SUBJECT: ROBERT SWAN                                       FILE: UFO2031

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        The following file contains selected excerpts from phone
conversations I had with Robert Swan during the month of December.
Bill Cooper both supplied me with his name, whereabouts, and "code"
by which Robert Swan was to know that it was okay to divulge information
to me regarding his knowledge of what Bill Cooper had discussed with him.

        As Bill Cooper did not have Swan's phone number, I had to find
that out for myself. Additionally, Bill has asked that I not print Swan's address, as he does not want this individual "harassed". For those who
are serious about getting to the truth of the matter, they will know how
to find this individual.

        There will be no commentary from myself, as the file should
speak for itself. Anything in [ ] brackets will represent clarification
of speech where necessary. Although several calls were made to Robert
Swan, I have only included the most revelant material from 2 of them here.

        The purpose of my communicating with Robert Swan was to verify
whether or not Bill Cooper had indeed shown him certain UFO-related
documents (ie. Project Aquarius papers) back in 1972. 
 
                                        -Tom Mickus 1/22/89


Note: "........" indicates conversation not reproduced here.



Selected Excerpts from Phone Conversation (A) (WITHOUT KNOWING "CODE")
----------------------------------------------------------------------

........

<MICKUS> "Of course you don't know me. I've been speaking with
          Bill Cooper".

  <SWAN> "Un-huh."

<MICKUS> "And you knew him from a while back?"

  <SWAN> "Yes."
........

<MICKUS> "There's one thing I wanted to ask you. Bill has decided to
         go public with all he knows, and has been getting from his
         sources; about what he knows about the U.S. gov't cover-up..."

 <SWAN> "Un-huh."

<MICKUS> "...with UFOs, that type of thing..."

  <SWAN> "Un-huh."

<MICKUS> "...and as one of the coroborating sources, he had mentioned
         your name to myself, and one other person as far as I know,
         about both of you seeing an Aquarius telex document back in
         '72. And I just wanted to find out, get confirmation from
         youf that that was true, that the content in there was what
         Bill has reproduced."

  <SWAN> "You know I can't um...I can't verify that. I don't recall
         that."

<MICKUS> "So you don't remember ever seeing anything like that?"

  <SWAN> "No. I may have. But off the top [of my head], you know thats
         been years and years. And I don't, I don't at the present time
         remember...you know if I remember the circumstances or
         something...if you could let me know what the circumstances
         were, then I could piece it back together. To all of a
         sudden to try and remember something like that... I mean,
         there's all kinds of discussions that we've had in the past,
         lengthy...and so on."

<MICKUS> "You mean related to this?"

  <SWAN> "Ahh, well there was a lot of stuff just as far as the carriers
         [aircraft] and stuff like that. But..."
 
<MICKUS> "Just dealing with the military though?"

  <SWAN> "Yeah. ...but not anything that... He was always very above-board
         with stuff. As far as classified stuff, when I was on the...I 
         think he was on the Enterprise...I don't remember, but I was on
         board one time, and we were going through...he was showing me
         around and stuff, and there was areas that he had access to that
         naturally I wouldn't. I know his knowledge is definitely there."

<MICKUS> "So you can attest to that he has, or did have this, high 
         security rating that would give him access to..."

  <SWAN> "Oh yeah. Sh*t yeah.

<MICKUS> "...cause he's come out and said that he's got 4 different
         military intelligence sources."

  <SWAN> "Right. Well he was in the Air Force, the Navy... anyway,
         right now I can't really recall the...if I remember the
         circumstances maybe I could piece it back together...I'll
         think about it...but as far as the UFO stuff, that...that
         was pretty much hearsay from what was going on on the
         carriers and stuff."

<MICKUS> "You mean from Bill, or from other people?"

  <SWAN> "From Bill, yeah."

<MICKUS> "Okay, this is the one thing he mentioned. The year was 1972
         and it was an Aquarius-telex. Now I imagine if you did see
         this thing, it would probably stick in your mind..."

  <SWAN> "Yeah..."

<MICKUS> "you know, about exchange of technology between Alien groups,
         Project Plato, then there was a Project Sigma about establishing
         communications, Project Redlight to test fly Alien aircraft,
         then there was the Project Snowbird to cover that up, and that
         was about all that was in the Aquarius document."

  <SWAN> "Yeah."

<MICKUS> "But that doesn't ring a bell?"

  <SWAN> "No it doesn't."
........

<MICKUS> "But you say it could be true though?"

  <SWAN> "Oh yeah, it could be true, sure. He was really into that.
         You know, I mean as far as... yeah he was really interested
         in that kind of sh*t. But I don't recall seeing that. And
         like you said, if I had, it probably would stick in my mind.
         However, if I remember the circumstances, like I said, maybe
         I could piece it back together, but right now..."

<MICKUS> "About Bill's involvement, would you say that he's pretty
         level-headed about it? Was he talking about it all the time?"

  <SWAN> "No, I'd say he was pretty level headed about it."
........

  <SWAN> "Well he certainly had access to a lot of information. I'm
         aware of that."
........

  <SWAN> "Basically what I had gathered from him is on the space shots
         and so on, from tracking and so on...the sightings that have
         been seen from astronauts in space, you know, communications
         on board...just the sightings and so on. And I think thats
         what got his interest going on the thing. Navigation, he was
         a navigator I believe, and so he had all that front-line
         communication stuff going."

<MICKUS> "I'm just curious, but is he bound by any,...I know there
         are various regulations and this type of thing. But
         conceivably could he be in any hot water over..."

  <SWAN> "I would say so. Right off the top [of my head]". He's no
         longer in the military is he?

<MICKUS> "No..."
........


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Selected Excerpts from Phone Conversation (B) (WITH "CODE" THIS TIME)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

........

<MICKUS> "The reason why Bill doesn't want you to get in touch with
         him in the immediate interim, is because he has to get
         independent verification that he did see these particular
         documents so many years ago. Now you personally haven't
         spoken with him, or corresponded for how long would you 
         say?"

  <SWAN> "Twelve, thirteen years."
........

<MICKUS> "...the night before he was to get married, he apparently
         told you "on the eve of his wedding", that was to be the
         code or whatever,...that you originally weren't supposed
         to tell anyone about this because it was just confidential
         between both of you. But he was telling me about when he
         had his house up on Aeia Heights Dr....[Bill Said] " I
         lived only a few houses below him, it was at night, we
         had a few drinks, I showed him the documents and gave him
         a copy of it. And we talked for about an hour about it.
         I asked him to never to discuss it with anyone as it was
         Top Secret. And then we never discussed it again after
         that."

  <SWAN> "Right."

<MICKUS> "So do you remember that?"

  <SWAN> "I remember something to that effect, yup."

<MICKUS> "And he said in the document, the coversheet said Majesty,
         it had Sigma, Redlight, Snowbird, Luna, Delta, NRO, Pluto,
         Plato, Pounce and a description of the aliens and other
         info in it..."
.......

  <SWAN> "There's been lots of discussion and stuff, but as far as
         anything other than like you just said...really minor
         momentarily talking about...that's all well and good. But
         as far as going into depth and knowing exactly what all that
         stuff is, I don't."

<MICKUS> "He said he did give you a copy of something."

  <SWAN> "You know, I don't recall that. He possibly could have. The
         instance [of the meeting] I remember that occuring. But I
         don't remember him giving me a copy of anything because of
         his involvement with...he was with CINCPACFLT then, and I
         don't really... He might have shown me that, but I don't...
         he never gave me a copy of it that I recall. If he had of,
         I would have definitely had it stashed some place, and
         probably would have lost it by now anyway."

<MICKUS> "But theoretically it could be buried away somewhere in 
         your old records?"

  <SWAN> "I've been through stuff over the last ten - fifteen years,
         and I a haven't come across it. But there's been stuff that
         Bill's shown me on UFO stuff so..."

........

<MICKUS> "...is there anything that you can specifically remember
         that can be shown... Basically what I'm trying to determine
         is; Yes, you did see this particular document. Now I want
         to know that besides the fact that; Yes, you and Bill were
         talking about the subject of...and..., this type of thing."

  <SWAN> "We were talking about the subject of UFOs quite a bit, and
         his interest in them and all that. As far as all of the stuff
         that was Top Secret, whatever, there was stuff that he had
         told me and that he couldn't say anything about, and so...
         And as far as getting a copy of some document, I don't
         really recall that, I may have seen it...but... And that
         period right before his wedding and all that, I remember
         that quite well."

<MICKUS> "So if I take you back to that specific evening on Aeia
         Heights, and you are both talking over drinks, and Bill
         comes out and shows you this one set of documents. Do
         you not specifically recall that? Because that is 
         important."

  <SWAN> "I specifically recall him showing me something, but as
         far as him giving me a copy, I don't recall."

<MICKUS> "Well, forget about the copy part..."

  <SWAN> "As far as the exact Project and all of that, I can't
         really...if there was something in court or something
         and they would say, 'positively do you remember reading
         blah blah blah', and honestly I cannot."

<MICKUS> "So how would you characterize those documents? If you
         were to put it into your own sentence as to what he
         showed you, what would you say?"

  <SWAN> "Right off the top,\ 'He showed me some papers with a
         bunch of stuff on it.' But as far as what it was, as 
         far as what the Projects and stuff that you were 
         talking about...that doesn't ring a bell to me."

<MICKUS> "Like I said before, I don't want to involve you..."

  <SWAN> "Hey I'll tell you something, if I remembered, and if
         I had a copy of it, I wouldn't hesitate to get involved.
         I could careless about...where a person hangs out. I'm
         not squeamish in any ways, about what you're talking
         about, all kinds of supernatural stuff. If I had some
         knowledge of it, and I saw it...hell yeah man, I would
         get right into it."

<MICKUS> "Actually, I was thinking more of the...you know
         theoretically what some intelligence service could do
         to a person who... I thought that maybe you might not
         want to talk for that reason."

  <SWAN> "No no. After I talked with you the other time, I kinda
         gone back and re-lived conversations and stuff. As far
         as the contents of the document you are talking about...
         I know that we discussed a bunch of stuff as far as 
         different things, but I don't know anything about the
         documents."

<MICKUS> "Do you remember discussing events connected with...
         Now, some of those Project names do they ring a bell
         at all? Or discussion of UFOs? Do you remember that
         as being central to what you were discussing, as
         opposed to just military..."

  <SWAN> "Well, if I got into the particulars of the different
         operations or something, I would probably remember what
         was said. As far as the code names and all of that kind
         of stuff, they really don't mean anything to me. As far
         as some of the things that were going on, I recall
         discussions on that. Its trying to piece together stuff
         that far back, and at that point in time it was fascinating
         to what was going on, but I didn't have any extreme
         interest in it."

<MICKUS> "Would you say, thinking back to that time...that Yes, the
         impression left is that this stuff that you saw dealt with
         UFOs. Was that..."

  <SWAN> "Oh yeah."

<MICKUS> "That's clear then, right?"

  <SWAN> "Oh yeah."

<MICKUS> "You're just talking specifics now. And although you may
         not remember what was on the pages, whatever, can you 
         think back in your mind, and actually see Bill passing
         something over for you to look at...or referring to 
         something in front of him, specific documents."

  <SWAN> "Yeah, I remember that. I remember that, but its like I said,
         as far as the contents and so on, that was just discussed.
         As far as a copy, I don't recall getting one."
.......

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                     [ - End of File - ]


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