2000 Culled from a well posting by tnf@well.com (David Gans) BILL KREUTZMANN 12/12/97 Novato CA Interviewed by David Gans (excerpt) DG: I also have to say, you were over here on the mainland a few months ago when you were mixing and mastering the record, and I got a chance to hear you and Backbone play in a little, tiny club gig, and it was so sweet, just to have such access to your drumming. You know, I miss that a lot. I mean, the Grateful Dead got so big for a while there, it was hard to get close to the music. And it was so sweet to sort of reacquaint myself -- 'cause when I first became a fan of the Grateful Dead, it was 1972, and you know, I could focus on your playin', and it was so nice to hear that again. So it was gratifying to me, and I know to a lot of people in the audience, to know that you were still playin' music. 'Cause it would have been a real loss if you'd given it up. BK: Yeah, you know, I was tryin' to say that earlier in our interview, but -- when it's in your blood, and it's in your molecular makeup, and in your whatevers, you don't really give it up. You might just set it down and let it cook for a while, let it kind of develop, and get to a place where you have to do it again. I had to learn to listen again, 'cause in the Grateful Dead we used those great ear monitors, and in Backbone and [with] all the people I've been playing with, you listen over the drum set. You don't have [ear] monitors -- you have a floor monitor. And that's a whole different ball game, 'cause the drum set potentially is a really loud instrument, you know. You have to hear over your own volume to hear the band. So that's been really great for me, because now I'm hearing at that finer level again. It's just cool as can be, you know, and the other way, it was sort of like cyberspace or something. It was in this far out place you didn't really get to touch. You could hear it all, but it wasn't maybe as physical, somehow. DG: Actually, I wondered about that, when you started using the ear monitors, because it seemed like it could potentially be a way to isolate yourself, not necessarily from everybody, but everybody had his own controlled mix and stuff, and you could sort of forget to listen to certain things. BK: [laugh] Forget, my ass! You turn off who you don't want to listen to! Ball game -- set and game. [laugh] DG: [laugh] BK: And you turn yourself up the loudest. I mean, I think everybody had that kind of mix goin'. And the vocals were up front -- the vocals up there, just blam! They're up there really shining. DG: So, can we talk a little bit about playing music? I think -- as time goes by, it becomes apparent how unique and special the Grateful Dead music has been in the history of music, 'cause it's so -- everybody has control over it, you know, their own participation in it. It's not like jazz, where you play the head, and then you take turns soloing. It's like everybody was -- you wouldn't say everybody was soloing at the same time, but everybody was inventing at the same time, and collectively. And at its peak -- and I think I got on board at the peak, like in the early '70s, that band was really, really coverin' ground -- BK: Mm-hm. DG: -- and inventing whole, beautiful structures in mid-air, spontaneously. And I'm wondering how that evolved for you, over the years, and if it got kind of set in stone a little bit, as time went by, and how that felt for you, being part of it. BK: Yeah, there was a point where it was totally free, and it seemed that you could basically go in any musical direction you were feeling at that moment you were playing. And that could be from what the other players were giving you, to use, you know, and then your interpretation of what you heard. And there was like you said, you could -- I think Lesh best said it once, he said it would just turn obliques. The music would appear to be going one way, or it would be going one way, and then just do a radical turn, whatever that means. I can remember them talking about ad libbing key changes while they played. Things like that. Just -- and I always thought that was like common stuff. It's not, you know. Or taking a part of a chord and making it the new root, you know -- just breaking it up in any normal way, not normal, not using the normal way. It got, later on, to be more songs. It got locked into songs, which was fun, because then we would still take the song and go way outside and jam on it and stretch on it, you know. I think what your in- ference is is that it got more regimented maybe, didn't seem as free. DG: Well, my personal opinion was that as Jerry was sort of beginning to fade a little bit, his leadership started to fade with it, and the ability, almost sort of the desire of the band to really get out there and take chances sort of also began to fade a little bit. BK: Mm-hm. DG: Because there were times when anything could happen. BK: Let me tell you this, David. I see what you're trying to say, but no, I never once went up there -- unless I was really feeling bad or somethin' -- but I never went up and played and thought that I had any limitations about anything that I could do or change. Whether it had any effect on the music, who knows? DG: [laugh] Interesting question, uh-huh. BK: But I know that it was never said, you can't do this, you can't do that. I mean, people tried to lead the band on stage like crazy, and that's a whole different thing. But I never go up with the idea it can't be open and free to go there. Wherever "it" is, you know; it's the good old "it." DG: In the beginning, did you guys talk about that in the beginning? 'Cause it went from the jug band, picked up the rhythm section and became the War- locks, and that was a fairly straightforward R&B band, and played -- BK: Mm-hm, Pigpen. DG: Right, and played the pizza joint, then started playing the acid tests, where sort of all bets were off. Was there a lot of discussion about how to develop that unstructured freedom? BK: God, um. For me, it didn't come about as discussion. It came about -- Phil turned me on to Coltrane when I was 18 or 19; I was living with him. And that* was the freedom; that's what he said: "Here, hear this?" [laugh] DG: So you just knew. BK: So *that* was the discussion. The discussion was using other music to teach, you know. And yeah, there was tons of discussion, of course. Those guys would rap about it all the time. DG: It's been -- I recently also came to -- I was in Boston, listening to a band, a Dead-influenced band, playing "Reuben and Cherise." And I suddenly realized, the main thing that Garcia left behind was a whole generation of guitar players who like to play "sweet." BK: Isn't that great? That's cool. That's way cool. Yeah, yeah. DG: And that -- BK: Listen, I'm gonna jump right up to the Garcia. That's the one I was thinkin' about today before we got together. I was really thinkin', I want you to make this clear to all the Heads out there that are gonna hear this show: I was in that band 'cause Jerry was in that band, at first. And Phil. Those two guys, and this is no slight to anybody else, but those guys were the wizards when it came to the music. And it was great to be with them, and play with them, you know, so. . . Like you said, Jerry influenced a whole bunch of guitar players. He influenced me totally, too, in my music and thinking about music, you know. It's amazing, it was great; I wish he was still here, darn it. DG: Yeah, ain't that the truth. BK: I bet I think about him on a daily basis, you know, that much. DG: Well, I sort of got the impression you guys really inhabited each other's heads and hearts, completely. BK: Somewhere. It was at a level that was totally far out. It was so amazing; it was at the music level. Because we didn't really hang out that much. I mean, I love him dearly, but we never -- 2f4 you know, we just didn't. We played music together. I could feel where he was goin' in his music all the time. DG: Well, that's -- BK: So could millions of others! I mean, that's not any big deal, it's just, it was real evident. DG: Yeah, but it was a form of music that was as intimate as can be -- BK: Mm-hm. DG: -- in the sense of really, really being in each other's heads. And in each other's laps, kind of, musically, you know. BK: Well, years ago, we would all get stoned -- we'd all take LSD together, and that's a good way to get into each other's heads. I mean, in a real posi- tive way, just 'cause it lets all that crap go away. All of the fear shit goes away and you get into some neat stuff. . 0