[HN Gopher] Resetting the Timer in My Toothbrush ___________________________________________________________________ Resetting the Timer in My Toothbrush Author : surprisetalk Score : 112 points Date : 2023-12-24 11:06 UTC (11 hours ago) (HTM) web link (nonnullish.pages.dev) (TXT) w3m dump (nonnullish.pages.dev) | Gys wrote: | Elaborate discussion 6 months ago: | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36128617 | NAR8789 wrote: | Previous article had to sniff the NFC password when the handle | connected to the head. New article has a convenient form to | generate password. | | How did they reverse the brush head password algorithm? | | https://youtu.be/EPytrn8i8sc "Hacking the Phillips Sonicare NFC | Password" (buried three links deep) | dylan604 wrote: | Is using a screen capture software expensive or difficult to | do? In 2023, why would someone not use one instead of hand | holding a phone to record so that every time they look away, | the phone bounces and makes whatever they are showing on the | screen impossible to read? | vinnymac wrote: | Most people I personally know would reach for a phone to | record a video. | | They are simply more familiar with it, and while some may | be aware screen capture exists, it usually requires some | setup, and knowledge of a macro. | Timothee wrote: | It's a bit frustrating for how much time is spent showing a | screen. | | However, making the same video with screen capture would | require a good amount of editing to also show the | toothbrush. Here everything seems to be in one take. I | don't blame him; as easy as it is now, editing is still | time consuming. | ndsipa_pomu wrote: | I think these consumer-hostile devices and brands need to be | named and shamed and ideally, some kind of consumer movement to | boycott them. Unfortunately, too many people either don't care or | believe that they want that functionality. | rplnt wrote: | It's not really hostile in this particular case. It beeps a few | times when the status changes and then just displays led in | amber instead of green. | | It is kinda sad how much effort went into this "functionality", | how much it increases the cost of the device, but selling | replacement heads is their primary business. Maybe the brushes | would be more expensive without the NFC reader and timers. | ndsipa_pomu wrote: | Just changing the colour of an LED seems okay to me. I'm | thinking more of the HP school of business where the | toothbrush would stop working until the correct proprietary | brush was replaced. | nolongerthere wrote: | Yea I have this toothbrush too, I also noticed the weird IC | on the bottom of the brush head when I first bought it, I | nearly correctly surmised what it did, was a little upset | at the prospect of being forced to buy a new head when | Phillips decided it was time, but it turns out it doesn't | really do anything, it buzzes a few times at the end of | brushing when it thinks it's time. And the LED changes | color... who cares... | | The recommendation generally is to replace your tooth brush | semi-annually, which this basically reminds you to do. | maxerickson wrote: | A lot of recommendations are every 3 to 4 months. | leipert wrote: | I mean at 360 minutes, it's every 90 days if you do two 2 | minute sessions every day. | e40 wrote: | I have never seen the reminder because I guess I change | the heads before they detect it is time. I always notice | a big difference in function when I do. | royal__ wrote: | Yes this. It's not like the entire tooth brush stops working. | Also, if you've used the brush for so long, it may very well | be time to replace the head for the sake of oral hygiene. The | most consumer unfriendly thing about these toothbrushes is | just how expensive the heads are. | crazygringo wrote: | Honestly, I appreciate it. Brushes really do wear out and | clean less effectively over time, and as a user you don't | really notice it -- frog in a boiling pot and everything. | | But every time I swap brush heads after it reminds me, you | can feel how much more effective the stiffer bristles are. | | It's not like razor blades where it becomes really obvious | from tugging that they need to be replaced. Brushes just | slowly get softer and, if you're like me, you just don't | notice. | blowski wrote: | It just reminds me of the David Mitchell / Robert Webb | sketch about "for the first time in history, people are | taking orders from their toothbrush". | alt227 wrote: | "If we tell them to, do you really think they will brush | their tongues?" | | https://youtu.be/ltZrfrmb7Ws | MereInterest wrote: | > It beeps a few times when the status changes | | Every time I turn it off, the Philips Sonicare plays a loud | series of beeps, near my head, at times of day when I'm just | waking up or about to sleep, for a toothbrush head that is | well within its lifespan. | | The only supported way to stop the beeping is to throw out | the current toothbrush head, and pay Philips more money for a | replacement that isn't needed yet. | rplnt wrote: | > Every time I turn it off, the Philips Sonicare plays a | loud series of beeps | | OK, that is annoying. Mine doesn't do that. I only got the | annoying beeps a few times around the time the timer | expired. Ever since only the different color light. | nkurz wrote: | > The only supported way to stop the beeping is to throw | out the current toothbrush head | | Are you sure? On mine, the manual shows how to turn off the | "Brush head replacement reminder": https://www.documents.ph | ilips.com/assets/20201024/46fe48eae7... (p.16-17). Might | your model have a similar feature? | cesaref wrote: | I don't have this problem with my manual toothbrush. I've | never needed to recharge it's batteries either. | PreInternet01 wrote: | I'm not sure what you mean by "every time I turn it off", | or "loud series of beeps"... Are you sure you have an | actual Sonicare? Because that doesn't need to be turned off | after brushing (the cycle ends itself), nor is it capable | of producing beeps that could be described as anywhere near | "loud". | | In any case, the user manual that helpfully ships with | every genuine Sonicare, and is also easily accessible | online, succinctly describes the steps to disable the | beeping: | | 1. Put the handle on the plugged-in charger. 2. Press and | hold the power on/off button while the handle remains on | the charger. 3. Keep the power on/off button pressed until | you hear a series of two short beeps (after 4-5 seconds). | 4. Release the power on/off button. | | But, as an actual Sonicare owner: when it beeps for | replacement, the head is truly overdue for that. In fact, I | synced the replacement schedule of my manual toothbrush | (which sees an equivalent duty cycle in my case), and every | time I look at both brushes, I have to admit: yup, those | need replacement! | atoav wrote: | As an electrical engineer I want to just remind everybody | that firmware can differ wildly between countries and | even within one series depending on when it was deployed. | | You discuss this as if it was one static unchanging | thing, when it is likely at least 10-20 different things. | mynameisvlad wrote: | As a person thinking through this logically I just want | to remind everybody that all that adds extra cost and | effort and no company is going to do that unless they | have to. _Could_ a new firmware have been released mid- | cycle? Sure. _Could_ the firmware somewhere else in the | world differ? Sure. | | Is it likely that either is the case? Probably not. If | anything, they would make a new firmware as part of a | product launch. | jrockway wrote: | > nor is it capable of producing beeps | | I mean, the whole device is basically a speaker. It can | beep if it wants to. | atoav wrote: | For me such an experience puts that manufacturer on my | blacklist. I will never buy anything from them again, | unless they managed to convince me that they changed their | whole shtick. | | There are many brand names on there, but hey, I am doing | fine. | jrockway wrote: | You do have to eventually replace your toothbrush head, | though. You are grinding down the brush bristles with | polishing compound ("toothpaste") every time you brush | your teeth. | blacksmith_tb wrote: | More expensive because they couldn't annoy you into buying as | many brush heads? It's sort of the subscription vs. software | license debate all over again, but in our mouths... I will | admit to using my brush heads past the time when Philips | 'helpfully' starts nagging me to replace them, and it was | sort of satisfying to see this reset work. It also got me | looking around and I see people pop the NFC rings loose from | old heads to reuse them as NFC tags, which is fun, I will | have to harvest a few of those (I do eventually retire mine | and use them for scrubbing etc.) | fsmv wrote: | It is Phillips Sonicare doing this. It says on the password | generator site the blog links to. It's a wonder that someone | managed to crack the NFC password for all models. | xnzakg wrote: | Apparently someone reverse engineered the firmware[0] to find | it. | | I don't see how they could easily change the password, except | for perhaps using a custom tag that would only allow | incrementing the values with the existing password (which | would negate the point of changing the password). Otherwise | it would lock existing brushes out of saving the time too. | This, combined with how 99% of the users won't be tevh-savvy | enough to know how to write to the tag, means there's | probably not gonna be any change until they come up with a | new incompatible type of brushes. | | [0]: https://kuenzi.dev/toothbrush/#update-august-16-2023 | epcoa wrote: | Where do you get the impression there was firmware reversal | involved? All I see is sniffing of the RF and the | observation it's all plaintext. | anticrymactic wrote: | Very far from hostile. I have this toothbrush and the only | thing it does is beep ONCE, when it thinks the head is done. | After that I will only show the "please change" indicator, but | will still brush just fine. | | I was actually shocked by how user _friendly_ the whole | experience is. It never prevented me from doing anything "not | recommended", it'll warn me, sure. But then go right back to | accepting my imput. | drewg123 wrote: | Very much unlike my hostile GE fridge, which will refuse to | dispense ice and water after a grace period expires when the | water filter is too old. | bbarnett wrote: | Old filters can become breeding grounds for bacteria, as | they can build up biological contaminants over time. The | more biological contamination, the more for bacteria to | feed on. | | So there is a health danger, perhaps? Not sure how likely. | | (Some municipalities use a lot of UV, and less chlorine and | other chemicals to kill bacteria. And people on wells | generally have no chlorine. In such cases, there is nothing | to slow standing water bacterial growth.) | bigallen wrote: | That is a great risk that I, a conscious, responsible | human being with agency, should be in charge of managing. | Not my fridge | bosie wrote: | How do you as a responsible human with agency manage thi? | bbarnett wrote: | I agree. But we have members of our society which will | sue, even if they are told upon purchase to be careful. | | So I suspect they are concerned about liability. | crazygringo wrote: | No. In the same way you shouldn't be in charge of | managing whether your electrical devices can electrocute | you. | | When it comes to actual safety issues, it's better that | things not work when unsafe. | | Not too long ago there was a story on HN about hospital | patients getting sick from bacterial growth in ice | machines. | | And water filters are breeding grounds for bacteria. | That's actually the main reason for replacing your Brita | filter every 3 months, not its filtering efficacy. | jrockway wrote: | You're at a friends house. They offer you a glass of | water. Do you drink it? Do you inspect the filter for | biological debris first, and then accept it? If you | don't, and you get sick, who compensates you for lost | wages? Who compensates your insurance company for the | doctor's visit? I think this is, realistically, a complex | situation. | | Having said that, I'm not sure why a filter is needed. Is | your tap water not already filtered enough? | constantly wrote: | "You might have noticed the color of the brush head changing | throughout of this post. This is because I had to run out and buy | a new one after getting locked out of the first one." | | The concept of getting locked out of one's toothbrush head is so | absurd it might as well be dystopian. | beebeepka wrote: | What's there to be locked out of? I've this brown diode | blinking for half an year. Are they disabling the vibrator? | oasisaimlessly wrote: | > [We] can see that the tag is configured to permanently | disable all write access after three wrong password attempts. | (Which I promptly exceeded when playing around) This means | that not even the toothbrush handle itself can write to this | head again. | tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: | What happens in that case? Does the toothbrush | misbehave/consider the brush beyond its lifespan, or is it | a convenient way to disable this feature? | pests wrote: | Just disable the feature the way the manufacture | instructs instead of this random hacking? Why pull out | all the engineering tools when the step by step is in the | manual? | lights0123 wrote: | It didn't mention that the toothbrush failed to keep | vibrating, just that the toothbrush head lost its function | as a writable NFC tag. | jrockway wrote: | I think that's a symptom of buying off-the-shelf NFC hardware. | They all lock you out after some small number of incorrect | attempts to guess the password, because some security | researcher noticed how easy it was to try every password and | people stopped buying their stuff if they didn't have this | feature. | | This equipment is not necessary for a toothbrush "minutes used" | counter, but unfortunately, there is no off-the-shelf | alternative. | PerryUlyssesCox wrote: | The orange light on the toothbrush comes on after three months to | remind you to change it - it's only slightly annoying but this | worked perfectly to reset it. | NegativeLatency wrote: | It's better for your mouth/teeth to change the brush, it's not | really visible but there's a difference in how effective an old | brush is at plaque removal compared to a new one. | kanapala wrote: | It doesn't work for me :( 04:1C:C9:AA:BE:12:91 23041911K | PerryUlyssesCox wrote: | You need to include the space (230419 11K) | sintezcs wrote: | Hmm. The article says that after 360 minutes of use, it will tell | you to replace. A regular tooth cleaning cycle is 2 minutes. So | it's 4 minutes for morning plus evening. 360/4=90 days..usually I | replace my toothbrush head every 2-3 months, and I think this is | what dentists also recommend. Why would I ever want to reset this | counter? | I_Am_Nous wrote: | How long before you are ingesting significant amounts of | microplastics from the bristles dissolving? | resoluteteeth wrote: | If that's an issue I suppose you could brush your teeth, | rinse your mouth, and then use a fluoride mouthwash like act | contingencies wrote: | IIRC mouthwash has been debunked as a post-brush routine | and is better deployed post sugar consumption in lieu of | immediate brushing. | | https://nypost.com/2021/07/13/dentist-warns-to-never-use- | mou... https://askthedentist.com/mouthwash-risks-and- | alternatives/ https://www.rd.com/article/health-danger- | mouthwash/ | hnarn wrote: | Categorical statements like these are infuriating. What | has been "debunked" is that you should not use mouth wash | that has a lower fluoride content than the toothpaste you | used right before, or mouth wash that is anti-bacterial. | | Not all mouthwashes and toothpastes are equal, therefore | this categorical statement is wrong, and nothing has been | "debunked". | | The mouth wash I use is the one recommended by my | dentist, it is not anti bacterial and it has 0.2% | fluoride. | | The last article you posted simply lies: | | > Mouthwash contains an antiseptic compound called | chlorhexidine. | | No it doesn't. Not all mouthwash contains that. I | recognize it though, because it's what I use as an | antiseptic alcohol to clean bruises. | TheSpiceIsLife wrote: | Chlorhexidine isn't an alcohol. | | Why would a bruise need cleaning? A bruise is always | caused by internal bleeding into the interstitial tissues | which does not break through the skin. | panarky wrote: | The fact that the device manufacturer profits by selling a | replacement part is not evidence that the part does not need | replacement. | userbinator wrote: | Microplastics should be the least of your concerns. You | ingest far more reactive substances just from food and | breathing. | NegativeLatency wrote: | Yeah the bristles wear out after use, cool images of new vs | used from an electron microscope: | https://youtu.be/cwN983PnJoA?si=2M0XEvND_VDqfcKO | jbverschoor wrote: | Toothpaste is grit 600-800 omg that's really rough, but it's | Colgate and I know that's very abrasive. I just never knew | the equivalent in grit. | | I actually use a toothpaste with low RDA (abrasiveness) of | 40-48. (VITIS) | | List of RDA values: | https://www.familydentisttree.com/abrasive-toothpaste- | whats-... | aaronbrethorst wrote: | Me, dumb: I change my Sonicare toothbrush head whenever it tells | me to. I haven't had a cavity in 8 years. | | You, a clever toothbrush-hacking genius: haha, the head is new | again! | jbverschoor wrote: | I'm more interested in getting the mouse cursor on my machine ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2023-12-24 23:00 UTC)