SUBJECT: THE PHOENIX PROJECT FROM A GENIE FORUM FILE: UFO2498 PART 1 Filename: Phoenix1.Thd Type : Message Thread Author : Various/Compiled by Ed Stewart Edited : Dan Brown Date : 08/08/92 (received) Desc. : Message thread about the Phoenix Project from a GEnie Forum ----------------------------------------------------------------------- P. MIDDLER [Paul]: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- So far, the Phoenix Project has released three reports: * The Dulce Report (Summary file: DULCEDOC.ZIP) An extensive study of an area that was claimed to have an underground U.S./Alien base. * The Ultimate Secret (Summary file: ULTSEC.TXT) The Majority Agency for Joint Intelligence (MAJI) The Secret War Against The Aliens Star Wars (SDI) Exposed * K-2 -- A Secret California Alien Base (Summary file: K2RPT.TXT) Their discovery of an underground Alien base at Pilot Peak, Plumas County, California. More are expected to be released in mid-to-late August. The following is a message I discovered on Fido:UFO from Jack Mathias, Phoenix Project Spokesperson, addressed to All: As stated in the beginning of each of our reports, [excluding ULTSEC.TXT] the Phoenix Project is a private, civilian, research organization without any official affiliation to any branch of the United States government. It came into existence by chance in 1952 when a group of "buddies" met and discussed their ideas. Even back in the early days of the UFO flap it was becoming obvious that the truth was not being released. Because of this the Phoenix Project started. As did the other organizations. However, unlike these others, we remained in the shadows, never releasing any information until it was felt the time had arrived. That time has come. The Phoenix Project has never and does not seek publicity. And, for obvious reasons. We also value what every other person does; security and safety. It is because of this that there is not much more that we can say regarding our organization. One of our investigators became involved in the UFO cover-up during the Mantell incident of 1948 and later became a special investigator with Project Blue Book until 1952. Two investigators were members of the Air Force and three were Navy. Each of these people, was, at one time or another, either attached to or connected with the intelligence edifice. However, remaining in the shadows mandates that the organizations, divisions, etc., not be disclosed. It is through these activities and/or contacts made during the time of military involvement that the team has been able to obtain much of our information. These contacts are loyal and trusted personal friends who we have known for more than twenty years and since every bit of information supplied by these people has checked out, we firmly believe that we have not been suppliedany disinformation. Because of our past intelligence backgrounds and to protect this on going relationship with these contacts, revealing our true identity could jeopardize the personal safety of ourselves, our families and theirs as well. We have all witnessed examples of "termination with extreme prejudice," a phrase whose meaning is well known within the intelligence community. .............. Jack Mathias believes people have a reason to doubt the Phoenix Project findings, since their identities will remain secret. He did think Paranet jumped to conclusions about the Dulce and K-2 reports. Jack recommends getting the reports for reference and go check them out. I cannot think of a good reason why the Phoenix Project would be a hoax. The reports cost between $10.00 and $12.50, so they are not making much money from this. If there are some questions about the Phoenix Project and I don't have the answer, I could forward them to Jack Mathias to see what he says. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- M. MASTALER [Mike]: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul.... thanks for starting this topic. I just got information of their reports, and as you said , they are quite reasonable. Here are some more reports they say will be ready Aug 30, 1992: K-2 supplemental report. The NASA presence at Quincy The Area 51 report The Joint US/Alien research base # 920815 $10 (opps,that K-2 report # is 920820 $10 ) The"icecaves" report The Los Alamos US/Alien base # 920830 $12.50 Advent Publishing Company PO box 3748 Carson City NV. 89702 Send them a S.A.S.E. to get a complete list of their reports. Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- E. STEWART8: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I am somewhat puzzled by these folks that call themselves the Phoenix Project. They say they are tight personal friends of each other and first organized themselves in 1952 after having shared careers together in military intelligence. Well, that means they have known each other for at least forty years and not twenty. Also, that should put them around seventy to eighty years old. Somehow, I am having a hard time visualing these folks scurrying around the Plumas National Forest gathering evidence incognito. It is tough enough for a young hiker to trek through that country, much less a setpuagenarian. But, I guess we will never know since they feel their true identities must remain secret. Ed ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Name Not Present in Header ----------------------------------------------------------------------- A joint US/Alien reserach base?! Into what are they doing research? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- GDW. SUPPORT: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Orbital mind control lasers? Some of the guys must be a least 60, but there might have been some `additions' later on. From looking at the files, one can see that they must of had help with the magnetic survey, since I doubt that military intelligence personnel are familiar with using such equipment. As far as age goes, they may have had help from family and friends. I had received the same type of listing as Mike did, but I found out that people who received their lists just a week ago had a slightly different list. The differences included a July 30th date (instead of Aug 30th) and another report called K-3 -- A Secret Alien Base used for Controlled Humans. For some reason, they had to delay the reports by one month. I'm still not sure if they are for real, but I don't understand why anyone would go through such trouble to perpetrate a hoax. I heard that their logo is not a registered trademark, as the files suggest, but the source of the info is exceedingly unreliable. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- P. MIDDLER [Paul]: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, Jack Mathias hasn't been on FidoNet for a couple of days which suggests he is either on a field trip or he is trying to lay low for awhile. Maybe his `group' doesn't like him to leak information, or someone is getting close to figuring out that it's one big hoax. The heliport near Quincy belongs to the forest service and there is a NASA facility along the restricted road that leads to the heliport. At night, the NASA people shine a green beam into the sky. Their experiments are either related to earthquake monitoring or atmospheric monitoring. The Phoenix Project is creating a report on NASA's presence there. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- M. MASTALER [Mike]: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Keep it comin' Paul !! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- G. COX11 [GARY]: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul You've tricked me again - first time I've been online "live" in sometime - surprised to see this topic. Someone just dumped me a copy of the k-2 report today - I haven't had time to read it yet. My off the cuff comment is that no one - I mean that - could find a superbly hidden underground base of unknown size with only a general idea of the location. What would be found - is a series of anolamous readings and findings and it would cost a small fortune to determine the true source of these readings. And this includes a fullscale survey by leading professionals using the very best equipment that exists. So it would be hard to prove or disprove anything of this nature without a lot more cash that the total sum of ufo enthusiasts could raise. I will get back here after I read k-2... I should would appreciate it if someone could tell me how to subscribe to this good stuff off of internet? The copy I have originated out of Pro-Net Australia Board... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- P. MIDDLER [Paul]: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Gary, The Phoenix Project claims to have access to all the expensive equipment necessary to do the survey. Since Phoenix is a secretive organization, one cannot be sure if they have or don't have access to specialized equipment. Someone on FidoNet:UFO is planning to get some of his prospecting buddies together (one works just 10 miles from K-2) and they will do a magnetometer survey to check the Phoenix Project's findings. Why do you have to get your material from Australia? I got the material from FidoNet:UFO and Compuserve. Jack Mathias, the Phoenix Project Spokesman, places the reports on both of these nets. From there it eventually ends up in Australia. I'm not familiar with Internet, but if you get on a BBS that has it, they probably have hefty useage charges. There's a BBS called NetCom and they have UseNet's:alt.alien.visitor . I haven't called them, but the phone no. is 408-241-9760 and type "Guest". BUT you'll probably get big long distance bills and they probably charge for access to their BBS. The important posts that come from there are often reposted on Fido:UFO, so you might look for a local BBS that has it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- P. MIDDLER [Paul]: (Forwarded Message By Mike Corbin) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ParaNet UFO Echo#1726 Dt: 07-26-92 23:56 By: Paranet(sm) Information Service To: All Re: Strong Word Of Caution! Over the last few days we have been posting information supplied by the Phoenix Project of Carson City, Nevada. This information has been strongly disclaimed by ParaNet pending the results of our investigation to determine the validity of the Phoenix Project and its officers. While the investigation is still ongoing, we have found some highly disturbing things relating to credibility of the group. This information will be reported as soon as the investigation is completed. This should be in the next few days. Until this investigation is complete and the findings published, ParaNet wishes to urge everyone not to send any money to the group. Michael Corbin Director --- FD 1.99c * Origin: ParaNet -- Leading UFO Research Network (1:104/428.0) [Well, It's been a week since that was posted and so far they have not reported on their findings. Shortly after this message was posted, Michael Corbin sent a message to Jack Mathias, telling him to reveal the names of the Phoenix Project members. ParaNet may just be blowing smoke. They are trying to set-up an atmosphere in which it is necessary for them to reveal their identity. They should have already posted the disturbing information if they had any. Otherwise all they have is probably a bunch of rumors.] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- G. COX11 [Gary]: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul et al I've spent some going over the K2 report here and have some general observations to make. An uncanny absence of sounds in a wilderness area is hardly unusual - it would be normal for the local fauna to shut down due to the intrusion of humans into their turf. The feeling of being watched is hardly unusual - it occurrs frequently with city slicker types who feel paranoid without throbbing masses of humanity surrounding them. Further in sensitive individuals with a great deal of experience in this phenomena - it can be a very reliable guage. The reaction of the local rangers was typical in all respects. It's not unusual for any area to be non-radar observed - large areas of the US are void of radar coverage. The initial tale of the discovery of the K2 site via triangulation of transmitted signals is a little flakey - someone just happens to hear an unusual transmission and keeps monitoring it - with SW there are many such transmissions. The closed mouthed loggers - this is common in an industry under attack by greens, etc. Samething for the road improvements coinciding with new logging in the area. A magnetometer is old technology at best - the portable kind aren't as fine tuned and data productive as the report stated. A computer generated frequency density map of the survey - which I didn't get a copy of - would be of interest. My interest would be seeing if the survey produced any unnatural geometry. Since a mag was used - the formation must be fairly shallow - if so a portable core drill could be used to sample the formation. If I was directing the mag team - I would ask for a comparative survey in an adjacent area to determine if either was anomalous to the area. A third survey would be fairly conclusive. Further a professional look at the area would include a fresh aerial survey - with aerial stereo pix used to generate an AutoCad map of the site. The next step would be a real look underground with GPR ground penetrating radar and using an AutoLISP/AutoCad program to produce a 3- d map. After looking at the results I could decide whether it would be worth sinking a drill bit in for a log or coring, etc. Interestingly enough - Phoenix's initial contact was Dr. Peter Sturrock at SRI...GPR was developed by Dr.Lambert Dolphin at SRI. If NASA truly shows an interest in K2 - it would be a serious give away if they were doing aerial photography and toting around some GPR equipment. Further it might serve someones purpose to fabricate this data and activity at K2 and wait and see who shows up. If the feds showed a serious interest it would tend to promote the alien connection whether the site is authentic or not...The most curious part of the report was the pond - was this a beaver dam? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- P. MIDDLER [Paul]: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Gary, I always feel like someone is watching me. You said a number of things, so I will respond to your message next time since I am tired. In the mean time, I stole this message off a Net to show that a group of people are making an effort to check out K-2. * Forwarded from "FidoNet UFO Echo" * Originally from Steve Jones * Originally to Warren York * Originally dated 08-01-92, 7:56 [From ] Steve Jones [To ] Warren York [Date ] 01 Aug 92 07:56:02 [Subject ] Re: Phoenix project Greetings Warren- I am not surprised about Thunder, Inc. Jack Mathias just left me a post that the address for the company puts inside the base boundaries for Kirkland. So much for that contact, but purhaps he still might be contacted just for drill. As I told Jack, even though I'm not from the state (Missouri I think) I am very much of a "show me" person, and as such, I am still not 100% convinced about Dulce. He respects that, which to me is a good sign. I have receved the K2 report and it is most interesting. There are several pages of X, Y coordinate data from the magnetometer, pictures of the site and specific locations of the cavern outlets, a blown up version of the topo map of the location (Bluenose Mountain Quadrangle- 7.5 minute series), a map showing the radar zone coverage for that area (including the dead spots). These guys are definitely no into this for the profit. If I were making this packet available, the cost of $12.50 would just about cover my expenses. The audio tape of the original transmissions that keyed these guys to that location are indeed strange. They are heavily modulated and overlayed with what sound like synthesizer signatures of a random sort. I strongly suspect that once these are lifted, the data tracks can be located. I can see why the guys at Stanford and at Ames didn't want anything to do with the tapes. anyone with sound engineering background should have a crack at this tape. I am looking into that. I have a group that is going to be doing a long term observation of the site and I am looking for qualified volunteers. This site observation will be from August 5 through the end of the month if possible. It may be shorter due to lack of manpower. This is strictly a scientific observation expedition and as such there will be absolutely no hostile intents. From what the report has stated (they did have a CE4 incident) the greys are just as curious about us as we are about them and respect those with non-hostile intents. Anyone who is interested should be over 18 years of age and be prepared for some possible heavy duty mental activity (as in grilling by the locals and the government people up there- and according to what I've heard there may be lots of them). Those interested should leave e-mail for either myseld or Dan Brown, my co-moderator (of the Sacramento UFO SIG). I am looking into the possiblity of some anthro graduate students coming with us. Everyone will be briefed before leaving. As I am sure that you are aware, I suspect that this transmission is monitored and I have no discomfort with the idea that they probably know that we are coming (the government). That is why I am making this as public as possible. They hate publicity. Even before this post, over 50 friends of mine are fully aware of were I'm going and why. Warren, I have communicated with you several times over the past two years and respect you positions. Keep me posted. TTYL....Steve Jones (co-moderator of the Sacramento UFO Group) --- FMail 0.90 * Origin: Gates Of Delirium (916)446-7286: (1:203/163) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- G. COX11 [GARY]: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanx Paul - I know what you mean!(g) What have you heard about the Dulce location? Both the Phoenix reports were real mind blowers. With a large group of observers at the K2 - there should be some very interesting stuff coming out fairly soon...keep up with great info... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- P. MIDDLER [Paul]: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Gary, I haven't heard anything further about ParaNet's complaint about the Dulce report. The report is about 18 pages long, compared to K-2's 60 pages, so it doesn't have much detail in it. The airborn magnetometer map looks like a shaded contour map. They don't give any examples of data like they do in the K-2 report. Now, going back to your message on K-2: I don't know why the report included useless information such as the lack of rodents, the feeling of being watched, and "boiling" clouds. The content of the report suggested they were paranoid. > unusual transmission and keeps monitoring it - with SW there are many > such transmissions. Yes, but these particular transmissions are strange. The transmissions sound like bizarre music. There is a voice on them repeating words that I just can't make out. It sounds like "see the bears"? The transmissions carry no data. It sounds like a bizarre relaxation or subliminal suggestion tape with strange electronic sounds, including whale sounds. It has nothing to do with aliens. > A magnetometer is old technology at best - the portable kind aren't as > fine tuned and data productive as the report stated. It depends what type of magnetometer they were using. There is no mention of what type they used in the report. Modern magnetometers shouldn't have any problem detecting an alien base, since geologists use it to discover mineral deposits. I'm not familiar with the magnetometer's operation, but modern ones use some sort of nuclear resonance. >My interest would be seeing if the survey produced any unnatural >geometry. They made the conclusion that these tunnels and compartments were unnatural because they were aligned with magnetic north. They were apparently rectangular. These compartments were not connected in the field data, so they think there were adjoining tunnels that are magnetically disguised by the compartments near the surface. There were two large entrances that had dead-ends. One was 40 feet wide at the entrance and narrowed down to 15 feet; the total length was 270 feet into the mountain. The section of the mountain (hill) that was surveyed included magnetometer readings above the accessable tunnels. I don't know why these entrances had dead-ends. Greys are suppose to have the power to pass through walls, so they could pass through the dead- end, but why is there an entrance tunnel at the surface? Inside the mountain, the magnetometer readings showed four chambers. One was 20 feet by 75 feet with 10 feet wide tunnels extending 50+ feet to the north and to the south. This chamber was made of fused rock because the magnetometer readings above it had dropped. There were two tunnels that were 160+ and 190 feet long and 10 to 20 feet wide. The readings increased above them, so they apparently were metallic. On one side of the surveyed quadrant was a large chamber that extended beyond the 400 foot quadrant and it was metallic. The actual size of the chamber was not determined. The chambers could be natural deposits, but the magnetic north-south orientation seems odd. >Since a mag was used - the formation must be fairly shallow They made no mention of depth, but I assume they could use a portable core drill. But, the Phoenix Project seems to be worried about appearing hostile toward the aliens, so trying to drill into their home would be a hostile act. >Further a professional look at the area would include a fresh aerial >survey with aerial stereo pix used to generate an AutoCad map of the >site. The next step would be a real look underground with GPR ground >penetrating radar and using an AutoLISP/AutoCad program to produce a 3- >d map. After looking at the results I could decide whether it would be >worth sinking a drill bit in for log or coring, etc. Gee...you sound like you're familiar with underground surveys. If you supply the equipment and the money, I'll lend a helping hand . Well..I doubt the Phoenix Project would have enough money to do a complete survey. And I doubt anyone else would do that. >Further it might serve someones purpose to fabricate this data and >activity at K2 and wait and see who shows up. If the feds showed a >serious interest it would tend to promote the alien connection whether >the site is authentic or not...The most curious part of the report was >the pond - was this a beaver dam? I don't know why someone would hoax it. Just having the military or USGS there doesn't really strengthen "the alien connection". If the USGS wastes their time and finds out it's a mineral deposit or a hoax, then the Phoenix Project is dead. They apparently saw a Grey at the site and it `talked' to one of them. The pond is dyked, so humans created the `dam'. Paul ----------------------------------------------------------------------- G. COX11 [GARY]: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Have they (Phoenix) done a report on the Dulce site? At least with all the activity at K2 something should come out of it. Maybe we can open a snack bar there to finance our stay?(g) On Cooper - the Psi BB had a message regarding a fight he got into with another UFO researcher - forgot the guys name - Van something - I've seen him on tv a few times. At least Cooper's story would explain things like the Landrum incident. With goverment testing of alien technology. I read something interesting recently - there are always tales about strange objects and artificial looking formations on the moon. There is an artificial appearing object near the crater archimedes and lower appenine highlands - in the mountains South of the great crater there appears to be a huge structure located in some foothills. Lunar Orbiter IV produced a poor photo of the object - and the area was rephotographed by Apollo 15. People have ordered 5"x48" Apollo 15 mapping photos and have had them examined by high powered stereo microscopes and determined that the newer NASA photos have been airbrushed - the object erased. When comparing the various sets of NASA photos with some done at the Lick Observatory - it's clear NASA reworked things. Some people think this is done mainly to fool planetary scientist's here - who accept anything NASA gives them... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- M. MASTALER [Mike]: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Gary; Can you be VERY speccific on those lunar photos ? Do you have the nasa numbers of them ? I can go over to the *space topic, and someone there has access to these photos. then wo can maybe get some scientific feedback. Thanks Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Gary, A snack bar is a good idea. I'm sure those aliens are pretty hungry. If you want the Dulce Report, there's DULCEDOC.ZIP in the library or, if you don't have an unZipper, there's DULCEDOC.TXT in the Space library. The spaceship in the Landrum case is strange, not like your average E.T. ship. Maybe it was an experimental reactor that caught fire. Somehow, I think the lawyer might have been able to do a better job at presenting the case. The judge expected high ranking military personnel to leak classified information, so the case died when they didn't. The reason why I don't like Cooper is because he gives out information that is obviously incorrect. Since he doesn't realize some things he says are blatantly wrong, it makes me think he is either a lousy researcher or he is making it up. Disinformation is a no-no for UFOlogists, it has poisoned his reputation within the UFO community. Reguarding the Moon pictures; I haven't heard about that, I'll ask around and see if anyone else has heard about it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- GRAFFITI [Ric Helton]: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- [1 =very= long message deleted, and the author asked to break it up or upload to the library....] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- P. MIDDLER [Paul]: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The Paranet message basically linked the Phoenix Project with America West Publishers and the Phoenix Liberator. They are known for their communications with a Commander Hattoon, who is in a spaceship that circles the Earth. Jack Mathias has often put down that organization, so it's funny that he's linked with them. The full story is still unknown to ParaNet and they are continuing their investigation. I will upload the ParaNet message and a file on Commander Hattoon into the library. --- ********************************************** * THE U.F.O. BBS - http://www.ufobbs.com/ufo * **********************************************