SUBJECT: THE UFO CAMOUFLAGE THREAD                           FILE: UFO3165




   As I edited this file together I noticed that there was a lot
more to it than the discussion in the UFO Camouflage? thread. The
UFO Camouflage? thread had a beginning in another, earlier thread
(Gulf Breeze-New Angle? ) during a discussion about the black
helicopters question. It then ran through a short thread called
Tractors, which discussed  the Fyffe,Ala. flying semi-truck and an
article in the Dec. 90 OMNI that described an incounter with an
unusual farm tractor. At this time it became the UFO Camouflage?
thread. 
   The discussion runs a gamut of topics, from the technical
capabilities of the aliens and memory implants to Sitchen's view of
the solar system to Dorothy Isaac's photographs to the Twin Peaks
owls to the Hopi end of the world prophecies. I have included parts

of some of the other threads that have a connection to the
Camouflage thread, most notably the Problems with Abductions
thread. I have also left in the camera information near the end of
the Camouflage thread as I felt it would be interesting to those
camera buffs out there. What I edited out were a couple of short
messages about things that had nothing at all to do with the
discussions. If I could relate it in any way I left it in.
   As of Jan.11,1991 the UFO Camouflage thread was still running
strong. I don't know why one thread will run on and on while
another one dies an early death, only that a forum can not be
measured by any individual thread. Only be weaving the threads
together can one truly see the tapestry of the forum.
   Thanks to all who helped make these threads so good.I hope you
enjoy reading these messages as much as I enjoyed putting them
together.

                                   Terry Rodemerk
                                    Jan. 15,1991
                               




#: 73484 S10/Paranormal Issues
    14-Nov-90  12:13:48
Sb: #73399-#Gulf Breeze-New Angle?
Fm: John Hicks 76407,1264
To: John Horton 74030,2271 (X)

  Interesting. Seems to me I recently read about a large number of
black helicopter sightings in the West somewhere. What was odd is
that frequently the helicopters were other colors than black but
had no markings, were silent, and oddest of all, sometimes the
rotors didn't rotate in flight!
  As for Ed, he does seem to be an unlikely hoaxter, but he does
have a history of photographic practical jokes.
  We haven't been able to figure out a way someone could have been
giving him something to see. Weather conditions at times rule out
balloons, kites or R/C saucers.

                                               jbh


: 73785 S10/Paranormal Issues
    16-Nov-90  00:24:44
Sb: #73484-#Gulf Breeze-New Angle?
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: John Hicks 76407,1264 (X)


   John, your talking about black helicopters reminded me of
something that a fellow I work with told me about his trip to Ohio
last spring. He and his wife went to an air show at
Wright-Patterson that was for defense contractor representatives
(closed to the public). On display was a B-2 stealth bomber that
was roped off and under guard. As he was looking at it he
noticed another air craft parked next to it on the other side of
the display. When he walked around to look at this other craft he
said that he realized that it was a helicopter. He asked an officer
standing with the display what type of helicopter this was and was
told that it was a stealth helicopter. He told me that it was flat
black and seemed to be made of the same material that the bomber
was. It had some kind of sound baffles around the top rotors,over
the engines and down along the rear. That the top rotor did not
look like a normal set of blades and as far as he could tell there
was no rear rotor. He said that the craft had no markings and did
not look like any helicopter he had ever seen before.
   I've known this man for 12 years and he never had reason to make
up stories. He told me this story and now I tell it to you. Take it
for what it's worth.

?? TR ??



#: 73841 S10/Paranormal Issues
    16-Nov-90  12:13:23
Sb: #73785-#Gulf Breeze-New Angle?
Fm: John Hicks 76407,1264
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

  I've seen a wide assortment of 'black' aircraft at Patrick AFB in
Florida, from U-2s to OV-10s, so I really don't put much stock on
the color black. Most had very dark outline-markings that would be
invisible at any distance.
  I recall seeing something about a ducted-fan chopper (no tail
rotor) on tv a couple of years ago. Maybe on Nova. At any rate,
this chopper could just back up into a tree with the main rotor
sticking above the branches.
  So, anyway, we do have military choppers which appear to fulfill
the classic black helicopter description.
  I suspect the stealth chopper you saw was a mil. version of the
chopper I saw on tv. French made, I think. I doubt they're seen
very often by the public.
  Anyway, what I find really interesting is the incidents in which
an unknown phenomena seems to imitate a known object, such as a
helicopter. In the incidents in the West, some of the helicopters
were black, while some had colorful paint jobs. None of them
carried any sort of marking or numbers.
  What was really strange is that sometimes there was no sound
heard, and sometimes the rotors were stationary or absent!
  This is probably connected with the flying semi truck that
several witnesses saw at Fyffe a while back.
  So it appears that the ufo phenomena (or something) sometimes
imitates common objects, but either the imitation isn't quite
correct or the errors are intentional. Maybe the errors are
intentional in order to get us to pay attention.

                                               jbh



#: 73861 S10/Paranormal Issues
    16-Nov-90  15:49:14
Sb: #73785-Gulf Breeze-New Angle?
Fm: mike 70003,4667
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

You know, I suppose, that rear rotors (which provide a torque to
counteract rotation of the chopper body caused by conservation of
angular momentum, which shares the total between the fast-spinning,
low mass blades and the fuselage) are no longer necessary. A duct
carries air--either generated directly by the blade wash or by
another engine, I'm not sure--to a vectorable duct at the end
of the tail boom, and the reaction force counteracts the tendency
of the chopper to spin counter to the blades.

This cuts down on noise, gets rid of a dangerous moving part, and
adds to maneuverability.




#: 74235 S10/Paranormal Issues
    18-Nov-90  02:30:22
Sb: #73841-Gulf Breeze-New Angle?
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: John Hicks 76407,1264


   I didn't see the copter myself, it was a friend at work who seen
it and told me about it. I wish I had seen it though, sounds
interesting.
   The non-turning rotors might be an optical illusion caused by a
flashing running light on top. Kind of like a strobe light effect,
if seen at night, or the sun flashing off them if seen by day at a
distance.
   I have noticed that ability to appear like a common object also.
It seems to come up in many reports that the objects looked like
something other than what they were. That came out alot in
Intruders and Missing Time, though they don't try to hid there
appearence when they buzz military bases. Clear Intent showed
that well enough. I must admit that I know little about Fyffe and
the flying truck. That's a pretty strange thing to want to look
like even for this bunch ;)
   Now this brings up a question I have been thinking about since
I got back into this stuff a couple years ago. If the beings can
make us see what they want us to see, how do we know that the
abducties descriptions of the beings are right? Couldn't these
descriptions be only of what the abducties were allowed to see?

   BTW, of all the books and files I've read lately, Hopkins first
book Missing Time is the one that really gave me a cold chill down
my back. I don't know what it is but it is so much different than
the other books on the subject,so much more bizzare( Copper's files
not withstanding :) ). How did it strike you?

 ** TR **

#: 74236 S10/Paranormal Issues
    18-Nov-90  02:30:28
Sb: #73841-Gulf Breeze-New Angle?
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: John Hicks 76407,1264


   > Maybe the errors are intentional in order to get us to pay
attention.

  Interesting thought. Maybe they have already figured out that
humans don't pay attention to details so their not to worried that
anyone will notice that the Zayers store their ship is pretending
to look like went out of business last year <g>. Who knows, they
might make some money while their here :-)

 $$ TR $$

#: 74251 S10/Paranormal Issues
    18-Nov-90  05:21:21
Sb: #73841-Gulf Breeze-New Angle
Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165
To: John Hicks 76407,1264

RE: "...the UFO phenomena (or something) sometimes imitates common
objects, but either the imitation isn't quite correct or...":

  I'm sure Rex has told you, as he has told Anne and me, about
witnesses who have seen airborne semi-trailers that looked and
sounded perfectly normal, except that they were not attached to a
tractor or other visible means of locomotion - just trailers
trailing through the nearby sky behind nothing.

     Terry


#: 74237 S10/Paranormal Issues
    18-Nov-90  02:30:36
Sb: #73861-Gulf Breeze-New Angle?
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: mike 70003,4667


  You konw Mike,I spoke to some other people about this and a
couple of them said the same thing. Funnel some of the air from the
front rotor and some of the engine exhust out the back of the tail
for stability instead of a rear rotor. Eliminates a lot of
mechanical break-down points and a dangerous prop. Makes a lot of
sense and is probably a normal design advancement.

__TR__

#: 74252 S10/Paranormal Issues
    18-Nov-90  05:21:36
Sb: #73861-Gulf Breeze-New Angle?
Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165
To: mike 70003,4667

mike:

  Whatever you said there was probably right, but the way I learned
it as a student pilot, and later taught it as a flight instructor,
strikes me as easier to understand and therefore of more practical
use: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Since an airplane's propeller spins to the right (as seen by the
pilot sitting behind it), the airplane wants to spin to the left.
We compensate for that by designing and building enough excess lift
into the left wing that, at cruising speed, the excess lift of the
left wing causes enough right turn tendency to offset the left turn
tendency caused by the torque of the propeller. At less than
cruising speed, e.g., during takeoff and/or when climbing, we have
to supplement the left wing's extra lift with right rudder. At more
than normal cruising speed we have to offset the left wing's extra
lift with left rudder. In a helicoptor we accomplish the same end
with a tail rotor. It just makes life easier, not to mention
longer.:-)

     Terry



#: 74431 S10/Paranormal Issues
    18-Nov-90  23:23:05
Sb: #73861-Gulf Breeze-New Angle?
Fm:  John W. Dougherty 74017,3142
To: mike 70003,4667

There was a segment on the ducted fan helicopter on Beyond 2000
about a year ago.  The machine is impressive, highly manueverable,
and has a larger than normal tail boom.  Thrust from the main fan
is ducted through louvered ports in the boom to counter rotor
torque and manuever the machine.  The opening of the port louvers
is variable,  controlled by the pilot.

JD






#: 74530 S10/Paranormal Issues
    19-Nov-90  11:58:15
Sb: Stealth Helicopters
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 (X)

Terry, forgive my butting in, but the Stealth Helicopter is
fascinating.  Did.you ever learn more about it?   Mysterious black
"disappearing" helicopters seem to have been associated with all
the cattle mutilation phenomena, and I recall reading lots of local
reports of people saying they'd seen strange looking silent black
helicopters...they were very sincere, but not very much believed
because "there is no such thing."  But if there IS...wow!

               ==PN==

#: 74532 S10/Paranormal Issues
    19-Nov-90  12:16:50
Sb: #74235-Gulf Breeze-New Angle?
Fm: John Hicks 76407,1264
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

  > The non-turning rotors might be an optical illusion caused by 
  > a flashing running light on top. Kind of like a strobe light  
  > effect, if seen at night, or the sun flashing off them if seen 
  > by day at a distance.

  Could be, although I believe these were generally close.

  > BTW, of all the books and files I've read lately, Hopkins first
  > book Missing Time is the one that really gave me a cold chill 
  > down my back.

  Yeah, that book was rather interesting.

  > flying truck. That's a pretty strange thing to want to look
like
  > even for this bunch ;)
  That was a message to a certain person, so I've been told, and
the content has been confirmed. Unfortunately, I can't reveal my
source
without his approval.

                                               jbh








#: 74533 S10/Paranormal Issues
    19-Nov-90  12:16:55
Sb: #74251-Gulf Breeze-New Angle?
Fm: John Hicks 76407,1264
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 (X)

> have seen airborne semi-trailers that looked and sounded
perfectly normal,

  I've been told by a man named Phil (I think you know who) that
the flying trailer was a message to a TV journalist who had
childhood
dreams of a flying semi *tractor*.
  I have no reason to doubt that since the info could potentially
be confirmed or denied.

                                               jbh




#: 74558 S10/Paranormal Issues
    19-Nov-90  16:24:29
Sb: #74237-Gulf Breeze-New Angle?
Fm: mike 70003,4667
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

Exactly how it's done.

#: 74566 S10/Paranormal Issues
    19-Nov-90  16:35:51
Sb: #74252-#Gulf Breeze-New Angle?
Fm: mike 70003,4667
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 (X)

Right. And in addition to the design economy afforded by the switch
from tail rotor countertorque in the chopper to vectorable ducted
boom,
I think the
boom has a slight airfoil cross-section that the wash lifts in the
direction counter to the chopper's spin tendency.


#: 74567 S10/Paranormal Issues
    19-Nov-90  16:41:03
Sb: #74566-Gulf Breeze-New Angle?
Fm: mike 70003,4667
To: mike 70003,4667 (X)

But maybe not. I'll sue for patent on that idea if someone uses it.
:-)

#: 74747 S10/Paranormal Issues
    20-Nov-90  10:28:24
Sb: #73785-Gulf Breeze-New Angle?
Fm: Steve Mechels 71021,3217
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

This was probably a mock up of the new LHX (Light Helicopter -
Experimental) that is being developed for the Army.  I have seen
photo's
of it and it is just as you describe.  It is being developed by
Boeing.









#: 75386 S10/Paranormal Issues
    23-Nov-90  09:33:34
Sb: #74235-Gulf Breeze-New Angle?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

TR-re your comment about "Them" being able to appear as common
objects and the question of how valid our descriptions of them are
if
indeed they're only letting us see what they want us to see, the
Dec.
OMNI magazine has one item about a UFO masquerading (?) as a
tractor. 
If you get a chance to see the item, I'd like to know what you
think of
it.
               ==PN==

#: 75387 S10/Paranormal Issues
    23-Nov-90  09:33:47
Sb: #74251-Gulf Breeze-New Angle?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165

Terry, In your Nov 18 message to John Hicks, you said (to
paraphrase) many witnesses had reported airborne semi-trailers that
looked and sounded perfectly normal except for the fact that they
were
in the sky and not attached to any visible device that would
account for
their movement (assuming anything *could.*) This is a new one on
me. 
I've never heard about the semis in the sky. Can you suggest a
source
where I can learn more about this very odd phenom? Thanks.
       ==Peggy==


#: 74955 S10/Paranormal Issues
    21-Nov-90  11:29:41
Sb: #74790-Gulf Breeze Saga
Fm: John Hicks 76407,1264
To: Bruce Walter 76056,1452 (X)

  None I can think of right off in Florida, but I do believe many
of the Alabama sightings could be a triangular or wing-shaped
object.

                                               jbh


#: 75537 S10/Paranormal Issues
    24-Nov-90  01:32:42
Sb: #75386-Gulf Breeze-New Angle?
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140


 Peggy, I will get a copy of Dec. OMNI this weekend and read the
article. This business about things not looking like what they
really
are seems to be a new (last 10 yrs. or so) twist to the stories.
Why
would they want to do this when they can already make people forget
what
happened to them anyway? Appears to me to be two separate attemps
to
confuse the witnesses.
  Speaking of Dyslexia, I must have transposed letters in ever word
of this message the first time I spelled each word :)

  -- TR --

#: 75539 S10/Paranormal Issues
    24-Nov-90  01:32:56
Sb: #74533-#Gulf Breeze-New Angle?
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: John Hicks 76407,1264 (X)


   > ... the flying tractor was a message ...

 John, is this tractor message the same tractor as in the OMNI
stroy that Peggy N. asked me to read? I haven't read the story yet
but
thought this was quite the coincidence that you mention a tractor
in
your message of the 19th (which I am just getting to answer <g> )
and
Peggy's message to me about a story of a tractor in OMNI.

 __ TR __



#: 75583 S10/Paranormal Issues
   24-Nov-90  11:19:11
Sb: #75539-Gulf Breeze-New Angle?
Fm: John Hicks 76407,1264
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

>  John, is this tractor message the same tractor as in the OMNI
>  stroy that
  It probably is. I've only heard of one flying semi incident, and
that was at Fyffe.

                                               jbh




#: 75641 S10/Paranormal Issues
    24-Nov-90  16:13:22
Sb: #75387-Gulf Breeze-New Angle?
Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140

Peggy:

  The only specific incident I'm aware of the one John mentionee:
Pfyfe, Alabama. I got the impression from Rex Salisberry that there
are
other, similar cases. If you like I'll Email you Rex and Carol's
phone
number.

     Terry







#: 77007 S10/Paranormal Issues
    30-Nov-90  08:28:33
Sb: #UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

That's what I wondered too, about the "UFOs" not looking like what
they are...if they can erase people's memories and build in all
that
blockage that hypnotists work so hard to beat, why then would they
bother with camouflage? Too many reports say things like "yep, they
landed right there in that New York City park, climbed out, took
some
little spoon like things and scooped up some earth, climbed back in
and
flew away" which is obviously NO attempt at concealment...so why
try to
look like a semi or a tractor?

(And about the dyslexia--a thing worth doing is worth doing
weel...wwel...wlel... :-) ) ==PN==


#: 77013 S10/Paranormal Issues
    30-Nov-90  09:40:37
Sb: #77007-#UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Russ Ranshaw (CIS) 70000,1010
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140 (X)

Peggy,

Maybe the "camouflage" is an artifact of their other mental
manipulations? In other words, say a witness sees a UFO, and the
UFO
beams an energy burst which erases the actual memory of seeing the
UFO,
but the events _surrounding_ that memory are left intact.  Now
there is
a gap in the witness' memory, which is "filled in" in order to
produce
a continuous memory stream.  This is the sort of thing which
happens
when we dream. Some stream of thoughts occur in our sleep which our
conscious mind translates into a series of "remembered" images,
emotions, etc.

-Russ



#: 77029 S10/Paranormal Issues
    30-Nov-90  10:55:58
Sb: #77013-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Russ Ranshaw (CIS) 70000,1010

Russ, What an interesting idea!  Good thinking. It sounds very
logical
to me and very credible.

I wonder if there's any way to (1) establish that there is a
vacancy in
that section of memory or (2) unravel the thread of "filler" that's
been
left in the vacancy's place...i.e., backtrack to discover whether
the
filler was indeed a memory or just a mask or fill-in-the-blank
image
such as you suggested.
The concept of false memory is a fascinating one.  When I spoke to
a researcher in Texas recently about deja vu, he described an
center in
the brain which "overlays" a sense of familiarity onto a totally
new
event--that is, something happens which has never happened to you
before
but at that moment it occurs, this familiarity center fires too and
makes this new event feel and seem like a true memory.  One way to
test
it, he said, was to interrupt the event...For instance, if you're
having
a conversation with someone and he says to you, "I know exactly
what
you're going to say because this all happened before in exactly
this
way," (and he sincerely believes that is true), you could interrupt
the
process by answering, "All right, if you do know what I'm going to
say,
write it down here on this paper."  He'll gladly take the paper and
move to write, but then he'll find there is no actual memory at all
and he'll be puzzled...why can't he remember now when just a second
ago
he could? Because it's only the overlay triggered by the
familiarity
center, not a truly familiar event.  On the other hand, this same
researcher also said precognition and deja vu really do exist and
there
are ways to verify.

Maybe this alien erasure of memory or the mask memory or the filled
in gap you suggest is related to something like the incorrectly
perceived deja vu the researcher spoke of?
               ==PN==


#: 77317 S10/Paranormal Issues
    01-Dec-90  23:07:15
Sb: #77029-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Russ Ranshaw (CIS) 70000,1010
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140

Peggy,

Hmmm.  The "familiarity center" sounds interesting.  Some how, I
just _knew_ you were going to mention it!  :)

I haven't had a deja vu recently.  Well, some mild ones, mostly in
shopping malls or other crowded places.  That could be becuse those
places usually find me in a "ho hum" state of mind.

I used to have frequent deja vu experiences in my younger days. 
When I was in college, they happened a lot.  On in particular
happened
in an English Composition class.  I suddenly "knew" that the
instuctor
was going to get mad over something (not at all unusual) and slam
her
book down on the lecturn (very unusual).  I felt so strongly about
it
that I wrote in in downmy notes.  Sure enough, about a minute later
she
slammed her book down and yelled at someone about not being
attentive to
her words of wisdom. No, it wasn't me she yelled at!  :) So I guess
this
was a "true" deja vu, maybe?

Huh.  I wonder if the "familiarity center" could work backwords
sometimes. That is, in a truly familiar situation, it fails to be
triggered an you feel "out of phase" or something.  I get that
sometimes.

Regarding the recovery of "zapped" memory segments, I think that is
possible, perhaps via hypnosis.  I just happened to think that
perhaps
the "flying tractor" memory may not be the result of an erased
memory,
rather a dulled one. Who knows?  At least it's fun to discuss!  :)

-Russ


#: 77651 S10/Paranormal Issues
    03-Dec-90  02:07:32
Sb: #77029-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140

    Peggy, I think that Russ is on to a good line of thought here
too. I can't find my old psychology 101 book, but I do remember
something about screen memories being mentioned. If I got this
right
they are memories that the mind creates to cover or replace other
memories that a person is unable to handle or come to grips with.
This
usually happens to a person who has had a trumatic <sp?> experience
of
some kind or another. I think abduction qualifies as a trumatic
experience.
    I've been following the UFO story since the early 60's and of
all the wierdness this camouflage business has always struck me as
a
different kind of wierdness. It's never seemed to fit with the rest
of
the stuff. To me it would be like rowing a boat from the US to
Europe
and then putting on a cow costume and going around Europe
pretending to
be a cow. WHY? If you've just spent a whole lot of time and energy
rowing across the Atlantic why pretent your a cow! But now that I
am
thinking about screen memory again it makes more sense that the
camouflage is something the victims (for want of a better word)
have created themselfs after the fact.

 [More]

#: 77652 S10/Paranormal Issues
    03-Dec-90  02:07:41
Sb: #77029-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140

 [Continued]
    Now before everybody jumps on me let me say that this does not
account for all the camouflage reports. I'm not saying it is not
happening,just that a lot of it would be a waste of time to begin
with.
The flying semi in Fyffe was probably created as reported. John
Hicks
said earlier that it was a message for someone.
    I read the article about the Tractor in OMNI (good issue) and
that sounds like a screen memory. Those folks seen something they
DID
NOT WANT to see. What they wanted to see was just a plain old
tractor in
the field and that is what they remember. Hopkins should look into
this
one. What did you think about this Peggy?
    I believe that a couple of the books ( I don't know which
offhand) talk about screen memories also. If anyone else know about
screen memory I would like to hear from them. My memory (screen or
otherwise :-) ) is rusty about it.

  -- TR --

#: 77830 S10/Paranormal Issues
    03-Dec-90  21:54:39
Sb: #77317-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Heather Kuhn 76314,572
To: Russ Ranshaw (CIS) 70000,1010 (X)

RE: Deja vu in malls

Isn't it awfully hard to tell one mall from another? Confusing an
unfamiliar mall with a familiar wouldn't be that difficult I'd
think.

RE: The English Comp Class

I think that qualifies as a precog rather than deja vu. You knew it
was going happen before it did. Deja vu is thinking you recognize
something you've never perceived before.

RE: Not recognizing something familiar

Yes, it does happen. The phenomenon is called, appropriately
enough, "jamais vu."

RE: Hypnosis

It can help you recover lost memories, but it can also cause you to
fabricate new ones that seem genuine, a process called
"confabulation."
People under hypnosis believe the memories are real, but careful
checking may show that they aren't.


#: 77655 S10/Paranormal Issues
    03-Dec-90  02:08:01
Sb: #Tractors
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: John Hicks 76407,1264 (X)


  Hi John, when is the last time you heard so much talk about
tractors outside of a John Deer dealer and now we have two
different
tractor stories at the same time. One semi type, one farm type.
  Sounds pretty spooky to me ;) .

 -- TR --


#: 77714 S10/Paranormal Issues
    03-Dec-90  11:17:17
Sb: #77655-Tractors
Fm: John Hicks 76407,1264
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

  Aren't you meaning the farm tractor as a screen memory? I think
the semi trailer (the tractor was in a childhood dream of the
important
witness) was, I think, actually seen rather than being a screen
memory.

                                               jbh


#: 78128 S10/Paranormal Issues
    05-Dec-90  01:28:43
Sb: #77714-Tractors
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: John Hicks 76407,1264 (X)


  Yes, that is what I meant. The farm tractor described in the OMNI
article I felt was a screen memory to cover whatever it was that
frightened the witnesses. The semi tractor trailer seemed to be a
projection of some sort meant to be seen by the witness. I just
thought
it odd that within a few days the board talked about two different
events where the witnesses used the word tractor to describe what
they
seen, real or imaginary. I shouldn't have said John Deer in
reference to
the tractors. Sometimes what sounds right doesn't translate well to
the
written word.
  Sorry for the confusion :-)

  __ TR __


#: 78581 S10/Paranormal Issues
    07-Dec-90  09:44:02
Sb: #77317-#UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Russ Ranshaw (CIS) 70000,1010 (X)

Russ, What interesting points you raised!

If there's really a familiarity center to overlay the "it's
happened
before" feeling atop a new experience, it seems logical that there
should also be the opposite which you proposed.  How else to
account for
the common but inexplicable sense of "out of phase" you noted.
--And
here I thought I was the only one off kilter! :)

I still don't know what to think about deja vu.  Experiences like
the one you described with the irate teacher can't be explained by
a
false sense of the familiar, but have to be accounted for by some
other-than-normal (at least normally recognized, not necessarily
abnormal in the sense of what is natural and what is not)
explanation. 
Maybe it's a glimpse into the future that some people are fortunate
enough to perceive.  Or maybe the ever-time idea is valid and
certain
events have strong enough "waves" in the flow of time that
sensitive
people can feel the ripples before they come to that point in
actual
time.  Or maybe we're all on an endless, repeating loop, doing the
same life sentences over and over again, but sometimes we remember
what's happened before...  Endless speculations, I guess.

I think I'd rather have deja vu/precognitive "memories" than flying
tractor images!
               ==PN==



#: 78607 S10/Paranormal Issues
    07-Dec-90  10:41:34
Sb: #78581-#UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Russ Ranshaw (CIS) 70000,1010
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140 (X)

Peggy,

I always remind myself of the "more things in heaven and earth"
quote from The Bard.  My father used to say that if we knew
everything
we don't know, and didn't know anything we do know, we'd know more
than
we do.  Probably true.

There are metaphysical schools of thought which state that there is
no time. Or, rather, that what we perceive as "time" is an illusion
which is cast upon what we perceive as the physical universe.  That
is,
in our three dimensional universe time is a necessary element for
its
comprehension. The Edgar Cayce readings atate that the three
dimensions
are time, space, and patience.  Time is a measure of our
understanding
of an idea; space is a measure of our understanding of the
relationship
between ideas; patients is a measure of our acceptance of
responsibility
for our past actions.

The Seth material indicates that there is only the Now, that what
we
believe to be "Past, Present, and Future" are all happening
simultaneously. If one considers time to be a dimension, then by
moving
orthogonally to the time axis one can perceive the entire infinity
of
time at once, just as moving above a flat surface opens its entire
expanse for observation.  As a crude illustration of this concept,
consider a boat moving down a river.  Ahead of the boat the river
curves
around a high hill, or mountain.  We can think of the river as the
flow
of time.  From the boat, we can only perceive what is around us.
But if
we got into a balloon and floated up high enough, we could not only
see
the boat's current position, but look ahead and notice the water
fall on
the other side of the mountain, which is in the boat's "future."

-Russ





#: 78613 S10/Paranormal Issues
    07-Dec-90  11:44:37
Sb: #78607-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: mike 70003,4667
To: Russ Ranshaw (CIS) 70000,1010

In case you're interested, we're having a heated peripheral
discussion
of time in one of the many Twin Peaks threads in section 1 of the
DTPFORUM. I've been invoking Eliot, Augustine, Einstein, and
Feynman. A
fun thread. Started when I started arguing against sequentiality
and our
assumption that time is a river, or a tape, or a continuum
(Newton's old
gizmo that "flows equably onward, w/o regard to anything
external"), or
even a =thing= for that matter, since our basic question, What is
Time,
is a consequence of the noun-verb form in English, the
existence/identity linking verb from Indo-European, and so on.
You're free to drag in the Whorff-Sapir hypothesis if you want....
Science has given us relativity of simultaneity (spacelike and
timelike events); philosophy has given us headaches and turned the
problem over to science (which many mistakenly believe has
supplanted
philosophy), and the poet.W.S. Merwin, whose idea of time is not
rigorously stated but very peculiar, gave me a start at one of his
rare
readings in the 48 states when, in response to my question, "So
what do
you think about time and what other people believe about time," he
answered that it confuses him and that there are many more
assumptions
about time at large in our culture than we're willing to admit,
most of
them without any justifying evidence.



#: 78585 S10/Paranormal Issues
    07-Dec-90  09:45:23
Sb: #77651-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

Terry, Yes, I think you've got some good points about the screen
memories, the flying semis and the Omni tractor.  About the books
that
spoke of screen memories, I am still puzzled by Whitley Strieber's
screen "owl" memories. He gave the explanation (as I recall it)
that it
must be that the mind or the mind-doctors (depending on whether you
think your own head created the screen memory or the aliens did)
selecting something harmless and normal to cover the scary memory,
and
in case any of the real memory might leak through the screen
memory,
they've selected an image that's similar to what was actually seen. 
In
his case, the owls had big and haunting eyes, like the aliens had. 
When he talked about driving in his car and seeing the mysterious
huge
owls in other vehicles going down the highway, it struck me as very
weird.  Very.

If he was seeing "them," as he suggested (screen memory covers the
aliens which are too scary to remember), why would they be driving
in a
car where he was?  And if he was seeing owls, why would there be
enormous owls in a car either?  Makes a person think he had one too
many
stressful encounters before he got behind the wheel that day.

What you say about the folks in OMNI who remembered the tractor
seems
logical to me.  There's too much tension in the way they describe
the
event for it to be wholly imaginary, so it must be a screen for
whatever
really happened. Makes sense that they'd fill in the blank with a
nice
safe memory of a tractor which is a whole lot easier to cope with
than
UFOs in the field.

Doesn't make sense, though, that the aliens themselves would create
the elaborate camouflages...as you said, why pretend you're a cow? 
Of
course, it could be *our* error that makes us expect better from
them
(if
there is a them)--we think that if they can invent whatever travel
method they have, which is beyond our abilities, then they must
also be
able to do everything else better too.

 [More]

#: 78586 S10/Paranormal Issues
    07-Dec-90  09:45:51
Sb: #77651-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

 [Continued]
But why couldn't they be gifted at one thing and klutzy at another?

We, for instance, can build vehicles to get ourselves and our junk
into
space but we cannot figure out how to neutralize our nuclear or
ordinary
waste without soiling our nest.  Mucho dumb, no?  If, as some
propose,
the aliens are either the future us or the guys who genetically
engineered and thus semi-fathered us, then we ought to be similar
not
only physically but also cognitively.  So maybe they could be as
dumb in
some areas as we are.

Or, if you take the side some UFO books propose--that the aliens
are technologically superior but totally baffled by our perceptions
and
emotions, then maybe they just don't understand our mechanisms well
enough to devise a *good* camouflage.  You've seen those articles
where
children tell "how to cook a turkey for thanksgiving" and they come
up
with recipes like "first get a turkey and then gooosh up some bread
and
about a pound of salt and some cranberries and bake one minute and
it's
done."  They've got the roughest general idea of the concept, but
their
ability to perceive details is so limited that they cannot "make
up" a
recipe that's plausible to someone who knows how it's really done. 
Maybe the aliens (if any) are like that--they only see the
superficial
and because they don't really understand, they don't know how
ludicrous
some of the screens they construct must be.  Instead of inputting
a
screen that'll defuse the tension of an encounter memory, they
input a screen that's so off kilter that it calls attention to
itself.

I like your analogy of going around Europe pretending to be a cow!

And, yes, I'd like to see Budd Hopkins go into this too.  There was
a
clipping in UFONS (Nov issue) about Hopkins (from the Standard,
London,
July 18) in which he says he's documented more than 300 individual
cases
of aliens stealing human babies and "disappeared" pregnancies.  Now
that's spooky! Three *hundred* cases! ==PN==

#: 78589 S10/Paranormal Issues
    07-Dec-90  09:46:22
Sb: #77830-#UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Heather Kuhn 76314,572 (X)
Heather, I saw your reply to Russ about the deja vu events and
wondered
if you'd missed the earlier messages about the San Antonio, Texas,
researcher who said that there were four explanations for deja vu
as
most people recognize it--false memory, actual deja vu (it really
did
happen before), precognition, and paranormal (things like you're
tapping
into a past life recollection or ghost,etc.)  So your idea on his
English class experience being precognitive fits in perfectly with
the
researcher's explanations. Confabulation was also included, though
I
don't think we talked much about it here.

How did you come to know about jamais vu?  Is there a source book
you'd recommend?

Thanks.
               ==Peggy Noonan==


#: 78765 S10/Paranormal Issues
    08-Dec-90  02:04:22
Sb: #78589-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Heather Kuhn 76314,572
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140 (X)

I saw a reference to "jamais vu" in an issue of the Skeptical
Inquirer,
but finding the reference is a bit tricky as I have a stack of
issues
to hunt through. Before you ask, I am less convinced than a lot of
the
CSICOP people that paranormal experiences ALL have mundane
explanations.
I've have a few weird things happen to me, mostly involving Tarot
cards,
so I'm inclined to be open minded. If I do locate the article, I'll
post
the sources it used.

I don't normally think of pre-cog as being a deja vu experience,
but if
it's included in a researcher's definition, I guess I'll have to
get
used to the idea. I may have missed the msgs or skimmed through
them
quickly because I don't remember that item.


#: 78591 S10/Paranormal Issues
    07-Dec-90  09:46:37
Sb: #78128-#Tractors
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

Interesting, though, that you did say *John Deer* -- remember the
story
in the books about Betty Andreaason Lucas and the sightings she
had/encounters with aliens, one of which involved a deer in the
woods?
So we've got a tractor-semi, tractor-farm, John Deere manufacturer
and
dear -antlers variety- in the woods...  the connectedness of
things--random curiosities? or think-links?

==PN==



#: 78614 S10/Paranormal Issues
    07-Dec-90  11:44:42
Sb: #78591-Tractors
Fm: mike 70003,4667
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140 (X)
You left out the deer in Russ's story and the mysterious deer head
on
the table in Twin Peaks early last season, a series which has taken
a
decidedly strange turn into the paranormal, OBEs, NDEs, multiple
bodies,
screen memories, nonsequential time, and other odd stuff.





#: 79173 S10/Paranormal Issues
    10-Dec-90  11:35:27
Sb: #78947-#Mental Interpretation
Fm: John Hicks 76407,1264
To: CosmicThAng/SanBernardCA 73200,3613 (X)

  Something you said about genetic memories triggered a thought.
  What about the idea that abductions are really occuring, but not
for
the usual supposed reasons. Could be that the abductors are showing
us
our (human) origins?
  Something to think about.........

                                               jbh



#: 78948 S10/Paranormal Issues
    09-Dec-90  04:43:22
Sb: #78581-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: CosmicThAng/SanBernardCA 73200,3613
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140 (X)

Maybe the individual human mind creates the image of expectation,
and it
is subconsciously and psychically related to the subject (the
teacher
slamming the book down after precognitive image of same action)

#: 79075 S10/Paranormal Issues
    10-Dec-90  00:13:05
Sb: #78585-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Jim Shaffer, Jr. 72750,2335
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140 (X)

Waitaminit.  OWLS?  As in "Twin Peaks"?  Gee, if the writers of
that
show are taking things from Whitley Strieber, it could get even
weirder
than I imagined!
As a matter of fact it might anyway.  This week it looks like one
of the
characters is about to get picked up by aliens.  He previously had
told
Dale Cooper that he worked for the government in a top-secret
position,
and that he was responsible for tracking messages from space.  And
he
was about to tell Cooper about something called the "White Lodge." 
Made
me dig out the Krill file and double-check my memory.

Yikes!

<grin>
--Jim

#: 79153 S10/Paranormal Issues
    10-Dec-90  10:06:55
Sb: #78765-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Russ Ranshaw (CIS) 70000,1010
To: Heather Kuhn 76314,572 (X)

Heather,

The Edgar Cayce readings say that nothing happens in our lives that
is
not first shown in our dreams.  This could provide a
possibleexplanation
for some deja vu experiences, where one's conscious awareness
merges
with the subconscious memory of that dream.

Oh, the readings also say that nearly all dreams are presented in
symbolic form, so the merging of the conscious/subconscious would
be on
a deeper level than actual events/objects/etc.  Jung would probably
say
that such spontaneous associations were at the universal symbol
level.

-Russ



#: 79583 S10/Paranormal Issues
    11-Dec-90  23:32:08
Sb: #78607-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Russ Ranshaw (CIS) 70000,1010

Russ, Your fascinating message about the coexisting times was very
thought-provoking.  Now I'm going to have to go back and read Cayce
again to see what I missed by skimming before.  I haven't read the
Seth
material yet, but it sounds like a lot of the sci-fi I used to
devour
covered basically the same idea.  Remember those stories of the
ever-continuing time traveller who keeps meeting himself at every
stage
of his journey? Boggling. Your boat down the river analogy was
excellent--very good way to visualize the concept.

               ==PN==

 PS--Don't miss Unsolved Mysteries this Wednesday on NBC--sounds
like a
good one.



#: 79727 S10/Paranormal Issues
    12-Dec-90  09:22:33
Sb: #79583-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Russ Ranshaw (CIS) 70000,1010
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140

Peggy,

You have to dig pretty deep into Cayce's readings to get to it. You
might try contacting the A.R.E. and getting some books by Everet
Irion. 
One of his books is called (I think) "Vibrations" and deals with
the
time, space, patience concept.  Everet was treasurer for eons, and
worked closely with the readings for many years.  They also have a
complete cross-reference index to the readings, and you can ask the
library to check for specific subjects for you. Edgar gave over
15,000
readings, averaging ten pages or so, making a lot of material to
sort
through!

-Russ




#: 80333 S10/Paranormal Issues
    14-Dec-90  13:09:03
Sb: #79583-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Sue Forslev 72320,71
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140

Peggy -

I saw unsolved mysteries Wednesday.  I wasn't impressed with the
UFO's.
When Dorothy Isaacs photographs something in front of a camera crew
that
no one else can see... sounds very suspicious to me.

Sue

#: 80373 S10/Paranormal Issues
    14-Dec-90  17:33:42
Sb: #79075-#UFO Camouflage?
Fm: CosmicThAng/SanBernardCA 73200,3613
To: Jim Shaffer, Jr. 72750,2335

Waitaminit waitaminit.  I only watched Twin Peaks once.  Does it
have an
alien sub-plot?????!!!  Tell me--I'll be a regular.  Seriously, is
it
lookin that way??



#: 80390 S10/Paranormal Issues
    14-Dec-90  18:40:09
Sb: #80373-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Michael Houdeshell 70003,4667
To: CosmicThAng/SanBernardCA 73200,3613

Yes.




#: 80375 S10/Paranormal Issues
    14-Dec-90  17:33:56
Sb: Tractors
Fm: CosmicThAng/SanBernardCA 73200,3613
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140

One of my "recalled" abductions, with STRONG, very bizarre normal,
conscious memories (& multiple witnesses) surrounding it, involved
two
deers in the woods.  It was hunting season.  Hiked all day from
dawn to
dusk. Never saw a deer.  Heard gunshots.  At dusk, barely got out
before
dark (got dark quicker than expected!!!).

I said "well, congratulations deers, you've made it through another
day alive!" The very SPLIT!! second the "ve" in alive came out of
my
mouth, two deer sprinted up the hill from a point roughly three
feet
from where me and my three friends were standing.  The bush wasn't
dense
and there was still some light, but we had not seen or heard a word
from
the deer until the "ve" in alive.  We were all speechless for
seconds.

Another potential, unregressed, abduction:  being with a friend and
seeing two deer walking at night through the very center of the
city of
Columbia, Missouri.  I mean the very center:  alleys and concrete
and
surrounded by freeways or four lane divided highways, and they were
casually browsing through town with no fear or concern--nor even
surprise at the artificial environment. 


#: 80494 S10/Paranormal Issues
    15-Dec-90  02:22:18
Sb: #80197-#problems with abductions
Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165
To: Steven Mizrach 73750,462 (X)

Steven:

RE: "Their captors displayed amazingly humanlike emotions of
surprise
and concern...":

  These are not, IMHO, "humanlike" but "animal-like" emotions.
Surely
you have seen dogs, cats and other animals display obvious surprise
and
concern, as well as the other emotions that we erroneously call
"human".

"... And, like all UFOnauts, did not appear to have any form of
life
support system, indicating that they had the extreme (good) fortune
to
enjoy the same atmosphere, climate, gravity, and conditions of life
that
we do.

"If the purpose of the aliens is to breed with our race, any
biologist
can tell them they are doomed to failure. Their offspring, like the
mule, will be sterile, unless their number of chromosomes is the
same as
ours (Aha!). If they are in fact unfamiliar with our culture, why
is it
that some of our cultural symbols, such as a winged serpent or two
interlocking circles (the vesica piscis) turns up on their craft as
insignias? Why are the 'screen memories' they utilize often symbols
of
great mythical importance, such as the owl or the bee?":
  Well, I don't know. But a fellow named Zecharia Sitchin has spent
more than thirty years seeking answers to those and such additional
related
[More]



#: 80495 S10/Paranormal Issues
    15-Dec-90  02:22:35
Sb: #80494-#problems with abductions
Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 (X)
[Continued]

questions as:

  1. Why do those credible persons who say they have been in or
seen
materials from within crashed UFOs say that their instruments are
labeled with what look like hieroglyphics?

  2. How did the ancient Sumerians appear suddenly, without any
prehistory, it the full bloom of an advanced civilization, aware of
the
nature, shape and size of our solar system and galaxy, with a
calendar
so accurate that it allowed for precession, and knowing not only -
as we
have only lately learned - that there are nine planets, but that in
fact
there is a tenth planet - called Niribu by the Sumerians and Marduk
by
the Babylonians - that we have yet to discover, and for which our
astronomers currently are searching feverishly in the vicinity of
Orion?

  3. Why did the Sumerians call Earth the "seventh planet"?  Of
course,
they were ancient = ignorant. We know that Earth is the *third*
planet
- counting outward from the Sun. But if one entered our solar
system
from outside, one would encounter first Pluto, second Neptune,
third
Uranus (all three known to the Sumerians), fourth Saturn, fifth
Jupiter,
sixth Mars, and *seventh*, Earth.

  But that, according to Sitchin, is only the order of the nine
currently known planets since the "creation of the heavens and the
Earth" by the

[More]


#: 80496 S10/Paranormal Issues
    15-Dec-90  02:22:54
Sb: #80495-#problems with abductions
Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 (X)

[Continued]

collision of the moons of the captured planet Niribu/Marduk with
the
planet Tiamet, which once orbited the Sun in what is now the
asteroid
belt. The collision sheared Tiamet in half. One half became what
are now
the asteroids and numerous comets. The other half, with Tiamet's
principle moon, which almost had attaind planethood itself, was
hurled
into a new orbit as our Earth, accompanied by its aborted-planet
Moon.

  According to Sitchin, the collision also seeded Earth (nee
Tiamet)
with life, i.e. spores of the life of Niribu/Marduk which, having
been
captured by our solar system, now orbits the Sun in a 12 degree
inclined, elliptical 3,600 Earth-year orbit. Meanwhile, life on
Earth
evolved more or less identically to life on Niribu/Marduk, with
local
environmental variations.

  I won't attempt to explain Sitchin's hypothesis within the length
limits of a forum message. It took him five books to ask and
explore
your and his questions and present his hypothesis based on
archeology
and language, and extensive analysis of ancient texts, notably the
Bible
and its precursors among the Sumerians, the Babylonians, the
Akkadians,
the Hittites, the Egyptians and the Hebrews - all of whom tell the
same
story with increasing condensation and editing.

  If you're that interested you can get an analysis of the
questions and
a clear presentation of Sitchin's hypothesis by reading only the
first
and last of his "Earth Chronicles" books: "The Twelfth Planet"
(actually
the

[More]


#: 80497 S10/Paranormal Issues
    15-Dec-90  02:23:06
Sb: #80496-#problems with abductions
Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 (X)

[Continued]

tenth planet, but the Sumerians called the Sun and the Moon
planets,
plus ten planets = twelve.) (1976), and *Genesis Revisited* (1990).
The
books between them (*Stairway to Heaven*, *The Lost Realms*, *The
Wars
between Gods and Men*) provide details and extensive scholarly
citations.

  It's only a hypothesis, of course, but it is very well and
persuasively done, and is based upon ancient literature and modern
scholarship with physical evidence offered only in support, rather
than
vice versa a la von Danikin and other nonscholars of the "ancient
astronaut" ilk. Furthermore, current events *appear* to be
confirming
his (and John Lear's, for that matter) predictions.

  If nothing else it's a damned good read.

     Terry




#: 80637 S10/Paranormal Issues
    15-Dec-90  19:46:07
Sb: #80497-problems with abductions
Fm: Steven Mizrach 73750,462
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 (X)

Terry:
    I have read Sitchin, and am familiar with his hypothesis. But
what
bothers me about the ancient astronaut hypothesis is as follows:
many
cultures have their legends of culture bearers from the stars,
whether
they be Oannes in Sumeria, the Nommoi of the Dogon tribe in Mali,
Quetzelcoatl in Mexico, or others. Unfortunately, in many of those
legends the culture bearers also came from the sea, by land from
the
North (a common motif), or from underground. If one really believes
civilization was delivered, on a silver platter, from friendly
folks
from outer space, it does humanity a grave injustice. I do believe
that
the encounter with UFOs is an ongoing relationship that has been
going on for years, but the Space Brother belief system needs to be
revised. Whatever UFOs are, they can kill, and have done so. And
they
continue to deliver their magnificent messages, leading humans
around by
the nose, telling us that we are their genetic product, and
meanwhile
playing absurd, stupid games with us. I take nothing the UFOnauts
tell
us at face value, especially when they insist that they were
responsible
for civilization in Egypt and Sumeria and elsewhere. The Great
Phonograph in the Sky has been sounding that tune for way too long.

#: 80498 S10/Paranormal Issues
    15-Dec-90  02:23:19
Sb: #80333-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165
To: Sue Forslev 72320,71

Sue:

  I saw (and taped) the UM segment, too, and Re: "When Dorothy
Isaacs
photographs something in front of a camera crew that no one else
can
see... sounds very suspicious to me.":

  I have to agree, but I also have to remember the startling
photograph
taken by Brenda Pollack in Gulf Breeze in front of several
witnesses.
None of them, including Brenda, saw anything except an anomolous
and
rather dim light in the mostly overcast sky. But when she developed
the
film, the resulting photograph looked remarkably like Dorothy
Isaacs's
bizarre photographs. Captured on film, the rather dim anomolous
light
became what looked like a multicolored, segmented worm trying to
twist
and shake itself off of a fishhook in the sky.

  Don't prove nothing, except that whatever was photographed wasn't
faked.

     Terry


#: 80811 S10/Paranormal Issues
    16-Dec-90  14:38:24
Sb: UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Jim Lierzer 74405,1103
To: Jim Shaffer, Jr. 72750,2335
Jim,
  Do you think it's mere coincidence that Lynch decided to name the
FBI
agent "Cooper?"  I think that Lynch is subliminally trying to tell
us
that Milton "Bill" Cooper is in reality a secret government agent
himself, sent to infiltrate the UFO community and divide it with
mounds
of blatently absurd misinformation. <g>.




#: 80515 S10/Paranormal Issues
    15-Dec-90  03:13:20
Sb: UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140


  Hi Peggy. I finally got a chance to read my message backlog. Sure
was
a lot of stuff there :) Hope you were able to download Treeto ok.
I was
downloading it the other night and got disconnected somewhere.
Still
don't have it. Will try again this weekend.

  You make many good points about the intelligence of the aliens.
A
person can be a college graduate and still be as dumb as a brick
when it
comes to common sense and street smarts. In all my reading these
critters demonstrate an advanced technology but not near as
advanced as
many give them credit for. I have always felt that they are only
about
300 years ahead of us technically. Think about how far we have come
in
100 years and where we'll be 300 years from now. Why shouldn't they
be
able to create an image that is correct in details after all the
time
they have been hanging around the Earth? Their computers should be
capable of this now.
  Could it be that their not as intelligent as they would like us
to
beleive? Most people can drive a car but how many can build or fix
one.
Why should flying a UFO be harder than driving a car. They can fly
them
but they can't build or fix them. Which brings me to another
question,
why do some people think that UFO's can't come in more than one or
two
shapes or styles? Look in any parking lot or car lot and tell me
how
many different shapes,styles and colors of vehicles you see. We
can't be
the only planet with design engineers.
 [More]

#: 80516 S10/Paranormal Issues
    15-Dec-90  03:13:32
Sb: #UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
 [Continued]
  You mentioned the alien baby stealing ring. As the story goes,
their
here to save their dying race by by genetically splicing human
genes
into their genes ( or something like that ). By human medical
knowlege
this is not possible. Cross breeding is another story. Alien/human
babies impregnated in human mothers for the first trimester then
removed
and returned to the aline ships to be brought up as aliens is an
excellent way to create human looking aliens for infiltration into
human
society.
  Bring the mother back about a year later and show her the now
growing child and tell her she needs to show them how to love. Get
the
mother to feel a special bond with the child and now there is at
least
one human who will protect this hybrid alien if the need should
ever
arise.

  Sorry, I'm being cynical tonight. It's just that I can't shake
the feeling that these visitors are on the whole misrepresenting
themself. I don't know if I have ever meet any of them personally,
but
I just don't trust them. The Indians probably said the same thing
about
the English :-)

  Later,
    Terry


#: 80580 S10/Paranormal Issues
    15-Dec-90  13:47:33
Sb: #80516-#UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

Terry:

  According to a doctor who allegedly participated in the autopsies
of
the alien bodies from the Roswell crash, the "greys" are
vegetables.

  According to Zecharia Sitchin (*Genesis Revisited*), our most
ancient
religious texts tell us that the Nefelim, i.e. astronauts from the
planet Marduk, created man "in their own image" by splicing their
genes
wih those of an apewoman in southern Africa, specifically to
develop an
intelligent work animal to mine gold for them (their reason for
being
here).
  It has been in the news recently that scientists are saying that
all
humankind traces its ancestry to a single female ancestor in
southern
Africa.

  Sitchin speculates that maybe the greys are android servants of
the Nefelim.

  Weigh that.

     Terry





#: 80630 S10/Paranormal Issues
    15-Dec-90  18:46:46
Sb: #80580-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Mort 72411,235
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 (X)

Terry, I weighed that -- though not invited to do so, I admit --
and
found that theory ethnocentric to say the least. [C But it's fun,
anyway!



#: 80673 S10/Paranormal Issues
    15-Dec-90  22:59:38
Sb: #problems with abductions
Fm: Steven Mizrach 73750,462
To: ALL

UFO Abductions Weirdness: A second level reading
  The marks left on the bodies of the abductees seem more akin to
the geometric ritual marks of the masons' and the witches'. The
'sexual'
encounters are taken right out of succubus and faery lore, down to
the
mists used as aphrodisiacs. The 'medical' procedures seem too
macabre,
almost akin to the ritual incisions and mutilations performed by
tribal
cultures on their medicine men to signify their 'dismemberment' and
'rebirth.' The changes of vocation of abductees are striking - they
almost always either are haunted by strange dreams, divorce their
wives,
lose their jobs, and are changed for the worse; or their Iq
skyrockets,
they develop new interests in the occult, and manifest new talents
and
abilities. There is more to the abduction experience than meets the
eye.
Strieber particularly points this out with the visitors, who, like
proper hierophants, not only showed him the present, but also made
him
aware of the reality of death and showed him the future.




#: 80765 S10/Paranormal Issues
    16-Dec-90  09:16:37
Sb: #80673-problems with abductions
Fm: Mort 72411,235
To: Steven Mizrach 73750,462 (X)

I think you have to come down to the "which came first, the chicken
or
the egg" question. Did "lore" come from UFOs or do present-day
"explanations" of civilization springing from UFOnauts derive from
human-generated legend? It seems to me that the UFONauts spring
from
legend, not the other way around. All "new" inventions and all
human
thought derive from what went before; when space travel even on our
present level became possible, then spacebeings became the "answer"
to
the mystery of the origins of intelligent life on earth. Are there
UFOs?
Sure. Are there beings on tghem? Possibly. Do we come from the
stars?
Maybe. Is it likely? Not if we talk about conscious implants. How
do I
"know" all this? I don't. But my guess is as good as anyone
else's.....


#: 80928 S10/Paranormal Issues
    17-Dec-90  02:42:39
Sb: #80580-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 (X)


  Hi Terry. That's quite the theory Sitchin has there. I have not
read
his books so I don't know more than what you told me,but it sounds
like
Sitchin's aliens should be about 100,000+ years ahead of us. The
beings
visiting us now don't seem to be that far advanced. You would think
that
in 100,000 years they would learn to be subtle :)
  It sounds like an interesting set of ideas. I'll look into his
books.
It's always good to hear a different viewpoint on this subject. I
get
tired of the Cooper/Lear school of thought. I can think of a number
of
reasons for them being here that have nothing to do with genetics,
either then or now.

 Terry


#: 81038 S10/Paranormal Issues
    17-Dec-90  15:57:25
Sb: #80497-problems with abductions
Fm: Michael Houdeshell 70003,4667
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 (X)

But Terry:

If there were ten planets, wouldn't the Earth be number 8, counting
inward?

And how would life on the captured planet, Marduk, have developed,
since
it evidently wandered into our solar system from elsewhere? I mean,
out
in interstellar space, how would the organic molecules develop, and
just
what are the chances for such a collision? Not to mention the
problem of
a wandering planet having a prolific ecosystem, which I'd imagine
is a
prerequisite of intelligent life--no point using that angle to get
to
the top of the food chain if there's no food chain.




#: 81230 S10/Paranormal Issues
    18-Dec-90  02:42:11
Sb: #problems with abductions
Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165

[Continued]

became the asteroids that inhabit the former orbit of Tiamet and
the
comets that cling to our Sun in their eliptical but measurable and
predictable orbits. One of Tiamet's - or some other planet's
-sattelites
- was thrown into its own new declinated orbit around the Sun and
became
the minor planet Pluto.

  The other half of Tiamet, accompanied by it almost-but-not-quite-
planet chief satelitte, was hurlned into a new and previously
unoccupied
orbit between Mars and Jupiter, and from that time onward would be
the
*seventh* planet encountered by a visitor approaching Earth from
outside
our solar system

  The rest of your question, regarding how life might have
developed in
interstellar space, is beyond my ability to comprehend, let alone
explain.



There are 2 Replies.

#: 81281 S10/Paranormal Issues
    18-Dec-90  10:39:02
Sb: #81230-problems with abductions
Fm: Russ Ranshaw (CIS) 70000,1010
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165

Terry,

That sounds a lot like what Velikovsky wrote.  I'll have to get
those books!
-Russ


#: 81301 S10/Paranormal Issues
    18-Dec-90  12:03:49
Sb: #81230-problems with abductions
Fm: Michael Houdeshell 70003,4667
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165

Hmmmm...this whole scenario smells of epicycles.






#: 81441 S10/Paranormal Issues
    19-Dec-90  00:47:46
Sb: #80333-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: CosmicThAng/SanBernardCA 73200,3613
To: Sue Forslev 72320,71 (X)
Bizarrely enough, that is not uncommon.  One of my *conventional*
conscious sightings was of a hovering low craft in the Louisana
bayou
directly over oncoming traffic.  Myself and my companion seemedc to
be
the *ONLY* people who saw it, though it was large and obvious and
hovering RIGHT over the road, and produced smoke, and was
**TOTALLY**
silent!!!!!

Of the abductees I have met, similar reports are not uncommon.


#: 81791 S10/Paranormal Issues
    20-Dec-90  14:23:03
Sb: #81440-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Michael Houdeshell 70003,4667
To: CosmicThAng/SanBernardCA 73200,3613 (X)

For a dark version, try J.G. Ballard--there's a story in one of the
anthologies of his work in which astronauts must endlessly go on a
voyage in which they die but return...over and over.





#: 81795 S10/Paranormal Issues
    20-Dec-90  14:53:31
Sb: UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: CosmicThAng/SanBernardC 73200,3613 (X)

Cos, Sorry to be so late replying to your Dec 9 message.  You've
got a
very good theory there about the anticipation of an event perhaps
having
a triggering effect.  That's something I've pondered about for some
while... sort of a which came first, the chicken or the egg, type
of
thought-line.
               ==PN==

#: 81895 S10/Paranormal Issues
    20-Dec-90  22:09:43
Sb: #80673-problems with abductions
Fm: CosmicThAng/SanBernardCA 73200,3613
To: Steven Mizrach 73750,462

The abductee marks I have seen are usually simple lines--hairlines,
actually. The "sexual" encounters are totally a-sexual and I've
never
heard of "mists used as aphrodisiacs" before.  The medical
procedures
are strange,but simply clinical--nothing very mystical about
sterile
clinicians.

As far as life changes by abductees.  SURE, I think that losing it
or
becoming stronger and wiser is a standard human reaction to any
stressful experience, particularly attitude-altering ones.  Don't
underestimate the power of the human animal to grow and change
independent of active, direct exterior intervention.


    23-Dec-90  11:48:33
Sb: UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Sue Forslev 72320,71

Sue, You're so right about the Unsolved Mysteries episode.  I
thought it
was going to be something "important" but if she's the only one who
could get those results--despite the man who says he saw the same
thing--then it's pretty hard to buy.  Not that it couldn't be true,
but
it raises a very arched skeptical eyebrow. In fact, all the $$$
she's
put into production of photos makes it look more like a super
marketing
gimmick than a serious investigation.  Some of the photos were
pretty
and the patterns they showed were interesting, but there was no
explanation of the method of production or why patterns were
amplified
in particular ways.  Squiggly light could be anything.  Pretty, but
not
necessarily any more significant than what I'd get by "oopsing" my
own camera.

               ==PN==

#: 82550 S10/Paranormal Issues
    23-Dec-90  11:49:04
Sb: UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

Terry, Wow!  What a lot of good thought went into this message!

I like the theories about intelligence of aliens...another good
parallel
is television--we all watch it, but how many of us understand how
it
works or how to fix it.  And, if we were to be required on the spur
of
the moment to produce a, say, hologram of a TV from our memory, the
stored data we've accumulated about the device after living
intimately
with it for zillions of hours, we could probably conjure up a
superficially nice looking set, but could we get the details right?
Would the back of the set be correct?  Or would there be fuzzy
grayed
out areas where our lack of attention to percieving and then
recreating
detail left gaps?

I once taught a class--not as a teacher but a guest--and asked
everyone
in the room to draw a common figure from memory, no skill or
artistic
talent required, the object was to see how well we look at things,
how
well we observe and recollect observation.  It was amazing how
varied
peoples' perceptions were.

Why couldn't the same be true for aliens.  I mean, gee, if we can't
even
recreate a common, everyday, much-used and well known object like
a TV,
why should they be better?  Maybe they're superb technicians but
lousy
artists??? 
Or maybe they can build great vehicles but their holography is
primitive?  The explanation for their faulty UFO camouflage could
be in
there somewhere...
Another thought occurs, though.  Suppose, for a blink of a thought
here,
that the guys driving these UFOs did *not* create them.  How could
they
get them? Well, they could've inherited a superior technology, sort
of
like the end of the Greek civilization, for instance, where the
best and
brightest were long gone but the relics and artifacts they created
remained to be used by the decadent vestiges of their culture (the
statue as a hat rack, maybe, if they wore hats...okay, as a wreath
of
laurel rack then).  Those people using the inherited goodies --

 [More]

#: 82551 S10/Paranormal Issues
    23-Dec-90  11:49:29
Sb: UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

 [Continued]
(continuing) Those people using the inherited goodies would be no
better
at the "works" of the stuff than we are at operating a cotton gin
or
loom or harvesting willow bark to create aspirin-like potions.

But maybe it's not the decadent vestiges.  Okay, where else could
they
get the ships they didn't invent?  How about conquest?  We have
enough
examples in human history of conquerors reaping the benefits of a
superior technology which happened not to be accompanied by
superior
warmaking skills.  That is, the guys who are the best inventors and
creators aren't necessarily the same guys who are the best warriors
and
if somebody rougher and tougher and meaner comes along and takes
your
high-tech gadgetry, he gets to use it.  But he doesn't have to know
how
to use it well.  Maybe he can only figure out the rudimentary
basics but
hasn't got the hang of how the "image creator" button works yet,
sort of
like junior watching Daddy drive and knowing about turn signals,
accelerators and brakes, but because it's an automatic
transmission, he
didn't get the idea about shifting so he can't be very versatile
yet.

And, yet another possible source of non-self-generated
tech...Honest
Klatu's Used UFO Lot.  Why not?  We market and sell stuff to more
primitive cultures. Why couldn't "They" be as good at merchandizing
as
they are at inventing?  And some clodulous culture with less
finesse
than the originators then buys the UFOs and just isn't quite good
enough
to use all the accessories that come with warp drive and
disappear-buttons.

Hmmm....
               ==PN==

#: 82552 S10/Paranormal Issues
    23-Dec-90  11:49:57
Sb: UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

Terry,
Interesting thoughts about the alien baby-stealing ring, too...

I think a healthy distrust is the only sane policy here.  *If* they
exist and *if* they are engaged in hybridization with humans, there
would be no logical reason to assume that their motives would be
anything we could comprehend or would approve.  *Maybe* they're
just a
bunch of swell fellas who happen to look a little different than we
do
and who are just out to save the vestiges of a once great but now
dying
race.  On the other hand, maybe they're a bunch of parasites using
nice
protective camouflage (the appearance of good intentions or the
implanting of the impression of good intention in the minds of some
human victims) to accomplish their goal which is *not* something
we'd
consider nice.  Most victims of parasites don't like their little
bugs. 
Symbiosis, now, is another kettle of fish. If the mutual benefit
was a
good thing for both species, then a little discomfort along the way
would be tolerable.

But the kicker is there is no way to find out whether they're
parasites
or symbiotes until the end of the game--either you are consumed or
benefited.

*If* it's really happening -- and there are sure some horrible and
spooky stories out there being told by believable sounding people
--
it's imperative that we learn the truth of the good/evil motives
the
aliens operate from and take appropriate action.  I understand the
argument people propose about how there's no point in knowing what
we
can do nothing about, but that assumes an omnipotent alien force
without
giving human ingenuity a chance against it. Sure they may be
overwhelmingly superior in the tech areas of space vehicle
construction,
but they're obviously not (if they're really there at all) too sure
of
themselves and their power when they're confronted with large
numbers
of humans in a setting.  Several of the UFO contactee accounts I've
read report that there seems to be an alien fear of human emotion

 [More]

#: 82553 S10/Paranormal Issues
    23-Dec-90  11:50:28
Sb: UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

 [Continued]
(continuing)
..there seems to be an alien fear of human emotion as if that
emotion
had a power in itself that was more dangerous to the aliens than
physical
tools such as weapons.  They seem to go to great lengths to
immobilize
their victims physically and to try to soothe them mentally too, as
if
perhaps an unruly human was too risky to be around.  Maybe it's
just a
case of tranquilizing the critter so he won't hurt himself or his
scientist examiners, much as we do in tranquilizing, say, bighorn
sheep
to check on their health and range, etc., but if it's more than
that,
then we have a weapon to use to fight back and that means that
giving up
before there's a contest is not only suicidal, but also stupid.

It seems to me the human mind operates on two levels:  the
individual
brain thinking up solutions to cope with its individual
environment, and
the collective consciousness which works almost as an entity, one
neuron
(individual brain) sparking synapses to another to another to
another
until the whole mass collectively is working on the same problem
but
bringing a wealth of diverse experience, intuition, inventiveness,
and
creativity to bear on solving the shared dilemma.  Sort of like
what
happened with the fall of the Eastern Bloc domination, coming on
the
heels of the Chinese move for independence.  It wasn't a single
person
or even a group of people, but rather the whole mass of humanity
that
acted as if with one mind to achieve the goal--and succeeded. Maybe
we
could bring the same kind of force to bear on solving the alien
domination problem too, but those who throw in the towel for us
before
the fight begins don't give us a chance.  If we quit without
trying,
we're certainly doomed, so why not take a crack at freedom?  Can't
be
any worse off.

Then there's the our-government-is-in-on-it-with-Them idea, with
the
whole bit about the Dulce base... Now that's *really* spooky.

Such thoughts keep you warm when it's -22 deg.  =PN


#: 82556 S10/Paranormal Issues
    23-Dec-90  11:50:59
Sb: Sitchin & ancient astro
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165

Terry, I saw your message about the Sitchin theories and had to
compliment you on expressing his ideas more succinctly and clearly
than
anyone I've read yet. I've heard Sitchin on KOA's "Weird Night"
twice
(an hour interview each) and have read three of the books, but the
body
of information is so enormous it's hard to distill into rational
thought-bites--at least it was for me, but you've done an excellent
job
of it.  Do you know Dr. Sitchin? And have you read any of Neil
Freer's
work which is derived from Sitchin's?   Having read all five of the
books, how do you rate the plausibility of the ancient astronauts
ideas?
               ==Peggy==

#: 82557 S10/Paranormal Issues
    23-Dec-90  11:51:26
Sb: #UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165
Terry, Good point about how similar Dorothy Isaacs' photo was to
the
Gulf Breeze one by Brenda Pollack.  It does seem to prove that
Brenda's
photo wasn't faked but weren't most of Dorothy's taken sans
witness?

I don't know enough about cameras, light, and film to even begin to
guess, but I do wonder if there could be some artifact of the
physical
device itself that produces strange "segmented worms" on the film
...
Would make an interesting test to see if anyone could get the same
photographic result without photographing the night sky and thus
determine that it's something in the box itself, or, if the study
were
well enough constructed, determine that it's NOT something in the
box
and therefore must be something in the sky. Unsolved Mysteries said
their camera which was used at the same time and pointed in the
same
direction as DI's didn't produce the same photos.  That's
interesting,
but it would've been better if they'd taken her camera and (1)
examined
it carefully for glitches or bugs, deliberate or accidental, (2)
attempted to take the same photos with her camera, (3) had her use
their
camera to see if the source of the photos is somehow HER and not
the
camera or the light in the sky
(like maybe being a channel of sorts or a person who produces
unusual
electrical energy fields that create patterns on film...not saying
this
is possible, just speculating), (4) had her test several other
kinds of
cameras to see if she produced the same results each time while
their
photog also tested the same cameras in the same location and on the
same
target, (5) tried different types of film to see if that had any
effect
on the resulting photos, and (6) tested for that sound she said she
could hear -- was there a measurable sound?  and if so, could it be
used
as a communication device not only from "them" but back to "them"
also?
Too bad it was an "infotainment" program and not serious
investigation--would be great to see the latter!  
==PN==

There are 2 Replies.
#: 82656 S10/Paranormal Issues
    23-Dec-90  20:50:57
Sb: #82557-#UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Trevor Prinn 100016,2726
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140 (X)

There was some very technical discussion about these pictures in
the
latest Paranet newsletter. It looks from what has been said there
as
though the pictures are due to faults within the camera. I didn't
understand the technicalities but it seems to be a problem with the
film
stopping intermittently and overexposing one frame.

Trev






#: 82673 S10/Paranormal Issues
    23-Dec-90  21:25:11
Sb: #82557-#UFO Camouflage?
Fm: John Hicks 76407,1264
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140 (X)

> Terry, Good point about how similar Dorothy Isaacs' photo was to
the
> Gulf Breeze one by Brenda Pollack.  It does seem to prove that  
    
> Brenda's photo wasn't faked but weren't most of Dorothy's taken
sans 
> witness?

  I have no problem with Brenda Pollak's photo, partly because the
result is technically consistent with conditions and subject, and
because others using different cameras got results consistent with
hers.
  Pretty much the only variable in that incident was how steady
each
photographer held the camera during a probably three-to-five-second
exposure.
  Now, it appears that Dorothy Isaacs' strange frames of film may
be
another kettle of fish.
  I wonder if it occured to anyone to find out if her camera would
do
single-frame exposures. I don't recall that being mentioned. That
could
make the frames mighty easy to fake.
  Next, I wonder if the camera intermittently jams. If it were to
stop
for a couple of seconds with the shutter hung open every now and
then,
similar frames would result.
  Of course there's no good reason all that activity couldn't take
place
in the approximately 1/30 second the shutter would be open for one
particular frame.
  Too bad UM doesn't really give any information and just goes for
the splash.

                                               jbh





#: 82787 S10/Paranormal Issues
    24-Dec-90  11:10:11
Sb: #82673-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: John Hicks 76407,1264

I couldn't agree more about the UM going for the splash rather than
the
research.  I wish they'd given more info.  Did you see Trev's
message
about the Paranet newsletter info on her camera?  I'll have to
check on
that but it sounds as if they found just what you suspected.

Have a nice holiday! ==PN==





#: 83213 S10/Paranormal Issues
    27-Dec-90  01:58:50
Sb: #82553-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140



     Hi I'm Klatu jr. and I'll sell you this (BAM!,slaming his arm
on
the hood of the saucer) UFO for 40 credits down and 40 credits a
centon
for ever, this (BAM!) UFO for 40 credits down and 40 credits
centon,This
(BAM!) UFO for 40 credits down and this (BAM!) 79' Ford pickup that
was
only dirven once by a little old Earthling I abducted in Ohio for
40
credits down and 40 credits a centon for ever! Turn left at Rigal
IV and
head straight down Milky Way Boulevard, we're the last star cluster
on
the right. That's Honest Klatu's Used UFO Lot. Come on down.

     I love it Peggy, that's got to be one of the most intelligent
things said yet about the whole UFO issue. Not just Honest Klatu,
but
your whole train of thought about where the aliens got the
technology
they possess.I think our discussion has given us a whole new basis
to
begin to understand what it is the aliens are about. It opens up a
whole
new area to explore as to what the aliens see in the Earth and
might
want from Humans.A race 100,000 years or more advanced that us
really
isn't going to find much that we can give them outside of raw
materials
(which still may be).But a race 300 to 500 years ahead of us
will probably have quite a lot in common with us.

      You mentioned that they don't seem as sure of themself when
confronted with large numbers of humans. That indicates a common
feeling
that they and we share. Think of the last time you found yourself
in a
crowd of strangers and suddenly started to feel nervous about it.
I know
it's happened to me a few times. How many other feelings do we have
in
common? Maybe this is one of the secrets their afraid we will find
out
some day. Once we understand them we may find that we are not as
defenseless against them as we are lead to think. This fear and
interest
in human emotions sounds like one of the keys to understanding
them.
 [More]

#: 83214 S10/Paranormal Issues
    27-Dec-90  01:59:04
Sb: #82553-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140

 [Continued]
      Using this new prespective let me run a couple of thoughts
about
why their here pass you.

      1) Galactic law prohibits outside development of a star
system
where intelligent life is evolving.The primary system belongs the
race
who lives there. That makes the aliens claim-jumpers.

      2) The aliens are crooked business creatures come to con the
local
yolkels out of their land (the solar system). White collar
claim-jumpers.

      3) I think this is an interesting idea. You have probably
seen the
many films and TV shows showing the Air Force going out on a
mission
(WWII, Korea,Veitnam,etc.). The planes flying in neat formations on
the
way out, but coming back isn't so pretty. Their all shoot-up and
many of
them crash around the field or into the back of the carriers or the
water. It's quite a mess. If you count up all the reports of UFO
crashes
they suddenly look like they are falling out of the sky like flys.
The
FAA would groud an airline with that poor a safety record. Suppose
though that these are not accidental crashes. Suppose that these
are
combat ships coming back from a battle out there somewhere. Has the
Earth been unwittingly involved in a steallar war (see, I can do
Lear
and Cooper too. <G>). As strange as this one sounds it accounts for
a
LOT of what has been and is now going on, especially all the
secrecy on
the government's part. I'll let you think about this one for a bit.
I
just hope we're on the right side.
 [More]

#: 83215 S10/Paranormal Issues
    27-Dec-90  01:59:12
Sb: #82553-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140

 [Continued]
      4) A friend suggested this one. Their a galactic Hells-Angels
come
here to party at our expense until someone else comes along to run
them
off. Where's Hans Solo when you need him!

      These are just a few of the strange thoughts I've come up
with to
explain what the UFO's are here for. No more right or wrong than
any of
the other ideas I've heard over the years. They sure are fun
though.

      What I would like to see is more people get involved in this
thread. I bet there is a lot of other people with similar ideas to
ours
and I would like to hear them also. Who knows, this may be the kind
of
brainstorming necessary to get a handle on this thing.
      BTW, I got a Franklin Spelling Ace pocket calculator for
Christmas
and it is sure making these messages easier to write. Hope you had
a
nice Christmas too!

    Terry




#: 83482 S10/Paranormal Issues
    28-Dec-90  15:15:53
Sb: #82548-#UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Luc Therrien 70531,3505
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140 (X)

Sue, Re the Unsolved Mysteries episode, I missed it.  Can you
summerize
it for me?  I'm curious about this as I heard other people
mentioning
this episode and I didn't have enough information.  Nevertheless,
I was
wondering if she did try to experiment taking pictures *herself*
with
*two* different cameras.  This may have shown a defect on the
camera or
even more weird, her owm mental influence on the camera?  Or
perhaps
this has been tried?

Au revoir, Luc


#: 84106 S10/Paranormal Issues
    31-Dec-90  12:34:12
Sb: #83482-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Luc Therrien 70531,3505

Luc, Now that you ask, I'm not sure whether she used more than one
camera in taking the photos of the UFO visitors.  (Re the Unsolved
Mysteries program about Dorothy Isaacs, who has regular contact
with
UFOs off her back porch and has filmed them numerous times and now
shows
prints of those films and probably sells them too.)

I have the impression that she used a video camera and a still
camera,
but I am not certain now that I think of it.  It's possible that
I'm
confusing that with Ed Walters' UFO pictures.  John Hicks would
probably
be the best person to ask as he commented on the Isaacs photos and
he's
a camera expert too. He did mention something about the technical
aspects of the camera, but I don't have a copy of that message at
hand
to quote.

The Unsolved Mysteries program did say, at the end of their report,
that
their cameraman had stood beside Dorothy Isaacs and photographed
the
same area of sky she was photographing at the same time but his
camera
produced no strange lights or images at all, which makes it sound
like
it's either a glitch in her camera or some energy she produces
which
botches film. John Hicks, again, could say better than I.  He's
#76407,1264 here on CIS.
               ==Peggy==

#: 83483 S10/Paranormal Issues
    28-Dec-90  15:16:02
Sb: #83215-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Luc Therrien 70531,3505
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

Terry, this is one of the most fascinating thread I've read
anywhere in
CIS. However, perhaps because I missed the beginning about UFO
Camouflage it is hard for me to contribute an informed comment. 
Would
it be possible to summerize the initial idea behind this thread? 
Also,
have you guys read the books by Whitley Strieber?  Do you agree
with his
claims?

Au revoir, Luc

#: 84045 S10/Paranormal Issues
    31-Dec-90  03:49:08
Sb: #83215-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: William McLaughlin 70401,523
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

Terry:

      I'm curious. All of the theories that you mention rest on the
assumption that UFOs are spaceships from other planets. Why? Could
they
not be something else?


                                                           Mac

#: 84104 S10/Paranormal Issues
    31-Dec-90  12:33:43
Sb: #83213-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

l Terry, That's the FUNNIEST commercial I've ever seen!!! I wish it
was on video! What a wonderful imagination you have! Good thought,
too,
about the fear of large numbers.  Might be compared to the Raj era
in
India or any of the other British Empire ventures where a tiny,
tiny
handful of foreign interlopers controlled masses of native
populations
merely by having a few small units of slightly superior technology
(not
terribly far advanced but only just sufficiently advanced to exert
control) such as rifles or pistols or machine guns or, gee, if you
look
at Spain's conquest of Mexico, just the advance of using horses and
armor...  The trick was to make the natives THINK you were
superior...a
few flashy tricks and a tadbit of clever tech and you've got it
made...they'll tremble in fear and obedience ever after.  'Course,
if they ever get a glimmer of a notion that you're NOT all that
powerful, look out, it's revolution time.  All the other Empires
have
fallen--is the UFO Empire next (if we stop fearing them, who knows,
maybe we could just commandeer a ship ourselves and turn the old
tables
on 'em.)
   Your idea about the returning combat survivors is an interesting
one
to pursue, too... hmmm... the claim jumpers who are violating the
"non-intervention pact" (sounds familiar, doesn't it) are at war
because of their illegal activities and we're like the New Guineans
during WWII who saw the mysterious sky birds whizzing by now and
then
and even found them on the ground sometimes but didn't understand
what
they were and made "Cargo Cults" from the wreckage.  (After all, if
it
comes from the sky and does "magical" things, it must be a god,
mustn't
it?)
       Your friend's "galactic Hell's Angels" explanation is
hilarious...why not!!!?
       But seriously, I do think that brainstorming sessions such
as these here on CIS are the best hope for finding solutions to any
number of and kind of problems... More brains=more intelligence? 

==PN==

#: 83484 S10/Paranormal Issues
    28-Dec-90  15:16:09
Sb: #82557-#UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Luc Therrien 70531,3505
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140 (X)

Although I've commented earlier on this I want to support your
experiments (3), (4) & (5).  My suggestions were going along that
line.
They would have given much needed information to solve this
mystery.



#: 84107 S10/Paranormal Issues
    31-Dec-90  12:34:33
Sb: #83484-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Luc Therrien 70531,3505

Thank you, Luc, for your endorsement.  Now if we could only find
someone
to perform the experiments! ==Peggy==

#: 83813 S10/Paranormal Issues
    30-Dec-90  04:26:42
Sb: #82557-#UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140 (X)

Peggy:

  Sorry for the delayed reply; you know: Christmas, business, out
of
town, hanky panky and all... but:

  Until seeing the UM episode I had never heard of Isaacs and,
having
seen it, I'm not very impressed since the host pointed out that
professional photojournalists, with better equipment, filming the
same
thing at the same time, failed to get similar results. That does
suggest
strongly, to me, anyway, that Isaacs's "UFOs" are products either
of her
defective camera or her defective honesty, although I am open to
persuasion either way.

  Nevertheless, I am intrigued by the similarities between her
photos
and those taken (and published) by Brenda Pollack in Gulf Breeze.
I am
even more intrigued by the similarities between Mrs. Pollack's
photos
and numerous photos of UFOs taken years earlier by various persons
in
various places around the world. I am particularly intrigued by her
photo that shows what *looks* like an airborne jellyfish with a
mottled,
multicolored bottom and a serrated circular circumference. Almost
(if
not) identical airborne objects have been photographed around the
planet
over the years, and none have been proved faked to my knowledge.

  Although I am a journalist of long (and mostly unremarkable)
standing,
with a few interesting photos along the way, I can't claim any more
photo

[More]

There are 2 Replies.

#: 83814 S10/Paranormal Issues
    30-Dec-90  04:26:50
Sb: #83813-#UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165

[Continued]
expertise than you do, and can't be any more judgmental/critical of
alleged UFO photos than you are.

  On the other hand, I do finally have my own darkroom, to which I
converted an unneeded bathroom over the holidays. It was
surprisingly
easy and inexpensive, costing less than a thousand bucks for
equipment
and chemicals and only a few hours of uncomplicated work. Of
course,
while carefully selecting and buying the darkroom equipment and
supplies
I also managed to acquire $1,300 worth of Nikon camera
body/lens/flash
equipment, but that wasn't required. I think that's called "impulse
buying".

  Anyway, I'm finally in a position to realize a long standing
ambition.
Any day now there will emerge from my darkroom a faked copy of the
famous AP photo of the assasination of Lee Harvey Oswald by Jack
Ruby -
with Terry Ecker laughing in the background. If you ever see such
a
photo, you can bet your life it was faked.

     Terry






#: 83853 S10/Paranormal Issues
    30-Dec-90  09:52:56
Sb: #83814-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: John Hicks 76407,1264
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165

  I think the effects (jellyfish) you're referring to have one
thing in
common; long exposure.
  We know that's the case in Brenda Pollak's photo, and is most
likely
the case in Isaacs' films, whether intentional or otherwise.
  Point-sources record on film as streaks or squiggles. You know
about the common star-trail photos?
  Congrats on the darkroom! Sounds like you did good.
  BTW, if you're into black & white, I highly recommend Ilford HP-5
developed in Kodak T-Max developer. Develop it as if it were T-Max
400.
Very forgiving film and great developer.
  If you haven't discovered it yet, Kodak T-Max films are a royal
pain.

                                               jbh

#: 84108 S10/Paranormal Issues
    31-Dec-90  12:35:18
Sb: #83813-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165
Hi Terry, Glad to hear from you again--and I hope your holidays
were
very happy! Not to worry about the delayed reply...as per a message
I
posted today, I won't be able to drop in to Issues as often,
myself,
because of $$, so my own replies are likely to be delayed...maybe
a
bunch.  (Today I'm catching up on waiting mssgs and replying but
it'll
be at least a week or more before I stop in again.)
       Yes, there was a striking correspondence between the Isaacs
photos and the Gulf Breeze ones, despite the inability of the
Unsolved
Mysteries cameraman to duplicate DI's photos while standing in the
same
place at the same time.
       And you're right, too, about the similarity to other photos
of
strange sky things taken around the world for many years.  I
couldn't
say whether any of those pix has been subjected to stringent
analysis or
not, so I wouldn't know if any have been "debunked" or not, but
it's
certainly odd that so many taken in so many different places look
so
much alike. Linda Moulton Howe's book, *An Alien Harvest*, shows a
very
similar photo on the cover and duplicates it inside, complete with
explanation of what's been done to examine the photo.
       Flying jellyfish...yep, some sure look like that--but what
if that's exactly what they are?  Sort of a time-space tear (Local
UFO
group leader calls it an "ethereal tear" and says Bigfoot and UFOs
and
other strange stuff slips in and out through it all the time--there
are
supposed to be several such tears, one being just south of Denver
and
running several miles over Castle Rock and down to Colorado Springs
where a lot of weird stuff goes on, not to mention NORAD's
location.) 
Could be there are giant sky-riding jellyfish critters who drop in
for
a look-see now and then.  :)
                     
              ==PN== PS--sorry, I lost the rest of your message.  
   Will try to catch it when I cone back on to send this.

#: 83485 S10/Paranormal Issues
    28-Dec-90  15:16:17
Sb: #82656-#UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Luc Therrien 70531,3505
To: Trevor Prinn 100016,2726 (X)

If that is the case, why wasn't the camera checked before? 
Although I
haven't seen the episode, I have enuf info now to question the
show.  As
Peggy said, there wasn't much systematic investigation that went on
in
this report.
Au revoir, Luc



#: 84056 S10/Paranormal Issues
    31-Dec-90  06:27:41
Sb: #83485-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Trevor Prinn 100016,2726
To: Luc Therrien 70531,3505

I haven't seen the show either (I live in Britain), so the info on
Paranet is all I have read about it. According to that the camera
wasn't
checked because the owner wouldn't let it be checked. It sounds as
though the program's producer initially thought there was a story,
and
when he realised there wasn't, it was too late to pull it from the
program. That's my guess from what I've read.

Trev





#: 84102 S10/Paranormal Issues
    31-Dec-90  12:32:06
Sb: #82960-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Alan Greig 100012,1273

Thanks, Alan.  Maybe my UK friends will make an audiotape of one to
send
me while waiting for it to show up here.  I haven't found it so
far,
but will keep an eye open for it.

I recently came across a list of international computer BBS while
I was
on a Denver-area BBS recently and I was surprised to see how many
England had.  It had been my impression there weren't as many as
that,
but maybe the folks who gave me that impression just weren't as
interested in BBSing. This list contains 33 BBS in England plus a
long
list of US BBS and other countries' too--Canada, Australia, Taiwan,
Finland, the Netherlands, & Germany.  It'd take you a few minutes
to
print it online (I don't know if it can be downloaded, which would
be
faster), but it might be worth the time to you.  If you are
interested,
you'll it's "The World Wide GT BBS List as of 12/29/1990" and it's
on the Bulletin Menu of Netcomm BBS, whose US phone # is:
303-730-6709.  (I don't know what international dialing codes you'd
have
to use.)

==Peggy==


#: 84270 S10/Paranormal Issues
    01-Jan-91  15:55:58
Sb: #84106-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: John Hicks 76407,1264
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140

  So far as I know, Isaacs used only one Super-8 film camera.
Someone on
PN said she used two, but I don't have a copy of the UM show to
confirm
that.
  If the camera was capable of single-frame exposures, which would
be
used for animation, then it would be easy to produce the streak
frames.
  Otherwise, various mechanical problems could have the same
result.
  It appears to me (from UM) that no one closely checked her
camera.
  Video is a somewhat different animal, and if the streaks were
occuring
in the approximately 1/30 sec. her movie camera had its shutter
open for
each frame, it's entirely possible that a video camera (or another
film
camera) would miss it entirely.
  The only real confirmation of her story would be to have her use
a
known-good sealed camera, or for others to film the same thing with
her.

                                               jbh




#: 84330 S10/Paranormal Issues
    02-Jan-91  00:39:38
Sb: #83483-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: Luc Therrien 70531,3505


  Hi Luc. I,ve been out of town for the 1st, hence the delay in the
reply. Glad to hear you find this interesting. I have always
thought
this subject has needed a more down to earth discussion. This is
not to
say that what others have to say are not relevant as they most
certainly
as relevant as any. It's just that I haven't heard much discussion
in
this direction.
  Basically the thread started out talking about how many sightings
report that the objects or beings looked like something other than
what
they were. In the Fyffe,Ala. sighting the witness described seeing
a
semi-tractor trailer flying through the air( not a real one but an
image
of one). In the Dec.90 issue of OMNI the article about some of the
letters that Bud Hopkins has recieved talked about a couple who
seen a
strange object in a field that they both feared. When they drove
past
it,it turned out to be a farm tractor( so they reported although
they
did not believe that was what they seen to start with ). The
discussion then moved on to whether the aliens can create a good
image of a common object ( to humans) to be able to use as
camouflage.
This moved the discussion on to whether the aliens are as advanced
overall as they would like us humans to believe.
 [More]

#: 84331 S10/Paranormal Issues
    02-Jan-91  00:39:48
Sb: #83483-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: Luc Therrien 70531,3505

 [Continued]
It's been a fun thread and some interesting ideas have come out of
it.I
hope to see it continue as I am sure there are other thoughts along
this
line yet to come out. One of the problems with this section
(paranormal)
is that there are so many different and interesting discussions
going on
about so many different things that it is sometimes hard to know
which
ones to jump into with both feet. Writing long messages on one
subject
sometimes sidetracks your thoughts on the other subjects :-)
  I hope this helps to bring you up to date. If you would like I
could upload the whole therad to you by E-mail ( as soon as I
figure out
how to <g>).
  Terry

    P.S. I have trouble with Strieber. Both in what he writes and
in how he writes it.

#: 84332 S10/Paranormal Issues
    02-Jan-91  00:40:02
Sb: #84045-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: William McLaughlin 70401,523 (X)


 Hello William. Yes, they most certainly could be something else.
I'm
working on the assumption that if these events are not created or
controlled by human then that it is most likely that we are being
visited by an alien race.That they are not to advanced from us and
not
to far from us,that they stumbled on to us about 50-60 years ago
and
that they are interested in us for something much more trival and
petty
than they are willing to let on to us. Their biggest problem is
that
they had the very bad luck to show up at a time that the human race
is
going through a major religious and metaphysical metamorphosis. I
really
don't feel that they have anything to do with the ancient
astronuats,
the pyramids, Satan or any other of the metaphysical connections 
(though Frank Turner has some interesting ideas about OBE's and UFO
abductions. Check out his OBE-abduction thread.).
  Now that I have been a crashing boor <G>,let me say that there
are
many possible explainations for UFO's. None anymore right or wrong
than
the others. These are just my own thoughts and opinions based on
what I
personally have gotten out of reading and talking to others. I feel
that
at this point in time the human race and the alien race are stuck
with
each other, for better or worse.
  You must have some different ideas (which is good) that I would
certainly like to hear about. The more discussion of different
ideas the
better chance we have to solve this jigsaw puzzle.

   Terry

#: 84333 S10/Paranormal Issues
    02-Jan-91  00:40:13
Sb: #84104-#UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140 (X)

  Hi Peggy. Hope your holidays were good.Sorry to hear you got the
CI$$$ blues.These folks need to take the hint and lower their
rates.Christmas is coming again too I hear <smile>.
  Can't take credit for the commerical. We got a guy here in Tampa
Bay
that does one just like it. He does this forward step with a
downward
hand slid to, like ZZ Top only not near as good.
  There is a guy over in Iraq right now who is a perfect example of
what
we have been talking about. Bought or stole all his technology. I
hope
we don't have to fight him to find out if he knows how to use it.
  My galactic war scenario has farther reaching implications. I
think the claim-jumpers are more worried about the Star Police
finding
them.How much for the planet without the cities? <g>
  I'll cut this short and try to space my messages so you can get
them. CI$ has got me blue to.

  Terry

    P.S. You caught me - Yes I'm a Trekkie too >-)



#: 84536 S10/Paranormal Issues
    03-Jan-91  03:37:47
Sb: #84333-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

Hi Terry, I'm back a little sooner than anticipated so I thought
I'd go ahead and answer now...

Thanks for the info about your local car ad guy--must be a scream
to watch!

By the way, I was thinking that your ad and the previous ideas
would make a great comic touch article -- do you want co-byline
billing?
Seriously.

You're so right about Saddam's borrowed technology...why do we
always
look for the messianic aliens when we've got a lot of pretty
demonic
"aliens" right here to serve as examples of the other side of the
coin?

See you next time---
                               ==PN==

#: 84421 S10/Paranormal Issues
    02-Jan-91  14:40:15
Sb: #84102-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: bruce johnson 72727,2312
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140 (X)

Peggy,

Now that you are only here occasionally ('once-in-a-blue-moon'? ;)
Would you mind recounting briefly the Hopi's revelation about the
end of
the world. I had been following it but missed the particulars.

We will all miss your cheerful presence. -B

#: 84534 S10/Paranormal Issues
    03-Jan-91  03:37:01
Sb: #Hopi Prediction-worldend
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: bruce johnson 72727,2312 (X)
Hi Bruce, I'm back on this week sooner than anticipated, and found
your message about the Hopi prediction.  I don't have the newspaper
clipping at hand, but will tell you to the best of my recollection
what
it said.  (If you needed the actual text, you could look in CIS's
online
newspapers for the Rocky Mountain News, late December, keyword
HOPI,
PREDICTION, END OF THE WORLD or stuff like that.  HOPI ought to do
it.

The reason it stuck in my mind was I'd just finished one of the
Tony Hillerman novels which dealt with the southwest Indians'
legend of
the end of this, the Fourth World, and the beginning of the next,
Fifth
world. Supposedly the legends were given to the tribes by their
gods and
they've been right every time so far.  The Third World was
destroyed by
flooding and this fourth world will be destroyed when the sun is
taken
away and all turns cold and mankind will barely survive.  All or
nearly
all the white men will die but a few Indians may survive it.  There
is
supposed to be a special ritual of sand paintings, dances and
chants
using certain amulets given to the tribe's special person by the
gods
and only if someone knows the rituals and can correctly perform the
dances and chants AND has the amulets will it be possible to "bring
back the sun."  (Can't help but compare the weather prediction to
nuclear winter or other disaster scenarios being presented by
non-mythologically-oriented scientists.)

That's the background.  The new prediction was made by a Hopi
tribal
leader (I don't recall his exact title) and he said his people had
tried
in the past to warn the white man that all the signs foretold in
the
legends have come to pass and this world is going to end if we do
not
stop what we're doing--basically it boiled down to the ancient
predictions telling of war in the middle east being sort of the
final
tripwire signalling the end and they're telling us to knock it off
before we trigger the end of the planet for everyone.
 [More]



#: 84535 S10/Paranormal Issues
    03-Jan-91  03:37:27
Sb: #84534-#Hopi Prediction-worldend
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140

[Continued]
The tribal leader said that other warning signs had already come to
pass, things like what we've done to the environment or WWII type
events,
if I recall correctly.  The Hopis say that all the other
predictions
have been true and they believe this one too will prove correct. 
They
are not optimistic that they can stop us but they feel it is their
duty
as the holders of the superior knowledge and Truth to try to warn
us and
try to make us see the light.  So far we've totally ignored them,
the
tribal representative said, and he's not optimistic this time will
be
any different, but nevertheless, things are so close to the
desperate
end, he is honor and duty bound to make the effort.

You can guess the governmental response.

If I have saved the clipping I should come across in by the time I
come
back to Issues again and I'll post another item if there's anything
more
I've missed here.

               ==PN== PS:  Thanks very much for the kind words!


#: 84610 S10/Paranormal Issues
    03-Jan-91  16:21:13
Sb: #84535-Hopi Prediction-worldend
Fm: bruce johnson 72727,2312
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140

Peg,

Thanks... (quick reply on line)

-cheers -b



#: 84890 S10/Paranormal Issues
    05-Jan-91  01:19:21
Sb: #83853-#UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165
To: John Hicks 76407,1264 (X)

RE: "You know about the common star-trail photos?":

  Yes; Anne and I are into astronomy on a very amateur level. She
is
quite knowledgeable about astronomy, but our telescope is a
beginner's
Meade 226. We're talking about upgrading and trying some
photography,
although, as you know, Florida is not an ideal location for that.

  RE my new darkroom, I sincerely appreciate your advice and would
welcome more. My first impulse was to ask by Email, or whatever
they
call it now, but I'm asking here on the assumption that your
expertise
in photography probably would be appreciated by many other members.

  Your comments about Ilford HP-5 and Kodak T-Max developer
startled me
into realizing how many years it has been since I've been in a
darkroom.
(It was long enough ago that I was using a 4 x 5 Speed Graphic,
and,
come
to think of it, I wish I had one now.) The truth is, I don't know
what
you're talking about. (Blush.)

  Since September 1975, when I met and fell in love with the
idiot-proof
Yashicamat 120 TLR and Kodak 400 Tri-X Pan, I've used nothing but
400
Tri-X, and left the developing to others, because I got
consistently
acceptable and occasionally outstanding results, and I figured if
it
ain't broke, don't fix it.  After all, I'm not a professional
photographer or even a photojournalist; I'm just a journalist who
also
takes pictures.

[More]



#: 84891 S10/Paranormal Issues
    05-Jan-91  01:19:33
Sb: #84890-#UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 (X)

[Continued]

  As such, I am almost exclusively into black & white, and therein
lies the problem that drove me to my own darkroom. It is becoming
more
and more difficult to get b&w film developed and photos printed
commercially, and b&w rush jobs are impossible - at least in a town
this
size. So I decided the only practical solution was to resume doing
my
own developing and printing, and built and equipped my new
darkroom.

  I used to be reasonably good at that, but that was a long time
ago.
So, recognizing that my knowledge was hopelessly outdated, I relied
on
the advice of the dealer from whom I bought the stuff. I bought a
Beseler enlarger with a Nikon lens, plus an up to 11 x 14 easel and
the
usual timer, trays, thermometer, squeegie, tongs, developing tank,
containers, etc. For chemicals I got Kodak D-76 for film and Dektol
for
prints, Kodak fixer, TKO orbit bath, Kodak Indicator stop bath and
Kodak
Photo-Flo 200 solution. I got an assortment of papers, figuring I
should
do some experimenting.

  And, of course, I laid in a supply of film - yes, Kodak 400 Tri-X
Pan for black and white and Kodak Gold 400 for color, although I
expect
to continue having my color work developed and printed commercially
for
the time being.
  And now, at the height of my euphoria, you hit me with "I highly
recommend Ilford HP-5 developed in Kodak T-Max developer. Develop
it as
if it were T-Max 400. Very forgiving film and great developer.
  "If you haven't discovered it yet, Kodak T-Max films are a royal
pain."

   Frankly, I don't even know what Ilford HP-5 and Kodak T-Max are.
Please elaborate; I'm serious about this.

     Terry



There are 4 Replies.

#: 84960 S10/Paranormal Issues
    05-Jan-91  12:37:45
Sb: #84891-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: John Hicks 76407,1264
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 (X)

> difficult to get b&w film developed and photos printed
commercially

 It's much the same here in Orlando. The high-volume labs are
horrible;
the pro labs do a good job if you're not in a hurry.
  I've been darkroom-less for two years, and I'm about to use that
spare bedroom for something other than storage. I do miss the
newspaper
darkroom.

  It sounds like your dealer is someone you can trust. He could
have
made more money by selling you an off-brand lens, but he steered
you
straight.

>   Frankly, I don't even know what Ilford HP-5 and Kodak T-Max
>   are. Please  elaborate; I'm serious about this.

  OK, here goes.
  You're used to Tri-X. It's a great film. Ilford HP-5 is Ilford's
(a Brit. mfgr.) equivalent to Tri-X. I prefer it because the middle
to
light tones show more separation of tonal values, which helps in
newspaper reproduction.
  If you're simply making prints, or going for reproduction on
coated
stock (slick magazines), it's six of one, half-dozen of the other.
Try
both and use whichever gives you the results you prefer.
  Kodak T-Max films are b&w films which use a new emulsion which
gives
slightly finer grain and sharper images. They're available in ISO
100,
400 and 3200. The downside of the T-Max 100 and 400 films are that
there's practically no margin for error.

                                       *continued*





#: 84961 S10/Paranormal Issues
    05-Jan-91  12:37:58
Sb: #84891-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: John Hicks 76407,1264
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 (X)

  The old "expose for the shadows and let the highlights fend for
themselves" and "f8 and be there" don't apply to T-Max films.
They're
great for studio work, but a real pain if you can't control the
lighting. Also they're very finicky in developing.
  Kodak T-Max 3200, though, is great stuff. Consider it to be
almost
exactly the same as Tri-X, but with an effective speed of 1600. You
can
push-process it out to around 6400 before it poops out.
  Now, to developers etc.
  D-76 is an old standby. However, I hate mixing powders, so I
prefer liquid concentrate chemicals.
  Kodak HC-110 could be considered to be a liquid D-76. It'll give
you aboutthe same results. If you hate powders but like D-76,
HC-110 is
a good choice.
  My pick is Kodak T-Max developer. It's a liquid concentrate
developer
(mix the concentrate with water) that gives a little more shadow
detail,
a little less grain and a little sharper images than D-76 or
HC-110.
  It's supposedly intended for the T-Max films, but gives great
results with everything. A good starting point using T-Max
developer is
to develop Tri-X or HP-5 at the same time/temp. as listed for T-Max
400
film.
  Speaking of liquids, you can use Kodak Rapid Fixer (liquid)
rather
than the regular powdered stuff. Fix film for about two minutes
rather
than five.
  For paper, Kodak Ektaflo chemicals are great. These (dev & fix)
are
liquid concentrates that you mix as needed. They may seem expensive
at
first, but the one-gallon sizes last a long time.

                                       *continued*

#: 84962 S10/Paranormal Issues
    05-Jan-91  12:38:22
Sb: #84891-#UFO Camouflage?
Fm: John Hicks 76407,1264
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 (X)

  Kodak Polycontrast papers (use filters to select contrast grades)
have some developer incorporated into the emulsion, but that means
that
you don't really have much control over development.
  Better (imho) is Kodak Polyprint. It doesn't have developer
incorporated, er, or if it's a little too light at the normal
development time, you ca just let it cook a few minutes longer.
  Hope this helps.
  Also, I hope folks don't mind these few entirely off-topic
messages. ;-)

                                               jbh



#: 85203 S10/Paranormal Issues
    06-Jan-91  18:14:55
Sb: #84962-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165
To: John Hicks 76407,1264 (X)

  Thanks, John; I will take your advice.

RE: "I hope folks don't mine these few entire off-topic messages.":

  I, too. Of course, the folks here do seem to grant a little
tolerance to us lost Fukawe Indians. :-)

     Terry



#: 84973 S10/Paranormal Issues
    05-Jan-91  13:50:10
Sb: #84891-#UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Darrell Green 72406,1736
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165 (X)

Terry, if you want to get into B&W astrophotography, here's a
little
tip.  Far and away, the best B&W film for astrophotography is Kodak
2415
Tech Pan. 
Develop it in Kodak D-19 for 4 minutes @ 68 degrees.  It yields
very
high contrast and extremely fine grain.  For long exposure
astrophotos
of faint objects you will want to gas-hypersensitize the film
before
exposure to greatly reduce reciprocity failure -- but that is a
whole
other subject.

I realize that astrophotography was not the main thrust of your
message, but I thought I throw out this info in case you found it
helpful.  <grin>

:dg



#: 85202 S10/Paranormal Issues
    06-Jan-91  18:14:48
Sb: #84973-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165
To: Darrell Green 72406,1736 (X)

  Thanks, Darrell. I appreciate advice, and expect I'll be seeking
more from you in the astronomy forum. :-)

     Terry




#: 85041 S10/Paranormal Issues
    05-Jan-91  22:46:40
Sb: #84332-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: William McLaughlin 70401,523
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

Terry:

      Thanks for the reply. I (and many others) reject the
hypothesis that holds that UFO/abduction phenomena are the result
of an
extraterrestrial race who travel to Earth in spaceships for the
purpose
of studying our culture. There are just too many things that don't
fit.

     Why do you suggest that the UFO phenomenon is only 50-60 years
old? Data of human/UFO/"alien" contact can be found going back
thousands
of years. They're often missed because the descriptions of these
events
are couched in the terminology of the religio-philosophical belief
system of the reporter. In pre-scientific cultures, these events
were
reported as contact with god/desses, faeries, leprechauns or the
like.
     One of the interesting things one finds when comparing earlier
encounters with those of the present day is that there seems to be
a bit
of deception going on. They seem to tailor their appearances to the
belief-systems of the people they manifest to. One UFO in the
middle-ages dropped an anchor from the sky. This would seem
necessary to
folks who had been raised in the age of the great trading ships.

                                   [CONTINUED]

#: 85042 S10/Paranormal Issues
    05-Jan-91  22:46:50
Sb: #84332-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: William McLaughlin 70401,523
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

                                   [CONTINUED]

     A large number of sightings around the turn of this century
contained reports of encounters with seemingly human occupants. The
airships were large and clanked and hissed like most of the
sophisticated machinery of the day did. When spoken to, they said
that
they were from a nearby state and were taking a flying machine of
their
invention to another state.

     Many religious "miracles" bear a striking resemblance to UFO
contacts. The events at Fatima, Portugal in 1917 had all the
hallmarks
of a classic UFO encounter. I quote from Vallee's "Dimensions":
"The
events at Fatima involve luminous spheres, lights with strange
colors,
a feeling of 'heat waves'-all physical characteristics commonly
associated with UFOs. They even include the typical falling-leaf
motion
of the saucer zig-zagging through the air."

     Although the "alien" only said she was "from Heaven", the
people
and the church decided that she was the Virgin Mary. When people of
a
scientific culture have a similar experience, they interpret it as
an
alien culture which is more advanced than ours which is studying
us.

                                                           Mac

#: 85120 S10/Paranormal Issues
    06-Jan-91  08:30:20
Sb: #84331-#UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

Terry, I noticed your message to Luc Therrien in which you
mentioned
having the entire thread of the "UFO Camouflage" discussion in your
files.  I didn't save it (actually I did save it in parts but
discovered
I'd erased sections of it -- oops! -- so it's gone now) and would
love
to have a copy.  Would it be possible for you to send a duplicate
to me? 
I'm not positive how you'd extract that single thread from your
program's memory (I've forgotten which you're using--TAP or ATO),
but it
would be possible to copy the "saved" file and even to use a
compression
program to shrink it before sending.  Maybe one of the others can
give
details on the how to part of the electronic transmission...if
that's
too difficult, though, or if you'd prefer to just print & mail it,
I'd
be delighted to send you my address (Email) and to reimburse your
mailing & printing costs. Let me know if you it could work out,
okay? 
Thanks!  (BTW, I thought sure that this thread would wind up in the
library here on CIS but I have not found it--have you?  Anyone?)
               ==PN==



#: 85126 S10/Paranormal Issues
    06-Jan-91  11:18:00
Sb: #85120-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Bob Trevithick 73567,2675
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140 (X)

Peggy and Terry,

I don't know what, if any, problems there may be in this forum
regarding
disk quotas, so this may be a bad idea.  But why not just upload
that
thread to the lib so anyone can grab it?  I would like a copy
myself...

In at least one other forum I participate in heavily, there is an
ongoing struggle to keep the number of files down to a reasonable
level
because CIS only grants the forum 'x' amount of disk space.  Is
this the
case here?  Any sysops around?  :-)

Bob


#: 85121 S10/Paranormal Issues
    06-Jan-91  08:30:43
Sb: #84421-#UFO Camouflage?
Fm: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140
To: bruce johnson 72727,2312 (X)

Bruce, In case you have not already received this info by the time
I
come back online, the HOPI PROPHESIES article was in the Rocky
Mountain
News, Dec 24,
1990.  Because of the CIS deal with RMN, I can't quote the whole
thing
here, but the gist of it is "It's starting to get close to the
(world's)
last stages," according to Hope Elder Martin Gashweseoma.  He and
others
are urging the governor at Santa Fe to use his influence to help
deliver
the Hopi message of peace "or there is no hope for the nations to
survive." He says there have been four appeals already, one to the
United Nations, and the last chance has been given to America
(there's
something religiously special to the Hopi about Santa Fe and that's
why
they're mounting the last appeal there.)  Gashweseoma's speech (20
min)
was translated into English, and he then produced to small bits of
sacred stone tablets which had told the Hopi to watch for certain
signs
that the world's on a dangerous course:  famine, sickness,
earthquakes,
natural disasters, and finally a dangerous buildup of powerful
weapons
"destructive to all mankind."  Apparently they feel that the signs
have
all been met and there's just one last shot at stopping
destruction, and
that only will work if the American option is exercised starting
with
the governor of New Mexico at Santa Fe.  They call it the "last
chance"
to stop warmongering and restore the Earth's balance or else risk
the
end of the world.  According to this report, the Hopis foretold the
Hiroshima and the development of the UN and listed a number of
proofs
that the world is now out of balance.
     Might be worth checking the Santa Fe, NM, papers for more
detailed
reports...if anyone's done this already, please let the rest of us
know what titles/dates to look for in our searches.
               ==Peggy==



#: 85139 S10/Paranormal Issues
    06-Jan-91  11:59:56
Sb: #85121-UFO Camouflage?
Fm: bruce johnson 72727,2312
To: Peggy Noonan 71760,1140

Peggy,

As you might know, the Hopi's gathered together on their sacred
mountain
in the last couple of years awaiting the end. I was wondering if
they
had a date in mind for the latest prediction. Well believe it or
not, I
guess we should all party hardy, eh? -b      
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