The Jurisdiction of the Supreme (National) Court shall extend to all Cases arising under Laws passed by the Legislature of the United States; to all Cases affecting Ambassadors (and other) 〈other〉 public Ministers 〈 Consuls〉, to the Trial of Impeachments of Officers of the United States; to all Cases of Admiralty and Maritime Jurisdiction; to Controversies between 〈States, — except those wh. regard Jurisdn or Territory, — betwn〉 a State and a Citizen or Citizens of another State, between Citizens of different States and between 〈a State or the〉 Citizens (of any of the States) 〈thereof〉 and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects. In Cases of Impeachment, (those) 〈Cases〉 affecting Ambassadors (and) other public Ministers 〈 Consuls〉, and those in which a State shall be (one of the) 〈a〉 Part(ies)〈y〉, this Jurisdiction shall be original. In all the other Cases beforementioned, it shall be appellate, with such Exceptions and under such Regulations as the Legislature shall make. The Legislature may (distribute) 〈assign any part of〉 th(is) e Jurisdiction 〈above mentd., — except the Trial of the Executive —〉, in the Manner and under the Limitations which it shall think proper (among) 〈to〉 such (other) 〈inferior〉 Courts as it shall constitute from Time to Time.
(Crimes shall be tried) 〈〉 in the State, (in which) 〈where〉 they shall be committed; (and) The Trial of (them) 〈all Criml Offences, — except in Cases of Impeachment —〉 shall be by Jury.
〈Judgmts. in Cases of Impeachmt. shall not extend further than to removal from Office disqualifn. to hold enjoy any place of Honr. Trust or Profit under the U. S. But the party convicted shall nevertheless be liable subject to Judl. Trial Judt Punishment according to (the) Law of (the Land)〉
New States lawfully constituted or established within the Limits of the United States may be admitted, by the Legislature, into this Government; but to such Admission the Consent of two thirds of the Members present in each House shall be necessary. If a new State shall arise within the Limits of any of the present States; the consent of the Legislatures of such States shall be also necessary to its Admission. If (such) the Admission be consented to, the new States shall be admitted on the same Terms with the original States. But the Legislature may make Conditions with the new States concerning the public Debt, which shall be then subsisting.
〈The free (inhabs) Citizens of each State shall be intitled to all Privileges Immunities of free Citizens in the sevl States 20
Any person charged with Treason Felony or high Misdemeanor who shall flee from Justice be found in any of the U States shall on demd of the executive power of the State from wh. he fled be delivd. up removed to the State havg Jurisdn of (the tr) the Offence. —
Full Faith Credit c〉
The United States shall guaranty to each State a Republican form of Government; and shall protect each State against foreign Invasions, and, on the Application of its Legislature, against domestic Violence.
This Constitution ought to be amended whenever such amendment shall become necessary; and on the Application of (two thirds) the Legislatures of two thirds of the States of the Union, the Legislature of the United States shall call a Convention for that Purpose.
The Members of the Legislatures, and the executive and judicial Officers of the United States, and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath to support this Constitution.
(〈In order to introduce this Governnt〉)
(Resolved)
(That) this Constitution proposed (by this Convention to the People of the United States for their Approbation should) 〈shall〉 be laid before the United States in Congress assembled for their (Agreement and Recommendation) 〈Approbation〉 and 〈that in the opinn. of this Conventn. it shd〉 be afterwards submitted to a Convention chosen in each State, under the Recommendations of its Legislature in Order to receive the Ratification of such Convention.
Resolved
〈In order to introde. this Govt it is the opinn of this Convn that〉 That the Ratification of the Conventions of States shall be sufficient for organizing this Constitution. (That each) each assenting Convention (in each) (shall) 〈shd.〉 notify its Assent and Ratification to the United States in Congress assembled: (That the United States in) that Congress (assembled), after receiving the Assent and Ratification of the Conventions of States, (shall) 〈shd.〉 appoint and publish a Day, as early as may be, and appoint a Place for commencing Proceedings under this Constitution: That after such Publication (or, — in Case it shall not be made — after the expiration of Days from the Time when the Ratification of the Convention of the State shall have been notified to Congress,) the Legislatures of the several States (shall) shd. elect Members of the Senate, and direct the Election of Members of the House of Representatives (and shall provide for their support). That the Members of the Legislature (shall) shd. meet at the Time and Place assigned by Congress, (or, — if Congress shall have assigned no Time and Place — at such Time and Place as shall have been agreed on by the Majority of the Members elected for each House;) and (shall) 〈shd.〉 as soon as may be, after their Meeting, choose the President of the United States, and proceed to execute this Constitution.
Returned to Philada. The committee of Convention ready to report. Their report in the hands of Dunlop the printer to strike off copies for the members.
The House met agreeably to adjournment.
The honorable John Francis Mercer Esq, One of the Deputies from the State of Maryland, attended and took his seat.
The honorable Mr Rutledge, from the Committee to whom were referred the Proceedings of the Convention for the purpose of reporting a Constitution for the establishment of a national Government conformable to these Proceedings, informed the House that the Committee were prepared to report — The report was then delivered in at the Secretary’s table, and being read once throughout and copies thereof given to the members — It was moved and seconded to adjourn till wednesday morning
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 3; noes — 5.]
The house then adjourned till to-morrow morning at 11 o’Clock A. M.
[Beginning of 8th loose sheet] | |||||||||||||||||
New Hampshire | Massachusetts | Rhode Island | Connecticut | New York | New Jersey | Pennsylvania | Delaware | Maryland | Virginia | North Carolina | South Carolina | Georgia | Questions | Ayes | Noes | Divided | |
[232] | no | no | no | aye | aye | aye | no | no | To adjourn till wednesday | 3 | 5 |
〈Mr. John Francis Mercer from Maryland took his seat.〉 1
Mr. Rutlidge 〈delivered in〉 the Report of the Committee of detail as follows; 2 〈a printed copy being at the same time furnished to each member.〉 3
“We the people of the States of New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New-York, New-Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North-Carolina, South-Carolina, and Georgia, do ordain, declare, and establish the following Constitution for the Government of Ourselves and our Posterity.
The stile of the [this] Government shall be. “The United States of America”
The Government shall consist of supreme legislative, executive, and judicial powers.
The legislative power shall be vested in a Congress, to consist of two separate and distinct bodies of men, a House of Representatives and a Senate; each of which shall [,] in all cases [,] have a negative on the other. The Legislature shall meet on the first Monday in December [in] every year.
Sect. 1. The members of the House of Representatives shall be chosen every second year, by the people of the several States comprehended within this Union. The qualifications of the electors shall be the same, from time to time, as those of the electors in the several States, of the most numerous branch of their own legislatures.
Sect. 2. Every member of the House of Representatives shall be of the age of twenty five years at least; shall have been a citizen of [in] the United States for at least three years before his election; and shall be, at the time of his election, a resident of the State in which he shall be chosen.
Sect. 3. The House of Representatives shall, at its first formation, and until the number of citizens and inhabitants shall be taken in the manner herein after described, consist of sixty five Members, of whom three shall be chosen in New Hampshire, eight in Massachusetts, one in Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations, five in Connecticut, six in New-York, four in New-Jersey, eight in Pennsylvania, one in Delaware, six in Maryland, ten in Virginia, five in North-Carolina, five in South-Carolina, and three in Georgia.
Sect. 4. As the proportions of numbers in [the] different States will alter from time to time; as some of the States may hereafter be divided; as others may be enlarged by addition of territory; as two or more States may be united; as new States will be erected within the limits of the United States, the Legislature shall, in each of these cases, regulate the number of representatives by the number of inhabitants, according to the provisions herein after made, at the rate of one for every forty thousand.
Sect. 5. All bills for raising or appropriating money, and for fixing the salaries of the officers of the Government, shall originate in the House of Representatives, and shall not be altered or amended by the Senate. No money shall be drawn from the public Treasury, but in pursuance of appropriations that shall originate in the House of Representatives.
Sect. 6. The House of Representatives shall have the sole power of impeachment. It shall choose its Speaker and other officers.
Sect. 7. Vacancies in the House of Representatives shall be supplied by writs of election from the executive authority of the State, in the representation from which it shall happen.
Sect. 1. The Senate of the United States shall be chosen by the Legislatures of the several States. Each Legislature shall chuse two members. Vacancies may be supplied by the Executive until the next meeting of the Legislature. Each member shall have one vote.
Sect. 2. The Senators shall be chosen for six years; but immediately after the first election they shall be divided, by lot, into three classes, as nearly as may be, numbered one, two and three. The seats of the members of the first class shall be vacated at the expiration of the second year, of the second class at the expiration of the fourth year, of the third class at the expiration of the sixth year, so that a third part of the members may be chosen every second year.
Sect. 3. Every member of the Senate shall be of the age of thirty years at least; shall have been a citizen in the United States for at least four years before his election; and shall be, at the time of his election, a resident of the State for which he shall be chosen.
Sect. 4. The Senate shall chuse its own President and other officers.
Sect. 1. The times and places and [the] manner of holding the elections of the members of each House shall be prescribed by the Legislature of each State; but their provisions concerning them may, at any time, be altered by the Legislature of the United States.
Sect. 2. The Legislature of the United States shall have authority to establish such uniform qualifications of the members of each House, with regard to property, as to the said Legislature shall seem expedient.
Sect. 3. In each House a majority of the members shall constitute a quorum to do business; but a smaller number may adjourn from day to day.
Sect. 4. Each House shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members.
Sect. 5. Freedom of speech and debate in the Legislature shall not be impeached or questioned in any Court or place out of the Legislature; and the members of each House shall, in all cases, except treason [,] felony and breach of the peace, be privileged from arrest during their attendance at Congress, and in going to and returning from it.
Sect. 6. Each House may determine the rules of its proceedings; may punish its members for disorderly behaviour; and may expel a member.
Sect. 7. The House of Representatives, and the Senate, when it shall be acting in a legislative capacity, shall keep a Journal of their proceedings, and shall, from time to time, publish them: and the yeas and nays of the members of each House, on any question, shall [,] at the desire of one-fifth part of the members present, be entered on the journal.
Sect. 8. Neither House, without the consent of the other, shall adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other place than that at which the two Houses are sitting. But this regulation shall not extend to the Senate, when it shall exercise the powers mentioned in the article.
Sect. 9. The members of each House shall be ineligible to, and incapable of holding any office under the authority of the United States, during the time for which they shall respectively be elected: and the members of the Senate shall be ineligible to, and incapable of holding any such office for one year afterwards.
Sect. 10. The members of each House shall receive a compensation for their services, to be ascertained and paid by the State, in which they shall be chosen,
Sect. 11. The enacting stile of the laws of the United States shall be, “Be it enacted by the Senate and Representatives in Congress assembled”. 4
Sect. 12. Each House shall possess the right of originating bills, except in the cases beforementioned.
Sect. 13. Every bill, which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a law, be presented to the President of the United States for his revision: if, upon such revision, he approve of it, he shall signify his approbation by signing it: But if, upon such revision, it shall appear to him improper for being passed into a law, he shall return it, together with his objections against it, to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the objections at large on their journal and proceed to reconsider the bill. But if after such reconsideration, two thirds of that House shall, notwithstanding the objections of the President, agree to pass it, it shall together with his objections, be sent to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and [,] if approved by two thirds of the other House also, it shall become a law. But in all such cases, the votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and nays; and the names of the persons voting for or against the bill shall be entered on the journal of each House respectively. If any bill shall not be returned by the President within seven days after it shall have been presented to him, it shall be a law, unless the legislature by their adjournment, prevent its return; in which case it shall not be a law.
Sect. 1. The Legislature of the United States shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises;
To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several States;
To establish an uniform rule of naturalization throughout the United States;
To coin money;
To regulate the value of foreign coin;
To fix the standard of weights and measures;
To establish Post-offices;
To borrow money, and emit bills on the credit of the United States;
To appoint a Treasurer by ballot;
To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;
To make rules concerning captures on land and water;
To declare the law and punishment of piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and the punishment of counterfeiting the coin of the United States, and of offences against the law of nations;
To subdue a rebellion in any State, on the application of its legislature;
To make war;
To raise armies;
To build and equip fleets;
To call forth the aid of the militia, in order to execute the laws of the Union, enforce treaties, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions;
And to make all laws that shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested, by this Constitution, in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof;
Sect. 2. Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against the United States, or any of them; and in adhering to the enemies of the United States, or any of them. The Legislature of the United States shall have power to declare the punishment of treason. No person shall be convicted of treason, unless on the testimony of two witnesses. No attainder of treason shall work corruption of bloods nor forfeiture, except during the life of the person attainted.
Sect. 3. The proportions of direct taxation shall be regulated by the whole number of white and other free citizens and inhabitants, of every age, sex and condition, including those bound to servitude for a term of years, and three fifths of all other persons not comprehended in the foregoing description, (except Indians not paying taxes) which number shall, within six years after the first meeting of the Legislature, and within the term of every ten years afterwards, be taken in such manner as the said Legislature shall direct.
Sect. 4. No tax or duty shall be laid by the Legislature on articles exported from any State; nor on the migration or importation of such persons as the several States shall think proper to admit; nor shall such migration or importation be prohibited.
Sect- 5. No capitation tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the Census hereinbefore directed to be taken.
Sect- 6. No navigation act shall be passed without the assent of two thirds of the members present in each House.
Sect. 7. The United States shall not grant any title of Nobility.
The Acts of the Legislature of the United States made in pursuance of this Constitution, and all treaties made under the authority of the United States shall be the supreme law of the several States, and of their citizens and inhabitants; and the judges in the several States shall be bound thereby in their decisions; anything in the Constitutions or laws of the several States to the contrary notwithstanding.
Sect. 1. The Senate of the United States shall have power to make treaties, and to appoint Ambassadors, and Judges of the supreme Court.
Sect. 2. In all disputes and controversies now subsisting, or that may hereafter subsist between two or more States, respecting jurisdiction or territory, the Senate shall possess the following powers. Whenever the Legislature, or the Executive authority, or lawful Agent of any State, in controversy with another, shall by memorial to the Senate, state the matter in question, and apply for a hearing; notice of such memorial and application shall be given by order of the Senate, to the Legislature or the Executive authority of the other State in Controversy. The Senate shall also assign a day for the appearance of the parties, by their agents, before the House. The Agents shall be directed to appoint, by joint consent, commissioners or judges to constitute a Court for hearing and determining the matter in question. But if the Agents cannot agree, the Senate shall name three persons out of each of the several States; and from the list of such persons each party shall alternately strike out one, until the number shall be reduced to thirteen; and from that number not less than seven nor more than nine names, as the Senate shall direct, shall in their presence, be drawn out by lot; and the persons whose names shall be so drawn, or any five of them shall be commissioners or Judges to hear and finally determine the controversy; provided a majority of the Judges, who shall hear the cause, agree in the determination. If either party shall neglect to attend at the day assigned, without shewing sufficient reasons for not attending, or being present shall refuse to strike, the Senate shall proceed to nominate three persons out of each State, and the Clerk of the Senate shall strike in behalf of the party absent or refusing. If any of the parties shall refuse to submit to the authority of such Court; or shall not appear to prosecute or defend their claim or cause, the Court shall nevertheless proceed to pronounce judgment. The judgment shall be final and conclusive. The proceedings shall be transmitted to the President of the Senate, and shall be lodged among the public records, for the security of the parties concerned. Every Commissioner shall, before he sit in judgment, take an oath, to be administred by one of the Judges of the Supreme or Superior Court of the State where the cause shall be tried, “well and truly to hear and determine the matter in question according to the best of his judgment, without favor, affection, or hope of reward.”
Sect. 3. All controversies concerning lands claimed under different grants of two or more States, whose jurisdictions, as they respect such lands shall have been decided or adjusted subsequent to such grants, or any of them, shall, on application to the Senate, be finally determined, as near as may be, in the same manner as is before prescribed for deciding controversies between different States.
Sect. 1. The Executive Power of the United States shall be vested in a single person. His stile shall be “The President of the United States of America;” and his title shall be, “His Excellency”. He shall be elected by ballot by the Legislature. He shall hold his office during the term of seven years; but shall not be elected a second time.
Sect. 2. He shall, from time to time, give information to the Legislature, of the state of the Union: he may recommend to their consideration such measures as he shall judge necessary, and expedient: he may convene them on extraordinary occasions. In case of disagreement between the two Houses, with regard to the time of adjournment, he may adjourn them to such time as he thinks proper: he shall take care that the laws of the United States be duly and faithfully executed: he shall commission all the officers of the United States; and shall appoint officers in all cases not otherwise provided for by this Constitution. He shall receive Ambassadors, and may correspond with the supreme Executives of the several States. He shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons; but his pardon shall not be pleadable in bar of an impeachment. He shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the Several States. He shall, at stated times, receive for his services, a compensation, which shall neither be increased nor diminished during his continuance in office. Before he shall enter on the duties of his department, he shall take the following oath or affirmation, “I — solemnly swear, (or affirm) that that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States of America.” He shall be removed from his office on impeachment by the House of Representatives, and conviction in the supreme Court, of treason, bribery, or corruption. In case of his removal as aforesaid, death, resignation, or disability to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the President of the Senate shall exercise those powers and duties, until another President of the United States be chosen, or until the disability of the President be removed.
Sect. 1. The Judicial Power of the United States shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as shall, when necessary, from time to time, be constituted by the Legislature of the United States.
Sect. 2. The Judges of the Supreme Court, and of the Inferior Courts, shall hold their offices during good behaviour. They shall, at stated times, receive for their services, a compensation, which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office.
Sect. 3. The Jurisdiction of the Supreme Court shall extend to all cases arising under laws passed by the Legislature of the United States; to all cases affecting Ambassadors, other Public Ministers and Consuls; to the trial of impeachments of Officers of the United States; to all cases of Admiralty and maritime jurisdiction; to controversies between two or more States, (except such as shall regard Territory or Jurisdiction) between a State and Citizens of another State, between Citizens of different States, and between a State or the Citizens thereof and foreign States, citizens or subjects. In cases of impeachment, cases affecting Ambassadors, other Public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be party, this jurisdiction shall be original. In all the other cases before mentioned, it shall be appellate, with such exceptions and under such regulations as the Legislature shall make. The Legislature may assign any part of the jurisdiction above mentioned (except the trial of the President of the United States) in the manner, and under the limitations which it shall think proper, to such Inferior Courts, as it shall constitute from time to time.
Sect. 4. The trial of all criminal offences (except in cases of impeachments) shall be in the State where they shall be committed; and shall be by Jury.
Sect. 5. Judgment, in cases of Impeachment, shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honour, trust or profit, under the United States. But the party convicted shall, nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment according to law.
No State shall coin money; nor grant letters of marque and reprisals; nor enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; nor grant any title of Nobility.
No State, without the consent of the Legislature of the United States, shall emit bills of credit, or make any thing but specie a tender in payment of debts; nor lay imposts or duties on imports; nor keep troops or ships of war in time of peace; nor enter into any agreement or compact with another State, or with any foreign power; nor engage in any war, unless it shall be actually invaded by enemies, or the danger of invasion be so imminent, as not to admit of delay, until the Legislature of the United States can be consulted.
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States.
Any person charged with treason, felony or high misdemeanor in any State, who shall flee from justice, and shall be found in any other State, shall, on demand of the Executive power of the State from which he fled, be delivered up and removed to the State having jurisdiction of the offence.
Full faith shall be given in each State to the acts of the Legislatures, and to the records and judicial proceedings of the Courts and Magistrates of every other State.
New States lawfully constituted or established within the limits of the United States may be admitted, by the Legislature, into this Government; but to such admission the consent of two thirds of the members present in each House shall be necessary. If a new State shall arise within the limits of any of the present States, the consent of the Legislatures of such States shall be also necessary to its admission. If the admission be consented to, the new States shall be admitted on the same terms with the original States. But the Legislature may make conditions with the new States, concerning the public debt which shall be then subsisting.
The United States shall guaranty to each State a Republican form of Government; and shall protect each State against foreign invasions, and, on the application of its Legislature, against domestic violence.
On the application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the States in the Union, for an amendment of this Constitution, the Legislature of the United States shall call a Convention for that purpose.
The members of the Legislatures, and the Executive and Judicial officers of the United States, and of the several States, shall be bound by oath to support this Constitution.
The ratifications of the Conventions of States shall be sufficient for organizing this Constitution.
This Constitution shall be laid before the United States in Congress assembled, for their approbation; and it is the opinion of this Convention, that it should be afterwards submitted to a Convention chosen, under the recommendation of its legislature, in order to receive the ratification of such Convention.
To introduce this government, it is the opinion of this Convention, that each assenting Convention should notify its assent and ratification to the United States in Congress assembled; that Congress, after receiving the assent and ratification of the Conventions of States, should appoint and publish a day, as early as may be, and appoint a place for commencing proceedings under this Constitution; that after such publication, the Legislatures of the several States should elect members of the Senate, and direct the election of members of the House of Representatives; and that the members of the Legislature should meet at the time and place assigned by Congress, and should, as soon as may be, after their meeting, choose the President of the United States, and proceed to execute this Constitution.”
〈A motion was made to adjourn till Wednesday, in order to give leisure to examine the Report; which passed in the Negative — N. H. no. Mas — no. Ct. no. Pa. ay Md. ay. Virg. ay. N. C. no. S — C. no 6
Augt. 6. Convention met. present 8 States. Report delivered in by Mr. Rutledge. read. Convention adjourned till to-morrow to give the members an opportunity to consider the report.
Proposed to Mr. D. Carrol, Mr. Jenifer — Mr. Mercer and Mr. Martin, to meet to confer on the report, and to p[r]epare ourselves to act in unison. 8
Met at Mr. Carrolls lodgings in the afternoon. I repeated the object of our meeting, and proposed that we should take the report up by paragraphs and give our opinions thereon. Mr. Mercer wished to know of me whether I thought Maryland would embrace such a system. I told him I did not know, but I presumed the people would not object to a wise system. He extended this idea to the other gentlemen. Mr. Martin said they would not; That he was against the system, that a compromise only had enabled its abettors to bring it into its present stage — that had Mr. Jenifer voted with him, things would have taken a different turn. Mr. Jenifer said he voted with him till he saw it was in vain to oppose its progress. I begged the gentlemen to observe some order to enable us to do the business we had convened upon. I wished that we could be unanimous — and would make a proposition to effect it. — I would join the deputation in bringing on a motion to postpone the report, to try the affections of the house to an amendment of the confederation without altering the sovereignty of suffrage; which failing we should then agree to render the system reported as perfect as we could, in the mean while to consider our motion to fail and proceed to confer upon the report agreeably to the intention of our meeting. I. E. That we should now and at our future meetings alter the report to our own judgement to be able to appear unanimous in case our motion failed. —
Mr. Carrol could not agree to this proposition, because he did not think the confederation could be amended to answer its intentions. I thought that it was susceptable of a revision which would sufficiently invigorate it for the exigencies of the times. Mr. Mercer thought otherwise as did Mr. Jenifer. This proposition to conciliate the deputation was rejected.
Mr. Martin in the course of the conversation observed that he was against two branches — that we was against the people electing the representatives of the national government. That he wished to see the States governments rendered capable of the most vigorous exertions, and so knit together by a confederation as to act together on national emergencies.
Finding that we could come to no conclusions I recommended meeting again to-morrow, for unless we could appear in the convention with some degree of unanimity it would be unnecessary to remain in it, sacrificing time and money without being able to render any service. They agreed to meet to-morrow, except Mr. Martin who said he was going to New York and would not be back till monday following.
It being of importance to know and to fix the opinions of my colleagues on the most consequential articles of the new system; I prepared the following propositions, for that purpose viz.
Art. IV. Sec. 5. Will you use your best endeavours to obtain for the senate an equal authority over money bills with the house of representatives.?
Art. VII. Sect. 6. Will you use your best endeavours to have it made a part of the system that “no navigation act shall be passed without the assent of two thirds of the representation from each State?
In case these alterations cannot be obtained will you give your assent to the 5 sect. of the IV article and 6 sect. of the VII. article as they stand in the report?
Will you also, (in case these alterations are not obtained) agree that the ratification of the conventions of nine States shall be sufficient for organizing the new constitutions?
N. B. 9 Saw Mr. Mercer make out a list of the members names who had attended or were attending in convention with for and against marked opposite most of them — asked carelessly what question occasioned his being so particular upon which he told me laughing that it was no question but that those marked with a for were for a king. I then asked him how he knew that to which he said no matter the thing is so. I took a copy with his permission, and Mr. Martin seeing me about it asked What it was. I told him, in the words Mr. Mercer had told me, when he begged me to let him copy the list which I did. 10
[To refer the report to a Committee of the whole Ayes — 5; noes — 4.
Delaware being represented during the Debate a question was again taken on ye Committee of ye whole Ayes — 3; noes — 6.] 1
On the question to agree to the Preamble to the constitution as reported from the committee to whom were referred the Proceedings of the Convention — it passed unan: in the affirmative [Ayes — 10; noes — 0.] 2
On the question to agree to the first article, as reported, it passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the second article, as reported, it passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to alter the second clause of the third article so as to read
“each of which shall in all cases have a negative on the legislative acts of the other”
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 5; noes — 5.]
On the question to strike the following clause out of the third article namely
“each of which shall, in all cases, have a negative on the other”
it passed in the affirmative. [Ayes — 7; noes — 3.]
It was moved and seconded to add the following words to the last clause of the third article
“unless a different day shall be appointed by law”
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 8; noes — 2.] 3
It was moved and seconded to strike out the word “December” and to insert the word “May” in the third article
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 2; noes — 8.]
It was moved and seconded to insert after the word “Senate” in the third article, the following words, namely
“subject to the negative hereafter mentioned”
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 1; noes — 9.]
It was moved and seconded to amend the last clause of the third article so as to read as follows namely
“The Legislature shall meet at least once in every year; and such meeting shall be on the first monday in December unless a different day shall be appointed by law”
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to strike out the last clause in the first section of the fourth article
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 1; noes — 7; divided — 1.]
[To adjourn Ayes — 4; noes — 5.] 4
It was moved and seconded to adjourn till to-morrow morning at 10 o’clock
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 3; noes — 5; divided — 1.]
The House then adjourned till to-morrow morning at 11 o’clock [Ayes — 7; noes — 2.] 5
New Hampshire | Massachusetts | Rhode Island | Connecticut | New York | New Jersey | Pennsylvania | Delaware | Maryland | Virginia | North Carolina | South Carolina | Georgia | Questions | Ayes | Noes | Divided | |
[233] | no | no | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | To refer the report to a Committee of the whole | 5 | 4 | |||||
[234] | no | no | no | no | aye | aye | aye | no | no | Delaware being represented during the Debate a question was again taken on ye Committee of ye whole | 3 | 6 | |||||
[235] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | |||||||
[236] | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | no | no | aye | no | no | To insert the words “legislative acts of the other in the third article | 5 | 5 | ||||
[237] | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | no | aye | no | aye | aye | To strike out the words each of wh shall in all cases have a negative on the other 3rd article | 7 | 3 | ||||
[238] | no | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | To add an amendnt to the last clause of ye 3. article offered by Mr Randolph | 8 | 2 | ||||
[239] | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | aye | aye | To strike out the word Decr and insert “May” | 2 | 8 | ||||
[240] | no | no | no | no | aye | no | no | no | no | no | To add the words subject to the negative hereafter mentioned | 1 | 9 | ||||
[241] | no | no | no | no | aye | dd | no | no | no | To strike out the last clause of the first section of the fourth article | 1 | 7 | 1 | ||||
[242] | no | no | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | no | To adjourn | 4 | 5 | |||||
[243] | aye | aye | aye | no | no | no | no | no | dd | To adjourn till 10 o’Clock | 3 | 5 | |||||
[244] | no | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | 7 | 2 |
The Report of the Committee 〈of detail being〉 taken up,
Mr. Pinkney moved that it be referred to a Committee of the whole. This was strongly opposed by Mr Ghorum and several others, as likely to produce unnecessary delay; and was negatived. 〈Delaware Maryd. Virga. only being in the affirmative.〉 6
The 〈preamble〉 7 of the Report was agreed to nem. con. So were Art: I II. 8
Art: III. 9 considered. Col. Mason doubted the propriety of giving each branch a negative on the other “in all cases”. There were some cases in which it was he supposed not intended to be given as in the case of balloting for appointments.
Mr. Govr. Morris moved to 〈insert〉 “legislative acts” instead of “all cases”
Mr Williamson 2ds. him.
Mr. Sherman. This will restrain the operation of the clause too much. It will particularly exclude a mutual negative in the case of ballots, which he hoped would take place.
Mr. Ghorum contended that elections ought to be made by joint ballot. If separate ballots should be made for the President, and the two branches should be each attached to a favorite, great delay, contention confusion may ensue. These inconveniences have been felt in Masts. in the election of officers of little importance compared with the Executive of the U. States. The only objection agst. a joint ballot is that it may deprive the Senate of their due weight; but this ought not to prevail over the respect due to the public tranquility welfare.
Mr. Wilson was for a joint ballot in several cases at least; particularly in the choice of the President, and was therefore for the amendment. Disputes between the two Houses, during concerng the vacancy of the Executive, might have dangerous consequences.
Col. Mason thought the amendment of Govr. Morris extended too far. Treaties are in a subsequent part declared to be laws, they will be therefore subjected to a negative; altho’ they are to be made as proposed by the Senate alone. He proposed that the mutual negative should be restrained to “cases requiring the distinct assent” of the two Houses.
Mr. Govr. Morris thought this but a repetition of the same thing; the mutual negative and distinct assent, being equavalent expressions. Treaties he thought were not laws.
Mr 〈Madison〉 10 moved to strike out the words “each of which shall in all cases, have a negative on the other; the idea being sufficiently expressed in the preceding member of the Article; vesting the “legislative power” in “distinct bodies”. especially as the respective powers and mode of exercising them were fully delineated in a subsequent article.
Genl. Pinkney 2ded. the motion
On a question for inserting legislative Acts as moved by Mr Govr. Morris
N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. Pa. ay. Del. no. Md no. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 5; noes — 5.]
On question for agreeing to’ Mr M’s motion to strike out c —
N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. no. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay. N- C- no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 7; noes — 3.]
Mr 〈Madison〉 wished to know the reasons of the Come for fixing by ye. Constitution the time of Meeting for the Legislature; and suggested, that it be required only that one meeting at least should be held every year leaving the time to be fixed or varied by law.
Mr. Govr. Mor moved to strike out the sentence. It was improper to tie down the Legislature to a particular time, or even to require a meeting every year. The public business might not require it.
Mr. Pinckney concurred with Mr 〈Madison〉
Mr. Ghorum. If the time be not fixed by the Constition, disputes will arise in the Legislature; and the States will be at a loss to adjust thereto, the times of their elections. In the N. England States, the annual time of meeting had been long fixed by their Charters and Constitutions, and no inconveniency had resulted. He thought it necessary that there should be one meeting at least every year as a check on the Executive department.
Mr. Elseworth was agst. striking out the words. The Legislature will not know till they are met whether the public interest required their meeting or not. He could see no impropriety in fixing the day, as the Convention could judge of it as well as the Legislature.
Mr. Wilson thought on the whole it would be best to fix the day.
Mr. King could not think there would be a necessity for a meeting every year. A great vice in our system was that of legislating too much. The most numerous objects of legislation belong to the States. Those of the Natl. Legislature were but few. The chief of them were commerce revenue. When these should be once settled, alterations would be rarely necessary easily made.
Mr 〈Madison〉 thought if the time of meeting should be fixed by a law it wd. be sufficiently fixed there would be no difficulty 〈then〉 as had been suggested, on the part of the States in adjusting their elections to it. One consideration appeared to him to militate strongly agst. fixing a time by the Constitution. It might happen that the Legislature might be called together by the public exigencies finish their Session but a short time before the annual period. In this case it would be extremely inconvenient to reassemble so quickly without the least necessity. He thought one annual meeting ought to be required; but did not wish to make two unavoidable.
Col. Mason thought the objections against fixing the time insuperable; but that an annual meeting ought to be required as essential to the preservation of the Constitution. The extent of the Country will supply business. And if it should not, the Legislature, besides legislative, is to have inquisitorial powers, which can not safely be long kept in a State of suspension.
Mr. Sherman was decided for fixing the time, as well as for frequent meetings of the Legislative body. Disputes and difficulties will arise between the two Houses, between both the States, if the time be changeable — frequent meetings of Parliament were required at the Revolution in England as an essential safeguard of liberty. So also are annual meetings in most of the American charters and constitutions. There will be business eno’ to require it. The Western Country, and the great extent and varying state of our affairs in general will supply objects.
Mr. Randolph 11 was agst. fixing any day irrevocably; but as there was no provision made any where in the Constitution for regulating the periods of meeting, and some precise time must be fixed, untill the Legislature shall make provision, he could not agree to strike out the words altogether. Instead of which he moved 〈to add the words following — “unless a different day shall be appointed by law.”〉 12
Mr. 〈Madison〉 2ded. the motion, on the question
N. H. no. Mas. ay. Ct. no. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 8; noes — 2.]
Mr. Govr. Morris moved to strike out Decr. insert May. It might frequently happen that our measures ought to be influenced by those in Europe, which were generally planned during the Winter and of which intelligence would arrive in the Spring.
Mr. 〈Madison〉 2ded. the motion. he preferred May to Decr. because the latter would require the travelling to from the Seat of Govt. in the most inconvenient seasons of the year.
Mr. Wilson. The Winter is the most convenient season for business.
Mr. Elseworth. The summer will interfere too much with private business, that of almost all the probable members of the Legislature being more or less connected with agriculture.
Mr Randolph. The time is of no great moment now, as the Legislature can vary it. On looking into the Constitutions of the States, he found that the times of their elections with which the elections of the Natl. Representatives would no doubt be made to co-incide, would suit better with Decr than May. And it was advisable to render our innovations as little incommodious as possible.
On question for “May” instead of “Decr.”
N- H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 2; noes — 8.]
Mr. Read moved to insert 〈after the word “Senate” the words “subject〉 13 to the Negative to be hereafter provided”. His object was to give an absolute negative to the Executive — He considered this as so essential to the Constitution, to the preservation of liberty, to the public welfare, that his duty compelled him to make the motion.
Mr. Govr. Morris 2ded. him. And on the question
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. Pa. no. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 1; noes — 9.]
Mr. Rutlidge. Altho’ it is agreed on all hands that an annual meeting of the Legislature should be made necessary, yet that point seems not to be freed from doubt as the clause stands. On this suggestion. “Once at least in every year.” were inserted, nem. con.
Art. III with the foregoing alterations was agd. to nem. con. 〈and is as follows “The Legislative power shall be vested in a Congress to consist of 2 separate distinct bodies of men; a House of Reps. a Senate. The Legislature shall meet at least once in every year, and such meeting shall be on the 1st. monday in Decr. unless a different day shall be appointed by law”.〉 13
“Art IV. Sect. 1. 14 taken up.”
Mr. Govr. Morris moved to strike out the last member of the section 〈beginning with the words〉 “qualifications” of Electors.” in order that some other provision might be substituted which wd. restrain the right of suffrage to freeholders.
Mr. Fitzsimmons 2ded. the motion
Mr. Williamson was opposed to it.
Mr. Wilson. This part of the Report was well considered by the Committee, and he did not think it could be changed for the better. It was difficult to form any uniform rule of qualifications for all the States. Unnecessary innovations he thought too should be avoided. It would be very hard disagreeable for the same persons, at the same time, to vote for representatives in the State Legislature and to be excluded from a vote for those in the Natl. Legislature.
Mr. Govr. Morris. Such a hardship would be neither great nor novel. The people are accustomed to it and not dissatisfied with it, in several of the States. In some the qualifications are different for the choice of the Govr. Representatives; In others for different Houses of the Legislature. Another objection agst. the clause as it stands is that it makes the qualifications of the Natl. Legislature depend on the will of the States, which he thought not proper.
Mr. Elseworth. thought the qualifications of the electors stood on the most proper footing. The right of suffrage was a tender point, and strongly guarded by most of the 〈State〉 Constitutions. The people will not readily subscribe to the Natl. Constitution, if it should subject them to be disfranchised. The States are the best Judges of the circumstances and temper of their own people.
Col. Mason. The force of habit is certainly not attended to by those gentlemen who wish for innovations on this point. Eight or nine States have extended the right of suffrage beyond the freeholders. What will the people there say, if they should be disfranchised. A power to alter the qualifications would be a dangerous power in the hands of the Legislature.
Mr. Butler. There is no right of which the people are more jealous than that of suffrage Abridgments of it tend to the same revolution as in Holland, where they have at length thrown all power into the hands of the Senates, who fill up vacancies themselves, and form a rank aristocracy.
Mr. Dickenson. had a very different idea of the tendency of vesting the right of suffrage in the freeholders of the Country. He considered them as the best guardians of liberty; And the restriction of the right to them as a necessary defence agst. the dangerous influence of those multitudes without property without principle, with which our Country like all others, will in time abound. As to the unpopularity of the innovation it was in his opinion chemirical. The great mass of our Citizens is composed at this time of freeholders, and will be pleased with it.
Mr Elseworth. How shall the freehold be defined? Ought not every man who pays a tax to vote for the representative who is to levy dispose of his money? Shall the wealthy merchants and manufacturers, who will bear a full share of the public burdens be not allowed a voice in the imposition of them — 〈taxation and representation ought to go together.〉
Mr. Govr. Morris. He had long learned not to be the dupe of words. The sound of Aristocracy therefore, had no effect on him. It was the thing, not the name, to which he was opposed, and one of his principal objections to the Constitution as it is now before us, is that it threatens this Country with an Aristocracy. The aristocracy will grow out of the House of Representatives. Give the votes to people who have no property, and they will sell them to the rich who will be able to buy them. We should not confine our attention to the present moment. The time is not distant when this Country will abound with mechanics manufacturers who will receive their bread from their employers. Will such men be the secure faithful Guardians of liberty? Will they be the impregnable barrier agst. aristocracy? — He was as little duped by the association of the words, “taxation Representation” — The man who does not give his vote freely is not represented. It is the man who dictates the vote. Children do not vote. Why? because they want prudence. because they have no will of their own. The ignorant the dependent can be as little trusted with the public interest. He did not conceive the difficulty of defining “freeholders” to be insuperable. Still less that the restriction could be unpopular. 9/10 of the people are at present freeholders and these will certainly be pleased with it. As to Merchts. c. if they have wealth value the right they can acquire it. If not they don’t deserve it.
Col. Mason. We all feel too strongly the remains of antient prejudices, and view things too much through a British Medium. A Freehold is the qualification in England, hence it is imagined to be the only proper one. The true idea in his opinion was that every man having evidence of attachment to permanent common interest with the Society ought to share in all its rights privileges. Was this qualification restrained to freeholders? Does no other kind of property but land evidence a common interest in the proprietor? does nothing besides property mark a permanent attachment. Ought the merchant, the monied man, the parent of a number of children whose fortunes are to be pursued in their own 〈Country〉, to be viewed as suspicious characters, and unworthy to be trusted with the common rights of their fellow Citizens
Mr. 〈Madison.〉 the right of suffrage is certainly one of the fundamental articles of republican Government, and ought not to be left to be regulated by the Legislature. A gradual abridgment of this right has been the mode in which Aristocracies have been built on the ruins of popular forms. Whether the Constitutional qualification ought to be a freehold, would with him depend much on the probable reception such a change would meet with in States where the right was now exercised by every description of people. In several of the States a freehold was now the qualification. Viewing the subject in its merits alone, the freeholders of the Country would be the safest depositories of Republican liberty. In future times a great majority of the people will not only be without landed, but any other sort of, property. These will either combine under the influence of their common situation; in which case, 15 the rights of property the public liberty, 16 〈will not be secure in their hands:〉 or which is more probable, they will become the tools of opulence ambition, in which case there will be equal danger on another side. The example of England has been misconceived (by Col Mason). A very small proportion of the Representatives are there chosen by freeholders. The greatest part are chosen by the Cities boroughs, in many of which the qualification of suffrage is as low as it is in any one of the U. S. and it was in 〈the boroughs Cities〉 rather than the Counties, that bribery most prevailed, the influence of the Crown on elections was most dangerously exerted. 17
Docr. Franklin. It is of great consequence that we shd. not depress the virtue public spirit of our common people; of which they displayed a great deal during the war, and which contributed principally to the favorable issue of it. He related the honorable refusal of the American seamen who were carried in great numbers into the British Prisons during the war, to redeem themselves from misery or to seek their fortunes, by entering on board the Ships of the Enemies to their Country; contrasting their patriotism with a contemporary instance in which the British seamen made prisoners by the Americans, readily entered on the ships of the latter on being promised a share of the prizes that might be made out of their own Country. This proceeded he said, from the different manner in which the common people were treated in America G. Britain. He did not think that the elected had any right in any case to narrow the privileges of the electors. He quoted as arbitrary the British Statute setting forth the danger of tumultuous meetings, and under that pretext, narrowing the right of suffrage to persons having freeholds of a certain value; observing that this Statute was soon followed by another under the succeeding Parliamt. subjecting the people who had no votes to peculiar labors hardships. He was persuaded also that such a restriction as was proposed would give great uneasiness in the populous States. The sons of a substantial farmer, not being themselves freeholders, would not be pleased at being disfranchised, and there are a great many persons of that description.
Mr. Mercer. The Constitution is objectionable in many points, but in none more than the present. He objected to the footing on which the qualification was put, but particularly to the mode of election by the people. The people can not know judge of the characters of Candidates. The worse possible choice will be made. He quoted the case of the Senate in Virga. as an example in point- The people in Towns can unite their votes in favor of one favorite; by that means always prevail over the people of the Country, who being dispersed will scatter their votes among a variety of candidates.
Mr. Rutlidge thought the idea of restraining the right of suffrage to the freeholders a very unadvised one. It would create division among the people make enemies of all those who should be excluded.
On the question for striking out as moved by Mr. Govr. Morris, from the word “qualifications” to the end of the III article
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. Pa. no. Del. ay. Md. divd. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. not prest. [Ayes — 1; noes — 7; divided — 1; absent — 1.]
Adjourned 18
3A — a. in all cases have a negative c — proposed to be altered so that the negative extend only to those legislative acts in the passage whereof each Br. has concurrent authority — It was remarked by Madison yt. the whole clause “each of which shall in all cases have a negative on the other.” might be struck out, and the Legislature wd. be well organised — This motion was agreed to, the words stricken out.
— B. Madison proposed omitting in the Constitution the Time when the Legislature shd. meet — G. Morris in favor of leaving the Time of meeting to the Legislature — He remarked yt. if the Time was fixed in the Constitution, when the Legisl. shd. meet, it wd. be broken for yy wd. not meet at the Time fixed —
Gorham — in favor of meeting once a year and fixing the period — he was for meeting to superintend the conduct of the executive —
Mason — In favor of an annual meeting — They are not only Legislators but they possess inquisitorial powers. They must meet frequently to inspect the Conduct of the public offices —
4. Art. — S. 1 — c. The clause of Qualifications of Electors — G. Morris proposed to strike out the Clause — and to leave it to the Legislature to establish the Qualifications of Electors Elected — or to add a Clause that the Legislat. may hereafter alter the Qualifications —
Elsworth — If the Legislature can alter the Qualifications, they may disqualify ¾ or any greater proportion from being Electors — This wd. go far in favor of Aristocracy — we are safe as it is — because the States have staked yr. Liberties on the Qualifications as yy now stand —
Dickenson — It is said yr. restraining by ye Constitution the rights of Election to Freeholders, is a step towards aristocracy — is this true, No. — we are safe by trusting the owners of the soil — the Owners of the Country — it will not be unpopular — because the Freeholders are the most numerous at this Time — The Danger to Free Governments has not been from Freeholders, but those who are not Freeholders — there is no Danger — because our Laws favor the Division of property — The Freehold will be parcelled among all the worthy men in the State — The Merchants Mechanicks are safe — They may become Freeholders besides they are represented in ye State Legislatures, which elect the Senate of the US — Elsuorth — Why confine Elections to Freeholders — The rule is this — he who pays and is governed ought to have a right to vote — there is no justice in supposing that Virtue Talents, are confined to Freeholders —
G. Morris — I disregard sounds — I am not alarmed with the word Aristocracy — but I dread the thing — I will oppose it — and for that reason I think I shall oppose this Constitution, because I think this constitution establishes an Aristocracy — there can be no Aristocracy if the Freeholders are Electors — but there will be, when a great rich man shall bring his indigent Dependents to vote in Elections — if you don’t establish a qualification of property, you will have an Aristocracy — Confing. ye. Electn. to Freeholders will not be unpopular because 9/10th of the Inhabs. are Freeholders —
Mason — I think every person of full age and who can give evidence of a common Interest with the community shd. be an Elector — under this definition has a Freeholder alone ys. common Interest —? I think the Father of a Family has this interest — his Children will remain — this is a natural Interest — a Farm other property is an artificial interest — we are governed by our prejudices in favr. of Engd — there a Twig, a Turf is the Elector —
Madison — I am in favr. of the rigt. of Election being confind. to Freeholders — we are not governed by British Attachments — because the Knights of Shires are elected by Freeholders, but the Members from the Cities Boroughs are elected by persons qualified by as small property as in any country and wholly without Freeholds — where is the Corruption in England: where is the Crown Influence seen — in the Cities Boroughs not in the Counties —
4 A. S. 1
Franklin — I am afraid by depositing the rights of Elections in the Freeholders it will be injurious to the lower class of Freemen — this class have hardy Virtues and gt. Integrity — the late war is a glorious Testimony in favor of plebian Virtue — Military men are sensible of this Truth — I know yt our Seamen prisoners in England refused all Allurements to draw them from yr. Allegiance — they were threatened with Halters but refused — this was not the case with the Brith. Seamen — they entered the American service pointed out where they might make more marine prisoners — This is the reason — the Americans were all free and equal to any of yr. fellow Citizens — the British once were so — in antient Times every freeman was an Elector — but finally they made a law requiring an Elector to be a Freeholder — this was only in the Shires — The consequence was that the residue of Inhabitants were disgraced — in the next parliament they made a law authorising the Justices to fix the price of Labor — to compel any person not an Elector or Freeholder to labor for a Freeholder at the stated price or to be imprisoned — the English common people from that period lost a large portion of patriotism — 19
Mr. Martin set out for New York on this day so we were without his concurrence in the propositions. 20
Shewed these propositions to Mr. Carroll Mr. Jenifer and Mr. Mercer in convention. They said in general terms that they believed they should accord with them. I observed to Mr. Carrol that we would meet again in the evening and talk over the subject. 21
The business of the Convention proceeded.
The preamble or caption and the 1. and 2. article passed without debate, the 3 article was amended so as to leave it with the legislature to appoint after the first meeting, the day for the succeeding meetings.
The IV article gave rise to a long debate, respecting the qualifications of the electors.
Mr. Dickinson contended for confining the rights of election in the first branch to free holders. No one could be considered as having an interest in the government unless he possessed some of the soil.
The fear of an aristocracy was a theoretical fiction. The owners of the soil could have no interest distinct from the country. There was no reason to dread a few men becoming lords of such an extent of territory as to enable them to govern at their pleasure.
Governeur Morris — thought that wise men should not suffer themselves to be misguided by sound. If the suffrage was to be open to all freemen — the government would indubitably be an aristocracy. The system was a system of Aristocracy. It put it in the power of opulent men whose business created numerous dependents to rule at all elections. Hence so soon as we erected large manufactories and our towns became more populous — wealthy merchants and manufacturers would elect the house of representatives. This was an aristocracy. This could only be avoided by confining the suffrage to free holders. Mr. Maddison supported similar sentiments.
The old ideas of taxation and representation were opposed to such reasoning. 22
Doctor Franklin spoke on this occasion. He observed that in time of war a country owed much to the lower class of citizens. Our late war was an instance of what they could suffer and perform. If denied the right of suffrage it would debase their spirit and detatch them from the interest of the country. One thousand of our seamen were confined in English prisons — had bribes offered them to go on board English vessels which they rejected. An English ship was taken by one of our men of war. It was proposed to the English sailors to join ours in a cruise and share alike with thm in the captures. They immediately agreed to the proposal. This difference of behavior arises from 23 the operation of freedom in America, and the laws in England. One British Statute excluded a number of subjects from a suffrage — These immediately became slaves —
At thee o’clock the house adjourned without coming to any issue.
At five o’clock in the evening I went to Mr. Carrolls lodging to confer with my colleagues on the points I had submitted to their consideration. I found Mr. Carroll alone when We entered upon their merits. He agreed with me that the deputation should oppose a resolute face to the 5 sect of the IV article, 24 and that they ought to reject it. He appeared fully sensible of its tendency — That lodging in the house of representatives the sole right of raising and appropriating money, upon which the Senate had only a negative, gave to that branch an inordinate power in the constitution, which must end in its destruction. That without equal powers they were not an equal check upon each other — and that this was the chance that appeared for obtained an equal suffrage, or a suffrage equal to wht we had in the present confedn.
We accorded also that the deputation should in no event consent to the 6 sect. of VII article. 25 He saw plainly that as a quorum consisted of a majority of the members of each house — that the dearest interest of trade were under the controul of four States or of 17 membes in one branch and 8 in the other branch. 26
We adverted also to the 1st sect of the VII article which enabled the legislature to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, and to regulate commerce among the several States. We almost shuddered at the fate of the commerce of Maryland should we be unable to make any change in this extraordinary power.
We agreed that our deputation ought never to assent to this article in its present form or without obtaining such a provision as I proposed.
I now begged his particular attention to my last proposition. 27 By the XXII article we were called upon to agree that the system should be submitted to a convention chosen in each State under the recommendation of its legislature. And that a less number of conventions than the whole agreeing to the system should be sufficient to organise the constitution.
We had taken an oath to support our constitution and frame of government. We had been empowered by a legislature legally constituted to revise the confederation and fit it for the exigencies of government, and preservation of the union. Could we do this business in a manner contrary to our constitution? I feared (This 28 was said first I thought — then I feared 29 ) we could not. If we relinquished any of the rights or powers of our government to the U. S. of America, we could no otherwise agree to that relinquishment than in the mode our constitution prescribed for making changes or alterations in it.
Mr. Carrol said he had felt his doubts respecting the propriety of this article as it respected Maryland; but he hoped we should be able to get over this difficulty.
Mr. Jenifer now came in to whom Mr. Carroll repeated what we had said upon my propositions and our determinations. Mr. Jenifer agreed to act in unison with us but seemed to have vague ideas of the mischiefs of the system as it stood in the report.
I wished to impress him with the necessity to support us, and touched upon some popular points.
I suggested to him the unfavorable impression it would make upon the people on account of its expence — An army and navy was to be raised and supported, expensive courts of judicature to be maintained, and a princely president to be provided for etc — That it was plain that the revenue for these purposes was to be chiefly drawn from commerce. That Maryland in this case would have this resource taken from her, without the expences of her own government being lessened. — That what would be raised from her commerce and by indirect taxation would far exceed the proportion she would be called upon to pay under the present confederation.
An increase of taxes, and a decrease in the objects of taxation as they respected a revenue for the State would not prove very palatable to our people, who might think that the whole objects of taxation were hardly sufficient to discharge the States obligations.
Mr. Mercer came in, and said he would go with the deputation on the points in question. He would wish it to be understood however, that he did not like the system, that it was weak — That he would produce a better one since the convention had undertaken to go radically to work, that perhaps he would not be supported by any one, but if he was not, he would go with the stream —
On the question to agree to the first section of the fourth article as reported
it passed unanimously in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to strike out the word “three” and to insert the word “seven” in the second section of the fourth article
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 10; noes — 1.]
It was moved and seconded to amend the second section of the fourth article by inserting the word “of” instead of “in” after the word “citizen” and the words “an inhabitant” instead of the words “a resident”
which passed in the affirmative
[To strike out the word “of” and to substitute “in” after resident in the 2 sect. 4 article Ayes — 4; noes — 7.
To postpone Mr motion in order to take up Mr Dickinsons Ayes — 3; noes — 8.
To insert the word “three” Ayes — 2; noes — 9.
To add One year residence before the election Ayes — 4;
noes 6; divided — 1.] 1
On the question to agree to the second section of the fourth article as amended
it passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 11; noes — 0.]
It was moved and seconded to strike out the word “five” and to insert the word “six” before the words “in South Carolina” in the third section of the fourth article
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]
On the question to agree to the third section of the fourth article as reported
it passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to alter the latter clause of the fourth section of the fourth article so as to read as follows namely
“according to the rule herein after made for direct taxation not exceeding the rate of One for every forty thousand”
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.]
It was moved and seconded to add the following clause to the fourth section of the fourth article namely
“Provided that every State shall have at least one representative”
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to insert the word “free” before the word “inhabitants” in the fourth section of the fourth article
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 1; noes — 10.]
On the question to agree to the fourth section of the fourth article as amended
it passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to strike out the fifth section of the fourth article
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 7; noes — 4.]
And then the House adjourned till to-morrow at 11 o’clock A. M.
New Hampshire | Massachusetts | Rhode Island | Connecticut | New York | New Jersey | Pennsylvania | Delaware | Maryland | Virginia | North Carolina | South Carolina | Georgia | Questions | Ayes | Noes | Divided | |
[245] | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | To strike out “three” and insert seven in ye 2 Sect 4 art. | 10 | 1 | |||
[246] | no | no | no | aye | no | no | aye | aye | no | aye | no | To strike out the word “of” and to substitute “in” after resident in the 2 sect. 4 article | 4 | 7 | |||
[247] | no | no | no | no | no | no | aye | no | no | aye | aye | To postpone Mr motion in order to take up Mr Dickinsons | 3 | 8 | |||
[248] | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | aye | aye | To insert the word “three” | 2 | 9 | |||
[249] | no | no | no | aye | no | no | dd | no | aye | aye | aye | To add One year residence before the election | 4 | 6 | 1 | ||
[250] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | To agree to ye 2 clause of ye 2 sect. | |||||
[251] | no | no | no | no | no | aye | no | no | aye | aye | aye | To give six representatives to So Carolina | 4 | 7 | |||
[252] | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | To alter the latter clause of the 4 sect. of the 4. Art. “according to the rule herein after provided for Direct taxation” | 9 | 2 | |||
[253] | no | no | no | aye | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | To insert the word “free” before inhabitants 4 sect. 4 article | 1 | 10 | |||
[254] | no | no | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | To strike out the 5 section 4 article | 7 | 4 |
Art: IV. Sect. 1. — Mr. Mercer expressed his dislike of the whole plan, and his opinion that it never could succeed. 2
Mr. Ghorum. He had never seen any inconveniency from allowing such as were not freeholders to vote, though it had long been tried. The elections in Phila. N. York Boston where the Merchants, Mechanics vote are at least as good as those made by freeholders only. The case in England was not accurately stated yesterday (by Mr. Madison) The Cities large towns are not the seat of Crown influence corruption. These prevail in the Boroughs, and not on account of the right which those who are not freeholders have to vote, but of the smallness of the number who vote. The people have been long accustomed to this right in various parts of America, and will never allow it to be abridged. We must consult their rooted prejudices if we expect their concurrence in our propositions.
Mr. Mercer did not object so much to an election by the people at large including such as were not freeholders, as to their being left to make their choice without any guidance. He hinted that Candidates ought to be nominated by the State Legislatures.
On question for agreeing to Art: IV- Sect. 1 it passd. nem. con.
Art. IV. Sect. 2. taken up. 3
Col. Mason was for opening a wide door for emigrants; but did not chuse to let foreigners and adventurers make laws for us govern us. Citizenship for three years was not enough for ensuring that local knowledge which ought to be possessed by the Representative. This was the principal ground of his objection to so short a term. It might also happen that a rich foreign Nation, for example Great Britain, might send over her tools who might bribe their way into the Legislature for insidious purposes. He moved that “seven” years instead of “three,” be inserted. 4
Mr. Govr. Morris 2ded. the motion, on the question, All the States agreed to it except Connecticut.
Mr. Sherman moved to strike out the word “resident” and insert “inhabitant,” as less liable to misconstruction.
Mr M〈adison〉 2ded. the motion. both were vague, but the latter least so in common acceptation, and would not exclude persons absent occasionally for a considerable time on public or private business. Great disputes had been raised in Virga. concerning the meaning of residence as a qualification of Representatives which were determined more according to the affection or dislike to the man 〈in question〉, than 〈to〉 any fixt interpretation of the word.
Mr. Wilson preferred “inhabitant.”
Mr. Govr. Morris was opposed to both and for requiring nothing more than a freehold. He quoted great disputes in N. York occasioned by these terms, which were decided by the arbitrary will of the majority. Such a regulation is not necessary. People rarely chuse a nonresident — It is improper as in the 1st. branch, the people at large, 5 not the States 5 are represented.
Mr. Rutlidge urged moved that a residence of 7 years shd. be required in the State Wherein the Member shd. be elected. An emigrant from N. England to S. C. or Georgia would know little of its affairs and could not be supposed to acquire a thorough knowledge in less time.
Mr. Read reminded him that we were now forming a Natil Govt and such a regulation would correspond little with the idea that we were one people.
Mr. Wilson — enforced the same consideration.
Mr. 〈Madison〉 suggested the case of new States in the West, which could have perhaps no representation on that plan.
Mr. Mercer. Such a regulation would present a greater alienship among the States than existed under the old federal system. It would interweave local prejudices State distinctions in the very Constitution which is meant to cure them. He mentioned instances of violent disputes raised in Maryland concerning the term “residence”
Mr Elseworth thought seven years of residence was by far too long a term: but that some fixt term of previous residence would be proper. He thought one year would be sufficient, but seemed to have no objection to three years.
Mr. Dickenson proposed 〈that it should read〉 “inhabitant actually resident for — year.” This would render the meaning less indeterminate.
Mr. Wilson. If a short term should be inserted in the blank, so strict an expression might be construed to exclude the members of the Legislature, who could not be said to be actual residents in their States whilst at the Seat of the Genl. Government.
Mr. Mercer. It would certainly exclude men, who had once been inhabitants, and returning from residence elswhere to resettle in their original State; although a want of the necessary knowledge could not in such case be presumed.
Mr. Mason thought 7 years too long, but would never agree to part with the principle. It is a valuable principle. He thought it a defect in the plan that the Representatives would be too few to bring with them all the local knowledge necessary. If residence be not required, Rich men of neighbouring States, may employ with success the means of corruption in some particular district and thereby get into the public Councils after having failed in their own State. This is the practice in the boroughs of England.
On the question for postponing in order to consider Mr Dickinsons motion
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]
On the question for inserting “inhabitant” in place of “resident” — Agd. to nem. con.
Mr. Elseworth Col. Mason move to insert “one year” for previous inhabitancy
Mr. Williamson liked the Report as it stood. He thought “resident” a good eno’ term. He was agst requiring any period of previous residence. New residents if elected will be most zealous to Conform to the will of their constituents, as their conduct will be watched with a more jealous eye.
Mr. Butler Mr. Rutlidge moved “three years” instead of “one year” 〈for previous inhabitancy〉
On the question for 3 years.
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay [Ayes — 2; noes — 9.]
On the question for “1 year”
N. H. no — Mas — no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. divd. Va. no- N- C. ay- S. C. ay. Geo — ay [Ayes — 4; noes — 6; divided — 1.]
Art. IV- Sect. 2. As amended in manner preceding, was agreed to nem. con.
Art: IV. Sect. 3. “taken up. 6
Genl. Pinkney Mr. Pinkney moved that the number of representatives allotted to S. Carola. be “six”
On the question.
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no. 〈Delaware ay〉 7 Md. no. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]
〈The 3. Sect of Art: IV was then agreed to.〉 7
Art: IV. Sect. 4. taken up. 8
Mr. Williamson moved to strike out “according to the provisions hereinafter made” and to insert 〈the〉 words 〈“according〉 “to the rule hereafter to be provided for direct taxation” — See Art VII. sect. 3.
On the question for agreeing to Mr. Williamson’s amendment
N. H- ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. no. Md. ay. Va ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.]
Mr. King wished to know what influence the vote just passed was meant have on the succeeding part of the Report, concerning the admission of slaves into the rule of Representation. He could not reconcile his mind to the article if it was to prevent objections to the latter part. The admission of slaves was a most grating circumstance to his mind, he believed would be so to a great part of the people of America. He had not made a strenuous opposition to it heretofore because he had hoped that this concession would have produced a readiness which had not been manifested, to strengthen the Genl. Govt. and to mark a full confidence in it. The Report under consideration had by the tenor of it, put an end to all these hopes. In two great points the hands of the Legislature were absolutely tied. The importation of slaves could not be prohibited — exports could not be taxed. Is this reasonable? What are the great objects of the Genl. System? 1. difence agst. foreign invasion. 2. agst. internal sedition. Shall all the States then be bound to defend each; shall each be at liberty to introduce a weakness which will render defence more difficult? Shall one part of the U. S. be bound to defend another part, and that other part be at liberty not only to increase its own danger, but to withhold the compensation for the burden? If slaves are to be imported shall not the exports produced by their labor, supply a revenue the better to enable the Genl. Govt. to defend their Masters? — There was so much inequality unreasonableness in all this, that the people of the N〈orthern〉 States could never be reconciled 〈to it〉. No candid man could undertake to justify it to them. He had hoped that some accommodation wd. have taken place on this subject; that at least a time wd. have been limited for the importation of slaves. He never could agree to let them be imported without limitation then be represented in the Natl. Legislature. Indeed he could so little persuade himself of the rectitude of such a practice, that he was not sure he could assent to it under any circumstances. At all events, either slaves should not be represented, or exports should be taxable.
Mr. Sherman regarded the slave-trade as iniquitous; but the point of representation having been Settled after much difficulty deliberation, he did not think himself bound to make opposition; especially as the present article as amended did not preclude any arrangement whatever on that point in another place of the Report. 9
Mr. 〈Madison〉 objected to 1 for every 40,000 inhabitants 〈as a perpetual rule〉. 10 The future increase of population if the Union shd. be permanent, will render the number of Representatives excessive. 11
Mr. Ghorum. It is not to be supposed that the Govt will last so long as to produce this effect. Can it be supposed that this vast Country including the Western territory will 150 years hence remain one nation?
Mr. Elseworth. If the Govt. should continue so long, alterations may be made in the Constitution in the manner proposed in a subsequent article.
Mr Sherman Mr. 〈Madison〉 moved to insert the words “not exceeding” before the words “1 for every 40,000, which was agreed to nem. con.
Mr Govr. Morris moved to insert “free” before the word “inhabitants.” Much he said would depend on this point. He never would concur in upholding domestic slavery. It was a nefarious institution — It was the curse of heaven on the States where it prevailed. Compare the free regions of the Middle States, where a rich noble cultivation marks the prosperity happiness of the people, with the misery poverty which overspread the barren wastes of Va. Maryd. the other States having slaves. 〈Travel thro’ ye whole Continent you behold the prospect continually varying with the appearance disappearance of slavery. The moment you leave ye E. Sts. enter N. York, the effects of the institution become visible; Passing thro’ the Jerseys and entering Paevery criterion of superior improvement witnesses the change. Proceed Southwdly, every step you take thro’ ye great regions of slaves, presents a desert increasing with ye increasing proportion of these wretched beings.〉 12
Upon what principle is it that the slaves shall be computed in the representation? Are they men? Then make them Citizens let them vote? Are they property? Why then is no other property included? The Houses in this City (Philada.) are worth more than all the wretched slaves which cover the rice swamps of South Carolina. The admission of slaves into the Representation when fairly explained comes to this: that the inhabitant of Georgia and S. C. who goes to the Coast of Africa, and in defiance of the most sacred laws of humanity tears away his fellow creatures from their dearest connections dam〈n〉s them to the most cruel bondages, shall have more votes in a Govt. instituted for protection of the rights of mankind, than the Citizen of Pa or N. Jersey who views with a laudable horror, so nefarious a practice. He would add that Domestic slavery is the most prominent feature in the aristocratic countenance of the proposed Constitution. The vassalage of the poor has ever been the favorite offspring of Aristocracy. And What is the proposed compensation to the Northern States for a sacrifice of every principle of right, of every impulse of humanity. They are to bind themselves to march their militia for the defence of the S. States; for their defence agst those very slaves of whom they complain. They must supply vessels seamen, in case of foreign Attack. The Legislature will have indefinite power to tax them by excises, and duties on imports: both of which will fall heavier on them than on the Southern inhabitants; for the bohea tea used by a Northern freeman, will pay more tax than the whole consumption of the miserable slave, which consists of nothing more than his physical subsistence and the rag that covers his nakedness. On the other side the Southern States are not to be restrained from importing fresh supplies of wretched Africans, at once to increase the danger of attack, and the difficulty of defence; nay they are to be encouraged to it by an assurance of having their votes in the Natl Govt increased in proportion. and are at the same time to have their exports their slaves exempt from all contributions for the public service. Let it not be said that direct taxation is to be proportioned to representation. It is idle to suppose that the Genl Govt. can stretch its hand directly into the pockets of the people scattered over so vast a Country. They can only do it through the medium of exports imports excises. For what then are all these sacrifices to be made? He would sooner submit himself to a tax for paying for all the Negroes in the U. States. than saddle posterity with such a Constitution.
Mr. Dayton 2ded. the motion. He did it he said that his sentiments on the subject might appear whatever might be the fate of the amendment.
Mr. Sherman. did not regard the admission of the Negroes into the ratio of representation, as liable to such insuperable objections. It was the freemen of the Southn. States who were in fact to be represented according to the taxes paid by them, and the Negroes are only included in the Estimate of the taxes. This was his idea of the matter.
Mr Pinkney, considered the fisheries the Western frontier as more burdensome to the U. S. than the slaves — He thought this could be demonstrated if the occasion were a proper one.
Mr Wilson. thought the motion premature — An agreement to the clause would be no bar to the object of it.
Question On Motion to insert “free” before “inhabitants.”
N. H- no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 1; noes — 10.]
On the suggestion of Mr. Dickenson 〈the words〉, “provided that each State shall have one representative at least.” — were added nem. con.
Art. IV. sect. 4. as amended was Agreed to nem. con.
Art. IV. sect. 5. taken up 13
Mr. Pinkney moved to strike out Sect. 5, As giving no peculiar advantage to the House of Representatives, and as clogging the Govt. If the Senate can be trusted with the many great powers proposed, it surely may be trusted with that of originating money bills.
Mr. Ghorum. was agst. allowing the Senate to originate; but 〈only〉 to amend.
Mr. Govr. Morris. It is particularly proper that the Senate shd. have the right of originating money bills. They will sit constantly. will consist of a smaller number. and will be able to prepare such bills with due correctness; and so as to prevent delay of business in the other House.
Col. Mason was unwilling to travel over this ground again. To strike out the section, was to unhinge the compromise of which it made a part. The duration of the Senate made it improper. He does not object to that duration. On the Contrary he approved of it. But joined with the smallness of the number, it was an argument 〈against〉 adding this to the other great powers vested in that body. His idea of an Aristocracy was that it was the governt. of the few over the many. An aristocratic body, like the screw in mechanics, workig. its way by slow degrees, and holding fast whatever it gains, should ever be suspected of an encroaching tendency — The purse strings should never be put into its hands.
Mr Mercer, considered the exclusive power of originating Money bills as so great an advantage, that it rendered the equality of votes in the Senate ideal of no consequence.
Mr. Butler was for adhering to the principle which had been settled.
Mr. Wilson was opposed to it on its merits, with out regard to the compromise
Mr. Elseworth did not think the clause of any consequence, but as it was thought of consequence by some members from the larger States, he was willing it should stand.
Mr. 〈Madison〉 was for striking it out: considering it as of no advantage to the large States as fettering the Govt. and as a source of injurious altercations between the two Houses.
On the question for striking out “Sect. 5. art. IV”
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 7; noes — 4.]
Adjd.
4. A. 1 — c. The Qualifications of Electors — Gorham, The Qualifications stand well — Gentlemen who say that the Elections in the Cities are unsafe are in an Error — The Members of London, Bristol Liverpool are as independent as any of the Members of the Shires — The King has no Influence in ye. City Elections — He buys the boroughs and he buys them of the Freeholders — there will be no Danger in allowing the Merchants Mechanicks to be Electors — they have been Electors Time immemorial in this country as well as in England — We must regard the Habits prejudices of the people — if you propose a window Tax in N. Eng. you wd. offend the people — If the minister in England shd. propose a poll-Tax he wd. also offend the People — so if you deprive the Mercht. Mechank. of the Rights of Election you will offend them —
— 2d. Resident — proposed to change the word to Inhabitant — Morris G. proposed Freeholder — Rutledge — Resident for seven years in the State where he is elected — Mason — I am in favor of Residency — if you do not require it — a rich man may send down to the Districts of a state in wh. he does not reside and purchase an Election for his Dependt. We shall have the Eng. Borough corruption — a question was put negatived by 8 of 11 states to insert Inhabitant for 3 yrs 14 — afterwards the question for One yr. before Election was negatived by 6 of 11 — finally the wd. was established as it stands unanimously — 15
The 2 sect. of the IV. article was amended to read 7 insted of three years. It was proposed to add to the section “at least one year preceding his election”. negatived. Maryland divided. Mrs. Mercer and Carrol neg. Mr. Jenifer and myself aff.
The fifth section giving the sole power of raising and appropriating money to the house of representatives expunged.
On the question to agree to the 6 section of the 4. article as reported.
it passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the 7. section of the 4 article as reported
it passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to insert the following words in the third clause of the 5 article after the word “executive”
“of the State, in the representation of which the vacancies shall happen”
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to strike out the 3rd clause of the 1st section of the 5. article
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 1; noes — 8; divided — 1.] 1
It was moved and seconded to add the following words to the 3rd clause of the 1st section of the 5 article, namely
“unless other provision shall be made by the Legislature”
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 4; noes — 6.]
It was moved and seconded to alter the 3rd. clause in the 1st section of the 5. article so as to read as follows, namely
“vacancies happening by refusals to accept resignations or otherwise may be supplied by the Legislature of the State in the representation of which such vacancies shall happen or by the executive thereof until the next meeting of the Legislature”
Which passed in the affirmative
On the motion to agree to the three first clauses of the 1st section of the 5th article
it passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 8; noes — 2; divided — 1.]
It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the last clause in the first section of the 5. article
which was passed in the negative [Ayes — 2; noes — 8; divided — 1.]
On the question to agree to the last clause in the 1st section of the 5. article
it passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to insert the following words after the word “after” in the 2nd section of the 5 article namely
“they shall be assembled in consequence of”
which passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the 2nd section of the 5. article as amended.
it passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to strike out the word “four” and to insert the word “fourteen” in the 3 section of the 5 article
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]
It was moved and seconded to strike out the word “four” and to insert the word “fourteen” 2 in the 3 section of the 5 article
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]
It was moved and seconded to strike out the word “four” and to insert the word “Ten” in the 3 section of the 5 article
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]
It was moved and seconded to strike out the word “four” and to insert the word “nine” in the 3rd section of the 5 article
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 6; noes — 4; divided — 1.]
It was moved and seconded to amend the 3rd section of the 5 article by inserting the word “of” after the word “citizen” and the words “an inhabitant” instead of the words “a resident”
which passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the 3rd section of the 5 article as amended
it passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the 4th section of the 5. article as reported
it passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to strike out the words “each House” and to insert the words “the House of representatives” in the 1st section of the 6th article
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 1; noes — 10.]
It was moved and seconded to insert the word “respectively” after the word “State” in the 1st section of the 6. article
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to alter the second clause in the first section of the 6th article so as to read as follows namely
“but regulations in each of the foregoing cases may, at any time, be made or altered by the Legislature of the United States”
which passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the 1st section of the 6th article as amended
it passed in the affirmative.
And then the House adjourned till to-morrow at 11 o’Clock A. M.
New Hampshire | Massachusetts | Rhode Island | Connecticut | New York | New Jersey | Pennsylvania | Delaware | Maryland | Virginia | North Carolina | South Carolina | Georgia | Questions | Ayes | Noes | Divided | |
[255] | no | no | no | no | aye | dd | no | no | no | no | To strike out the 3rd clause of the 1st sect. of the 5 article | 1 | 8 | 1 | |||
[256] | no | no | no | no | no | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | To add the words to ye 1st sect 5 art. unless other provision shall be made by the Legislature | 4 | 6 | ||||
[257] | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | dd | aye | To agree to the three first clauses of the 1st sect. of the 5 article | 8 | 2 | 1 | ||
[258] | dd | no | no | no | no | no | no | aye | aye | no | no | To postpone the last clause in the 1st section of the 5 article | 2 | 8 | 1 | ||
[259] | aye | no | no | aye | no | no | no | no | no | aye | aye | fourteen years citizenship to qualify to a seat in the Senate. | 4 | 7 | |||
[260] | aye | no | no | aye | no | no | no | no | no | aye | aye | Thirteen years | 4 | 7 | |||
[261] | aye | no | no | aye | no | no | no | no | no | aye | aye | Ten years | 4 | 7 | |||
[262] | aye | no | no | aye | no | aye | no | aye | dd | aye | aye | Nine years. | 6 | 4 | 1 | ||
[263] | no | no | no | aye | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | To strike out the words “each House” to insert the words the Ho of representves in the 1st sect of the 6 article | 1 | 10 |
Art: IV. sect. 6. Mr. Randolph expressed his dissatisfaction at the disagreement yesterday to sect 5. concerning money bills, as endangering the success of the plan, and extremely objectionable in itself; and gave notice that he should move for a reconsideration of the vote.
Mr. Williamson said he had formed a like intention.
Mr. Wilson, gave notice that he shd. move to reconsider the vote, requiring seven instead of three years of Citizenship as a qualification of candidates for the House of Representatives.
Art. IV. sect. 6 7. 3 Agreed to nem. con.
Art. V. sect. 1. taken up. 4
Mr. Wilson objected to vacancies in the Senate being supplied by the Executives of the States. It was unnecessary as the Legislatures will meet so frequently. It removes the appointment too far from the people; the Executives in most of the States being elected by the Legislatures. As he had always thought the appointment of the Executives by the Legislative department wrong: so it was still more so that the Executive should elect into the Legislative department.
Mr. Randolph though it necessary 〈in order〉 to prevent inconvenient chasms in the Senate. In some States the Legislatures meet but once a year. As the Senate will have more power consist of a smaller number than the other House, vacancies there will be of more consequence. The Executives might be safely trusted 〈he thought with the appointment for so short a time.〉
Mr. Elseworth. It is only said that the Executive may supply vacancies. When the Legislative meeting happens to be near, the power will not be exerted. As there will be but two members from a State vacancies may be of great moment.
Mr. Williamson. Senators may resign or not accept. This provision is therefore absolutely necessary.
On the question for striking out “vacancies shall be supplied by Executives
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Md. divd. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 1; noes — 8; divided — 1.]
Mr. Williamson moved to insert after “vacancies shall be supplied by the Executives”, the following words “unless other provision shall be made by the Legislature” (of the State).
Mr. Elseworth. He was willing to trust the Legislature, or the Executive of a State, but 〈not〉 to give the former a discretion to refer appointments for the Senate to whom they pleased.
Question on Mr Williamson’s motion
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no. Md. ay. Va. no. N- C. ay. S. C. ay- Geo. ay. [Ayes — 4; noes — 6.]
Mr. 〈Madison〉 in order to prevent doubts whether resignations could be made by Senators, or whether they could refuse to accept, moved to 〈strike out the words〉 after “vacancies”. 〈 insert〉 the words “happening by refusals to accept, resignations 〈or otherwise may be supplied by the Legislature of the State in the representation of which such vacancies shall happen, or by the Executive thereof until the next meeting of the Legislature”〉 5
Mr. Govr. Morris this is absolutely necessary. otherwise, as members chosen into the Senate are disqualified from being appointed to any office by sect. 9. of this art: it will be in the power of a Legislature by appointing a man a Senator agst. his consent, to deprive the U. S. of his services.
The motion of Mr. 〈Madison〉 was agreed to nem. con.
Mr. Randolph called for a division of the Section, so as to leave a distinct question on the last words, “each 〈member〉 6 shall have one vote”. He wished this last sentence to be postponed until the reconsideration should have taken place on sect. 5. Art. IV. concerning money bills. If that section should not be reinstated his plan would be to vary the representation in the Senate.
Mr. Strong concurred in Mr. Randolphs ideas on this point
Mr. Read did not consider the section as to money bills of any advantage to the larger States and had voted for striking it out as 〈being〉 viewed in the same light by the larger States. If it was considered by them as of any value, and as a condition of the equality of votes in the Senate, he had no objection to its being re-instated.
Mr. Wilson — Mr. Elseworth Mr. — 〈Madison〉 urged that it was of 〈no〉 advantage to the larger States. and that it might be a dangerous source of contention between the two Houses. All the principal powers of the Natl. Legislature had some relation to money.
Docr. Franklin, considered the two clauses, the originating of money bills, and the equality of votes in the Senate, as essentially connected by the compromise which had been agreed to.
Col. Mason said this was not the time for discussing this point. When the originating of money bills shall be reconsidered, he thought it could be demonstrated that it was of essential importance to restrain the right to the House of Representatives the immediate choice of the people.
Mr. Williamson. The State of N. C. had agreed to an equality in the Senate, merely in consideration that money bills should be confined to the other House: and he was surprised to see the smaller States forsaking the condition on which they had received their equality.
Question on the Section 1. down to the last sentence
N. H ay. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. no- * Del. ay. Md. ay. 〈Virga ay〉 N. C. no. S. C. divd. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 7; noes — 3; divided — 1.]
Mr. Randolph moved that the last sentence “each 〈member〉 7 shall have one vote.” be postponed
It was observed that this could not be necessary; as in case the section as to originating bills should not be reinstated, and a revision of the Constitution should ensue, it wd. still be proper that the members should 〈vote〉 per capita. A postponement of the preceding sentence allowing to each State 2 members wd. have been more proper.
Mr. Mason, did not mean to propose a change of this mode of voting per capita in any event. But as there might be other modes proposed, he saw no impropriety in postponing the sentence. Each State may have two members, 〈and〉 yet may have 〈unequal〉 8 votes. He said that unless the exclusive originating of money bills should be restored to the House of Representatives, he should, not from obstinacy, but duty and conscience, oppose throughout the equality of Representation in the Senate.
Mr. Govr. Morris. Such declarations were he supposed, addressed to the smaller States in order to alarm them for their equality in the Senate, and induce them agst. their judgments, to concur in restoring the section concerning money bills. He would declare in his turn that as he saw no prospect of amending the Constitution of the Senate considered the Section 〈relating to money bills〉 as intrinsically bad, he would adhere to the section establishing the equality at all events.
Mr. Wilson. It seems to have been supposed by some that the section concerning money bills is desirable to the large States. The fact was that two of those States (Pa. Va) had uniformly voted agst. it without reference to any other part of the system.
Mr. Randolph, urged as Col. Mason had done that the sentence under consideration was connected with that relating to money 〈bills〉, and might possibly be affected by the result of the motion for reconsidering the latter. That the postponement was therefore 〈not〉 improper.
Question for postponing “each member shall have one vote.”
N. H. divd. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 2; noes — 8; divided — 1.]
〈The words were then agreed to as part of the section.〉 9
Mr. Randolph then gave notice that he should move to reconsider this whole Sect: 1. Art. V. as connected with the 5. Sect. art. IV. as to which he had already given such notice.
Art. V. sect. 2d. taken up. 10
Mr. Govr. Morris moved to insert after the words “immediately after”, the following “they shall be assembled in consequence of” which was agreed to nem. con. as was then the whole sect 2.
Art: V. sect. 3. taken up. 11
Mr. Govr. Morris moved to insert 14 instead of 4 years citizenship as a qualification for Senators; urging the danger of admitting strangers into our public Councils. Mr. Pinkney 2ds. him
Mr. Elseworth. was opposed to the motion as discouraging meritorious aliens from emigrating to this Country.
Mr. Pinkney. As the Senate is to have the power of making treaties managing our foreign affairs, there is peculiar danger and impropriety in opening its door to those who have foreign attachments. He quoted the jealousy of the Athenians on this subject who made it death for any stranger to intrude his voice into their legislative proceedings.
Col. Mason highly approved of the policy of the motion. Were it not that many not natives of this Country had acquired great merit during the revolution, he should be for restraining the eligibility into the Senate, to natives.
Mr. 〈Madison〉 was not averse to some restrictions on this subject; but could never agree to the proposed amendment. He thought any restriction 〈however〉 in the Constitution 12 unnecessary, and improper. unnecessary; because the Natl. Legislre. is to have the right of regulating naturalization, and can by virtue thereof fix different periods of residence as conditions of enjoying different privileges of Citizenship: Improper: because it will give a tincture of illiberality to the Constitution: because it will put it out of the power of the Natl Legislature even by special acts of naturalization to confer the full rank of Citizens on meritorious strangers because it will discourage the most desirable class of people from emigrating to the U. S. Should the proposed Constitution have the intended effect of giving stability reputation to our Govts. great numbers of respectable Europeans; men who love liberty and wish to partake its blessings, will be ready to transfer their fortunes hither. All such would feel the mortification of being marked with suspicious incapacitations though they sd. not covet the public honors He was not apprehensive that any dangerous number of strangers would be appointed by the State Legislatures, if they were left at liberty to do so: nor that foreign powers would make use of strangers as instruments for their purposes. Their bribes would be expended on men whose circumstances would rather stifle than excite jealousy watchfulness in the public.
Mr. Butler was decidely opposed to the admission of foreigners without a long residence in the Country. They bring with them, not only attachments to other Countries; but ideas of Govt. so distinct from ours that in every point of view they are dangerous. He acknowledged that if he himself had been called into public life within a short time after his coming to America, his foreign habits opinions attachments would have rendered him an improper agent in public affairs. He mentioned the great strictness observed in Great Britain on this subject.
Docr. Franklin was not agst. a reasonable time, but should be very sorry to see any thing like illiberality inserted in the Constitution. The people in Europe are friendly to this Country. Even in the Country with which we have been lately at war, We have now had during the war, a great many friends not only among the people at large but in both Houses of Parliament. In every other Country in Europe all the people are our friends. We found in the Course of the Revolution, that many strangers served us faithfully — and that many natives took part agst. their Country. When foreigners after looking about for some other Country in which they can obtain more happiness, give a preference to ours, it is a proof of attachment which ought to excite our confidence affection.
Mr. Randolph did not know but it might be problematical whether emigrations to this Country were on the whole useful or not: but he could never agree to the motion for disabling them for 14 years to participate in the public honours. He reminded the Convention of the language held by our patriots during the Revolution, and the principles laid down in all our American Constitutions. Many foreigners may have fixed their fortunes among us under the faith of these invitations. All persons under this description with all others who would be affected by such a regulation, would enlist themselves under the banners of hostility to the proposed System. He would go as far as seven years, but no further.
Mr. Wilson said he rose with feelings which were perhaps peculiar; mentioning the circumstance of his not being a native, and the possibility, if the ideas of some gentlemen should be pursued, of his being incapacitated from holding a place under the very Constitution which he had shared in the trust of making. He remarked the illiberal complexion which the motion would give to the System, the effect which a good system would have in inviting meritorious foreigners among us, and the discouragement mortification they must feel from the degrading discrimination, now proposed. He had himself experienced this mortification. On his removal into Maryland, he found himself, from defect of residence, under certain legal incapacities, which never ceased to produce chagrin, though he assuredly did not desire would not have accepted the offices to which they related. To be appointed to a place may be matter of indifference. To be incapable of being appointed, is a circumstance grating, and mortifying.
Mr. Govr. Morris. The lesson we are taught is that we should be governed as much by our reason, and as little by our feelings as possible. What is the language of Reason on this subject? That we should not be polite at the expense of prudence. There was a moderation in all things. It is said that some tribes of Indians, carried their hospitality so far as to offer to strangers their wives and daughters. Was this a proper model for us? He would admit them to his house, he would invite them to his table, would provide for them comfortable lodgings; but would not carry the complaisance so far as, to bed them with his wife. He would let them worship at the same altar, but did not choose to make Priests of them. He ran over the privileges which emigrants would enjoy among us, though they should be deprived of that of being eligible to the great offices of Government; observing that they exceeded the privileges allowed to foreigners in any part of the world; and that as every Society from a great nation down to a club had the right of declaring the conditions on which new members should be admitted, there could be no room for complaint. As to those philosophical gentlemen, those Citizens of the World, as they called themselves, He owned he did not wish to see any of them in our public Councils. He would not trust them. The men who can shake off their attachments to their own Country can never love any other. These attachments are the wholesome prejudices which uphold all Governments, Admit a Frenchman into your Senate, and he will study to increase the commerce of France: An Englishman, he will feel an equal bias in favor of that of England. It has been said that The Legislatures will not chuse foreigners, at least improper ones. There was no knowing what Legislatures would do. Some appointments made by them, proved that every thing ought to be apprehended from the cabals practised on such occasions. He mentioned the case of a foreigner who left this State in disgrace, and worked himself into an appointment from 〈another〉 13 to Congress.
Question on the motion of Mr. Govr. Morris to insert 14 in place of 4 years
N. H. ay. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]
On 13 years, moved Mr. Govr. Morris
N. H. ay. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]
On 10 years moved by Genl Pinkney
N. H. ay. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]
Dr. Franklin reminded the Convention that it did not follow from an omission to insert the restriction in the Constitution that the persons in question wd. be actually chosen into the Legislature.
Mr. Rutlidge. 7 years of Citizenship have been required for the House of Representatives. Surely a longer time is requisite for the Senate, which will have more power.
Mr. Williamson. It is more necessary to guard the Senate in this case than the other House. Bribery Cabal can be more easily practised in the choice of the Senate which is to be made by the Legislatures composed of a few men, than of the House of Represents. who will be chosen by the people.
Mr. Randolph will agree to 9 years with the expectation that it will be reduced to seven if Mr. Wilson’s motion to reconsider the vote fixing 7 years for the House of Representatives should produce a reduction of that period.
On a question for 9 years
N. H. ay. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. divd. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 6; noes — 4; divided — 1.]
The term “Resident” was struck out, “inhabitant” inserted nem. con.
Art. V Sect. 3. as amended agreed to nem. con.
Sect. 4. agreed to nem. con. 14
Art. VI. sect. 1. taken up. 15
Mr. 〈Madison〉 — Mr. Govr. Morris moved to strike out “each House” 〈to insert “the House of Representatives”;〉 16 the right of the Legislatures to regulate the times places c. in 〈the election of Senators〉 being involved in the right of appointing 〈them〉, which was 〈disagreed to.〉 17
Division of the question being called, it was taken on the first part down to “but their provisions concerning c”
The first part was agreed to nem. con.
Mr. Pinkney Mr. Rutlidge moved to strike out the remaining part viz but their provisions concerning them may at any time be altered by the Legislature of the United States.” 18 The States they contended could must be relied on in such cases.
Mr Ghorum. It would be as improper take this power from the Natl. Legislature, as to Restrain the British Parliament from regulating the circumstances of elections, leaving this business to the Counties themselves —
Mr 〈Madison〉. The necessity of a Genl. Govt. supposes that the State Legislatures will sometimes fail or refuse to consult the common interest at the expense of their local conveniency or prejudices. The policy of referring the appointment of the House of Representatives to the people and not to the Legislatures of the States, supposes that the result will be somewhat influenced by the mode, This view of the question seems to decide that the Legislatures of the States ought not to have the uncontrouled right of regulating the times places manner of holding elections. These were words of great latitude. It was impossible to foresee all the abuses that might be made of the discretionary power. Whether the electors should vote by ballot or vivâ voce, should assemble at this place or that place; should be divided into districts or all meet at one place, shd all vote for all the representatives; or all in a district vote for a number allotted to the district; these many other points would depend on the Legislatures. and might materially affect the appointments. Whenever the State Legislatures had a favorite measure to carry, they would take care so to mould their regulations as to favor the candidates they wished to succeed. Besides, the inequality of the Representation in the Legislatures of particular States, would produce a like inequality in their representation in the Natl. Legislature, as it was presumable that the Counties having the power in the former case would secure it to themselves in the latter. What danger could there be in giving a controuling power to the Natl. Legislature? Of whom was it to consist? 1. of a Senate to be chosen by the State Legislatures. If the latter therefore could be trusted, their representatives could not be dangerous. 2. of Representatives elected by the same people who elect the State Legislatures; surely then if confidence is due to the latter, it must be due to the former. It seemed as improper in principle — though it might be less inconvenient in practice, to give to the State Legislatures this great authority over the election of the Representatives of the people in the Genl. Legislature, as it would be to give to the latter a like power over the election of their Representatives in the State Legislatures.
Mr. King. If this power be not given to the Natl. Legislature, their right of judging of the returns of their members may be frustrated. No probability has been suggested of its being abused by them. Altho this scheme of erecting the Genl. Govt. on the authority of the State Legislatures has been fatal to the federal establishment, it would seem as if many gentlemen, still foster the dangerous idea.
Mr. Govr. Morris — observed that the States might make false returns and then make no provisions for new elections
Mr. Sherman did not know but it might be best to retain the clause, though he had himself sufficient confidence in the State Legislatures. 〈The motion of Mr. P. Mr. R. did not prevail〉
〈The word “respectively” was inserted after the word “State”〉 19
On the motion of Mr Read the word “their” was struck out, “regulations in such cases” inserted in place of “provisions concerning them”. 〈the clause then reading — “but regulations, in each of the foregoing cases may at any time, be made or altered by the Legislature of the U. S.〉 20 This was meant to give the Natl. Legislature a power not only to alter the provisions of the States, but to make regulations in case the States should fail or refuse altogether.
Art. VI. Sect. 1 — as thus amended was agreed to nem. con.
Adjourned.
5. Art. S. 1 — Wilson moves to strike out the clause authorising the State Executives to supply Vacancies in the Senate observing that the case may be safely lodged with the Senate — Randolph agt. the motion — because the Senate is the Br. where the Interest of the States will be deposited — They ought then to be constantly represented — in case of Treaty, or the election of Ambassadors, each state ought to be present — the State Legislatures may be in recess at the Time of a vacancy in the senate — If the place is not supplied the state may suffer a very great Inconvenience — Wilson — I think Legislators are improper Electors of the Executive — and so the Executive is an unqualified Elector of the Legislators —
G Morris
Liberal illiberal — The terms are indefinite — The Indians are the most liberal, because when a Stranger comes among them they offer him yr. wife Daughters for his carnal amusement —
It is said yt. we threw open our Doors — invited the oppressed of all Countries to come find an Asylum in America — This is true we invited them to come and worship in our Temple but we never invited them to become Priests at our Altar — We shd. cherish the love of our country — This is a wholesome prejudice and is in favor of our Country — Foreigners will not learn our laws Constitution under 14 yrs. — 7 yrs must be applied to learn to be a Shoe Maker — 14 at least are necessary to learn to be an Amer. Legislator —
Again — that period will be requisite to eradicate the Affections of Education and native Attachments —
Franklin — I am agt. the Term of 14 yrs — it looks illiberal — we have many good Friends in Engld. other parts of Europe — they ought not to be excluded —
Wilson — agt. the motion for 14 yrs — 21
6 and 7 sects. agreed to without amendment.
The 1 section of the V article underwent an emendatory alteration. The last clause — “each member shall have one vote” — opposed by Mr. Mason, Randolph and a few others on account of the Senate by the loss of the 5 sect of the IV article having the same powers over money bills as the house of representatives. — The whole however was agreed to.
Sect. 2. agreed to after an emendatory addition.
Sect. 3 agreed to after inserting inhabitant for resident, as being less equivocal, and 9 years for 4 years.
Governeur Morris proposed insted of 4 years 14. He would have confined the members he said to natives — but for its appearance and the effects it might have against the system.
Mr. Mason had the same wishes, but he could not think of excluding those foreigners who had taken a part and borne with the country the dangers and burdenths of the war.
Mr. Maddison was against such an invidious distinction. The matter might be safely intrusted to the respective legislatures. Doctor Franklin was of the same opinion. Mr. Willson expressed himself feelingly on the same side. It might happen, he said, that he who had been thought worthy of being trusted with the framing of the Constitution, might be excluded from it. He had not been born in this country. He considered such exclusing as one of the most galling chains which the human mind could experience, It was wrong to deprive the government of the talents virtue and abilities of such foreigners as might chuse to remove to this country. The corrup of other countries would not come here. Those who were tired in opposing such corruptions would be drawn hither, etc. etc.
Sect. 4 agreed to.
Sect. 1. Agreed to with this amendment insted of “ but their provisions concerning them. ”
adjourned
It was moved and seconded to strike out 2nd sect. of the 6. article in order to introduce the following namely
“That the qualifications of the members of the Legislature be as follows.
“The members of the House of representatives shall possess a clear and unincumbered property of
“The Members of the Senate”
which passed in the negative
It was moved and seconded to strike the following words out of the 2nd sect. of the 6. article, namely
“with regard to property”
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 4; noes — 6.]
On the question to agree to the 2nd sect. of the 6. article as reported.
it passed in the negative. [Ayes — 3; noes — 7.]
It was moved and seconded to reconsider the 2nd sect. of the 4th article
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 6; noes — 5.]
and monday next was assigned for the reconsideration [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.]
It was moved and seconded to amend the 3rd sect. of the 6. article to read as follows, namely.
“not less than 33 members of the House of representatives, nor less that 14 members of the Senate, shall constitute a quorum to do business; a smaller number in either House may adjourn from day to day, but the number necessary to form such quorum may be encreased by an act of the Legislature on the addition of members in either branch”
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 2; noes — 9.] 1
It was moved and seconded to add the following amendment to the 3rd sect. of the 6. article
“and may be authorised to compel the attendance of absent members in such manner and under such penalties as each House may provide”
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 10; noes — 0; divided — 1.] 2
On the question to agree to the 3rd sect. of the 6. article as amended
it passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the 4 sect of the 6 article as reported
it passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the 5. sect. of the 6 article as reported
it passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to amend the last clause in the 6 sect. of the 6. article by adding the following words
“with the concurrence of two thirds”
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 10; noes — 0; divided — 1.]
On the question to agree to the 6 sect. of the 6 article as amended
it passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to strike out the words
“one fifth part” and to insert the words “of every one Member present” in the latter clause of the 7. sect. of the 6 article
which passed in the negative. 3
It was moved and seconded to strike out the words “each House” and to insert the words “the House of representatives” in the second clause of the 7 sect of the 6 article — and to add the following words to the section, namely
“and any member of the Senate shall be at liberty to enter his dissent”
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.] 4
It was moved and seconded to strike the following words out of the 7 sect of the 6 article, namely
“when it shall be acting in a legislative capacity”
and to add the following words to the section
“except such parts thereof as in their judgment require secrecy”
which passed in the affirmative. [Ayes — 7; noes — 3; divided — 1.] 5
And then the House adjourned till to-morrow at 11 o’clock A. M.
New Hampshire | Massachusetts | Rhode Island | Connecticut | New York | New Jersey | Pennsylvania | Delaware | Maryland | Virginia | North Carolina | South Carolina | Georgia | Questions | Ayes | Noes | Divided | |
[264] | no | no | aye | aye | aye | no | no | no | no | aye | To strike out the words “with regard to property” | 4 | 6 | ||||
[265] | aye | aye | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | aye | To agree to the 2 sect. of ye 6. article as reported | 3 | 7 | ||||
[266] | no | no | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | no | To reconsider the 2 sect of 4 art. | 6 | 5 | |||
[267] | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | Monday assigned | 9 | 2 | |||
[268] | no | aye | no | no | no | aye | no | no | no | no | no | To agree to the amendmt of ye 3 sect. 6 art. offd by Mr King | 2 | 9 | |||
[269] | aye | aye | aye | aye | dd | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | To agree to Mr Randolphs amendmt to ye 3 sect 6 art. | 10 | 1 | |||
[270] | aye | aye | aye | aye | dd | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | Two-thirds required to expel a member | 10 | 1 | |||
[Beginning of ninth loose sheet] | |||||||||||||||||
[271] | no | no | no | no | no | no | aye | aye | no | aye | no | To agree to the amendmt proposed to the 7 Sect of the 6 article by Mr Carrol | 3 | 8 | |||
[272] | dd | aye | no | no | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | To agree to Mr Gerry’s amendment to the 7 section of the 6 article | 7 | 3 | 1 |
Art. VI. sect. 2. taken up. 6
Mr. Pinkney — The Committee as he had conceived were instructed to report the proper qualifications of property for the members of the Natl. Legislature; instead of which they have referred the task to the Natl. Legislature itself. Should it be left on this footing, the first Legislature will meet without any particular qualifications of property; and if it should happen to consist of rich men they might fix such such qualifications as may be too favorable to the rich; if of poor men, an opposite extreme might be run into. He was opposed to the establishment of an undue aristocratic influence in the Constitution but he thought it essential that the members of the Legislature, the Executive, and the Judges — should be possessed of competent property to make them independent respectable. It was prudent when such great powers were to be trusted to connect the tie of property with that of reputation in securing a faithful administration. The Legislature would have the fate of the Nation put into their hands. The President would also have a very great influence on it. The Judges would have not only important causes between Citizen Citizen but also where foreigners are concerned. They will even be the Umpires between the U. States and individual States as well as between one State another. Were he to fix the quantum of property which should be required, he should not think of less than one hundred thousand dollars for the President, half of that sum for each of the Judges, and in like proportion for the members of the Natl. Legislature. He would however leave the sums blank. His motion was that the President of the U. S. the Judges, and members of the Legislature should be required to swear that they were respectively possessed of a clear unincumbered Estate to the amount of ——— in the case of the President, c c —
Mr. Rutlidge seconded the motion; observing, that the Committee had reported no qualifications because they could not agree on any among themselves, being embarrassed by the danger on 〈one〉 side of displeasing the people by making them 〈high〉, and on the other of rendering them nugatory by making them low.
Mr. Elseworth. The different circumstances of different parts of the U. S. and the probable difference between the present and future circumstances of the whole, render it improper to have either uniform or fixed qualifications. Make them so high as to be useful in the S. States, and they will be inapplicable to the E. States. Suit them to the latter, and they will serve no purpose in the former. In like manner what may be accommodated to the existing State of things among us, may be very inconvenient in some future state of them. He thought for these reasons that it was better to leave this matter to the Legislative discretion than to attempt a provision for it in the Constitution.
Doctr Franklin expressed his dislike of every thing that tended to debase the spirit of the common people. If honesty was often the companion of wealth, and if poverty was exposed to peculiar temptation, it was not less true that the possession of property increased the desire of more property- Some of the greatest rogues he was ever acquainted with, were the richest rogues. We should remember the character which the Scripture requires in Rulers, that they should be men hating covetousness- This Constitution will be much read and attended to in Europe, and if it should betray a great partiality to the rich- will not only hurt us in the esteem of the most liberal and enlightened men there, but discourage the common people from removing to this Country.
The Motion of Mr. Pinkney was rejected by so general a no, that the States were not called.
Mr 〈Madison〉 was opposed to the Section as vesting an improper dangerous power in the Legislature. The qualifications of electors and elected were fundamental articles in a Republican Govt. and ought to be fixed by the Constitution. If the Legislature could regulate those of either, it can by degrees subvert the Constitution. A Republic may be converted into an aristocracy or oligarchy as well by limiting the number capable of being elected, as the number authorised to elect. In all cases where the representatives of the people will have a personal interest distinct from that of their Constituents, there was the same reason for being jealous of them, as there was for relying on them with full confidence, when they had a common interest. This was one of the former cases. It was as improper as to allow them to fix their own wages, or their own privileges. It was a power also, which might be made subservient to the views of one faction agst. another. Qualifications founded on artificial distinctions may be devised, 7 by the stronger in order to keep out partizans of 〈a weaker〉 8 faction.
Mr. Elseworth, admitted that the power was not unexceptionable; but he could not view it as dangerous. Such a power with regard to the electors would be dangerous because it would be much more liable to abuse.
Mr. Govr. Morris moved to strike out “with regard to property” in order to leave the Legislature entirely at large.
Mr. Williamson. This could surely never be admitted. Should a majority of the Legislature be composed of any particular description of men, of lawyers for example, which is no improbable supposition, the future elections might be secured to their own body.
Mr. 〈Madison〉 observed that the British Parliamt. possessed the power of regulating the qualifications both of the electors, and the elected; and the abuse they had made of it was a lesson worthy of our attention. They had made the changes in both cases subservient to their own views, or to the views of political or Religious parties.
Question on the motion to strike out with regard to property
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. no. * Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo- ay. [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]
Mr Rutlidge was opposed to leaving the power to the Legislature- He proposed that the qualifications should be the same as for members of the State Legislatures.
Mr. Wilson thought it would be best on the whole to let the Section go out. A uniform rule would probably be never fixed by the Legislature. and this particular power would constructively exclude every other power of regulating qualifications-
On the question for agreeing to Art- VI- sect- 2d
N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no. Md. no. Va. no. 〈N. C. no〉 S. C. no. Geo. ay- [Ayes — 3; noes — 7.]
On Motion of Mr Wilson to reconsider Art: IV. sect. 2. so as to restore 3 in place of seven years of citizenship as a qualification for being elected into the House of Represents.
N. H- no. Mas- no. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 6; noes — 5.]
〈Monday next was then assigned for the reconsideration: all the States being ay- except Massts. Georgia〉 9
Art: VI. sect. 3. taken up. 10
Mr. Ghorum contended that less than a Majority 〈in each House〉 should be made of Quorum, otherwise great delay might happen in business, and great inconvenience from the future increase of numbers.
Mr. Mercer was also for less than a majority. So great a number will put it in the power of a few by seceding at a critical moment to introduce convulsions, and endanger the Governmt. Examples of secession have already happened in some of the States. He was for leaving it to the Legislature to fix the Quorum, as in Great Britain, where the requisite number is small no inconveniency has been experienced.
Col. Mason. This is a valuable necessary part of the plan. In this extended Country, embracing so great a diversity of interests, it would be dangerous to the distant parts to allow a small number of members of the two Houses to make laws. The Central States could always take care to be on the Spot and by meeting earlier than the distant ones, or wearying their patience, and outstaying them, could carry such measures as they pleased. He admitted that inconveniences might spring from the secession of a small number: But he had also known good produced by an apprehension of it. He had known a paper emission prevented by that cause in Virginia. He thought the Constitution as now moulded was founded on sound principles, and was disposed to put into it extensive powers. At the same time he wished to guard agst abuses as much as possible. If the Legislature should be able to reduce the number at all, it might reduce it as low as it pleased the U. States might be governed by a Juncto- A majority of the number which had been agreed on, was so few that he feared it would be made an objection agst. the plan.
Mr. King admitted there might be some danger of giving an advantage to the Central States; but was of opinion that the public inconveniency on the other side was more to be dreaded.
Mr. Govr. Morris moved to fix the quorum at 33 members in the H. of Reps. 14 in the Senate. This is a majority of the present number, and will be a bar to the Legislature: fix the number low and they will generally attend knowing that advantage may be taken of their absence. the Secession of a small number ought not to be suffered to break a quorum. Such events in the States may have been of little consequence. In the national Councils, they may be fatal. Besides other mischiefs, if a few can break up a quorum, they may sieze a moment when a particular 〈part〉 of the Continent may be in need of immediate aid, to extort, by threatening a secession, some unjust selfish measure.
Mr. Mercer 2ded. the motion
Mr. King said he had just prepared a motion 11 which instead of fixing the numbers proposed by Mr. Govr Morris as Quorums, made those the lowest numbers, leaving the Legislature at liberty to increase them or not. He thought the future increase of members would render a majority of the whole extremely cumbersome.
Mr. Mercer agreed to substitute Mr. Kings motion in place of Mr. Morris’s.
Mr. Elseworth was opposed to it. It would be a pleasing ground of confidence to the people that no law or burden could be imposed on them, by a few men. He reminded the movers that the Constitution proposed to give such a discretion with regard to the number of Representatives that a very inconvenient number was not to be apprehended. The inconveniency of secessions may be guarded agst by giving to each House an authority to require the attendance of absent members.
Mr. Wilson concurred in the sentiments of Mr. Elseworth.
Mr. Gerry seemed to think that some further precautions than merely fixing the quorum might be necessary. He observed that as 17 wd. be a majority of a quorum of 33, and 8 of 14, questions might by possibility be carried in the H. of Reps. by 2 large States, and in the Senate by the same States with the aid of two small ones. — He proposed that the number for a quorum in the H. of Reps. should not exceed 50 〈nor be less than 33〉. leaving the intermediate discretion to the Legislature.
Mr. King. as the quorum could not be altered witht. the concurrence of the President by less than ⅔ of each House, he thought there could be no danger in trusting the Legislature.
Mr Carrol this will be no security agst. a continuance of the quorums at 33 14. when they ought to be increased.
On question on Mr. Kings motion 〈“that not less than 33 in the H. of Reps. nor less than 14 in the Senate shd. constitute a Quorum, which may be increased by a law, on additions of members in either House.〉 12
N. H. no. Mas. ay. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 2; noes — 9.]
Mr. Randolph Mr. — 〈Madison〉 moved to add to the end of Art. VI Sect 3, “and 〈may〉 be authorized to compel the attendance of absent members in such manner under such penalties as each House may provide.” Agreed to 〈by all except Pena — which was divided〉 13
14
Article VI, Sect. 4. “Each House shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members.” Sect. 5. “Freedom of speech and debate in the Legislature shall not be impeached or questioned in any Court or place out of the Legislature; and the members of each House shall, in all cases, except treason felony and breach of the peace, be privileged from arrest during their attendance at Congress, and in going to and returning from it.” |
|
Art: VI. Sect. 3. | Agreed to as amended Nem. con. |
Sect. 4. } | Agreed to nem. con. 14 |
Sect. 5. } |
Mr. 〈Madison〉 observed that the right of expulsion (Art. VI. Sect. 6.) 15 was too important to be exercised by a bare majority of a quorum: and in emergencies of faction might be dangerously abused. He moved that “with the concurrence of ⅔” might be inserted between may expel.
Mr. Randolph Mr. Mason approved the idea.
Mr Govr Morris. This power may be safely trusted to a majority. To require more may produce abuses on the side of the minority. A few men from factious motives may keep in a member who ought to be expelled.
Mr. Carrol thought that the concurrence of ⅔ at least ought to be required.
On the question for requiring ⅔ in cases of expelling a member.
N. H. ay- Mas. ay. Ct. ay- N. J- ay. Pa. divd. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N- C. ay- S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes— 10; noes — 0; divided — 1.]
Art. VI- Sect- 6- as thus amended agreed to nem. con.
Art: VI. Sect. 7. taken up. 16
Mr. Govr Morris urged that if the yeas nays were proper at all any individual ought to be authorized to call for them: and moved an amendment to that effect. — The small States may otherwise be under a disadvantage, and find it difficult. to get a concurrence of ⅙
Mr. Randolph 2ded. ye motion.
Mr. Sherman had rather strike out the yeas nays altogether. they never have done any good, and have done much mischief. They are not proper as the reasons governing the voter never appear along with them.
Mr Elseworth was of the same opinion
Col. Mason liked the Section as it stood. it was a middle way between two extremes.
Mr Ghorum was opposed to the motion for allowing a single member to call the yeas nays, and recited the abuses of it, in Massts. 1 in stuffing the journals with them on frivolous occasions. 2 in misleading the people who never know the reasons determining the votes.
The motion for allowing a single member to call the yeas nays was disagd. to nem- con-
Mr. Carrol Mr. Randolph moved 〈to strike out the words “each House” and to insert the words “the House of Representatives” in sect- 7. art- 6. and to add to the Section the words “and any member of the Senate shall be at liberty to enter his dissent”〉 17
Mr. Govr Morris Mr Wilson observed that if the minority were to have a right to enter their votes reasons, the other side would have a right to complain, if it were not extended to them: to allow it to both, would fill the Journals, like the records of a Court, with replications, rejoinders c-
Question on Mr Carrols motion to allow a member to 〈enter his〉 dissent
N. H- no. Mas. no. Cont. no. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. no. [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]
Mr Gerry moved to strike out the words “when it shall be acting in its legislative capacity” in order to extend the provision to the Senate when exercising its peculiar authorities 〈and to insert “except such parts thereof as in their judgment require secrecy” after the words “publish them”〉. — (It was thought by others that provision should be made with respect to these when that part came under consideration which proposed to vest those 〈additional〉 authorities in the Senate.)
On this question for striking out the words “when acting in its Legislative capacity”
N. H. divd. Mas ay. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay- N. C. ay. S. C- ay. Geo. ay- [Ayes—7; noes—3; divided — 1.]
Adjourned
Sect. 2. dissented to. Sects. 3. 4 5 and 6 agreed to. 18
It was moved and seconded to amend the first clause of the 7 sect. of the 6 article to read as follows namely
“Each House shall keep a Journal of it’s proceedings, and shall from time to time publish the same; except such part of the proceedings of the Senate when acting not in it’s Legislative capacity as may be judged by that House to require secrecy”
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 1; noes — 10.] 1
It was moved and seconded to insert in the first clause of the 7 sect of the 6 article after the word “thereof” the following words
“relative to Treaties and military operations”
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 2; noes — 9.] 2
[On the 1st clause of the 7 sect. of the 6 article as reported
Ayes — 11; noes 0.
except such parts thereof as in their judgment require secrecy.
Ayes — 6; noes — 4; divided — 1.
To agree to the last clause of the 7 sect of the 6 art.
Ayes — 11; noes — 0.] 3
On the question to agree to the 7. sect. of the 6 article as amended
it passed in the affirmative
[To commit the 2nd clause of the 7 sect. 6 art.
Ayes —4; noes — 7.
“nor to any other place than that at which the two Houses are sitting” 8 sect. 6 article Ayes — 10; noes — 1.] 4 It was moved and seconded to alter the 8th sect. of the 6. article to read as follows, namely,
“The Legislature shall at their first assembling determine on a place at which their future Sessions shall be held: neither House shall afterwards, during the Session of the House of Representatives, without the consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor shall they adjourn to any other place than such as shall have been fixed by law”
which passed in the negative
It was moved and seconded to prefix the following words to the 8 sect. of the 6 article, namely
“During the session of the Legislature” 5
and to strike out the last clause of the section
which passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the 8 sect. of the 6 article as amended.
it passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to reconsider the 5. sect. of the 4. article
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 8; noes — 2;
divided — 1.]
and monday next was assigned for the reconsideration And then the House adjourned till Monday next at 11 o’Clock A. M.
New Hampshire | Massachusetts | Rhode Island | Connecticut | New York | New Jersey | Pennsylvania | Delaware | Maryland | Virginia | North Carolina | South Carolina | Georgia | Questions | Ayes | Noes | Divided | |
[273] | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | aye | no | no | no | To agree to Mr Madison’s amendmt | 1 | 10 | |||
[274] | no | aye | aye | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | except such parts thereof relative to Treaties military operations. | 2 | 9 | |||
[275] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | On the 1st clause of the 7 sect. of the 6 article as reported | 11 | ||||
[276] | dd | aye | aye | aye | no | no | no | aye | aye | no | aye | except such parts thereof as in their judgment require secrecy. | 6 | 4 | 1 | ||
[277] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | To agree to the last clause of the 7 sect of the 6 art. | |||||
[278] | no | aye | no | aye | aye | no | no | aye | no | no | no | To commit the 2nd clause of the 7 sect. 6 art. | 4 | 7 | |||
[279] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | “nor to any other place than that at which the two Houses are sitting” 8 sect. 6 article | 10 | 1 | |||
[280] | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | dd | aye | To reconsider 5 sect 4 article Monday assigned | 8 | 2 | 1 |
Mr 〈Madison〉 Mr. Rutlidge moved “that each House shall keep a journal of its proceeding, 〈shall〉 publish the same from time to time; except such 〈part〉 of the proceedings of the Senate, when acting not in its Legislative capacity as may 〈be judged by〉 that House 〈to〉 require secrecy.”
Mr. Mercer. This implies that other powers than legislative will be given to the Senate which he hoped would not be given.
Mr. M〈adison〉 Mr. R’s motion. was disagd. to by all the States except Virga.
Mr. Gerry Mr. Sharman moved to insert after the words “publish them” the following “except such as relate to treaties military operations.” Their object was to give each House a discretion in such cases. — On this question
N. H- no. Mas- ay. Ct. ay. N- J. no. Pa. no. Del- no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 2; noes — 8.] 6
Mr. Elseworth. As the clause is objectionable in so many shapes, it may as well be struck out altogether. 7 The Legislature will not fail to publish their proceedings from time to time — The 〈people〉 will call for it if it should be improperly omitted.
Mr. Wilson thought the expunging of the clause would be very improper. The people have a right to know what their Agents are doing or have done, and it should not be in the option of the Legislature to conceal their proceedings. Besides as this is a clause in the existing confederation, the not retaining it would furnish the adversaries of the reform with a pretext by which weak suspicious minds may be easily misled.
Mr. Mason thought it would give a just alarm to the people, to make a conclave of their Legislature.
Mr. Sherman thought the Legislature might be trusted in this case if in any.
Question on 1st. part of the Section, down to “ publish them ” inclusive: Agreed to nem. con.
Question on the words to follow, to wit except such parts thereof as may in their Judgment require secrecy.” 8 N. H. divd. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J- ay. Pa. no. Del- no. Md. no. Va. ay- N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay — [Ayes — 6; noes — 4; divided — 1.]
The remaining part as to yeas and nays. — agreed to nem. con.
Art VI. sect. 8. taken up. 9
Mr. King remarked 10 that the section authorized the 2 Houses to adjourn to a new place. He thought this inconvenient. The mutability of place had dishonored the federal Govt. and would require as strong a cure as we could devise. He thought a law at least should be 〈made〉 necessary to a removal of the Seat of Govt.
Mr 〈Madison〉 viewed the subject in the same light, and joined with Mr. King in a motion requiring a law.
Mr. Governr. Morris proposed the additional alteration by inserting the words “during the Session” c”.
Mr. Spaight. this will fix the seat of Govt at N. Y. 〈The present〉 Congress will convene them there in the first instance, and they will never be able to remove; especially if the Presidt. should be Northern Man.