It was then moved to insert after “two witnesses” the words “to the same overt act”.
Docr Franklin wished this amendment to take place — prosecutions for treason were generally virulent; and perjury too easily made use of against innocence
Mr. Wilson. much may be said on both sides. Treason may sometimes be practised in such a manner, as to render proof extremely difficult — as in a traitorous correspondence with an Enemy.
On the question — as to same overt act
N— H— ay— Mas— ay— Ct. ay. N. J. no— Pa. ay— Del— ay— Md ay. Va no— N. C. no— S. C. ay— Geo— ay- [Ayes — 8; noes — 3.]
Mr King moved to insert before the word “power” the word “sole”, giving the U. States the exclusive right to declare the punishment of Treason.
Mr Broom 2ds. the motion-
Mr Wilson in cases of a general nature, treason can only be agst the U- States. and in such they shd have the sole right to declare the punishment — yet in many cases it may be otherwise. The subject was however intricate and he distrusted his present judgment on it.
Mr King this amendment results from the vote defining treason generally by striking out agst. the U. States; which excludes any treason agst particular States. These may however punish offences as high misdemesnors.
On inserting the word “sole”. 〈It passed in the negative〉
N- H. ay- Mas- ay. Ct no- N. J- no- Pa ay. Del. ay. Md no- Va- no- N- C- no- S. C. ay- Geo- no.— [Ayes — 5; noes — 6.]
Mr. Wilson. the clause is ambiguous now. “Sole” ought either to have been inserted — or “against the U- S.” to be reinstated.
Mr King no line can be drawn between levying war and adhering to enemy — agst the U. States and agst an individual States — Treason agst the latter must be so agst the former.
Mr Sherman, resistance agst. the laws of the U- States as distinguished from resistance agst the laws of a particular State, forms the line-
Mr. Elseworth- the U. S. are sovereign on one side of the line dividing the jurisdictions — the States on the other — each ought to have power to defend their respective Sovereignties.
Mr. Dickenson, war or insurrection agst a member of the Union must be so agst the whole body; but the Constitution should be made clear on this point.
The clause was reconsidered nem. con — then, Mr. Wilson Mr. Elseworth moved to reinstate “agst the U. S.”. after “Treason” — on which question
N- H- no- Mas. no. Ct. ay- N- J- ay- Pa no- Del. no- Md ay. Va. ay- N- C. ay- S- C- no- Geo. ay— [Ayes — 6; noes — 5.]
MrM — 〈adison〉 was not satisfied with the footing on which the clause now stood. As treason agst the U- States involves Treason agst. particular States, and vice versa, the same act may be twice tried punished by the different authorities — Mr Govr Morris viewed the matter in the same lights —
〈It was moved 2ded to amend the Sentence to read — “Treason agst. the U. S. shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies” which was agreed to.〉 10
Col- Mason moved to insert the words “giving 〈them〉 aid comfort”. as restrictive of “adhering to their Enemies c”- the latter he thought would be otherwise too indefinite — This motion was agreed to 〈Cont: Del: Georgia only being in the Negative.〉 10
Mr L. Martin — moved to insert after conviction c — “or on confession in open court” — and on the question, (the negative States thinking the words superfluous) 〈it was agreed to〉 N. H: ay- Mas- no- Ct. ay. N- J. ay- Pa. ay. Del. ay- Md ay- Va ay. N- C- divd S- C- no. Geo- no.
[Ayes — 7; noes — 3; divided — 1.]
Art: VII. Sect— 2. as amended was then agreed to nem—con. 11
Sect— 3— taken up. 12 “white other” struck out nem con. as superfluous.
Mr Elseworth moved to required the first census to be taken within “three” instead of “six” years from the first meeting of the Legislature — and on question
N— H— ay. Mas— ay Ct ay— N J— ay— Pa ay— Del. ay. Md ay Va ay— N— C— ay— S— C. no— Geo— no. [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.]
Mr King asked what was the precise meaning of direct taxation? No one answd.
Mr. Gerry moved 〈to add to the 3d. Sect. art. VII, the following clause. “That from the first meeting of the Legislature of the U. S. until a Census shall be taken all monies for supplying the public Treasury by direct taxation shall be raised from the several States according to the number of their Representatives respectively in the first branch”〉 13
Mr. Langdon. This would bear unreasonably hard on N. H. and he must be agst it.
Mr. Carrol. opposed it. The number of Reps. did not admit of a proportion exact enough for a rule of taxation —
〈Before any question the House〉 14
Adjourned. 15
The following one agreed to.
Sect. 2. Amended to read. Treason against the U. S. shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies giving them aid and comfort. The legislature shall have power to declare the punishment of treason. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on confession in open court, or the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act.
Mr. Mason moved to add to the 1 sect of the VII article.
To make sumptuary laws.
Governeur Morris. sump. laws were calculated to continue great landed estates for ever in the same families — If men had no temptation to dispose of their money they would not sell their estates.
Negatived.
Amended section 3 by striking out the words in the second line white and other, and the word six in the 5 line and substituting the word three — but adjourned without a question on the section.
The honorable Mr Livingston, from the Committee of eleven to whom were referred
a proposition respecting the debts of the several States, entered on the Journal of the 18 instant and a proposition respecting the militia
entered on the Journal of the 18 instant informed the House that the Committee were prepared to report — and had directed him to submit the same to the consideration of the House.
The report was then delivered in at the Secretary’s-table, and, being read throughout, is as follows.
“The Legislature of the United-States shall have power to fulfil the engagements which have been entered into by Congress, and to discharge as well the debts of the United States, as the debts incurred by the several States during the late war, for the common defence and general welfare.”
“To make laws for organizing, arming, and disciplining the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the appointment of the Officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by the United States”
It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the above report
which passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the 3rd sect. of the 7 article as amended
it passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 10; noes — 1.]
It was moved and seconded to add the following clause to the 3rd sect. of the 7 article
“And all accounts of supplies furnished, services performed, and monies advanced by the several States, to the United States; or by the United States to the several States shall be adjusted by the same rule.”
The last motion being withdrawn,
It was moved and seconded to add the following clause to the 3rd section of the 7th article.
“By this rule the several quotas of the States shall be determined in settling the expences of the late war”
It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the last motion
which passed in the affirmative.
It was moved and seconded to add the following clause to the 3rd sect. of the 7 article
That from the first meeting of the Legislature of the United States until a Census shall be taken, all monies for supplying the public Treasury, by direct taxation, shall be raised from the several States according to the number of their representatives respectively in the first Branch.
It was moved and seconded to annex the following amendment to the last motion.
“subject to a final liquidation by the foregoing rule when a Census shall have been taken”
On the question to agree to the amendment
it passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the Proposition and amendment it passed in the negative. [Ayes — 2; noes — 8; divided — 1.] 1
On the question to take up the amendment offered to the 12 sect of the 6 article, entered on the Journal of the 15th instant, and then postponed
it passed in the negative [Ayes — 5; noes — 6.]
It was moved and seconded to add the following clause to the 3rd sect. 7 article
“and whenever the Legislature of the United States shall find it necessary that revenue should be raised by direct taxation, having apportioned the same, according to the above rule, on the several States, requisitions shall be made of the respective States to pay into the Continental Treasury their respective quotas within a time in the said requisition specified, and in case of any of the States failing to comply with such requisitions, then and then only to devise and pass acts directing the mode and authorising the collection of the same.”
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 1; noes — 7; divided — 1.] 2
It was moved and seconded to insert the following clause after the word “duty” in the first line 4 sect. 7 article
“for the purpose of revenue”
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]
It was moved and seconded to amend the first clause of the 4 sect. 7 article by inserting the following words
“unless by consent of two thirds of the legislature”
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 5; noes — 6.]
On the question to agree to the first clause of the 4 section of the 7 article, as reported,
it passed in the affirmative. [Ayes — 7; noes — 4.]
It was moved and seconded to insert the word “free” before the word “persons” in the 4 sect. of the 7 article.
Before the question was taken on the last motion
The House adjourned
New Hampshire | Massachusetts | Rhode Island | Connecticut | New York | New Jersey | Pennsylvania | Delaware | Maryland | Virginia | No Carolina | So Carolina | Georgia | Questions | ayes | noes | divided | |
[330] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | To agree to the 3 sect. 7 article as amended | 10 | 1 | |||
[331] | no | aye | no | no | no | no | no | no | dd | aye | no | To agree to the Proposition made by Mr Gerry until a Census be taken ca | 2 | 8 | 1 | ||
[332] | aye | no | aye | no | no | no | aye | aye | aye | no | no | To take up the amendmt offered to ye 12 sect. 4 art. entered on the Journal of the 15. august | 5 | 6 | |||
[333] | no | aye | no | no | dd | no | no | no | no | To agree to Mr. Martin’s proposition respecting direct taxation | 1 | 7 | 1 | ||||
[334] | no | no | no | aye | aye | aye | no | no | no | no | no | To agree “to the words” for the purpose of revenue” 1st line 4 sect. 7 article | 3 | 8 | |||
[335] | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | no | no | no | no | no | “unless by two-thirds of the Legislature” 1 line-4 sect. 7 article | 5 | 6 | |||
[336] | no | aye | aye | no | no | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | To agree to ye 1st clause — 4 sect. 7 article | 7 | 4 |
〈Governour Livingston, from the Committee of Eleven to whom was referred the propositions respecting the debts of the several States, and also the Militia, entered on the 18th. inst: delivered the following report: 3
“The Legislature of the U. S. shall have power to fulfil the engagements which have been entered into by Congress, and to discharge as well the debts of the U- S: as the debts incurred by the several States during the late war, for the common defence and general welfare” 4
“To make laws for organizing arming and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the U— S reserving to the States respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by the U. States”〉
Mr. Gerry considered giving the power only, without adopting the obligation, as destroying the security now enjoyed by the public creditors of the U— States. He enlarged on the merit of this class of citizens, and the solemn faith which had been pledged under the existing Confederation. If their situation should be changed as here proposed great opposition would be excited agst. the plan — He urged also that as the States had made different degrees of exertion to sink their respective debts, those who had done most would be alarmed, if they were now to be saddled with a share of the debts of States which had done least.
Mr. Sherman. It means neither more nor less than the confederation as it relates to this subject.
Mr Elseworth moved that the Report delivered in by Govr. Livingston should lie on the table. Agreed to nem. con. 5
Art: VII. sect. 3. resumed. 6 — Mr. Dickenson moved to postpone this in order to reconsider Art: IV. sect. 4. and to limit the number of representatives to be allowed to the large States. Unless this were done the small States would be reduced to entire insignificancy, and encouragement given to the importation of slaves.
Mr. Sherman would agree to such a reconsideration, but did not see the necessity of postponing the section before the House. — Mr. Dickenson withdrew his motion.
Art: VII. sect. 3. then agreed to 〈10 ays. Delaware alone being no.〉 7
Mr. Sherman moved 〈to add to sect 3, the following clause “and all accounts of supplies furnished, services performed, and monies advanced by the several States to the U— States, or by the U. S. to the several States shall be adjusted by the same rule.”〉 8
Mr. Governr. Morris 2ds. the motion.
Mr. Ghorum, thought it wrong to insert this in the Constitution. The Legislature will no doubt do what is right. The present Congress have such a power and are now exercising it.
Mr Sherman unless some rule be expressly given none will exist under the new system.
Mr. Elseworth. 〈Though〉 The contracts of Congress will be binding, there will be no rule for executing them on the States; — and one ought to be provided.
Mr Sherman withdrew his motion to make way for one of Mr Williamson to add to sect- 3. “By this rule the 〈several〉 quotas of the States 〈shall be determined in〉 Settling the expences of the late war”- 9
Mr. Carrol brought into view the difficulty that might arise on this subject from the establishment of the Constitution as intended without the Unanimous consent of the States
Mr Williamson’s motion was postponed nem. con.
Art: VI sect. 12. 10 which had been postponed Aug: 15. was now called for by Col. Mason. who wished to know how the proposed amendment as to money bills would be decided, before he agreed to any further points.
Mr. Gerry’s motion of yesterday that previous to a census, direct taxation be proportioned on the States according to the number of Representatives, was taken up- He observed that the principal acts of Government would probably take place within that period, and it was but reasonable that the States should pay in proportion to their share in them.
Mr. Elseworth thought such a rule unjust- there was a great difference between the number of Represents. and the number of inhabitants as a rule in this case. Even if the former were proportioned as nearly as possible to the latter, it would be a very inaccurate rule- A State might have one Representative only, that had inhabitants enough for 1½ or more, if fractions could be applied — c —. He proposed to amend the motion by adding 〈the words “subject to a final liquidation by the foregoing rule when a census shall have been taken.”〉 11
Mr. M〈adison.〉 The last appointment of Congs., on which the number of Representatives was founded, was conjectural and meant only as a temporary rule till a Census should be established.
Mr. Read. The requisitions of Congs. had been accommodated to the impoverishments produced by the war; and to other local and temporary circumstances —
Mr. Williamson opposed Mr Gerry’s motion
Mr Langdon was not here when N. H. was allowed three members. If it was more than her share; he did not wish for them.
Mr. Butler contended warmly for Mr Gerry’s motion as founded in reason and equity.
Mr. Elseworth’s proviso to Mr. Gerry’s motion was agreed to nem con.
Mr. King thought the power of taxation given to the Legislature rendered the motion of Mr Gerry altogether unnecessary.
On Mr Gerry’s motion as amended
N- H- no Mas- ay. Ct no N- J- no. Pa. no- Del. no- Md no- Va no- N- Ci- divd. S- C. ay. Geo. no- [Ayes — 2; noes — 8; divided — 1.]
On a question Shall art: VI sect. 12 with the amendment to it proposed entered on the 15 instant, 12 as called for by Col Mason be now taken up? 〈it passed in the Negative.〉
N. H. ay- Mas- no- Ct ay- N- J- no- Pa no- Del- no- Md ay. Va ay. N- C- ay- S- C- no- Geo. no- [Ayes — 5; noes — 6.]
Mr L. Martin. The power of taxation is most likely to be criticised by the public. Direct taxation should not be used but in cases of absolute necessity; and then the States will be best Judges of the mode. He therefore moved 〈the following addition to sect: 3. Art: VII “And whenever the Legislature of the U: S: shall find it necessary that revenue should be raised by direct taxation, having apportioned the same, according to the above rule on the several States, — requisitions shall be made of the respective States to pay into the Continental Treasury their respective quotas within a time in the said requisitions specified; and in case of any of the States failing to comply with such requisitions, then and then only to devise and pass acts directing the mode, and authorizing the collection of the same”〉 13
Mr McHenry 2ded. the motion — there was no debate, and on the question
N— H— no— Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pena. no. Del. no. Md. divd. (Jenifer Carrol no). Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 1; noes — 8; divided — 1.] 14
Art. VII. sect. 4. 15 — Mr. Langdon. by this section the States are left at liberty to tax exports. N. H. therefore with other non-exporting States, will be subject to be taxed by the States exporting its produce. This could not be admitted. It seems to be feared that the Northern States will oppress the trade of the Southn. This may be guarded agst by requiring the concurrence of ⅔ or ¾ of the legislature in such cases.
Mr Elseworth— It is best as it stands— The power of regulating trade between the States will protect them agst each other — Should this not be the case, the attempts of one to tax the produce of another passing through its hands, will force a direct exportation and defeat themselves — There are solid reasons agst. Congs taxing exports. 1. it will discourage industry, as taxes on imports discourage luxury. 2. The produce of different States is such as to prevent uniformity in such taxes. there are indeed but a few articles that could be taxed at all; as Tobo. rice indigo, and a tax on these alone would be partial unjust. 3. The taxing of exports would engender incurable jealousies.
Mr Williamson. Tho’ N— C. has been taxed by Virga by a duty on 12,000 Hhs of her Tobo. exported thro’ Virga yet he would never agree to this power. Should it take take place, it would destroy the last hope of an adoption of the plan.
Mr. Govr Morris. These local considerations ought not to impede the general interest. There is great weight in the argument, that the exporting States will tax the produce of their uncommercial neighbours. The power of regulating the trade between Pa N. Jersey will never prevent the former from taxing the latter. Nor will such a tax force a direct exportation from N— Jersey— The advantages possessed by a large trading City, outweigh the disadvantage of a moderate duty; and will retain the trade in that channel— If no tax can be laid on exports, an embargo cannot be laid, though in time of war such a measure may be of critical importance—Tobacco, lumber, and live-stock are three objects belonging to different States, of which great advantage might be maed by a power to tax exports — To these may be added Ginseng and Masts for Ships by which a tax might be thrown on other nations. The idea of supplying the West Indies with lumber from Nova Scotia, is one of the many follies of lord Sheffield’s pamphlets. The State of the Country also, will change, and render duties on exports, as skins, beaver other peculiar raw materials, politic in the view of encouraging American Manufactures.
Mr. Butler was strenuously opposed to a power over exports; as unjust and alarming to the staple States.
Mr. Langdon suggested a prohibition on the States from taxing the produce of other States exported from their harbours.
Mr. Dickenson. The power of taxing exports may be inconvenient at present; but it must be of dangerous consequence to prohibit it with respect to all articles and for ever. He thought it would be better to except particular articles from the power.
Mr. Sherman— It is best to prohibit the National legislature in all cases. The States will never give up all power over trade. An enumeration of particular articles would be difficult invidious and improper.
Mr M〈adison〉 As we ought to be governed by national and permanent views, it is a sufficient argument for giving ye power over exports that a tax, tho’ it may not be expedient at present, may be so hereafter. 16 A proper regulation of exports may probably will be necessary hereafter, and for the same purposes as the regulation of — imports; viz, for revenue — domestic manufactures 17 — and procuring equitable regulations from other nations. An Embargo may be of absolute necessity, and can alone be effectuated by the Genl. authority. The regulation of trade between State and State can not effect more than indirectly to hinder a State from taxing its own exports; by authorizing its Citizens to carry their commodities freely into a neighbouring State which might decline taxing exports in order to draw into its channel the trade of its neighbours — As to the fear of disproportionate burdens on the more exporting States, it might be remarked that it was agreed on all hands that the revenue wd. principally be drawn from trade, and as only a given revenue would be needed, it was not material whether all should be drawn wholly from imports — or half from those, and half from exports — The imports and exports must be pretty nearly equal in every State — and relatively the same among the different States.
Mr Elseworth did not conceive an embargo by the Congress interdicted by this section.
Mr. McHenry conceived that power to be included in the power of war.
Mr. Wilson. Pennsylvania exports the produce of Maryd. N. Jersey, Delaware will by by when the River Delaware is opened, export for N— York. In favoring the general power over exports therefore, he opposed the particular interest of his State. He remarked that the power had been attacked by reasoning which could only have held good in case the Genl Govt. had been compelled, instead of authorized, to lay duties on exports. To deny this power is to take from the Common Govt. half the regulation of trade — It was his opinion that a power over exports might be more effectual than that over imports in obtaining beneficial treaties of commerce.
Mr. Gerry was strenuously opposed to the power over exports. It might be made use of to compel the States to comply with the will of the Genl Government, and to grant it any new powers which might be demanded — We have given it more power already than we know how will be exercised — It will enable the Genl Govt to oppress the States, as much as Ireland is oppressed by Great Britain.
Mr. Fitzimmons would be agst. a tax on exports to be laid immediately; but was for giving a power of laying the tax when a proper time may call for it — This would certainly be the case when America should become a manufacturing country — He illustrated his argument by the duties in G— Britain on wool c.
Col. Mason — If he were for reducing the States to mere corporations as seemed to be the tendency of some arguments, he should be for subjecting their exports as well as imports to a power of general taxation — He went on a principle often advanced in which he concurred, that “a majority when interested will oppress the minority”. This maxim had been verified by our own Legislature (of Virginia). If we compare the States in this point of view the 8 Northern States have an interest different from the five Southn. States, — and have in one branch of the legislature 36 votes agst 29. and in the other, in the proportion of 8 agst 5. The Southern States had therefore ground for their suspicions. The case of Exports was not the same with that of imports. The latter were the same throughout the States: the former very different. As to Tobacco other nations do raise it, and are capable of raising it as well as Virga. c. The impolicy of taxing that article had been demonstrated by the experiment of Virginia —
Mr Clymer remarked that every State might reason with regard to its particular productions, in the same manner as the Southern States. The middle States may apprehend an oppression of their wheat flour, provisions, c. and with more reason, as these articles were exposed to a competition in foreign markets not incident to Tobo. rice c — They may apprehend also combinations agst. them between the Eastern Southern States as much as the latter can apprehend them between the Eastern middle — He moved as a qualification of the power of taxing Exports that it should be restrained to regulations of trade, 〈by inserting after the word “duty” Sect 4 art VII the words〉 18 “for the purpose of revenue.”
On Question on Mr. Clymer’s motion
N. H— no— Mas. no. Ct. no. N. J— ay. Pa ay. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. no. N— C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 3; noes — 7.] 19
Mr. M〈adison,〉 In order to require ⅔ of each House to tax exports — as a lesser evil than a total prohibition 〈moved to insert the words “unless by consent of two thirds of the Legislature”〉, 20 Mr Wilson 2ds. and on this question, 〈it passed in the Negative.〉
N. H. ay. Mas— ay. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. no. (〈Col. Mason, Mr. Randolph Mr. Blair no.〉 Genl Washington J. M. ay.) N. C. no. S— C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 5; noes — 6.]
Question on sect: 4. art VII. as far as to 21 “no tax shl. be laid on exports — 〈It passed in the affirmative〉 —
N. H. no. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N— J. no. Pa. no— Del. no. Md ay. Va. ay (Genl W. J. M. no.) 22 N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo— ay. [Ayes — 7; noes — 4.]
Mr L— Martin, proposed to vary the sect: 4. art VII so as to allow a prohibition or tax on the importation of slaves. 23 1. As five slaves are to be counted as 3 free men in the apportionment of Representatives; such a clause wd. leave an encouragement to this trafic. 2 slaves weakened one part of the Union which the other parts were bound to protect: the privilege of importing them was therefore unreasonable — 3. it was inconsistent with the principles of the revolution and dishonorable to the American character to have such a feature in the Constitution.
Mr Rutlidge did not see how the importation of slaves could be encouraged by this section. He was not apprehensive of insurrections and would readily exempt the other States from 24 〈the obligation to protect the Southern against them.〉. — Religion humanity had nothing to do with this question — Interest alone is the governing principle with Nations — The true question at present is whether the Southn. States shall or shall not be parties to the Union. If the Northern States consult their interest, they will not oppose the increase of Slaves which will increase the commodities of which they will become the carriers.
Mr. Elseworth was for leaving the clause as it stands. let every State import what it pleases. The morality or wisdom of slavery are considerations belonging to the States themselves — What enriches a part enriches the whole, and the States are the best judges of their particular interest. The old confederation had not meddled with this point, and he did not see any greater necessity for bringing it within the policy of the new one:
Mr Pinkney. South Carolina can never receive the plan if it prohibits the slave trade. In every proposed extension of the powers of Congress, that State has expressly watchfully excepted that of meddling with the importation of negroes. If the States be all left at liberty on this subject, S. Carolina may perhaps by degrees do of herself what is wished, as Virginia Maryland have already done.
Adjourned 25
passed the 3 sect.
Took up 4 sect. adjourned, after passing the first clause to the word State 2 line inclusive.
The motion, made yesterday, to insert the word “free” before the word “persons” in the 4 section of the 7 article, being withdrawn,
It was moved and seconded to commit the two remaining clauses of the 4 section, and the 5 section of the 7 article
which passed in the affirmative. [Ayes — 7; noes — 3.]
It was moved and seconded to com’t the 6th section of the 7 article
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.]
and a Committee (of a Member from each State) was appointed by ballot of the honorable Mr Langdon, Mr King, Mr Johnson, Mr Livingston, Mr Clymer, Mr Dickinson, Mr L. Martin, Mr Madison, Mr Williamson, Mr C. C. Pinckney, Mr Baldwin. — to whom the 2 remaining clauses of the 4th ye 5 6 sections were referred.
The honorable Mr Rutledge, from the Committee to whom sundry propositions were referred on the 18 and 20th instant, informed the House that the Committee were prepared to report — he then read the report in his place — and the same, being delivered in at the Secretary’s table, was again read throughout, and is as follows
The Committee report that in their opinion the following additions should be made to the report now before the Convention vizt
at the end of the 1st clause of the 1st section of the 7 article add
“for payment of the debts and necessary expences of the United States — provided that no law for raising any branch of revenue, except what may be specially appropriated for the payment of interest on debts or loans shall continue in force for more than years”
at the end of the 2nd clause, 2 sect. 7 article add
“and with Indians, within the Limits of any State, not subject to the laws thereof”
at the end of the 16 clause of the 2 sect. 7 article add
“and to provide, as may become necessary, from time to time, for the well managing and securing the common property and general interests and welfare of the United States in such manner as shall not interfere with the Governments of individual States in matters which respect only their internal Police, or for which their individual authorities may be competent”
at the end of the 1st section 10 article add
“he shall be of the age of thirty five years, and a Citizen of the United States, and shall have been an Inhabitant thereof for Twenty one years”
after the 2nd section of the 10th article insert the following as a 3rd section.
“The President of the United States shall have a Privy-Council which shall consist of the President of the Senate, the Speaker of the House of representatives, the Chief-Justice of the Supreme-Court, and the principal Officer in the respective departments of foreign affairs, domestic-affairs, War, Marine, and Finance, as such departments of office shall from time to time be established — whose duty it shall be to advise him in matters respecting the execution of his Office, which he shall think proper to lay before them: But their advice shall not conclude him, nor affect his responsibility for the measures which he shall adopt”
at the end of the 2nd section of the 11 article add
“The Judges of the Supreme Court shall be triable by the Senate, on impeachment by the House of representatives” Between the 4 5 lines of the 3rd section of the 11 article, after the word “controversies” — insert
“between the United States and an individual State, or the United States and an individual person”
It was moved and seconded to rescind the order of the House respecting the hours of meeting and adjournment
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]
It was moved and seconded to insert the following clause after the 2nd section of the 7 article
“The Legislature shall pass no bill of attainder, nor any ex post facto laws.”
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 7; noes — 3; divided — 1.]
It was moved and seconded to take up the report of the Committee of five,
It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the report, in order that the Members may furnish themselves with copies of the report,
which passed in the affirmative. [Ayes — 6; noes — 5.]
It was moved and seconded to take up the report of the Committee of eleven, entered on the Journal of the 21st instant
which passed in the affirmative.
It was moved and seconded to amend the first clause of the report to read as follows.
“The Legislature shall fulfil the engagements and discharge the debts of the United States”
It was moved and seconded to alter the amendment by striking out the words “discharge the debts” and insert the words “liquidate the claims”
which passed in the negative
On the question to agree to the clause as amended, namely,
“The Legislature shall fulfil the engagements and discharge the debts of the United States”
it passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 11; noes — 0.] 1
It was moved and seconded to strike the following words out of the second clause of the report
“and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by the United States”
Before the question was taken on the last motion
The House adjourned
New Hampshire | Massachusetts | Rhode Island | Connecticut | New York | New Jersey | Pennsylvania | Delaware | Maryland | Virginia | No Carolina | So Carolina | Georgia | Questions | ayes | noes | divided | |
[337] | no | aye | aye | no | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | To commit ye remaing clauses of the 4th the 5 sect 7 article | 7 | 3 | ||||
[338] | aye | aye | no | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | To commit the 6th section 7 article | 9 | 2 | |||
[339] | no | aye | no | no | aye | aye | aye | no | no | no | no | To rescind the order of the House respecting the hours of meeting and adjournment | 4 | 7 | |||
[340] | aye | aye | no | no | no | aye | aye | aye | dd | aye | aye | To agree to the clause after the 2nd sect. 7 article | 7 | 3 | 1 | ||
[341] | no | aye | no | aye | no | no | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | To postpone the considn of the report of the Committee of five | 6 | 5 | |||
[342] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | To agree to Mr Morris’s amendment of the 1st clause of the report of the Committee of eleven | 11 |
Art. VII sect 4. resumed. 2 Mr. Sherman was for leaving the clause as it stands. He disapproved of the slave trade: yet as the States were now possessed of the right to import slaves, as the public good did not require it to be taken from them, as it was expedient to have as few objections as possible to the proposed scheme of Government, he thought it best to leave the matter as we find it. He observed that the abolition of slavery seemed to be going on in the U. S. that the good sense of the several States would probably by degrees compleat it. He urged on the Convention the necessity of despatch〈ing its business.〉
Col. Mason. This infernal trafic originated in the avarice of British Merchants. The British Govt. constantly checked the attempts of Virginia to put a stop to it. The present question concerns not the importing States alone but the whole Union. The evil of having slaves was experienced during the late war. Had slaves been treated as they might have been by the Enemy, they would have proved dangerous instruments in their hands. But their folly dealt by the slaves, as it did by the Tories. He mentioned the dangerous insurrections of the slaves in Greece and Sicily; and the instructions given by Cromwell to the Commissioners sent to Virginia, to arm the servants slaves, in case other means of obtaining its submission should fail. Maryland Virginia he said had already prohibited the importation of slaves expressly. N. Carolina had done the same in substance. All this would be in vain if S. Carolina Georgia be at liberty to import. The Western people are already calling out for slaves for their new lands; and will fill that Country with slaves if they can be got thro’ S. Carolina Georgia. Slavery discourages arts manufactures. The poor despise labor when performed by slaves. They prevent the immigration of Whites, who really enrich strengthen a Country. They produce the most pernicious effect on manners. Every master of slaves is born a petty tyrant. They bring the judgment of heaven on a Country. As nations can not be rewarded or punished in the next world they must be in this. By an inevitable chain of causes effects providence punishes national sins, by national calamities. He lamented that some of our Eastern brethren had from a lust of gain embarked in this nefarious traffic. As to the States being in possession of the Right to import, this was the case with many other rights, now to be properly given up. He held it essential in every point of view, that the Genl. Govt. should have power to prevent the increase of slavery.
Mr. Elsworth. As he had never owned a slave could not judge of the effects of slavery on character. He said however that if it was to be considered in a moral light we ought to go farther and free those already in the Country. — As slaves also multiply so fast in Virginia Maryland that it is cheaper to raise than import them, whilst in the sickly rice swamps foreign supplies are necessary, if we go no farther than is urged, we shall be unjust towards S. Carolina Georgia — Let us not intermeddle. As population increases; poor laborers will be so plenty as to render slaves useless. Slavery in time will not be a speck in our Country. Provision is already made in Connecticut for abolishing it. And the abolition has already taken place in Massachusetts. As to the danger of insurrections from foreign influence, that will become a motive to kind treatment of the slaves.
Mr. Pinkney — If slavery be wrong, it is justified by the example of all the world. He cited the case of Greece Rome other antient States; the sanction given by France England, Holland other modern States. In all ages one half of mankind have been slaves. If the S. States were let alone they will probably of themselves stop importations. He wd. himself as a Citizen of S. Carolina vote for it. An attempt to take away the right as proposed will produce serious objections to the Constitution which he wished to see adopted.
General Pinkney declared it to be his firm opinion that if himself all his colleagues were to sign the Constitution use their personal influence, it would be of no avail towards obtaining the assent of their Constituents. S. Carolina Georgia cannot do without slaves. As to Virginia she will gain by stopping the importations. Her slaves will rise in value, she has more than she wants. It would be unequal to require S. C. Georgia to confederate on such unequal terms. He said the Royal assent before the Revolution had never been refused to S. Carolina as to Virginia. He contended that the importation of slaves would be for the interest of the whole Union. The more slaves, the more produce to employ the carrying trade; The more consumption also, and the more of this, the more of revenue for the common treasury. He admitted it to be reasonable that slaves should be dutied like other imports, but should consider a rejection of the clause as an exclusion of S. Carola from the Union.
Mr. Baldwin had conceived national objects alone to be before the Convention, not such as like the present were of a local nature. Georgia was decided on this point. That State has always hitherto supposed a Genl Governmt to be the pursuit of the central States who wished to have a vortex for every thing — that her distance would preclude her from equal advantage — that she could not prudently purchase it by yielding national powers. From this it might be understood in what light she would view an attempt to abridge one of her favorite prerogatives. If left to herself, she may probably put a stop to the evil. As one ground for this conjecture, he took notice of the sect of which he said was a respectable class of people, who carryed their ethics beyond the mere equality of men, extending their humanity to the claims of the whole animal creation.
Mr. Wilson observed that if S. C. Georgia were themselves disposed to get rid of the importation of slaves in a short time as had been suggested, they would never refuse to Unite because the importation might be prohibited. As the Section now stands all articles imported are to be taxed. Slaves alone are exempt. This is in fact a bounty on that article.
Mr. Gerry thought we had nothing to do with the conduct of the States as to Slaves, but ought to be careful not to give any sanction to it.
Mr. Dickenson considered it as inadmissible on every principle of honor safety that the importation of slaves should be authorized to the States by the Constitution. The true question was whether the national happiness would be promoted or impeded by the importation, and this question ought to be left to the National Govt. not to the States particularly interested. If Engd. France permit slavery, slaves are at the same time excluded from both those Kingdoms. Greece and Rome were made unhappy by their slaves. He could not believe that the Southn. States would refuse to confederate on the account apprehended; especially as the power was not likely to be immediately exercised by the Genl. Government.
Mr Williamson stated the law of N. Carolina on the subject, to wit that it did not directly prohibit the importation of slaves. It imposed a duty of £5. on each slave imported from Africa. £10. on each from elsewhere, £50 on each from a State licensing manumission. He thought the S. States could not be members of the Union if the clause should be rejected, and that it was wrong to force any thing down, not absolutely necessary, and which any State must disagree to.
Mr. King thought the subject should be considered in a political light only. If two States will not agree to the Constitution as stated on one side, he could affirm with equal belief on the other, that great equal opposition would be experienced from the other States. He remarked on the exemption of slaves from duty whilst every other import was subjected to it, as an inequality that could not fail to strike the commercial sagacity of the Northn. middle States.
Mr. Langdon was strenuous for giving the power to the Genl. Govt. He cd. not with a good conscience leave it with the States who could then go on with the traffic, without being restrained by the opinions here given that they will themselves cease to import slaves.
Genl. Pinkney thought himself bound to declare candidly that he did not think S. Carolina would stop her importations of slaves in any short time, but only stop them occasionally as she now does. He moved to commit the clause that slaves might be made liable to an equal tax with other imports which he he thought right wch. wd. remove one difficulty that had been started.
Mr. Rutlidge. If the Convention thinks that N. C; S. C. Georgia will ever agree to the plan, unless their right to import slaves be untouched, the expectation is vain. The people of those States will never be such fools as to give up so important an interest. He was strenuous agst. striking out the Section, and seconded the motion of Genl. Pinkney for a commitment.
Mr Govr. Morris wished the whole subject to be committed including the clauses relating to taxes on exports to a navigation act. These things may form a bargain among the Northern Southern States.
Mr. Butler declared that he never would agree to the power of taxing exports.
Mr. Sherman said it was better to let the S. States import slaves than to part with them, if they made that a sine qua non. He was opposed to a tax on slaves imported as making the matter worse, because it implied they were property. He acknowledged that if the power of prohibiting the importation should be given to the Genl. Government that it would be exercised. He thought it would be its duty to exercise the power.
Mr. Read was for the commitment provided the clause concerning taxes on exports should also be committed.
Mr. Sherman observed that that clause had been agreed to therefore could not committed.
Mr. Randolph was for committing in order that some middle ground might, if possible, be found. He could never agree to the clause as it stands. He wd. sooner risk the constitution — He dwelt on the dilemma to which the Convention was exposed. By agreeing to the clause, it would revolt the Quakers, the Methodists, and many others in the States having no slaves. On the other hand, two States might be lost to the Union. Let us then, he said, try the chance of a commitment.
On the question for committing the remaining part of Sect 4 5. of art: 7. N. H. no. Mas. abst. Cont. ay N. J. ay Pa. no. Del. no Maryd ay. Va ay. N. C. ay S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 7; noes — 3; absent — 1.]
Mr. Pinkney Mr. Langdon moved to commit sect. 6. as to navigation act 〈by two thirds of each House.〉
Mr. Gorham did not see the propriety of it. Is it meant to require a greater proportion of votes? He desired it to be remembered that the Eastern States had no motive to Union but a commercial one. They were able to protect themselves. They were not afraid of external danger, and did not need the aid of the Southn. States.
Mr. Wilson wished for a commitment in order to reduce the proportion of votes required.
Mr. Elsworth was for taking the plan as it is. This widening of opinions has a threatening aspect. If we do not agree on this middle moderate ground he was afraid we should lose two States, with such others as may be disposed to stand aloof, should fly into a variety of shapes directions, and most probably into several confederations and not without bloodshed.
On Question for committing 6 sect. as to navigation Act to a member from each State — N. H. ay— Mas. ay. Ct no. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.]
The Committee appointed were Mr. Langdon, King, Johnson, Livingston, Clymer, Dickenson, L. Martin, 3 Madison, Williamson, C. C. Pinkney, Baldwin.
To this committee were referred also the two clauses above mentioned, of the 4 5. sect: of art. 7.
Mr. Rutlidge, from the Committee to whom were referred on the 18 20th. instant the propositions of Mr. Madison Mr. Pinkney, made the Report following. —
Ⅾ (〈Here insert〉 — the Report 〈from〉 the Journal of the Convention of this date.) —
A motion to rescind the order of the House respecting the hours of meeting adjourning, was negatived:
〈Mass: Pa. Del. Mard. . . . . . . . . . ay
N. H. Con: N. J. Va. N. C. S. C. Geo. no〉 4
Mr. Gerry 5 Mr. McHenry moved to insert after the 2d. sect. art: 7. the clause following, to wit, “The Legislature shall pass no bill of attainder nor 〈any〉 4 ex post facto law” *
Mr. Gerry urged the necessity of this prohibition, which he said was greater in the National than the State Legislature, because the number of members in the former being fewer, they were on that account the more to be feared.
Mr. Govr. Morris thought the precaution as to ex post facto laws unnecessary; but essential as to bills of attainder
Mr Elseworth contended that there was no lawyer, no civilian who would not say that ex post facto laws were void of themselves. It cannot then be necessary to prohibit them.
Mr. Wilson was against inserting anything in the Constitution as to ex post facto laws. It will bring reflexions on the Constitution — and proclaim that we are ignorant of the first principles of Legislation, or are constituting a Government which will be so.
The question being divided, The first part of the motion relating to bills of attainder was agreed to nem. contradicente.
On the second part relating to ex post facto laws —
Mr Carrol remarked that experience overruled all other calculations. It had proved that in whatever light they might be viewed by civilians or others, the State Legislatures had passed them, and they had taken effect.
Mr. Wilson. If these prohibitions in the State Constitutions have no effect, it will be useless to insert them in this Constitution. Besides, both sides will agree to the principle will differ as to its application.
Mr. Williamson. Such a prohibitory clause is in the Constitution of N. Carolina, and tho it has been violated, it has done good there may do good here, because the Judges can take hold of it
Docr. Johnson thought the clause unnecessary, and implying an improper suspicion of the National Legislature.
Mr. Rutlidge was in favor of the clause.
On the question for inserting the prohibition of ex post facto laws.
N— H— ay— Mas. ay. Cont. no. N. J— no. Pa. no. Del— ay. Md. ay. Virga. ay N— C. divd. S. C. ay— Geo. ay. [Ayes — 7; noes — 3; divided — 1.]
The report of the committee of 5. made by Mr. Rutlidge, was taken up then postponed that each member Might furnish himself with a copy.
The Report of the Committee of Eleven delivered in entered on the Journal of the 21st. inst. was then taken up. and the first clause containing the words “The Legislature of the U. S. shall have power to fulfil the engagements which have been entered into by Congress” being under consideration, 6
Mr. Elsworth argued that they were unnecessary. The U— S— heretofore entered into Engagements by Congs who were their Agents. They will hereafter be bound to fulfil them by their new agents.
Mr Randolph thought such a provision necessary; for though the U. States will be bound, the new Govt will have no authority in the case unless it be given to them.
Mr. Madison thought it necessary to give the authority in order to prevent misconstruction. He mentioned the attempts made by the Debtors to British subjects to shew that contracts under the old Government, were dissolved by the Revolution which destroyed the political identity of the Society.
Mr Gerry thought it essential that some explicit provision should be made on this subject, so that no pretext might remain for getting rid of the public engagements.
Mr. Govr. Morris moved by way of amendment to substitute — “The Legislature shall discharge the debts fulfil the engagements 〈of the U. States〉”.
It was moved to vary the amendment by striking out “discharge the debts” to insert “liquidate the claims”, which being negatived,
The amendment moved by Mr. Govr. Morris was agreed to all the States being in the affirmative.
It was moved 2ded. to strike the following words — out of the 2d. clause of the report “and the authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by the U— S.” 〈Before a question was taken〉 7
The House adjourned 8
Committed the remainder of the 4 sect. with the 5 and 6.
The 4 sect promitting the importation of Slaves gave rise to much desultory debate.
Every 5 slaves counted in representation as one elector without being equal in point of strength to one white inhabitant.
This gave the slave States an advantage in representation over the others.
The slaves were moreover exempt from duty on importation.
They served to render the representation from such States aristocratical.
It was replied — That the population or increase of slaves in Virginia exceeded their calls for their services — That a prohibition of Slaves into S. Carolina Georgia etc — would be a monopoly in their favor. These States could not do without Slaves — Virginia etc would make their own terms for such as they might sell.
Such was the situation of the country that it could not exist without slaves — That they could confederate on no other condition.
They had enjoyed the right of importing slaves when colonies.
They enjoyed as States under the confederation — And if they could not enjoy it under the proposed government, they could not associate or make a part of it.
Several additions were reported by the Committee.
Mr. Martin shewed us some restrictory clauses drawn up for the VII article respecting commerce — which we agreed to bring forward. —
Moved that the legislature should pass no ex post facto laws or bills of attainder.
G. Morris Willson Dr. Johnson etc thought the first an unnecessary guard as the principles of justice law et[c] were a perpetual bar to such — To say that the legis. shall not pass an ex post facto law is the same as to declare they shall not do a thing contrary to common sense — that they shall not cause that to be a crime which is no crime —
Carried in the affirmative.
It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the second clause of the report of the Committee of eleven in order to take up the following
“To establish an uniform and general system of discipline for the militia of these States, and to make laws for organizing, arming, disciplining and governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively the appointment of the Officers and all authority over the militia not herein given to the general Government”
On the question to postpone
it passed in the negative [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]
It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the second clause of the report of the Committee of eleven in order to take up the following
“To establish an uniformity of arms, exercise, and organization for the militia — and to provide for the government of them when called into the service of the United States”
On the question to postpone
it passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 1; noes — 10.] 1
It was moved and seconded to recommit the 2nd clause of the report of the Committee of eleven
which passed in the negative.
On the question to agree to the first part of the 2nd clause of the report, namely
“To make laws for organizing, arming, and disciplining the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States”
it passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.]
It was moved and seconded to amend the next part of the 2nd clause of the report to read
“reserving to the States, respectively, the appointment of the Officers under the rank of general Officers
it passed in the negative. [Ayes — 2; noes — 9.]
On the question to agree to the following part of the 2nd clause of the report, namely,
“reserving to the States, respectively, the appointment of the Officers”
it passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the following part of the 2nd clause of the report, namely,
“and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by the United States”
it passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 7; noes — 4.] 2
It was moved and seconded to agree to the 7 section of the 7 article, as reported,
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 11; noes — 0.]
It was moved and seconded to insert the following clause after the 7 section of the 7 article.
“No person holding any office of profit or trust under the United States, shall without the consent of the Legislature accept of any present, emolument, office, or title of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign State”
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to amend the 8th article to read as follows
“This Constitution and the Laws of the United States made in pursuance thereof, and all treaties made under the authority of the United-States, shall be the supreme law of the several States, and of their Citizens and inhabitants; and the Judges in the several States shall be bound thereby in their decisions; any thing in the constitutions or laws of the several States to the contrary notwithstanding”
which passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the 8 article as amended
it passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to strike the following words out of the 18 clause of the 1st section 7 article
“enforce treaties”
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to alter the first part of the 18 clause of the 1st section, 7 article to read
“To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the Union, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions”
which passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the 18th clause of the 1st section, 7 article, as amended
it passed in the affirmative.
It was moved and seconded to agree to the following proposition, as an additional power to be vested in the Legislature of the United States.
“To negative all laws passed by the several States interfering, in the opinion of the Legislature, with the general interests and harmony of the Union — provided that two thirds of the Members of each House assent to the same.”
It was moved and seconded to commit the proposition
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 5; noes — 6.]
The Proposition was then withdrawn.
It was moved and seconded to amend the 1st section of the 7. article to read
“The Legislature shall fulfil the engagements and discharge the debts of the United-States, and shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises.”
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to amend the first clause of the first section 9. article to read
“The Senate shall have power to treat with foreign nations, but no Treaty shall be binding on the United States which is not ratified by a Law.”
It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the amendment.
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 5; noes — 5.] 3
On the question to agree to the amendment.
it passed in the negative [Ayes — 1; noes — 8; divided — 1].
It was moved and seconded to postpone the considn of the first clause of the 1st sect. 9 article
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to insert the words
“and other public ministers” after the word “ambassadors” in the first section 9 article
which passed in the affirmative
Separate questions being taken on postponing the several clauses of the first sect. 9 article
they passed in the affirmative.
It was moved and seconded to take up the 1st section of the 9 article, in order to it’s being committed
which passed in the affirmative.
and it was referred to the Committee of five.
and then the House adjourned
New Hampshire | Massachusetts | Rhode Island | Connecticut | New York | New Jersey | Pennsylvania | Delaware | Maryland | Virginia | No Carolina | So Carolina | Georgia | Questions | ayes | noes | divided | |
[343] | no | no | no | aye | no | no | aye | no | no | no | aye | To postpone ye 2nd clause of the report of the Comme | 3 | 8 | |||
[p. 13] | |||||||||||||||||
[344] | no | no | aye | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | To postpone ye 2 clause of the report to take up Mr Elsworths amendt | 1 | 10 | |||
[345] | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | To agree to the 1st part of ye 2d clause of the report of the Committee of eleven | 9 | 2 | |||
[346] | aye | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | aye | no | To agree to the appointment of the Genl Officers of the militia by the genl Govt | 2 | 9 | |||
[347] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | no | aye | no | no | To agree to the last clause of the report | 8 | 3 | |||
[348] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | “The United States shall not grant titles of nobility” | |||||
[349] | aye | no | no | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | no | no | To commit the motion for giving a negative to the Legislature of the U. S. over the State laws. | 5 | 6 | |||
[350] | no | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | no | no | To postpone Mr Morris’s amendment to the 1st clause 1st sect. 9 article | 5 | 5 | ||||
[351] | no | no | no | aye | no | no | no | dd | no | no | To agree to the amendment | 1 | 8 | 1 |
The Report of the Committee of Eleven made Aug: 21. being taken up, and the following clause being under consideration to wit “To make laws for organizing, arming disciplining the Militia, and for governing such parts of them as may be employed in the service of the U. S. reserving to the States respectively, the appointment of the officers, and authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed” — 4
Mr Sherman moved to strike out the last member — “and authority of training c. He thought it unnecessary. The States will have this authority of course if not given up.
Mr. Elsworth doubted the propriety of striking out the sentence. The reason assigned applies as well to the other reservation of the appointment to offices. He remarked at the same time that the term discipline was of vast extent and might be so expounded as to include all power on the subject.
Mr. King, by way of explanation, said that by organizing the Committee meant, proportioning the officers men — by arming, specifying the kind size and caliber of arms — by disciplining prescribing the manual exercise evolutions c.
Mr. Sherman withdrew his motion
Mr Gerry, This power in the U— S. as explained is making the States drill-sergeants. He had as lief let the Citizens of Massachusetts be disarmed, as to take the command from the States, and subject them to the Genl Legislature. It would be regarded as a system of Despotism.
Mr Madison observed that “ arming ” as explained did not did not extend to furnishing arms; nor the term “disciplining” to penalties Courts martial for enforcing them.
Mr. King added, to his former explanation that arming meant not only to provide for uniformity of arms, but included authority to regulate the modes of furnishing, either by the militia themselves, the State Governments, or the National Treasury: that laws for disciplining, must involve penalties and every thing necessary for enforcing penalties.
Mr. Dayton moved to postpone the paragraph, in order to take up the following proposition
“To establish an uniform general system of discipline for the Militia of these States, and to make laws for organizing, arming, disciplining governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the U. S., reserving to the States respectively the appointment of the officers, and all authority over the Militia not herein given to the General Government”
On the question to postpone in favor of this proposition: 〈it passed in the Negative〉
N. H. no. Mas— no. Ct no. N. J. ay. P. no. Del. no. Maryd ay. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]
Mr. Elsworth Mr. Sherman moved to postpone the 2d. clause in favor of the following
“To establish an uniformity of arms, exercise organization for the Militia, and to provide for the Government of them when called into the service of the U. States”
The object of this proposition was to refer the plan for the Militia to the General Govt. but leave the execution of it to the State Govts.
Mr Langdon said He could not understand the jealousy expressed by some Gentleman. The General State Govts. were not enemies to each other, but different institutions for the good of the people of America. As one of the people he could say, the National Govt. is mine, the State Govt is mine — In transferring power from one to the other — I only take out of my left hand what it cannot so well use, and put it into my right hand where it can be better used.
Mr. Gerry thought it was rather taking out of the right hand putting it into the left. Will any man say that liberty will be as safe in the hands of eighty or a hundred men taken from the whole continent, as in the hands of two or three hundred taken from a single State?
Mr. Dayton was against so absolute a uniformity. In some States there ought to be a greater proportion of cavalry than in others. In some places rifles would be most proper, in others muskets c —
Genl Pinkney preferred the clause reported by the Committee, extending the meaning of it to the case of fines c —
Mr. Madison. The primary object is to secure an effectual discipline of the Militia. This will no more be done if left to the States separately than the requisitions have been hitherto paid by them. The States neglect their Militia now, and the more they are consolidated into one nation, the less each will rely on its own interior provisions for its safety the less prepare its Militia for that purpose; in like manner as the Militia of a State would have been still more neglected than it has been if each County had been independently charged with the care of its Militia. The Discipline of the Militia is evidently a National concern, and ought to be provided for in the National Constitution.
Mr L— Martin was confident that the States would never give up the power over the Militia; and that, if they were 〈to do so,〉 the militia would be less attended to by the Genl. than by the State Governments.
Mr Randolph asked what danger there could be that the Militia could be brought into the field and made to commit suicide on themselves. This is a power that cannot from its nature be abused, unless indeed the whole mass should be corrupted. He was for trammelling the Genl Govt. whenever there was danger. but here there could be none— He urged this as an essential point; observing that the Militia were every where neglected by the State Legislatures, the members of which courted popularity too much to enforce a proper discipline. Leaving the appointment of officers to the States protects the people agst. every apprehension that could produce murmur.
On Question on Mr. Elsworth’s Motion
N. H. no. Mas— no— Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va no— N— C. no. S. C no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 1; noes — 10.]
A motion was then made to recommit the 2d clause which was negatived.
On the question to agree to the 1st. part of the clause, namely
“To make laws for organizing arming disciplining the Militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the U. S”.
N. H ay. Mas. ay. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md no. Va ay. N— C— ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 9 noes — 2.]
Mr. Madison moved to amend the next part of the clause so as to read “reserving to the States respectively, the appointment of the officers, under the rank of General officers. ”
Mr. Sherman considered this as absolutely inadmissible. He said that if the people should be so far asleep as to allow the Most influential officers of the Militia to be appointed by the Genl. Government, every man of discernment would rouse them by sounding the alarm to them —
Mr. Gerry. Let us at once destroy the State Govts have an Executive for life or hereditary, and a proper Senate, and then there would be some consistency in giving full powers to the Genl Govt. but as the States are not to be abolished, he wondered at the attempts that were made to give powers inconsistent with their existence. He warned the Convention agst pushing the experiment too far. Some people will support a plan of vigorous Government at every risk. Others of a more democratic cast will oppose it with equal determination. And a Civil war may be produced by the conflict.
Mr. Madison. As the greatest danger is that of disunion of the States, it is necessary to guard agst. it by sufficient powers to the Common Govt. and as the greatest danger to liberty is from large standing armies, it is best to prevent them by an effectual provision for a good Militia —
On the Question to agree to Mr. Madison’s motion
N— H— ay — Mas— no— Ct no— N— J— no— Pa no— Del— no— Md no— Va no— N— C— no— S— C— ay— Geo— * ay. [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]
On the question to agree to the “reserving to the States the appointment of the officers”. It was agreed to nem: contrad:
On the question on the clause “and the authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by the U. S” —
N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay— N— J— ay. Pa. ay— Del. no. Md. ay. Va. no— N— C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no— [Ayes — 7; noes — 4.]
On the question to agree 〈to〉 Art. VII— sect. 7. 〈as reported〉 5 It passed nem: contrad:
Mr Pinkney urged the necessity of preserving foreign Ministers other officers of the U. S. independent of external influence and moved to insert — after Art VII sect 7. the clause following — “No person holding any office of profit or trust under the U. S. shall without the consent of the Legislature, accept of any present, emolument, office or title of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince or foreign State which passed nem: contrad. 6
Mr. Rutlidge moved to amend Art: VIII to read as follows,
“This Constitution the laws of the U. S. made in pursuance thereof, and all Treaties made under the authority of the U. S. shall be the supreme law of the several States and of their citizens and inhabitants; and the Judges in the several States shall be bound thereby in their decisions, any thing in the Constitutions or laws of the several States, to the contrary notwithstanding” — 7
which was agreed to, nem: contrad:
Art: IX being next for consideration, 8
Mr Govr Morris argued agst. the appointment of officers by the Senate. He considered the body as too numerous for the purpose; as subject to cabal; and as devoid of responsibility. — If Judges were to be tried by the Senate according to a late report of a Committee it was particularly wrong to let the Senate have the filling of vacancies which its own decrees were to create.
Mr. Wilson was of the same opinion for like reasons.
The art IX— being waved— and art VII. sect 1. resumed, 9
Mr Govr Morris moved to strike the following words out of the 18 clause “enforce treaties” as being superfluous since treaties were to be “laws” . . . . . . which was agreed to nem: contrad:
Mr Govr Morris moved to alter 1st. part. of 18. clause — sect. 1. art. VII so as to read “to provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the Union, 10 suppress insurrections and repel invasions”. which was agreed to nem: contrad
On the question then to agree to the 18 clause of sect. 1. art: 7. as amended it passed in the affirmative nem: contradicente.
Mr C— Pinkney moved to add as an additional power to be vested in the Legislature of the U. S. “To negative all laws passed by the several States interfering in the opinion of the Legislature with the General interests and harmony of the Union;” provided that two thirds of the members of each House assent to the same” This principle he observed had formerly been agreed to. 11 He considered the precaution as essentially necessary: The objection drawn from the predominance of the large 〈States〉 had been removed by the equality established in the Senate— Mr. Broome 2ded. the proposition.
Mr. Sherman thought it unnecessary; the laws of the General Government being Supreme paramount to the State laws according to the plan, as it now stands.
Mr. Madison proposed that it should be committed— He had been from the beginning a friend to the principle; but thought the modification might be made better.
Mr. Mason wished to know how the power was to be exercised. Are all laws whatever to be brought up? Is no road nor bridge to be established without the Sanction of the General Legislature? Is this to sit constantly in order to receive revise the State Laws? He did not mean by these remarks to condemn the expedient, but he was apprehensive that great objections would lie agst. it.
Mr. Williamson thought it unnecessary, having been already decided, a revival of the question was a waste of time.
Mr. Wilson considered this as the key-stone wanted to compleat the wide arch of Government we are raising. The power of self-defence had been urged as necessary for the State Governments— It was equally necessary for the General Government. The firmness of Judges is not of itself sufficient Something further is requisite— It will be better to prevent the passage of an improper law, than to declare it void when passed.
Mr. Rutlidge. If nothing else, this alone would damn and ought to damn the Constitution. Will any State ever agree to be bound hand foot in this manner. It is worse than making mere corporations of them whose bye laws would not be subject to this shackle.
Mr Elseworth observed that the power contended for wd. require either that all laws of the State Legislatures should previously to their taking effect be transmitted to the Genl Legislature, or be repealable by the Latter; or that the State Executives should be appointed by the Genl Government, and have a controul over the State laws. If the last was meditated let it be declared. 12
Mr. Pinkney declared that he thought the State Executives ought to be so appointed with such a controul. that it would be so provided if another Convention should take place.
Mr Governr. Morris did not see the utility or practicability of the proposition of Mr. Pinkney, but wished it to be referred to the consideration of a Committee.
Mr Langdon was in favor of the proposition. He considered it as resolvable into the question whether the extent of the National Constitution was to be judged of by the Genl or the State Governments.
On the question for commitment, 〈it passed in the negative.〉
N— H. ay. Masts: no. Cont. no N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del: ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 5; noes — 6.] 13
Mr Pinkney then withdrew his proposition.
The 1st sect. of art: VII being so amended as to read “The Legislature shall fulfil the engagements and discharge the debts of the U. S, shall have the power to lay collect taxes duties imposts excises”, 〈was agreed to〉 14
Mr. Butler expressed his dissatisfaction lest it should compel payment as well to the Blood-suckers who had speculated on the distresses of others, as to those who had fought bled for their country. He would be ready he said tomorrow to vote for a discrimination between those classes of people, and gave notice that he should move for a reconsideration.
Art IX. sect. 1. being resumed, to wit “The Senate of the U. S. shall have power to make treaties, and to appoint Ambassadors, and Judges of the Supreme Court.”
Mr. 〈Madison〉 observed that the Senate represented the States alone, and that for this as well as other obvious reasons it was proper that the President should be an agent in Treaties. 15
Mr. Govr. Morris did not know that he should agree to refer the making of Treaties to the Senate at all, but for the present wd. move to add as an amendment to the section, after “Treaties” — “but no Treaty shall be binding on the U. S. which is not ratified by a law.”
Mr Madison suggested the inconvenience of requiring a legal ratification of treaties of alliance for the purposes of war c c
Mr. Ghorum. Many other disadvantages must be experienced if treaties of peace and all negociations are to be previously ratified — and if not prevously, the Ministers would be at a loss how to proceed— What would be the case in G. Britain if the King were to proceed in this maner? American Ministers must go abroad not instructed by the same Authority (as will be the case with other Ministers) which is to ratify their proceedings.
Mr. Govr. Morris. As to treaties of alliance, they will oblige foreign powers to send their Ministers here, the very thing we should wish for. Such treaties could not be otherwise made, if his amendment shd. succeed. In general he was not solicitous to multiply facilitate Treaties. He wished none to be made with G. Britain, till she should be at war. Then a good bargain might be made with her. So with other foreign powers. The more difficulty in making treaties, the more value will be set on them.
Mr. Wilson. In the most important Treaties, the King of G. Britain being obliged to resort to Parliament for the execution of them, is under the same fetters as the amendment of Mr. Morris will impose on the Senate. It was refused yesterday to permit even the Legislature to lay duties on exports. Under the clause, without the amendment, the Senate alone can make a Treaty, requiring all the Rice of S. Carolina to be sent to some one particular port.
Mr. Dickinson concurred in the amendment, as most safe and proper, tho’ he was sensible it was unfavorable to the little States; wch would otherwise have an equal share in making Treaties.
Docr. Johnson thought there was something of solecism in saying that the acts of a Minister with plenipotentiary powers from one Body, should depend for ratification on another Body. The Example of the King of G. B. was not parallel. Full compleat power was vested in him— If the Parliament should fail to provide the necessary means of execution, the Treaty would be violated.
Mr. Ghorum in answer to Mr. Govr Morris, said that negociations on the spot were not to be desired by us, especially if the whole Legislature is to have any thing to do with Treaties. It will be generally influenced by two or three men, who will be corrupted by the Ambassadors here. In such a Government as ours, it is necessary to guard against the Government itself being seduced.
Mr. Randolph observing that almost every Speaker had made objections to the clause as it stood, moved in order to a further consideration of the subject, that the Motion of Mr. Govr. Morris should be postponed, and on this question 〈It was lost the States being equally divided.〉
Massts. no. Cont. no. N. J— ay— Pena. ay. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay— N. C. no. S. C. no— Geo. no. [Ayes — 5; noes — 5.]
On Mr. Govr. Morris Motion
Masts. no. Cont no. N. J. no. Pa. ay— Del. no— Md. no. Va. no. N. C divd S. C. no. Geo— no. [Ayes — 1; noes — 8; divided — 1.]
The several clauses of Sect: 1. art IX, were then separately postponed after inserting “and other public Ministers” next after “Ambassadors.”
Mr. Madison hinted for consideration, whether a distinction might not be made between different sorts of Treaties — Allowing the President Senate to make Treaties eventual and of Alliance for limited terms — and requiring the concurrence of the whole Legislature in other Treaties.
The 1st Sect. art IX. was finally referred nem: con: to the committee of Five, and the House then
Adjourned. 16
7 sect. agreed to.
On motion, on a proposition reported and amended agreed that “ The legislature shall fulfil the engagements and discharge the debts of the U. S.” To make the first clause in the VII article — Amended the first clause in the report of the said article by striking out the words, the legislature of the U. S. Added in the said article after the clause “to provide and maintain fleets.”
To organize and discipline the militia and govern such part of them as may be employed in the service of the U. S. reserving to the States respectively the appointment of the officers and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by the U. S.”
Expunged in the VIII article the words the acts of the legislature of the U. S. and of this constitution, so as that the constitution and laws made in pursuance thereof etc should be the supreme laws of the several States —
The IX article being taken up, It was motioned that no treaty should be binding till it received the sanction of the legislature.
It was said 17 that a minister could not then be instructed by the Senate who were to appoint him, or if instructed there could be no certainty that the house of representatives would agree to confirm what he might agree to under these instructions.
To this it was answered 18 that all treaties which contravene a law of England or require a law to give them operation or effect are inconclusive till agreed to by the legislature of Great Britain.
Except in such cases the power of the King without the concurrence of the parliament conclusive.
Mr. Maddison. the Kings power over treaties final and original except in granting subsidies or dismembering the empire. These required parliamentary acts.
Commiteed.
Adjourned.
The honorable Mr Livingston, from the Committee of eleven to whom were referred the two remaining clauses of the 4th section, and the 5th and 6th sections of the 7 article, informed the House that the Committee were prepared to report. The report was then delivered in at the Secretary’s table, was once read, and is as follows.
“Strike out so much of the 4th section of the 7th article as was referred to the Committee and insert “The migration or importation of such persons as the several States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Legislature prior to the year 1800 — but a Tax or Duty may be imposed on such migration or importation at a rate not exceeding the average of the Duties laid on Imports.”
“The 5th section to remain as in the report”
“The 6th section to be stricken out”
It was moved and seconded to reconsider the 1st clause 1st sect. 7 article
which passed in the affirmative
and to-morrow was assigned for the reconsideration [Ayes — 7; noes — 2.]
It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the 2nd and 3rd sections 9 article.
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 3; noes — 7.]
It was moved and seconded to strike out the 2nd and 3rd sections of the 9th article
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 8; noes — 2.]
Separate questions being taken on the 1st 2nd and 3rd clauses of the 1st section — 10th article, as reported,
they passed in the affirmative.
It was moved and seconded to strike out the word “Legislature” and to insert the word “People” in the 1st section 10th article.
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 2; noes — 9.]
It was moved and seconded to insert the word “joint” before the word “ballot” in the 1st section of the 10th article
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 7; noes — 4.]
It was moved and seconded to add after the word “Legislature” in the 1st section 10th article the words “each State having one vote”
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 5; noes — 6.]
It was moved and seconded to insert after the word “Legislature” in the 1st sect. of the 10 article the words “to which election a majority of the votes of the Members present shall be required”
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 10; noes — 1.]
On the question to agree to the following clause
“and in case the numbers for the two highest in votes should be equal, then the President of the Senate shall have an additional casting voice”
it passed in the negative.
It was moved and seconded to agree to the following amendment to the first sect. of the 10th article
“shall be chosen by electors to be chosen by the People of the several States”
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 5; noes — 6.]
It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the two last clauses of the 1st sect. 10 article
which passed in the negative
It was moved and seconded to refer the two last clauses of the 1st sect. 10 article. to a committee of a Member from each State.
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 5; noes — 5; divided — 1.]
On the question to agree to the following clause
“shall be chosen by electors”
it passed in the negative [Ayes — 4; noes — 4; divided — 2.]
The consideration of the remaining clauses of the 1st section 10 article was postponed till to-morrow on the request of the Deputies of the State of New Jersey.
On the question to transpose the word “information” and to insert it after the word “Legislature” in the first clause of the 2 sect. 10 article
it passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to strike out the words “he may” and to insert the word “and” before the word “recommend” in the second clause of the 2 sect. 10 article
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to insert the word “and” after the word “occasions” in the 2 sect. 10 article;
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to insert the word “shall” before the words “think proper” 2 sect. 10 article.
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to strike out the words “officers” and to insert the words “to offices” after the word “appoint” in the 2 sect. of the 10 article
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to insert the words “or by law” after the word “constitution” in the 2nd section of the 10th article
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 1; noes — 9.]
It was moved and seconded to strike out the words “and shall appoint to offices in all cases not otherwise provided for by this Constitution” and to insert the following
“and shall appoint to all offices established by this Constitution, except in cases herein otherwise provided for, and to all offices which may here after be created by law.”
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 6; noes — 4.] 1
It was moved and seconded to add the following clause to the last amendment
“except where by Law the appointment shall be vested in the 2 Executives of the several States”
which passed in the negative 3
It was moved and seconded to agree to the following order
“That the order respecting the adjournment at four be repealed, and that in future the House assemble at ten and adjourn at three
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 10; noes — 0.]
The House adjourned
New Hampshire | Massachusetts | Rhode Island | Connecticut | New York | New Jersey | Pennsylvania | Delaware | Maryland | Virginia | No Carolina | So Carolina | Georgia | Questions | ayes | noes | divided | |
[352] | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | To reconsider the 1st sec. 7 article to-morrow | 7 | 2 | |||||
[353] | aye | no | no | no | no | no | no | aye | no | aye | To postpone ye 2 sect. 9 article | 3 | 7 | ||||
[354] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | no | To strike out the 2 3 sections 9th article | 8 | 2 | ||||
[355] | no | no | no | no | aye | aye | no | no | no | no | no | To strike out the word Legislature, and insert the word “People” 1st sect. 10 article | 2 | 9 | |||
[356] | aye | aye | no | no | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | no | To insert the word joint before the word ballot. | 7 | 4 | |||
[357] | no | no | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | no | no | no | aye | “each State having One vote” | 5 | 6 | |||
[358] | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | a majority of the votes of Members present required | 10 | 1 | |||
[359] | no | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | no | no | no | To be elected by the Electors. | 5 | 6 | |||
[360] | no | no | dd | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | no | no | To commit ye 2 last clauses 1 sect. 10 art. | 5 | 5 | 1 | ||
[361] | no | dd | aye | aye | aye | dd | aye | no | no | no | To be elected by Electors. | 4 | 4 | 2 | |||
[362] | no | no | aye | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | To add the words “or by law” 2 sect. 10 art. | 1 | 9 | ||||
[363] | no | no | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | no | aye | To agree to Mr. Dickinson’s amendment | 6 | 4 | ||||
[364] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | To adjourn at 3 o’Clock |
Governour Livingston, from the Committee of Eleven, to whom were referred the two remaining clauses of the 4th. Sect the 5 6 Sect: of the 7th. art: delivered in the following Report:
“Strike out so much of the 4th. sect: as was referred to the Committee and insert — “The migration or importation of such persons as the several States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Legislature prior to the year 1800, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such migration or importation at a rate not exceeding the average of the duties laid on imports.”
“The 5 Sect: to remain as in the Report” 4
“The 6 Sect. to be stricken out” 4
Mr. Butler, according to notice, moved that clause 1st. sect. 1. of art VII, as to the discharge of debts, be reconsidered tomorrow— He dwelt on the division of opinion concerning the domestic debts, and the different pretensions of the different classes of holders. Genl. Pinkney 2ded. him.
Mr. Randolph wished for a reconsideration in order to better the expression, and to provide for the case of the State debts as is done by Congress.
On the question for reconsidering
N— H. no. Mas: ay. Cont. ay N. J. 〈ay.〉 5 Pena. absent. Del. ay— Md. no. Va. ay— N. C. absent, S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 7; noes — 2; absent — 2.] — and tomorrow assigned for the reconsideration.
Sect: 2 3 of art: IX being taken up, 6
Mr Rutlidge said this provision 〈for deciding controversies between the States〉 was necessary under the Confederation, but will be rendered unnecessary by the National Judiciary now to be established, and moved to strike it out.
Docr. Johnson 2ded. the Motion
Mr. Sherman concurred: so did Mr Dayton.
Mr. Williamson was for postponing instead of striking out, in order to consider whether this might not be a good provision, in cases where the Judiciary were interested or too closely connected with the parties—
Mr. Ghorum had doubts as to striking out, The Judges might be connected with the States being parties — He was inclined to think the mode proposed in the clause would be more satisfactory than to refer such cases to the Judiciary —
On the Question for postponing 〈the 2d and 3d Section, it passed in the negative〉
N. H. ay. Masts. no. 〈Cont. no〉 N. J. no. Pena abst. Del. no. Md. no. Va no. N. C. 〈ay〉 S—C no. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 3; noes — 7; absent — 1.] 7
Mr. Wilson urged the striking out, the Judiciary being a better provision.
On Question for striking out 2 3 Sections Art: IX
N. H. ay. Mas: ay. Ct. ay. N. J— ay. Pa. abst. Del— ay. Md. ay. Va ay. N. C. no. S. C. ay— Geo. no. [Ayes — 8; noes — 2; absent — 1.]
Art X. sect. 1. “The executive power of the U— S— shall be vested in a single person. His stile shall be “The President of the U— S. of America” and his title shall be “His Excellency”. He shall be elected by ballot by the Legislature. He shall hold his office during the term of seven years; but shall not be elected a second time.
On the question for vesting the power in a single person — It was agreed to nem: con: So also on the Stile and title —
Mr. Rutlidge moved to insert “joint” before the word “ballot”, as the most convenient mode of electing.
Mr. Sherman objected to it as depriving the States represented in the Senate of the negative intended them in that house,
Mr. Ghorum said it was wrong to be considering, at every turn whom the Senate would represent. The public good was the true object to be kept in view— Great delay and confusion would ensue if the two Houses shd vote separately, each having a negative on the choice of the other.
Mr. Dayton. It might be well for those not to consider how the Senate was constituted, whose interest it Was to keep it out of sight. — If the amendment should be agreed to, a joint ballot would in fact give the appointment to one House. He could never agree to the clause with such an amendment. There could be no 〈doubt〉 8 of the two Houses separately concurring in the same person for President. The importance necessity of the case would ensure 〈a concurrence〉.
Mr. Carrol moved to strike out, “by the Legislature” and insert “by the people” — Mr Wilson 2ded. him on the question
N. H. no. Massts. no. Cont. no. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md no. Va. no N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 2; noes — 9.]
Mr Brearly was opposed to the motion for inserting the word “joint”. The argument that the small States should not put their hands into the pockets of the large ones did not apply in this case.
Mr. Wilson urged the reasonableness of giving the larger States a larger share of the appointment, and the danger of delay from a disagreement of the two Houses. He remarked also that the Senate had peculiar powers balancing the advantage given by a joint balot in this case to the other branch of the Legislature.
Mr. Langdon. This general officer ought to be elected by the joint general voice. In N. Hampshire the mode of separate votes by the two Houses was productive of great difficulties. The Negative of the Senate would hurt the feelings of the man elected by the votes of the other branch. He was for inserting “joint” tho’ unfavorable to N. Hampshire as a small State.
Mr. Wilson remarked that as the President of the Senate was to be the President of the U— S. that Body in cases of vacancy might have an interest in throwing dilatory obstacles in the way, if its separate concurrence should be required.
Mr. Madison. If the amendment be agreed to the rule of voting will give to the largest State, compared with the smallest, an influence as 4 to 1 only, altho the population is as 10 to 1. This surely cannot be unreasonable as the President is to act for the people not for the States. The President of the Senate also is to be occasionally President of the U. S. and by his negative alone can make ¾ of the other branch necessary to the passage of a law — This is another advantage enjoyed by the Senate.
On the question for inserting “joint”, 〈it passed in the affirmative〉
N. H. ay. Masts ay— Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. ay— Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no. [Ayes — 7; noes — 4.]
Mr. Dayton then moved to insert, after the word “Legislatures” the words “each State having one vote” Mr Brearly 2ded. him, and on the question 〈it passed in the negative〉
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. no. Del. ay. Md ay. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. ay [Ayes — 5; noes — 6.]
Mr. Pinkney moved to insert after the word “Legislature” the words “to which election a majority of the votes of the members present shall be required”
On this question, 〈it passed in the affirmative〉
N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. ay— Md. ay— Va. ay— N. C. ay— S. C. ay— Geo. ay. [Ayes — 10; noes — 1.]
Mr Read moved “that in case the numbers for the two highest in votes should be equal, then the President of the Senate shall have an additional casting vote”, which was disagreed to by a general negative.
Mr. Govr Morris opposed the election of the President by the Legislature. He dwelt on the danger of rendering the Executive uninterested in maintaining the rights of his Station, as leading to Legislative tyranny. If the Legislature have the Executive dependent on them, they can perpetuate support their usurpations by the influence of tax-gatherers other officers, by fleets armies c. Cabal corruption are attached to that mode of election: so also is ineligibility a second time. Hence the Executive is interested in Courting popularity in the Legislature by sacrificing his Executive rights; then he can go into that Body, after the expiration of his Executive Office, and enjoy there the fruits of his policy. To these considerations he added that rivals would be continually intriguing to oust the President from his place. To guard against all these evils he moved that the President “shall be chosen by Electors to be chosen by the people of the several States” Mr Carrol 2ded. him on the question 〈it passed in the negative〉
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N— J— ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. no— Va. ay. N— C— no— S— C— no— Geo— no. [Ayes — 5; noes — 6.]
Mr. Dayton moved to postpone the consideration of the two last clauses of sect. 1. art. X. which was disagreed to without a count of the States.
Mr Broome moved to refer the two clauses to a Committee of a Member from each State. on the question, 〈it failed the States being equally divided.〉
N— H— no— Mas— no. Ct. divd. N— J— ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. ay— Va. ay. N— C— no. S. C. no— Geo. no. [Ayes — 5; noes — 5; divided — 1.]
On the question taken on the first part of Mr. Govr Morris’s Motion to wit “shall be chosen by electors” as an abstract question, 〈it failed the States being equally divided —〉
N— H— no. Mas. abst. Ct. divd. 〈N. Jersey ay〉 9 Pa ay. Del. ay. Md. divd. Va ay— N— C— no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 4; noes — 4; divided — 2; absent — 1.]
The consideration of the remaining clauses of sect 1. art X. was then posponed till tomorrow at the instance of the Deputies of New Jersey —
Sect. 2. Art: X 10 being taken up. the word information was transposed inserted after “Legislature” On motion of Mr Govr Morris, “he may” was struck out, “and” inserted before “recommend” in the clause 2d. sect— 2d art: X. in order to make it the duty of the President to recommend, thence prevent umbrage or cavil at his doing it —
Mr. Sherman objected to the sentence “and shall appoint officers in all cases not otherwise provided for by this Constitution”. He admitted it to be proper that many officers in the Executive Department should be so appointed — but contended that many ought not, as general officers in the Army in time of peace c. Herein lay the corruption in G. Britain. If the Executive can model the army, he may set up an absolute Government; taking advantage of the close of a war and an army commanded by his creatures. James 2d. was not obeyed by his officers because they had been appointed by his predecessors not by himself. He moved to insert “or by law” after the word “Constitution”.
On Motion of Mr Madison “officers” was struck out and “to offices” inserted, in order to obviate doubts that he might appoint officers without a previous creation of the offices by the Legislature.
On the question for inserting “or by law as moved by Mr. Sherman
N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pena. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. absent. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 1; noes — 9; absent — 1.]
Mr. Dickinson moved to strike out the words “and shall appoint to offices in all cases not otherwise provided for by this Constitution” and insert — “and shall appoint to all offices established by this Constitution, except in cases herein otherwise provided for, and to all offices which may hereafter be created by law.”
Mr Randolph observed that the power of appointments was a formidable one both in the Executive Legislative hands — and suggested whether the Legislature should not be left at liberty to refer appointments in some cases, to some State Authority.
Mr. Dickenson’s motion, 〈it passed in the affirmative〉
N. H. no. Mas— no— Ct ay— N— J— ay. Pa. ay— Del. no. Md ay. Va. ay— N— C. abst. S. C no. Geo— 〈ay〉 [Ayes — 6; noes — 4; absent — 1.] 11
Mr. Dickinson then moved to annex to his last amendment “except where by law the appointment shall be vested in the Legislatures or Executives of the several States”. Mr. Randolph 2ded. the motion
Mr. Wilson— If this be agreed to it will soon be a standing instruction from the State Legislatures to pass no law creating offices, unless the appts be referred to them.
Mr. Sherman objected to “Legislatures” in the motion, which was struck out by consent of the movers.
Mr. Govr. Morris — This would be putting it in the power of the States to say, “You shall be viceroys but we will be viceroys over you” —
The motion was negatived without a Count of the States — 12
Ordered 〈unaminously〉 13 that the order respecting the adjournment at 4 oClock be repealed, that in future the House assemble at 10 OC. adjourn at 3 oC. 14
Adjourned
2 and 3 sect. struck out. The 10 article give rise to various debate. Amended to read that the election of the president of the U. S. be by joint ballot. It was moved to add each State having one vote — Conn: Jer. Mar. Georg. 15 ay. N. H. Mass. Penns. Vir. N. C. and S. C. no. It was moved that the president be elected by the people 16 3 states affirm — 7 neg.
On what respects his ineligibility Gov. Morris observed.
That in the strength of the Executive would be found the strength of America. Ineligibility operates to weaken or destroy the constitution.
The president will have no interest beyond his period of service.
He will for peace and emolument to himself and friends agree to acts that will encrease the power and agrandize the bodies which elect him.
The legislature will swallow up the whole powers of the constitution; but to do this effectually they must possess the Executive. This will lead them to tempt him, and the shortness of his reign will subject him to be tempted and overcome.
The legislature has great and various appointments in their power. This will create them an extensive influence which may be so used as to put it out of the power of the Executive to prevent them from arriving at supremacy.
On the other hand give the Executive a chance of being re-chosen and he will hold his prerogatives with all possible tenaciousness.
postponed the question.
Proceeded, and made some amendments to the 2 sect. Adjourned when the question was going to be put whether the legislature might enable the State Executives or legislatures to appoint officers to certain offices. 17
It was moved and seconded to postpone the first clause of the first section 7 article, in order to take up the following amendment
“all debts contracted and engagements entered into, by or under the authority of Congress shall be as valid against the United States under this constitution as under the confederation.”
which passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the amendment
it passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 10; noes — 1.] 1
It was moved and seconded to add the following clause to the first clause of the 1st sect. 7 article
“for the payment of said debts and for the defraying the expences that shall be incurred for the common defence and general welfare”
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 1; noes — 10.]
It was moved and seconded to amend the report of the Committee of eleven, entered on the Journal of the 24th instant as follows
to strike out the words “the year eighteen hundred” and to insert the words “the year eighteen hundred and eight”
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 7; noes — 4.]
It was moved and seconded to amend the first clause of the report to read
The importation of Slaves into such of the States as shall permit the same shall not be prohibited by the Legislature of the U. S. until the year 1808.
which passed in the negative 2
On the question to agree to the first part of the report as amended, namely.
“The migration or importation of such persons as the several States now existing shall think proper to admit shall not be prohibited by the Legislature prior to the year 1808.”
it passed in the affirmative. [Ayes — 7; noes — 4.]
It was moved and seconded to strike out the words “average of the duties laid on Imports” and to insert the words
“common impost on articles not enumerated”
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to amend the second clause of the report to read
“but a tax or duty may be imposed on such importation not exceeding ten dollars for each person”
which passed in the affirmative.
On the question to agree to the second clause of the report as amended
it passed in the affirmative
On the question to postpone the farther consideration of the report
it passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to amend the 8th article to read
“This Constitution and the Laws of the United States, which shall be made in pursuance thereof and all treaties made or which shall be made under the authority of the United-States shall be the supreme law of the several States, and of their citizens and inhabitants; and the Judges in the several States shall be bound thereby in their decisions; any thing in the constitutions or laws of the several States to the contrary notwithstanding”
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to agree to the following propositions
“The Legislature of the United States shall not oblige Vessels belonging to Citizens thereof, or to foreigners, to enter or pay duties, or imposts in any other State than in that to which they may be bound, or to clear out in any other than the State in which their cargoes may be laden on board — Nor shall any privilege, or immunity, be granted to any vessels on entering, clearing out, or paying duties or imposts in one State in preference to another”
“Should it be judged expedient by the Legislature of the United States that one or more ports for collecting duties or imposts other than those ports of entrance and clearance already established by the respective States should be established, the Legislature of the U. S. shall signify the same to the Executive of the respective States ascertaining the number of such ports judged necessary; to be laid by the said Executives before the Legislatures of the States at their next session; and the legislature of the U. S. shall not have the power of fixing or establishing the particular ports for collecting duties or imposts in any State except the Legislature of such State shall neglect to fix and establish the same during their first session to be held after such notification by the legislature of the U. S. to the executive of such State.
“all duties, imposts, and excises, prohibitions or restraints laid or made by the Legislature of the U. S. shall be uniform and equal throughout the United States”
It was moved and seconded to refer the above propositions to a Committee of a Member from each State
which passed in the affirmative
and a Committee was appointed by ballot of the honorable Mr Langdon, Mr Gorham, Mr Sherman, Mr Dayton, Mr Fitz Simmons, Mr Read, Mr Carrol Mr Mason, Mr Williamson, Mr Butler and Mr Few.
[To agree to Mr Sherman’s amendment Ayes — 3; noes — 6; divided — 1.] 3
It was moved and seconded to add the words
“and other public Ministers” after the word “Ambassadors” 2 sect. 10 article
which passed in the affirmative. [Ayes — 10; noes — o.]
It was moved and seconded to strike the words “and may correspond with the supreme executives of the several States” out of ye 2 sect. 10 article
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 9; noes — 1.]
[—————Ayes — 1; noes — 9.] 4
It was moved and seconded to insert the words “except in cases of impeachment” after the word “pardons” 2 sect. 10 article
which passed in the affirmative
On the question to agree to the following clause
“but his pardon shall not be pleadable in bar”
it passed in the negative [Ayes — 4; noes — 6.]
The House adjourned.
New Hampshire | Massachusetts | Rhode Island | Connecticut | New York | New Jersey | Pennsylvania | Delaware | Maryland | Virginia | No. Carolina | So. Carolina | Georgia | Questions | ayes | noes | divided | |
[365] | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | To agree to Mr Randolph’s amendment to the 1st clause, 1st section, 7 article. | |||||
[366] | no | no | aye | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | To agree to the amendmt of ye 1st clause 1 sect. 7 article | 1 | 10 | |||
[367] | aye | aye | aye | no | no | no | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | To agree to the amendment of 20 years. | 7 | 4 | |||
[368] | aye | aye | aye | no | no | no | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | To agree to the first clause of ye report of eleven entd on the journal 24 instt | 7 | 4 | |||
[369] | no | no | aye | no | no | dd | aye | no | no | aye | to agree to Mr Sherman’s amendment | ||||||
[370] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | To add the words other pub: Ministers | ||||||
[371] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | To strike out the words “correspond with the Executives” | 9 | 1 | ||||
[372] | no | no | aye | no | no | no | no | no | no | no | 1 | 9 | |||||
[373] | aye | no | no | no | no | aye | no | aye | aye | no | but his pardon shall not be pleadable in bar | 4 | 6 |
The 1st. clause of 1 sect. of art: VII being reconsidered 5
Col. Mason objected to the term, “ shall ” — fullfil the engagements discharge the debts c as too strong. It may be impossible to comply with it. The Creditors should be kept in the same plight. They will in one respect be necessarily and properly in a better. The Government will be more able to pay them. The use of the term shall will beget speculations and increase the pestilent practice of stock-jobbing. There was a great distinction between original creditors those who purchased fraudulently of the ignorant and distressed. He did not mean to include those who have bought Stock in open market. He was sensible of the difficulty of drawing the line in this case, but He did not wish to preclude the attempt. Even fair purchasers, at 4, 5, 6, 8 for 1 did not stand on the same footing with the first Holders, supposing them not to be blameable. The interest they receive even in paper is equal to their purchase money. What he particularly wished was to leave the door open for buying up the securities, which he thought would be precluded by the term “shall” as requiring nominal payment, which was not inconsistent with his ideas of public faith. He was afraid also the word “ shall, ” might extend to all the old continental paper.
Mr Langdon wished to do no more than leave the Creditors in statu quo.
Mr. Gerry said that for himself he had no interest in the question being not possessed of more of the securities than would, by the interest, pay his taxes. He would observe however that as the public had received the value of the literal amount, they ought to pay that value to some body. The frauds on the soldiers ought to have been foreseen. These poor ignorant people could not but part with their securities. There are other creditors who will part with any thing rather than be cheated of the capital of their advances. The interest of the States he observed was different on this point, some having more, others less than their proportion of the paper. Hence the idea of a scale for reducing its value had arisen. If the public faith would admit, of which he was not clear, he would not object to a revision of the debt so far as to compel restitution to the ignorant distressed, who have been defrauded. As to Stock-jobbers he saw no reason for the censures thrown on them — They keep up the value of the paper. Without them there would be no market.
Mr. Butler said he meant neither to increase nor diminish the security of the Creditors.
Mr. Randolph moved to postpone the clause in favor of the following “All debts contracted engagements entered into, by or under the authority of Congs. shall be as valid agst the U. States under this constitution as under the Confederation”
Docr Johnson. The debts are debts of the U— S— of the great Body of America. Changing the Government cannot change the obligation of the U— S— which devolves of course on the New Government. Nothing was in his opinion necessary to be said. If any thing, it should be a mere declaration as moved by Mr. Randolph.
Mr. Govr. Morris, said he never had become a public Creditor that he might urge with more propriety the compliance with public faith. He had always done so and always would, and preferr’d the term “ shall ” as the most explicit. As to buying up the debt, the term “ shall ” was not inconsistent with it, if provision be first made for paying the interest: if not, such an expedient was a mere evasion. He was content to say nothing as the New Government would be bound of course — but would prefer the clause with the term “ shall ”, because it would create many friends to the plan.
On Mr. Randolph’s Motion
N— H— ay— Mas. ay. Ct ay— N. J. ay— Pa. no Del. ay— 〈Maryd. ay〉 6 Va. ay— N. C— ay— S. C. ay Geo. ay— [Ayes — 10; noes — 1.]
Mr. Sherman thought it necessary to connect with the clause for laying taxes duties c an express provision for the object of the old debts c — and moved to add to the 1st. clause of 1st. sect— of art VII “for the payment of said debts and for the defraying the expences that shall be incurred for the common defence and general welfare”.
The proposition, as being unnecessary was disagreed to, Connecticut alone, being in the affirmative.
The Report of the Committee of eleven (see friday the 24th. instant) being taken up, 7
Genl Pinkney moved to strike out the words “the year eighteen hundred” 〈as the year limiting the importation of slaves,〉 and to insert the words “the year eighteen hundred and eight”
Mr. Ghorum 2ded. the motion
Mr. Madison. Twenty years will produce all the mischief that can be apprehended from the liberty to import slaves. So long a term will be more dishonorable to the National character than to say nothing about it in the Constitution.
On the motion; 〈which passed in the affirmative.〉
N— H— ay. Mas. ay— Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del— no. Md. ay. Va. no. N— C. ay. S— C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 7; noes — 4.]
Mr. Govr. Morris was for making the clause read at once, “importation of slaves into N. Carolina, S— Carolina Georgia”. 〈shall not be prohibited c.〉 This he said would be most fair and would avoid the ambiguity by which, under the power with regard to naturalization, the liberty reserved to the States might be defeated. He wished it to be known also that this part of the Constitution was a compliance with those States. If the change of language however should be objected to by the members from those States, he should not urge it. 8
Col: Mason was not against using the term “slaves” but agst naming N— C— S— C. Georgia, lest it should give offence to the people of those States.
Mr Sherman liked a description better than the terms proposed, which had been declined by the old Congs were not pleasing to some people. Mr. Clymer concurred with Mr. Sherman
Mr. Williamson said that both in opinion practice he was, against slavery; but thought it more in favor of humanity, from a view of all circumstances, to let in S— C Georgia on those terms, than to exclude them from the Union —
Mr. Govr. Morris withdrew his motion.
Mr. Dickenson wished the clause to be confined to the States which had not themselves prohibited the importation of slaves, and for that purpose moved to amend the clause so as to read “The importation of slaves into such of the States as shall permit the same shall not be prohibited by the Legislature of the U— S— until the year 1808”. — which was agreed to nem: cont: *
The first part of the report was then agreed to, amended as follows. “The migration or importation of such persons as the several States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Legislature prior to the year 1808.” N. H. Mas. Con. Md. N. C. S. C: Geo: . . . . . ay
N. J. Pa. Del. Virga . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . no
[Ayes — 7; noes — 4.] 10
Mr. Baldwin in order to restrain more explicitly define “the average duty” moved to strike out of the 2d. part the words “average of the duties laid on imports” and insert “common impost on articles not enumerated” which was agreed to nem: cont:
Mr. Sherman was agst. this 2d part, as acknowledging men to be property, by taxing them as such under the character of slaves,
Mr. King Mr. Langdon considered this as the price of the 1st part.
Genl. Pinkney admitted that it was so.
Col: Mason. Not to tax, will be equivalent to a bounty on the importation of slaves.
Mr. Ghorum thought that Mr Sherman should consider the duty, not as implying that slaves are property, but as a discouragement to the importation of them.
Mr Govr, Morris remarked that as the clause now stands it implies that the Legislature may tax freemen imported. 11
Mr. Sherman in answer to Mr. Ghorum observed that the smallness of the duty shewed revenue to be the object, not the discouragement of the importation.
Mr. Madison thought it wrong to admit in the Constitution the idea that there could be property in men. The reason of duties did not hold, as slaves are not like merchandise, consumed. c
Col. Mason (in answr. to Govr. Morris) the provision as it stands was necessary for the case of Convicts in order to prevent the introduction of them.
It was finally agreed nem: contrad: to make the clause read “but a tax or duty may be imposed on such importation not exceeding ten dollars for each person”, and then the 2d. part as amended was agreed to.
Sect 5— art— VII was agreed to nem: con: as reported. 12
Sect. 6. art. VII. in the Report was, postponed.
On motion of Mr. Madison 2ded. by Mr Govr Morris art VIII was reconsidered and after the words “all treaties made,” were inserted nem: con: the words “or which shall be made” This insertion was meant to obviate all doubt concerning the force of treaties prëexisting, by making the words “all treaties made” to refer to them, as the words inserted would refer to future treaties.
Mr. Carrol Mr. L. Martin expressed their apprehensions, and the probable apprehensions of their constituents, that under the power of regulating trade the General Legislature, might favor the ports of particular States, by requiring vessels destined to or from other States to enter clear thereat, as vessels belonging or bound to Baltimore, to enter clear at Norfolk c They moved the following proposition
“The Legislature of the U— S. shall not oblige vessels belonging to citizens thereof, or to foreigners, to enter or pay duties or imposts in any other State than in that to which they may be bound, or to clear out in any other than the State in which their cargoes may be laden on board; nor shall any privilege or immunity be granted to any vessels on entering or clearing out or paying duties or imposts in one state in preference to another” 13
Mr Ghorum thought such a precaution unnecessary; that the revenue might be defeated, if vessels could run up long rivers, through the jurisdiction of different States without being required to enter, with the opportunity of landing selling their cargoes by the way.
Mr McHenry Genl Pinkney made the following propositions
“Should it be judged expedient by the Legislature of the U— S— that one or more ports for collecting duties or imposts other than those ports of entrance clearance already established by the respective States, should be established, the Legislature of the U— S— shall signify the same to the Executives of the respective States, ascertaining the number of such ports judged necessary; to be laid by the said Executives before the Legislatures of the States at their next Session; and the Legislature of the U— S— shall not have the power of fixing or establishing the particular ports for collecting duties or imposts in any State, except the Legislature of such State shall neglect to fix and establish the same during their first Session to be held after such notification by the Legislature of the U— S— to the Executive of such State”
“All duties imposts excises, prohibitions or restraints laid or made by the Legislature of the U— S— shall be uniform and equal throughout the U— S—” 14
These several propositions were referred, nem: con: to a committee composed of a member from each State, The committee appointed by ballot were Mr. Langdon, Mr. Ghorum, Mr. Sherman, Mr Dayton, Mr. Fitzimmons, Mr. Read, Mr. Carrol, Mr. Mason, Mr. Williamson, Mr. Butler, Mr. Few.
On The question now taken on Mr. Dickinson motion of yesterday, allowing appointments to offices, to be referred by the Genl. Legislature to the Executives of the several States” as a farther amendment to sect. 2. art. X., 15 the votes were
N. H. no Mas. no. Ct ay. Pa. no— Del. no. Md divided 16 — Va. ay— N— C— no— S. C. no. Geo. ay— [Ayes— 3; noes — 6; divided — 1.]
In amendment of the same section, “other public Ministers” were inserted after “ambassadors”. 17
Mr. Govr Morris moved to strike out of the section — “and may correspond with the supreme Executives of the several States” as unnecessary and implying that he could not correspond with others. Mr. Broome 2ded. him.
On the question
N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay— S. C. ay. Geo— ay. [Ayes — 9; noes — 1.]
“Shall receive ambassadors other public Ministers”. agreed, to nem. con.
Mr. Sherman moved to amend the “power to grant reprieves pardon” so as to read “to grant reprieves until the ensuing session of the Senate, and pardons with consent of the Senate.”
On the question
N— H— no. Mas. no. Ct. ay— Pa no Md. no. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 1; noes — 8.] 18
“except in cases of impeachment” inserted nem: con: after “pardon”
On the question to agree to — “but his pardon shall not be pleadable in bar”
N. H. ay— Mas— no. Ct. no— Pa. no— Del. no. Md. ay. Va. no. N— C— ay— S. C. ay— Geo. no. [Ayes — 4; noes — 6.]
Adjourned
The clause in the 2 sect. X article, “he shall commission all the officers of the U. S. and shall appoint officers in all cases not otherwise provided for by this constitution, was moved to be amended by adding, except where by law the Executive of the several States shall have the power — Amendment negatives. Maryland divided — D. C. and J. against Martin and myself affirm. 19
Moved several propositions to restrict the legislature from giving any preference in duties, or from obliging duties to be collected in a manner injurious to any State, and from establishing new ports of entrance and clerance, unless neglected to be established by the States after application — Opposed by Massachusetts — Mr. Gorahm said it might be very proper to oblige vessels, for example, to stop at Norfolk on account of the better collection of the revenue.
Mr. King thought it improper to deliberate long on such propositions but to take the sense of the house immediately upon them.
I moved to have them committed to a committee consisting of a member from each State. Committed.
Proceeded a little further in the 2 sect.
Mr. C. Pinkney gave notice that he would move that the consent of ¾ of the whole legislature be necessary to the enacting a law respecting the regulation of trade or the formation of a navigation act.
Adjourned to monday.
The Legislature 20 of the United States shall not oblige Vessels belonging to Citizens thereof, or to foreigners to enter or pay duties or imposts in any other State than in that to which they may be bound, or to clear out in any other than the State in which their Cargoes may be laden on board; Nor shall any priviledge, or immunity be granted to any Vessels on entering clearing out or paying duties or imposts in one State in preference to another — Nor shall vessels owned by Citizens of one State have any preference of vessels owned by Citizens of another State.
It was moved and seconded to insert the words “after conviction” after the words “reprieves and pardons” 2 sect. 10 article. — (Motion withdrawn).
It was moved and seconded to amend the clause giving the command of the militia to the executive to read
“and of the militia of the several States when called into the actual service of the United States”
which passed in the affirmative. [Ayes — 6; noes — 2.]
It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the following clause. 2 section. 10 article
“He shall be removed from his office on impeachment by the House of representatives, and conviction in the supreme Court, of treason, bribery, or corruption”
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to postpone the last clause of the 2 section, 10 article.
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to add the following clause to the oath of office to be taken by the supreme Executive
“and will to the best of my judgment and power, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States”
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 7; noes — 1.]
It was moved and seconded to insert the words
“both in Law and Equity” after the words “United States” 1 line, 1 sect, 11th article
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 6; noes — 2.] 1
On the question to agree to the 1st sect. 11 article as amended.
it passed in the affirmative. [Ayes — 6; noes — 2.] 1
It was moved and seconded to add the following clause after the word “behaviour” 2 section. 11 article
“Provided that they may be removed by the Executive on the application by the Senate and House of representatives”
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 1; noes — 7.]
On the question to agree to the 2nd section of the 11 article as reported
it passed in the affirmative 2
It was moved and seconded to insert the words
“encreased or” before the word “diminished” in the 2nd section 11th article.
which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 1; noes — 5; divided — 1.]
It was moved and seconded to add the following words to the 2nd section 11 article
“nor encreased by any act of the Legislature, which shall operate before the expiration of three years after the passing thereof.”
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 2; noes — 5.]
It was moved and seconded to postpone the following clause 3 section 11 article
“to the trial of impeachments of officers of the United States”
which passed in the affirmative.
It was moved and seconded to add the following words after the word “controversies” 3 sect. 11 article
“to which the United States shall be a Party”
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to insert the words “this constitution the” before the word “laws” 2 line 3 sect, 11 article.
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to strike out the words “passed by the Legislature” and to insert after the words “United States” the words “and treaties made or which shall be made under their authority”
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to insert the word “controversies” before the words “between two” or
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to postpone the following clause “in cases of impeachment”
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to insert the words
“the United States or” before the words “a State shall be a party”
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to agree to the following amendment.
In all the other cases beforementioned original jurisdiction shall be in the Courts of the several States but with appeal both as to Law and fact to the courts of the United States, with such exceptions and under such regulations, as the Legislatures shall make.
The last motion being withdrawn,
It was moved and seconded to amend the clause to read
“In cases of impeachment, cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, this jurisdiction shall be original In all the other cases before mentioned it shall be appellate both as to law and fact with such exceptions and under such regulations as the Legislature shall make”
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to add the following clause to the last amendment.
“But in cases in which the United States shall be a Party the jurisdiction shall be original or appellate as the Legislature may direct”
[To strike out the words “original or” Ayes — 6; noes — 2.] 3
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 3; noes — 5.] 4
On the question to reconsider the 3rd section 11 article
it passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to strike out the words
“The jurisdiction of the Supreme Court” and to insert the words “The Judicial Power”
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to strike out the words “this jurisdiction shall be original” and to insert the words “The supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction”
which passed in the affirmative
It was moved and seconded to agree to the following amendment
“In all the other cases before mentioned the judicial power shall be exercised in such manner as the Legislature shall direct”
which passed in the negative [Ayes — 2; noes — 6.] 5
It was moved and seconded to strike out the last clause of the 3rd sect. 11 article
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 8; noes — 0.]
It was moved and seconded to insert the words “both in law and equity” before the word “arising” in the first line, 3rd section, 11 article.
which passed in the affirmative.
It was moved and seconded to insert after the words “between citizens of different States” the words “between Citizens of the same State claiming lands under grants of different States
which passed in the affirmative
The House adjourned
New Hampshire | Massachusetts | Rhode Island | Connecticut | New York | New Jersey | Pennsylvania | Delaware | Maryland | Virginia | No Carolina | So Carolina | Georgia | Questions | ayes | noes | divided | |
[374] | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | no | aye | To amend the clause giving the command of the militia to the Executive. | 6 | 2 | ||||||
[375] | aye | aye | aye | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | To amend the oath of office by the President | 7 | 1 | ||||||
[376] | aye | aye | aye | no | no | aye | aye | aye | To agree to the 2 Sect. 11 art. | 6 | 2 | ||||||
[377] | aye | aye | aye | no | no | aye | aye | aye | |||||||||
[378] | no | aye | no | no | no | no | no | no | To agree to the amendt to ye 2 sect. 11 article | 1 | 7 | ||||||
[379] | no | no | no | no | dd | aye | no | amendt to ye 2 sect. 11 article | 1 | 5 | 1 | ||||||
[380] | no | no | no | no | aye | aye | no | amendt to ye 2 sect. 11 article | 2 | 5 | |||||||
[381] | aye | aye | no | no | aye | aye | aye | aye | To strike out the words “original or” | 6 | 2 | ||||||
[382] | aye | no | aye | aye | no | no | no | no | amendment to 3 sect 11 article | 3 | 5 | ||||||
[383] | no | no | no | aye | no | aye | no | no | amendmt 3 sect. 11 art. | 2 | 6 | ||||||
[384] | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | aye | To strike out the last clause 3 sect |
Art X. sect. 2. being resumed, 6
Mr. L. Martin moved to insert the words “after conviction” after the words “reprieves and pardons”
Mr. Wilson objected that pardon before conviction might be necessary in order to obtain the testimony of accomplices. He stated the case of forgeries in which this might particularly happen. — Mr L. Martin withdrew his motion.
Mr. Sherman moved to amend the clause giving the Executive the command of the Militia, so as to read “and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual service of the U— S —” and on the Question
N— H. ay. Mas. abst. Ct. ay. N— J. abst Pa ay. Del. no. Md ay. Va. ay. N— C. abst. S. C— no. Geo— ay, [Ayes — 6; noes — 2; absent — 3.] 7
The clause for removing the President on impeachment by the House of Reps and conviction in the supreme Court, of Treason, Bribery or corruption, was postponed nem: con: at the instance of Mr. Govr. Morris, who thought the Tribunal an improper one, particularly, if the first judge was to be of the privy Council.
Mr. Govr. Morris objected also to the President of the Senate being provisional successor to the President, and suggested a designation of the Chief Justice.
Mr. Madison added as a ground of objection that the Senate might retard the appointment of a President in order to carry points whilst the revisionary power was in the President of their own body, but suggested that the Executive powers during a vacancy, be administered by the persons composing the Council to the President.
Mr Williamson suggested that the Legislature ought to have power to provide for occasional successors. moved that the last clause (of 2 sect. X art:) 〈relating to a provisional successor to the President〉 be postponed.
Mr Dickinson 2ded. the postponement. remarking that it was too vague. What is the extent of the term “disability” who is to be the judge of it?
The postponement was agreed to nem: con:
Col: Mason Mr. Madison, moved to add to the oath to be taken by the supreme Executive “and will to the best of my judgment and power preserve protect and defend the Constitution of the U. S.”
Mr. Wilson thought the general provision for oaths of office, in a subsequent place, rendered the amendment unnecessary —
On the question
N. H. ay— Mas— abst Ct ay— Pa ay. Del. no. Md. ay. Va. ay— N. C. abst S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 7; noes — 1; absent — 2.]
Art: XI being taken up. 8
Docr. Johnson suggested that the judicial power ought to extend to equity as well as law — and moved to insert the words “both in law and equity” after the words “U. S.” in the 1st line of sect 1.
Mr. Read objected to vesting these powers in the same Court—
On the question
N. H. ay. 〈Mas. absent〉 Ct ay. 〈N. J. abst〉 P. ay— Del. no. Md no. Virga. ay. 〈N— C— abst.〉 S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 6; noes — 2; absent — 3.]
On the question to agree to Sect. 1. art. XI. as amended
N— H— ay— 〈Mas. abst.〉 Ct. ay— Pa ay— 〈N— J— abst〉 Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. 〈N— C— abst〉 S. C. ay Geo. ay. [Ayes — 6; noes — 2; absent — 3.]
Mr. Dickinson moved as an amendment to sect. 2— art XI 9 after the words “good behavior” the words “provided that they may be removed by the Executive on the application 〈by〉 the Senate and House of Representatives.”
Mr. Gerry 2ded. the motion
Mr Govr. Morris thought it a contradiction in terms to say that the Judges should hold their offices during good behavior, and yet be removeable without a trial. Besides it was fundamentally wrong to subject Judges to so arbitrary an authority.
Mr. Sherman saw no contradiction or impropriety if this were made part of the Constitutional regulation of the Judiciary establishment. He observed that a like provision was contained in the British Statutes.
Mr. Rutlidge: If the supreme Court is to judge between the U. S. and particular States, this alone is an insuperable objection to the motion.
Mr. Wilson considered such a provision in the British Government as less dangerous than here, the House of Lords House of Commons being less likely to concur on the same occasions. Chief Justice Holt, he remarked, had successively offended by his independent conduct, both houses of Parliament. Had this happened at the same time, he would have been ousted. The Judges would be in a bad situation if made to depend on every gust of faction which might prevail in the two branches of our Govt
Mr. Randolph opposed the motion as weakening too much the independence of the Judges.
Mr Dickinson was not apprehensive that the Legislature composed of different branches constructed on such different principles, would improperly unite for the purpose of displacing a Judge—
On the question for agreeing to Mr. Dickinson’s Motion
N. H. no. 〈Mas. abst〉 Ct. ay. 〈N. J. abst〉 Pa. no. Del. no. Md no. Va. no 〈N. C. abst〉. S— C— no— Geo— no. [Ayes — 1; noes — 7; absent — 3.]
〈On the question on Sect. 2 art: XI as reported. Del. Maryd. only no—〉 10
Mr. Madison Mr. McHenry moved to reinstate the words “increased or” before the word “diminished” in the 2d. Sect: art XI.
Mr. Govr. Morris opposed it for reasons urged by him on a former occasion—
Col: Mason contended strenuously for the motion. There was no weight he said in the argument drawn from changes in the value of the metals, because this might be provided for by an increase of salaries so made as not to affect persons in office, and this was the only argument on which much stress seemed to have been laid.
Genl. Pinkney. The importance of the Judiciary will require men of the first talents: large salaries will therefore be necessary, larger than the U. S. can allow in the first instance. He was not satisfied with the expedient mentioned by Col: Mason. He did not think it would have a good effect or a good appearance, for new Judges to come in with higher salaries than the old ones.
Mr Govr Morris said the expedient might be evaded therefore amounted to nothing. Judges might resign, then be re-appointed to increased salaries.
On the question
N. H. no— Ct no. Pa no. Del. no— Md. divd Va ay— S. C. no— Geo. abst. 〈also Masts— N. J. N— C—〉 [Ayes — 1; noes — 5; divided — 1; absent — 4.]
Mr. Randolph Mr. Madison then moved to add the following words to sect 2. art XI. “nor increased by any Act of the Legislature which shall operate before the expiration of three years after the passing thereof”
On this question
N. H. no. Ct. no— Pa. no. Del. no. Md ay— Va ay— S. C. no. Geo— abst 〈also Mas. N. J. N. C.〉 [Ayes — 2; noes — 5; absent — 4.]
Sect. 3— art. XI. 11 being taken up— the following clause was postponed — viz. “to the trial of impeachments of officers of the U. S.” by which the jurisdiction of the supreme Court was extended to such cases.
Mr Madison Mr. Govr. Morris moved to insert after the word “controversies” the words “to which the U— S— shall be a party” — which was agreed to nem: con:
Docr. Johnson moved to insert the words “this Constitution and the” before the word “laws”
Mr Madison doubted whether it was not going too far to extend the jurisdiction of the Court generally to cases arising Under the Constitution, whether it ought not to be limited to cases of a Judiciary Nature. The right of expounding the Constitution in cases not of this nature ought not to be given to that Department.
The motion of Docr. Johnson was agreed to nem: con: it being generally supposed that the jurisdiction given was constructively limited to cases of a Judiciary nature—
On motion of Mr Rutlidge, the words “passed by the Legislature” were struck out, and after the words “U. S” were inserted nem. con: the words “and treaties made or which shall be made under their authority” — conformably to a preceding amendment in another place.
The clause “in cases of impeachment”, was postponed.
Mr. Govr. Morris wished to know what was meant by the words “In all the cases before mentioned it (jurisdiction) shall be appellate with such exceptions c,” whether it extended to matters of fact as well as law — and to cases of Common law as well as Civil law.
Mr. Wilson. The Committee he believed meant facts as well as law Common as well as Civil law. The jurisdiction of the federal Court of Appeals had he said been so construed. 12
Mr. Dickinson moved to add after the word “appellate” the words “both as to law fact which was agreed to nem: con:
Mr. Madison 13 Mr. Govr. Morris moved to strike out the beginning of the 3d sect. “The jurisdiction of the supreme Court” to insert the words “the Judicial power” which was agreed to nem: con:
The following motion was disagreed to, to wit to insert “In all the other cases before mentioned the Judicial power shall be exercised in such manner as the Legislature shall direct” 〈Del. Virga ay
N. H Con. P. M. S. C. G no〉 [Ayes — 2; noes — 6.] 14
On a question for striking out the last sentence of sect. 3. “The Legislature may assign c—”
N. H. ay— Ct ay. Pa ay. Del— ay— Md ay— Va ay— S— C. ay— Geo. ay. [Ayes — 8; noes — 0.]
Mr. Sherman moved to insert after the words “between Citizens of different States” the words, “between Citizens of the same State claiming lands under grants of different States” — according to the provision in the 9th. art: of the Confederation — which was agreed to nem: con: 15
Adjourned 16
Amended the Presidential oath of office — made some other amendments — postponed what follows from the oath to the end.
Agreed to the 1. 2 and 3 sect. of the XI article with amendments.
The judicial power of the United States shall be vested in one Supreme Court and in such Courts of Admiralty as Congress shall establish in any of the States. And also in Courts of Admiralty to be established in such of the States as Congress shall direct.
The jurisdiction of the supreme courts shall extend to all cases in law and equity arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States and treaties made or which shall be made under their authority; to all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls; to all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction; to controversies to which the United States shall be a party, to controversies between two or more States; between citizens of the same State claiming lands of different States, and between a State and the citizens thereof and foreign States, citizens or subjects.
In all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and those in which a State shall be a party, and suits between persons claiming lands under grants of different States the Supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction, and in all the other cases before mentioned the Supreme Courts shall have appellate jurisdiction as to law only, except in cases of equity and admiralty and maritime jurisdiction in which last mentioned cases the Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction, both as to law and fact.
In all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction, the Admiralty Courts appointed by Congress shall have original jurisdiction, and an appeal may be made to the Supreme Court of Congress for any sum and in such manner as Congress may be law direct.
In all other cases not otherwise provided for the Superior State Courts shall have original jurisdiction, and an appeal may be made to the Supreme federal Court in all cases where the subject in controversy or the decree or judgment of the State court shall be of the value of one thousand dollars and in cases of less value the appeal shall be to the High Court of Appeals, Court of Errors or other Supreme Court of the State where the suit shall be tried.
The trial of all crimes, except in case of impeachment shall be in the Superior Court of that State where the offence shall have been committed in such manner as the Congress shall by law direct except that the trial shall be by a jury. But when the crime shall not have been committed within any one of the United States the trial shall be at such place and in such manner as Congress shall by law direct, except that such trial shall also be by a jury.
The honorable Mr Sherman from the Committee to whom were referred several propositions entered on the Journal of the 25 instant informed the House that the Committee were prepared to report — The report was then delivered in at the Secretary’s table, was read, and is as follows.
The Committee report that the following be inserted after the 4 clause of the 7 section
“Nor shall any regulation of commerce or revenue give preference to the ports of one State over those of another or oblige Vessels bound to or from any State to enter, clear, or pay duties in another.
And all tonnage, duties, imposts, and excises, laid by the “Legislature shall be uniform throughout the United States”
It was moved and seconded to strike out the words
“it shall be appellate” and to insert the words “the Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction” 3 sect. 11 article
which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 9; noes — 1.] 1
It was moved and seconded to amend the 4th section of the 11th article to read as follows.
“The trial of all crimes (except in cases of impeachment) shall be by Jury — and such trial shall be held in the State where the said crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State then the trial shall be at such place or places as the Legislature may direct.”
which passed in the affirmative