It was moved and seconded to add the following amendment to the 4 sect. 11 article
“The privilege of the writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended; unless where in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.”
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 7; noes — 3.] 2
On the question to agree to the 5. section 11 article as reported
it passed in the affirmative.
It was moved and seconded to insert the words “nor emit bills of credit” after the word “money” in the 12 article
which passed in the affirmative. [Ayes — 8; noes — 1; divided — 1.] 3
It was moved and seconded to insert the following clause after the last amendment.
“nor make any thing but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts”
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 11; noes — 0.] 4
It was moved and seconded to add the following clause to the last amendment.
“nor pass any bill of attainder or ex post facto laws”
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 7; noes — 3.] 5
It was moved and seconded to insert after the word “reprisal” the words “nor lay embargoes”
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]
It was moved and seconded to transfer the following words from the 13 to the 12 article
“nor lay imposts or duties on imports”
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]
Separate questions being taken on the several clauses of the 12 article, as amended,
they passed in the affirmative.
It was moved and seconded to insert after the word “imports” in the 13th article the words “or exports”
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 6; noes — 5.]
6 This vote is not accounted for. | |||||||||||||||||
7 This vote probably belongs to the Records of September 5 (see note 1 a of that date). | |||||||||||||||||
New Hampshire | Massachusetts | Rhode Island | Connecticut | New York | New Jersey | Pennsylvania | Delaware | Maryland | Virginia | No Carolina | So Carolina | Georgia | Questions | ayes | noes | divided | |
[385] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | The supreme Court shall have appellate jurisd | 9 | 1 | ||||
[386] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | no | no | unless where in cases of rebellion ca Ha Cor: | 7 | 3 | ||||
[387] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | dd | no | aye | aye | aye | nor emit bills of credit | 8 | 1 | 1 | |||
[388] 6 | aye | aye | no | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | 9 | 2 | ||||
[389] 7 | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | ||||||
[page 14] | |||||||||||||||||
[390] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | nor make any thing but gold or silver coin a tender in payment of debts | 11 | ||||
[391] | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | no | no | aye | aye | aye | nor pass any bill of attainder or ex post facto laws. | ||||||
[392] | no | aye | no | no | no | aye | no | no | no | aye | no | “nor lay embargoes.” | 3 | 8 | |||
[393] | aye | no | no | aye | no | aye | no | no | aye | no | no | lay imposts or dues on imports | 4 | 7 | |||
[394] | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | no | no | aye | no | no | “or exports” 13 article. | 6 | 5 | |||
[395] | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | “nor wh such consent but for the use of the Treasy of the U S. | |||||
[396] | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | on the first clause 13 article | 9 | 2 | |||
[397] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | dd | To agree to ye 14 article | 9 | 1 | 1 |
It was moved and seconded to add after the word “exports” in the 13th article the words “nor with such consent but for the use of the treasury of the United States”
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.] [on the first clause 13 article Ayes — 9; noes — 2.] 8 Separate questions being taken on the several clauses of the 13th article, as amended,
they passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the 14 article as reported it passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 9; noes — 1; divided — 1.] It was moved and seconded to strike out the words “high misdemeanor,” and to insert the words “other crime”
which passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the 15th article as amended
it passed in the affirmative
The House adjourned.
Mr. Sherman from the Committee to whom were referred several propositions on the 25th. instant, made the following report —
That there be inserted after the 4 clause of 7th. section
“Nor shall any regulation of commerce or revenue give preference to the ports of one State 〈over〉 9 those of another, or oblige vessels bound to or from any State to enter clear or pay duties in another and all tonnage, duties, imposts excises laid by the Legislature shall be uniform throughout the U. S-” Ordered to lie on the table.
Art XI sect. 3. “It was moved to strike out the words “it shall be appellate” to insert the words “the supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction”, — in order to prevent uncertainty whether “it” referred to the supreme Court, or to the Judicial power.
On the question
N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. abst. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay. N C ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 9; noes — 1; absent — 1.] 10
Sect. 4— was so amended nem: con: as to read “The trial of all crimes (except in cases of impeachment) shall be by jury, and such trial shall be held in the State where the said crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, then the trial shall be at such place or places as the Legislature may direct”. The object of this amendment was to provide for trial by jury of offences committed out of any State.
Mr. Pinkney, urging the propriety of securing the benefit of the Habeas corpus in the most ample manner, moved “that it should not be suspended but on the most urgent occasions, then only for a limited time not exceeding twelve months” 11
Mr. Rutlidge was for declaring the Habeas Corpus inviolable— He did 〈not〉 conceive that a suspension could ever be necessary at the same time through all the States—
Mr. Govr Morris moved that “The privilege of the writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless where in cases of Rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it”.
Mr. Wilson doubted whether in any case 〈a suspension〉 could be necessary, as the discretion now exists with Judges, in most important cases to keep in Gaol or admit to Bail.
The first part of Mr. Govr. Morris’ 〈motion,〉 to the word “unless” was agreed to nem: con: — on the remaining part;
N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 7; noes — 3.]
Sect. 5. of art: XI. 12 was agreed to nem: con: *
Art: XII being taken up. 14
Mr. Wilson Mr. Sherman moved to insert after the words “coin money” the words “nor emit bills of credit, nor make any thing but gold silver coin a tender in payment of debts” making these prohibitions absolute, instead of 〈making the measures allowable〉 (as in the XIII art:) with the consent of the Legislature of the U. S. 15
Mr. Ghorum thought the purpose would be as well secured by the provision of art: XIII which makes the consent of the Genl. Legislature necessary, and that in that mode, no opposition would be excited; whereas an absolute prohibition of paper money would rouse the most desperate opposition from its partizans— 16
Mr. Sherman thought this a favorable crisis for crushing paper money. If the consent of the Legislature could authorize emissions of it, the friends of paper money would make every exertion to get into the Legislature in order to license it.
The question being divided: on the 1st. part — “nor emit bills of credit”
N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. Pa. ay— Del. ay. Md divd. 17 Va. no. N— C— ay— S— C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 8; noes — 1; divided — 1.]
The remaining part of Mr. Wilson’s Sherman’s motion, was agreed to nem: con:
Mr King moved to add, in the words used in the Ordinance of Congs establishing new States, a prohibition on the States to interfere in private contracts.
Mr. Govr. Morris. This would be going too far. There are a thousand laws relating to bringing actions — limitations of actions which affect contracts— The Judicial power of the U— S— will be a protection in cases within their jurisdiction; and within the State itself a majority must rule, whatever may be the mischief done among themselves.
Mr. Sherman. Why then prohibit bills of credit?
Mr. Wilson was in favor of Mr. King’s motion.
Mr. Madison admitted that inconveniences might arise from such a prohibition but thought on the whole it would be overbalanced by the utility of it. He conceived however that a negative on the State laws could alone secure the effect. Evasions might and would be devised by the ingenuity of the Legislatures—
Col: Mason. This is carrying the restraint too far. Cases will happen that can not be foreseen, where some kind of interference will be proper, essential— He mentioned the case of limiting the period for bringing actions on open account — that of bonds after a certain 〈lapse of time,〉 — asking whether it was proper to tie the hands of the States from making provision in such cases?
Mr. Wilson. The answer to these objections is that retrospective interferences only are to be prohibited.
Mr. Madison. Is not that already done by the prohibition of ex post facto laws, which will oblige the Judges to declare such interferences null void.
Mr. Rutlidge moved instead of Mr. King’s Motion to insert — “nor pass bills of attainder nor retrospective * laws” on which motion
N. H. ay— Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. no. Virga. no. N— C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 7; noes — 3.] 18
Mr. Madison moved to insert after the word “reprisal” (art. XII) the words “nor lay embargoes”. He urged that such acts 〈by the States〉 would be unnecessary — impolitic — unjust—
Mr. Sherman thought the States ought to retain this power in order to prevent suffering injury to their poor.
Col: Mason thought the amendment would be not only improper but dangerous, as the Genl. Legislature would not sit constantly and therefore could not interpose at the necessary moments— He enforced his objection by appealing to the necessity of sudden embargoes during the war, to prevent exports, particularly in the case of a blockade—
Mr Govr. Morris considered the provision as unnecessary; the power of regulating trade between State State, already vested in the Genl— Legislature, being sufficient.
On the question
N. H. no. Mas. ay. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. no. [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]
Mr Madison moved that the words “nor lay imposts or duties on imports” be transferred from art: XIII where the consent of 20 the Genl. Legislature may license the act — into art: XII which will make the prohibition on the States absolute. He observed that as the States interested in this power by which they could tax the imports of their neighbours passing thro’ their markets, were a majority, 21 they could give the consent of the Legislature, to the injury of N. Jersey, N. Carolina c — 22
Mr. Williamson 2ded. the motion
Mr. Sherman thought the power might safely be left to the Legislature 23 of the U. States.
Col: Mason, observed that particular States might wish to encourage by impost duties certain manufactures for which they enjoyed natural advantages, as Virginia, the manufacture 24 of Hemp c.
Mr. Madison— The encouragment of Manufacture in that mode requires duties not only on imports directly from foreign Countries, but from the other States in the Union, which would revive all the mischiefs experienced from the want of a Genl. Government over commerce.
On the question
N. H. ay. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J— ay. Pa. no. Del: ay. Md. no. Va. no N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]
Art: XII as amended agreed to nem: con: 25
Art: XIII being taken up. 26 Mr. King moved to insert after the word “imports” the words “or exports” so as to prohibit the States from taxing either. — on this question 〈it passed in the affirmative.〉
N. H— ay. Mas. ay. Ct no. N. J. ay. P. ay. Del. ay. Md no. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 6; noes noes — 5.]
Mr. Sherman moved to add, after the word “exports” — the words “nor with such consent but for the use of the U. S.” — so as to carry the proceeds of all State duties on imports exports, into the common Treasury. 27
Mr. Madison liked the motion as preventing all State imposts — but lamented the complexity we were giving to the commercial system.
Mr. Govr. Morris thought the regulation necessary to prevent the Atlantic States from endeavouring to tax the Western States — promote their interest by opposing the navigation of the Mississippi which would drive the Western people into the arms of G. Britain.
Mr. Clymer thought the encouragement of the Western Country was suicide on the old States— If the States have such different interests that they can not be left to regulate their own manufactures without encountering the interests of other States, it is a proof that they are not fit to compose one nation.
Mr. King was afraid that the regulation moved by Mr Sherman would too much interfere with a policy of States respecting their manufactures, which may be necessary. Revenue he reminded the House was the object of the general Legislature.
On Mr. Sherman’s motion
N. H. ay. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.]
Art XIII was then agreed to as amended.
Art. XIV was taken up. 28
Genl. Pinkney was not satisfied with it. He seemed to wish some provision should be included in favor of property in slaves.
On the question 〈on art: XIV.〉
N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. ay— Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. ay— Va. ay. N— C— ay. S— C. no. Geo. divided [Ayes — 9; noes — 1; divided — 1.]
Art: XV. being taken up. 29 the words “high misdemesnor,” were struck out, and “other crime” inserted, in order to comprehend all proper cases: it being doubtful whether “high misdemeanor” had not a technical meaning too limited.
Mr. Butler and Mr Pinkney moved “to require fugitive slaves and servants to be delivered up like criminals.”
Mr. Wilson. This would oblige the Executive of the State to do it, at the public expence.
Mr Sherman saw no more propriety in the public seizing and surrendering a slave or servant, than a horse.
Mr. Butler withdrew his proposition in order that some particular provision might be made apart from this article.
Art XV as amended was then agreed to nem: con:
Adjourned 30
4 Sect. Amended. 5 sect. agreed to.
XII article amended by adding that no State shall emit bills of credit, nor make any thing but specie a tender in debts.
XIII amended so [th]at all duties laid by a State shall accrue to the use of the U. S.
It was moved and seconded to commit the 16th article together with the following proposition
To establish uniform laws upon the subject of bankruptcies and respecting the damages arising on the protest of foreign bills of exchange.
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.]
It was moved and seconded to commit the following proposition
Whensoever the act of any State, whether legislative executive or judiciary shall be attested and exemplified under the seal thereof, such attestation and exemplification shall be deemed in other State as full proof of the existence of that act — and it’s operation shall be binding in every other State, in all cases to which it may relate, and which are within the cognizance and jurisdiction of the State, wherein the said act was done
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to commit the following proposition
Full faith ought to be given in each State to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other State; and the Legislature shall by general laws determine the Proof and effect of such acts, records, and proceedings
which passed in the affirmative
and the foregoing Propositions together with the 16 article were referred to the honorable Mr Rutledge, Mr Randolph, Mr Gorham, Mr Wilson and Mr Johnson
It was moved and seconded to postpone the report of the Comme entd on ye Journal of the 24 instant take up the following proposition
That no act of the Legislature for the purpose of regulating the commerce of the United States with foreign powers or among the several States shall be passed without the assent of ⅔rds of the Members of each House.
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]
On the question to agree to the report of the Committee of eleven entered on the Journal of the 24 instant
it passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to agree to the following proposition to be inserted after the 15 article
“If any Person bound to service or labor in any of the United States shall escape into another State, He or She shall not be discharged from such service or labor in consequence of any regulations subsisting in the State to which they escape; but shall be delivered up to the person justly claiming their service or labor”
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 11; noes — 0.]
It was moved and seconded to strike out the two last clauses of the 17 article
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.] 1
It was moved and seconded to strike the following words out of the 17th article.
“but to such admission the consent of two thirds of the Members present in each House shall be necessary”
It was moved and seconded to agree to the following proposition, as a substitute for the 17 article.
“New States may be admitted by the Legislature into this union: but no new State shall be erected within the limits of any of the present States without the consent of the Legislature of such State as well as of the general Legislature.”
Separate questions being taken on the different clauses of the proposition
they passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 6; noes — 5.]
The House adjourned
New Hampshire | Massachusetts | Rhode Island | Connecticut | New York | New Jersey | Pennsylvania | Delaware | Maryland | Virginia | No Carolina | So Carolina | Georgia | Questions | ayes | noes | divided | |
[398] | no | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | To commit the 16 article ca | |||||
[399] | no | no | no | no | no | no | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | To postpone the report of the Committee entd on the Journal 24 Augt | |||||
[400] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | To agree to the amendmt to the 15 article. | |||||
[401] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | no | aye | aye | aye | To strike out the two last clauses of the 17 article | 9 | 2 | |||
[402] | no | aye | no | no | aye | no | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | To agree to the substitute for the 17 article | 6 | 5 |
Art: XVI. taken up. 2
Mr. Williamson moved to substitute in place of it, the words of the Articles of Confederation on the same subject. He did 〈not〉 understand precisely the meaning of the article.
Mr. Wilson Docr. Johnson supposed the meaning to be that Judgments in one State should be the ground of actions in other States, that acts of the Legislatures should be included, 3 for the sake of Acts of insolvency c —
Mr. Pinkney moved to commit art XVI, with the following proposition, “To establish uniform laws upon the subject of bankruptcies, and respecting the damages arising on the protest of foreign bills of exchange”
Mr Ghorum was for agreeing to the article, and committing the 〈proposition.〉
Mr. Madison was for committing both. He wished the Legislature might be authorized to provide for the execution of Judgments in other States, under such regulations as might be expedient— He thought that this might be safely done and was justified by the nature of the Union.
Mr. Randolph said there was no instance of one nation executing judgments of the Courts of another nation. He moved the following proposition.
“Whenever the Act of any State, whether Legislative Executive or Judiciary shall be attested exemplified under the seal thereof, such attestation and exemplification, shall be deemed in other States as full proof of the existence of that act — and its operation shall be binding in every other State, in all cases to which it may relate, and which are within the cognizance and jurisdiction of the State, wherein the said act was done.”
On the question for committing art: XVI with Mr. Pinkney’s motion
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa ay. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.]
The motion of Mr. Randolph was also committed nem: con:
Mr. Govr. Morris moved to commit also the following proposition on the same subject.
“Full faith ought to be given in each State to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other State; and the Legislature shall by general laws, determine the proof and effect of such acts, records, and proceedings”. and it was committed nem: contrad:
The committee appointed for these references, were Mr. Rutlidge, Mr. Randolph, Mr. Gorham, Mr Wilson, Mr Johnson.
Mr. Dickenson mentioned to the House that on examining Blackstone’s Commentaries, he found that the terms “expost facto” related to criminal cases only; 4 that they would not consequently restrain the States from retrospective laws in civil cases, and that some further provision for this purpose would be requisite.
Art. VII Sect. 6 by ye. Committee 〈of eleven〉 reported to be struck out 5 (see the 24 instant) being now taken up,
Mr. Pinkney moved to postpone the Report in favor of the following proposition — “That no act of the Legislature for the purpose of regulating the commerce of the U— S. with foreign powers, or among the several States, shall be passed without the assent of two thirds of the members of each House—” — He remarked that there were five distinct commercial interests— 1. the fisheries W. India trade, which belonged to the N. England States. 2. the interest of N. York lay in a free trade. 3. Wheat flour the Staples of the two Middle States, (N. J. Penna.)— 4 Tobo. the staple of Maryd. Virginia 〈 partly of N. Carolina.〉 6 5. Rice Indigo, the staples of S. Carolina Georgia. These different interests would be a source of oppressive regulations if no check to a bare majority should be provided. States pursue their interests with less scruple than individuals. The power of regulating commerce was a pure concession on the part of the S. States. They did not need. the protection of the N. States at present.
Mr. Martin 2ded. the motion
Genl. Pinkney said it was the true interest of the S. States to have no regulation of commerce; but considering the loss brought on the commerce of the Eastern States by the revolution, their liberal conduct towards the views * of South Carolina, and the interest the weak Southn. States had in being united with the strong Eastern States, he thought it proper that no fetters should be imposed on the power of making commercial regulations; and that his constituents though prejudiced against the Eastern States, would be reconciled to this liberality— He had himself, he said, prejudices agst the Eastern States before he came here, but would acknowledge that he had found them as liberal and candid as any men whatever.
Mr. Clymer. The diversity of commercial interests, of necessity creates difficulties, which ought not to be increased by unnecessary restrictions. The Northern middle States will be ruined, if not enabled to defend themselves against foreign regulations.
Mr. Sherman, alluding to Mr. Pinkney’s enumeration of particular interests, as requiring a security agst. abuse of the power; observed that, the diversity was of itself a security. adding that to require more than a majority to decide a question was always embarrassing as had been experienced in cases requiring the votes of nine States in Congress.
Mr. Pinkney replied that his enumeration meant the five minute interests— It still left the two great divisions of Northern Southern Interests.
Mr. Govr. Morris. opposed the object of the motion as highly injurious— Preferences to american ships will multiply them, till they can carry the Southern produce cheaper than it is now carried- — A navy was essential to security, particularly of the S. States, and can only be had by a navigation act encouraging american bottoms seamen— In those points of view then alone, it is the interest of the S. States that navigation acts should be facilitated. Shipping he said was the worst most precarious kind of property. and stood in need of public patronage.
Mr Williamson was in favor of making two thirds instead of a majority requisite, as more satisfactory to the Southern people. No useful measure he believed had been lost in Congress for want of nine votes As to the weakness of the Southern States, he was not alarmed on that account. The sickliness of their climate for invaders would prevent their being made an object. He acknowledged that he did not think the motion requiring ⅔ necessary in itself, because if a majority of Northern States should push their regulations too far, the S. States would build ships for themselves: but he knew the Southern people were apprehensive on this subject and would be pleased with the precaution.
Mr. Spaight was against the motion. The Southern States could at any time save themselves from oppression, by building ships for their own use.
Mr. Butler differed from those who considered the rejection of the motion as no concession on the part of the S. States. He considered the interests of these and of the Eastern States, to be as different as the interests of Russia and Turkey. Being notwitstanding desirous of conciliating the affections of the East: States, he should vote agst. requiring ⅔ instead of a majority.
Col: Mason. If the Govt. is to be lasting, it must be founded in the confidence affections of the people, and must be so constructed as to obtain these. The Majority will be governed by their interests. The Southern States are the minority in both Houses. Is it to be expected that they will deliver themselves bound hand foot to the Eastern States, and enable them to exclaim, in the words of Cromwell on a certain occasion — “the lord hath delivered them into our hands.
Mr. Wilson took notice of the several objections and remarked that if every peculiar interest was to be secured, unanimity ought to be required. The majority he said would be no more governed by interest than the minority— It was surely better to let the latter be bound hand and foot than the former. Great inconveniences had, he contended, been experienced in Congress from the article of confederation requiring nine votes in certain cases.
Mr. Madison. went into a pretty full view of the subject. He observed that the disadvantage to the S. States from a navigation act, lay chiefly in a temporary rise of freight, attended however with an increase of Southn. as well as Northern Shipping — with the emigration of Northern seamen merchants to the Southern States — with a removal of the existing 7 injurious retaliations among the States 〈on each other〉. The power of foreign nations to obstruct our retaliating measures 8 on them by a corrupt influence would also be less if a majority shd be made competent than if ⅔ of each House shd. be required to legislative acts in this case. An abuse of the power would be qualified with all these good effects. But he thought an abuse was rendered improbable by the provision of 2 branches — by the independence of the Senate, by the negative 9 of the Executive, by the interest of Connecticut N. Jersey which were agricultural, not commercial States; by the interior interest which was also agricultural in the most commercial States— by the accession of Western States which wd. be altogether agricultural. He added that the Southern States would derive an essential advantage in the general security afforded by the increase of our maritime strength. He stated the vulnerable situation of them all, and of Virginia in particular. The increase of the Coasting trade, and of seamen, would also be favorable to the S. States, by increasing, the consumption of their produce. If the Wealth of the Eastern should in a still greater proportion be augmented, that wealth wd. contribute the more to the public wants, and be otherwise a national benefit. 10
Mr. Rutlidge was agst. the motion of his colleague. It did not follow from a grant of the power to regulate trade, that it would be abused. At the worst a navigation act could bear hard a little while only on the S. States. As we are laying the foundation for a great empire, we ought to take a permanent view of the subject and not look at the present moment only. He reminded the House of the necessity of securing the West India trade to this country. That was the great object, and a navigation Act was necessary for obtaining it.
Mr. Randolph said that there were features so odious in the Constitution as it now stands, that he doubted whether he should be able to agree to it. A rejection of the motion would compleat the deformity of the system. He took notice of the argument in favor of giving the power over trade to a majority, drawn from the opportunity foreign powers would have of obstructing retaliating measures, if two thirds were made requisite. He did not think there was weight in that consideration— The difference between a majority two thirds did not afford room for such an opportunity. Foreign influence would also be more likely to be exerted on the President who could require three fourths by his negative— He did not mean however to enter into the merits. What he had in view was merely to pave the way for a declaration which he might be hereafter obliged to make if an accumulation of obnoxious ingredients should take place, that he could not give his assent to the plan.
Mr Gorham. If the Government is to be so fettered as to be unable to relieve the Eastern States what motive can they have to join in it, and thereby tie their own hands from measures which they could otherwise take for themselves. The Eastern States were not led to strengthen the Union by fear for their own safety. He deprecated the consequences of disunion, but if it should take place it was the Southern part of the Continent that had the most reason to dread them. He urged the improbability of a combination against the interest of the Southern States, the different situations of the Northern Middle States being a security against it. It was moreover certain that foreign ships would never be altogether excluded especially those of Nations in treaty with us.
On the question to postpone in order to take up Mr. Pinkney’s Motion
N— H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. ay. Va ay. N. C. ay— S— C. no— Geo. ay, [Ayes — 4 noes — 7.]
The Report of the Committee for striking out sect: 6. requiring two thirds of each House to pass a navigation act was then agreed to, nem: con:
Mr Butler moved to insert after art: XV. “If any person bound to service or labor in any of the U— States shall escape into another State, he or she shall not be discharged from such service or labor, in consequence of any regulations subsisting in the State to which they escape, but shall be delivered up to the person justly claiming their service or labor,” which was agreed to nem: con: 11
Art: XVII being taken up, 12 Mr. Govr. Morris moved to strike out the two last sentences, to wit “If the admission be consented to, the new States shall be admitted on the same terms with the original States— But the Legislature may make conditions with the new States, concerning the public debt, which shall be then subsisting”. — He did not wish to bind down the Legislature to admit Western States on the terms here stated.
Mr Madison opposed the motion, insisting that the Western States neither would nor ought to submit to a Union which degraded them from an equal rank with the other States.
Col. Mason— If it were possible by just means to prevent emigrations to the Western Country, it might be good policy. But go the people will as they find it for their interest, and the best policy is to treat them with that equality which will make them friends 13 not enemies.
Mr Govr Morris. did not mean to discourage the growth of the Western Country. He knew that to be impossible. He did not wish however to throw the power into their hands.
Mr Sherman, was agst. the motion, for fixing an equality of privileges by the Constitution.
Mr Langdon was in favor of the Motion. he did not know but circumstances might arise which would render it inconvenient to admit new States on terms of equality.
Mr. Williamson was for leaving the Legislature free. The existing small States enjoy an equality now, and for that reason are admitted to it in the Senate. This reason is not applicable to 〈new〉 Western States.
On Mr Govr Morris’s motion for striking out.
N. H. ay— Mas. ay— Ct ay. N— J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. no Va. no. N— C— ay. S — C— ay. Geo. ay, [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.]
Mr. L— Martin Mr Govr. Morris moved to strike out of art XVII “but to such admission the consent of two thirds of the members present shall be necessary.” Before any question was taken on this motion,
Mr Govr. Morris moved the following proposition as a substitute for the XVII art: “New States may be admitted by the Legislature into this Union: but no new State shall be erected within the limits of any of the present States, without the consent of the Legislature of such State, as well as of the Genl. Legislature” 14
The first part to Union inclusive was agreed to nem: con:
Mr. L— Martin opposed the latter part— Nothing he said would so alarm the limited States as to make the consent of the large States claiming the Western lands, necessary to the establishment of new States within their limits. It is proposed to guarantee the States. Shall Vermont be reduced by force in favor of the States claiming it? Frankland the Western country of Virginia were in a like situation.
On Mr Govr. Morris’s Motion to substitute c 〈it was agreed to〉 —
N. H. no. Mas. ay. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. no. Md no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 6; noes — 5.]
Art: XVII — before the House, as amended.
Mr. Sherman was against it. He thought it unnecessary. The Union cannot dismember a State without its consent.
Mr Langdon thought there was great weight in the argument of Mr. Luther Martin, and that the proposition substituted 〈by Mr. Govr. Morris〉 would excite a dangerous opposition to the plan.
Mr. Govr Morris thought on the contrary that the small States would be pleased with the regulation, as it holds up the idea of dismembering the large States.
Mr. Butler. If new States were to be erected without the consent of the dismembered States, nothing but confusion would ensue. Whenever taxes should press on the people, demagogues would set up their schemes of new States.
Docr. Johnson agreed in general with the ideas of Mr Sherman, but was afraid that as the clause stood, Vermont would be subjected to N— York, contrary to the faith pledged by Congress. He was of opinion that Vermont ought to be compelled to come into the Union.
Mr Langdon said his objections were connected with the case of Vermont. If they are not taken in, remain exempt from taxes, it would prove of great injury to N. Hampshire and the other neighbouring States
Mr Dickinson hoped the article would not be agreed to. He dwelt on the impropriety of requiring the small States to secure the large ones in their extensive claims of territory.
Mr. Wilson— When the majority of a State wish to divide they can do so. The aim of those in opposition to the article, he perceived, was that the Genl. Government should abet the minority, by that means divide a State against its own consent.
Mr Govr. Morris. If the forced division of the States is the object of the new System, and is to be pointed agst one or two States, he expected, the gentleman from these 15 would pretty quickly leave us.
Adjourned 16
XIIII and XV agreed to. 17 XVI. article committed.
[To commit the substitute offered to the 17 article Ayes — — 3; noes — 8.] 1
It was moved and seconded to postpone the substitute for the 17 article, agreed to yesterday, in order to take up the following amendment.
The Legislature shall have power to admit other States into the Union, and new States to be formed by the division or junction of States now in the Union, with the consent of the Legislature of such states.
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 5; noes — 6.] 2
It was moved and seconded to strike out the words “the limits” and to insert the words “the jurisdiction” in the substitute offered to the 17 article.
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 7; noes — 4.]
It was moved and seconded to insert the words “hereafter formed or” after the words “shall be” in the substitute for the 17 article
which passed in the affirmative. [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.]
It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the substitute to the 17 article as amended in order to take up the following
“The Legislature of the United States shall have power to erect new States within as well as without the territory claimed by the several States or either of them and admit the same into the Union: Provided that nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to affect the claim of the United States to vacant lands ceded to them by the late treaty of Peace”
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.] 3
On the question to agree to the substitute offered to the 17 article, amended as follows.
“New States may be admitted by the Legislature into this Union: but no new State shall be hereafter formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any of the present States without the consent of the Legislature of such State as well as of the general Legislature
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 8; noes — 3.]
It was moved and seconded to add the following clause to the last amendment.
“Nor shall any State be formed by the junction of two or more States or parts thereof without the consent of the Legislatures of such States as well as of the Legislature of the United States”
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to add the following clause to the last amendment
“Provided nevertheless that nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to affect the claim of the United States to vacant lands ceded to them by the late Treaty of peace.”
The last motion being withdrawn —
It was moved and seconded to agree to the following proposition.
Nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to alter the claims of the United States or of the individual States to the western territory but all such claims may be examined into and decided upon by the supreme Court of the United States
It was moved and seconded to postpone the last proposition in order to take up the following.
The Legislature shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States: and nothing in this Constitution contained shall be so construed as to prejudice any claims either of the United States or of any particular State
It was moved and seconded to add the following clause to the last proposition
“But all such claims may be examined into and decided upon by the Supreme Court of the United States”
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 2; noes — 8.]
On the question to agree to the following proposition
“The Legislature shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States: and nothing in this Constitution contained shall be so construed as to prejudice any claims either of the United States or of any particular State”
it passed in the affirmative 4
On the question to agree to the first clause of the 18 article — it passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to strike out the word “foreign” in the 18 article
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 10; noes — 1.] 5
It was moved and seconded to strike out the words “on the application of it’s Legislature against”
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]
It was moved and seconded to strike out the words “domestic violence” and insert the word “insurrections” in the 18 article
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 5; noes — 6.]
It was moved and seconded to insert the words “or Executive” after the word “Legislature”
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 8; noes — 2.] 6
6 See footnote on p. 459. | |||||||||||||||||
New Hampshire | Massachusetts | Rhode Island | Connecticut | New York | New Jersey | Pennsylvania | Delaware | Maryland | Virginia | No Carolina | So Carolina | Georgia | Questions | ayes | noes | divided | |
[403] | no | no | no | aye | no | aye | aye | no | no | no | no | To commit the substitute offered to the 17 article | 3 | 8 | |||
[404] | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | no | no | no | no | aye | no | To postpone the substitute to take up Mr Sherman’s motion | 5 | 6 | |||
[405] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | To add the words “hereafter formed or” | 9 | 2 | |||
[406] | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | no | no | To strike the words “limits” out to insert “jurisdict.” | 7 | 4 | |||
[407] | no | no | no | aye | no | aye | aye | no | no | no | no | To postpone the substitute to ye 17 article in order to take up the proposition from Maryland | 3 | 8 | |||
[408] | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | no | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | To agree to the substitute to ye 17 article as amended | 8 | 3 | |||
[409] | no | no | no | aye | no | no | aye | no | no | no | To agree to the amendmt offered by Maryland | 2 | 8 | ||||
[410] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | 10 | 1 | ||||
[411] | no | no | no | aye | aye | aye | no | no | no | no | no | To strike out “on application of it’s Legislature” | 3 | 8 | |||
[412] | no | no | no | aye | no | no | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | To insert “insurrections” | 5 | 6 | |||
[413] 6 | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | To insert “or Executive” | 8 | 2 | 1 | |||
[414] | no | no | no | no | no | no | aye | no | no | no | no | in the recess of the Legislature | |||||
[415] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | To agree to ye 18 article as amended | |||||
[416] | aye | aye | dd | aye | aye | aye | dd | aye | no | aye | aye | To agree to the 20 article | 8 | 1 | 2 | ||
[417] | no | no | no | aye | no | aye | aye | no | no | no | no | To take up the report of the Committee of eleven | 3 | 8 |
It was moved and seconded to add the following clause to the last amendment
“in the recess of the Legislature”
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 1; noes — 10.]
Separate questions being taken on the several clauses of the 18 article as amended
they passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 9; noes — 2] 7
On the question to agree to the 19 article as reported
it passed in the affirmative
It was moved or seconded to add the words “or affirmation” after the word “oath” 20 article
which passed in the affirmative.
On the question to agree to the 20 article as amended
it passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 8; noes — 1; divided — 2.]
It was moved and seconded to add the following clause to the 20 Article.
“But no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the authority of the United States”
which passed unan: in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to take up the report of the Committee of eleven.
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]
The House adjourned
Art XVII resumed for a question on it as amended by Mr. Govr. Morris’s substitutes
Mr. Carrol moved to strike out so much of the article as requires the consent of the State to its being divided. 8 He was aware that the object of this prerequisite might be to prevent domestic disturbances, but such was our situation with regard to the Crown lands, and the sentiments of Maryland on that subject, that he perceived we should again be at sea, if no guard was provided for the right of the U. States to the back lands. He suggested that it might be proper to provide that nothing in the Constitution should affect the Right of the U. S. to lands ceded by G. Britain in the Treaty of peace, and proposed a committment to a member from each State. He assurred the House that this was a point of a most serious nature. It was desirable above all things that the act of the Convention might be agreed to unanimously. But should this point be disregarded, he believed that all risks would be run by a considerable minority, sooner than give their concurrence.
Mr. L. Martin 2ded. the motion for a committment.
Mr. Rutlidge is it to be supposed that the States are to be cut up without their own consent. The case of Vermont will probably be particularly provided for. There could be no room to fear, that Virginia or N— Carolina would call on the U. States to maintain their Government over the Mountains.
Mr. Williamson said that N. Carolina was well disposed to give up her Western lands, but attempts at compulsion was not the policy of the U. S. He was for doing nothing in the constitution in the present case, and for leaving the whole matter in Statu quo.
Mr Wilson was against the committment. Unanimity was of great importance, but not to be purchased by the majority’s yielding to the minority. He should have no objection to leaving the case of New States as heretofore. He knew of nothing that would give greater or juster alarm than the doctrine, that a political society is to be torne asunder without its own consent—
On Mr. Carrol’s motion for commitment
N. H. no 9 Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no. Del— ay— Md. ay— Va. no— N— C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]
Mr Sherman moved to postpone the substitute for art: XVII agreed to yesterday in order to take up the following amendment “The Legislature shall have power to admit other States into the Union, and new States to be formed by the division or junction of States now in the Union, with the consent of the Legislature of such State” (The first part was meant for the case of Vermont to secure its admission)
On the question, 〈it passed in the Negative〉
N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C ay. Geo. no. [Ayes — 5; noes — 6.]
Docr. Johnson 10 moved to insert the words “hereafter formed or” after the words “shall be” in the substitute for art: XVII, (the more clearly to save Vermont as being already formed into a State, from a dependence on the consent of N. York to her admission.)
〈The motion was agreed to Del. Md. only dissenting.〉 11
Mr Governr. Morris moved to strike out the word “limits” in the substitute, and insert the word “jurisdiction” (This also was meant to guard the case of Vermont, the jurisdiction of N. York not extending over Vermont which was in the exercise of sovereignty, tho’ Vermont was within the asserted limits of New York)
On this question
N— H— ay— Mas— ay. Ct ay— N. J. no. Pa. ay. 〈Del. ay〉 12 Md. ay. Va ay— N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 7; noes — 4.]
Mr. L. Martin, urged the unreasonableness of forcing guaranteeing the people of Virginia beyond the Mountains, the Western people, of N. Carolina. of Georgia, the people of Maine, to continue under the States now governing them, without the consent of those States to their separation. Even if they should become the majority, the majority of Counties, as in Virginia may still hold fast the dominion over them. Again the majority may place 13 the seat of Government entirely among themselves for their own conveniency, and still keep the injured parts of the States in subjection, under the guarantee of the Genl. Government agst. domestic violence. He wished Mr Wilson had thought a little sooner of the value of political bodies. 14 In the beginning, when the rights of the small States were in question, they were phantoms, ideal beings. Now when the Great States were to be affected, political Societies were of a sacred nature. He repeated and enlarged on the unreasonableness of requiring the small States to guarantee the Western claims of the large ones. — It was said yesterday by Mr Govr Morris, that if the large States were to be split to pieces without their consent, their representatives here would take their leave. If the Small States are to be required to guarantee them in this manner, it will be found that the Representatives of other States will with equal firmness take their leave of the Constitution on the table.
It was moved by Mr. L. Martin to postpone the substituted article, in order to take up the following. 15
“The Legislature of the U— S— shall have power to erect New States within as well as without the territory claimed by the several States or either of them, and admit the same into the Union: provided that nothing in this constitution shall be construed to affect the claim of the U— S. to vacant lands ceded to them by the late treaty of peace— which passed in the negative: 〈N. J. Del. Md. only ay.〉 16
On the question to agree to Mr. Govr. Morris’s substituted article as amended in the words following,
“New States may be admitted by the Legislature into the Union: but no new State shall be hereafter formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any of the present States without the consent of the Legislature of such State as well as of the General Legislature”
N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J— no— Pa. ay. Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N— C. ay— S. C— ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 8; noes — 3.]
Mr. Dickinson moved to add the following clause to the last —
“Nor shall any State be formed by the junction of two or more States or parts thereof, without the consent of the Legislatures of such States, as well as of the Legislature of the U. States”. which was agreed to without a count of the Votes.
Mr Carrol moved to add — “Provided nevertheless that nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to affect the claim of the U. S. to vacant lands ceded to them by the Treaty of peace”. This he said might be understood as relating to lands not claimed by any particular States. but he had in view also some of the claims of particular States.
Mr. Wilson was agst. the motion. There was nothing in the Constitution affecting one way or the other the claims of the U. S. it was best to insert nothing, leaving every thing on that litigated subject in statu quo.
Mr. Madison considered the claim of the U. S. as in fact favored by the jurisdiction of the Judicial power of the U— S— over controversies to which they should be parties. He thought it best on the whole to be silent on the subject. He did not view the proviso of Mr. Carrol as dangerous; but to make it neutral and fair, it ought to go farther declare that the claims of particular States also should not be affected.
Mr. Sherman thought the proviso harmless, especially with the addition suggested by Mr. Madison in favor of the claims of particular States.
Mr. Baldwin did not wish any undue advantage to be given to Georgia. He thought the proviso proper with the addition proposed. It should be remembered that if Georgia has gained much by the Cession in the Treaty of peace, she was in danger during the war, of a Uti possidetis.
Mr. Rutlidge thought it wrong to insert a proviso where there was nothing which it could restrain, or on which it could operate.
Mr. Carrol withdrew his motion and moved the following,
“Nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to alter the claims of the U. S. or of the individual States to the Western territory, but all such claims shall be examined into decided upon, by the Supreme Court of the U. States.”
Mr Govr Morris moved to postpone this in order to take up the following. “The Legislature shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the U. States; and nothing in this constitution contained, shall be so construed as to prejudice any claims either of the U— S— or of any particular State,” — The postponemt. agd. to nem. con.
Mr. L. Martin moved to amend the proposition of Mr Govr Morris by adding — “But all such claims may be examined into decided upon by the supreme Court of the U— States”.
Mr. Govr. Morris. this is unnecessary, as all suits to which the U. S— are parties— are already to be decided by the Supreme Court.
Mr. L. Martin, it is proper in order to remove all doubts on this point.
Question on Mr. L— Martin’s amendatory motion
N— H— no. Mas— no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. ay. Va. no — States not farther called the negatives being sufficient the point given up. 17
The Motion of Mr. Govr. Morris was then agreed to, 〈Md. alone dissenting.〉 18
Art: XVIII being taken up, 19 — the word “foreign” was struck out. 〈nem: con: as superfluous, being implied in the term “invasion”〉 20
Mr. Dickinson moved to strike out “on the application of its Legislature against” He thought it of essential importance to the tranquillity of the U— S. that they should in all cases suppress domestic violence, which may proceed from the State Legislature itself, or from disputes between the two branches where such exist
Mr. Dayton mentioned the Conduct of Rho. Island as shewing the necessity of giving latitude to the power of the U— S. on this subject.
On the question
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay— Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo— no [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]
On a question for striking out “domestic violence” 〈and insertg. “insurrections” — it passed in the negative.〉 N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. 〈no〉 Del no. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay [Ayes — 5; noes — 6.] 21
Mr. Dickinson moved to insert the words, “or Executive” after the words “application of its Legislature” — The occasion itself he remarked might hinder the Legislature from meeting.
On this question
N. H. ay. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md divd. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 8; noes — 2; divided — 1.]
Mr. L— Martin moved to subjoin to the last amendment the words “in the recess of the Legislature” On which question
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo— no. [Ayes — 1; noes —9.] 22
On Question on the last clause as amended
N. H. ay. Mas— ay. Ct. ay— N. J. ay— Pa. ay. Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N— C— ay— S— C. ay. Geo— ay, [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.]
Art: XIX taken up. 23
Mr. Govr. Morris suggested that the Legislature should be left at liberty to call a Convention, whenever they please.
The art: was agreed to nem: con:
Art: XX. taken up. 24 — “or affirmation” was added after “oath.”
Mr. Pinkney. moved to add to the art: — “but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the authority of the U. States” 25
Mr. Sherman thought it unnecessary, the prevailing liberality being a sufficient security agst. such tests.
Mr. Govr. Morris Genl. Pinkney approved the motion,
The motion was agreed to nem: con: 〈and then the whole Article, N— C. only no — Md. divided.〉 26
Art: XXI. taken up. viz: “The ratifications of the Conventions of States shall be sufficient for organizing this Constitution.”
Mr. Wilson proposed to fill the blank with “seven” that being a majority of the whole number sufficient for the commencement of the plan.
Mr. Carrol moved to postpone the article in order to take up the Report of the Committee of Eleven (see Tuesday Augst: 28) — and on the question
N. H— no. Mas— no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]
Mr. Govr. Morris thought the blank ought to be filled in a twofold way, so as to provide for the event of the ratifying States being contiguous which would render a smaller number sufficient, and the event of their being dispersed, which wd require a greater number for the introduction of the Government.
Mr. Sherman. observed that the States being now confederated by articles which require unanimity in changes, he thought the ratification in this case of ten States at least ought to be made necessary.
Mr Randolph was for filling the blank with “Nine” that being a respectable majority of the whole, and being a number made familiar by the constitution of the existing Congress.
Mr Wilson mentioned “eight” as preferable.
Mr. Dickinson asked whether the concurrence of Congress is to be essential to the establishment of the system, whether the refusing States in the Confederacy could be deserted — and whether Congress could concur in contravening the system under which they acted?
Mr. Madison. remarked that if the blank should be filled with “seven” eight, or “nine” — the Constitution as it stands might be put in force over the whole body of the people. tho’ less than a majority of them should ratify it.
Mr. Wilson. As the Constitution stands, the States only which ratify can be bound. We must he said in this case go to the original powers of Society, The House on fire must be extinguished, without a scrupulous regard to ordinary rights.
Mr. Butler was in favor of “nine”. He revolted at the idea, that one or two States should restrain the rest from consulting their safety.
Mr. Carrol moved to fill the blank with “the thirteen”. unanimity being necessary to dissolve the existing confederacy which had been unanimously established.
Mr King thought this amendt. necessary, otherwise as the Constitution now stands it will operate on the whole though ratified by a part only.
Adjourned
XVII article debated by Maryland obtained an alteration so that the claim of the U. S. to the Crown lands or Western territory may be decided upon by the supreme judiciary —
XVIIII agreed to.
Endeavoured to recall the house to the reported propositions from maryland, to prevent the U. S. from giving prefe[re]nces to one State above another or to the shipping of one State above another, in collecting or laying duties. — The house averse to taking any thing up till this system is got through. XXI. adjourned on this article.
Proposed to have a private conference with each other to-morrow before meeting of the convention to take measures for carrying out propositions. etc —
It was moved and seconded to insert the words “between the said States” after the word “constitution” in the 20 [21] 1 article
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 9; noes — 1.]
It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the 20 [21] 1 article to take up the reports of Committees which have not been acted on
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 5; noes — 5; divided — 1.]
[To postpone the 21 to take up the 22 articles Ayes — 5; noes — 6.] 2
It was moved and seconded to strike the words “conventions of” out of the 21st article
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 4; noes — 6.]
It was moved and seconded to fill up the blank in the 21st article with the word “Thirteen”
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 1; noes — 9.]
It was moved and seconded to fill up the blank in the 21st article with the word “Ten”
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]
It was moved and seconded to fill up the blank in the 21st article as follows.
“any seven or more States entitled to 33 Members at least in the House of representatives according to the allotment made in the 3rd sect. 4th article.
It was moved and seconded to fill up the blank in the 21st article with the word “nine”
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 8; noes — 3.]
On the question to agree to the 21st article as amended.
it passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 10; noes — 1.]
It was moved and seconded to strike the words “for their approbation” out of the 22nd article
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 7; noes — 4.]
It was moved and seconded to agree to the following amendment to the 22nd article
“This Constitution shall be laid before the United States in Congress assembled — and it is the opinion of this Convention that it should afterwards be submitted to a Convention chosen in each State in order to receive the ratification of such Convention: to which end the several Legislatures ought to provide for the calling Conventions within their respective States as speedily as circumstances will permit.”
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]
It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the 22nd article
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]
On the question to agree to the 22nd article as amended.
it passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 10; noes — 1.]
It was moved and seconded to fill up the blank in the 23rd article with the word “Nine”
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to agree to the 23rd article as far as the words
“assigned by Congress” inclusive
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to postpone the remainder of the 23rd article
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]
It was moved and seconded to strike the words
“choose the President of the United States and” out of the 23rd article
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 8; noes — 2; divided — 1.]
On the question to agree to the 23rd article as amended.
it passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to take up the report of the Committee of eleven entered on the journal of the 28th instant On the question to agree to the following clause of the report, to be inserted after the 4th section of the 7th article,
“nor shall any regulation of commerce or revenue give preference to the ports of One State over those of another”
it passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the following clause of the report
“or oblige Vessels bound to or from any State to enter clear or pay duties in another”
it passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 8; noes — 2.] 3
It was moved and seconded to strike out the word “tonnage”
which passed in the affirmative.
On the question to agree to the following clause of the report
“and all duties, imposts, and excises, laid by the Legislature, shall be uniform throughout the United States”
it passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to refer such parts of the Constitution as have been postponed, and such parts of reports as have not been acted on to a Committee of a Member from each State
which passed in the affirmative
and a Committee was appointed by ballot of The honorable Mr Gilman, Mr King, Mr Sherman, Mr Brearley, Mr G. Morris, Mr Dickinson, Mr Carrol, Mr Madison, Mr Williamson, Mr Butler and Mr Baldwin.
The House adjourned. 4
New Hampshire | Massachusetts | Rhode Island | Connecticut | New York | New Jersey | Pennsylvania | Delaware | Maryland | Virginia | No Carolina | So Carolina | Georgia | Questions | ayes | noes | divided | |
[418] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | To add the words “between the said States” to ye 21 article | 9 | 1 | ||||
[419] | aye | no | dd | no | aye | aye | aye | no | no | no | aye | To postpone the 20 article to take up reports of Committees | 5 | 5 | 1 | ||
[420] | no | no | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | no | no | To postpone the 21 to take up the 22 articles | 5 | 5 | |||
[421] | no | no | aye | no | aye | no | aye | no | no | aye | To strike out the words “the Conventions of” | 4 | 6 | ||||
[422] | no | no | no | no | no | no | aye | no | no | no | To fill up the blank with “thirteen 21 article 13. | ||||||
[423] | no | no | aye | aye | no | no | aye | no | no | no | aye | to fill up “Ten | 4 | 7 | |||
[424] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | no | no | aye | To fill up the blank in the 21 article wh “nine” | 8 | 3 | |||
[425] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | To agree to the 21 article as amended | 10 | 1 | |||
[426] | aye | no | aye | no | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | no | To strike out “for their approbation” 22 article | 7 | 4 | |||
[427] | aye | aye | no | no | aye | aye | no | no | no | no | no | To agree to the amendmt offered to ye 22 article | 4 | 7 | |||
[428] | no | no | no | aye | no | no | aye | no | aye | no | no | To postpone the 22 article. | 3 | 8 | |||
[429] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | To agree to ye 22 article as amended | 10 | 1 | |||
[430] | no | aye | no | no | no | aye | no | aye | aye | no | no | To postpone the latter clause of ye 23 article | 4 | 7 | |||
[431] | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | dd | aye | aye | no | aye | To strike out the words choose the Presidt of the U. S. and” | |||||
[432] | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | To agree to the 2nd clause of the report Committee of eleven. | 8 | 2 |
Mr. King moved to add to the end of art: XXI the words “between the said States” so as to confine the operation of the Govt. to the States ratifying it.
On the question
N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N— J— ay. Pa. ay. Md. no. Virga. ay. N. C. ay. 〈S. C. ay.〉 5 Geo. ay. [Ayes — 9; noes — 1.]
Mr. Madison proposed to fill the blank in the article with “Any seven or more States entitled to thirty three members at least in the House of Representatives according to the allotment made in the 3 Sect: of art: 4.” This he said would require the concurrence of a majority of both the States and people.
Mr. Sherman doubted the propriety of authorizing less than all the States to execute the Constitution, considering the nature of the existing Confederation. Perhaps all the States may concur, and on that supposition it is needless to hold out a breach of faith.
Mr. Clymer and Mr. Carrol moved to postpone the consideration of Art: XXI in order to take up the Reports of Committees not yet acted on— On this question, 〈the States were equally divided.〉 N. H. ay. Mas. no. Ct. divd. N. J— no. Pa. ay— Del— ay. Md. ay. Va. no. N. C no. S. C. no. G. ay. [Ayes — 5; noes — 5; divided — 1.]
Mr Govr. Morris 6 moved to strike out “Conventions of the” after “ratifications”. leaving the States to pursue their own modes of ratification.
Mr. Carrol mentioned the mode of altering the Constitution of Maryland pointed out therein, and that no other mode could be pursued in that State.
Mr. King thought that striking out “Conventions”. as the requisite mode was equivalent to giving up the business altogether. Conventions alone, which will avoid all the obstacles from the complicated formation of the Legislatures, will succeed, and if not positively required by the plan, its enemies will oppose that mode.
Mr. Govr. Morris said he meant to facilitate the adoption of the plan, by leaving the modes approved by the several State Constitutions to be followed.
Mr. Madison considered it best to require Conventions; Among other reasons, for this, that the powers given to the Genl. Govt. being taken from the State Govts the Legislatures would be more disinclined than conventions composed in part at least of other men; and if disinclined, they could devise modes apparently promoting, but really. thwarting the ratification. The difficulty in Maryland was no greater than in other States, where no mode of change was pointed out by the Constitution, and all officers were under oath to support it. The people were in fact, the fountain of all power, and by resorting to them, all difficulties were got over. They could alter constitutions as they pleased. It was a principle in the Bills of rights, that first principles might be resorted to.
Mr. McHenry said that the officers of Govt. in Maryland were under oath to support the mode of alteration prescribed by the Constitution.
Mr Ghorum urged the expediency of “Conventions” also Mr. Pinkney, for reasons, formerly urged on a discussion of this question.
Mr. L. Martin insisted on a reference to the State Legislatures. He urged the danger of commotions from a resort to the people to first principles in which the Governments might be on one side the people on the other. He was apprehensive of no such consequences however in Maryland, whether the Legislature or the people should be appealed to. Both of them would be generally against the Constitution. He repeated also the peculiarity in the Maryland Constitution.
Mr. King observed that the Constitution of Massachusetts was made unalterable till the year 1790, yet this was no difficulty with him. The State must have contemplated a recurrence to first principles before they sent deputies to this Convention.
Mr. Sherman moved to postpone art. XXI. to take up art: XXII on which question,
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay— N. J. no— P. ay— Del— ay— Md ay. Va. ay. 〈N. C. no〉 7 S. C. no— Geo— no— [Ayes — 5; noes — 6.]
On Mr Govr. Morris’s motion to strike out “Conventions of the,” 〈it was negatived.〉
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa ay. Del. no. Md. ay— Va no— S— C no— Geo. ay. [Ayes — 4; noes — 6.]
On filling the blank 〈in Art: XXI〉 with “thirteen” moved by Mr. Carrol, L. Martin
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. — All no— except Maryland.
Mr. Sherman Mr. Dayton moved to fill the blank with “ten”
Mr. Wilson supported the motion of Mr. Madison, requiring a majority both of the people and of States. 8
Mr Clymer was also in favor of it.
Col: Mason was for preserving ideas familiar to the people. Nine States had been required in all great cases under the Confederation that number was on that account preferable
On the question for “ten”
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct ay. N. J— ay. Pa. no. Del— no. Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]
On question for “nine”
N— H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay— N— J. ay. Pa. ay— Del. ay. Md. ay— Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo— ay, [Ayes — 8; noes — 3.]
Art: XXI. 〈as amended〉 was then agreed to by all the States, Maryland excepted, Mr. Jenifer being, ay— 9
Art. XXII taken up, to wit, “This Constitution shall be laid before the U— S. in Congs. assembled for their approbation; and it is the opinion of this Convention that it should be afterwards submitted to a Convention chosen, 〈in each State〉 under the recommendation of its Legislature, in order to receive the ratification of such Convention”
Mr. Govr. Morris Mr. Pinkney moved to strike out the words “for their approbation” 10 On this question
N. H. ay. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N— J. ay. * Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. no Va. ay. N. C— ay. S. C— ay. Geo. no. [Ayes — 8; noes — 3.]
Mr Govr. Morris Mr. Pinkney then moved to amend the art: so as to read
“This Constitution shall be laid before the U. S. in Congress assembled; and it is the opinion of this Convention that it should afterwards be submitted to a Convention chosen in each State, in order to receive the ratification of such Convention: to which end the several Legislatures ought to provide for the calling Conventions within their respective States as speedily as circumstances will permit”. — Mr. Govr. Morris said his object was to impress in stronger terms the necessity of calling Conventions in order to prevent enemies to the plan, from giving it the go by. When it first appears, with the sanction of this Convention, the people will be favorable to it. By degrees the State officers, those interested in the State Govts will intrigue turn the popular current against it. 11
Mr. L— Martin believed Mr. Morris to be right, that after a while the people would be agst. it. but for a different reason from that alledged. He believed they would not ratify it unless hurried into it by surprize.
Mr. Gerry enlarged on the idea of Mr. L. Martin in which he concurred, represented the system as full of vices, and dwelt on the impropriety of destroying the existing Confederation, without the unanimous Consent of the parties to it:
Question on Mr Govr. Morris’s and Mr. Pinckney’s motion
N. H— ay. Mas. ay. Ct no. N— J. no. Pa. ay. Del— ay. Md. no. Va no. N— C— no— S— C. no. Geo. no— [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]
Mr. Gerry moved to postpone art: XXII.
Col: Mason 2ded. the motion, declaring that he would sooner chop off his right hand than put it to the Constitution as it now stands. He wished to see some points not yet decided brought to a decision, before being compelled to give a final opinion on this article. Should these points be improperly settled, his wish would then be to bring the whole subject before another general Convention.
Mr. Govr Morris was ready for a postponement. He had long wished for another Convention, that will have the firmness to provide a vigorous Government, which we are afraid to do.
Mr. Randolph stated his idea to be, in case the final form of the Constitution should not permit him to accede to it, that the State Conventions should be at liberty to propose amendments to be submitted to another General Convention which may reject or incorporate them, as shall be judged proper.
On the question for postponing
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct no. N. J— ay— Pa. no. Del. no. Md ay— Va. no. N. C. ay. S— C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]
On the question on Art: XXII
N. H. 〈ay.〉 12 Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay— Del. ay. Md. no. Va ay. N— C. ay. S— C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 10; noes — 1.]
Art: XXIII being taken up. 13 as far the words “assigned by Congress” inclusive, was agreed to nem: con: the blank having been first filled with the word “nine” as of course.
On a motion for postponing the residue of the clause, concerning the choice of the President c,
N. H. no. Mas. ay. Ct. no. N— J. no. Pa. no. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S— C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]
Mr. Govr. Morris then moved to strike out the words “choose the President of the U. S. and” — this point, of choosing the President not being yet finally determined, on this question
N— H— no. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. divd. Va. ay. N— C. ay— S. C. ay— * Geo. ay [Ayes — 9; noes — 1; divided — 1.]
Art: XXIII as amended was then agreed to nem: con:
The report of the grand Committee of eleven made by Mr. Sherman was then taken up (see Aug: 28).
On the question to agree to the following clause, to be inserted after sect— 4. art: VII. “nor shall any regulation of commerce or revenue give preference to the ports of one State over those of another”. 14 Agreed to nem: con:
On the clause “or oblige vessels bound to or from any State to enter clear or pay duties in another”
Mr. Madison thought the restriction wd. be inconvenient, as in the River Delaware, if a vessel cannot be required to make entry below the jurisdiction of Pennsylvania.
Mr. Fitzimmons admitted that it might be inconvenient, but thought it would be a greater inconveniency to require vessels bound to Philada. to enter below the jurisdiction of the State.
Mr. Gorham Mr. Langdon, contended that the Govt would be so fettered by this clause, as to defeat the good purpose of the plan. They mentioned the situation of the trade of Mas. N. Hampshire, the case of Sandy Hook which is in the State of N. Jersey, but where precautions agst smuggling into N. York, ought to be established by the Genl. Government.
Mr. McHenry said the clause would not shreen a vessel from being obliged to take an officer on board as a security for due entry c—.
Mr Carrol was anxious that the clause should be agreed to. He assured the House, that this was a tender point in Maryland.
Mr Jenifer urged the necessity of the clause in the same point of view
On the question for agreeing to it
N. H. no. Ct ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md ay. Va. ay. N— C— ay. S— C. no. Geo. ay, [Ayes — 8; noes — 2.] 15
The word “tonnage” was struck out, nem: con: as comprehended in “duties”
On question On the clause of the Report “and all duties, imposts excises, laid by the Legislature shall be uniform throughout the U. S.” It was agreed to nem: con: *
On motion of Mr. Sherman it was agreed to refer such parts of the Constitution as have been postponed, and such parts of Reports as have not been acted on, to a Committee of a member from each State; the Committee appointed by ballot, being— Mr Gilman, Mr. King. Mr Sherman. Mr. Brearley, Mr. Govr. Morris, Mr. Dickinson, Mr. Carrol, Mr. Madison, Mr. Williamson, Mr. Butler Mr. Baldwin.
(The House adjourned)
Filled up the blank in the XXI article with 9: 8 States afirm: 3 Neg. Maryland moved to fill it up with 13 but stood alone on the question. G. W. was for 7.
Struck out for their approbation in the 22 Article. filled up the blank in the 23 article with 9, and amended the last clause by striking out choose the president of the U. S. and.
The system being thus far agreed to the restrictory propositions from Maryland were taken up — and carried — against them N. Hamp. Massachus. 17 and S. Carolina.
Refered to a grand committee all the sections of the system under postponement and a report of a committee of 5 with several motions.
Adjourned.
The honorable Mr Brearley from the Committee of eleven to whom such parts of the Constitution, as have been postponed, and such parts of reports, as have not been acted on, were referred — informed the House that the Committee were prepared to report partially —
The following report was then read “That in lieu of the 9th section of the 6th article the following be inserted
The Members of each House shall be ineligible to any civil Office under the authority of the United States during the time for which they shall respectively be elected —And no Person holding any office under the United States shall be a Member of either House during his continuance in office.
The honorable Mr Rutledge from the Committee to whom sundry propositions, entered on the Journal of the 28th ultimo were referred, informed the House that the Committee were prepared to report. — The following report was then read.
That the following additions be made to the report vizt
after the word “States” in the last line on the margin of the 3rd page, 1 add
“To establish uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies” — and insert the following as the 16th article vizt.
“Full faith and credit ought to be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and Judicial proceedings of every other State, and the Legislature shall by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect which judgments obtained in one State shall have in another.
It was moved and seconded to adjourn [Ayes — 7; noes — 1; divided — 1.] 2
The House adjourned till Monday next at 10 o’clock A. M.
New Hampshire | Massachusetts | Rhode Island | Connecticut | New York | New Jersey | Pennsylvania | Delaware | Maryland | Virginia | No Carolina | So Carolina | Georgia | Questions | ayes | noes | divided | |
[433] | dd | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | To adjourn |
Mr. Brearley from the Comme. of eleven to which were referred yesterday, the postponed part of the Constitution, parts of Reports not acted upon, made the following partial report.
That in lieu of the 9th. sect: of art: 6. the words following be inserted viz “The members of each House shall be ineligible to any civil office under the authority of the U. S. during the time for which they shall respectively be elected, and no person holding an office under the U. S. shall be a member of either House during his continuance in office.”
Mr Rutlidge from the Committee to whom were referred sundry propositions (see Aug: 29), together with art: XVI, reported that the following additions be made to the Report — viz.
After the word “States” in the last line on the Margin of the 3d. page (see the printed Report) 3 — add “to establish uniform laws on the subject of Bankruptcies”
and insert the following as Art: XVI — viz
“Full faith and credit ought to be given in each State to the public acts, records, and Judicial proceedings of every other State, and the Legislature shall by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, Records, proceedings shall be proved, and the effect which Judgments obtained in one State, shall have in another”.
After receiving these reports
The House adjourned to 10 0C. on Monday next 4
Adjourned to let the committee sit.
It was moved and seconded to strike out the words
“judgments obtained in one State shall have in another” and to insert the word “thereof” after the word “effect” in the report from the Committee of five entered on the Journal of the 1st instant
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 6; noes — 3.] 1
It was moved and seconded to strike out the words “ought to” and to insert the word “shall” and to strike out the word “shall” and to insert the word “may” in the report entered on the Journal of the 1st instant.
which passed in the affirmative.
On the question to agree to the report amended as follows.
Full faith and credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other State, and the Legislature may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved and the effect thereof”
which passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the following clause of the report
“To establish uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies”
it passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 9; noes — 1.]
[To adjourn Ayes — 2; noes — 8.] 2
It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the report from Committee of eleven entered on the Journal of the 1st instant, in order to take up the following
The Members of each House shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States for which they or any other for their benefit receive any salary, fees, or emoluments of any kind and the acceptance of such office shall vacate their seats respectively
On the question to postpone
it passed in the negative. [Ayes — 2; noes — 8.]
[To adjourn Ayes — 4; noes — 6.] 3
It was moved and seconded to insert the word “created” before the word “during” in the report of the Committee of eleven
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 5; noes — 5.]
It was moved and seconded to insert the words “created or the emoluments whereof shall have been encreased” before the word “during” in the report of the Committee.
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 5; noes — 4; divided — 1.]
[on the last question Ayes — 5; noes — 3; divided — 1.] 4
Separate questions having been taken on the report as amended they passed in the affirmative
and the report, as amended, is as follows
“The Members of each House shall be ineligible to any civil office under the authority of the United States created, or the emoluments whereof shall have been encreased during the time for which they shall respectively be elected — and no person holding any office under the United States shall be a Member of either House during his continuance in Office.”
The House then adjourned.
New Hampshire | Massachusetts | Rhode Island | Connecticut | New York | New Jersey | Pennsylvania | Delaware | Maryland | Virginia | No Carolina | So Carolina | Georgia | Questions | ayes | noes | divided | |
[434] | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | no | aye | aye | no | To agree to Mr Morris’s amendmt to the report of the Come of five. | 6 | 3 | |||||
[435] | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | To establish uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies | 9 | 1 | ||||
[436] | no | no | no | no | no | aye | aye | no | no | no | To adjourn | 2 | 8 | ||||
[437] | no | no | no | no | aye | no | no | aye | no | no | 2 | 8 | |||||
[438] | no | no | no | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | no | To adjourn | 4 | 6 | ||||
[439] | aye | aye | no | no | aye | no | aye | aye | no | no | To agree to the amendment “created” | 5 | 5 | ||||
[440] | aye | aye | no | no | aye | no | aye | aye | no | dd | “created, or the emoluments whereof shall have been encreased” | 5 | 4 | 1 | |||
[441] | aye | aye | no | aye | no | aye | aye | no | dd | on the last question | 5 | 3 | 1 |
Mr. Govr. Morris moved to amend the Report concerning the respect to be paid to Acts Records c of one State, in other States (see Sepr. 1.) by striking out “judgments obtained in one State shall have in another” and to insert the word “thereof” after the word “effect”
Col: Mason favored the motion, particularly if the “effect” was to be restrained to judgments Judicial proceedings
Mr. Wilson remarked, that if the Legislature were not allowed to declare the effect the provision would amount to nothing more than what now takes place among all Independent Nations.
Docr. Johnson thought the amendment as worded would authorize the Genl. Legislature to declare the effect of Legislative acts of one State, in another State.
Mr. Randolph considered it as strengthening the general objection agst. the plan, that its definition of the powers of the Government was so loose as to give it opportunities of usurping all the State powers. He was for not going farther than the Report, which enables the Legislature to provide for the effect of Judgments.
On the amendment as moved by Mr Govr. Morris Mas. ay. Ct ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Md. no. Va no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no. [Ayes — 6; noes — 3.] 5
On motion of Mr. Madison, “ought to” was struck out, and “shall” inserted; and “shall” between “Legislature” “by general laws” struck out, and “may” inserted, nem: con:
On the question to agree to the report as amended viz “Full faith credit shall be given in each State to the public acts, records judicial proceedings of every other State, and the Legislature may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts records proceedings 6 shall be proved, and the effect thereof” Agreed to witht. a count of Sts.
The clause in the Report “To establish uniform laws on the subject of Bankruptcies” being taken up.
Mr. Sherman observed that Bankruptcies were in some cases punishable with death by the laws of England— He did not chuse to grant a power by which that might be done here.
Mr Govr Morris said this was an extensive delicate subject. He would agree to it because he saw no danger of abuse of the power by the Legislature of the U— S.
On the question to agree to the clause
N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. no. N. J— ay— Pa. ay. Md ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay— Geo. ay. [Ayes — 9; noes — 1.]
Mr. Pinkney moved to postpone the Report of the Committee of Eleven (see Sepr. 1) in order to take up the following,
“The members of each House shall be incapable of holding any office under the U— S— for which they or any other for their benefit, receive any salary, fees or emoluments of any kind, and the acceptance of such office shall vacate their seats respectively.” 7 He was strenuously opposed to an ineligibility of members to office, and therefore wished to restrain the proposition to a mere incompatibility. He considered the eligibility of members of the Legislature to the honorable offices of Government, as resembling the policy of the Romans, in making the temple of virtue the road to the temple of fame.
On this question
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct no— N— J. no. Pa ay. Md. no Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C— no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 2; noes — 8.]
Mr King moved to insert the word “created” before the word “during” in the Report of the Committee. This he said would exclude 8 the members of the first Legislature under the Constitution, as most of the Offices wd. then be created.
Mr. Williamson 2ded. the motion, 9 He did not see why members of the Legislature should be ineligible to vacancies happening during the term of their election, 10
Mr Sherman was for entirely incapacitating members of the Legislature. He thought their eligibility to offices would give too much influence to the Executive. He said the incapacity ought at least to be extended to cases where salaries should be increased, as well as created, during the term of the member. He mentioned also the expedient by which the restriction could be evaded to wit: an existing officer might be translated to an office created, and a member of the Legislature be then put into the office vacated.
Mr Govr. Morris contended that the eligibility of members to office wd. lessen the influence of the Executive. If they cannot be appointed themselves, the Executive will appoint their relations friends, retaining the service votes of the members for his purposes in the Legislature. Whereas the appointment of the members deprives him of such an advantage.
Mr. Gerry. thought the eligibility of members would have the effect of opening batteries agst. good officers, in order to drive them out make way for members of the Legislature.
Mr Gorham was in favor of the amendment. Without it we go further than has been done in any of the States, or indeed any other Country, The experience of the State Governments where there was no such ineligibility, proved that it was not necessary; on the contrary that the eligibility was among the inducements for fit men to enter into the Legislative service
Mr. Randolph was inflexibly fixed against inviting men into the Legislature by the prospect of being appointed to offices.
Mr. Baldwin remarked that the example of the States was not applicable. The Legislatures there are so numerous that an exclusion of their members would not leave proper men for offices. The case would be otherwise in the General Government.
Col: Mason. Instead of excluding merit, the ineligibility will keep out corruption, by excluding office-hunters.
Mr. Wilson considered the exclusion of members of the Legislature as increasing the influence of the Executive as observed by Mr Govr Morris at the same time that it would diminish, the general energy of the Government. He said that the legal disqualification for office would be odious to those who did not wish for office, but did not wish either to be marked by so degrading a distinction —
Mr Pinkney. The first Legislature will be composed of the ablest men to be found. The States will select such to put the Government into operation. Should the Report of the Committee or even the amendment be agreed to, The great offices, even those of the Judiciary Deparment which are to continue for life, must be filled whilst those most capable of filling them will be under a disqualification
On the question on Mr. King’s motion
N— H. ay. Mas. ay— Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Md. no. Va. ay N— C. ay. S— C. no. Geo— no. [Ayes — 5; noes — 5.]
The amendment being thus lost by the equal division of the States, Mr Williamson moved to insert the words “created or the emoluments whereof shall have been increased” before the word “during” in the Report of the Committee
Mr. King 2ded. the motion.
On the question
N— H— ay— Mas— ay— Ct. no. N— J. no. Pa. ay. Md. no. Va. ay. N— C. ay. S. C. no. Geo— divided. [Ayes — 5; noes — 4; divided — 1.]
The last clause rendering a Seat in the Legislature an office incompatible was agreed to nem: con:
The Report as amended agreed to is as follows.
“The members of each House shall be ineligible to any Civil office under the authority of the U. States, created, or the emoluments whereof shall have been increased during the time for which they shall respectively be elected — And no person holding any office under the U. S. shall be a member of either House during his continuance in office.”
Adjourned
The honorable Mr Brearley from the Committee of eleven informed the House that the Committee were prepared to report partially — He then read the report in his place; it was afterwards delivered in at the Secretary’s table — and was again read: and is as follows. 1
The Committee of eleven to whom sundry resolutions ca were referred on the 31st ultimo, report that in their opinion the following additions and alterations should be made to the report before the Convention — viz
The first clause of the first Sect. of the 7th article to read as follows. “The Legislature shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United States.
At the end of 2nd clause of the 1st sect. 7 art. add “and with the Indian tribes.
In the place of the 9 article 1st sect. to be inserted
“The Senate of the United States shall have power to try all impeachments; but no person shall be convicted without the concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.
after the word Excellency in the 1st sect 10 article to be inserted “He shall hold his office during the term of four years, and together with the Vice President, chosen for the same term, be elected in the following manner.
Each State shall appoint in such manner as it’s Legislature may direct, a number of Electors equal to the whole number of Senators, and Members of the House of representatives to which the State may be entitled in the legislature.
The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by ballot for two Persons, of whom one at least shall not be an inhabitant of the same State with themselves. — and they shall make a list of all the Persons voted for, and of the number of votes for each, which list they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the general Government, directed to the President of the Senate.
The President of the Senate shall in that House open all the certificates, and the votes shall be then and there counted — The Person having the greatest number of votes shall be the President, if such number be a majority of 〈the whole number〉 2 of the Electors 〈appointed〉 3 and if there be more than One, who have such Majority, and have an equal number of votes, then the Senate shall 〈immediately〉 4 choose by ballot one of them for President: but if no Person have a majority, then from the five highest on the list, the Senate shall choose by ballot the President — and in every case after the choice of the President, the Person having the greatest number of votes shall be Vice President: but if there should remain two or more, who have equal votes, the Senate shall choose from them the Vice President.
The Legislature may determine the time of chusing and assembling the Electors, and the manner of certifying and transmitting their votes.
Sect. 2. No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the U. S. at the time of the adoption of this Constitution shall be eligible to the office of President: nor shall any Person be elected to that office, who shall be under the age of 35 years, and who has not been in the whole, at least 14 years a resident within the U. S.
Sect. 3. The Vice President shall be ex officio, President of the Senate, except when they sit to try the impeachment of the President, in which case the Chief Justice shall preside, and excepting also when he shall exercise the powers and duties of President, in which case, and in case of his absence, the Senate shall chuse a President pro tempore — The Vice President when acting as President of the Senate shall not have a vote unless the House be equally divided
Sect. 4. The President by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, shall have power to make treaties: and he shall nominate and by and with the advice and consent of the Senate shall appoint Ambassadors and other public Ministers, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other officers of the U. S. whose appointments are not otherwise herein provided for. But no Treaty 〈except Treaties of Peace〉 5 shall be made without the consent of two thirds of the Members present
after the words “into the service of the U. S. in the 2 sect. 10 art. add “and may require the opinion in writing of the principal officer in each of the executive departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices.
The latter part of the 2 sect 10 art to read as follows.
He shall be removed from his office on impeachment by the House of representatives, and conviction by the Senate, for treason or bribery, and in case of his removal as aforesaid, death, absence, resignation or inability to discharge the powers or duties of his office the Vice President shall exercise those powers and duties until another President be chosen, or until the inability of the President be removed.
On the question to agree to the first clause of the report.
it passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the second clause of the report
it passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the 3rd clause of the report
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the remainder of the report
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 1; noes — 10.] 6
After some time passed in debate.
It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the remainder of the report, and that the Members take copies thereof —
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 7; noes — 3.]
It was moved and seconded to refer the following motion to the committee of eleven.
To prepare and report a plan for defraying the expences of this Convention
which passed in the affirmative
[To adjourn Ayes — 11; noes — 0.] 7
The House adjourned
New Hampshire | Massachusetts | Rhode Island | Connecticut | New York | New Jersey | Pennsylvania | Delaware | Maryland | Virginia | No Carolina | So Carolina | Georgia | Questions | ayes | noes | divided | |
[442] | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | aye | no | no | To postpone the report | 2 | 9 | |||
[443] | aye | aye | no | no | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | To postpone | 7 | 3 | ||||
[444] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | To adjourn | |||||
[End of page 14] |
Mr. Brearley from the Committee of eleven made a further partial Report as follows 8
“The Committee of Eleven to whom sundry resolutions c were referred on the 31st. of August, report that in their opinion the following additions and alterations should be made to the Report before the Convention, viz
* (1.) The first clause of sect: 1. art. 7. to read as follow — ‘The Legislature shall have power to lay and collect taxes duties imposts excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence general welfare 9 of the U. S.’
(2). At the end of the 2d. clause of sect. 1. art. 7. add ‘and with the Indian tribes’.
(3) In the place of the 9th. art: Sect. 1. to be inserted ‘The Senate of the U— S— shall have power to try all impeachments; but no person shall be convicted without the concurrence of two thirds of the members present.’ 10
(4) After the word ‘Excellency’ in sect. 1. art. 10. to be inserted. ‘He shall hold his office during the term of four years, and together with the vice-President, chosen for the same term, be elected in the following manner, viz. Each State shall appoint in such manner as its Legislature may direct, a number of electors equal to the whole number of Senators and members of the House of Representatives, to which the State may be entitled in the Legislature. The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by ballot for two persons, of whom one at least shall not be an inhabitant of the same State with themselves; and they shall make a list of all the persons voted for, and of the number of votes for each, which list they shall sign and certify and transmit sealed to the Seat of the. Genl. Government, directed to the President of the Senate — The President of the Senate shall in that House open all the certificates; and the votes shall be then there counted. The Person having the greatest number of votes shall be the President, if such number be a majority of that of the electors; and if there be more than one who have such a majority, and have an equal number of votes, then the Senate shall immediately 12 choose by ballot one of them for President: but if no person have a majority. then from the five highest on the list, the Senate shall choose by ballot the President. And in every case after the choice of the President, the person having the greatest number of votes shall be vice-president: but if there should remain two or more who have equal votes, the Senate shall choose from them the vice-President. The Legislature may determine the time of choosing and assembling the Electors, and the manner of certifying and transmitting their votes.’ 12 a
(5) ‘Sect. 2. No person except a natural born citizen or a Citizen of the U— S— at the time of the adoption of this Constitution shall be eligible to the office of President; nor shall any person be elected to that office, who shall be under the age of thirty five years, and who has not been in the whole, at least fourteen years a resident within the U— S.’
(6) ‘Sect— 3— The vice-president shall be ex officio President of the Senate, except when they sit to try the impeachment of the President, in which case the Chief Justice shall preside, and excepting also when he shall exercise the powers and duties of President, in which case in case of his absence, the Senate shall chuse a President pro tempore. — The vice President when acting as President of the Senate shall not have a vote unless the House be equally divided.’
(7) ‘Sect— 4 The President by and with the advice and Consent of the Senate, shall have power to make Treaties; and he shall nominate and by and with the advice and consent of the Senate shall appoint ambassadors, and other public Ministers, 13 Judges of the Supreme Court, and all other Officers of the U— S—, whose appointments are not otherwise herein provided for. But no Treaty 14 shall be made without the consent of two thirds of the members present.’
(8) After the words “into the service of the U S.” in sect. 2. art: 10. add ‘and may require the opinion in writing of the principal Officer in each of the Executive Departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices.’
The latter part of Sect. 2. Art: 10. to read as follows.
(9) ‘He shall be removed from his office on impeachment by the House of Representatives, and conviction by the Senate, for Treason, or bribery, and in case of his removal as aforesaid, death, absence, resignation or inability to discharge the powers or duties of his office, the vice-president shall exercise those powers and duties until another President be chosen, or until the inability of the President be removed.’
The (1st.) clause of the Report was agreed to nem. con.
The (2) clause was also agreed to nem: con:
The (3) clause was postponed in order to decide previously on the mode of electing the President —
The (4) clause was accordingly taken up.
Mr. Gorham disapproved of making the next highest after the President, the vice-President, without referring the decision to the Senate in case the next highest should have less than a majority of votes. as the regulation stands a very obscure man with very few votes may arrive at that appointment
Mr Sherman said the object of this clause of the report of the Committee was to get rid of the ineligibility, which was attached to the mode of election by the Legislature, to render the Executive independent of the Legislature. As the choice of the President was to be made out of the five highest, obscure characters were sufficiently guarded against in that case: And he had no objection to requiring the vice-President to be chosen in like manner, where the choice was not decided by a majority in the first instance
Mr. Madison was apprehensive that by requiring both the President vice President to be chosen out of the five highest candidates, the attention of the electors would be turned too much to making candidates instead of giving their votes in order to a definitive choice, Should this turn be given to the business, the election would in fact be consigned to the Senate altogether. It would have the effect at the same time, he observed, of giving the nomination of the candidates to the largest States.
Mr Govr Morris concurred in, enforced the remarks of Mr. Madison.
Mr Randolph Mr Pinkney wished for a particular explanation discussion of the reasons for changing the mode of electing the Executive.
Mr. Govr. Morris said he would give the reasons of the Committee and his own. The 1st. was the danger of intrigue faction if the appointmt. should be made by the Legislature. 2 the inconveniency of an ineligibility required by that mode in order to lessen its evils. 3 The difficulty of establishing a Court of Impeachments, other than the Senate which would not be so proper for the trial nor the other branch for the impeachment of the President, if appointed by the Legislature, 4. No body had appeared to be satisfied with an appointment by the Legislature. 5. Many were anxious even for an immediate choice by the people— 6— the indispensable necessity of making the Executive independent of the Legislature. — As the Electors would vote at the same time throughout the U. S. and at so great a distance from each other, the great evil of cabal was avoided. It would be impossible also to corrupt them. A conclusive reason for making the Senate instead of the Supreme Court the Judge of impeachments, was that the latter was to try the President after the trial of the impeachment.
Col: Mason confessed that the plan of the Committee had removed some capital objections, particularly the danger of cabal and corruption. It was liable however to this strong objection, that nineteen times in twenty the President would be chosen by the Senate, an improper body for the purpose.
Mr. Butler thought the mode not free from objections, but much more so than an election by the Legislature, where as in elective monarchies, cabal faction violence would be sure to prevail.
Mr. Pinkney stated as objections to the mode 1. that it threw the whole appointment in fact into the hands of the Senate. 2— The Electors will be strangers to the several candidates and of course unable to decide on their comparative merits. 3. It makes the Executive reeligible which will endanger the public liberty. 4. It makes the same body of men which will in fact elect the President his Judges in case of an impeachment.
Mr. Williamson had great doubts whether the advantage of reeligibility would balance the objection to such a dependence of the President on the Senate for his reappointment. He thought at least the Senate ought to be restrained to the two highest on the list
Mr. Govr. Morris said the principal advantage aimed at was that of taking away the opportunity for cabal. The President may be made if thought necessary ineligible on this as well as on any other mode of election. Other inconveniences may be no less redressed on this plan than any other.
Mr. Baldwin thought the plan not so objectionable when well considered, as at first view. The increasing intercourse among the people of the States, would render important characters less less unknown; and the Senate would consequently be less less likely to have the eventual appointment thrown into their hands.
Mr. Wilson. This subject has greatly divided the House, and will also divide people out of doors. It is in truth the most difficult of all on which we have had to decide. He had never made up an opinion on it entirely to his own satisfaction. He thought the plan on the whole a valuable improvement on the former. It gets rid of one great evil, that of cabal corruption; Continental Characters will multiply as we more more coalesce, so as to enable the electors in every part of the Union to know judge of them. It clears the way also for a discussion of the question of re-eligibility on its own merits, which the former mode of election seemed to forbid. He thought it might be better however to refer the eventual appointment to the Legislature than to the Senate, and to confine it to a smaller number than five of the Candidates. The eventual election by the Legislature wd. not open cabal anew, as it would be restrained to certain designated objects of choice, and as these must have had the previous sanction of a number of the States: and if the election be made as it ought as soon as the votes of the electors are opened it is known that no one has a majority of the whole, there can be little danger of corruption— Another reason for preferring the Legislature to the Senate in this business, was that the House of Reps. will be so often changed as to 15 be free from the influence faction to which the permanence of the Senate may subject that branch —
Mr. Randolph preferred the former mode of constituting the Executive, but if the change was to be made, he wished to know why the eventual election was referred to the Senate and not to the Legislature? He saw no necessity for this and many objections to it. He was apprehensive also that the advantage of the eventual appointment would fall into the hands of the States near the Seat of Government.
Mr Govr. Morris said the Senate was preferred because fewer could then, say to the President, you owe your appointment to us. He thought the President would not depend so much on the Senate for his re-appointment as on his general good conduct.
The further consideration of the Report was postponed that each member might take a copy of the remainder of it.
The following motion was referred to the Committee of Eleven — to wit, — “To prepare report a plan for defraying the expences of the Convention”
* Mr. Pinkney moved a clause declaring “that each House should be judge of the privilege of its own members. 16 Mr Govr. Morris 2ded. the motion
Mr. Randolph Mr. Madison expressed doubts as to the propriety of giving such a power, wished for a postponement.
Mr Govr. Morris thought it so plain a case that no postponement could be necessary.
Mr. Wilson thought the power involved, and the express insertion of it needless. It might beget doubts as to the power of other public bodies, as Courts c. Every Court is the judge of its own privileges.
Mr Madison distinguished between the power of Judging of privileges previously duly established, and the effect of the motion which would give a discretion to each House as to the extent of its own privileges. He suggested that it would be better to make provision for ascertaining by law, the privileges of each House, than to allow each House to decide for itself. He suggested also the necessity of considering what privileges ought to be allowed to the Executive.
Adjourned 17
Sepr. 3. and 4 Employed chiefly by the committee.
Agreed on report of the com. that the 1 clause of the 1 sect. of the 7 art. read vz.
“The legislature shall have power to lay and collect taxes duties imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the U. S.”
Also to add at the end of the 2 clause of the 1 sect of the 7 art. “and with the Indian tribes.”
+ Took up in the report “in the place of the 9 art. 1 sec.—“The senate of the U. S. shall have power to try all impeachments but no person shall be convicted without the concurrence of ⅔ of the members present. postponed.
The committee report in part as follows 18 . . .
No provision in the above for a new election in case of the death or removal of the President.
Upon looking over the constitution it does not appear that the national legislature can erect light houses or clean out or preserve the navigation of harbours — This expence ought to be borne by commerce — of course by the general treasury into which all the revenue of commerce must come —
Is it proper to declare all the navigable waters or rivers and within the U. S. common high ways? Perhaps a power to restrain any State from demanding tribute from citizens of another State in such cases is comprehended in the power to regulate trade between State and State.
This to be further considered. A motion to be made on the light house etc, to-morrow.
The honorable Mr Brearley from the Committee of eleven informed the House that the Committee were prepared to report farther —.He then read the report in his place — and, the same being delivered in at the Secretary’s table, was again read, and is as follows.
To add to the clause “To declare war” the words “and grant letters of marque and reprisal” agreed 1 To add to the clause “To raise and support armies” the words “But no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years” agreed 1 Instead of the twelfth section of the 6th article say
all Bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of representatives and shall be subject to alterations and amendments by the Senate: No money shall be drawn from the Treasury but in consequence of appropriations made by law. postponed 1
Immediately before the last clause of the first section of the seventh article
To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever over such district (not exceeding ten miles square) as may by cession of particular States and the acceptance of the Legislature become the seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all Places purchased for the erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, Dock Yards and other needful buildings. agd 1
“To promote the progress of science and useful arts by securing for limited times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries. agreed 1 On the question to agree to the first clause of the report
it passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the second clause of the report
it passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the third clause of the report
which passed in the affirmative. [Ayes—9; noes — 2.] 1 a
It was moved and seconded to insert the following words after the word “purchased” in the fourth clause of the report “by the consent of the Legislature of the State”
which passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the fourth clause of the report as amended
it passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the fifth clause of the report
it passed in the affirmative.
The following resolution and order - - - - reported from the Committee of eleven were read.
Resolved
“That the United States in Congress be requested to allow and cause to be paid to the Secretary and other officers of this Convention such sums in proportion to their respective times of service as are allowed to the Secretary and similar Officers of Congress”
Ordered That the Secretary make out and transmit to the Treasury Office of the United States an account for the said services, and for the incidental expences of this Convention.
Separate questions being taken on the foregoing resolve and Order
They passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to take up the remainder of the report from the Committee of eleven entered on the Journal of the 4. instant It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the report in order to take up the following.
“He shall be elected by joint ballot by the Legislature, to which election a majority of the votes of the Members present shall be required: He shall hold his office during the term of seven years: but shall not be elected a second “time” —
On the question to postpone
it passed in the negative. [Ayes — 2; noes — 8; divided — 1.]
It was moved and seconded to strike out the words
“if such number be a majority of that of the Electors”
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 1; noes — 10.]
It was moved and seconded to strike out the word “Senate” and to insert the word “Legislature”
which passed in the Negative [Ayes — 3; noes — 7; divided — 1.]
It was moved and seconded to strike out the words “such majority” and to insert the words “one third.”
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 2; noes — 9.]
[To strike out the word “five” to insert “three” Ayes — 2; noes — 9.] 2
It was moved and seconded to strike out the word “five” and to insert the word “thirteen”
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 2; noes — 9.]
It was moved and seconded to add after the word “electors” the words “who shall have balloted”
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]
It was moved and seconded to add after the words “if such number be a majority of the whole number of the Electors” the word “appointed”
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.]
It was moved and seconded to insert after the words “The Legislature may determine the time of chusing and assembling the Electors” the words “and of their giving their votes”
which passed in the affirmative
The House adjourned
[page 15] | |||||||||||||||||
New Hampshire | Massachusetts | Rhode Island | Connecticut | New York | New Jersey | Pennsylvania | Delaware | Maryland | Virginia | No Carolina | So Carolina | Georgia | Questions | ayes | noes | divided | |
[445] | dd | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | aye | aye | no | To postpone the report for electg the Presidt by electors, to take up the report for electg him by the Legislature | 2 | 8 | 1 | ||
[446] | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | aye | no | no | To strike out the words if such number ca | 1 | 10 | |||
[447] | dd | no | no | no | aye | no | no | aye | no | aye | no | To strike out the word “Senate” to insert “Legislature” | 3 | 7 | 1 | ||
[448] | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | aye | aye | no | no | To strike out the words “such majority” to insert “One third” | 2 | 9 | |||
[449] | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | aye | aye | no | no | To strike out the word “five” to insert “three” | 2 | 9 | |||
[450] | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | aye | aye | no | To strike out “five” to insert “thirteen” | 2 | 9 | |||
[451] | no | no | no | no | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | no | no | To add the words “who shall have ballotted” | 4 | 7 | |||
[452] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | no | aye | aye | To add the word “appointed” after the words “whole number of Electors” | 9 | 2 |
Mr. Brearley from the Committee of Eleven made a farther report as follows,
(1) To add to the clause “to declare war” the words “and grant letters of marque and reprisal”
(2) To add to the clause “to raise and support armies” the words “but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years”
(3) Instead of sect: 12. art. 6. say — “All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives, and shall be subject to alterations and amendments by the Senate: No money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in consequence of appropriations made by law.”
(4) Immediately before the last clause of Sect. 1. art. 7 — insert “To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever over such district (not exceeding ten miles square) as may by Cession of particular States and the acceptance of the Legislature become the seat of the Government of the U— S— 3 and to exercise like authority over all places purchased for the erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, Dock-Yards, and other needful buildings”
(5) “To promote the progress of Science and useful arts by securing for limited times to authors inventors, the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries”
This report being taken up. — The (1) clause was agreed to nem. con:
To the (2) clause Mr. Gerry objected that it admitted of appropriations to an army. for two years instead of one, for which he could not conceive a reason— that it implied there was to be a standing army which he inveighed against as dangerous to liberty, as unnecessary even for so great an extent of Country as this. and if necessary, some restriction on the number duration ought to be provided: Nor was this a proper time for such an innovation. The people would not bear it.
Mr Sherman remarked that the appropriations were permitted only, not required to be for two years. As the Legislature is to be biennally elected, it would be inconvenient to require appropriations to be for one year, as there might be no Session within the time necessary to renew them. He should himself he said like a reasonable restriction on the number and continuance of an army in time of peace.
The clause (2). was agreed to nem: con:
The (3)clause, Mr. Govr. Morris moved to postpone — It had been agreed to in the Committee on the ground of compromise, and he should feel himself at liberty to dissent to it; if on the whole he should not be satisfied with certain other parts to be settled. — Mr. Pinkney 2ded. the motion
Mr. Sherman was for giving immediate ease to those who looked on this clause as of great moment, and for trusting to their concurrence in other proper measures.
On the question for postponing
N— H— ay— Mas— no. Ct. ay. N— J— ay— Pa. ay— Del. ay. Md ay— Va. no. N— C— ay— S. C ay— Geo ay. [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.]
So much of the (4) clause as related to the seat of Government was agreed to nem: con:
On the residue, to wit, “to exercise like authority over all places purchased for forts c.
Mr Gerry contended that this power might be made use of to enslave any particular State by buying up its territory, and that the strongholds proposed would be a means of awing the State into an undue obedience to the Genl. Government —
Mr. King thought himself the provision unnecessary, the power being already involved: but would move to insert after the word “purchased” the words “by the consent of the Legislature of the State” This would certainly make the power safe.
Mr. Govr Morris 2ded. the motion, which was agreed to nem: con: as was then the residue of the clause as amended.
The (5) clause was agreed to nem: con:
The following resolution order being reported from the Committee of eleven, to wit,
“Resolved that the U— S— in Congress be requested to allow and cause to be paid to the Secretary and other officers of this Convention such sums in proportion to their respective times of service, as are allowed to the Secretary similar officers of Congress.”
“Ordered that the Secretary make out transmit to the Treasury office of the U. S. an account for the said Services, for the incidental expenses of this convention” 4
The resolution order were separately agreed to nem: con:
Mr. Gerry gave notice that he should move to reconsider articles XIX. XX. XXI. XXII.
Mr. Williamson gave like notice as to the Article fixing the number of Representatives, which he thought too small. He wished also to allow Rho: Island more than one, as due to her probable number of people, and as proper to stifle any pretext arising from her absence on the occasion.
The Report made yesterday as to the appointment of the Executive being then taken up. Mr. Pinkney renewed his opposition to the mode, arguing 1. that the electors will not have sufficient knowledge of the fittest men, will be swayed by an attachment to the eminent men of their respective States — Hence 2dly the dispersion of the votes would leave the appointment with the Senate, and as the President’s reappointment will thus depend on the Senate he will be the mere creature of that body. 3. He will combine with the Senate agst the House of Representatives. 4. This change in the mode of election was meant to get rid of the ineligibility of the President a second time, whereby he will become fixed for life under the auspices of the Senate
Mr. Gerry did not object to this plan of constituting the Executive in itself, but should be governed in his final vote by the powers that may be given to the President.
Mr. Rutlidge was much opposed to the plan reported by the Committee. It would throw the whole power into the Senate. He was also against a re-eligibility. He moved to postpone the Report under consideration take up the original plan of appointment by the Legislature. to wit. “He shall be elected by joint ballot by the Legislature to which election a majority of the votes of the members present shall be required: He shall hold his office during the term of Seven years; but shall not be elected a second time”
On this motion to postpone
N— H— divd. Mas. no— Ct no— N— J. no. Pa. no— Del— no. Md. no— Va. no. N. C. ay— S. C. ay— Geo. no. [Ayes — 2; noes — 8; divided — 1.]
Col. Mason admitted that there were objections to an appointment by the Legislature as originally planned. He had not yet made up his mind; but would state his objections to the mode proposed by the Committee. 1. It puts the appointment in fact into the hands of the Senate, as it will rarely happen that a majority of the whole votes will fall on any one candidate: and as the Existing President will always be one of the 5 highest, his re-appointment will of course depend on the Senate. 2. Considering the powers of the President those of the Senate, if a coalition should be established between these two branches, they will be able to subvert the Constitution. — The great objection with him would be removed by depriving the Senate of the eventual election. He accordingly moved to strike out the words “if such number be a majority of that of the electors”
Mr. Williamson 2ded. the motion. He could not agree to the clause without some such modification. He preferred making the highest tho’ not having a majority of the votes, President, to a reference of the matter to the Senate. Referring the appointment to the Senate lays a certain foundation for corruption aristocracy.
Mr. Govr Morris thought the point of less consequence than it was supposed on both sides. It is probable that a majority of the votes will fall on the same man, As each elector is to give two votes, more than ¼ will give a majority. Besides as one vote is to be given to a man out of the State, and as this vote will not be thrown away, ½ the votes will fall on characters eminent generally known. Again if the President shall have given satisfaction, the votes will turn on him of course, and a majority of them will reappoint him, without resort to the Senate: If he should be disliked, all disliking him, would take care to unite their votes so as to ensure his being supplanted.
Col: Mason those who think there is no danger of there not being a majority for the same person in the first instance, ought to give up the point to those who think otherwise.
Mr Sherman reminded the opponents of the new mode proposed that if the Small States had the advantage in the Senate’s deciding among the five highest candidates, the Large States would have in fact the nomination of these candidates
On 5 the motion of Col: Mason
N. H. no— Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. ay. * Va. no— N. C. ay. S— C. no. Geo. no [Ayes — 2; noes — 9.]
Mr. Wilson moved to strike out “Senate” and insert the word “Legislature”
Mr Madison considered it as a primary object to render an eventual resort to any part of the Legislature improbable. He was apprehensive that the proposed alteration would turn the attention of the large States too much to the appointment of candidates, instead of aiming at an effectual appointment of the officer, as the large States would predominate in the Legislature which would have the final choice out of the Candidates. Whereas if the Senate in which the small States predominate should have the final choice, the concerted effort of the large States would be to make the appointment in the first instance conclusive.
Mr Randolph. We have in some revolutions of this plan made a bold stroke for Monarchy. We are now doing the same for an aristocracy. He dwelt on the tendency of such an influence in the Senate over the election of the President in addition to its other powers, to convert that body into a real dangerous Aristocracy —
Mr Dickinson was in favor of giving the eventual election to the Legislature, instead of the Senate — It was too much influence to be superadded to that body —
On the question moved by Mr Wilson
N. H— divd. Mas. no— Ct no— N— J— no. Pa. ay. Del— no. Md. no. Va. ay— N— C. no— S. C. ay. Geo. no. [Ayes — 3; noes — 7; divided — 1.]
Mr Madison Mr. Williamson moved to strike out the word “majority” and insert “one third” so that the eventual power might not be exercised if less than a majority, but not less than ⅓ of the Electors should vote for the same person—
Mr. Gerry objected that this would put it in the power of three or four States to put in whom they pleased.
Mr. Williamson. There are seven States which do not contain one third of the people — If the Senate are to appoint, less than one sixth of the people will have the power —
On the question
N. H— no. Mas. no— Ct no— N. J— no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no— Va. ay. N— C. ay. S. C no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 2; noes — 9.]
Mr Gerry suggested that the eventual election should be made by six Senators and seven Representatives chosen by joint ballot of both Houses.
Mr King observed that the influence of the Small States in the Senate was somewhat balanced by the influence of the large States in bringing forward the candidates, * and also by the Concurrence of the small States in the Committee in the clause vesting the exclusive origination of Money bills in the House of Representatives.
Col: Mason moved to strike out the word “five” and insert the word “three” as the highest candidates for the Senate to choose out of —
Mr. Gerry 2ded. the motion
Mr. Sherman would sooner give up the plan. He would prefer seven or thirteen.
On the question moved by Col Mason and Mr Gerry
N. H. no— Mas. no— Ct. no. N— J. no. Pa no. 〈Delaware〉 Md. 〈no〉 6 Va ay— N— C— ay— S. C. no— Geo— no. [Ayes — 2; noes — 8.]
Mr Spaight and Mr. Rutlidge moved to strike out “five” and insert “thirteen” — to which all the States disagreed — except N— C. S— C—
Mr Madison Mr. Williamson moved to insert after “Electors” the words “who shall have balloted” so that the non voting electors not being counted might not increase the number necessary as a majority of the whole — to decide the choice without the agency of the Senate —
On this question
N. H— no. Mas— no. Ct. 〈no〉. 6 N. J— no. Pa ay. Del. no. Md. ay. Va ay— N— C. ay. S— C— no. Geo. no [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]
Mr. Dickinson moved, in order to remove ambiguity from the intention of the clause as explained by the vote, to add, after the words “if such number be a majority of the whole “number of the Electors” the word “appointed”
On this motion
N. H. ay. Mas— ay— 〈Con: ay〉 7 N— J— ay— Pa ay. 〈Delaware〉 Md. ay— Va. no. N. C. no. S— C. ay— Geo. ay. [Ayes — 8; noes — 2.]
Col: Mason. As the mode of appointment is now regulated, he could not forbear expressing his opinion that it is utterly inadmissible. He would prefer the Government of Prussia to one which will put all power into the hands of seven or eight men, and fix an Aristocracy worse than absolute monarchy.
The words “and of their giving their votes” being inserted on motion for that purpose, after the words “The Legislature may determine the time of chusing and assembling the Electors”
The House adjourned.
The greatest part of the day spent in desultory conversation on that part of the report respecting the mode of chusing the President — adjourned without coming to a conclusion —
It was moved and seconded to insert the following words after the words “may be entitled in the Legislature” in the 5. clause of the report entered on the Journal of the 4th instant.
“But no Person shall be appointed an Elector who is a Member of the Legislature of the United States or who holds any office of profit or trust under the United States”
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to insert the word “seven” instead of “four” in the fourth clause of the report.
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.] 1
It was moved and seconded to insert the word “six” instead of “four”
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 2; noes — 9.] 2
[To agree to the word “four” Ayes — 10; noes — 1.
To agree to the clause respectg Presidt V. Presidt Ayes — 10; noes — 1.
To agree to the appointment of Electors. Ayes — 9; noes — 2.] 3
It was moved and seconded to insert the words “under the seal of the State” after the word “transmit” in the sixth clause of the report
which passed in the negative.
[To agree to Ayes — 10; noes — 1.
The person having the greatest number of votes shall be the Presidt Ayes — 8; noes — 2; divided — 1
Provided that number be a majority of the
Ayes — 8; noes — 3.] 4
It was moved and seconded to insert the words “and who shall have given their votes” after the word “appointed” in the 7 clause of the report.
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 5; noes — 6.] 5
[ Ayes — 10; noes — 1.] 6
It was moved and seconded to insert the words “in presence of the Senate and House of representatives” after the word “counted”
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to insert the word “immediately” before the word “choose”
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.] 7
[and that not less than ⅔ of the whole number of Senators be present — (In presence of the S Ho of representatives)
Ayes — 6; noes — 4.] 8
It was moved and seconded to insert the words “of the Electors” after the word “votes”
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 11; noes — 0.] 9
It was moved and seconded to agree to the following clause
“That the Electors meet at the seat of the general Government”
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 1; noes — 10.] 10
It was moved and seconded to agree to the following clause “But The election shall be on the same day throughout the United States” after the words “transmitting their votes”
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 8; noes — 3.] 11
It was moved and seconded to strike out the words “The Senate shall immediately choose by ballot” ca and to insert the words “The House of representatives shall immediately choose by ballot one of them for President, the Members from each State having one vote”
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 10; noes — 1.] 12
[Ho of representatives to elect Ayes — 8; noes — 3.] 13
It was moved and seconded to agree to the following amendment
“But a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a Member or Members from two thirds of the States”
which passed in the affirmative [“Unanimous”] 14
On the question to agree to the following amendment
“and also of a Majority of the whole number of the House of representatives”
it passed in the negative [Ayes — 5; noes — 6.] 15
[and in every case after the choice of the Presidt the Person having the greatest number of votes Ayes — 10; noes — 1.] 16
The several amendments being agreed to, on separate questions,
The first sect. of the report is as follows.
“He shall hold his office during the term of four years, and together with the Vice President, chosen for the same term, be elected in the following manner.