SUBJECT: THE SHUTTLE DISCOVERY: ENCOUNTER IN SPACE? FILE: UFO2491 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 The Shuttle Discovery: Encounter In Space? 06/26/92 Larry King Live The Shuttle Discovery: Encounter in Space? KING: Welcome back to Larry King Live. A camera aboard the space shuttle Discovery recorded a curious sight nine months ago. Some UFO researchers are calling it a breakthrough video: a clear view of a craft, not one of ours, performing a high-speed maneuver. Others, with years in the space program, say it's just plain old debris. Judge for yourself. The mission was STS-48, flown in September of last year. As Discovery circled the Earth, the camera picks up what looks like an object drifting from right to left, then suddenly and strangely veering off to the right and out of view, followed by what looks like a tracer or laser from the bottom to the top of the screen. Another, closer look: The object appears to change direction. NASA says it was waste water dumped from Discovery. UFO enthusiasts disagree and claim NASA has long hidden the full extent of outer space UFO encounters. With us from Los Angeles - Don Ecker of UFO Magazine. In Houston - space engineer and author, James Oberg, who worked on ground communications for this shuttle mission, the one in question. Don, why are you so sure this is a UFO? DON ECKER, `UFO' Magazine: Well, it certainly has all the appearances, Larry, of being something that is unidentified. It certainly appears to be flying. And we do not normally associate waste water - or, as some pundits are calling it, urine in space - to make drastic right-angle turns. KING: Why would NASA want to hide it? Mr. ECKER: Why would the United States Government want to keep this subject under wraps for 45 years? That's an excellent question. KING: Why? Mr. ECKER: Well, we could certainly go into the realm of speculation- KING: I mean, the Government denies it, so you're going to have to tell me why you think they hide it. Mr. ECKER: OK. Well, to begin with, I have a couple of questions that I want to address to Jim first, Larry, that I think are germane. To begin with, good evening, Jim. And I have a couple of questions. To begin with, what capacity are you here in this evening? Are you here- KING: Hold it. They're straightening out Jim's microphone. So let me get straight with you and then they'll let me know and we'll be ready to take that through. When you saw these tapes for the first time, were you just feeding your own, for want of a better term, frenzy, something you'd been wrapped up with for a long time? Or did you turn this over for analysis? Did you look at it? Did you investigate their explanation? Mr. ECKER: Absolutely. As a matter of fact, I have the documents with me with what NASA had claimed that these particular anomalous objects are. There are several events on this particular tape that originally came from a cable television channel back in the Maryland area that downlinked it on the NASA K-band. Basically, this was event number two, which shows a number of anomalous objects in this particular segment of footage, and there are a number of things that just simply don't stack up with what NASA is claiming that these things are. If you watch the entire segment, you will notice that several moments after this particular event happens, NASA begins preparing for the waste water dump. KING: OK, now, James are you with us now? Are we clicked in OK? JAMES OBERG, Space Engineer: That's fine. We can talk to outer space OK, but I had a problem with your- KING: OK, that's James Oberg, space engineer and author. He worked on flight control for the shuttle mission. And you say this is not phenomena, right? Mr. OBERG: It's a phenomenon that's very familiar. Larry, we see this since the fireflies on John Glenn's flight 30 years ago. Spacecraft are surrounded by clouds of debris - ice, dust, insulation, and other fragments. These pieces - and I've seen these tapes and I've seen hundreds of hours of tapes like that - are fairly ordinary phenomena. KING: OK, Don has a couple of quick questions for you. Don? Mr. ECKER: Yes. Jim, what capacity are you here in this evening? Are you here as a civilian? Are you here as a representative of Lockheed- Mr. OBERG: I'm not representing- Mr. ECKER: -or of NASA? Mr. OBERG: Don, don't give loaded questions, here. I have no connection with Lockheed. I'm a space nut. I'm interested in outer space myths and folklore- Mr. ECKER: So in other words, you're here on your own accord? KING: Yes, in other words, James, you're not here representing NASA, right? Mr. OBERG: I'll play it back, Don. I'm not here as editor of a magazine trying to sell subscriptions. KING: OK, no, James- Mr. ECKER: OK, let me ask you this- KING: Hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it- Mr. ECKER: Let me ask you this- KING: Hold it, hold it- Mr. ECKER: James- KING: Don- Don- Don, hold it. It's my show. James, you're not here as a representative of NASA, right? Mr. OBERG: No. No, I have written on this subject for a long time. KING: OK. Did you work on this mission? Mr. OBERG: Yes, I did. KING: In what capacity? Mr. OBERG: I was in the flight control center, part of helping the deployment of one of the satellites. So I was there for- KING: Are you a contracted employee to NASA? Mr. OBERG: Yes. Yes, I am. Yes, I am. KING: OK, but tonight you appear as James Oberg, space engineer- Mr. OBERG: That's right. KING: -not representing NASA? Mr. OBERG: That's correct. Mr. ECKER: All right, Larry, I have one more question for Jim- KING: OK, now, go ahead, Don. Go ahead. Mr. ECKER: Yes, I have one more question for him. Jim, are you working here under the constraints of any security agreements that you may have signed with NASA? Mr. OBERG: No, I'm not. Myself's not the issue. The issue are these pictures and the big deal people are making out of it. Mr. ECKER: Well, this is a simple question, Jim. Are you working under security constraints? KING: All right, no, James, that's a fair question. Did you sign any kind of an agreement with NASA not to reveal certain things? Mr. OBERG: DOD material, yes. This is not, and this is not covered. Nothing about this material is covered- Mr. ECKER: All right, let me- One last question, Jim- KING: `DOD' means Department of Defense material? Mr. OBERG: Department of Defense, that's right. KING: OK. Go ahead, Don. Mr. ECKER: One last question, and this question is very simple. With the security agreements that you have signed, before we start addressing this particular segment of footage, if you had any awareness of anomalous objects, would you be free to talk about them? And I'm talking about anomalous objects that are not our debris or our spacecraft. Mr. OBERG: I am totally free to talk about these kinds of topics, anything seen on the shuttle. I have talked about it. I have a long history of writing for Omni Magazine and other magazines and books- Mr. ECKER: Well, no, no, no, that's not what I'm saying- Mr. OBERG: -because it's clear- Mr. ECKER: You're usually on- Mr. OBERG: I'm giving you an expert opinion- KING: Don, Don, Don- Hold it. Guys, hold it. This is not a trial, Don. He answered the question. If it was not a Defense Department fear, he could talk about anything. Now, would you briefly, James- Mr. OBERG: There was nothing on STS-48 that was classified, nothing on that flight. KING: All right. Would you tell us, you are convinced beyond question that this is debris? Mr. OBERG: This looks just like it. Now, it could be someone masquerading at it. Look at those pieces. They're small pieces. Why is it that we see these- It's always small pieces, just at the limit of the cameras. There are always pieces like that floating around. When jets fire, when things leak out or are expelled from the shuttle, the jets hit pieces. They change direction. I've seen it- I wouldn't say hundreds of times, but I've seen it before on other missions. KING: Don, what do you think it is? If it's a UFO, what is it, Don? Mr. ECKER: Well, to begin with, Larry- KING: I mean, why don't they land here and talk to us? Mr. ECKER: If, in fact, it were debris- And Jim is very well aware that debris will tumble, will toss, will turn while in orbit. The close-up digitally-enhanced segment of this particular footage shows absolutely no tumbling motion, whatsoever. This is moving in a straight line. It makes a drastic right-angle turn, shoots off into space. Now, if, in fact, it were a result- Mr. OBERG: Don's got to watch some more tapes. He's got to watch a few hundred more hours of tapes and he'll see this all the time. Mr. ECKER: If, in fact, Jim- Just a moment. If, in fact, it were a piece of debris and if the attitude thrusters from the shuttle had been fired, then, the way the camera was set up on that particular mission, the entire shuttle picture would have moved, because it did several moments after this particular incident. Mr. OBERG: I'm just amazed how much Don can learn about the space program from so many thousands of miles away from Mission Control. These are the kinds of things- Mr. ECKER: Well, if, in fact, Jim, we're going to talk about this, fine. If we're going to start ad hominem attacks, that's something else. Mr. OBERG: All right, let's go back to the films. KING: We'll come right back with James Oberg and Don Ecker. We'll also include your phone calls on this extraordinary topic that never goes away. This is Larry King Live. Don't you go away. {Commercial break} KING: Let's start to include your phone calls for Don Ecker - he's a researcher with UFO Magazine - and James Oberg, space engineer and author. Huntsville, Alabama - famous area for outer space - hello. 4th CALLER: {Huntsville, Alabama} Hello? KING: Yes. 4th CALLER: My name is O.H. Bond, Jr. {sp?}. I'm in Huntsville, Alabama. KING: Yes, sir. 4th CALLER: I have an experiment on the shuttle which has flown a number of times called the Mesoscale Lightning Experiment {sp?}, in which we look for mesoscale lightning and we look for the effects of unusual events which occur in space. KING: And? 4th CALLER: Particularly, we look for lightning events which we've seen to go 20 miles straight up into the stratosphere from cloud stocks. KING: Meaning? 4th CALLER: The question I want to ask you guys is- With respect to these flying objects, I agree with James Oberg. From what I have seen over numbers of years of looking at video images, this is debris from the spacecraft, as far as I can determine. And the second thing is I believe that many of the objects we see are the other debris which is in orbit. KING: Don? Mr. ECKER: I would have to ask, Larry, that if, in fact, this is the case that this was debris from the shuttle, why is it not tumbling? Why did it make such a drastic turn? The fact that NASA claims- Mr. OBERG: Can I answer that? If you give me some time, I can answer that. Mr. ECKER: Well, the question was addressed to me first, and I'm asking the question, Jim, and then you can go to it. Mr. OBERG: And you'll make sure that you don't- You don't want the answer. KING: All right, but it's a fair question that Don puts, and let Jim respond to it. Why would a piece of debris move like that? I've never seen debris move like that. Mr. OBERG: Well, you have to- People can watch this. As the shuttle is going through orbit, people don't realize there are more than 50 points on the nose of the shuttle, the tail, on the side- more than 50 points where debris, water, ice, come off- from the belly. And as these pieces come off and rocket engines can fire, they'll form what are called plumes. They'll form a blast. And as debris will go into that area, they will turn, and you can watch this. Fortunately, we have on the SATCOM F2R satellite and on many, many cable networks the NASA select from space flight. It's the reason that these people saw this tape in the first place. I would simply recommend that they and anyone else watch that tape for more than a few hours. Watch it for several years, in terms of the missions. And they'll be seeing this kind of event. But the thing about why these are just debris and not spacecraft, alien spacecraft- They're always small. They're always just at the limit of the camera. KING: But you don't know- Mr. OBERG: No matter how much the camera is zoomed in, it's still just a dot- KING: James, this isn't 100 percent- Mr. OBERG: -and that just tells you these are little pieces. KING: You don't know it for sure, but it's your best educated guess, right? Mr. OBERG: I'll tell you, if we saw some real spacecraft- If I saw some real spacecraft - and I know many people in the space program - saw something out there that could be really proof of something revolutionary, there's no power on earth that would be able to stop people from coming out and being on your show- Mr. ECKER: Larry, one thing- KING: All right, let me get a call in. Sykesville, Maryland, hello. 5th CALLER: {Sykesville, Maryland} Hello, this is Vincent DiPetro {sp?}. KING: Yes. 5th CALLER: From Sykesville, Maryland. KING: Yes. 5th CALLER: I originally did an analysis of this very tape that you're showing on TV. KING: Uh-huh. 5th CALLER: And I'd like to make a few comments about this. KING: Are you a scientist? 5th CALLER: I work at Goddard Space Flight Center. I'm an engineer. KING: OK. 5th CALLER: I work with the space program. KING: All right. 5th CALLER: But I'm doing this freelance. And I'd like to say that I've sent this to a number of scientists, called a number of engineers, and they've all described this event as ice. KING: Ice? 5th CALLER: Ice, that has turned in a way- If you look at the other debris that's on the screen, you'll see that in every case there is a right-angle turn that is made of this debris. In other words, it's not- Mr. ECKER: Well, Vince- Vince, let me ask you a question, because I have the entire tape. And I also have the section that you digitally enhanced that shows clearly a domed disc object that was recorded on this mission. Do you deny that? 5th CALLER: I see that on there, and I do not know what that is. Mr. ECKER: Did you digitally enhance it? 5th CALLER: Yes. Mr. ECKER: OK. Did it look to you like an anomalous object, or did it look like debris or ice? 5th CALLER: It looks like an object, but I can't explain what it is. And I'm not saying that it isn't something that you're describing. The only thing I'm saying is that the explanation that I have gotten is that this debris is ice. There's no way of determining how big it is. It could be a microinch, a couple of inches. It's certainly not several hundred feet across, as a lot of people would be led to believe. And the explanation I got was that there were rockets, little tiny rockets, that are used to change the attitude of the spacecraft on the sides; that when those things go off- It's nitric acid and hydrozene that fires these rockets. When they go off- Mr. ECKER: Yes, and there is no flash, either, is there, Vince? 5th CALLER: There is a flash that you can see at the beginning. And if you are so careful as to take a piece of cellophane and put it onto your TV set, you will see that all of these objects- Not the ones that are stars, because the stars you can clearly see go behind the horizon. But if you look at the debris that flies from left to right and so forth, everything makes a right-hand turn. It's even less- Mr. ECKER: Well, Vince, since you worked on this particular piece of footage, let me ask you another question. Before this event happens, this object rises up out of the blackness and is traveling from right to upper left. Now, if, in fact, it was there prior to the start of this sequence, how do you explain that? 5th CALLER: I explain that in this way. If you listen {sp?} to the tape carefully, you will see that the spacecraft is just coming out of twilight into sunlight. Now, if there was debris flying around in the blackness of space, you would not see it until it was lit up. KING: OK. All right, we're going to have to do some more on this- Mr. OBERG: Or it might have come over the payload bay where the lights are. Either way, that would explain it. KING: Let me get a break, and we'll come right back. Thanks for calling, Vince, by the way. We'll come back with more. This is fascinating - I don't understand it, but it's fascinating! Don't go away. {Commercial break} KING: All right, we're running close on time. Don, are we ever going to see one of these land on the White House lawn and speak to us? Mr. ECKER: Well, I don't know about landing on the White House lawn, Larry, but we had in 1952 three flights that overflew the White House. I have one last question that I want to ask Jim very quickly and briefly. KING: All right, real fast. Mr. ECKER: Jim, are you aware of any NASA studies on UFO phenomena? Mr. OBERG: I'm aware, Don, of 30 years of phony stories- Mr. ECKER: And I'm not saying spaceships. I'm saying- Mr. OBERG: -in UFO magazines- Mr. ECKER: I'm saying- Mr. OBERG: -taking transcripts- KING: Guys, we'll have you both come back. We're out of time. Thanks, fellows- Mr. OBERG: -and faking them. KING: OK, thanks. We're out of time. Thanks very much. Hope you enjoyed this edition of `Don Ecker Live' from Washington. {laughs} A little fun there. *END* ********************************************** * THE U.F.O. BBS - http://www.ufobbs.com/ufo * **********************************************