you "bring shame" to the | community. This coercion doesn't even have to be explicit | like that it acts on you in insidious ways . | | Its the classic tradeoff between security and freedom. | jl2718 wrote: | > in indian communities you have to marry within the | community | | Is this not evidence for the original point? | zbyforgotp wrote: | I think the analogy to fibers in food is very good (which I | take from Wood o Eden). We now discover all kinds of similar | phenomena. | pfisherman wrote: | The linked article is pretty ridiculous. I am pretty sure it | leaves out a lot of nuance from the underlying work - as these | types of press releases normally do - but there is a bunch of | stuff in there that just does not make sense. | | First the taboo against consanguineous marriages was most | likely because of genetic diseases. Biology may not have been | very advanced, but people were smart enough to pick up on | patterns. Similar to taboos against cannibalism despite having | no concept of prion disease. | | If this was pushed by the catholic church then explain Italian | families! | | Is "the hero's journey" not a story about rugged individualism | that has been told over and over in different forms across | cultures since the beginning of history? | watwut wrote: | > Is "the hero's journey" not a story about rugged | individualism that has been told over and over in different | forms across cultures since the beginning of history? | | I don't think so. The heros journey does not need to be about | "rugged individualism" at all. Not is about it all across | cultures and history. | | We like stories about rugged individualism. We prefer them. | And oftentimes, we change original stories fro. other culture | to fit the patterns we like or ignore those that don't fit | them. | | And also, across cultures and history, the hero journey is | far from the only or even primary kind of story. | ClumsyPilot wrote: | > Is "the hero's journey" not a story about rugged | individualism that has been told over and over in different | forms across cultures since the beginning of history? | | I dont thi k thats true at all - | | Lets see, oldest stories - buddhism, hiduism - none of them | are about individualism. | | I wouldn't say the christian writing or that of ancient Egypt | is about individualism either. | | The oldest 'hero's journey' I can think of, would be myths of | ancient greece - but ewually, many of them are not heroic, | they are dramas. | | The dominance of this genre is a compeltely modern phenomena | jseliger wrote: | So does _The Anthropology of Childhood_ , which is a fun book: | https://jakeseliger.com/2015/02/10/the-anthropology-of- | child.... | concordDance wrote: | The main reason for the break up is the movement of people. | Into cities for economic reasons or off to university. | Merrill wrote: | Is this generally true of hunter gatherer societies, especially | those in temperate or arctic climates? | | Most of our ancestors have been living in agricultural villages | or pastoral camps for the last 50 or more generations, which is | long enough to evolve adaptation to that lifestyle. Admittedly, | urbanization is a quite recent and abnormal lifestyle. | MichaelRo wrote: | That's an interesting observation. Studying "childcare" | probably shouldn't focus as much on the difference between | "city lifestyle" and "untouched by civilization" like whatever | hunter-gatherer remains but between city and, God giveth, the | still overly abundant (if not statistically the majority?) | rural dwellers. | | Where kids still spend most of their time around their parents, | help with house chores, attend the garden and the animals etc. | ajmurmann wrote: | Do we have to go that far back? Multi-generational living was | much more common, in cities as well, just a few decades ago and | made all this much easier. | svnt wrote: | The technical term for this is alloparenting, and it should be | more well known outside anthropology. It has been extensively | studied and I cannot find very much unique about this study, | except perhaps the involvement of a child psychologist. | | If it helps get the word out I'm all for it, though. | | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alloparenting | | https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,44&qsp=1&q... | kakaz wrote: | After a years of work, petabytes of data analysis and centuries | of case study we know finally what's good for children care: a | real family consist of mother, father, grandparents, siblings and | friendly neighbors. It will be forgotten gieeber5as unimportant, | mainly because AI hype does not follow such boring science... | getpost wrote: | > the researchers say that children may be "evolutionarily | primed" to expect exceptionally high levels of physical contact | and care, | | What strikes me here is the phrase, "exceptionally high levels." | I imagine children need a "normal" level of care; it's only | "exceptionally high" in comparison to the deprived state of | family systems in these degenerate times. | | I often reflect on the understanding in Attachment Theory, | wherein a child a needs to have a caregiver who is sufficiently | attuned to the child's needs. And it turns out, "sufficiently | attuned" means that the caregiver responds in an attuned manner | to 30%-50% the child's entreaties. As one of my meditation | teachers says, 'That's not a high bar. What grade did you get the | last time you scored 50% on a test?' | watwut wrote: | Given that we actually give kids massive amount of attention | compared to historical standards ... calling current situation | "degenerate" is absurd. Also considering that by many | statistics, children do better then they used to just a few | decades ago. | elmomle wrote: | For some definitions of attention, yes, but not necessarily | historically massive amounts of physical contact and (non | -neurotic) care. | | Think of the images from the world over of indigenous women | going about their days largely with their young children | strapped to them. | WarOnPrivacy wrote: | > Think of the images from the world over of indigenous | women going about their days largely with their young | children strapped to them. | | Until they can walk at which point they are increasingly | gone to do the vital growing that happens away from adults. | cplusplusfellow wrote: | This is not advocacy for replicating indigenous societies | parental habits, but perhaps a key is hyper-focused for | 2-3 years and then a steeper dropoff on the hand-holding | (literally and figuratively). | watwut wrote: | They have another child in 18 months. This one is then | unstrapped and you don't see it on the pic. Nor you see | even older siblings. And those women work with infant | strapped cause they have to, they can't stop working once | the kid is toddler. | | And by the time they are 5 they play alone unsupervised. | Which was even the same in villages in Europe even after | WWII. My grandma was herding goats with pack of kids at 5 | and remember it as normal. School started at 6. | WarOnPrivacy wrote: | > Given that we actually give kids massive amount of | attention compared to historical standards ... calling | current situation "degenerate" is absurd. | | This seems to assume that ~all attention is positive and that | attention is still beneficial after the Xth hour. After a | time the adult role becomes less parent and more like prison | guard duty. | | It also seems to assume adult-time is enough for kids and | that peer-only time isn't an irreplaceable environment for | kids to develop their core social skills. | watwut wrote: | We also spank them significantly less and yell at them | significantly less (speaking of negative attention). | LegibleCrimson wrote: | Significantly better than some historical standards and | significantly worse than others. We aren't doing the best | that has ever been done across all cultures and history in | this regard, not by far. | dragonwriter wrote: | > Given that we actually give kids massive amount of | attention compared to historical standards ... | | This is literally based on a comparison with hunger-gatherer | societies. | | To the extent that there is any accuracy to your "compared to | historical standards", its probably based on a low point | reached (in the "developed" world) somewhere between the | first industrial revolution and mid-20th century, | Erratic6576 wrote: | Primitive hunter-gatherer societies might have raised their | children in a communal way, with relatives and friends | living nearby, always interrupting and nagging us. | | We, the supreme civilisation, at the summit of evolution, | are locked in in individual cages, disconnected from each | other, so we can spend more quality time attached to our | screens. | | We are "civilised to death" | amelius wrote: | Maybe in comparison to other species? | 11235813213455 wrote: | I think it's not really about responding to 100% of a child | demands, it's maybe even detrimental, and probably better to | start teaching him patience, and let him learn what to do in | boredom. But the other part is having long and meaningful | activities/experiences with a child | rexpop wrote: | We decry "demands" when we should acknowledge "dependencies;" | kids won't properly compile without their needs met. | lifeisstillgood wrote: | Fantastic analogy :-) | pixl97 wrote: | The question here is one of alignment. I child may think "I | need to eat right now" but that doesn't necessarily mean | the "right now" part is correct. | | Open world problems are difficult to define, even the word | 'properly' you use has a vast amount of interpretability as | to what you believe the 'proper' outcome should be. | XorNot wrote: | There is absolutely no parent who's problem is a child | who thinks "I need to eat right now". | Feathercrown wrote: | Compilation error: I don't feel like it | ilrwbwrkhv wrote: | We have brainwashed our western minds to make women leave | their kids in daycare sometimes weeks after being born. | Then we are brainwashed to let kids sleep in a separate | room so that mommy can get a good night's rest and be | productive at work. We need a minimum of 3 years of | maternity leave in our country to being with. It is insane | as one of the best countries in the world we don't let | people have kids naturally. | HenryBemis wrote: | The movie "The Pod Generation" | (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt15768848/) has a theme that | touches what you state. No need to get pregnant, give | birth, stay home with your kid. While in the pod the | fetus can be trained, educated, etc... | ClumsyPilot wrote: | > We need a minimum of 3 years of maternity leave in our | country to being with | | And a year of mandatory evaluation and treatment at a | psycologist for various baggage, complexes and plain | stupidity that will manifest when raising a child. | alex_lav wrote: | You'll note the person you responded to never suggested | responding to 100% of a child's "demands" | Erratic6576 wrote: | I try to teach my baby to be patient when he's hangry, but he | slaps, punches, kicks and bites. | | He doesn't even say "I'm hangry, you incompetent giant". He | demands to be held in arms, he punches, bites and slaps my | face. He did this for the first time when he was around 3 | months old. | | Patience is learnt through many years, specially when the | belly is full. | | Hangry people can turn violent, like most restaurant workers | know. | | As "the whole-brained child" book states, children can not be | reasonable when they are in a tantrum | billti wrote: | > children can not be reasonable when they are in a tantrum | | Are you supposed to grow out of that? I'm 51 and I still | notice this about myself at times! | | (Only half joking here. It is amazing how hard it can be to | snap out of a "sulky mood" after some type of frustration | or disappointment, even when you're aware of it and that | it's doing more harm than good). | alasdair_ wrote: | In the UK, 50% is a c and anything over 70% is an A. | theodric wrote: | "Nobody gets 100%" | kaskakokos wrote: | I think the word "exceptionally" arises when comparing with | other animals, the amount of effort a human child needs from | its parents and family until an advanced age is unprecedented | in other terrestrial companions. | secondcoming wrote: | Indeed, it always a source of surprise to me that human | babies will cry regardless of the situation, whereas the | offspring of other animals seem to have an instinct to remain | quiet while the mother is not about, or there's a perceived | danger. | Guthur wrote: | Well if you come with an assumption we are like the other | animals you are going to make an ass of someone. | HenryBemis wrote: | Well not like ALL animals, since not all animals act the | same way. I don't expect we are like fish, that | (some?many?most?) are abandoned as eggs to make it on our | own, or like sharks that have two wombs and the mama- | shark keeps generating eggs to feed the two stronger | babies (one in each womb). | | I assume that those who "group" us based on similarities | on the behavior and manner we raise our offspring must | have use some logic to the process. | Erratic6576 wrote: | Unlike kittens and superior animals, ape babies are not | meant to be abandoned at any point, under no circumstances. | They are meant to be carried around by their mothers or | substitute relatives, clinging to them, so their sudden | whimsical needs can be catered to immediately, or else you | run the risk of developing an insecure attachment | relationship. | | Google images for "monkey attached mother". | Erratic6576 wrote: | Yeah maybe that's why women live longer in order to help with | the exhausting process of raising their grandchildren [1]. | | We love to take care of babies, regardless of (or maybe | because of) how clingy and dependent they are. | | From an Evolutionary point of view, This relationship between | needy babies and abnegated caregivers might have given rise | to a complementary schimogenesis according to Gregory | Bateson, in which babies might have evolved to be more and | more dependent, because having more and more invested | caregivers produces fitter offspring. | | Parenthood is a self-inflicted sabotage and I cannot | understand how come there are so many parents bearing | children worldwide. | | 1. The Gardener and the Carpenter: Alison Gopnik, Erin | Bennett: 9781536617832 | bnlxbnlx wrote: | Yes, parenthood is intense, both both ways. It intensifies | the highs and the lows. There's more strain and there's | more joy. | | And there's a lot less strain when moving out of nuclear | family structures. It all becomes easier for the children | and the parents. | lumost wrote: | Can you elaborate? Curious how the stress profile differs | in alternative family structures. | ClumsyPilot wrote: | > I cannot understand how come there are so many parents | bearing children worldwide. | | Because the best thing you can do for the world is to raise | children well. If they raise theirs, etc. its a cycle of | good over thousands of years, that will have more positive | impact than anything you could do in your life as an | individual. | ajb wrote: | This is once of the things that remote work/homeworking may | enable, if companies don't succeed in taking it away. If people | can rely on getting remote work, they can arrange their living | situation to improve the rest of their life, instead of for work: | | - young people living in large halls, to improve their dating | prospects | | - groups of friends living close together across job moves, | enabling longer term friendships | | - new parents living in groups to reduce the burden of parenting | bequanna wrote: | Is this a thing? | | Other than one-off communes, I think this is still pretty rare | and I'm not aware of it growing due to work from home. | ajb wrote: | Given that it requires changing property market choices, its | only going to happen on a big scale if working from home beds | in and people feel they can rely on it longer term. | | Having said that, I've seen some adverts for 'student hall ' | like living for young professionals. That works because the | investor can switch to the actual student market. | WarOnPrivacy wrote: | I laud your foreseen outcomes but we are far away from | everything else we'd need. | | ex: A scenario where large public halls are widely built for | young workers. | | An income to housing ratio that would allow people to make | block-level housing choices. | | Widely available, affordable, walkable neighborhoods. | ajb wrote: | As I mention in my other comment, halls for young workers is | the one I've actually seen happen already, albeit only at the | top end of the market | silexia wrote: | Only for the upper class. The lower class still has to go man | the gas stations, grocery stores, warehouses, and factories. | ajb wrote: | Yes, this is true. I'm not sure that the opportunity should | be foregone for that reason, but it would widen the cultural | and living standard has between the classes. | hackly wrote: | Don't think it has to do with class. Surgeons and dentists | still need to show up to work. Even in tech, the higher up | you are, the more likely you will want to be in the office. | ClumsyPilot wrote: | You are missing the feedback loop - if middle class doesn't | need to be crammed in a megacity to have a career, then | neither does the grocery store. | financltravsty wrote: | I'm already doing this with a set of friends in a big city with | decent public transportation (relative to the world). | | We all share a two story two flat. It's quite fun, and my | mental health is great. The big "but" is that it's unlikely to | last because people value different things. Most of us are | doing this arrangement because it's ridiculously inexpensive | compared to other forms of housing. One has already moved out | to live with his girlfriend, and another is probably going to | move to another city. | | This is of course ignoring the other very real problems: job | prospects for industries are not uniform across cities (you may | have friends in another industry that is in decline for your | local)... etc. | | I wouldn't mind a return to communal apartments, with a dining | hall, and a lounge _away_ from the property manager and the | entrance. But it's doubtful very many people will ever use | those facilities (when you have more interesting stuff to do | outside the complex, or inside your own room, why settle for | the third place?). The culture of friendship is also lacking in | my current country (U.S.), and communal values are nonexistent. | Aurornis wrote: | I don't think remote work is the bottleneck to people living | like this. It's fun when you're young but most people outgrow | the situation relatively quickly as they age (barring budget- | driven forced decisions). | | I also see a growing detachment from reality in some of the | remote work maximalists who forget that not everyone has a | job sitting at a computer all day. A significant number of | younger people have jobs involved in-person work where remote | isn't even possible. This seems to be forgotten about in some | of the writings about how remote work might change society, | especially on HN where many commenters have only known jobs | sitting in isolation at a computer. | shadowgovt wrote: | I feel like in lieu of spending money on research they could have | just asked parents. | | Basically every parent knows this. The difference between | happiness and madness is having several babysitters on standby. | seec wrote: | I hate those types of "research" that base all their "findings" | on observation of what is undesirable primitive living. What's | more they don't even meaningfully quantify what can be qualified | as neglect or abuse. | | My opinion as well as my own experience is that those children | are far more likely to be subjected to much higher levels of | abuse and neglect in this type of situation. As someone who has | been neglected by his parents very early in life, and been given | to be taken care of by various family | members/friends/institutions I cannot wish this for anyone. You | will forever wear a feeling of abandonment and insecurity that is | unfixable. That someone seriously pushes this as a valid method | for raising kids is beyond ridiculous and just shows how | disconnected from reality modern "researcher" can be. | | It also entirely removes the principle of responsibility in | reproduction. We are conscientious animals and we have a | responsibility to not reproduce if it is suboptimal to do so. The | problems we face right now as a species are precisely because we | created a system that removed many of the problems preventing too | large reproduction but without also enforcing full responsibility | (without the modern support system the sentence would be death). | | I get pissed off at all of this nonsense modern take. We had a | system; it was working pretty well. In fact, it successfully | kickstarted the industrial revolution and continued until | relatively recently. Then feminism happened and suddenly nothing | works. Women are the only one biologically able to create new | humans and they have all the necessary toolkit to grow them to | maturity; up to the point they are ready and stable as humans to | be able to learn and collaborate with others. But we destroyed | all that, following dangerous ideologies that distort reality. | And now we going to "fix it" by going back to primitive behavior. | I guess that's a way to go full circle, no very efficient, but | that's a way alright... | watwut wrote: | > We had a system; it was working pretty well. In fact, it | successfully kickstarted the industrial revolution | | You mean like when both parents worked 12 hours a day 6 days a | week and 3-4 years old roamed streets in little gangs? Older | siblings and other relatives worked those 12 plus hours a day | too. | | That was industrial revolution and actual situation. In | Germany, it led to kindergartens - you know so that 4 years | olds have a place to go to. | eastbound wrote: | I've been down this alley. No-one will understand you. | | Now I just moved back to being a normal person seemingly | integrated and all in favour of feminism and all this shit, and | I just laugh internally every time a woman tells me "I have | been raped." In my city, they add "But don't tell anyone, it | will make people racist." Every. Single. Time. Ahh, it's | already bad enough that I know several of them. | | Not very healthy, but you have to admit that you can't do | anything about it, they're not asking you for advice before | they do it. So just take that popcorn and move on. Kids being | disenfranchised? Kids abandoned? Needing state benefits for | studies because they only have a single monster as a parent? | Cousin getting mugged on the street? Throwing away a perfectly | working system? Promoting the criminals while abandoning the | adorable pupils? | | Take some distance. You can't do anything. And if you promote | the good thing, they'll take revenge upon you. People actually | _want_ all of those quirks in the system. | watwut wrote: | Criminality is historically pretty low now. So is | interpersonal violence including domestic violence and rapes. | seec wrote: | Well, I know people try very hard to not understand. So, they | don't have to feel concerned and actually do stuff to fix it. | That's how people are generally, let's just ignore everything | until the house is on fire... | | But that doesn't make it much less frustrating. And to be | honest there are more and more people understanding my view | in between words telling me their stories and ultimately | agreeing. I have to say that is somewhat necessary because | otherwise it makes you feel crazy for being the only one that | can see. Like giant permanent gaslighting... | | And yeah, people are still delusional but the stats keep | telling the same story. At some point we are going to run out | of prison and benefits for single moms I guess... | apwell23 wrote: | > the researchers say that children may be "evolutionarily | primed" to expect exceptionally high levels of physical contact | and care, | | This seems like garbage article with just one interesting line | that's never further delved into. | uoaei wrote: | "It takes a village to raise a child" is more than just an empty | truism. | jisaacstone wrote: | The book "Mothers and Others" discusses this at length, positing | not only did mothers have much more "Alloparental" support in the | past, but this was the key fact that allowed the evolution of our | big brains. That is, alloparental involvement was a necessary | precursor to homo sapian big-brain evolution and the key thing | that was lacking in other apes. | | Very interesting and highly reccomended | nonethewiser wrote: | > He argues that recent changes in UK policy show childcare is | becoming more of a priority for the government | | Seems like some massive cognitive dissonance going on here. | Outsourcing childcare is why there would be less attentive care | in modern society. Virtually all women - old, young, mothers or | not - would stay together with the children at all times in these | hunter gatherer societies. | | We already have great daycares (albeit expensive) which are | apparent contributing to this less attentive care. If we want to | return to the old ways that would be communities of women staying | home together. | wslh wrote: | The Zionist youth organizations [1] worked and work in a similar | way where teenagers take care of children and a cycle is built. | This is implemented also in Kibbutzim [2] and the diaspora as | well. | | [1] | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_youth_movement?wprov=s... | | [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz?wprov=sfti1 | philip1209 wrote: | Suburbanization is pretty much the exact opposite of hunter- | gatherer life. | concordDance wrote: | I wish the article mentioned the proportion of cries (or other | metric such as time being held) answered by non-parents/older | siblings. That's the more important figure than number of | different caregivers (where 10 people each holding the baby for | half an hour total would count). | zbyforgotp wrote: | https://open.substack.com/pub/woodfromeden/p/hell-is-other-p... | similar conclusions from an author that I like | DrNosferatu wrote: | It takes a whole village to raise a child? ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-11-26 23:00 UTC)