(C) Daily Kos This story was originally published by Daily Kos and is unaltered. . . . . . . . . . . A Taste of the Last Czech Presidential Debate, as the Second Round of Elections Rolls On [1] ['This Content Is Not Subject To Review Daily Kos Staff Prior To Publication.', 'Backgroundurl Avatar_Large', 'Nickname', 'Joined', 'Created_At', 'Story Count', 'N_Stories', 'Comment Count', 'N_Comments', 'Popular Tags'] Date: 2023-01-27 Note: The original Czech transcript of the full, nearly two hour long interview/debate is to be found on Czech Television's website, as well as the video of the event. Below, the moderator, Martin Řezníček, sometimes referred to in my awkwardly literal translation as "Mr Editor" when speaking is indicated by CZT in bold. The candidates are General Petr Pavel (indicated simply as Pavel, but referred to variously), and Andrej Babiš, ex Prime Minister of the Czech Republic (indicated as Babiš). For clarity I've added a few bits in brackets [ ]. CZT: Mr Babiš, about that, that you are coming, I know for some tens of seconds. You truly surprised us when you had refused the participation of Czech Television. What convinced you to change your decision? Babiš: We attended mass today, which was performed by Cardinal Graubner and he called upon us and said, that Jesus called upon the people— begin to think differently. And he spoke of truth, love and justice, so I began to think differently. I changed my mind. CZT: So then the words of Mr Graubner convinced you to come to the Czech Television debate? Babiš: I’ll add to that — I forgive Czech Television all the years of various information about me. CZT: Forgive me, Mr Babiš, but you don’t have anything to forgive Czech Television. Babiš: Exaggeration. I changed my mind and that’s all. CZT: Mr Pavel, we’re at the halfway mark in the campaign before the second round. Before the election, you warned against unfair play. Has anything like that happened according to you? Pavel: I think that everyone can picture how the campaign is going. That it is basically one unfair attack after another. I think that many citizens will be relieved when it’s over. CZT: Would you say specifically, what unfair attacks you believe have happened? Pavel: I’m thinking of the billboards which have appeared the last few days, which warn that if I would be elected, that I would drag the country into war— because I was a soldier, which causes citizens to doubt, which of course isn’t supported, but it’s calculated to play on the doubts that people naturally have. This abuse seems truly unfair to me. CZT: An election campaign must be, according to the law regarding the direct election of the president, honourable and proper, particularly, false information about candidates mustn’t be publicised. If you think, or if you’ve been led to believe, that false information about you has been publicised, will you somehow defend yourself? Pavel: They’re not entirely false, rather misleading things. To say that someone was a soldier, that they’ll lead the country into war, is simply disrespecting not only that concrete soldier, which it targets, but basically all, because all soldiers take that personally. And I’ve noted many soldiers’ reactions, including the Association of Army Veterans, which take exception to that, because they regard it as a blow below the belt. I think this shouldn’t be happening. CZT: Pane Babiš, you have achance to apologize. Do you wish to utilise it, or not? Babiš: I really don’t see a reason, why I should apologize. In the first place, here the government is speaking about war. Mr Pavel is a pro-government candidate. Mr Fiala [Czech Prime Minister] spoke about it a year ago, Mrs Černochová [Minister of Defense], Mr Lipavský [Minister of Foreign Affairs]. And that billboard isn’t at all about Mr Pavel. It’s about, that I say, I won’t lead the Czech Republic into war. CZT: Mr Babiš, on that billboard is written, “”General doesn’t believe in peace. Vote for peace, vote for Babiš.” Babiš: That’s a different billboard. CZT: But it’s a billboard, which has appeared around Czechia. That means, that Mr General doesn’t believe in peace? Is that what you think? Babiš: Will you give me room to speak? I’m talking about that first billboard, you’re talking about that second billboard. CZT: What’s the difference between them? Babiš: There’s a difference. I spoke about that and Mr General even tweeted in March of last year, that we should send soldiers to Ukraine. Pavel: That we should send soldiers to Ukraine? Babiš: Yes, I can read it to you. Pavel: So read it to me. That’ll be good. Babiš: Here Mr Fiala says, “We’re at war.” Everyone says, “We’re at war.” And Mr Pavel has, March 8th, 2022: “We must not fear to do more for Ukraine, to offer, for instance, NATO soldiers and air support to secure evacuation corridors and protect the civilians in them. Pavel: But that’s something different, isn’t it? Babiš: No, you simply wanted to send NATO soldiers to Ukraine. Of course that’s a risk and Mr Pavel basically has been speaking about war his whole life. CZT: Mr Babiš, it’s not my purpose to support either of you, nevertheless, I heard an interview with Mr Pavel where he spoke about, that actually sending soldiers to Ukraine could lead to expanding that conflict, to escalation — so to the exact opposite of that which you claim. Babiš: But I read his tweet. Pavel: I would, with permission, respond. You apparently didn’t notice that the securing of a humanitarian corridor is written there. That’s something completely different. That’s not sending battle units. That’s securing the evacuation of refugees. And oppositely, transferring humanitarian aid. If NATO would decide to do something like that, of course it would make sense. But it wouldn’t be a battle mission. That’s something completely, completely different. So you just didn’t understand the content of that tweet. Babiš: I understood it. You simply wanted to send our soldiers to Ukraine and it’s all the same for whatever goal. Putin murders civilians and murders the residents, murders soldiers. And you simply wanted to send our soldiers to Ukraine, so they could de facto fight or protect and could lose their lives there. I don’t want that. And therefore I spoke about peace. That’s obviously manipulation with that, that here the government is talking for a year about war, that we’re at war, here are the headlines. I was talking about peace. CZT: Mr Babiš, Petr Pavel in the Super Debate on Czech Television, in which you refused to participate, said, that he would work to prevent a war. Despite that, you have written on those billboards that which I said. That means, that the general doesn’t believe in peace? Babiš: Yes, the general doesn’t believe in lasting peace. CZT: Why are you lying, Mr Babiš? Babiš: It’s written on the billboards. Why would I lie? CZT: What’s written there? Mr General said, that he doesn’t want war. Babiš: No no, Mr General said, that he doesn’t believe in lasting peace, Mr Editor. Pavel: I said, that lasting peace is an illusion. And lasting peace truly is an illusion, because, when you look at history, you discover that human history is a history of conflicts. And therefore it doesn’t make sense to speak of something like lasting peace. However, that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t always strive for peace. That clearly isn’t exclusive. You only tear words out of context as they suit you and you only confuse concepts. Babiš: No, surely no, Mr General. You, in terms of the NATO Commission, met with the general which today is killing people in Ukraine, Valerij Gerasimov. Pavel: And do you know, for what reason? Babiš: Can I speak then? You even show off on Instagram with his photo. You were there in 2015, if I remember, 2017. And that was after the annexation of Crimea. Why did you even meet with him? Pavel: You recently bragged that you know how organizations work, perhaps even NATO. So you should have known that the chairperson of the Military Commission can’t negotiate on their own behalf, but that they have a mandate of all thirty member states. If the member states agree on that they want to de-escalate tensions with Russia, they want to set new measures to strengthen mutual trust, then it’s a rather strong mandate. It’s not anything about negotiating with a war criminal. You maybe didn’t understand how it works. Babiš: I understood, Mr General. You’re always quickly finished with everything. You simply met with him in 2017, you chatted about how the military would be there and I don’t understand that at all. Pavel: You were there? Babiš: That’s what I think— that it was in the media. From those accessible sources, you didn’t have that kind of mandate. Even, and I don’t know if they are “fakes” on the web, that you even suggested setting up nuclear weapons. Pavel: Mr Babiš, that’s again unfair. Babiš: I’m just drawing from what was. I’m just asking why you have on Instagram the photo of a person who is today at the head of the Russian army, which is killing people. And you met after the annexation of Crimea. That’s an observation. It is fact. Pavel: Then I’ll tell you — it was precisely because that I’m working for peace. In contrast with what you’re saying. Because it’s always better to discuss than fight. After the annexation of Crimea, began a two-year period in which NATO and Russia basically didn’t communicate. And it was clear to us all that not communicating meant to deepen the mutual misunderstanding and to bring perhaps some banal situation to a conflict. Thus, commissioned by thirty countries, I negotiated with General Gerasimov. Of course my preparation took place in the North Atlantic council and sanctified by all thirty member states. Otherwise, I couldn’t have negotiated there. CZT: Mr Babiš, while we’re discussing who negotiated with whom, in the last week, from the first round of the elections, you’ve met with Jaroslav Foldyna, who welcomed the Russian Wolves [The Night Wolves, a Russian motorcycle gang which supports Putin and a return to Soviet era politics and policies], you spoke with Josef Skála from KSČM [Communist Party of Czech and Moravia], Stalinist, who agreed with the invasion by the occupying Soviet military. Why did you meet with them? Babiš: Surely. I didn’t meet with them. CZT: How so, that you didn’t meet with them? Mr Foldyna was at your place during the reporting of the election results of the first round, right that very day, and now you, if I’m not mistaken, met with Mr Skála in Děčín. Babiš: I’ll gladly answer you— so, after the first round of the presidential elections nearly two million people voted for me. CZT: Why did you meet with Jaroslav Foldyna? Babiš: I want to explain it to you. Two million people. The Prime Minister and Mr Pavel say, that they’re undemocratic voters, that it’s some dregs. That’s that horrible, rural, back country, as people from Prague say. Pavel: Again you’re out of bounds. Nobody said anything like that. Babiš: Well, I don’t know, you interrupt me, the moderator doesn’t let me speak. Pavel: When you won’t lie, then nobody will interrupt you. Babiš: I’m not lying. The Prime Minister clearly said it. And I would like, Mr Editor, to say to you that in the parliamentary elections, three million people voted. Three million. Of that, two million are represented in parliament. CZT: Mr Babiš, excuse me, but you still haven’t answered the basic question. Why did you meet with Mr Foldyna, why did you meet with Mr Skála? Babiš: I’m running in order to represent all the citizens of the Czech Republic. CZT: Even those people who have pro-Russian views? Babiš: We never even talked about that. CZT: And what did you talk about with Mr Skála? I’m asking that the whole time. Why did you meet with Mr Skála and Mr Foldyna? Babiš: Can I answer? Mr Skála welcomed the military invasion by the Warsaw Pact the same as Mr General has written in his biography. Pavel: That’s also not true. Babiš: It is true. Pavel: But it isn’t true. CZT: At seven years old, do you think? Babiš: Well, I don’t know if I can speak here or not. Pavel: Try speaking the the truth sometime and it’ll be fine. Babiš: Yeah no, so I ask you, when they asked you about it on Seznam [A Czech news and entertainment website], it is obvious, they read your biography, your father convinced you that the Soviet invasion was good. Pavel: No, again you’ve read it wrong. Babiš: Didn’t read. Pavel: But yeah, I’ll bring it for you next time. Babiš: We heard it. Now then, I will meet with every citizen of the Czech Republic. And that doesn’t mean that I agree with their opinions. CZT: Even, for example, with Mr Vrabel [a rather seedy character in Czech politics— a reputation as a grifter and opportunist who goes in for conspiracy theories], who voiced his support for you? Babiš: But I will represent everyone. I don’t know Mr Vrabel. Or do you think that there are some citizens who are simply unacceptable, who are of lesser value? CZT: I’m just asking, why you met with these politicians, that is all. Babiš: I met with Mr Foldyna because he’s a member of parliament. I don’t know if there’s something bad about that, if I’d meet with a member of parliament. And as for Mr Skála, so he came there, to Děčín, he has some podcast, we didn’t talk at all together. And I’m just saying, that there’s no difference between Mr Skála and Mr General. Both welcomed the invading Soviet military in the year 1968. CZT: There’s no difference between Mr General and stalinist Skála? Babiš: No no, both welcomed that entry. And that military killed our people. Pavel: No, I really don’t know, one can’t even react to this. You honestly lie wherever you go. This just can’t be normal. Try at least sometimes to speak the truth. You maybe read my biography but — Babiš: So you weren’t on a podcast on Seznam where people asked you about that and read it to you? Pavel: Yes, but you have misread it. Babiš: And you have answered that we’ll leave it be. Pavel: No, no. Babiš: That’s your answer. You also never answer anything. Pavel: That’s not true. Veronika Sedláčková [newscaster and moderator on Seznam] asked me about it and went out of bounds the same as you. Babiš: She read it, from your biography. Pavel: No, truly no. She interpreted it. That’s a slight difference. In that biography it’s written that at that time we had friends from the Soviet Union visiting us and for them, my father explained to me how to look at it. Not at the invasion, but at how here and now the mood has turned against all Russians. Dad tried to explain to me, a small boy, that hatred of Russians doesn’t have to be universal, because many of them didn’t even want the invasion and certainly didn’t deserve such judgement. There’s nothing bad about that and that’s how it was. Never in my life have I had to express an opinion about the invasion of 1968, never did I welcome it and in no biography of mine will you find anything like that. So quit your fabrications. And if you wish to equate me to Mr Skála, then you perhaps didn’t notice that I was a member of the Communist Party until the year 1989 similar to you, but I acknowledged that and said that it was my mistake. Mr Skála is a Communist and Stalinist to this day, so that perhaps you didn’t notice that difference. Babiš: Can I reply? I would also like to get some space. I understand, that Czech Television already has a chosen candidate, but if then you’re independent television, then kindly let me reply to that. Mr Pavel, isn’t it true, as disclosed by Mr (Pavel) Beneš, that when you were in the pub and your classmates disparaged the invasion and you then, as chairman of the ZO KSČ [Fundamental Organisation of the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia], reported them, as nomenclatural cadre you there then tested them. So, that’s also not true? Mr Beneš also lies? Everyone lies, only you’re saintly. Pavel: That’s a base lie. Babiš: Of course, I think, that everyone saw it, everyone read it. … And so on, for another hour and a half. I just didn't have the strength, folks. I'm wondering, without my opinions muddling things, what the dKos community makes of this portion of the debate. I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts in the comments. 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