Mr Govr Morris. such a distrust is inconsistent with all Govt.

Mr. 〈Madison〉 supposed that a central place for the Seat of Govt. was so just and wd. be so much insisted on by the H. of Representatives, that though a law should 〈be made requisite for〉 11 the purpose, it could would be attained. The necessity of a central residence of the Govt wd be much greater under the new than old Govt The members of the 〈new〉 Govt wd. be more numerous. They would be taken more from the interior parts of the States: they wd. not, like members of 〈ye present〉 Congs. come so often from the distant States by water. As the powers objects of the new Govt. would be far greater 〈yn. heretofore〉, more private individuals wd. have business calling them to the seat of it, and it was more necessary that the Govt should be in that position from which it could contemplate, with the most equal eye, and sympathize most equally with, every part of the nation. These considerations he supposed would extort a removal even if a law were made necessary. But in order to quiet suspicions both within without doors, it might not be amiss to authorize the 2 Houses by a concurrent vote to adjourn at their first meeting to the most proper place, and to require thereafter, the sanction of a law to their removal. 〈The motion was accordingly moulded into the following form: 12 “the Legislature shall at their first assembling determine on a place at which their future sessions shall be held; neither House shall afterwards, during the session of the House of Reps. without the consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor shall they adjourn to any other place than such as shall have been fixt by law”〉

Mr. Gerry thought it would be wrong to let the Presidt check the will of the 〈2〉 Houses on this subject 〈at all.〉

Mr Williamson supported the ideas of Mr. Spaight

Mr Carrol was actuated by the same apprehensions

Mr. Mercer. it will serve no purpose to require the two Houses at their first Meeting to fix on a place. They will never agree.

After some further expressions from others denoting an apprehension that the seat of Govt. might be continued at an improper place if a law should be made necessary to a removal, and 〈the〉 motion 〈above stated with another〉 for recommitting the section 〈had been〉 negatived, the Section was left in the shape it 〈which it was reported, as to this point. The words “during the session of the legislature were prefixed to the 8th section — and the last sentence “But this regulation shall not extend to the Senate when it shall exercise the powers mentioned in the article” struck out. The 8th. section as amended was then agreed to.〉 13

Mr. Randolph moved according to notice to reconsider Art: IV: Sect. 5. concerning money-bills which had been struck out. He argued 14 1. that he had not wished for this privilege whilst a proportional Representation in the Senate was in contemplation. but since an equality had been fixed in that house, the large States would require this compensation at least. 2. that it would make the plan more acceptable to the people, because they will consider the Senate as the more aristocratic body, and will expect that the usual guards agst its influence be provided according to the example in G. Britain. 3. the privilege will give some advantage to the House of Reps. if it extends to the originating only — but still more, if it restrains the Senate 〈from〉 amend〈g〉 15 4. he called on the smaller States to concur in the measure, as the condition by which alone the compromise had entitled them to an equality in the Senate. He signified that he should propose instead of the original Section, a clause specifying that the bills in question should be for the purpose of Revenue, in order to repel ye. objection agst. the extent of the words “ raising money, ” which might happen incidentally, and that the Senate should not so amend or alter as to increase or diminish the sum; in order to obviate the inconveniences urged agst. a restriction of the Senate to a simple affirmative or negative.

Mr. Williamson 2ded. the motion

Mr. Pinkney was sorry to oppose the opportunity gentlemen asked to have the question again opened for discussion, but as he considered it a mere waste of time he could not bring himself to consent to it. He said that notwithstanding what had been said as to the compromise, he always considered this section as making no part of it. The rule of Representation in the 1st. branch was the true condition of that in the 2d. branch. — Several others spoke for agst the reconsideration, but without going into the merits — on the Question to reconsider

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. * Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. divd. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 9; noes — 1; divided — 1.] — Monday was then assigned —

Adj’d. 16

McHENRY
Augt. 11.

Sect. 7 agreed to after expunging the words “when it shall be acting in a legislative capacity” and inserting after the words “publish them” except such parts as in their judgement require secrecy —

After much debate agreed to reconsider on monday the 5 sect. of the 4 article.

MONDAY, AUGUST 13, 1787.

JOURNAL
Monday August 13. 1787.

It was moved and seconded to strike out the word “seven” and to insert the word “four” in the 2nd sect. of the 4 article It was moved and seconded to strike out the word “seven” and to insert the word “nine” in the 2nd sect. of the 4 article It was moved and seconded to strike out the words “shall have been a citizen of the United States for at least seven years before his election” and to insert between the words “an” and “inhabitant” the words “Citizen and” in the 2nd sect. of the 4 article

which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.] 1

On the question to agree to the amendment of “nine”

it passed in the negative. [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]

On the question to agree to the amendment of “four”

it passed in the negative. [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]

It was moved and seconded to add the following clause to the 2nd sect. of the 4 article, namely,

“Provided always that the above limitation of seven years shall not be construed to affect the rights of those who are now Citizens of the United States”

which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 5; noes — 6.] 2

It was moved and seconded to strike out the word “seven” and to insert the word “five” in the 2nd sect. of the 4. article

which passed in the negative [Ayes — 3; noes — 7; divided — 1.]

On the question to agree to the 2nd sect. of the 4. article as formerly amended

it passed in the affirmative.

On the question shall the word “nine” in the 3rd sect. of the 5. article stand part of the said section

it passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 8; noes — 3.]

[To adjourn. — Ayes — 5; noes — 5; divided — 1.] 3

It was moved and seconded to amend the 5. sect of the 4. article to read as follows, namely,

“all bills for raising money for the purposes of revenue, or for appropriating the same, shall originate in the House of representatives; and shall not be so altered or amended by the Senate, as to encrease or diminish the sum to be raised, or change the mode of raising or the objects of it’s appropriation”

which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.] 4

On the question to agree to the 5 sect. of the 4. article as reported

it passed in the negative. [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]

[last clause 5 section 4. article Ayes — 1; noes — 10.] 5

And then the House adjourned till to-morrow at 11 o’Clock A. M.

D ETAIL OF A YES AND N OES
New Hampshire Massachusetts Rhode Island Connecticut New York New Jersey Pennsylvania Delaware Maryland Virginia North Carolina South Carolina Georgia Questions Ayes Noes Divided
[281] no no aye no aye no aye aye no no no On Mr Hamilton’s amendment of the 2nd sect. of the 4 article 4 7
[282] aye no no no no no no no no aye aye To strike out the word “seven” and to insert the word “nine” 2 sect. 4 art. 3 8
[283] no no aye no no no aye aye no no no To agree to the amendmt of “four” 2 sect. 4 article. 3 8
[284] no no aye aye aye no aye aye no no no To agree to the Proviso offered to ye 2 sect of the 4 art. by Mr. G. Morris. 5 6
[285] no no aye no dd no aye aye no no no instead of the word “seven” to insert “five 3 7 1
[286] aye aye no aye no aye no aye aye aye aye shall the word nine in the 3rd sect of the 5 art: remain. 8 3
[287] dd aye aye no aye aye aye no no no no To adjourn.— 5 5 1
[288] aye aye no no no no no aye aye no no To agree to the first clause of Mr Randolph’s proposition for reinstating the 5 Section 4 article 4 7
[289] aye aye no no no no no no aye no no To agree to the 5 sect. 4 art. as reported 3 8
[290] no aye no no no no no no no no no last clause 5 section 4. article 1 10

MADISON
Monday. Augst. 13. In Convention

Art. IV. Sect. 2. reconsidered — 6

Mr. Wilson Mr. Randolph moved to strike out “7 years” and insert “4 years,” as the requisite term of Citizenship to qualify for the House of Reps. Mr. Wilson said it was very proper the electors should govern themselves by this consideration; but unnecessary improper that the Constitution should chain them down to it.

Mr. Gerry wished that in future the eligibility might be confined to Natives. Foreign powers will intermeddle in our affairs, and spare no expence to influence them. Persons having foreign attachments will be sent among us insinuated into our councils, in order to be made instruments for their purposes. Every one knows the vast sums laid out in Europe for secret services — He was not singular in these ideas. A great many of the most influential men in Massts. reasoned in the same manner.

Mr. Williamson moved to insert 9 years instead of seven. He wished this Country to acquire as fast as possible national habits. Wealthy emigrants do more harm by their luxurious examples, than good, by the money, they bring with them.

Col. Hamilton was in general agst. embarrassing the Govt. with minute restrictions. There was on one side the possible danger that had been suggested — on the other side, the advantage of encouraging foreigners was obvious admitted. Persons in Europe of moderate fortunes will be fond of coming here where they will be on a level with the first Citizens. He moved that the section be so altered as to require merely Citizenship inhabitancy. The right of determining the rule of naturalization will then leave a discretion to the Legislature on this subject which will answer every purpose.

Mr 〈Madison〉 seconded the motion. He wished to maintain the character of liberality which had been professed in all the Constitutions publications of America. He wished to invite foreigners of merit republican principles among us. America was indebted to emigration for her settlement Prosperity. That part of America which had encouraged them most had advanced most rapidly in population, agriculture the arts. There was a possible danger he admitted that men with foreign predilections might obtain appointments but it was by no means probable that it would happen in any dangerous degree. For the same reason that they would be attached to their native Country, our own people wd. prefer natives of this Country to them. Experience proved this to be the case. Instances were rare of a foreigner being elected by the people within any short space after his coming among us — If bribery was to be practised by foreign powers, it would not be attempted among the electors, but among the elected; and among natives having full Confidence of the people not among strangers who would be regarded with a jealous eye.

Mr. Wilson. Cited Pennsylva. as a proof of the advantage of encouraging emigrations. It was perhaps the youngest (except Georgia) settlemt. on the Atlantic; yet it was at least among the foremost in population prosperity. He remarked that almost all the Genl. officers of 〈the〉 Pena. line 〈of the late army〉 were foreigners. And no complaint had ever been made against their fidelity or merit. Three of her deputies to the Convention (Mr. R. Morris, Mr. Fitzsimmons himself) were also not natives. He had no objection to Col. Hamiltons motion would withdraw the one made by himself. 7

Mr. Butler was strenuous agst. admitting foreigners into our public Councils.

Question on Col. Hamilton’s Motion

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. no. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]

Question on Mr. Williamson’s moution, to insert 9 years instead of seven.

N. H. ay. Masts. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va no. N- C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]

Mr. Wilson’s renewed the motion for 4 years instead of 7. on question

N. H. no Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. no Geo. no. [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]

Mr. Govr. Morris moved to add to the end of the section (art IV. s. 2) a proviso that the limitation 〈of seven years〉 should not affect 〈the rights of〉 any person now a Citizen. 8

Mr. Mercer 2ded. the motion. It was necessary he said to prevent a disfranchisement of persons who had become Citizens under the faith 〈 according to〉 — the laws Constitution 〈from〉 being on a level in all respects with natives.

Mr. Rutlidge. It might as well be said that all qualifications are disfranchisemts. and that to require the age of 25 years was a disfranchisement. The policy of the precaution was as great with regard to foreigners now Citizens; as to those who are to be naturalized in future.

Mr Sherman. The U. States have not invited foreigners nor pledged their faith that they should enjoy equal privileges with native Citizens. The Individual States alone have done this. The former therefore are at liberty to make any discriminations they may judge requisite.

Mr. Ghorum. When foreigners are naturalized it wd. seem as if they stand on an equal footing with natives. He doubted then the propriety of giving a retrospective force to the restriction.

Mr. 〈Madison〉 animadverted on the peculiarity of the doctrine of Mr. Sharman. It was 〈a subtilty〉 by which every national engagement might be evaded. By parity of reason, Whenever our public debts, or foreign treaties become inconvenient nothing 〈more〉 would be necessary to relieve us from them, than to 9 new model the Constitution. It was said that the U. S. as such have not pledged their faith to the naturalized foreigners, therefore are not bound. Be it so, that the States alone are bound. Who are to form the New Constitution by which the condition of that class of citizens is to be made worse than the other class? Are not the States ye agents? will they not be the members of it? Did they not appoint this Convention? Are not they to ratify its proceedings? Will not the new Constitution be their Act? If the new Constitution then violates the faith pledged to any description of people will not the makers of it, will not the States, be the violators. To justify the doctrine it must be said that the States can get rid of their obligation by revising the Constitution, though they could not do it by repealing the law under which foreigners held their privileges. He considered this a matter of real importance. It would expose us to the reproaches of all those who should be affected by it, reproaches which wd. soon be echoed from the other side of the Atlantic; and would unnecessarily enlist among the Adversaries of the reform a very considerable body of Citizens: We should moreover reduce every State to the dilemma of rejecting it or of violating the faith pledged to a part of its citizens.

Mr. Govr. Morris 10 considered the case of persons under 25 years, as very different from that of foreigners. No faith could be pleaded by the former in bar of the regulation. No assurance had ever been given that persons under that age should be in all cases on a level with those above it. But with regard to foreigners among us, the faith had been pledged that they should enjoy the privileges of Citizens. If the restriction as to age had been confined to natives, had left foreigners under 25 years, eligible in this case, the discrimination wd. have been an equal injustice on the other side.

Mr. Pinkney remarked that the laws of the States had varied much the terms of naturalization in different parts of America; and contended that the U. S. could not be bound to respect them on such an occasion as the present. It was a sort of recurrence to first principles.

Col- Mason was struck not like (Mr. 〈Madison〉), with the peculiarity, 11 but the propriety 11 of the doctrine of Mr. Sharman. The States have formed different qualifications themselves, for enjoying different rights of citizenship. Greater caution wd. be necessary in the outset of the Govt. than afterwards. All the great objects wd. be then provided for. Every thing would be then set in Motion. If persons among us attached to G- B. should work themselves into our Councils, a turn might be given to our affairs particularly to our Commercial regulations which might have pernicious consequences. The great Houses of British Merchants would spare no pains to insinuate the instruments of their views 〈into the Govt —〉

Mr. Wilson read the clause in the Constitution of Pena. giving to foreigners after two years residence all the rights whatsoever of Citizens, combined it with the Article of Confederation making the Citizens of one State Citizens of all, inferred the obligation Pena. was under to maintain the faith thus pledged to her citizens of foreign birth, and the just complaints which her failure would authorize: He observed likewise that the Princes States of Europe would avail themselves of such breach 〈of faith〉 to deter their subjects from emigrating to the U. S. 12

Mr. Mercer enforced the same idea of a breach of faith.

Mr. Baldwin could 〈not〉 enter into the force of the arguments agst. extending the disqualification to foreigners now Citizens. The discrimination of the place of birth, was not more objectionable than that of age which all had concurred in the propriety of.

Question on the proviso of Mr Govr. Morris in favor of foreigners now Citizens

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. no. Maryd. ay. Va. ay. N- C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 5; noes — 6.]

Mr. Carrol moved to 〈insert〉 “5 years” instead “of seven,” 〈in section 2d. Art: IV〉 13

N- H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. divd. Del. no. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 3; noes — 7; divided — 1.]

The Section (Art IV. Sec. 2.) 〈as formerly amended was〉 13 then agreed to nem. con.

Mr. Wilson moved that (in Art: V. sect. 3) 14 9 years be reduced to seven. 〈which was disagd. to and the 3d. Section (art. V.) confirmed by the following vote.〉 15

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes —8; noes — 3.]

Art. IV. 〈Sec.〉 5. 〈being〉 reconsidered.

Mr. Randolph moved that the clause be altered so as to read — “Bills for raising money for the purpose of revenue 〈or for appropriating the same shall originate in the House of Representatives〉 and shall not be 〈so〉 amended or altered by the Senate as to increase or diminish the sum to be raised, or change the mode of levying it, or the object of its appropriation.” 15 a — He would not repeat his reasons, but barely remind the members from the smaller States of the compromise by which the larger States were entitled to this privilege.

Col. Mason. This amendment removes all the objections urged agst. the section as it stood at first. By specifying purposes of revenue, it obviated the objection that the Section extended to all bills under which money might incidentally arise. By authorizing amendments in the Senate it got rid of the objections that the Senate could not correct errors of any sort, that it would introduce into the House of Reps. the practice of tacking foreign matter to money bills: These objections being removed, the arguments in favor of the proposed restraint on the Senate ought to have their full force. 1. the Senate did not represent the people, but the States in their political character. It was improper therefore that it should tax the people. The reason was the same agst. their doing it; as it had been agst. Congs. doing it. Nor was it in any respect necessary in order to cure the evils of our Republican system. He admitted that notwithstanding the superiority of the Republican form over every other, it had its evils. The chief ones, were the danger of the majority oppressing the minority, and the mischievous influence of demagogues. The Genl. Government of itself will cure these. As the States will not concur at the same time in their unjust oppressive plans, the general Govt. will be able to check defeat them, whether they result from the wickedness of the majority, or from the misguidance of demagogues. Again, the Senate is not like the H. of Reps. chosen frequently and obliged to return frequently among the people. They are to be chosen by the Sts for 6 years, will probably settle themselves at the seat of Govt. will pursue schemes for their own aggrandizement — will be able by wearyg out the H. of Reps and taking advantage of their impatience at the close of a long Session, to extort measures for that purpose. If they should be paid as he expected would be yet determined wished to be so, out of the Natl. Treasury, they will particularly extort an increase of their wages. A bare negative was a very different thing from that of originating bills. The practice in Engld was in point. The House of Lords does not represent nor tax the people, because not elected by the people. If the Senate can originate, they will in the recess of the Legislative Sessions, hatch their mischievous projects, for their own purposes, and have their money bills ready cut dried, (to use a common phrase) for the meeting of the H. of Reps. He compared the case to Poyning’s law — and signified that the House of Reps. might be rendered by degrees like the Parliament of Paris, the mere depository of the decrees of the Senate. As to the compromise so much had passed on that subject that he would say nothing about it. He did not mean by what he had said to oppose the permanency of the Senate. On the contrary he had no repugnance to an increase of it — nor to allowing it a negative, though the Senate was not by its present constitution entitled to it. But in all events he would contend that the pursestrings should be in the hands of the Representatives of the people.

Mr. Wilson was himself directly opposed to the equality of votes granted to the Senate by its present Constitution. At the same time he wished not to multiply the vices of the system. He did not mean to enlarge on a subject which had been so much canvassed, but would remark as an insuperable objection agst. the proposed restriction of money bills to the H. of Reps. that it would be a source of perpetual contentions where there was no mediator to decide them. The Presidt. here could not like the Executive Magistrate in England interpose by a prorogation, or dissolution. This restriction had been found pregnant with altercation in every State where the Constitution had established it. The House of Reps. will insert the other things in money bills, and by making them conditions of each other, destroy the deliberate liberty of the Senate. He stated the case of a Preamble to a money bill sent up by the House of Commons in the reign of Queen Anne, to the H. of Lords, in which the conduct of the displaced Ministry, who were to be impeached before the Lords, was condemned; the Commons thus extorting a premature judgmt. without any hearing of the Parties to be tried, and the H. of Lords being thus reduced to the poor disgraceful expedient of opposing to the authority of a law a protest on their Journals agst. its being drawn into precedent. If there was any thing like Poynings law in the present case, it was in the attempt to vest the exclusive right of originating in the H. of Reps. and so far he was agst it. He should be equally so if the right were to be exclusively vested in the Senate. With regard to the pursestrings, it was to be observed that the purse was to have two strings, one of which was in the hands of the H. of Reps. the other in those of the Senate. Both houses must concur in untying, and of what importance could it be which untied first, which last. He could not conceive it to be any objection to the senate’s preparing the bills, that they would have leisure for that purpose and would be in the habits of business. War, Commerce, Revenue were the great objects of the Genl. Government. All of them are connected with money. The restriction in favor of the H. of Represts. would exclude the Senate from originating any important bills whatever —

Mr. Gerry. considered this as a part of the plan that would be much scrutinized. Taxation representation are strongly associated in the minds of the people, and they will not agree that any but their immediate representatives shall meddle with their purses. In short the acceptance of the plan will inevitably fail, if the Senate be not restrained from originating Money bills.

Mr. Govermr. Morris All the arguments suppose the right to originate to tax, to be exclusively vested in the Senate. — The effects commented on may be produced by a Negative only in the Senate. They can tire out the other House, and extort their concurrence in favorite measures, as well by withholding their negative, as by adhering to a bill introduced by themselves.

Mr. 〈Madison thought〉 If the substitute offered by Mr. Randolph for the original section is to be adopted it would be proper to allow the Senate at least so to amend as to diminish the sums to be raised. Why should they be restrained from checking the extravagance of the other House? — One of the greatest evils incident to Republican Govt. was the spirit of contention faction. The proposed substitute, which in some respects lessened the objections agst. the section, had a contrary effect with respect to this particular. It laid a foundation for new difficulties and disputes between the two houses. The word revenue was ambiguous. In many acts, particularly in the regulations of trade, the object would be twofold. The raising of revenue would be one of them. How could it be determined which was the primary or predominant one; or whether it was necessary that revenue shd: be the sole object, in exclusion even of other incidental effects. When the Contest was first opened with G. B. their power to regulate trade was admitted. Their power to raise revenue rejected. An accurate investigation of the subject afterward proved that no line could be drawn between the two cases. The words amend or alter, form an equal source of doubt altercation. When an obnoxious paragraph shall be sent down from the Senate to the House of Reps it will be called an origination under the name of an amendment. The Senate may actually couch extraneous matter under that name. In these cases, the question will turn on the degree of connection between the matter object of the bill and the 〈alteration or〉 amendment offered to it. Can there be a more fruitful source of dispute, or a kind of dispute more difficult to be settled? His apprehensions on this point were not conjectural. Disputes had actually flowed from this source in Virga. where the Senate can originate no bill. The words “so as to increase or diminish the sum to be raised,” were liable to the same objections. In levying indirect taxes, which it seemed to be understood were to form the principal revenue of the new Govt. the sum to be raised, would be increased or diminished by a variety of collateral circumstances influencing the consumption, in general, the consumption of foreign or of domestic articles — of this or that particular species of articles, and even by the mode of collection which may be closely connected with the productiveness of a tax. — The friends of the section had argued its necessity from the permanency of the Senate. He could not see how this argumt. applied. The Senate was not more permanent now than in the form it bore in the original propositions of Mr. Randolph and at the time when no objection whatever was hinted agst. its originating money bills. Or if in consequence of a loss of the present question, a proportional vote in the Senate should be reinstated as has been urged as the indemnification the permanency of the Senate will remain the same. — If the right to originate be vested exclusively in the House of Reps. either the Senate must yield agst. its judgment to that House, in which 〈case〉 the Utility of the check will be lost — or the Senate will be inflexible the H. of Reps must adapt its Money bill to the views of the Senate, in which case, the exclusive right will be of no avail. — As to the Compromise of which so much had been said, he would make a single observation. There were 5 States which had opposed the equality of votes in the Senate. viz. Masts. Penna. Virga. N. Carolina S. Carola. As a compensation for the sacrifice extorted 〈from them〉 on this head, the exclusive origination of money bills in the other House had been tendered. Of the five States a majority viz. Penna. Virga. S. Carola. have uniformly voted agst. the proposed compensation, on its own merits, as rendering the plan of Govt. still more objectionable- Massts has been divided. N. Carolina alone has set a value on the compensation, and voted on that principle. What obligation then can the small States be under to concur agst. their judgments in reinstating the section?

Mr. Dickenson. Experience must be our only guide. Reason may mislead us. It was not Reason that discovered the singular admirable mechanism of the English Constitution. It was not Reason that discovered or ever could have discovered the odd in the eye of those who are governed by reason, the absurd mode of trial by Jury. Accidents probably produced these discoveries, and experience has give a sanction to them. This is then our guide. And has not experience verified the utility of restraining money bills to the immediate representatives of the people. Whence the effect may have proceeded he could not say; whether from the respect with which this privilege inspired the other branches of Govt. to the H. of Commons, or from the turn of thinking it gave to the people at large with regard to their rights, but the effect was visible could not be doubted Shall we oppose to this long experience, the short experience of 11 years which we had ourselves, on this subject — As to disputes, they could not be avoided any way. If both Houses should originate, each would have a different bill to which it would be attached, and for which it would contend. — He observed that all the prejudices of the people would be offended by refusing this exclusive privilege to the H. of Repress. and these prejudices shd. never be disregarded by us when no essential purpose was to be served. When this plan goes forth, it will be attacked by the popular leaders. Aristocracy will be the watchword; the Shibboleth among its adversaries. Eight States have inserted in their Constitutions the exclusive right of originating money bills in favor of the popular branch of the Legislature. Most of them however allowed the other branch to amend. This he thought would be proper for us to do.

Mr Randolph regarded this point as of such consequence, that as he valued the peace of this Country, he would press the adoption of it. We had numerous monstrous difficulties to combat. Surely we ought not to increase them. When the people behold in the Senate, the countenance of an aristocracy; and in the president, the form at least of a little monarch, will not their alarms be sufficiently raised without taking from their immediate representatives, a right which has been so long appropriated to them. — The Executive will have more influence over the Senate, than over the H. of Reps — Allow the Senate to originate in this case, that influence will be sure to mix itself in their deliberations plans. The Declaration of War he conceived ought not to be in the Senate composed of 26 men only, but rather in the other House. In the other House ought to be placed the origination of the means of war. As to Commercial regulations which may involve revenue, the difficulty may be avoided by restraining the definition to bills for the mere or sole, purpose of raising revenue. The Senate will be more likely to be corrupt than the H. of Reps and should therefore have less to do with money matters. His principal object however was to prevent popular objections against the plan, and to secure its adoption.

Mr. Rutlidge. The friends of this motion are not consistent in their reasoning. They tell us, that 〈we ought to be guided by〉 the long experience of G. B. not our own experience of 11 years: and yet they themselves propose to depart from it. The H. of Commons not only have the exclusive right of originating, but the Lords are not allowed to alter or amend a money bill. Will not the people say that this restriction is but a mere tub to the whale. They cannot but see that it is of no real consequence; and will be more likely to be displeased with it as an attempt to bubble them, than to impute it to a watchfulness over their rights. For his part, he would prefer giving the exclusive right to the Senate, if it was to be given 〈exclusively〉 at all. The Senate being more conversant in business, and having more leisure, will digest the bills much better, and as they are to have no effect, till examined approved by the H. of Reps there can be no possible danger. These clauses in the Constitutions of the States had been put in through a blind adherence to the British model. If the work was to be done over now, they would be omitted. The experiment in S. Carolina- where the Senate cannot originate or amend money bills, has shown that it answers no good purpose; and produces the very bad one of continually dividing heating the two houses. Sometimes indeed if the matter of the amendment of the Senate is pleasing to the other House they wink at the encroachment; if it be displeasing, then the Constitution is appealed to. Every Session is distracted by altercations on this subject. The practice now becoming frequent is for the Senate not to make formal amendments; but to send down a schedule of the alterations which will procure the bill their assent.

Mr. Carrol. The most ingenious men in Maryd. are puzzled to define the case of money bills, or explain the Constitution on that point; tho’ it seemed to be worded with all possible plainness precision. It is a source of continual difficulty squabble between the two houses.

Mr. McHenry mentioned an instance of extraordinary subterfuge, to get rid of the apparent force of the Constitution

On Question on the first part of the motion as to the exclusive originating of Money bills in the H. of Reps.

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no. Virga. ay. Mr. Blair Mr. M. no- Mr. R. Col. Mason and * Genl. Washington ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]

Question on Originating by H. of Reps amending by Senate. 〈as reported, Art IV. Sect. 5.〉 16

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. no. N J. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no Va. ay. 〈N. C. ay〉 S. C. no. Geo. no [Ayes — 4; noes — 7.]

〈Question on the last clause of sect: 5 — Art: IV — viz “No money shall be drawn from the Public Treasury, but in pursuance of appropriations that shall originate in the House of Reps. It passed in the negative

N. H. no. Mas. ay Con. no N. J no. Pa. no Del no. Md no Va no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.〉 17 [Ayes — 1; noes — 10.]

Adjd. 18

McHENRY
August 13.

The 2 sect. of the 4 article and the 3 sect. of the 5 article was reconsidered and lengthily debated. The 7 years however in the first and the 9 years in the latter remained and the articles stood as before reconsideration.

TUESDAY, AUGUST 14, 1787.

JOURNAL
Tuesday August 14. 1787.

It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the 9. section of the 6 article in order to take up the following

“The members of each House shall be incapable of holding any Office under the United States for which they, or any other for their benefit, receive any salary, fees, or emoluments of any kind — and the acceptance of such office shall vacate their seats respectively”

which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 5; noes — 5; divided — 1.]

It was moved and seconded to amend the 9 section of the 6 article by adding the following clause after the words “be elected”

“except in the army or navy thereof, but in that case their seats shall be vacated”

Before the question was taken on the last amendment

It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the 9th section of the 6 article until the powers to be vested in the Senate are ascertained

which passed unanimously in the affirmative

It was moved and seconded to strike out the latter clause of the 10 sect. of the 6 article and to insert the following

“to be paid out of the Treasury of the United States”

which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.]

It was moved and seconded to agree to the following amendment to the 10 sect. of the 6 article

“five dollars or the present value thereof per diem during their attendance for every thirty miles travel in going to and returning from Congress”

which passed in the negative [Ayes — 2; noes — 9.]

It was moved and seconded to agree to the following amendment to the 10th sect. of the 6 article

“to be ascertained by law”

which passed in the affirmative

On the question to agree to the 10 section of the 6 article as amended it passed in the affirmative —

and then the House adjourned till to-morrow at 11 o’Clock A M

D ETAIL OF A YES AND N OES
New Hampshire Massachusetts Rhode Island Connecticut New York New Jersey Pennsylvania Delaware Maryland Virginia North Carolina South Carolina Georgia Questions Ayes Noes Divided
[291] aye no no no aye aye aye aye no no dd To postpone the considn of the 9 sect. of the 6 article 5 5 1
[292] aye no aye aye aye aye aye aye aye no aye To be paid out of the Treasury of the United States. 9 2
[293] no no aye no no no no aye no no no To agree to five dollars per diem 2 9

MADISON
Tuesday Aug. 14. In Convention

Article VI. sect. 9. taken up. 1

Mr. Pinkney argued that the making the members ineligible to offices was degrading to them, and the more improper as their election into the Legislature implied that they had the confidence of the people; that it was inconvenient, because the Senate might be supposed to contain the fittest men. He hoped to see that body become a School of Public Ministers, a nursery of Statesmen: that it was impolitic, because the Legislature would cease to be a magnet to the first talents and abilities. He moved 〈to postpone the section in order to take up the following proposition viz — “the members of each House shall be incapable of holding any office under the U. S. for which they or any of others for their benefit receive any salary, fees, or emoluments of any kind — and the acceptance of such office shall vacate their seats respectively”〉 2

Genl. Mifflin 2ded. the motion

Col. Mason ironically proposed to strike out the whole section, as a more effectual expedient for encouraging that exotic corruption which might not otherwise thrive so well in the American Soil — for compleating that Aristocracy which was probably in the contemplation of some among us. and for inviting into the Legislative service, those generous benevolent characters who will do justice to each other’s merit, by carving out offices rewards for it. In the present state of American morals manners, few friends it may be thought will be lost to the plan, by 〈the opportunity〉 of giving premiums to a mercenary depraved ambition.

Mr Mercer. It is a first principle in political science, that whenever the rights of property are secured, an aristocracy will grow out of it. Elective Governments also necessarily become aristocratic, because the rulers being few can will draw emoluments for themselves from the many. The Governments of America will become aristocracies. They are so already. The public measures are calculated for the benefit of the Governors, not of the people. The people are dissatisfied complain. They change their rulers, and the public measures are changed, but it is only a change of one scheme of emolument to the rulers, for another. The people gain nothing by it, but an addition of instability uncertainty to their other evils. — Governmts. can only be maintained by force or influence. The Executive has not force, deprive him of influence by rendering the members of the 〈Legislature〉 ineligible to Executive offices, and he becomes a mere phantom of authority. The Aristocratic part will not even let him in for a share of the plunder. The Legislature must will be composed of wealth abilities, and the people will be governed by a Junto. The Executive ought to have a Council, being members of both Houses. Without such an influence, the war will be between the aristocracy the people. He wished it to be between the Aristocracy the Executive. Nothing else can protect the people agst. those speculating Legislatures which are now plundering them throughout the U. States.

Mr. Gerry read a Resolution of the Legislature of Massts. passed before the Act of Congs. recommending the Convention, in which her deputies were instructed not to depart from the rotation established in the 5th. art: of Confederation, nor to agree in any case to give to the members of Congs. a capacity to hold offices under the Government. This he said was repealed in consequence of the Act of Congs. with which the State thought it proper to comply in an unqualified manner. The Sense of the State however was still the same. He could not think with Mr. Pinkney that the disqualification was degrading. Confidence is the road to tyranny. As to Ministers Ambassadors few of them were necessary. It is the opinion of a great many that they ought to be discontinued, on our part; that none may be sent among us, that source of influence be shut up. If the Senate were to appoint Ambassadors as seemed to be intended, they will multiply embassies for their own sakes. He was not so fond of those productions as to wish to establish nurseries for them. If they are once appointed, the House of Reps. will be obliged to provide salaries for them, whether they approve of the measures or not. If men will not serve in the Legislature without a prospect of such offices, our situation is deplorable indeed. If our best Citizens are actuated by such mercenary views, we had better chuse a single despot at once. It will be more easy to satisfy the rapacity of one than of many. According to the idea of one Gentleman (Mr. Mercer) our Government it seems is to be a Govt. of plunder. In that case it certainly would be prudent to have but one rather than many to be employed in it. We cannot be too circumspect in the formation of this System. It will be examined on all sides and with a very suspicious eye. The People who have been so lately in arms agst. G. B. for their liberties, will not easily give them up. He lamented the evils existing at present under our Governments, but imputed them to the faults of those in office, not to the people. The misdeeds of the former will produce a critical attention to the opportunities afforded by the new system to like or greater abuses. As it now stands it is as compleat an aristocracy as ever was framed If great powers should be given to the Senate we shall be governed in reality by a Junto as has been apprehended. He remarked that it would be very differently constituted from Congs 1. there will be but 2 deputies from each State, in Congs. there may be 7. and are generally 5. — 2. they are chosen for six years. those of Congs. annually. 3. they are not subject to recall; those of Congs. are. 4. In Congs. 9 states are necessary for all great purposes — here 8 persons will suffice. Is it to be presumed that the people will ever agree to such a system? He moved to render the members of the H. of Reps. as well as of the Senate ineligible not only during, but for one year after the expiration of their terms. — If it should be thought that this will injure the Legislature by keeping out of it men of abilities who are willing to serve in other offices it may be required as a qualification for other offices, that the Candidate shall have served a certain time in the Legislature.

Mr Govr. Morris. Exclude the officers of the army navy, and you form a band having a different interest from opposed to the civil power: you stimulate them to despise reproach those “talking Lords who dare not face the foe”. Let this spirit be roused at the end of a war, before your troops shall have laid down their arms, and though the Civil authority be “entrenched in parchment to the teeth” they will cut their way to it. He was agst. rendering the members of the Legislature ineligible to offices. He was for rendering them eligible agn. after having vacated their Seats by accepting office. Why should we not avail ourselves of their services if the people chuse to give them their confidence. There can be little danger of corruption either among the people or the Legislatures who are to be the Electors. If they say, we see their merits, we honor the men, we chuse to renew our confidence in them, have they not a right to give them a preference; and can they be properly abridged of it.

Mr. Williamson; introduced his opposition to the motion by referring to the question concerning “money bills”. That clause he said was dead. Its ghost he was afraid would notwithstanding haunt us. It 〈had been〉 a matter of conscience with him, to insist upon it as long as there was hope of retaining it. He had swallowed the vote of rejection, with reluctance. He could not digest it. All that was said on the other side was that the restriction was not convenient. We have now got a House of Lords which is to originate money-bills. To avoid another inconveniency, we are to have a whole Legislature at liberty to cut out offices for one another. He thought a self-denying ordinance for ourselves would be more proper. Bad as the Constitution has been made by expunging the restriction on the Senate concerning money bills he did not wish to make it worse by expunging the present Section. He had scarcely seen a single corrupt measure in the Legislature of N- Carolina, which could not be traced up to office hunting.

Mr Sherman. The Constitution shd. lay as few temptations as possible in the way of those in power. Men of abilities will increase as the Country grows more populous and, and the means of education are more diffused.

Mr. Pinkney- No State has rendered the members of the Legislature ineligible to offices. In S- Carolina the Judges are eligible into the Legislature. It cannot be supposed then that the motion will be offensive to the people. If the State Constitutions should be revised he believed restrictions of this sort wd be rather diminished than multiplied.

Mr. Wilson could not approve of the Section as it stood, and could not give up his judgment to any supposed objections that might arise among the people. He considered himself as acting responsible for the welfare of millions not immediately represented in this House. He had also asked himself the serious question what he should say to his constituents in case they should call upon him to tell them why he sacrificed his own Judgment in a case where they authorized him to exercise it? Were he to own to them that he sacrificed it in order to flatter their prejudices, he should dread the retort: did you suppose the people of Penna. had not good sense enough to receive a good Government? Under this impression he should certainly follow his own Judgment which disapproved of the section. He would remark in addition to the objections urged agst. it. that as one branch of the Legislature was to be appointed by the Legislatures of the States, the other by the people of the States, as both are to be paid by the States, and to be appointable to State offices; nothing seemed to be wanting to prostrate the Natl. Legislature, but to render its members ineligible to Natl offices, by that means take away its power of attracting those talents which were necessary to give weight to the Governt. and to render it useful to the people. He was far from thinking the ambition which aspired to Offices of dignity and trust, an ignoble or culpable one. He was sure it was not politic to regard it in that light, or to withhold from it the prospect of those rewards, which might engage it in the career of public service. He observed that the State of Penna. which had gone as far as any State into the policy of fettering power, had not rendered the members of the Legislature ineligible to offices of Govt.

Mr Elsworth did not think the mere postponement of the reward would be any material discouragement of merit. Ambitious minds will serve 2 years or 7 years in the Legislature for the sake of qualifying themselves for other offices. This he thought a sufficient security for obtaining the services of the ablest men in the Legislature, although whilst members they should be ineligible to Public offices. Besides, merit will be most encouraged, when most impartially rewarded. If rewards are to circulate only within the Legislature, merit out of it will be discouraged.

Mr. Mercer was extremely anxious on this point. What led to the appointment of this Convention? The corruption mutability of the Legislative Councils of the States. If the plan does not remedy these, it will not recommend itself: and we shall not be able in our private capacities to support enforce it: nor will the best part of our Citizens exert themselves for the purpose. — It is a great mistake to suppose that the paper we are to propose will govern the U. States? It is The men whom it will bring into the Governt. and interest in maintaining it that is to govern them. The paper will only mark out the mode the form- Men are the substance and must do the business. All Govt. must be by force or influence. It is not the King of France — but 200,000 janisaries of power that govern that Kingdom. There will be no such force here; influence then must be substituted; and he would ask whether this could be done, if the members of the Legislature should be ineligible to offices of State; whether such a disqualification would not determine all the most influential men to stay at home, and prefer appointments within their respective States.

Mr. Wilson was by no means satisfied with the answer given by Mr. Elseworth to the argument as to the discouragement of merit. The members must either go a second time into the Legislature, and disqualify themselves — or say to their Constituents, we served you before only from the mercenary view of qualifying ourselves for offices, and haveg answered this purpose we do not chuse to be again elected.

Mr. Govr. Morris put the case of a war, and the Citizen the most capable of conducting it, happening to be a member of the Legislature. What might have been the consequence of such a regulation at the commencement, or even in the Course of the late contest for our liberties?

On question for postponing in order to take up Mr. Pinkneys motion, 〈it was lost.〉

N- H- ay- Mas. no. Ct no. N. J- no. Pa ay. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. no. S- C. no. Geo. 〈divd.〉 [Ayes — 5; noes — 5; divided — 1.] 3

Mr Govr Morris moved to insert, after “office”, except offices in the army or navy: 〈but in that case their offices shall be vacated〉 4

Mr. Broome 2ds. him

M. Randolph had been should continue uniformly opposed to the striking out of the clause; as opening a door for influence corruption. No arguments had made any impression on him, but those which related to the case of war, and a co-existing incapacity of the fittest commanders to be employed. He admitted great weight in these, and would agree to the exception proposed by Mr. Govr. Morris.

Mr. Butler Mr Pinkney urged a general postponemt. 〈of 9 Sect. art. VI〉 5 till it should be seen what powers would be vested in the Senate, when it would be more easy to judge of the expediency of allowing the Officers of State to be chosen out of that body. — A general postponement was agreed to nem. con. 6

Art: VI. sect. 10. taken up — “that members be paid by their respective States.” 7

Mr. Elseworth said that in reflecting on this subject he had been satisfied that too much dependence on the States would be produced by this mode of payment. He moved 〈to strike out and insert〉 “that they should” be paid out of the Treasury 〈of the U. S.〉 an allowance not exceeding 〈(blank)〉 8 dollars per day or the present value thereof,

Mr. Govr Morris. remarked that if the members were to be paid by the States it would throw an unequal burden on the distant States, which would be unjust as the Legislature was to be a national Assembly. He moved that the payment be out of the Natl. Treasury; leaving the quantum to the discretion of the Natl. Legislature. There could be no reason to fear that they would overpay themselves.

Mr. Butler contended for payment by the States; particularly in the case of the Senate, who will be so long out of their respective States, that they will lose sight of their Constituents unless dependent on them for their support.

Mr Langdon was agst. payment by the States. There would be some difficulty in fixing the sum; but it would be unjust to oblige the distant States to bear the expence of their members in travelling to and from the Seat of Govt.

Mr 〈Madison.〉 If the H. of Reps. is to be chosen biennially — and the Senate to be constantly dependent on the Legislatures which are chosen annually, he could not see any chance for that stability in the Genl Govt. the want of which was a principal evil in the State Govts. His fear was that the organization of the Govt supposing the Senate to be really independt. for six years, would not effect our purpose. It was nothing more than a combination of the peculiarities of two of the State Govts. which separately had been found insufficient. The Senate was formed on the model of that of Maryld. The Revisionary check, on that of N. York. What the effect of A union of these provisions might be, could not be foreseen. The enlargement of the sphere of the Government was indeed a circumstance which he thought would be favorable as he had on several occasions undertaken to show. He was however for fixing at least two extremes not to be exceeded by the Natl. Legislre. in the payment of themselves.

Mr. Gerry. There are difficulties on both sides. The observation of Mr. Butler has weight in it. On the other side, the State Legislatures may turn out the Senators by reducing their salaries. Such things have been practised.

Col. Mason. It has not yet been noticed that the clause as it now stands makes the House of Represents. also dependent on the State Legislatures; so that both Houses will be made the instruments of the politics of the States whatever they may be.

Mr. Broom could see no danger in trusting the Genl. Legislature with the payment of themselves. The State Legislatures had this power, and no complaint had been made of it-

Mr. Sherman was not afraid that the Legislature would make their own wages too high; but too low, so that men ever so fit could not serve unless they were at the same time rich. He thought the best plan would be to fix a moderate allowance to be paid out of the Natl. Treasy. and let the States make such additions as they might judge fit. He moved that 5 dollars per day be the sum, any further emoluments to be added by the States.

Mr. Carrol had been much surprised at seeing this clause in the Report. The dependence of both houses on the State Legislatures is compleat; especially as the members of the former are eligible to State offices. The States can now say: if you do not comply with our wishes, we will starve you: if you do we will reward you. The new Govt. in this form was nothing more than a second edition of Congress in two volumes, instead of one, and perhaps with very few amendments —

Mr Dickenson took it for granted that all were convinced of the necessity of making the Genl. Govt. independent of the prejudices, passions, and improper views of the State Legislatures. The contrary of This was effected by the section as it stands. On the other hand, there were objections agst taking a permanent standard as Wheat which had been suggested on a former occasion, as well as against leaving the matter to the pleasure of the Natl. Legislature. He proposed that an Act should be passed every 12 years by the Natl. Legislre settling the quantum of their wages. If the Genl. Govt. should be left dependent on the State Legislatures, it would be happy for us if we had never met in this Room.

Mr. Elseworth was not unwilling himself to trust the Legislature with authority to regulate their own wages, but well knew that an unlimited discretion for that purpose would produce strong, tho’ perhaps not insuperable objections. He thought changes in the value of money, provided for by his motion in the words, “or the present value thereof.”

Mr. L. Martin. As the Senate is to represent the States, the members of it ought to be paid by the States —

Mr. Carrol. The Senate was to represent manage the affairs of the whole, and not to be the advocates of State interests. They ought then not to be dependent on nor paid by the States.

On the question for paying the Members of the Legislature out of the Natl Treasury, ÷

N. H. ay. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. ay. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 9; noes —2.]

Mr. Elsworth moved that the pay be fixed at 5 dollrs. 〈or the present value thereof per day during their attendance for every thirty miles in travelling to from Congress.〉 9

Mr. Strong preferred 4 dollars, leaving the Sts at liberty to make additions

On question for fixing the pay at 5 dollars.

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 2; noes — 9.]

Mr. Dickenson proposed that the wages of the members of both houses sd. be required to be the same.

Mr. Broome seconded him.

Mr Ghorum. this would be unreasonable. The Senate will be detained longer from home, will be obliged to remove their families, and in time of war perhaps to sit constantly. Their allowance should certainly be higher. The members of the Senates in the States are allowed more, than those of the other house.

Mr Dickenson withdrew his motion

〈It was moved agreed to amend the Section by adding- “to be ascertained by law”〉 9

The Section (Art VI. sec. 10) as amended- agreed to nem. con.

Adjd.

McHENRY
Augt. 14.

Sect. 8 agreed to, premising the words “during the session of the legislature”. 10

Sect. 9. postponed.

Sect. 10. altered, that the members of both branches be paid out of the treasury of the United States, their pay to be ascertained by law.

WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 15, 1787.

JOURNAL
Wednesday August 15. 1787.

On the question to agree to the 11 Sect. of the 6 article as reported 1

it passed in the affirmative

It was moved and seconded to strike out the latter part of the 12 Sect. of the 6 article,

which passed in the affirmative 2

It was moved and seconded to amend- the 12. sect. of the 6 article as follows

“Each House shall possess the right of originating all Bills except Bills for raising money for the purposes of revenue or for appropriating the same and for fixing the salaries of the Officers of Government which shall originate in the House of representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with amendments as in other cases”

It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the last amendment

which passed in the affirmative. [Ayes — 6; noes — 5.]

It was moved and seconded to agree to the following amendmt of the 13th sect. of the 6 article.

“Every bill which shall have passed the two Houses, shall, before it become a law, be severally presented to the President of the United States and to the Judges of the supreme court, for the revision of each — If, upon such revision, they shall approve of it, they shall respectively signify their approbation by signing it — But, if upon such revision, it shall appear improper to either or both to be passed into a law; it shall be returned, with the objections against it, to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider the bill: But, if, after such reconsideration, two thirds of that House, when either the President or a Majority of the Judges shall object, or three fourths, where both shall object, shall agree to pass it, it shall, together with the objections, be sent to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered and, if approved by two thirds, or three fourths of the other House, as the case may be, it shall become a law”

which passed in the negative [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.] 3

It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the 13th sect. of the 6th article

which passed in the negative [Ayes — 2; noes — 9.]

It was moved and seconded to strike out the words “two thirds” and to insert the words “three fourths” in the 13th sect. of the 6 article

which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 6; noes — 4; divided — 1.]

It was moved and seconded to amend the first clause of the 13 sect. of the 6 article as follows

“No Bill or resolve of the Senate and House of representatives shall become a Law, or have force until it shall have been presented to the President of the United States for his revision”

which passed in the negative. [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]

[No money shall be drawn from the Treasy of the U. S. but in conseq. of approns by law. withdrawn.

To adjourn Ayes — 3; noes — 7.] 4

It was moved and seconded to strike out the word “seven” and to insert the words “ten (“sundays excepted”) in the 13th sect. of the 6 article

which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.]

On the question to agree to the 13 sect. of the 6 article as amended

it passed in the affirmative

And then the House adjourned till to-morrow at 11 o’Clock A. M.

D ETAIL OF A YES AND N OES
New Hampshire Massachusetts Rhode Island Connecticut New York New Jersey Pennsylvania Delaware Maryland Virginia North Carolina South Carolina Georgia Questions Ayes Noes Divided
[294] aye aye no no no no no aye aye aye aye To postpone the amendmt offered to the 12th section 6 5
[295] no no no no no aye aye aye no no no To agree to Mr Madison’s amendment to the negative by addg the Judiciary 3 8
[296] no no no no no aye aye no no no no To postpone the considn of the 13. sect. 6 article 2 9
[297] no no aye no dd aye aye aye aye aye no “three fourths,” instead of “two thirds” 13 sect 6 art. 6 4 1
[298] no aye no no no aye no no aye no no To agree to the amendmt “no bill or resolve” 3 8
[299] withdrawn No money shall be drawn from the Treasy of the U. S. but in conseq. of approns by law.
[300] no no no no aye aye aye no no no To adjourn
[301] no no aye aye aye aye aye aye aye aye aye To insert ten days sundays excepted 9 2
[End of ninth loose sheet]

MADISON
Wednesday August 15. in Convention

〈Art: VI.〉 sect. 11. 5 Agreed to nem. con.

〈Art: VI〉 Sect- 12. taken up. 6

Mr. Strong move〈d〉 7 to amend 〈the article so as to read — “Each House shall possess the right of originating all bills, except bills for raising money for the purposes of revenue, or for appropriating the same and for fixing the salaries of the officers of the Govt. which shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with amendments as in other cases”〉 8

Col. Mason. 2ds. the motion. He was extremely earnest to take this power from the Senate, who he said could already sell the whole Country by means of Treaties.

Mr Ghorum urged the amendment as of great importance. The Senate will first acquire the habit of preparing money bills, and then the practice will grow into an exclusive right of preparing them.

Mr. Gouvernr. Morris opposed it as unnecessary and inconvenient.

Mr. Williamson- some think this restriction on the Senate essential to liberty — others think it of no importance. Why should not the former be indulged. he was for an efficient and stable Govt: but many would not strengthen the Senate if not restricted in the case of money bills. The friends of the Senate would therefore lose more than they would gain by refusing to gratify the other side. He moved to postpone the subject till the powers of the Senate should be gone over.

Mr. Rutlidge 2ds. the motion.

Mr. Mercer should hereafter be agst. returning to a reconsideration of this section. He contended, (alluding to Mr. Mason’s observations) that the Senate ought not to have the power of treaties. This power belonged to the Executive department; adding that Treaties would not be final so as to alter the laws of the land, till ratified by legislative authority. This was the case of Treaties in Great Britain; particularly the late Treaty of Commerce with France.

Col. Mason. did not say that a Treaty would repeal a law; but that the Senate by means of treaty might alienate territory c. without legislative sanction. The cessions of the British Islands in W- Indies by Treaty alone were an example - If Spain should possess herself of Georgia therefore the Senate might by treaty dismember the Union. He wished the motion to be decided now, that the friends of it might know how to conduct themselves.

On question for postponing Sect: 12. 〈it passed in the affirmative.〉

N. H. ay. Mas. ay Ct. no. 〈N. J. no〉 Pena no. 〈Del. no〉 Maryd. no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay- Geo. ay. — [Ayes — 6; noes — 5.] 9

Mr. Ma〈dison〉 moved that all acts before they become laws should be submitted both to the Executive and Supreme Judiciary Departments, that if either of these should object ⅔ of each House, if both should object, ¾ of each House, should be necessary to overrule the objections and give to the acts the force of law. — 〈See the motion at large in the Journal of this date, page 258 [253]. insert it here.〉

Mr. Wilson seconds the motion

Mr. Pinkney opposed the interference of the Judges in the Legislative business: it will involve them in parties, and give a previous tincture to their opinions.

Mr. Mercer heartily approved the motion. It as an axiom that the Judiciary ought to be separate from the Legislative: but equally so that it ought to be independent of that department. The true policy of the axiom is that legislative usurpation and oppression may be obviated. He disapproved of the Doctrine that the Judges as expositors of the Constitution should have authority to declare a law void. He thought laws ought to be well and cautiously made, and then to be uncontroulable.

Mr. Gerry. This motion comes to the same thing with what has been already negatived.

Question on the motion of Mr M〈adison〉

N- H. no. Mass. no. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. ay. Maryd. ay. Virga. ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]

Mr. Govr. Morris regretted that something like the proposed check could not be agreed to. He dwelt on the importance of public Credit, and the difficulty of supporting it without some strong barrier against the instability of legislative Assemblies. He suggested the idea of requiring three fourths of each house to repeal laws where the President should not concur. He had no great reliance on the revisionary power as the Executive was now to be constituted (elected by the Congress). The legislature will contrive to soften down the President. He recited the history of paper emissions, and the perseverance of the legislative assemblies in repeating them, with all the distressing effects 〈of such measures〉 before their eyes. Were the National legislature formed, and a war was now to break out, this ruinous expedient would be again resorted to, if not guarded against. The requiring ¾ to repeal would, though not a compleat remedy, prevent the hasty passage of laws, and the frequency of those repeals which destroy faith in the public, and which are among our greatest calamities. —

Mr Dickenson was strongly impressed with the remark of Mr. Mercer as to the power of the Judges to set aside the law. He thought no such power ought to exist. He was at the same time at a loss what expedient to substitute. The Justiciary of Aragon he observed became by degrees the lawgiver.

Mr. Govr. Morris, suggested the expedient of an absolute negative in the Executive. He could not agree that the Judiciary which was part of the Executive, should be bound to say that a direct violation of the Constitution was law. A controul over the legislature might have its inconveniences. But view the danger on the other side. The most virtuous citizens will often as members of a legislative body concur in measures which afterwards in their private capacity they will be ashamed of. Encroachments of the popular branch of the Government ought to be guarded agst. The Ephori at Sparta became in the end absolute. The Report of the Council of Censors in Pennsylva points out the many invasions of the legislative department on the Executive numerous as the latter * is, within the short term of seven years, and in a State where a strong party is opposed to the Constitution, and watching every occasion of turning the public resentments agst. it. If the Executive be overturned by the popular branch, as happened in England, the tyranny of one man will ensue - In Rome where the Aristocracy overturned the throne, the consequence was different. He enlarged on the tendency of the legislative Authority to usurp on the Executive and wished the section to be postponed, in order to consider of some more effectual check than requiring ⅔ only to overrule the negative of the Executive.

Mr Sherman. Can one man be trusted better than all the others if they all agree? This was neither wise nor safe. He disapproved of Judges meddling in politics and parties. We have gone far enough in forming the negative as it now stands.

Mr. Carrol- when the negative to be overruled by ⅔ only was agreed to, the quorum was not fixed. He remarked that as a majority was now to be the quorum, 17, in the larger, and 8 in the smaller house might carry points. The Advantage that might be taken of this seemed to call for greater impediments to improper laws. He thought the controuling power however of the Executive could not be well decided, till it was seen how the formation of that department would be finally regulated. He wished the consideration of the matter to be postponed.

Mr. Ghorum saw no end to these difficulties and postponements. Some could not agree to the form of Government before the powers were defined. Others could not agree to the powers till it was seen how the Government was to be formed. He thought a majority as large a quorum as was necessary. It was the quorum almost every where fixt in the U. States.

Mr. Wilson; after viewing the subject with all the coolness and attention possible was most apprehensive of a dissolution of the Govt from the legislature swallowing up all the other powers. He remarked that the prejudices agst the Executive resulted from a misapplication of the adage that the parliament was the palladium of liberty. Where the Executive was really formidable, King and Tyrant, were naturally associated in the minds of people; not legislature and tyranny. But where the Executive was not formidable, the two last were most properly associated. After the destruction of the King in Great Britain, a more pure and unmixed tyranny sprang up in the parliament than had been exercised by the monarch. He insisted that we had not guarded agst. the danger on this side by a sufficient self-defensive power either to the Executive or Judiciary department-

Mr Rutlidge was strenuous agst postponing; and complained much of the tediousness of the proceedings.

Mr Elseworth held the same language. We grow more more skeptical as we proceed. If we do not decide soon, we shall be unable to come to any decision.

The question for postponement passed in the negative: 〈Del: Maryd only being in the affirmative.〉 10

Mr. Williamson moved to change “⅔ of each house” into “¾” as requisite to overrule the dissent of the President. He saw no danger in this, and preferred giving the power to the Presidt. alone, to admitting the Judges into the business of legislation.

Mr. Wilson 2ds. the motion; referring to and repeating the ideas of Mr. Carroll.

On this motion for ¾. 〈instead of two thirds; it passed in the affirmative〉 11

N- H- no- Mas. no. Ct. 〈ay〉 N- J. no. Pena. divd. Del- ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no. [Ayes — 6; noes — 4; divided — 1.] 12

Mr. 〈Madison,〉 observing that if the negative of the President was confined to bills; it would be evaded by acts under the form and name of Resolutions, votes c — proposed that or resolve should be added after “ bill ” in the beginning of sect 13. with an exception as to votes of adjournment c. — after a short and rather confused conversation on the subject, the question was put rejected, the States being as follows,

N. H. no- Mas. ay- Ct. no. N- J. no- Pena. no. Del ay. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]

Ten days (Sundays excepted)” instead of “ seven ” were allowed to the President for returning bills with his objections 〈N. H. Mas: only voting agst. it. The 13 sect: of art. VI as amended was then agreed to.〉 13

Adjourned. 14

McHENRY
August 15.

Sect. 11. agreed to.

Sect. 12 postponed.

Sect. 13. Agreed to with the alteration of ¾ of each house instead of two thirds.

THURSDAY, AUGUST 16, 1787.

JOURNAL
Thursday August 16. 1787.

It was moved and seconded to agree to the following as the 14 section of the 6. article.

“every order, resolution or vote, to which the concurrence of the Senate and House of representatives may be necessary (except on a question of adjournment, and in the cases hereinafter mentioned) shall be presented to the President for his revision; and before the same shall have force, shall be approved by him, or, being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by the Senate and House of representatives, according to the rules and limitations prescribed in the case “of a bill”

which passed in the affirmative. [Ayes — 9; noes — 1] 1

It was moved and seconded to insert the following proviso after the first clause of the 1st section of the 7-article.

“Provided that no Tax, Duty or Imposition shall be laid by the Legislature of the United States on articles exported from any State”

It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the Proviso

which passed in the affirmative. [Ayes — 10; noes — 1.]

It was moved and seconded to add the words “and post roads” after the words “post offices” in the 7 clause of the 1st sect of the 7. article

which passed in the affirmative. [Ayes — 6; noes — 5.]

It was moved and seconded to strike the words “and emit bills” out of the 8. clause of the 1 section of the 7 article

which passed in the affirmative. [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.]

[To adjourn Ayes — 4; noes — 7.] 2

separate questions being taken on the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 clauses of the 1. sect. of the 7 article as amended

They passed in the affirmative.

And then the House adjourned till to-morrow at 11 o’Clock A. M.

D ETAIL OF A YES AND N OES
3 At this point the secretary began keeping the Detail of Ayes and Noes in a bound blank book. On page 1 he apparently started to copy some of the more important votes from the loose sheets. He had thus copied Votes 17, 29, 30, 32, 34-37, 39-41, when he stopped and, leaving ten blank pages, commenced recording the votes of August 16 on page 12. After filling up pages 12-16, he turned back to page 2 and recorded the last votes on that and the page following.
[Beginning of p. 12 of blank book] 3
New Hampshire Massachusetts Rhode Island Connecticut New York New Jersey Pennsylvania Delaware Maryland Virginia No Carolina So Carolina Georgia Questions ayes noes divided
[302] aye aye aye aye aye aye no aye aye aye aye To postpone the Proviso to the 1st clause 1st sect. 7 article 10 1
[303] no aye no no no aye aye aye no aye aye To add the words “and Post roads” after “Post offices” 6 5
[304] aye aye aye no aye aye no aye aye aye aye To strike out the words “and emit bills” 8 clause, 1 section, 7 article 9 2
[305] no no no aye no no aye aye aye no no To adjourn

MADISON
Thursday. August 16. in Convention.

Mr. Randolph, having thrown into a new form the motion, putting votes, Resolutions c. on a footing with Bills, renewed it 〈as follows. “Every order resolution or vote, to which the concurrence of the Senate House of Reps. may be necessary (except on a question of adjournment and in the cases hereinafter mentioned) shall be presented to the President for his revision; and before the same shall have force shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him shall be repassed by the Senate House of Reps according to the rules limitations prescribed in the case of a Bill”〉 4

Mr. Sherman thought it unnecessary, except as to votes taking money out of the Treasury which might be provided for in another place.

On Question as moved by Mr Randolph

N- H. ay. Mas: not present, Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N - C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 9; noes — 1; absent — 1.]

〈The Amendment was made a Section 14. of Art VI.〉 4

Art: VII. Sect. 1. taken up. 5

Mr. L. Martin asked what was meant by the Committee of detail 〈in the expression〉 “ duties ” and “ imposts ”. 6 If the meaning were the same, the former was unnecessary; if different, the matter ought to be made clear.

Mr Wilson, duties are applicable to many objects to which the word imposts does not relate. The latter are appropriated to commerce; the former extend to a variety of objects, as stamp duties c.

Mr. Carroll reminded the Convention of the great difference of interests among the States, and doubts the propriety in that point of view of letting a majority be a quorum.

Mr. Mason urged the necessity of connecting with the power of levying taxes duties c, 〈the prohibition in Sect 4 of art VI 7 〉 that no tax should be laid on exports. He was unwilling to trust to its being done in a future article. He hoped the Northn. States did not mean to deny the Southern this security. It would hereafter be as desirable to the former when the latter should become the most populous. He professed his jealousy for the productions of the Southern or as he called them, the staple States. 〈He moved to insert the following amendment: “provided that no tax duty or imposition, shall be laid by the Legislature of the U. States on articles exported from any State”〉 8

Mr Sherman had no objection to the proviso here, other than it would derange the parts of the report as made by the Committee, to take them in such an order.

Mr. Rutlidge. It being of no consequence in what order points are decided, he should vote for the clause as it stood, but on condition that the subsequent part relating to negroes should also be agreed to.

Mr. Governeur Morris considered such a proviso as inadmissible any where. It was so radically objectionable, that it might cost the whole system the support of some members. He contended that it would not in some cases be equitable to tax imports without taxing exports; and that taxes on exports would be often the most easy and proper of the two.

Mr. 〈Madison〉 1. the power of taxing exports is proper in itself, and as the States cannot with propriety exercise it separately, it ought to be vested in them collectively. 2. it might with particular advantage be exercised with regard to articles in which America was not rivalled in foreign markets, as Tobo. c. The contract between the French Farmers Genl. and Mr. Morris stipulating that if taxes sd. be laid in America on the export of Tobo. they sd. be paid by the Farmers, shewed that it was understood by them, that the price would be thereby raised in America, and consequently the taxes be paid by the European Consumer. 3. it would be unjust to the States whose produce was exported by their neighbours, to leave it subject to be taxed by the latter. This was a grievance which had already filled N. H. Cont. N. Jery. Del: and N. Carolina with loud complaints, as it related to imports, and they would be equally authorized by taxes 〈by the States〉 on exports. 4. The Southn. States being most in danger and most needing naval protection, could the less complain if the burden should be somewhat heaviest on them. 5. we are 〈not〉 providing for the present moment only, and time will equalize the situation of the States in this matter. 〈He was for these reasons, agst the motion〉

Mr. Williamson considered the clause proposed agst taxes on exports as reasonable and necessary.

Mr. Elseworth was agst. Taxing exports; but thought the prohibition stood in the most proper place, and was agst. deranging the order reported by the Committee

Mr. Wilson was decidedly agst prohibiting general taxes on exports. He dwelt on the injustice and impolicy of leaving N. Jersey Connecticut c any longer subject to the exactions of their commercial neighbours.

Mr Gerry thought the legislature could not be trusted with such a power. It might ruin the Country. It might be exercised partially, raising one and depressing another part of it.

Mr Govr Morris. However the legislative power may be formed, it will if disposed be able to ruin the Country — He considered the taxing of exports to be in many cases highly politic. Virginia has found her account in taxing Tobacco. All Countries having peculiar articles tax the exportation of them; as France her wines and brandies. A tax here on lumber, would fall on the W. Indies punish their restrictions on our trade. The same is true of live-stock and in some degree of flour. In case of a dearth in the West Indies, we may extort what we please. Taxes on exports are a necessary source of revenue. For a long time the people of America will not have money to pay direct taxes. Seize and sell their effects and you push them into Revolts —

Mr. Mercer was strenuous against giving Congress power to tax exports. Such taxes were impolitic, as encouraging the raising of articles not meant for exportation. The States had now a right where their situation permitted, to tax both the imports and exports of their uncommercial neighbours. It was enough for them to sacrifice one half of it. It had been said the Southern States had most need of naval protection. The reverse was the case. Were it not for promoting the carrying trade of the Northn States, the Southn States could let their trade go into foreign bottoms, where it would not need our protection. Virginia by taxing her tobacco had given an advantage to that of Maryland.

Mr. Sherman. To examine and compare the States in relation to imports and exports will be opening a boundless field. He thought the matter had been adjusted, and that imports were to be subject, and exports not, to be taxed. He thought it wrong to tax exports except it might be such articles as ought not to be exported. The complexity of the business in America would render an equal tax on exports impracticable. The oppression of the uncommercial States was guarded agst. by the power to regulate trade between the States. As to compelling foreigners, that might be done by regulating trade in general. The Government would not be trusted with such a power. Objections are most likely to be excited by considerations relating to taxes money. A power to tax exports would shipwreck the whole.

Mr. Carrol was surprised that any objection should be made to an exception of exports from the power of taxation.

It was finally agreed that the question concerning exports shd. lie over for the place in which the exception stood in the report. 9 〈Maryd. alone voting agst it〉 10

Sect: 1. (art. VII) agreed to: Mr. Gerry alone answering no.

Clause for regulating commerce with foreign nations c. agreed to nem. con.

  • for 11 coining money. agd. to nem. con.
  • for regulating foreign coin. do. do.
  • for fixing the standard of weights measures. do. do.

“To establish post-offices”. Mr Gerry moved to add, and post-roads. Mr. Mercer 2ded. on question

N- H- no- Mas- ay- Ct. no. N. J- no. Pena, no. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes 6; noes — 5.]

Mr. Govr Morris moved to strike out “and emit bills on the credit of the U. States” 12 — If the United States had credit such bills would be unnecessary: if they had not unjust useless.

Mr Butler, 2ds. the motion.

Mr. Madison, will it not be sufficient to prohibit the making them a tender? This will remove the temptation to emit them with unjust views. And promissory notes in that shape may in some emergencies be best.

Mr. Govr. Morris. striking out the words will leave room still for notes of a responsible minister which will do all the good without the mischief. The Monied interest will oppose the plan of Government, if paper emissions be not prohibited.

Mr. Ghorum was for striking out, without inserting any prohibition. if the words stand they may suggest and lead to the measure.

Col Mason had doubts on the subject. Congs. he thought would not have the power unless it were expressed. Though he had a mortal hatred to paper money, yet as he could not foresee all emergences, he was unwilling to tie the hands of the Legislature. He observed that the late war could not have been carried on, had such a prohibition existed.

Mr. Ghorum- The power as far as it will be necessary or safe, is involved in that of borrowing.

Mr Mercer was a friend to paper money, though in the present state temper of America, he should neither propose nor approve of such a measure. He was consequently opposed to a prohibition of it altogether. It will stamp suspicion on the Government to deny it a discretion on this point. It was impolitic also to excite the opposition of all those who were friends to paper money. The people of property would be sure to be on the side of the plan, and it was impolitic to purchase their further attachment with the loss of the opposite class of Citizens

Mr. Elseworth thought this a favorable moment to shut and bar the door against paper money. The mischiefs of the various experiments which had been made, were now fresh in the public mind and had excited the disgust of all the respectable part of America. By withholding the power from the new Governt. more friends of influence would be gained to it than by almost any thing else- Paper money can in no case be necessary- Give the Government credit, and other resources will offer- The power may do harm, never good.

Mr. Randolph, nothwithstanding his antipathy to paper money, could not agree to strike out the words, as he could not foresee all the occasions that might arise.

Mr Wilson. It will have a most salutary influence on the credit of the U. States to remove the possibility of paper money. This expedient can never succeed whilst its mischiefs are remembered. And as long as it can be resorted to, it will be a bar to other resources.

Mr. Butler. remarked that paper was a legal tender in no Country in Europe. He was urgent for disarming the Government of such a power.

Mr Mason was still averse to tying the hands of the Legislature altogether. If there was no example in Europe as just remarked it might be observed on the other side, that there was none in which the Government was restrained on this head.

Mr. Read, thought the words, if not struck out, would be as alarming as the mark of the Beast in Revelations.

Mr. Langdon had rather reject the whole plan than retain the three words “(and emit bills”). 13

On the motion for striking out

N. H. ay- Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N-J. no. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. no. Va. ay. * N. C- ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.]

The clause for borrowing money, agreed to nem. con.

Adjd

McHENRY
16 Augt.

Agreed to Article VII from Sec: 1. to the paragraph “borrow money and emit bills on the credit of the united States inclusive, with the addition of the words “and post roads” and the omission of “ and emit bills ”.

Mr. Martin appeared in convention.

FRIDAY, AUGUST 17, 1787.

JOURNAL
Friday August 17. 1787.

It was moved and seconded to insert the word “joint” before the word “ballot” in the 9 clause of the 1 sect. 7 article

which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 7; noes — 3.]

It was moved and seconded to strike out the 9 clause of the 1. sect. of the 7 article

which passed in the negative [Ayes — 4; noes — 6.]

[To strike out the words “and punishmt 11 [12] clause 1 sect 7 art Ayes — 7; noes — 3.] 1

It was moved and seconded to alter the first part of the 12th clause 1 sect. 7 article to read as follows

“To punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas”

which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 7; noes — 3.]

It was moved and seconded to insert the words “define and” between the word “To” and the word “punish” in the 12 clause

which passed in the affirmative

It was moved and seconded to amend the second part of the 12 clause as follows

“To punish the counterfeiting of the securities and current coin of the United States, and offences against the law of nations”

which passed in the affirmative

[“or without, when the Legislature cannot. Ayes — 5; noes — 3; divided — 2.] 2

On the question to agree to the 13 clause of the 1st sect. 7 article amended as follows

“To subdue a rebellion in any State against the government thereof on the application of it’s Legislature, or without when the Legislature cannot meet”

it passed in the negative [Ayes — 4; noes — 5.]

[“To subdue rebellion” Ayes — 2; noes — 4; divided — 1.] 3

It was moved and seconded to strike out the word “make” and to insert the word “declare” in the 14th clause

which passed in the negative [Ayes — 4; noes — 5.]

It was moved and seconded to strike out the 14 clause

which passed in the negative.

The question being again taken to strike out the word “make” and to insert the word “declare” in the 14. clause

it passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 8; noes — 1.]

It was moved and seconded to add the words

“and to make peace” to the 14 clause

which passed in the negative [Ayes — 0; noes — 10.]

Separate questions having been taken on the 9, 10, 11, 12, and 14 clauses of the 1st section, 7 article as amended.

They passed in the affirmative

And the House adjourned till to-morrow at 11 o’Clock A. M.

D ETAIL OF A YES AND N OES
New Hampshire Massachusetts Rhode Island Connecticut New York New Jersey Pennsylvania Delaware Maryland Virginia No Carolina So Carolina Georgia Questions ayes noes divided
[306] aye aye no no aye no aye aye aye aye To appoint a Treasurer by joint ballot 7 3
[307] no no no aye aye aye no no aye no To strike out the 9 clause of ye 1 sect 7 article 4 6
[308] no aye no aye aye no aye aye aye aye To strike out the words “and punishmt 11 clause 1 sect 7 art 7 3
[309] aye aye no aye aye aye no no aye aye To punish piracies felonies committed on the high seas. 7 3
[310] aye no aye dd no no aye dd aye aye “or without, when the Legislature cannot. 5 3 2
[311] aye no aye no no aye no no aye To agree to the 13 clause as amended
[312] aye no no no dd aye no “To subdue rebellion”
[313] no no aye aye no aye aye no no To strike out “make” to insert “declare” 4 5
[314] no aye aye aye aye aye aye aye aye The last question repeated 8 1
[315] no no no no no no no no no no To add “to make peace” to ye 12 clause

MADISON
Friday August 17th. in Convention

Art VII. sect. 1. resumed. On the clause “to appoint Treasurer by ballot”.

Mr Ghorum moved to insert “joint” before ballot, as more convenient as well as reasonable, than to require the separate concurrence of the Senate.

Mr. Pinkney 2ds. the motion. Mr Sherman opposed it as favoring the larger States.

Mr. Read moved to strike out the clause, leaving the appointment of the Treasurer as of other officers to the Executive. The Legislature was an improper body for appointments. Those of the State legislatures were a proof of it— The Executive being responsible would make a good choice.

Mr Mercer 2ds. the motion of Mr Read.

On the motion for inserting the word “joint” before ballot

N. H- ay. Mas. ay. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Md. no. Va. ay- N- C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo- ay- [Ayes — 7; noes — 3.]

Col. Mason in opposition to Mr. Reads motion desired it might be considered to whom the money would belong; if to the people, the legislature representing the people ought to appoint the keepers of it.

On striking out the clause as amended by inserting “Joint”

N. H. no- Mas. no. Ct. no. Pa. ay- Del- ay. Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. no. S- C- ay. Geo. no- [Ayes — 4; noes — 6.]

“To constitute inferior tribunals” agreed to nem. con.

“To make rules as to captures on land water”- do do

“To declare the law and punishment of piracies and felonies c” c considered.

Mr. 〈Madison〉 moved to strike out “and punishment” c-

Mr. Mason doubts the safety of it, considering the strict rule of construction in criminal cases. He doubted also the propriety of taking the power in all these cases wholly from the States.

Mr Governr Morris thought it would be necessary to extend the authority farther, so as to provide for the punishment of counterfeiting in general. Bills of exchange for example might be forged in one State and carried into another:

It was suggested by some other member that foreign paper might be counterfeited by Citizens; and that it might be politic to provide by national authority for the punishment of it.

Mr Randolph did not conceive that expunging “the punishment” would be a constructive exclusion of the power. He doubted only the efficacy of the word “declare”.

Mr Wilson was in favor of the motion- Strictness was not necessary in giving authority to enact penal laws; though necessary in enacting expounding them.

On motion for striking out “and punishment” as moved by Mr 〈Madison〉

N. H. no. Mas. ay. Ct no. Pa ay. Del. ay- Md no. Va. ay. N- C- ay. S- C. ay- Geo. ay. [Ayes — 7; noes — 3.]

Mr Govr Morris moved to strike out “declare the law” and insert “punish” before “piracies”. and on the question

N- H- ay. Mas- ay. Ct. no. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md ay. Va. no. N. C- no. S. C- ay. Geo- ay. [Ayes — 7; noes — 3.]

Mr. M〈adison,〉 and Mr. Randolph moved to insert, “define .” before “punish”.

Mr. Wilson thought “felonies” sufficiently defined by Common law.

Mr. Dickenson concurred with Mr Wilson

Mr Mercer was in favor of the amendment.

Mr M〈adison.〉 felony at common law is vague. 4 It is also defective. One defect is supplied by Stat: of Anne as to running away with vessels which at common law was a breach of trust only. Besides no foreign law should be a standard farther than is expressly adopted — If the laws of the States were to prevail on this subject, the citizens of different States would be subject to different punishments for the same offence at sea — There would be neither uniformity nor stability in the law — The proper remedy for all these difficulties was to vest the power proposed by the term “define” in the Natl. legislature.

Mr Govr. Morris would prefer designate to define, the latter being as he conceived, limited to the preexisting meaning. —— It was said by others to be applicable to the creating of offences also, and therefore suited the case both of felonies of piracies. 〈The motion of Mr. M. Mr. R was agreed to.〉 5

Mr. Elseworth enlarged the motion so as to read “to define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the U. States, and offences agst. the law of Nations” which was agreed to, nem con.

“To subdue a rebellion in any State, on the application of its legislature”

Mr Pinkney moved to strike out “on the application of its legislature”

Mr Govr. Morris 2ds.

Mr L- Martin opposed it as giving a dangerous unnecessary power. The consent of the State ought to precede the introduction of any extraneous force whatever.

Mr. Mercer supported the opposition of Mr. Martin.

Mr Elseworth proposed to add after “legislature” “or Executive”.

Mr Govr Morris. The Executive may possibly be at the head of the Rebellion. The Genl Govt. should enforce obedience in all cases where it may be necessary.

Mr. Ellsworth. In many cases The Genl. Govt. ought not to be able to interpose unless called upon. He was willing to vary his motion so as to read, “〈or without it〉 6 when the legislature cannot meet.”

Mr. Gerry was agst. letting loose the myrmidons of the U. States on a State without its own consent. The States will be the best Judges in such cases. More blood would have been spilt in Massts in the late insurrection, if the Genl. authority had intermeddled.

Mr. Langdon was for striking out as moved by Mr. Pinkney. The apprehension of the national force, will have a salutary effect in preventing insurrections.

Mr Randolph- If the Natl. Legislature is to judge whether the State legislature can or cannot meet, that amendment would make the clause as objectionable as the motion of Mr Pinkney.

Mr. Govr. Morris. We are acting a very strange part. We first form a strong man to protect us, and at the same time wish to tie his hands behind him, The legislature may surely be trusted with such a power to preserve the public tranquillity.

On the motion to add “or without it (application) when the legislature cannot meet”

N. H. ay. Mas. no. Ct ay. Pa. divd. Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N- C. divd. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 5; noes — 3; divided — 2.] so agreed to —

Mr. 〈Madison〉 and Mr. Dickenson moved 〈to insert as explanatory,〉 after “State” — “against the Government thereof” There might be a rebellion agst the U- States. — 〈which was〉 Agreed to nem- con.

On the clause as amended

N. H. ay. Mas- * abst. Ct ay. Pen. abst. Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N- C. no. S. C. no- Georg. ay — 〈so it was〉 lost

[Ayes — 4; noes — 4; absent — 2.]

“To 7 make war”

Mr Pinkney opposed the vesting this power in the Legislature. 8 Its proceedings were too slow. It wd. meet but once a year. The Hs. of Reps. would be too numerous for such deliberations. The Senate would be the best depositary, being more acquainted with foreign affairs, and most capable of proper resolutions. If the States are equally represented in Senate, so as to give no advantage to large States, the power will notwithstanding be safe, as the small have their all at stake in such cases as well as the large States. It would be singular for one- authority to make war, and another peace.

Mr Butler. The Objections agst the Legislature lie in a great degree agst the Senate. He was for vesting the power in the President, who will have all the requisite qualities, and will not make war but when the Nation will support it.

Mr. M〈adison〉 and Mr Gerry moved to insert “ declare, ” striking out “ make ” war; leaving to the Executive the power to repel sudden attacks.

Mr Sharman thought it stood very well. The Executive shd. be able to repel and not to commence war. “Make” better than “declare” the latter narrowing the power too much.

Mr Gerry never expected to hear in a republic a motion to empower the Executive alone to declare war.

Mr. Elseworth. there is a material difference between the cases of making war, and making peace. It shd. be more easy to get out of war, than into it. War also is a simple and overt declaration. peace attended with intricate secret negociations.

Mr. Mason was agst giving the power of war to the Executive, because not 〈safely〉 to be trusted with it; or to the Senate, because not so constructed as to be entitled to it. He was for clogging rather than facilitating war; but for facilitating peace. He preferred “ declare ” to “ make ”.

On the Motion to insert declare — in place of Make, 〈it was agreed to.〉

N. H. no. Mas. abst. Cont. no. * Pa ay. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo- ay. [Ayes — 7; noes —2; absent — 1.]

Mr. Pinkney’s motion to strike out whole clause, disagd. to without call of States.

Mr Butler moved to give the Legislature power of peace, as they were to have that of war.

Mr Gerry 2ds. him. 8 Senators may possibly exercise the power if vested in that body, and 14 if all should be present; and may consequently give up part of the U. States. The Senate are more liable to be corrupted by an Enemy than the whole Legislature.

On the motion for adding “and peace” after “war”

N. H. no. Mas. no. Ct. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. 〈no〉 9 S. C no. Geo. no. [Ayes — o; noes — 10.]

Adjourned

McHENRY
August 17.

Agreed “to appoint a treasurer by joint Ballot; To constitute tribunals inferior to the supreme court; To make rules concerning captures on land and water;

expunged the next section and inserted

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas;

To punish counterfeiting the securities and the current coin of the United States.

Struck out the clause To subdue a rebellion etc.

Debated the difference between a power to declare war, and to make war — amended by substituting declare — adjourned without a question on the clause.

SATURDAY, AUGUST 18, 1787.

JOURNAL
Saturday August 18. 1787.

The following additional powers proposed to be vested in the Legislature of the United States having been submitted to the consideration of the Convention — It was moved and seconded to refer them to the Committee to whom the proceedings of the Convention were referred

which passed in the affirmative

The propositions are as follows

To dispose of the unappropriated lands of the United States

To institute temporary governments for new States arising thereon

To regulate affairs with the Indians as well within as without the limits of the United States

To exercise exclusively Legislative authority at the seat of the general Government, and over a district around the same, not exceeding square miles: the consent of the Legislature of the State or States comprising such district being first obtained

To grant charters of incorporation in cases where the public good may require them, and the authority of a single State may be incompetent

To secure to literary authors their copy rights for a limited time

To establish an University

To encourage, by proper premiums and provisions, the advancement of useful knowledge and discoveries

To authorise the Executive to procure and hold for the use of the United States landed property for the erection of forts, magazines, and other necessary buildings

To fix and permanently establish the seat of Government of the United-States in which they shall possess the exclusive right of soil and jurisdiction

To establish seminaries for the promotion of literature and the arts and sciences

To grant charters of incorporation

To grant patents for useful inventions

To secure to authors exclusive rights for a certain time

To establish public institutions, rewards and immunities for the promotion of agriculture, commerce, trades, and manufactures.

That Funds which shall be appropriated for payment of public Creditors shall not during the time of such appropriation be diverted or applied to any other purpose — and to prepare a clause or clauses for restraining the Legislature of the United States from establishing a perpetual revenue

To secure the payment of the public debt.

To secure all Creditors, under the new Constitution, from a violation of the public faith. when pledged by the authority of the Legislature

To grant letters of marque and reprisal

To regulate Stages on the post-roads.

It was moved and seconded That a Committee to consist of a Member from each State be appointed to consider the necessity and expediency of the debts of the several States being assumed by the United States

which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 6; noes — 4; divided — 1.] 1

and a Committee was appointed by ballot of the honorable Mr Langdon, Mr King, Mr Sherman, Mr Livingston, Mr Clymer, Mr Dickinson, Mr Mc Henry, Mr Mason, Mr Williamson, Mr C. C. Pinckney, and Mr Baldwin.

It was moved and seconded to agree to the following resolution, namely

Resolved That this Convention will meet punctually at 10 o’clock every morning (Sundays excepted) and sit till four o’clock in the afternoon, at which time the President shall adjourn the Convention and that no motion for adjournment be allowed.

which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.]

It was moved and seconded to insert the words “and support” between the word “raise” and the word “armies” in the 14. clause, 1 sect, 7 article

which passed in the affirmative

It was moved and seconded to strike out the words “build and equip” and to insert the words “provide and maintain” in the 15 clause, 1 sect. 7 article

which passed in the affirmative

It was moved and seconded to insert the following as a 16th clause, in the 1 sect. of the 7. article

“To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces”

which passed in the affirmative

It was moved and seconded to annex the following proviso to the last clause

“provided that in time of peace the army shall not consist of more than thousand men”

which passed 2 in the negative.

It was moved and seconded to insert the following as a clause in the 1 sect. of the 7 article

“to make laws for regulating and disciplining the militia of the several States, reserving to the several States the appointment of their militia Officers”

It was moved and seconded to postpone the last clause in order to take up the following

“To establish an uniformity of exercise and arms for the militia — and rules for their government when called into service under the authority of the United States: and to establish and regulate a militia in any State where it’s Legislature shall neglect to do it”

It was moved and seconded to refer the last two motions to a Committee

which passed in the affirmative

and they were referred to the Committee of eleven. [Ayes — 8; noes — 2; divided — 1.]

And then the House adjourned till monday next at 10 o’clock A. M.

D ETAIL OF A YES AND N OES .
New Hampshire Massachusetts Rhode Island Connecticut New York New Jersey Pennsylvania Delaware Maryland Virginia No Carolina So Carolina Georgia Questions ayes noes divided
[316] no aye aye no dd no no aye aye aye aye To refer Mr Rutledge’s proposition respecting the public debt to a Committee of a Member from each State 6 4 1
[317] aye aye aye aye no aye no aye aye aye aye To meet at 10 o’clock to adjourn at 4. 9 2
[318] aye aye no no aye aye dd aye aye aye aye To commit the two motions respectg militia to the Committee of 11. 8 2 1

MADISON
Saturday August 18. in Convention

〈Mr- Madison 3 submitted in order to be referred to the Committee of detail the following powers as proper to be added to those of the General Legislature

“To dispose of the unappropriated lands of the U. States”

“To institute temporary Governments for New States arising therein”

“To regulate affairs with the Indians as well within as without the limits of the U. States

“To exercise exclusively Legislative authority at the seat of the General Government, and over a district around the same not, exceeding square miles; the Consent of the Legislature of the State or States comprising the same, being first obtained”

“To grant charters of incorporation in cases where the Public good may require them, and the authority of a single State may be incompetent”

“To secure to literary authors their copyrights for a limited time”

“To establish an University”

“To encourage by premiums provisions, the advancement of useful knowledge and discoveries”

“To authorize the Executive to procure and hold for the use of the U — S. landed property for the erection of Forts, Magazines, and other necessary buildings”

These propositions were referred to the Committee of detail which had prepared the Report and at the same time the following which were moved by Mr. Pinkney: 4 — in both cases unanimously.

“To fix and permanently establish the seat of Government of the U. S. in which they shall possess the exclusive right of soil jurisdiction”

“To establish seminaries for the promotion of literature and the arts sciences”

“To grant charters of incorporation”

“To grant patents for useful inventions”

“To secure to Authors exclusive rights for a certain time”

“To establish public institutions, rewards and immunities for the promotion of agriculture, commerce, trades and manufactures”

“That funds which shall be appropriated for the payment of public Creditors, shall not during the time of such appropriation, be diverted or applied to any other purpose- and that the Committee prepare a clause or clauses for restraining the Legislature of the U. S. from establishing a perpetual revenue”

“To secure the payment of the public debt”

“To secure all creditors under the New Constitution from a violation of the public faith when pledged by the authority of the Legislature”

“To grant letters of mark and reprisal”

“To regulate Stages on the post roads”〉

Mr Mason introduced the subject of regulating the militia. 5 He thought such a power necessary to be given to the Genl. Government. He hoped there would be no standing army in time of peace, unless it might be for a few garrisons. The Militia ought therefore to be the more effectually prepared for the public defence. Thirteen States will never concur in any one system, if the displining of the Militia be left in their hands. If they will not give up the power over the whole, they probably will over a part as a select militia. He moved as an addition to the propositions just referred to the Committee of detail, to be referred in like manner, “a power to regulate the militia”.

Mr. Gerry remarked that some provision ought to be made in favor of public Securities, 6 and something inserted concerning letters of marque, which he thought not included in the power of war. He proposed that these subjects should also go to a Committee.

Mr. Rutlidge moved to refer a clause “that funds appropriated to public creditors should not be diverted to other purposes.”

Mr. Mason was much attached to the principle, but was afraid such a fetter might be dangerous in time of war. He suggested the necessity of preventing the danger of perpetual revenue which must of necessity subvert the liberty of any Country. If it be objected to on the principal of Mr. Rutlidge’s motion that Public Credit may require perpetual provisions, that case might be excepted; it being declared that in other cases, no taxes should be laid for a longer term than years. He considered the caution observed in Great Britain on this point as the paladium of the public liberty.

Mr. Rutlidge’s motion was referred — He then moved that a Grand Committee 〈be appointed to〉 consider the necessity and expediency of the U- States assuming all the State debts — A regular settlement between the Union the several States would never take place. The assumption would be just as the State debts were contracted in the common defence. It was necessary, as the taxes on imports the only sure source of revenue were to be given up to the Union. It was politic, as by disburdening the people of the State debts it would conciliate them to the plan.

Mr. King and Mr Pinkney seconded the motion

(Col. Mason interposed a motion that the Committee prepare a clause for restraining perpetual revenue, which was agreed to nem- con.)

Mr. Sherman thought it would be better to authorize the Legislature to assume the State debts, than to say positively it should be done. He considered the measure as just and that it would have a good effect to say something about the Matter.

Mr. Elseworth differed from Mr. Sherman — As far as the State debts ought in equity to be assumed, he conceived that they might and would be so.

Mr. Pinkney observed that a great part of the State debts were of such a nature that although in point of policy and true equity 〈they ought〉, yet would they not be viewed in the light of fœderal expenditures.

Mr. King thought the matter of more consequence than Mr Elseworth seemed to do; and that it was well worthy of commitment. Besides the considerations of justice and policy which had been mentioned. it might be remarked that the State Creditors an active and formidable party would otherwise be opposed to a plan which transferred to the Union the best resources of the States without transferring the State debts at the same time. The State Creditors had generally been the strongest foes to the impost-plan. The State debts probably were of greater amount than the fœderal. He would not say that it was practicable to consolidate the debts, but he thought it would be prudent to have the subject considered by a Committee.

On Mr. Rutlidge’s motion, that Come be appointed to consider of the assumption c

N. H. no. Mas. ay- Ct ay. N- J. no. Pa divd. Del. no. Md no. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C ay. Geo- ay. [Ayes — 6; noes — 4; divided — 1.]

Mr. Gerry’s motion to provide for 7 〈public securities〉 for stages on post-roads, and for letters of marque and reprisal, were committed nem. con.

Mr. King suggested that all unlocated lands of particular States ought to be given up if State debts were to be assumed. — Mr Williamson concurred in the idea.

A Grand Committee was appointed consisting of 〈(The Come. appointed by ballot were — Mr. Langdon, Mr. King, Mr. Sharman. Mr. Livingston. Mr. Clymer, Mr. Dickenson, Mr. McHenry, Mr. Mason, Mr- Williamson, Mr. C. C. Pinkney, Mr. Baldwin.)〉 8

Mr. Rutlidge remarked on the length of the Session, the probable impatience of the public and the extreme anxiety of many members of the Convention to bring the business to an end; concluding with a motion that the Convention meet henceforward, precisely at 10 oC. A. M. and that precisely at 4 oC. P. M., the President adjourn the House without motion for the purpose. and that no motion to adjourn sooner be allowed 9

On this question

N- H. ay. Mas- ay. Ct ay. N. J- ay. Pa. no- Del. ay. Md no. Va. ay. N- C- ay. S. C. ay- Geo. ay.

[Ayes — 9; noes — 2.]

Mr. Elseworth observed that a Council had not yet been provided for the President. He conceived there ought to be one. His proposition was that it should be composed of the President of the Senate- the Chief-Justice, and the Ministers as they might be estabd. for the departments of foreign domestic affairs, war finance, and marine, who should advise but not conclude the President.

Mr Pinkney wished the proposition to lie over, as notice had been given for a like purpose by Mr. Govr. Morris who was not then on the floor. His own idea was that the President shd. be authorized to call for advice or not as he might chuse. Give him an able Council and it will thwart him; a weak one and he will shelter himself under their sanction.

Mr Gerry was agst. letting the heads of the departments, particularly of finance have any thing to do in business connected with legislation. He mentioned the Chief Justice also as particularly exceptionable. These men will also be so taken up with other matters as to neglect their own proper duties.

Mr. Dickenson urged that the great appointments should be made by the Legislature, in which case they might properly be consulted by the Executive — but not if made by the Executive himself — This subject by general Consent lay over; the House proceeded to the clause “To raise armies”.

Mr. Ghorum moved to add “and support” after “raise”. Agreed to nem. con. and then the clause agreed to nem- con- as amended

Mr Gerry took notice that there was 〈no〉 check here agst. standing armies in time of peace. The existing Congs. is so constructed that it cannot of itself maintain an army. This wd. not be the case under the new system. The people were jealous on this head, and great opposition to the plan would spring from such an omission. He suspected that preparations of force were now making agst. it. (he seemed to allude to the activity of the Govr. of N. York at this crisis in disciplining the militia of that State.) He thought an army dangerous in time of peace could never consent to a power to keep up an indefinite number. He proposed that there shall not be kept up in time of peace more than thousand troops. His idea was that the blank should be filled with two or three thousand.

Instead of “to build and equip fleets” — “to provide maintain a navy” agreed to nem. con as a more convenient definition of the power.

“To make rules for the Government and regulation of the land naval forces,” — added from the existing Articles of Confederation.

Mr. L. Martin and Mr. Gerry now regularly moved “provided that in time of peace the army shall not consist of more than thousand men.” 10

Genl. Pinkney asked whether no troops were ever to be raised untill an attack should be made on us?

Mr. Gerry. if there be no restriction, a few States may establish a military Govt.

Mr. Williamson, reminded him of Mr. Mason’s motion for limiting the appropriation of revenue as the best guard in this case.

Mr. Langdon saw no room for Mr. Gerry’s distrust of the Representatives of the people.

Mr. Dayton. preparations for war are generally made in peace; and a standing force of some sort may, for ought we know, become unavoidable. He should object to no restrictions consistent with these ideas.

The motion of Mr. Martin Mr. Gerry was disagreed to nem. con.

Mr. Mason moved as an additional power “to make laws for the regulation and discipline of the Militia of the several States reserving to the States the appointment of the Officers”. He considered uniformity as necessary in the regulation of the Militia throughout the Union.

Genl Pinkney mentioned a case during the war in which a dissimilarity in the militia of different States had produced the most serious mischiefs. Uniformity was essential. The States would never keep up a proper discipline of their militia.

Mr. Elseworth was for going as far in submitting the militia to the Genl Government as might be necessary, but thought the motion of Mr. Mason went too far. He 〈moved〉 that the militia should have the same arms 〈 exercise and be under rules established by the Genl Govt. when in actual service of the U. States and when States neglect to provide regulations for militia, it shd. be regulated established by the Legislature of U. S.〉 11 The whole authority over the Militia ought by no means to be taken away from the States whose consequence would pine away to nothing after such a sacrifice of power. He thought the Genl Authority could not sufficiently pervade the Union for such a purpose, nor could it accommodate itself to the local genius of the people. It must be vain to ask the States to give the Militia out of their hands.

Mr Sherman 2ds. the motion.

Mr Dickenson. We are come now to a most important matter, that of the sword. His opinion was that the States never would nor ought to give up all authority over the Militia. He proposed to restrain the general power to one fourth part at a time, which by rotation would discipline the whole Militia.

Mr. Butler urged the necessity of submitting the whole Militia to the general Authority, which had the care of the general defence.

Mr. Mason- had suggested the idea of a select militia. He was led to think that would be in fact as much as the Genl. Govt could advantageously be charged with. He was afraid of creating insuperable objections to the plan. He withdrew his original motion, and moved a power “to make laws for regulating and disciplining the militia, not exceeding one tenth part in any one year, and reserving the appointment of officers to the States.”

Genl Pinkney, renewed Mr. Mason’s original motion. For a part to be under the genl. and a part under the State Govts. wd be an incurable evil. he saw no room for such distrust of the Genl Govt.

Mr. Langdon 2ds. Genl. Pinkney’s renewal. He saw no more reason to be afraid of the Genl. Govt than of the State Govts. He was more apprehensive of the confusion of the different authorities on this subject, than of either.

Mr Madison thought the regulation of the Militia naturally appertaining to the authority charged with the public defence. It did not seem in its nature to be divisible between two distinct authorities. If the States would trust the Genl. Govt. with a power over the public treasure, they would from the same consideration of necessity grant it the direction of the public force. Those who had a full view of the public situation wd. from a sense of the danger, guard agst. it: the States would not be separately impressed with the general situation, nor have the due confidence in the concurrent exertions of each other.

Mr. Elseworth- considered the idea of a select militia as impracticable; if it were not it would be followed by a ruinous declension of the great body of the Militia. The States will never submit to the same militia laws. Three or four shilling’s as a penalty will enforce obedience better in New England, than forty lashes in some other places.

Mr. Pinkney thought the power such an one as could not be abused, and that the States would see the necessity of surrendering it. He had however but a scanty faith in Militia. There must be 〈also〉 a real military force — This alone can 〈effectually answer the purpose.〉 The United States had been making an experiment without it, and we see the consequence in their rapid approaches toward anarchy. *

Mr Sherman, took notice that the States might want their Militia for defence agst invasions and insurrections, and for enforcing obedience to their laws. They will not give up this point- In giving up that of taxation, they retain a concurrent power of raising money for their own use.

Mr. Gerry thought this the last point remaining to be surrendered. If it be agreed to by the Convention, the plan will have as black a mark as was set on Cain. He had no such confidence in the Genl. Govt. as some Gentlemen possessed, and believed it would be found that the States have not.

Col. Mason. thought there was great weight in the remarks of Mr. Sherman- and moved an exception to his motion “of such part of the Militia as might be required by the States for their own use.”

Mr. Read doubted the propriety of leaving the appointment of the Militia officers in the States. In some States they are elected by the legislatures; in others by the people themselves. He thought at least an appointment by the State Executives ought to be insisted on.

On committing to the grand Committee last appointed, the latter motion of Col. Mason, the original one revived by Gel Pinkney

N. H- ay. Mas. ay. Ct no. N- J. no. Pa ay. Del. ay. Md. divd. Va ay. N. C. ay- S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 8; noes — 2; divided — 1.]

Adjourned 12

McHENRY
Augt. 18.

To make war, to raise armies “to build and equip fleets amended to “declare war, to raise and support armies, to provide and maintain fleets” to which was added “to make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces.

The next clause postponed.

MONDAY, AUGUST 20, 1787.

JOURNAL
Monday August 20th. 1787.

It was moved and seconded to refer the following propositions to the Committee of five.

which passed in the affirmative.

Each House shall be the Judge of it’s own privileges, and shall have authority to punish by imprisonment every person violating the same: or who, in the place where the Legislature may be sitting and during the time of it’s session, shall threaten any of it’s members for any thing said or done in the House: or who shall assault any of them therefor — or who shall assault, or arrest any witness or other person ordered to attend either of the House in his way going or returning; or who shall rescue any person arrested by their order. Each Branch of the Legislature, as well as the supreme Executive shall have authority to require the opinions of the supreme Judicial Court upon important questions of law, and upon solemn occasions

The privileges and benefit of the writ of habeas corpus shall be enjoyed in this government in the most expeditious and ample manner: and shall not be suspended by the Legislature except upon the most urgent and pressing occasions, and for a limited time not exceeding months.

The liberty of the Press shall be inviolably preserved.

No Troops shall be kept up in time of peace, but by consent of the Legislature

The military shall always be subordinate to the civil power, and no grants of money shall be made by the Legislature for supporting military land forces for more than one year at a time

No Soldier shall be quartered in any house in time of peace without consent of the Owner.

No person holding the Office of President of the United States — a Judge of their supreme Court — Secretary for the Department of foreign affairs — of Finance — of Marine — of War — or of

shall be capable of holding at the same time any other office of trust or emolument under the United States, or an individual State.

No religious test or qualification shall ever be annexed to any oath of office under the authority of the United States:

The United States shall be for ever considered as one Body-corporate and politic in law, and entitled to all the rights, privileges and immunities which to Bodies Corporate do, or ought to appertain.

The Legislature of the United States shall have the power of making the great seal, which shall be kept by the President of the United States or in his absence by the President of the Senate, to be used by them as the occasion may require ——— It shall be called the great Seal of the United-States and shall be affixed to all laws.

all commissions and writs shall run in the name of the United States.

The jurisdiction of the supreme court shall be extended to all controversies between the United States and an individual State — or the United States and the Citizen of an individual State.

To assist the President in conducting the Public affairs there shall be a Council of State composed of the following Officers.

1. The Chief Justice of the supreme Court, who shall from time to time recommend such alterations of, and additions to, the Laws of the United-States as may in his opinion be necessary to the due administration of Justice, and such as may promote useful learning and inculcate sound morality throughout the Union: He shall be President of the Council in the absence of the President.

2. The Secretary of domestic-affairs who shall be appointed by the President and hold his office during pleasure It shall be his duty to attend to matters of general police, the state of agriculture and manufactures, the opening of roads and navigations, and the facilitating communications through the United States, and he shall from time to time recommend such measures and establishments as may tend to promote those objects.

3 The Secretary of Commerce and Finance who shall also be appointed by the President during pleasure. It shall be his duty to superintend all matters relating to the public finances, to prepare and report Plans of revenue and for the regulation of expenditures, and also to recommend such things as may in his judgment promote the commercial interests of the United-States.

4. The Secretary of foreign affairs who shall also be appointed by the President during pleasure — It shall be his duty to correspond with all foreign Ministers, prepare plans of Treaties, and consider such as may be transmitted from abroad — and generally to attend to the Interests of the United States, in their connections with foreign Powers.

5. The Secretary of war who shall also be appointed by the President during pleasure. — It shall be his duty to superintend every thing relating to the war Department such as the raising and equipping of Troops, the care of military Stores, public Fortifications, arsenals, and the like — also in time of war to prepare and recommend Plans of offence and defence.

6 The Secretary of the Marine who shall also be appointed by the President during pleasure — It shall be his duty to superintend every thing relating to the marine Department, the public ships, Dock-yards, naval stores, and Arsenals — also in time of war to prepare and recommend Plans of offence and defence.

The President shall also appoint a Secretary of State to hold his office during pleasure; who shall be Secretary of the Council of State, and also public Secretary to the President. — It shall be his duty to prepare all public dispatches from the President, which he shall countersign.

The President may from time to time submit any matter to the discussion of the Council of State, and he may require the written opinions of any one or more of the Members; But he shall in all cases exercise his own judgment, and either conform to such opinions or not as he may think proper: and every officer above mentioned shall be responsible for his opinion on the affairs relating to his particular Department.

Each of the Officers abovementioned shall be liable to impeachment and removal from office for neglect of duty, malversation, or corruption

That the Committee be directed to report qualifications for the President of the United-States — and a mode for trying the supreme Judges in cases of impeachment.

It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the 17 clause, 1 sect. 7 article

which passed in the affirmative

It was moved and seconded to insert the following clause in the 1. sect. 7 article

“To make sumptuary laws”

which passed in the negative [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]

It was moved and seconded to insert the following clause in the 1st sect. of the 7 article

“To establish all offices”

which passed in the negative [Ayes — 2; noes — 9.]

On the question to agree to the last clause of the 1st sect. 7 article, as reported,

it passed in the affirmative.

[To commit the 2nd section 7 article Ayes — 5; noes — 5; divided — 1.] 1

It was moved and seconded to insert the words “some overt-act of” after the word “in” in the 2 sect. 7 article and to strike out the word “and” before the words “in adhering” and to insert the word “or”

which passed in the affirmative 2

It was moved and seconded to strike out the words “or any of them” 2 section 7 article

which passed in the affirmative

It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the 2nd sect. 7 article in order to take up the following.

“Whereas it is essential to the preservation of Liberty to define precisely and exclusively what shall constitute the crime of Treason it is therefore ordained declared and established that if a man do levy war against the United States within their Territories or be adherent to the enemies of the United States within the said territories giving to them aid and comfort within their Territories or elsewhere, and thereof be provably attainted of open deed by the People of his condition he shall be adjudged guilty of treason”

On the question to postpone

it passed in the negative. [Ayes — 2; noes — 8.]

It was moved and seconded to strike out the words “against the United States” 1st line, 2 sect. 7 article

which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 8; noes — 2.]

It was moved and seconded to insert the words “to the same overt-act.” after the word “witnesses” 2 sect. 7 article

which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 8; noes — 3.]

It was moved and seconded to strike the words “some overt-act” out of the 1st line, 2 sect. 7 article 3

which passed in the affirmative

It was moved and seconded to insert the words

“Sole and exclusive” before the word “power” in the 2 clause, 2 sect, 7 article.

which passed in the negative [Ayes — 5; noes — 6.]

It was moved and seconded to re-instate the words

“against the United States” in the first line, 2 sect. 7 article

which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 6; noes — 5.]

It was moved and seconded to strike out the words “of the United States” in the 3rd line 2 sect. 7 article

which passed in the affirmative

It was moved and seconded to amend the 1st clause of the 2 sect. 7 article to read

“Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies”

which passed in the affirmative

It was moved and seconded to add the words

“giving them aid and comfort” after the word “enemies” in the 2 section, 7 article.

which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 8; noes — 3.]

It was moved and seconded to add after the words “overt act” the words “or on confession in open court” 2 section, 7 article.

which passed in the affirmative [Ayes — 7; noes — 3; divided — 1.]

On the question to agree to the 2nd section of the 7 article as amended

it passed in the affirmative.

It was moved and seconded to strike the words

“white and other” out of the 3rd sect. 7 article

which passed in the affirmative.

It was moved and seconded to strike out the word

“six” and to insert the word “three” in the 3rd section of the 7 article.

which passed in the affirmative. [Ayes — 9; noes — 2.]

It was moved and seconded to add the following clause to the 3rd section of the 7 article

“That from the first meeting of the Legislature of the United States until a Census shall be taken, all monies for supplying the public Treasury, by direct taxation shall be raised from the several States according to the number of their representatives respectively in the first Branch”

Before a question was taken on the last motion

The House adjourned.

D ETAIL OF A YES AND N OES
New Hampshire Massachusetts Rhode Island Connecticut New York New Jersey Pennsylvania Delaware Maryland Virginia No Carolina So Carolina Georgia Questions ayes noes divided
[319] no no no no no aye aye no no no aye “To make sumptuary laws” 3 8
[320] no aye no no no no aye no no no no To establish all Offices” 2 9
[321] no no no aye aye no aye aye dd no aye To commit the 2nd section 7 article. 5 5 1
[322] no no aye no no no aye no no no To postpone ye 2nd sect. 7 art. to take up a substitute 2 8
[323] aye aye aye aye aye aye no no aye aye To strike out “agt the United States” 1st line 2 sect. 7 article 8 2
[324] aye aye aye no aye aye aye no no aye aye “To the same overt act” 8 3
[325] aye aye no no aye aye no no no aye no To insert the words “sole exclusive” before the word power” 2 sect. 7 article 5 6
[326] no no aye aye no no aye aye aye no aye To reinstate the words “against the United States” 6 5
[327] aye aye no aye aye no aye aye aye aye no “and comfort” 8 3
[328] aye no aye aye aye aye aye aye dd no no “or on confession in open Court” 7 3 1
[329] aye aye aye aye aye aye aye aye aye no no To strike out “six” and insert “three” 3 sect, 7 article 9 2

MADISON
Monday August 20 — in Convention.

〈Mr. Pinkney 4 submitted to the House, in order to be referred to the Committee of detail, the following propositions — “Each House shall be the Judge of its own privileges, and shall have authority to punish by imprisonment every person violating the same; or who, in the place where the Legislature may be sitting and during the time of its Session, shall threaten any of its members for any thing said or done in the House, or who shall assault any of them therefor — or who shall assault or arrest any witness or other person ordered to attend either of the Houses in his way going or returning; or who shall rescue any person arrested by their order.”

“Each branch of the Legislature, as well as the Supreme Executive shall have authority to require the opinions of the supreme Judicial Court upon important questions of law, and upon solemn occasions”

“The privileges and benefit of the Writ of Habeas corpus shall be enjoyed in this Government in the most expeditious and ample manner; and shall not be suspended by the Legislature except upon the most urgent and pressing occasions, and for a limited time not exceeding months.”

“The liberty of the Press shall be inviolably preserved”

“No troops shall be kept up in time of peace, but by consent of the Legislature”

“The military shall always be subordinate to the Civil power, and no grants of money shall be made by the Legislature for supporting military Land forces, for more than one year at a time”

“No soldier shall be quartered in any House in time of peace without consent of the owner.”

“No person holding the office of President of the U. S., a Judge of their Supreme Court, Secretary for the department of Foreign Affairs, of Finance, of Marine, of War, or of , shall be capable of holding at the same time any other office of Trust or Emolument under the U. S. or an individual State”

“No religious test or qualification shall ever be annexed to any oath of office under the authority of the U. S.”

“The U. S. shall be for ever considered as one Body corporate and politic in law, and entitled to all the rights privileges, and immunities, which to Bodies corporate do or ought to appertain”

“The Legislature of the U. S. shall have the power of making the great Seal which shall be kept by the President of the U. S. or in his absence by the President of the Senate, to be used by them as the occasion may require. — It shall be called the great Seal of the U. S. and shall be affixed to all laws.”

“All Commissions and writs shall run in the name of the U. S.”

“The Jurisdiction of the supreme Court shall be extended to all controversies between the U. S. and an individual State, or the U. S. and the Citizens of an individual State”

These propositions were referred to the Committee of detail without debate or consideration of them, by the House.

Mr. Govr. Morris 2ded. by Mr. Pinkney submitted the following propositions which were in like manner referred to the Committee of Detail.

“To assist the President in conducting the Public affairs there shall be a Council of State composed of the following officers — 1. The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, who shall from time to time recommend such alterations of and additions to the laws of the U. S. as may in his opinion be necessary to the due administration of Justice, and such as may promote useful learning and inculcate sound morality throughout the Union: He shall be President of the Council in the absence of the President

2. The Secretary of Domestic Affairs who shall be appointed by the President and hold his office during pleasure. It shall be his duty to attend to matters of general police, the State of Agriculture and manufactures, the opening of roads and navigations, and the facilitating communications thro’ the U. States; and he shall from time to time recommend such measures and establishments as may tend to promote those objects.

3. The Secretary of Commerce and Finance who shall also be appointed by the President during pleasure. It shall be his duty to superintend all matters relating to the public finances, to prepare report plans of revenue and for the regulation of expenditures, and also to recommend such things as may in his Judgment promote the commercial interests of the U. S.

4. The Secretary of foreign affairs who shall also be appointed by the President during pleasure. It shall be his duty to correspond with all foreign Ministers, prepare plans of Treaties, consider such as may be transmitted from abroad; and generally to attend to the interests of the U- S- in their connections with foreign powers.

5. The Secretary of War who shall also be appointed by the President during pleasure. It shall be his duty to superintend every thing relating to the war-Department, such as the raising and equipping of troops, the care of military Stores — public fortifications, arsenals the like — also in time of war to prepare recommend plans of offence and Defence.

6. The Secretary of the Marine who shall also be appointed during pleasure — It shall be his duty to superintend every thing relating to the Marine-Department, the public Ships, Dock-Yards, Naval-Stores arsenals — also in the time of war to prepare and recommend plans of offence and defence.

The President shall also appoint a Secretary of State to hold his office during pleasure; who shall be Secretary to the Council of State, and also public Secretary to the President. It shall be his duty to prepare all public despatches from the President which he shall countersign

The President may from time to time submit any matter to the discussion of the Council of State, and he may require the written opinions of any one or more of the members: But he shall in all cases exercise his own judgment, and either Conform to such opinions or not as he may think proper; and every officer abovementioned shall be responsible for his opinion on the affairs relating to his particular Department.

Each of the officers abovementioned shall be liable to impeachment removal from office for neglect of duty malversation, or corruption”〉 4 a

Mr Gerry moved “that the Committee be instructed to report proper qualifications for the President, and a mode of trying 〈the Supreme〉 Judges 〈in cases of〉 impeachment. 5

The clause “to call forth the aid of the Militia c- was postponed till report should be made as to the power over the Militia referred yesterday to the Grand Committee 〈of eleven〉.

Mr. Mason moved to enable Congress “to enact sumptuary laws.” No Government can be maintained unless the manners be made consonant to it. Such a discretionary power may do good and can do no harm. A proper regulation of excises of trade may do a great deal but it is best to have an express provision. It was objected to sumptuary laws that they were contrary to nature. This was a vulgar error. The love of distinction it is true is natural; but the object of sumptuary laws is not to extinguish this principle but to give it a proper direction.

Mr. Elseworth, The best remedy is to enforce taxes debts. As far as the regulation of eating drinking can be reasonable, it is provided for in the power of taxation.

Mr Govr. Morris argued that sumptuary laws tended to create a landed Nobility, by fixing in the great-landholders and their posterity their present possessions.

Mr Gerry. the law of necessity is the best sumptuary law.

On Motion of Mr. Mason “as to sumptuary laws”

N. H. no. Mas- no. Ct no. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. no. N- C. no- S. C. no. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 3; noes — 8.]

“And to make all laws necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested, by this Constitution, in the Government of the U. S. or any department or officer thereof.” 6

Mr. M〈adison〉 and Mr. Pinkney moved to insert between “laws” and “necessary” “and establish all offices”. it appearing to them liable to cavil that the latter was not included in the former.

Mr. Govr. Morris. Mr. Wilson, Mr Rutlidge and Mr. Elseworth urged that the amendment could not be necessary.

On the motion for inserting “and establish all offices”

N. H. no. Mas. ay. Ct. no. N. J. no. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. ay. Va. no. N- C- no. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes — 2; noes — 9.]

The clause as reported was then agreed to nem con.

Art: VII sect. 2. concerning Treason which see 7

Mr. M〈adison,〉 thought the definition too narrow. It did not appear to go as far as the Stat. of Edwd. III. He did not see why more latitude might not be left to the Legislature. It wd. be as safe as in the hands of State legislatures; and it was inconvenient to bar a discretion which experience might enlighten, and which might be applied to good purposes as well as be abused.

Mr Mason was for pursuing the Stat: of Edwd. III.

Mr. Govr Morris was for giving to the Union an exclusive right to declare what shd. be treason. In case of a contest between the U- S- and a particular State, the people of the latter must, under the disjunctive terms of the clause, be traitors to 〈one〉 or other authority.

Mr Randolph thought the clause defective in adopting the words “in adhering” only. The British Stat: adds. “giving them aid 〈and〉 8 comfort” which had a more extensive meaning.

Mr. Elseworth considered the definition as the same in fact with that of the Statute.

Mr. Govr Morris “adhering” does not go so far as giving aid 〈and〉 8 a Comfort” or the latter words may be restrictive of “adhering”. in either case the Statute is not pursued.

MrWilson held “giving aid and comfort” to be explanatory, not operative words; and that it was better to omit them —

Mr Dickenson, thought the addition of “giving aid comfort” unnecessary improper; being too vague and extending too far- He wished to know what was meant by the “testimony of two witnesses”, whether they were to be witnesses to the same overt act or to different overt acts. He thought also that proof of an overt-act ought to be expressed as essential in the case.

Docr Johnson considered “giving aid comfort” as explanatory of “adhering” that something should be inserted in the definition concerning overt-acts. He contended that Treason could not be both agst. the U. States — and individual States; being an offence agst the Sovereignty which can be but one in the same community-

Mr. M〈adison〉 remarked that “and” before “in adhering” should be changed into “or” otherwise both offences 〈viz of levying war, of adhering to the Enemy〉 might be necessary to constitute Treason. He added that as the definition here was of treason against the U. S. it would seem that the individual States wd. be left in possession of a concurrent power so far as to define punish treason particularly agst. themselves; which might involve double punishmt.

It was moved that the whole clause be recommitted 〈which was lost, the votes being equally divided.〉

N- H- no. Mas- no- Ct no- N- J ay- Pa ay- Del- no- Md. ay. Va. ay- N C- divd S- C-no. Geo- ay. — [Ayes — 5; noes — 5; divided — 1.]

Mr. Wilson Docr. Johnson moved, that “or any of them” after “United States” be struck out in order to remove the embarrassment: which was agreed to nem. con —

Mr M〈adison〉 This has not removed the embarrassment. The same Act might be treason agst. the United States as here defined — and agst a particular State according to its laws.

Mr Elseworth — There can be no danger to the Genl authority from this; as the laws of the U. States are to be paramount.

Docr Johnson was still of opinion there could be no Treason agst a particular State. It could not even at present, as the Confederation now stands; the Sovereignty being in the Union; much less can it be under the proposed System.

Col. Mason. The United States will have a qualified sovereignty only. The individual States will retain a part of the Sovereignty. An Act may be treason agst. a particular State which is not so against the U. States. He cited the Rebellion of Bacon in Virginia as an illustration of the doctrine.

Docr. Johnson: That case would amount to Treason agst the Sovereign, the supreme Sovereign, the United States —

Mr. King observed that the controversy relating to Treason might be of less magnitude than was supposed; as the legislature might punish capitally under other names than Treason.

Mr. Govr Morris and Mr Randolph wished to substitute the words of the British Statute 〈and moved to postpone Sect. 2. art VII in order to consider the following substitute — “Whereas it is essential to the preservation of liberty to define precisely and exclusively what shall constitute the crime of Treason, it is therefore ordained, declared established, that if a man do levy war agst. the U. S. within their territories, or be adherent to the enemies of the U. S. within the said territories, giving them aid and comfort within their territories or elsewhere, and thereof be provably attainted of open deed by the People of his condition, he shall be adjudged guilty of Treason”〉 9

On this question

N. H Mas- no. Ct. no. N. J- ay Pa. no. Del. no. Md. no. Va.- ay. N. C. no- S. C. no. Geo- no. [Ayes — 2; noes — 8.]

It was moved to strike out “agst United States” after “treason” so as to define treason generally — and on this question

Mas. ay — Ct. ay. N— J. ay. Pa ay. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. no. N. C. no. S. C ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes — 8; noes — 2.]