2000 From: SOS-Digest-Owner@gdead.berkeley.edu To: SOS-Digest@gdead.berkeley.edu Subject: Save Our Scene Digest V1 #6 Reply-To: SOS@gdead.berkeley.edu Errors-To: SOS-Digest-Owner@gdead.berkeley.edu Precedence: Save Our Scene Digest Wednesday, 19 July 1995 Volume 01 : Number 006 In this issue: Incidence Reports? Vending - Is it the problem? $.02 Vending and what I saw at Deer Creek & St. Louis Re: Vending and what I saw at Deer Creek & St. Louis Re: Tallies Re: Vending and what I saw at Deer Creek & St. Louis Returned mail: Host unknown (fwd) Re: Vending - Is it the problem? See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the SOS or SOS-Digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: holt@math.washington.edu Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 17:07:16 -0700 Subject: Incidence Reports? I was not at any of the Hell-shows. Could someone in-the-know publish brief summaries of the troubling incidences? That is, for Deer Creek (for example), what all happened, injuries, damage, lingering effects? The blurbs I have seen on the net don't cover all the troubling episodes (what the Sam Hill happened at Albany??), and they are slim on detail. Wanting to check in with reality, Fred. ------------------------------ From: Michael Peachey Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 21:15:01 -0400 Subject: Vending - Is it the problem? On Wed, Jul 19, 1995 1:02:09 PM at SOS-Digest-Owner@nemesis.Berkeley.EDU wrote: >When the show rolls into town, the gypsy mall >rolls in with it. The sights and sounds of the lot entice >people (who would otherwise stay home) to join the party. I've seen this claim in a number of different forms a number of times. I'm still not sure I buy it. Are we really certain enough that vending *causes* or *attracts* the ticketless hordes we are attempting to purge from outside the shows? There could only be 3 mechanisms to accomplish this cause-effect linkage. To wit: 1) The vendors ARE THE SAME as the ticketless hordes. And the ticketless hordes ARE THE SAME as the vendors. If the vendors were banned, the riff raff wouldn't be there and our problem is solved. 2) The vendors ATTRACT the ticketless hordes from the LOCAL SCENE who, instead of being unwashed in their usual milieu, come on down to Bartertown for a little gate crashing and sidewalk urination. 3) The vendors ATTRACT the ticketless hordes from ALL OVER the country who, so love fatty eggrolls, $2 microbrews and tie-dye tapastries that they drive from town to town to get more, and when they're full of burrito and beer they perform the aforementioned gate crashing and public peeing. If we believe that one (or some set of all three) of these theses is correct, we will solve our problem by eliminating the vending. If however, there is another source for the ticketless hordes, we've not accomplished our purpose. And, arguably, removed part of the attraction of the show for some ticketed attendees. Perhaps a litle consumer research is in order. A quick survey of 100 random parking lot pee-ers would let you know: * Are they local or from out of town? * Would they not be there if they had to buy little debbie's do-nuts from the local stop-n-rob instead of veggie burgers? * Do they ever go to shows, or do they prefer hippie-crack by the disco van to going inside? And secondly, let's be clear on what *behavior* of the ticketless do we wish to control? Is it merely their existence, or is it when they break apart nicely planned crowd barriers? If the latter, let's focus on eliminating the behavior, and not the people. Of course, our objective may be to clear out vending for the sake of clearing out vending, in which case, who cares if there is a linkage between vending and the ticketless hordes. just my (long) $.02, I'll be quiet now. Michael Peachey *** Preserve Innocence *** ------------------------------ From: DocREH@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 21:19:23 -0400 Subject: $.02 For my $.02 I think one answer which the band should seriously consider is whether or not to curtail summer touring. One or two years without a summer tour or instead a summer indoor tour would certainly speak louder than anything else. These kinds of sad events have a tendency to occur during stops at outside venues and not usually during fall and winter tours where the venues are inside and once the doors are shut that is it. Either that or a way must be found to make it almost impossible to get inside a certain perimeter without a ticket. Not that vending should be condoned but with or without vending if a mass of people decide to storm a gate they will. Also to be noted is that this summer the Dead were THE ONLY stadium tour so there was no place else to be or "go on tour", as opposed to last year with the Stones, Eagles, etc. This in itself may have drawn a fair number of people who don't usually follow the band and don't know what is proper "Dead etiquette". Just like the discussion regarding whether or not we are entitled to soundboards are we entitled to see a show or even have a tour? I think leaflets will just preach to the converted or perhaps increase hostile feelings in the sense of "Well we have tickets and you don't so please control yourselves so we can enjoy ourselves while inside and you have to remain outside or else our evening will be ruined" ------------------------------ From: Eric Doherty Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 20:49:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Vending and what I saw at Deer Creek & St. Louis I was at Deer Creek, St. Louis, and Chicago on this interesting summer tour, and I'll fill you in a little bit on what I saw and the thoughts I had while on tour. As we were walking to the gates at Deer Creek (which took us 45min from our parked car in the lot) my friend overheard two people talking about crashing the gates at 8:15pm. I have not read rec.music.gdead since I got back so I don't know if people have heard this. It definitely makes the whole gate crashing thing more serious when people are planning it all day long. At 8:21pm people starting cheering...I looked behind me (from the lawn) and saw lots of people climbing over the gates. That gives them about 5-6 min to break through the security line and get to the top. It really bummed me out, and I had a hard time enjoying the rest of the set. The lawn completely filled up with all the "new" audience members. I saw a mixed crowed of gate crashers. One group was the young jr high and high school kids 15-18 that really do not understand the scene, and the other group was more of the tour rat type ranging from 17-25. I may not have gotten a representative sample from where I was sitting, but those were the people who showed up at my spot after the gate crashing started. A lot of the people I talked to initially when it happened were kind of like, "cool," more people get to see the show. There is this attitude that everyone should be allowed to participate in the music/scene, and the walls are just an artificial barrier that should not keep people out. Needless to say the cancelled show on Monday changed many minds. I heard on the radio or read in the local newspaper that the head of Sunshine productions (who runs the Deer Creek shows) said it was their fault for being too lax on security. I imagine this was something they needed to say in order to bring the Dead back next year. I also think the cancelled show was a necessary show of duty for the Dead in order to keep playing at venues like Deer Creek. What town in their right mind would allow the Dead to come to town after something like that. The venue and town are also partially to blame...they were rolling in the cash. At $10/car and the lot filled with 20,000 more people then capacit 2000 y, the venue was making a fortune off the scene. The town was also more than happy to take all the money being spent. If people had not crashed the gates I'm sure the town would have been happy as hell that the Dead showed up again. At St. Louis they only allowed cars into the lot with people who had tickets. There was NO SCENE at St. Louis. This tells me one thing. MOST VENDORS ARE NOT THERE FOR THE SHOW. Most of the vendors I talked to at Deer Creek did not have tickets. They make too much money to go into the show. Some of the good ones will make tens of thousands of dollars every year off the scene. Maybe the scene was gone because they had a killer vending scene at the campground in St. Louis, but I imagine it had more to do with the ticket requirement. Lets face it there is a million dollar capitalist economy all throughout our scene. It is going to be hard as hell to get rid of it. I think the Grateful Dead scene attracts many more people to a concert than would go otherwise. A lot of people would gladly pay $30 to hang out, party, drink, do drugs, and otherwise have a good time at a Grateful Dead concert/ scene. The MTV 1987 crowed was often attracted because of the scene only. How many people would just show up if there was no scene, people went right to their seats, the band played, and everyone went home. There is one group in particular that I was pissed at while at St. Louis. Two nights in a row I saw a young group of jr. high type kids looking really really really bored (while sitting down) throughout the shows. At the second show there were three kids sitting to the right of me and during the whole pre-show and 1st set they were trying to figure out a way to get pot from someone. They needed to get drugs. They did not find any. During the second set pre-drums they talked the whole time about directions home. They sat down almost the whole show and left during drums to go home. After watching the horrible gate crashing scene at Deer Creek this group really pissed me off. THEY WERE THERE FOR THE PARTY, THE SCENE, THE DRUGS, AND THE FREEDOM. THEY WERE NOT THERE FOR THE MUSIC. It is this crowed, for whatever reason, that is causing the problems. If you are not there for the music then you should not be at a Grateful Dead concert. The vending and the scene attract a lot of people who see it as a good opportunity to party and have fun....for better or worse...they are bring us down. If only the real music fans showed up the Dead could play smaller venues...I'm sure of that. I obviously stereotyped a group of people. There are some really cool kids on the scene, and the problems are not just caused by a young and immature crowed (the nitrous sellers don't look to young to me). Not all of the vendors are the cause of the problem, but vending in general makes the scene BIGGER. When it gets too big and 20,000 people are standing outside while the show is being played you can have problems. If 3,000 people were outside I don't think it would be the same. Thanks for getting this far. I came to the conclusion that the vending scene was a problem while being on tour. I didn't even do the lot scene while at Chicago...I went to the aquarium instead. Eric Doherty "edoherty@macalstr.edu" ------------------------------ From: Seth Breidbart Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 21:57:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Vending and what I saw at Deer Creek & St. Louis >If only the real music fans showed up the Dead could play smaller venues. Not necessarily. I know some people who have stopped going to shows because of the people who are there for reasons other than music. They'd come back. (Of course, I'd rather have them. I suspect the Dead would too.) Seth ------------------------------ From: ddowns@freenet.vcu.edu (Daniel L. Downs) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 23:19:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Tallies > > >I would gladly tally the issues that most concern members of this >list. Anyone wanting to add their votes/nominees to the list of >issues can mail me directly (holt@math.washington.edu) or through >this listserv. Use a telling subject line like "My Issues"... > >Dan Downs, your issues have already been counted. > >Fred. > > Fred! I offer you a big hug for keeping the tally! (Cyberdan hugs cyberfred, and claps him on the back...) I read your last posting, and find we are at odds on a few points. You are a grand and wonderful person to keep a tally, and I will keep my diffrence of opinion in E-mail! Thanks for helping out the group. Dan Downs ------------------------------ From: ddowns@freenet.vcu.edu (Daniel L. Downs) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 23:57:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Vending and what I saw at Deer Creek & St. Louis Thanks for the excellent posting! There are many other stories which support the fact this was a planned action by a mob. Dan Downs ------------------------------ From: ddowns@freenet.vcu.edu (Daniel L. Downs) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 00:05:22 -0400 Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (fwd) I sent this earlier, but it bounced. Dan Downs > > > > > > >>How can we enforce a 'no vending' rule? > > > >_We_ can't. The Dead can get the venues to, maybe. > > > >Seth > > > > > Good point! As they rent the lot and the venue, perhaps some > of our suggestions should be forwarded to the band organization! > > I am not a cop and I don't wanna get my head smashed over > vending! > > I recall some places where GDM was in full force, shutting > vendors down. I also recall some places where the local cops > busted folks for *vending without a liscence* (sp). Perhaps one > of our recommendations should be increased local (cop) support > of the vending laws. I am sure you need to pay for a permit in > most localities. It would sure be nice to wake up to a > newspaper that said "138 busted for illegal vending, 0 busted > for dope". > > Don't flame me till I have slept on it...Heh heh heh! > > Dan Downs > > > ------------------------------ From: swebb@freenet.vcu.edu (Sarah S. Webb) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 00:27:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Vending - Is it the problem? Michael Peachy wrote: >Are we really certain enough that vending *causes* or *attracts* the >ticketless hordes we are attempting to purge from outside the shows? There >could only be 3 mechanisms to accomplish this cause-effect linkage. To >wit: > >1) The vendors ARE THE SAME as the ticketless hordes. And the ticketless >hordes ARE THE SAME as the vendors. If the vendors were banned, the riff >raff wouldn't be there and our problem is solved. Many of the vendors are ticketless. They go to the shows to vend -- possibly because it is more convenient and profitable to vend in an environment that is not controlled by the market forces other craftspeople and merchants must contend with -- business license, property rental, sales and income taxes etc. Many other vendors are peddling their handmade wares to help pay for their tour...But I am a craftsperson, and, in many ways, the vending scene at shows is a kind of de facto subsidy. Those who vend at shows do not have the same set of rules, obligations and responsibilities as the rest of the crafts and business community. >2) The vendors ATTRACT the ticketless hordes from the LOCAL SCENE who, >instead of being unwashed in their usual milieu, come on down to Bartertown >for a little gate crashing and sidewalk urination. > >3) The vendors ATTRACT the ticketless hordes from ALL OVER the country who, >so love fatty eggrolls, $2 microbrews and tie-dye tapastries that they >drive from town to town to get more, and when they're full of burrito and >beer they perform the aforementioned gate crashing and public peeing. The vendors attract both, but not in the same way an outlet mall attracts shoppers from great distances. The outlet mall attracts people for one purpose: to purchase things. The vendors attract the ticketless as an added attraction to a c0a n already enticing scene. Whether or not the ticketless purchase the vendor's merchandise, the vendors provide a diversion, an added attraction to the scene, drugs and beer -- a significant attraction to those who come to get high. Something to do if the ticketless don't get in -- or before they crash the gates. Although, the vendors are not the only attraction for the ticketless, they are one significant attraction. If Grateful Dead shows were like most other concerts -- you arrive, park, go in, see the show and leave, I believe the attraction for most of the ticketless horde -- those who come for the party, not the music, would be eleminated. >If we believe that one (or some set of all three) of these theses is >correct, we will solve our problem by eliminating the vending. No, the problem will not be solved by eleminating vending, but eleminating vending will, I believe, significantlty reduce the problem. >And secondly, let's be clear on what *behavior* of the ticketless do we >wish to control? Is it merely their existence, or is it when they break >apart nicely planned crowd barriers? If the latter, let's focus on >eliminating the behavior, and not the people. It is the existence of the ticketless hordes. One, ten, even a couple of hundred ticketless fans may not negatively impact the scene; however, large crowds of ticketless people in the parking lots, even if well behaved, impact the scene and stress the resources allocated for the concert -- parking spaces, traffic, portable toilets, security and police. >Of course, our objective may be to clear out vending for the sake of >clearing out vending, in which case, who cares if there is a linkage >between vending and the ticketless hordes. Yes, our objective should be to clear out vending for the sake of clearing out vending. The band has requested this, and we need the band's support and backing for our efforts. Furthermore, vending got out of hand in 1987-88 and so did the scene. The subsequent crackdown on vending seemed to improve things for a while, then, over a period of years, both the vending and the ticketless hordes increased. This may not be a cause effect relationship; however, I believe there is a significant correlation. Thanks, Sarah - -- Sarah Webb Richmond, Virginia USA swebb@freenet.vcu.edu ------------------------------ End of Save Our Scene Digest V1 #6 ********************************** To subscribe to SOS-Digest, send the command: subscribe sos-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@gdead.berkeley.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-sos": subscribe sos-digest local-sos@your.domain.net A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "sos-digest" in the commands above with "sos". . 0