2000 From: SOS-Digest-Owner@gdead.berkeley.edu To: SOS-Digest@gdead.berkeley.edu Subject: Save Our Scene Digest V1 #9 Reply-To: SOS@gdead.berkeley.edu Errors-To: SOS-Digest-Owner@gdead.berkeley.edu Precedence: Save Our Scene Digest Thursday, 20 July 1995 Volume 01 : Number 009 In this issue: Re: We need to respect the band's wishes Re: We need to respect the band's wishes RE: Nitrous Oxide RE: Nitrous Oxide Re: We need to respect the band's wishes RE: Nitrous Oxide(OOOPS, I didn't mean to post this) The uninformed..... Re: My $.02 too Nitrous is a big problem Re: We need to respect the band's wishes Re: Re: Vending - Is it the problem? what's the real problem? See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the SOS or SOS-Digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: langston@nowhere.net (Rich Langston) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 13:17:36 -0700 Subject: Re: We need to respect the band's wishes At 8:11 PM 7/20/95, Jolie B. Goodman wrote: >But this is similar to the approach that the "Minglewood Town Council" >used in the late 80s, and it didn't work. We need to take the next step >beyond this, IMHO. > >Jolie I disagree. I think they helped quite a bit. Things settled down for the most part for the past 3 years. Rich Langston, langston@nowhere.net, langston@mainstreet.net Bound to Cover Just a Little More Ground! http://www.nowhere.net ------------------------------ From: "Jolie B. Goodman" <6500jo@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 13:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: We need to respect the band's wishes On Thu, 20 Jul 1995, Rich Langston wrote: > At 8:11 PM 7/20/95, Jolie B. Goodman wrote: > > > >But this is similar to the approach that the "Minglewood Town Council" > >used in the late 80s, and it didn't work. We need to take the next step > >beyond this, IMHO. > > > >Jolie > > I disagree. I think they helped quite a bit. Things settled down for the most > part for the past 3 years. > I'm not saying we should do that also, but a lot of the people I've seen causing problems will not listen to reason, they will only respond to action. ------------------------------ From: Bemand@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 16:22:18 -0400 Subject: RE: Nitrous Oxide Rich Langston, langston@nowhere.net writes: >>I like nitous. I do nitrous at shows. Everything kills brain cells. While we all appreciate these words of wisdom (insert sarcastic tone here), this group is not the place to convey your attitudes about nitrous oxide or any other drug for that matter. This group is a place for concerned people to intelligently and creatively discuss solutions to the problems that are plagueing our scene. Deane ------------------------------ From: David Gans Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 13:31:07 -0700 Subject: RE: Nitrous Oxide I like nitrous, too, but the last place I am ever gonna do it is the fucking PARKING LOT. ------------------------------ From: langston@nowhere.net (Rich Langston) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 13:47:42 -0700 Subject: Re: We need to respect the band's wishes At 8:26 PM 7/20/95, Jolie B. Goodman wrote: >On Thu, 20 Jul 1995, Rich Langston wrote: > >> At 8:11 PM 7/20/95, Jolie B. Goodman wrote: >> >> >> >But this is similar to the approach that the "Minglewood Town Council" >> >used in the late 80s, and it didn't work. We need to take the next step >> >beyond this, IMHO. >> > >> >Jolie >> >> I disagree. I think they helped quite a bit. Things settled down for the most >> part for the past 3 years. >> >I'm not saying we should do that also, but a lot of the people I've seen >causing problems will not listen to reason, they will only respond to action. Excuse me? So what are you going to do, beat them to death? Rich Langston, langston@nowhere.net, langston@mainstreet.net Bound to Cover Just a Little More Ground! http://www.nowhere.net ------------------------------ From: langston@nowhere.net (Rich Langston) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 13:47:31 -0700 Subject: RE: Nitrous Oxide(OOOPS, I didn't mean to post this) At 8:22 PM 7/20/95, Bemand@aol.com wrote: >Rich Langston, langston@nowhere.net writes: > >>>I like nitous. I do nitrous at shows. Everything kills brain cells. > >While we all appreciate these words of wisdom (insert sarcastic tone here), Point well taken. I accidentally posted this to the group as a whole. I intended my reply to go only to the original post's author. I fully appreciate how this topic can cause a total decay of the quality of discussion. Rich Langston, langston@nowhere.net, langston@mainstreet.net Bound to Cover Just a Little More Ground! http://www.nowhere.net ------------------------------ From: DELIAS@POMONA.EDU Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 14:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The uninformed..... Since I have only been to west coast shows, I have never seen the consequences of it. I never knew that the dead discouraged it, and thus enjoyed and accepted it as part of the culture. It was only after seeing what happened on this tour that I became aware of these problems. I think that many people out in the L.A. area are like me in that sense, but have no clue about what happened this summer. Without the net there is really not that many ways to get information about the band, and thus many people have not heard too much about deercreek, etc. They still have not seen any of the consequences of vending and ticketless, and will go about business as usual on the fall tour. It is up to us too tell these non- net people what needs to be done. I think we should try and give the letter from the band to everyone we know that is into going to shows, and encourage them to pass it on. I personally plan to take a bunch of copies down to ticketmaster the day devore tickets go on sale. Maybe that would be the best way to let people know what is going on. With the changing scene many people just don't know that the dead discourages ticketless, etc. and real fans will change their attitude once they read the boyz telling them that they could be destroying the scene. I think just about all of the people (even gatecrashers) are good people, but get too many good people together with a lot of alcohol and drugs and even good people get out of hand. If they know that they are hurting the scene, I think many will change their attitude towards shows. DOM ------------------------------ From: pip@mcs.com (John Pipino) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 95 17:17 CDT Subject: Re: My $.02 too Jilly Smo wrote: >I think what we can do is try to teach each other, >gently guide people who are acting uncool, notice and point out unwelcome >behavior, and realize that it's okay for us to say when things are not okay. Isn't that what we've been doing all these years? It worked for a long time, but (despite what my heart says) now I think it's time for a more solid, obvious stand. I never ever thought I'd say this, but I think it's time to tell those assholes "If you can't respect the scene, GET OUT!" I wish I could be more forgiving...but I'm pissed. They (the assholes) *don't* pay attention to the unspoken rules of the scene...and they actively ignore gentle proddings from the rest of us. Please tell me there's another way that will *work*...cuz this cynicism is killing me. Sigh Patte John Pipino pip@mcs.com ------------------------------ From: pip@mcs.com (John Pipino) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 95 17:16 CDT Subject: Nitrous is a big problem It's not just the nitrous destroying brain cells...it's the kind of people who come to the lot to sell it. When was the last time you saw one of those nitrous vans run by a real head? The money is going outside of the "family" -- a 19ff nd the profit on a tank of nitrous is *tremendous*. Since I can't do nitrous (it gives me a horrific headache), I can be "holier than thou," about what it does to the human body. But my real beef with it is that it attracts people who just want to party...not listen to the music play. John Pipino pip@mcs.com ------------------------------ From: pip@mcs.com (John Pipino) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 95 17:17 CDT Subject: Re: We need to respect the band's wishes Rich Langston wrote: >But I don't think there's any real way to "turn back the clock" on vending. >>And as long as drugs are part of our scene, there will always be people >who'll >come to the lot to get a bag. So I can't see any way that these >approaches will work. I don't agree. It's not turning back the clock, it's turning a page. In '87, vending really decreased...seemed like more security geeks in the lot. It's grown since '90 or so...and now it's a nasty gorilla of a situation. Those who come just for the party *won't* come if they know: 1) They won't get into the lot without a ticket. 2) The rest of us won't tolerate inappropriate behavior. 3) There's no party to come to. I *love* the lot scene...but may have to be the sacrificial lamb to save the music...which is the whole reason we're there anyway, no? John Pipino pip@mcs.com ------------------------------ From: Michael Peachey Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 19:00:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Re: Vending - Is it the problem? >Many of the vendors are ticketless. They go to the shows to >vend -- possibly because it is more convenient and profitable >to vend (snip) other vendors are peddling their handmade wares to help >pay for their tour I agree, and it probably not the vendors who are abandoning their wares to storm the gates. It may be their friends, or people who are freeloading on the vendos income to stay on tour, but it is probably not the vendors. Eliminating the vendors does not guarantee that you eliminate the riff raff. >I am a craftsperson, and, in many ways, the vending scene at >shows is a kind of de facto subsidy. Those who vend at shows >do not have the same set of rules, obligations and >responsibilities as the rest of the crafts and business >community. I agree. We have the same issue in NYC with street vendors driving out storefront merchants (or at least impacting their business) Low overhead will always have an advantage. However, unfair economics does not mean the same thing as gate crashing. >The >vendors attract the ticketless as an added attraction to an >already enticing scene. Whether or not the ticketless purchase >the vendor's merchandise, the vendors provide a diversion, an >added attraction to the scene, drugs and beer -- a significant >attraction to those who come to get high. Something to do if >the ticketless don't get in -- or before they crash the gates. So, we need to believe that without vending, the "already attractive" scene is not attrtactive enough anymore to attract ticketless hordes. If however, it still is attractive enough, and people manage to find/bring their own beer, drugs, and eggrolls, we've not solved our problem. > >Although, the vendors are not the only attraction for the >ticketless, they are one significant attraction. If Grateful >Dead shows were like most other concerts -- you arrive, park, >go in, see the show and leave, I believe the attraction for >most of the ticketless horde -- those who come for the party, >not the music, would be eleminated. I agree again. However, the "scene" will still largely exist as long as you have tour-heads. Even without vending, you'll still have a lot full of people hanging about waiting for friends to get out, scalping tix, etc. >No, the problem will not be solved by eleminating vending, but >eleminating vending will, I believe, significantlty reduce the problem. Hey wait, we might be agreeing here... >It is the existence of the ticketless hordes. Again, if you don't believe (as I don't believe) that ending vending will end the parking lot scene, then you wont accomplish your goal by eliminating vending. If you don't like a lot full of people, get rid of the lot full of people. There are ways to do this. Try organizing a demonstration one day. There are lots of laws that come into play *if/when* someone cares to enforce them. >Yes, our objective should be to clear out vending for the sake >of clearing out vending. The band has requested this, and we >need the band's support and backing for our efforts. Then let's be honest about what we are doing. We are clearing out vending ebcaus ethe band want us to clear out vending. And, BTW, the Band needs our support in doing this, not the other way around. Sarah - I'm not arguing that vending is good. I am trying to point out that vendors are not the same people who are crashing down gates, and may not be responsible for the presence of those who are. peace Michael Peachey *** Preserve Innocence *** ------------------------------ From: Michael Peachey Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 19:16:56 -0400 Subject: what's the real problem? Someone said: 4. It seems that we need to discuss what we really want to stop and that's violent behavior. Violence towards workers (police/security/ticket takers) and violence towards each other. I think that this needs to go to the top of the list of things we are trying to fix. Eliminating vending, ticketless, etc, are *proposed* tactics* to accomplish this objective. Michael Peachey *** Preserve Innocence *** ------------------------------ End of Save Our Scene Digest V1 #9 ********************************** To subscribe to SOS-Digest, send the command: subscribe sos-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@gdead.berkeley.edu". 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