2000 From: SOS-Digest-Owner@gdead.berkeley.edu To: SOS-Digest@gdead.berkeley.edu Subject: Save Our Scene Digest V1 #15 Reply-To: SOS@gdead.berkeley.edu Errors-To: SOS-Digest-Owner@gdead.berkeley.edu Precedence: Save Our Scene Digest Friday, 21 July 1995 Volume 01 : Number 015 In this issue: Re: Will Call Re: We need to respect the bands wishes Re: Saving Our Scene Re: Votes??? Re: Saving Our Scene My 2 cents A Question See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the SOS or SOS-Digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: swebb@freenet.vcu.edu (Sarah S. Webb) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 23:25:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Will Call Someone mentioned earlier that the will call list could be distributed to the checkers at parking lot entrances...So, your name is on the list w/ # of tickets. You enter the lot with yoou companions - you + companions don't exceed the number of tickets you have waiting at will call. It seemed like a good idea to me. Sarah > >Geoff Gould wrote: > >>I've not seen a good solution to how to keep ticketless people out of >the >>lot, and still not be rude to legit will call customers. Did I miss >>something? > >I'm not sure if there is a perfect answer to the "Will Call" problem, >except to perhaps set up a "Will Call" booth at the parking lot >entrance. Any other ideas? > >Hugs, >Ron > > >-- > ____ > _____________________\ /______________________ >| Ron Iseli \/ Barefoot Activist | >| | >| "Ain't no time to hate, barely time to wait!" | >|_______________________________________________| > > > - -- Sarah Webb Richmond, Virginia USA swebb@freenet.vcu.edu ------------------------------ From: Hilary Bouchard Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 22:27:19 -0500 Subject: Re: We need to respect the bands wishes Thanks to both of my sisters, Jolie and Sarah!!! I can't think of a more caring family... Peace, :) Hilary "You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, Not even in your dreams. You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you, For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday. You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth." -Kahlil Gibran ------------------------------ From: bf_ron@ix.netcom.com (Ron Iseli ) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 20:59:55 -0700 Subject: Re: Saving Our Scene Craig Snoeyenbos wrote: >On the first, I was struck by a bright idea at Highgate that is in the "I >know there must be something wrong with this or they would be doing it >already" category, but I can't see what that is, so here goes - Why not >make tickets into wristbands? That way it would be easy to check people >going into the parking lot without as horrible traffic. For rural areas >there should be an agreement with the local authorities that temporary >campground licenscees should only admit the wristbanded. (The state park >where we camped used them, which is where I got the idea.) Those of us >with mixed emotions on vending could split the difference by only buying >from the wristbanded. Police and security could use the wristband as the >first step of the attitude test process. There's a lot to be said for this idea. It makes security much easier, because the annointed can be spotted immediately by the wristband. I hope we don't have to get to this point, but is a valuable idea. Hugs, Ron - -- ____ _____________________\ /______________________ | Ron Iseli \/ Barefoot Activist | | | | "Ain't no time to hate, barely time to wait!" | |_______________________________________________| ------------------------------ From: swebb@freenet.vcu.edu (Sarah S. Webb) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 00:04:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Votes??? Hi Fred, I've had trouble distilling my concerns into list form, but hate to see your generous offer ignored. The following is more than you asked for, so distill it as you wish for the tally. Here goes: Problems: 1. Violence. 2. Crowds exceeding security and facilities. 3. Lack of respect for others. 4. The negative impression we leave on a host community. Causes: 1. Ticketless crowds. 2. Vending and other elements of the scene which make it attractive, in itself, without the music or the show. 3. Unawareness of how the actions of an indivdual can adversely affect the whole scene. 4. Selfishness. Goals: 1. Reduce crowds. 2. Reduce external (outside the show) draws to the scene. 3. Educate people in the parking lot -- heads, vendors, ticketless. 4. Educate host communities about deadheads, our culture and values. Strategies: 1. Canvas concert goers with information at all levels -- hotline, mailorder, Dead related magazines, retail outlets which sell Dead related merchandise, the parking lot, local and national media: TV, radio, newspapers. 2. Establish a liason with the band or Dennis McAnally so that the band and SOS can send a consistent, united message. 3. Establish liasons with communities who host the Dead -- venue management, City Councils, police forces -- and educate them about the dynamics of the deadheads and the best, safest ways to manage/coordinate a show. 4. Become a visible presence at shows and in our communities. T-shirts and bumperstickers are a good idea. 5. Contribute as much positive energy to the scene as possible. (I posted a list of suggestions to r.m.gd before spring tour; I'll edit and repost here.) I hope this helps. Peace, Sarah > > >I volunteered to tally votes on the most pressing issues AND >... AND the response has been dismal. > >What are your 4,5,6,... most pressing issues with the scene? >Let me know; I'm counting... > >Fred. > > - -- Sarah Webb Richmond, Virginia USA swebb@freenet.vcu.edu ------------------------------ From: ddowns@freenet.vcu.edu (Daniel L. Downs) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 00:16:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Saving Our Scene Steve.... I have the greatest regard for you opinion, yet I feel as though you are steering us from our point by emotional arguments. >One, I'm curious as to where any of us think we will get the power to put an >end to vending. We are not police (thank God!), nor are we security guards. >An SOS t-shirt will not empower us to put an end to many peoples' >livelihood. Nor will a note from daddy, i.e. the band. >If SOS is not working with vendors on these policy statements, it is >operating dangerously in a vacuum of information. To put it bluntly, >without direct input and cooperation from people who make their living >vending, this discussion of "should we put an end to vending" is absurdly >presumptuous. A heated sense of moral superiority is not license to put an >end to peoples' livelihood. I'd wager that most of the people who have the >Net access to read this list are not sweating away in a van chopping fresh >salsa to make 1000 burritos. How could we get those voices heard here? A >crucial question. The voices of the vendors will be heard if they wish to make a statement. Are you their spokesman? If so, what is their ideas on preventing riots? Are they disagreeing with the bands wishes that vending end? Why do the vendors find this "presumptuous" after being told over and over to quit? What is your base as spokesman for the vendors? Do you represent 10? 100? 1000? and, *NO*, I *don't* chop salsa, I buy tickets and go to shows for the music. Maybe salsa choppers should buy tickets too! > >Two, anyone who insists that "the band has said no vending, and it's as >simple as that" is missin 2000 g several layers of subtle truth. It's true that >the flyers and tix say no vending, but I sincerely believe that if the band >thought No Vending was the end of it, they could have hired several busloads >of brutal rent-a-cops to really do the job. Well, they say it twice, in the ticket and the flyer. Does one need to be but so sharp to get the idea? Your beliefs are at odds with the bands wishes!!!! I think it's evident that the >band has mixed feelings about vending. I also think it's evident that the >vending scene is handled differently in every venue. What are the models >which work to create a non-harmful vending scene? Rather than taking a >fundamentalist approach, a pragmatic, tolerant one is called for - and is, >in fact, the only approach which will work to relieve the SPECIFIC problems. Sigh..don't you get it yet? SPECIFIC problems include vending.There is no non-harmful vending. Vending is harmful... > Some of the discussion on this list has the panicked, guilt-ridden tone of >a kid who has been caught playing with himself. "I'll never do it again, >mommy, I promise!" We - and most of the vendors - are adults. It is very >much in the interest of the vendors to prevent catastrophes. I think the >band's REAL intended command is No Hassles, i.e., keep your act together, >don't attract the undue attention of press, police, or locals. You keep >your scene cool, and so will we. jeez...."the band's REAL ""intended"" command..." You are so good at second guessing the hidden message that you miss the message... That's my opinion, but I also spoke with >Bob Bralove at length about this, and he agreed. He also mentioned that he >thought the vending scene at Soldier Field was wonderful. I wasn't there. What was it like? Thank goodness all of us on this list don't waste time spinning our wheels on the wet sand of "what they really meant" and can focus on issues that may make a change. The last thing I need is an interperter.....BTW, nice name dropping ploy, does Bralove know you used his name as a footnote? If so will he come on-line to back up your ideas? (I wait for his posting) >>Three, I would hope we could come up with a more subtle distinction between >good vending and bad vending than "Is it big money?" What, are we going to >try to inhibit only those vendors that don't have their act together enough >to rake in bucks? I would hope that Paul Goeltz, the >Oatmeal-Chocolate-Chip-Raisin-Banana Cookie guy, is becoming a millionaire! >He deserves it - and he would make an excellent voice on any ethics >committees, etc. > ????Your logic is lost on me here. Big buck vendors? Over $500 a night? >Four, I asked Bralove about the band's reaction to the Deer Creek fiasco. >I can't share everything that was said, but I will say that the first thing >he mentioned was the folly of scheduling a small venue between large ones, >and on a national holiday to boot. He did not launch into a tirade about >the spiritual impoverishment of Deadheads, as many people here have been >willing to do. Hold what you can't say close to your chest! I am sure if his comments about small venue/National Hoiday, and the planning of the tour were made public, he would lose a few friends. Of course, he might lose you after he reads the following! When I told him about the SOS effort, he said, "Isn't that >just like Deadheads - to think that THEY are the source of the problem, and >then try to fix it." An interesting perspective, to say the least! > OK folks, here it is! The author and his "buddy " think we are a bunch of as*h*l*s. I suggest we save our scene and ignore flame-bait like this! We must *focus* on our job. No More Riots. Dan Downs ------------------------------ From: DavSe@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 00:18:48 -0400 Subject: My 2 cents Hello group: I have been lurking for a while, so I have a few things to comment on by now. 1. I'm with Steve. Well said! 2. trbeck@nma.mnet.uswest.com (Tom Beck) wrote: >Don't open lots more than 3 hours before the show. >This would prevent the massive vending scene from >building up, and should allow ample time for ticket >holding concert goers to park and go inside. This >summer at Soldier Field the shows didn't start til >~ 6:00 pm but the lots opened at 10:00 am. IMHO 8 >hours of lot action before the show is rather excessive. If you open the lots 3 hours before show time, half of the people will not get inside in time for the show. 10 a.m. might seem early, but if you watch the line going into the parking lot all day long, you will never see it wane or stop. It takes them *that long* to park all those cars. We're talking about 60,000-80,000 people. Even at Oakland Coliseum, one of the smallest arenas the band plays, they give more than 3 hours to park cars. Open the lot early or increase the already high possibility of missing the beginning of the show. If they decide to check tickets on the way into the lot and open the lot only 3 hours before show time, 75% of ticket holders will not be inside on time. 3. >Offer some kind of preferential parking (price >and/or location) to vehicles occupied by ticket >holders only. I realise this would present some >problems wrt implementation, but I just don't think >it all that challenging for the occupants to hold >up valid tickets for the night's show. In fact, both of these ideas have already been practiced somewhat regularly on the past few east coast summer tours, but not necessarily regarding ticket holders. Instead, they have been used to attempt to thwart vending. Deer Creek is a fine example. The lot opens at noon or 1 p.m. If one arrives when the lot opens, probably because you want to get a good vending spot, you will be sent to the outermost reaches of the lot on the back side of the amph (that nice tree-lined area in outer Mongolia), which is definitely not a good spot. In past years, although '95 was different, one paid $10 to arrive before 3 p.m. and $5 after 3. Another attempt to punish vendors for arriving earliest. Obviously, neither has done the trick. 4. Wristbands, parking vouchers bought with tickets, showing tickets. I have read many permutations upon the "check tickets before entering the lot" notion. Checking tickets on the way into the lot does not work for many reasons. It was evident at Riverport, where we waited over 2 hours in line to get into th lot. Where do cars without tickets turn around? This has to be planned. Does everyone in the car have to have a ticket, or just one, or two, or 50%? Can people walk into the parking lot easily since there is no fence surrounding it? What about will call? If will call is outside the lot, is there a place to park to go to will call? How many things will we have to hand to or show the parking attendant upon entering the lot? Tickets and money. Too many things to hand them. Either hand them money only or show them a ticket only. If we have to hand/show them 2 things, parking will take nearly 2x as long. If tickets are to be checked on the way into the lot, the charge for parking should be added to the ticket price, as it is in Vegas. This way, we only have to show/hand them one thing, and it is the ticket. For that matter, checking tickets or not, parking should be added to the ticket price. I have never seen a parking line move as smoothly as it does in Vegas. It's fantastic! Not to be too negative about all these suggestions, I came up with one of my own. The band and promoters know when to check tickets on the way into the lot. They can't help but know since they sell the tickets. If a show is a one-day-only mail order, and the shows sells out at Ticketmaster within minutes, it can be assumed that tickets are in great demand. When this is the case, tickets should be checked on the way into the lot. Otherwise, it seems ludicrous to check tickets to a show that took weeks to sell out, like The Palace or most shows on the west coast. "It's impossible to get into Boston Garden with 80b a ticket. Certainly, we're not going to worry about the security of it without." - Dennis McNally Peace Dave davse@aol.com ------------------------------ From: JillSmo@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 00:27:28 -0400 Subject: A Question All this talk about what to do to "Save Our Scene" and most of the suggestions I'm reading seem to be more about getting rid of the parking lot experience entirely. I know that "This is first a music concert, not a free-for-all party," we're there for the music. But for me, a lot of what makes the Dead experience special is the parking lot scene, all of the madness, chaos and games that we play outside, and not just what goes on inside the venue. The reality is that something needs to be done and fast, otherwise there won't be anything for us to discuss; there's won't BE any parking lot, any venues, any touring. I like what the band said: "It's up to you as Dead Heads to educate these people, and to pressure them into acting like Dead Heads instead of maniacs. They can only get away with this crap if you let them." But do we have to cut off the hand to save the arm? (what the hell does that mean?) Is our goal to get rid of the lot? and should it be? If we did, will it "SOS?" What kind of "scene" will we have when it's gone? Just wondering, Jilly Smo :) ------------------------------ End of Save Our Scene Digest V1 #15 *********************************** To subscribe to SOS-Digest, send the command: subscribe sos-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@gdead.berkeley.edu". If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-sos": subscribe sos-digest local-sos@your.domain.net A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "sos-digest" in the commands above with "sos". . 0