SUBJECT: NEW AGE FORUM 24-MAY-92 FILE: UFO2961 Wherever I have added comments, to make the text a bit more readable, I have placed by additions within brackets, i.e. []. *********** New Age Forum 24-May-92 17:52:42 Rilla/Sysop: David, do you want to explain the rules? David/Moderator: Ummm, could you this first time, please? Rilla/Sysop: Sure...in a formal conference, David will be the | moderator... | he will keep track of whose turn it is to speak... | please dont interrupt the speaker and wait until it is your | turn... | when you have a question type "?"... | David will notice and call on you in turn... | if you want, you can type "!" for a comment... | you still will be called on in turn... | when it is your turn you type your lines followed by elipses... | until you are finished. Then you type "ga" which indicates | that you... | are finished and ready to have an answer. Is this clear for | everyone? Tony Alicea: Yes\ David/Moderator: What's an elipse? Tony Alicea: ... Rilla/Sysop: Elipses are a series of ... | David/Moderator: ...OK...ga Rilla/Sysop: ok...then Ray will turn on the buffer and we will begin... | David> GA Tony Alicea: ? David/Moderator: ...OK, Tonight I thought we would start with the movie | "Intruders"... | ga Tony Tony Alicea: You answered the Q. It's about UFO's, The CO? | ga Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: Yes, we'll start off with Intruders I think... | Joe > ga Joe Balsamo: I just wanted to say that I thought that it was a very good | movie on the subject, considering it was on prime time TV... | I wonder if we will see more and more of this brought into | mainstream. ga David/Moderator: It was good indeed, but I'm afraid many people will | consider it science | fiction when in reality it is based on true facts from many | people. I think the biggest | problem most people have is admitting abduction scenerios | actually exist...ga Tony Alicea: ! David/Moderator: Tony > ga Tony Alicea: *I* have a problem w/abductions. I have read "Close | encounters." by the guy | from Northwestern U., and I find it hard to believe...GA Joe Balsamo: ! Rilla/Sysop: ? David/Moderator: Abductions are a fact of life. Too many people have | experienced them... | with very REAL physical marks left over to just deny there | existence.. | Joe > ga Joe Balsamo: Many things that are too far outside of the norm people find | difficult to believe. Hopkins makes a point in his book about | the | difficulty... | people had after the 2nd world war (even today) or accepting | the Holocost. This isn't because it wasn't real, but just too | far | outside the normal...GA David/Moderator: Rilla > ga Rilla/Sysop: Ok... | I didnt see the program INTRUDERS... | but from what I can gather it was basically about abductions... | two questions... | Did it SAY plainly that these abductions were based on Fact and | cite the ... | cases? Also...is it going to be a series or was it a one shot | deal? GA Joe Balsamo: ! Tony Alicea: ! David/Moderator: OK... | It did cite, at the beginning and end of the movie, that | the movie based on more than ONE.... | account, in fact several, and had been put into movie form. It | was just a one shot deal, from... | what I can gather. No, it did not cite any specific cases, | from what I could see... | Joe > ga Joe Balsamo: Rilla, I would highly suggest reading the book | 'Intruders'... | I think most books are better than movies, anyway. Also, the | book is a nonfictional account of the UFO experiences... | of several people. The names have been changed to protect | privacy, but this stuff is real, it has been brought back... | using hypnotic regression. GA Rilla/Sysop: ! David/Moderator: Tony > ga Tony Alicea: Thanks, | ... | I meant to say "The UFO Experience" by J. Allen Hyneck, Tech | Consultant to... | the movie Close Encounters of the... | ... | WHat about the Mileer case? Hypnotism was used, rigth? ga David/Moderator: OK... | Tony, even Hyneck came to belive in the UFO abduction problem. | He even researched several by himself... | About the Miller case?, I'm not sure I'm familiar with the one | your stating,... | perhaps you could elaborate more. | Rilla > ga Rilla/Sysop: Tony, did you want to elaborate first? Tony Alicea: no,... ga Rilla/Sysop: ok... | I just wanted to say that I dont doubt the authenticity of the | abduction... | stories. My best friend found out through hypnosis.. | that her phobias were a result of the fact that SHE is an | abductee... | she cant confront the details yet...even in deep hypnosis... | nor can she read anything about UFO's or Schribers books... | its really creepy. What DO you think of Schribers books, btw? | ga Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: Schribers books are indeed excellant, but I worry | sometimes about his... | reasons behind the books. He says he was abducted, and yet | some belive that he is in... | involved in the conspiracy with the government. For the most | part I believe what he has to say...Joe > ga Joe Balsamo: Tony, did you want to elaborate further on your idea...GA Tony Alicea: about the miller case? | ga Joe Balsamo: yes ga David/Moderator: Yes, Tony, if Joe doesn't mind, would you elaborate..ga Tony Alicea: well give me a few mins... Others GA David/Moderator: OK, Joe > ga Joe Balsamo: Ok... | I was just going to say that the Schreiber books are an | interesting read, but I like a little more methodology to get | to the heart | of what is going on... | I also just wanted to interject on what the impression of the | general in 'Intruders' was, I thought the movie did a good job | of | portraying the military point of view :) ga David/Moderator: Ok... Rilla/Sysop: ? David/Moderator: I agree with the military point of view the movie | interjected, and many... | people DO believe the military is indeed involved. The big | problem is trying to decide just how... | deeply involved the military is. Did they establish an Alien | government pact, like many belive, .... | or are they simply trying to find answers to the UFO mystery as | a whole... | Rilla > ga Rilla/Sysop: What WAS the military's view?... | and if the Aliens are of a higher enough intelligence... | to get themselves here in the first place... | I would think that they would be intelligent enough... | NOT to get involved with the miltary OR ESPECIALLY our | government! GA Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: Ok.. | First, the governments point of view, in the movie, was they | knew of UFO's but had not yet discovered.... | why they are here, what they want, and if they prove a security | risk.... | Therefore, they refused to tell the people until they could | answer these questions for themselves....AS for the second | point... | many people believe the aliens are here for sinister reasons, | and that they have entered into... | a collaboration with our government to avoid possible conflicts | in the future... | Joe > ga Joe Balsamo: OK... Rilla/Sysop: ! Joe Balsamo: I think that the US government may have some recovered | vehicles, may have some dead, frozen aliens, and _may_ have | even had a live | alien at one time... Tony Alicea: ! Joe Balsamo: This is speculation drawn from eyewitness accounts and other | data. I DO NOT think the US government knows a lot more than | it's | citizens are being abducted in a specified manner by an alien | technology. I DO NOT think that aliens are involved with | the... | US government, for the very reasons that Rilla points out. I | also don't think the aliens _are_ a threat to us, in fact their | ultimate purpose is quite unclear. GA David/Moderator: OK... Rilla > ga Rilla/Sysop: ok.... | I know that I am somewhat of an idealist ... | but I have a really hard time believing that a civilization | that is... | advanced enough to be capable of and have experienced space | travel... | could be here for "sinister" reasons. sigh...idealism dies | hard. GA David/Moderator: Tony > ga Tony Alicea: I am sorry, It's not the "Miller" case *but* The Betty And | Barney *HILL* case | ... | that I was reffering to! (long time...) I must leave now; so | have a good... | weekend ... Peace!; Bye David/Moderator: Bye Tony, sorry to see you leave..ga Rilla/Sysop: ? David/Moderator: Rilla > ga Rilla/Sysop: For the record.. | will one of you elaborate on the Hill case...I think I remember | it but not... | sure...werent they abducted and operated on? | ga David/Moderator: Would you like to elaborate Joe? ga Joe Balsamo: Sure... | This case is very similar in its basic nature to the cases | described in the general abduction literature that has happened | to | literally millions of people worldwide... | A couple was abducted, sperm samples [taken] from him, gyn | [gynecological] exam on her, | but one of the most interesting aspects of the Hill case is | that | Betty was 'shown' a star map... Rilla/Sysop: ? Joe Balsamo: that did not conform to any known systems until years later | when certain stars coincided propely denoting the Zeta Reticuli | system. | GA David/Moderator: Rilla > ga Rilla/Sysop: wow! Ok... | Are most people's recollections ... | of the abductions always NEGATIVE? I would think that at least | SOME... | woud be positive. And I have another question after tis one | ga David/Moderator: OK... | Well, some abductee's feel almost "special" to have been | abducted. Even though tests have been performed on them... | they feel they were selected for a higher purpose of some kind, | and yet it seems almost ALL... | abduction cases involve medical exams. Other are talked to and | made to believe that they are some part of a plan, ... | which the alien's have planned for us... Rilla, next question > | ga Rilla/Sysop: sorry... | trying to answer sen questions and talk... | ok... | my other question involves the phobias... | Are these common for abductees? | ga Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: I know what phobias are, but could you be more specific? | What kinds of phobia's exactly...ga Rilla Rilla/Sysop: Well...specifically flying... | but also issues of "safety" | you know... | abnormal worry about accidents, kids safety, health, financial | problems... | I dont know how to be more specific. CONTROL issues. GA David/Moderator: I get it... | Yes, many people afterwards are afraid of such things as | flying, medical exams, doctors, | they are scared of the dark, abnormally afraid for there | children, constantly seem unclean, and so forth... | I believe that its just natural to have such 'phobias' after | such a trying experience... | Joe > ga Joe Balsamo: ok... | It seems to me from the stuff that I have read in the abduction | literature, it seems that the experience is similar to any | other | kind of violent assault... | But it is worsened by the fact that the abductee KNOWS it will | happen again, something that most crime victims don't have to | contend with... | At the same time it seems that the aliens don't _mean_ to be | causing harm, its almost as if they don't understand. GA Rilla/Sysop: ? David/Moderator: Rilla > ga Rilla/Sysop: That reminds me of another question... | has there been any change, according to the documentation... | in the way the abductions and examinations are carried out... | that would show that the aliens are coming to understand our... | physical or psychological makeup any better? Are they being... | "kinder and gentler" aliens? | ga David/Moderator: Rilla,... Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: It doesn't appear that the aliens are learning anything | from all those exams, in fact... | they seem to carry on the same work over and over again... Rilla/Sysop: excuse me.. | that doesnt make any sense at all in light of how intelligent | they would... | have to be...does it? ga David/Moderator: Not really.... | unless they are here for sinister reasons, or something we | can't yet understand...ga Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: Joe > ga. Joe Balsamo: Thanks... | I don | whoops... | I don't think that this is the case at all, there ddoes seem to | be some indication that they have performed their experiments | in a | variety of ways... | I don't know how systematic they studies of the improvement of | the procedures are...perhaps we can get an NSF grant to study | it? :) | GA Rilla/Sysop: David/Moderator: | I don't necessarily agree. Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: the aliens seem to be conducting the same work, under | different ways... | but the same type of tests over and over again. Perhaps we are | working with different groups of aliens?..... Joe > ga Joe Balsamo: I think part of the problem in researching this issue is | that it is impossible to get any funding for serious | research... | this being the case, we have to rely on people like Budd | Hopkins who do it as an advocation and help to abductees. | But, of | course, if the government doesn't want this info out... | that will never happen (getting funded research) GA Rilla/Sysop: ? David/Moderator: Yes, but another big in researching this work is the | hypnotist's themselves... | if during regressive hypnosis, the hypnotist is not EXTREMELY | carefull, he will push off his thoughts onto the person he.... | or she is regressing......Rilla > ga Rilla/Sysop: Hypnosis is not the technique to use IMHO... | there are too many uncontrolled variables and we cant say for | certain... | exactly WHO we are talking to while in a regressed situation... | the person, an ego state, a disembodied spirit, a separate | personality... | etc. It is not an exact enough science to be trusted even by | those of us... | who believe in it. That said...my REAL question was... | someone has mentioned building a data base on here... | of known sightings and abductions... | what if you were to put the word out that we were doing such a | gathering... | of data... | on a system as large and as international as this one... | SOMEONE would bound to take notice... | and if you began to get pressure or funny things started | happening... | you would have some sort of clarification at least for | yourselves. ga David/Moderator: Rilla, are you telepathic> ga Joe Balsamo: ! Rilla/Sysop: David> yes | and clairaudient so watch what youre thinking!! | David/Moderator: YES MAAM.....Joe ga Joe Balsamo: sorry... David/Moderator: Joe> ga! Joe Balsamo: minor kitchen crisis... | I think that Rilla's idea is fantastic! I'm a database | designer in real life, so I would love to design a system to | input the data | into... | If we do catch the attention of the CIA or whomever, it would | not be the first time that people have been hassled over this | affair. GA David/Moderator: Rilla... | What would be the possiblity of establishing such a database? | ga Rilla/Sysop: what do you mean? We have a data library here for your use. | More than that? | ga David/Moderator: I would think so, Joe.... | are you talking of like a 'real' database type system?...ga Joe Balsamo: Well... | A real database wether it is computerised or not, has to have | some internal consistency to be of any use... | for example, we are going to need to establish parameters that | people are going to have to report on and try to quantify as | much as | possible... | the hard part is going to be the leg work (finger work?) of | getting the word out and getting a report form and all that | stuff, then | building a hypercard stack or whatever ain' no big deal GA Rilla/Sysop: ? David/Moderator: Rilla > ga Rilla/Sysop: Joe Walters> you have a better idea of the operations of CIS | data bases... | Do you have any comments or suggestions here? ga Joe Walters: Not really... | That sounds more like the sort of thing... | that requires a single user to collate and construct... | into a user-accesible database form, hopefully... | in some manner usable by MS-DOS types, Mac users, Apple II... | folks, etc. etc. Beyond my fields of expertise! :-) ga Rilla/Sysop: ! David/Moderator: Joe... Joe Walters: (the HyperCard stack idea was probably the most | user-friendly approach) David/Moderator: Would it not be possible to construct a PC based | database system then to Joe Walters: ! David/Moderator: upload the database itself here to be exchanged with | others? ga Joe Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: Rilla > ga Joe Walters: Could be, as long as it's in a form transportable. Another | approach... | might be to have a "team" involved; one "leader" to gather... | the raw data, and three or four users to customize it for... | the various platforms; an MS-DOS person to put it in... Joe Balsamo: Wouldn't be a problem to do something on the PC as well. | Like I say, the work part of it would be to come up with forms | that could | be filled in by people... Joe Walters: dBase form (or whatever is popular these days), a Mac | person... | to put in a Hypercard stack, and I'd be willing to serve to... | build a HyperStudio stack for Apple IIgs users. | (ga) David/Moderator: OK,, Joe B > ga Joe Walters: Too many Joes in here! :-) JoeB | yep... Joe Walters: Hehehe. All in favor of Joes ruling the universe.... Nahhh. Rilla/Sysop: !!!!!!!!!!! David/Moderator: no Rilla/Sysop: [At this point Joe Balsamo change is ID to JoeB to avoid confusion!} JoeB | Umm, I think the design of the report forms is the important | thing, that and getting people to know that this forum is | trying to do | a data gathering project GA Joe Walters: Need one more so we can win! Where's Joe Kohn when I need | him\?? | ! David/Moderator: Rilla > ga, Rilla/Sysop: hehehehe...finally... | | I was going to suggest.. | that you talk on the phone with Neil when he gets back.. | and let him know what it is that you want to do... | I'm sure that he will know the limits of what CIS and this | forum... | has to offer. He's also a good idea person. ga Joe Walters: Hmmm.... | What is this "talk on the phone" concept? Isn't that some sort | of... David/Moderator: Joe W > ga Joe Walters: low-speed voice comm method that uses equipment better | suited... | for modems and computers? Anyway, I could certainly discuss | it... | with Neil, but seriously the CIS databases are really | LIBraries... Rilla/Sysop: Joe Walters: and are not structured to handle what we normally think of | as... JoeB | ! Joe Walters: "databases" with the exceptions of special areas (like the | encyclopediae... | and so on). That would be a big pain to set up and maintain, | and users... | who have automated access programs (Nav, TAPCIS, etc) can't | really use... | those areas well. I think this would be better suited to having | someone... | gather the data (that's where a standardized form & getting the | word... | out comes in) and having users structure the data in an | organized... | form comfortable to the end user. Download the file, load into | your... | fave DB/Hypermedia program, and checkit out. GA! David/Moderator: JoeB > ga JoeB | David... Joe Walters: brb! JoeB | I was just going to suggest that Joe W's idea is pretty much | what I have in mind, that way people can just d/l the standard | form, | fill it in, and u/l it... Joe W | (back!) JoeB | We could then be responsible for putting it into a more useable | database offline, then upload THAT for usage by researchers. | Whattya think? GA Joe W | ! David/Moderator: I like it.....Joe W > ga Joe W | The two Joes are in perfect agreement! ... Rilla/Sysop: ! Joe W | Note that we can make use (probably) of What's New when we | start... | this up, and I'm sure that there will be continuing mention of | this... | project as appropriate both here and in ISSUES Forum, and | the... | UFO mags will probably give us some free publicity. We could... | become THE clearinghouse for this sort of info. Until we all... | mysteriously disappear, of course. :-) GA Rilla/Sysop: David/Moderator: Rilla > ga Rilla/Sysop: I was thinking that you could put... | an explanatory message on the board which we could put on | HOLD... | so that it doesnt scroll... | and then add to the News Flash a pointer saying "go check | message #XXX"... | about UFO survey... | I think that you could EASILY become THE clearinghouse with | just a bit... | of work...which you all are doing already. We'd be happy to | help... | the extra publicity doesnt hurt the forum . | ga Joe W | Ah, yes! The old (H)eld message trick! Rilla/Sysop: hehehehe Joe W | ! David/Moderator: And the commanders need something to do too!... ga Rilla/Sysop: David/Moderator: Joe W > ga Joe W | OK, well, I think we see what needs to be done on this type | of... | thing. We can "self-start" it by seeding the initial | database... | with known cases and reports (The Hills, Jimmy Carter, etc)... | just to prime the pump. We really need to build (I hate to... | use this word) a committee now to actually do it. I need a ... | better word than committee, as those never do anything... | Anyway,... | we need a team leader, a volunteer for each computer type... | of interest, and the leader may want to appoint a couple... | of helpers to assemble the data and get the forms together. | Oh, and Interested.... | Computer Types would be defined when someone pipes up... | and says, "I wish there was a database of this for the... | Atari Whatever," and we immediately appoint him/her as... | the coordinator for that system. :-) DONE! David/Moderator: OK.... Joe W | (I Nominate the UFO Section Leader for the position of Team | Leader.) | (hehehe) Rilla/Sysop: I second! David/Moderator: JoeW, thanks alot.. Joe W | Yer Welcome! David/Moderator: Ok, I would be willing to jump in, what the hey, I'm | section leader right? ga JoeB | ! David/Moderator: OK...just a sec... | JoeB > ga JoeB | I just wanted to say that this really has quite a potential to | start a systematic aproach to reporting, we may want to talk to | MUFON or CUFOS or all of them to get some ideas... | forms that they are undoubtedly using and just use them or a | variation of such, with the organizations permission, of course | GA Joe W | Good ideas! David/Moderator: Are we all genius's here or what? ga Joe W | Members of the New Age Forum Mutual Admiration Society., Rilla/Sysop: ! David/Moderator: Rilla > ga Rilla/Sysop: I have bad news David... | my buffer got bumped about a half an hour ago... | and I wasnt watching it cause the screen was blanked... | so I DONT have a transcript of this co...did you make one? I | hope!!! sigh David/Moderator: Don't worry, I think I recorded it all, at lease I hope | so! | Should we go informal now? Rilla/Sysop: good! JoeB | I have it to. Rilla/Sysop: yes! | JoeB | YAAAAAAAAAAAA Rilla/Sysop: Great job David!!!! | you did it! David/Moderator: Thank you Thank you, just send money please! Rilla/Sysop: Joe W | We all survived! David/Moderator: Specially me! JoeB | well done, good show indeed! Rilla/Sysop: What money, we already gave you a free account!! | hehehehehhehee David/Moderator: Not bad for 5 or 6 people? Rilla/Sysop: I think that you should make this a regular occurence. David/Moderator: I'd like to if its possbile, it has potential! Rilla/Sysop: Figure out how often you are comfortable with and go with | it. | Just dont schedule it the same time as the ISSUES co. | David/Moderator: I did that on purpose... ha ha ha Rilla/Sysop: And dont feel badly about the show... | not very many people show for the co itself... | but LOTS will download the transcript! David/Moderator: Yea, CIA, FBI, NSA Joe W | Hahaha! JoeB | more and more info being sent out, that's what is important in | this issue. Rilla/Sysop: hahahahahaha....they will have to add a new page to my file! David/Moderator: Anyhone interested, meet in room 2? Rilla/Sysop: Yes, I'll be there in a minute... | our Sunday co is scheduled for 9 and I need to check the board | first. David/Moderator: Its been a pleasure, thank you all for coming! JoeB | For a bit, then i gotta get some dinner! David/Moderator: Meet you in CO 2 THE END! (for now!) ********************************************** * THE U.F.O. BBS - http://www.ufobbs.com/ufo * **********************************************