SUBJECT: MORE ON CROP CIRCLES FILE: UFO3206 PART 1 CIS THREAD(S) FOLLOWING SEPT. 22 UPLOAD OF CIRCLE.TXT. (Right margin adjusted for viewing utilities and loading by most word processors, text-with-line-breaks.) (As of this date There were 52 downloads of this file from ISSUES/PARANORMAL Lib. 10, uploaded Sept. 22, 1991). ------------------------ #: 45583 S7/Extraterrestrials? 23-Sep-91 21:16:53 Sb: #45328-#Crop circles Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 To: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335 (X) There is a substantial thread on crop circles which has been uploaded to Issues, Sec 10, Paranormal. It was taken from the Science and Health Forum of the WGA-BBS, a members-only BBS for the Writers Guild of America (television and screenwriters). I was part of this discussion, which develops some surprising but (for me) very satisfying explanations. The messages were uploaded on Compuserve partly in hope that those with greater expertise in the matters that are discussed -- millimeter and sub-millimeter lasers, masers, the physical effects of ionized gases, etc - would provide commentary. There is 1 Reply. #: 17555 S3/General 30-Sep-91 05:47:24 Sb: #17344-Controversial new file Fm: stuart lees 75300,247 To: Trevor Prinn (UK) 100016,2726 I'm inclined to agree with you about the hoaxers - they seem to have been very quiet about their exploits since the initial claims. There are a lot of unanswered questions about the circles, and every explanation only seems to emphasise how little anyone knows about them. I think the explanation for the braiding given in circle.txt was to do with the maser spinning as it was emitted...that doesnt explain the stalks being bent at the same height though, does it. I must admit, I find the maser idea a bit improbable - there have got to be better test sites than Wiltshire - but then the whole thing is improbable. Have you seen any of these circles yourself Trevor? -Stuart #: 45683 S7/Extraterrestrials? 29-Sep-91 00:21:36 Sb: #45675-CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) Since the thread that Sabaroff uploaded as CIRCLE.TXT, there have been several more small indications that the thesis may be correct. In NATURE last week is an article called "Measurement of atmospheric wavefront distortion using scattered light from a laser guide-star", which is based on US Dept of Defense work that began secretly in 1981, and was declassified in May of this year. So it is clear that the gov't has indeed been working within the general realm of lasers and the atmos-/meso-sphere. Also it has been discovered that the Dave/Doug hoaxster confession was arranged by a "news agency" that receives mail through its accountants, and does not have a telephone. Dave and Doug were asked point-blank on a talk show if they had ever been employed by a governmental intelligence agency, but they refused to answer, and chose to laugh the question off. (I should point out that I was a participant in the CIRCLE.TXT thread, and that I, too, am anxious for comment or response from those most knowledgeable in the fields under discussion. In point of fact, I would be happier if our conclusions were entirely incorrect, and the circles were the result of hoaxes, or whirlwinds.) #: 45697 S7/Extraterrestrials? 29-Sep-91 23:23:38 Sb: #CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X) Michael, needless to say I was delighted by the disclosures regarding DOUG/DAVE. We should bring them to L.A. and make them producers. On our WGA BBS, as you know, we also have a News and Current events forum. There were some things in President Bush's recent speech regarding radical reductions in offensive nuclear capabilities, and the centralization of reduced stockpiles, *and the diversion of large portions of the spared budget to B2 and SDI research* which I found startling, to say the least. Since much of our CIRCLE.TXT thread attributes (some) of the crop formations (calling them simply "circles" now seems simplistic) to SDI connected maser/laser experiments, some things make more sense. The press has tended to discredit the concept of SDI as do most scientists, yet if we call it EARTH WARS instead of STAR WARS it makes more sense. Bush called for retention of retaliatory systems, such as submarine based weapons, and the clustering of fixed site silos - reduced to single warhead missiles. Admirable, but inconceivable unless we had something else to back it up. A missile's greatest enemy is Electromagnetic Pulse Effect (EMP), something that microwave energy generates in enormous quantities. I suspect when we talk about "hardening" silos (or used to), the hardening referred to EMP, not structural integrity. This would suggest another credible function for space borne maser technology - and submarines would be shielded and cloaked from it. Am I looking too hard for a positive side to all this...? Bob There is 1 Reply. #: 45698 S7/Extraterrestrials? 30-Sep-91 01:58:08 Sb: #45697-#CIRCLE.TXT Fm: tom genereaux 76703,4265 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) You've got it a bit wrong. EMP is *not* produced by microwave emission. You can induce a phenomena that is similiar, but much reduced in magnitude. This assumes that you have lots of rust, aluminium oxide, and conductors of a wavelength appropriate to the frequency. Otherwise it all gets dissipated as heat. Not very much heat, at that. Now, hardening *did* factor in EMP, but it also factored in blast effect, radiation hardness, and so on. EMP is by necessity a low frequency phenomenon - on the order of a few 10's of hertz at best - and mostly a DC voltage field at that. The EMP test sites are the worlds largest ELF generators. (ELF = Extremely Low Frequency - 10khz and below.) Tom G. There is 1 Reply. #: 45702 S7/Extraterrestrials? 30-Sep-91 06:16:37 Sb: #45698-#CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: tom genereaux 76703,4265 (X) Tom, thanks for the clarification regarding the microwave/EMP relationship. It's equally useful to know that our logical processes have led us to an incorrect association, as it is to be confirmed. Perhaps more so, and your obvious expertise is much appreciated. We want to get it right. Responses like yours are welcome because their corrections lead to rethought questions. Could a very strong maser in any way affect the guidance and/or control systems of a missile as it leaves it's silo? And, if you know, what range of frequencies are considered to fall within the spectrum known as "microwave?" It is also my understanding that a nuclear detonation above ground would itself generate enough particle energy to affect communications and other electronic systems, and that such an event occured in the Pacific some years ago and wasn't much publicized. Are you aware of (that you can discuss) any spectra of radiation other than light or "microwave" which can be generated as coherent energy in a way similar to the maser/laser technology? Bob #: 45716 S7/Extraterrestrials? 30-Sep-91 17:35:59 Sb: #circle.txt Fm: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312 To: 71251,2445 (X) Bob, One thing that would be of great interest regarding SDI hypothesis would be the aspect of the ellipses (you as well as others noted that they are not circles). If beams struck from geosynchonous orbit, they would all have the same aspect - assuming the same platform. However, I don't know that SDI satellites would be geosynchronous. Certainly kinetic devices wouldn't be put out that far because of transit time. Beam weapons would have to deal with spread and hence attenuation over that distance. Be that as it may, the aspect ratio and orientation would be very interesting. Of course, I am assuming our jokers are using circular 'stencils'. If the originating platform is deliberately firing ellipses, all bets are off. Jon Brunson 76477,1312 There is 1 Reply. #: 45717 S7/Extraterrestrials? 30-Sep-91 17:48:08 Sb: #CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) Having just finished reading the recently uploaded CIRCLE.TXT discussion, I wanted to commend you (as the leading provocateur of the discussion) for what is by far the most innovative and thoughtful analysis of the phenomena I have yet encountered. Never before came across a BBS thread that made for such a compelling read! Not being of a conspiratorial bent, I am struggling mightily with your hypothesis that our defense establishment (or a small "black area" therein) would deliberately utilize the ancient circle legends of Wiltshire (a subject of rather remarkable obscurity until recently!) to disguise the ground effect of their maser/laser (or whatever) SDI tests. If you are correct that these are artifacts of SDI testing, would it not be safe to assume that *every* possible safeguard would be taken to insure the secrecy of the results? If so, it would seemingly require monumental courage and presumptiousness for an SDI project manager to conclude that the best of all possible testing alternatives would be a public display on the plains of Wiltshire. Would that our defense bureaucrats had that kind of imagination and guts! Another point; you mentioned that the technology necessary to create these patterns was, in part at least, probably made possible through the development of relatively high temperature superconducters. However, did not the circle phenomena develop in the early 80's, before these breakthroughs occurred? Seems to me that the *real* technological breakthrough was made at the time the first circles were created in the early 80's. The developments in the circle patterns since the early days reflect a relatively slow and plodding developmental pace (fairly modest variations on a theme) considering the magnitude of the original breakthrough (that would allow a circle to be created in the first place. [continued in the reply] There are 2 Replies. #: 45718 S7/Extraterrestrials? 30-Sep-91 17:48:12 Sb: #45717-#CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X) [continued] Anyway, keep up the good work in prodding people to do some analytical thinking about one of the more intriguing mysteries of our time. There is 1 Reply. #: 45726 S7/Extraterrestrials? 30-Sep-91 20:38:46 Sb: #45718-CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X) In the most recent issue of Nature is an article based on research and testing done by the Dept of Defense, starting in 1981, of ground to air laser imaging. As I make out, they were creating pin-points -- for use as artificial star- guides -- at a height of ten miles. This is spectacular lack of beam attenuation. The authors note that this work has continued since 1981, but was de-classified (to a degree) in May of this year. So we know now that related work was going on, in the time frame under discussion. #: 45727 S7/Extraterrestrials? 30-Sep-91 23:39:06 Sb: #45702-#CIRCLE.TXT Fm: tom genereaux 76703,4265 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) I should give some clarifications to my answer, first of all - it was rather late, and I was briefer in my reply than I meant to be. Large, (by large I mean gigawatts) transmitters can affect the guidance system of a missile by means of electromagnetic coupling. You can see this effect in a more limited fashion (and with a slightly different pathway) in your television set, when the next door ham beams a kilowatt down your TV antenna. Most of the energy is dissipated as heat in the receiving antenna, but a couple of volts of RF will still be coupled into the set. A simple filter will prevent this from being a problem - the energy gets dissipated as heat in the filter. Heating effects of a magnitude to severly disrupt a missile are by no means certain. You *can* potentially swamp a sensor with the coupled energy. Simple screening would take care of that. We do it all of the time. (Look at the door of your microwave oven for an example.) The most promising beam weapons are the neutral particle beam and the laser - either X-Ray, IR, or gamma. No one has produced a gamma ray laser yet, and we don't have a clue about how to do it, but it *is* theoretically possible. Masers are non-starters - they're bloody fussy beasts. You could use them in theory, but not in practice. The test you are refering to is Dominic Starfish Prime. This test was designed to test the effects of high-altitude burst on radio communications and radar, and not coincidentally, to test the long range effects of EMP. These effects were first noticed during a then secret three-shot high altitude test in the South Atlantic - the Argus series - sometime in 1958. Three more high-altitude bursts took place in the Dominic series, but only one had sufficient size to have anything more than negligble effect. The earliest reference in the open literature that I have is in the 1964 edition of "The Effects of Nuclear Weapons". By the Third edition < Cont'd > There are 2 Replies. #: 45728 S7/Extraterrestrials? 30-Sep-91 23:41:13 Sb: #45716-#circle.txt Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312 (X) Jon, the ellipses might be accounted for either by very slight drift of the stationary beam source, or by angle of incidence if it were slightly off a perpendicular with the target below. Considering the physical dimensions of most of the formations, and presuming a width of less than a centimeter for the point of emission, that's well within the paramaters of experiments already conducted here. From 25,000 miles - the altitude of a geosynchronous orbiter, the width of the formations is not contra-indicated by published test results *in the atmosphere.*. From overhead, the beam would have to penetrate a desnsity unit of only one Atmosphere - 14.7 lbs/sq. inch. Surface experiments produce less spread than we're seeing, over ground distances with an "equivalence" of ten or more atmospheres. Such experiments have been done at an aerospace facility in the hills of Malibu, quite close to where I live. The stated purpose was to accurately place a stationary spot on terrain MANY miles away, for studies of tiny increments of earth movement - ostensibly for earthquake detection study. As a pilot, I have made many approaches into the smog of Los Angeles. From overhead, the ground can be clearly seen, but when descending into the layer at a normal rate of descent, one is looking forward into it edgewise. Visibility sometimes drops from unlimited (downward) to less than a 1/4 mile edgewise. That's one reason an instrument rating is so important here. As to attenuation, we can already use kinetic devices to cut plate steel. I don't find it inconceivable that given the very high emission power possible, that we would still receive enough energy over that distance, and relatively narrow spread (1 cm. < 100 yards) to produce an effect. Also, geosynchronicity would be a must for precision, and prehaps safety. (*more on stencils in reply*) Bob. There is 1 Reply. #: 45729 S7/Extraterrestrials? 30-Sep-91 23:41:28 Sb: #45717-#CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X) Erik, your encouraging and complimentary response to CIRCLE.TXT is received with delight by all involved. Thanks! We're all professional writers, and have decided to place you in our Wills. We can be a vain lot... Re the conspiratorial aspect of the whole thing, I think it was the true purpose of STAR wars in the first place. Too many scientists debunked it in open hearings, while closed- door appropriations committees kept pouring classified money into it for me to believe it wasn't something "other" from the outset. As to the secrecy of the results, the likelihood was that the results might have been unpredictably detectable by the spy satellites of other countries (this started many years before Gorbachev). By placing the formations in a location (I'm also presuming an Anglo- American co-venture) which would guarantee obfuscation by the metaphysical history of the location, and simulating it, the story stayed on the occult book shelves for years. "It's an old story...". The perfect confounder for a new story. And so the CCCS book confirms. Great photos, not one word about the possibility of artifacts of human technology. Obviously, it worked. It's taken over ten years to get to this discussion. This kind of planning would have taken place among a very few at the top - certainly beyond the "need-to-know" of a project manager. By that I mean Joint Chiefs, the NSA, CIA, Executive branch. The shuttle pilots who may have deployed the orbiter(s) need not have known their function - only where to put them. As for the superconductor breakthroughs, "relatively high" temperatures are still on an order of -200 deg. C, making large scale experiments a lot more practical in the ambient conditions of space. In the CCCS book, the increasing precision and sophistication of the formations over the years indicates progressive refinement of the technology. [more in reply] #: 45730 S7/Extraterrestrials? 30-Sep-91 23:53:39 Sb: #45727-CIRCLE.TXT Fm: tom genereaux 76703,4265 To: tom genereaux 76703,4265 (X) the effect is discussed in depth. I do remember that there was discussion of the effect at the time of the tests - Life magazine had a story on it, and the West Coast and Oahu papers also ran stories. The effect is discussed in "Fundamentals Of Naval Weapons Systems", and the various electronic packaging manuals have sections on it. Like a lot of things, the information was out in the open, but you had to know where to look. (Also, those of us working on such things took them for granted - "Hey, that's *old* news. ). EMP, BTW, is *only* apparent at a distance in high- altitude bursts. Low altitude bursts dissipate the pulse through ground coupling within a few 10's of miles. (The distance also has a heck of a lot to do with the size of the device. The higher yield the device, the more powerful the EMP). Tom G. #: 17563 S3/General 30-Sep-91 08:09:29 Sb: #17529-Controversial new file Fm: Allen Cobb [PRC] 72451,1764 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 Bob, Your comments on the lunar laser detection experiment were interesting. I had been under the impression that the purpose of the experiment was to validate the accuracy of lunar ranging in general. In any case, DETECTION of a laser's reflection off the moon is a far cry from IMAGING a doughnut shape on the ground, with sharp edges, isn't it? ac #: 17675 S3/General 01-Oct-91 03:03:16 Sb: #17563-Controversial new file Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 To: Allen Cobb [PRC] 72451,1764 This week's NATURE reports work supported by the US Dept of Defense, starting in 1981, to focus a ground-based laser to a pin-point ten miles above the surface of the earth. (This to emulate a star's light, for focussing telescopes.) The work was secret for ten years, and was partially de- classified in May of this year. Lasers can jiggle single atoms about; even from a great height, a football field is a pretty large canvas, in comparison. #: 17668 S3/General 01-Oct-91 01:31:16 Sb: Controversial new file Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Allen Cobb [PRC] 72451,1764 Allen, to the best of my knowledge, the lunar laser detections experiments had no (disclosed) relationship to SDI. That its success may have confirmed for some the possibilities, and thus helped to launch it, is unknowable (yet). That was back in the early '70's. The reflectors left on the moon were formed to compensate for spreading over that great distance, and in that respect resembled extremely long focal-length reflectors not unlike telescope mirrors. What was ascertained was that a laser could be aimed from earth, reach the moon adequately collimated to access the reflector, and return through the atmosphere and be seen. I never meant to infer that this related directly to crop imaging from a much more advanced technology than that, from a source only 25,000 miles away, as opposed to the earth-moon round trip of 476,000 miles. The example was cited to demonstrate the length of time research has been going on. Essentially, CIRCLE.TXT explores the idea that masers/lasers/whatevers, of power outputs and collimating efficiencies using enhanced superconductive technologies not yet stated, are able to create artifactual images through a stencil, from a geosynchronous orbiter(s), much like a "cookie cutter." Bob There is 1 Reply. #: 45731 S7/Extraterrestrials? 01-Oct-91 01:07:11 Sb: #45727-CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: tom genereaux 76703,4265 (X) Tom, thanks for the generous addendum to your prior on EMP. (I got the reply, too). Most of the publicity on EMP I've seen had to do with gamma effects - to with a random cosmic ray momentarily zapping a logic gate in some bank's computer, resulting in a billing error. I know it's more general than that, and I appreciate the organization you offered. I was especially struck by your mention of other potential beam scenarios such as X-Ray and IR. I'd entertained the notion of the latter, but left it out of the discussion because of the many crop effects that occured while under the surveillance of thermographic sensors and light amplifiers. All that was seen was new circles in the morning. I'd have presumed that thermography would have shown an IR effect, though it may be a mistake to presume anything at this point. I was struck by your inference that gamma ray lasers have at least been pondered, and may be theoretically possible. I'll file that one. I'd also like to add what a pleasure it is getting credible information from one actively involved in related science. My late father (a ham, K6JW) was a senior scientist on Surveyor, at Hughes. He degugged the communications system, hired based on his invention of a pulse-modulated AM transmitter which reached (in 1957-8) the MARS station, KC4USA, at McMurdo Sound using 20 watts input to final, from Philadelphia. They didn't believe him, because his signal strength was below noise level, but his intelligibility was higher. I know what you mean about *old* news. When Surveyor landed, he shrugged, knowing Apollo was only a matter of time, and was already on his way to Mars. He was "on" Voyager, and made it out of the Solar System. Thanks again for the fascinating information. Bob #: 45732 S7/Extraterrestrials? 01-Oct-91 01:07:25 Sb: #45728-circle.txt Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) (contined) I'm presuming circular stencils, Jon. What makes pursuit of the "cookie cutter" thread so compelling - whatever the exact energy source - is the later, ever increasing appearance of not just circles, but circles connected by straight lined, in turn bisected at right angles, with parallel liner formations alongside: and all perfectly aligned with the natural furrows in the fields. Drift might not be detectable in rectilinear formations in the form of obvious distortion, as in a circle/ellipse effect. They also make a compelling argument for the stencil theory. In leafing through page after page of these things, one sees the compound structures with linear elelents starting to proliferate [not to mention the one called "the insect" which looks exactly like an Anasazi petroglyph (Arizona) I have in a Smithsonian catalogue of such things, printed in the 1870's]. But the most striking resmblance of the compound circle/line structures is their resemblance to *sighting reticules.* I understand that crop circle events are proliferating elsewehere in the world. It's interesting to speculate if the preliminary sighting, collimating, and power control systems done in Wiltshire have reached a point where it is now necessary to move on to other areas. If the mythology of Britain were the first cover, recent documentaries on UFO's in S.E. British airbases ("Unexplained Mysteries") which included active duty personnel - hitherto inconceivable - might not mean that the Military is priming a new confounder. "Give it to the UFOlogists now..." Bob #: 45733 S7/Extraterrestrials? 01-Oct-91 01:07:39 Sb: #45729-CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) (contined) Erik, I wanted to comment on the relative obscurity of the archeology of the Plains of Wiltshire. Albert Watkins work on the ley lines, from the 20's, and the more "academically accepted" work of such scientists as Alexander Thom, Gerald Hawkins, and others - are widely published and seriously studied here. Especially since the new respectability of "ArcheoAstronomy," and its adoption and accreditation by a number of pretty "straight" asronomers. Even the late nobel laureate, Richard Feynman was interested. There are hundreds of books in print on the subject. Just as "space travel" was relegated to the science fiction book shelves until Neil Armstrong made the discussion respectable by "doing it," so it was with the standing stones and circular mounds and more sophisticated structures such as Stonehenge, Men Antol, Maes Howe (Orkneys), Avebury, Glastonbury, and the demonstration (as opposed to theory), that alignments had geodetic and astronomical significance. In Chaco Canyon, Arizona, for example, these same researchers are now discovering the same functions in hitherto obscure structures and enigmatic petroglyphs. There is considerable interest. One can only imagine the effect in England itself, with writers such as Jon Michel and others popularizing the subject over the year - with Ley Line Societies debating in print... with a sub rosa national obsession over the truly fascinating reality of what has been in place for over 4000 years... What a fabulous cover! It makes the rules of evidence unmanageable. Bob #: 45751 S7/Extraterrestrials? 01-Oct-91 22:16:40 Sb: #circle.txt Fm: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312 To: 71251,2445 (X) Bob, My only point about the elliptical shape was that if you fire a circle the image is elliptical due to the angle of incidence and curvature of the earth. If the aspect and orientation were consistent, it would be a pretty strong piece of evidence for a stationary platform in space. Another aspect of the phenomenon to consider is how the stalks fall. Not only do they swirl both clockwise and counter, they also have been known to fall all in the same direction. In one circle, there was a small central swirl and the stalks in each quadrant fell in the same direction at right angles to those in adjacent quadrants. In still other cases, they all fell directly centrifugally. These and other idiosyncratic (for want of a better word) behaviors make SDI a less than viable hypothesis. Some have used the term conspiracy to characterize your conjecture. I don't see that has the right connotation for one or two governments testing weapons systems. That is what they are supposed to do. I love the mindset demonstrated by Erik when he suggested defense bureaucrats lack imagination and guts. Military Intelligence is not an oxymoron as the joke goes. Military types may have different goals than the average civilian type and use all sorts of means to gain them, and they would just as soon have you underestimate their abilities. It makes their job easier. Jon Brunson There are 3 Replies. #: 45753 S7/Extraterrestrials? 02-Oct-91 04:20:49 Sb: #45751-circle.txt Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312 There has been a fair amount of work done on the circles, hoping to explain them by freak weather conditions and so forth. In the published papers, the scientists say that the patterns could be formed by ionized cushions of air. In fact part of their problem was to figure out how even anomalous weather patterns could be configured to do the same thing that lasers would do in creating the cushions and the ionized atmosphere. The Japanese scientist who evidently did reproduce the strange patterns did so using a laser over (I forget which) metallic or semi-metallic substance. This is all talked about in circle.txt. What should be emphasized is that the lasers (if they exist) are not cutting the crops directly (as lasers are wont to do in movies about bank heists); they are ionizing the atmosphere, creating a "microclimate", and it is this that bends the stalks in a certain way according to the dynamics of the air pocket, that creates a sporadic light show, and brings reports of electromagnetic disturbances. #: 45754 S7/Extraterrestrials? 02-Oct-91 06:01:55 Sb: #45751-circle.txt Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312 Thanks for the clarification of your question regarding "elliptical," Jon. It actually makes an answer to the question simpler to state. If I were conducting what I believe to be preliminary refinements - targeting, stability, energy emission control, beam spread... I would feel silly (as I sort of do) for not having also factored in the curvature of the earth as a distorting element. Yes, that could certainly be a factor, except that it would be a radial effect, resulting in a slightly wider circle. Angle of incidence is another story, but I would hope that great effort would go into acheiving a perfect vertical. That still leaves drift, and not very much at that. I find it hard to imagine a stationary satellite at 25,000 miles which would be *perfectly* stationary, and all things considered, the degree of ellipticality (?) is small enough to suggest relatively great stability. The obvious way to achieve this is through the gyroscopic effects (precession- compensated) of rapid spin. It's admittedly a leap to the notion that the spinning beam (behind a contra-rotating stencil) might in some way cause the patterns of layover, but we are still after all, in the brainstorming stage and don't claim to have all the answers. I'm sure there are many secrets out there. I've also seen pictures of the really radical patterns you mention. I don't have the answer to all the specifics, but I don't think the remaining enigmas are enough to (yet) dismiss the overall scenarios. We have a superstructure that's conceivable. We may be a long way from dotting the "i"'s. From what I know of how secrets are kept, we all may be startled by the effects manifested by the technology itself. Conspiracy and underestimated abilities ahead. #: 45755 S7/Extraterrestrials? 02-Oct-91 06:02:11 Sb: #45751-circle.txt Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312 I think that the term "conspiracy" in this context is a _non sequitur_. I've been involved enough in serious research into assassination conspiracy to know that the term can be a red herring. With few exceptions I've found "lone assassin" conclusions to be manifestations of the collective denial of something that's "too bad to be true," and therefore processed by the brain into invisibility, to keep anxiety threshholds tenable. As the denial begins to weaken there is perceived a second conspiracy to conceal the first conspiracy, when in fact the second conspiracy is often the clinical denial of the first one, seen in retrospect. I find hope in that... Maybe truth is immortal after all. It just takes getting used to. "Conspiracy" connotes a clinical mindest suggestive of paranoia, always a convenience when needed. I agree, Jon, that the testing of weapons can require a great deal of coordination among the participants to hide the pattern produced if the elements are allowed to connect. The security structure of the Manhattan Project is a classic example. I also enjoyed Erik's citation of "imagination and guts." Whoever put this number together had to be amply endowed with both. I even see a sense of humor at work in the "Arizona petroglyph." So where does conspiracy end an symbiosis leave off. Take the lowly termite. Each termite is a conspiracy all its own, its G.I. tract being a safe house for a protozoa, complete with room and board. The termite grinds up the wood like a food processor so the protozoa (a dinoflagellate, I think) can ingest it, and the termite assimilates the nutrient wastes and byproducts that result. Top level Military and industrial security is something else. Bob. #: 45760 S7/Extraterrestrials? 02-Oct-91 18:26:44 Sb: CIRCLE.txt Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312 Joe, it was not my intention to take impugn any aspect of the military intelligence community. However, I see how my remark might have left such an impression. The point I was making was this; in order to give credence to the SDI theory being discussed here, one has to imbue SDI project managers with a combination of characteristics (knowledge of group psychology, history, a LARGE dose of chutzpah, just to name a few) that, to my knowledge (admittedly not comprehensive) have not been similarly demonstrated in other projects. Unless I missed it, I have yet to see any discussion regarding why all the circles are formed at night. Is it possible that sunlight interferes with the process, or does selection of Wiltshire as a proving ground require after dark testing in order to avoid the possibility that the cicrle formation will be directly witnessed? If the latter, then the selection of this location would certainly seem to impose a significant handicap to R&D activities unless you assume (rather unlikely I would think) that direct daylight observation of the process adds nothing significant to the testing. There is 1 Reply. #: 45795 S7/Extraterrestrials? 03-Oct-91 21:36:32 Sb: #45583-Crop circles Fm: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335 To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 I downloaded that file and I found it interesting. You're right -- there are a lot of ideas discussed there that don't show up elsewhere for some reason. #: 45798 S7/Extraterrestrials? 04-Oct-91 00:37:38 Sb: #45795-Crop circles Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 To: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335 I'm glad you read it. Really, the only thing that I'm trying to push is a search for the truth -- wherever that leads. I've no emotional investment in one solution over another -- or rather the one solution I'm wedded to is the >right< one. What was presented in that thread -- and what information has been garnered since that thread -- still suggest that the crop circles are, in large measure, the result of military/intelligence laser/maser testing from geosynchronous satellites in place over Britain. The presence of experts in allied fields is the reason for pushing the matter here. I hope others will take down the thread and read it through. #: 45823 S7/Extraterrestrials? 04-Oct-91 20:22:41 Sb: #CIRCLE.txt Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X) >>What was presented in that thread -- and what information has been garnered since that thread -- still suggest that the crop circles are, in large measure, the result of military/intelligence laser/maser testing from geosynchronous satellites in place over Britain.<< It strikes me that the evidence presented in CIRCLE.txt and subsequent discussions can, at best, be described as suggesting only that SDI testing is a theory that appears to address more aspects of the phenomena than ony other. Considering the wackiness of most of the other theories, that's not really saying much. Interesting for sure, but a whole lot of holes yet to be filled! There is 1 Reply. #: 45833 S7/Extraterrestrials? 05-Oct-91 03:58:42 Sb: #45823-CIRCLE.txt Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 Absolutely. It is only a suggestion. But I hear that the two men who confessed were asked point blank on a television interview if they had ever been employed by an intelligence organization, and they didn't give a straight answer. That, also, the "news organization" which controls them and their story doesn't not actually have a telephone number, and its only address is through its accounting firm. That the USDoD releases the information that it has been working with ground-to-air laser focussing systems since 1981. That for the first time the USDoD allowed members of the military to appear on camera to talk about UFOs, and actually played up the possibility that there are strange things happening in the skies over south-Eastern England. The announcement last week that the DoD was going to be putting its own smaller satellites into orbit, and not rely on NASA, which is too public and too unreliable. And so on. Such scattered notes fit and enhance one scenario, and they do not fit any other. It's a far too complicated matter for anyone to claim certainty. But I don't go back on my simple point: since the thread has ended, it has grown easier to accept this explanation, and only more difficult to accept any other. (And in any case, it's not half so tortured as what Astrophysicists are having to do to shore up red-shift as purely a cosmological factor, and directly and only related to distance.) #: 45837 S7/Extraterrestrials? 05-Oct-91 06:11:07 Sb: CIRCLE.txt Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 If you start with the assumption that all big secrets ultimately get leaked, (and the parameters of this one make it a great candidate for ultimate "leaking"), then the DoD is setting itself up for some bigtime embarrasment down the road. If they are smart enough to pull this off, they are certainly smart enough to recognize that it won't be a secret forever. How will they explain the duplicity? or are you suggesting that they really don't care? #: 45844 S7/Extraterrestrials? 05-Oct-91 07:59:08 Sb: CIRCLE.txt Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X) >>But I don't go back on my simple point: since the thread has ended, it has grown easier to accept this explanation, and only more difficult to accept any other.<< In reading my prior message I realized I didn't address this comment. Just wanted you to know that I agree totally with this statement. Unfortunately, the *competing* theories, being so relatively lightweight, provide a very poor benchmark against which to make comparisons. #: 45849 S7/Extraterrestrials? 05-Oct-91 10:11:27 Sb: CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576 (X) Erik, thanks for permission to send this private exchange we had when I responded to your #45760 to Jon Brunson regarding secrecy and day/night testing, and assorted items. Before I became a freelance writer in the entertainment industry (including credits in "Star Trek: Both Generations," and also a lot of Earth stuff) I worked in a division of RAND, in Santa Monica, as a Dept. Editor, and was very involved in who got to know what. The SDI stuff we're brainstorming would have been strictly Top Secret (I only held Secret), and on an ironclad "need-to-know" basis. Most of the people working on it would have no idea of the nature of the goal - only the component(s) in which they were involved - much like during the development of the A- bomb. Project Managers wouldn't have come under this category. SDI may be among the most sensitive projects since then, if it is in fact a disinforming title. The group psychology and history could very well have come from a Think Tank such as RAND, the product of a very few specialists under NSA level security. That's heavy duty *tight.* The chutzpah was in the funding of it, as it was publicly described as something which couldn't work. And now, in Bush's latest speeches on disarmament, he openly speaks of rediverting some of the newly freed funds to SDI. That is clearly chutzpah. There are other, even more cockamamey projects that must have required even more of the same in the selling. Anyway, on to night/day testing. #: 45852 S7/Extraterrestrials? 05-Oct-91 10:21:21 Sb: #CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) You noted something which hasn't been discussed and should have been - the day versus night testing. Accuracy over the 25,000 mile distance we're talking about would be unpredictable altered by a daytime sky - if only by the gravitational effects of the sun in bending light and other radiations - the demonstration of which was one of the early supports for Relativity. Another argument for night testing is the diminished chance of a field being occupied at the time of exposure. Another is that if laser-dot hot spots are used for sighting and alignment, these would be much more effective at night. Yet another is that R&D would be concerned mainly with the effect, not the process. Night would give cover for an effect that may take hours to complete. It would also make the recording of sonic effects easier. And, a big unknown is the time lag between exposure and effect, if any. As for R&D activities in general, I think we can presume that the formation process itself would have been thoroughly studied in smaller scales, as indicated by the various experiments cited my Michael McDowell in other messages. Your questions were good ones. Bob #: 45853 S7/Extraterrestrials? 05-Oct-91 10:21:36 Sb: CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) Bob, your exposure to the people involved in these types of projects clearly gives your opinion some credibility regarding their capability to both invent and successfully execute something this remarkable. I can only defer to your judgement in that regard. Yet.......10 years is an awfully long time for our government to keep anything truly secret. Especially something that would have so many of its participants quietly smirking at the great joke they were playing on the world press. You have have referred to the Manhattan Project several times and I am aware of the remarkable secrecy that was enforced. But times have changed dramatically since then and I suspect that similar efforts today would be considerably less successful. >>Accuracy over the 25,000 mile distance we're talking about would be unpredictably altered by a daytime sky - if only by the gravitational effects of the sun in bending light and other radiations<< Some of your other speculations for night circle formations are persuasive, but this one needs a little more support. For instance, it suggests that all the crop circles are formed only when the satellite is in the earth's shadow. I don't know what period of time a geosynchronous satellite would be in the earth's shadow, but if this is a requirement for accuracy, the project has a *long* way to go before it results in any significant defensive capability. Same is true if the process takes hours to complete. Why spend millions putting up a space weapon platform that, after 10 years of testing, requires hours to achieve the desired effect? Seems to me that we wouldn't put it up until we had largely overcome that difficulty. #: 45854 S7/Extraterrestrials? 05-Oct-91 10:21:41 Sb: #CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) An additional issue I have yet to see addressed by this theory is the obvious problem of what becomes of the testing program when the "crop season" ends in Wiltshire. Just call it a day and wait for next spring? Obviously not, yet no one (at least none that I can recall) has put forth a theory as to what testing alternatives go into effect in the fall and winter. Your thoughts? #: 45859 S7/Extraterrestrials? 05-Oct-91 12:00:33 Sb: CIRCLE.EXE Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576 (X) Erik, I clearly have a lot to learn about the /split commnad... This is in response to # 45853-4, your response to my # 45851-2 (whatever the headers say.) They started out private. Sorry about the chaos. I think I'm being read as suggesting a much more developed stage of technology than we have actually reached. If my theory is correct, I think that what we're seeing is the very early stages of developing of something that may not mature until the next century. Michael McDowell has cited some of the experiments on laboratory scale, and I see geosynchronous orbiter tests as a natural next step. I think we're seeing the refinement of fundamental techniques, not fully developed systems. I see fine tuning of prototype technology, collimating methods, focussing - and even learning to compensate for natural effects (such as gravity bending and surface sphericity) at low levels of energy compared to what it might lead to. I also see a natural evolution of the application of known technologies to defense systems (hopefully) and other applications. In my own mind what I'm doing is extrapolating that which already exists and amplifying it forward in time. The smart bombs demonstrated in Iraq were certainly mind-blowers, given the relatively primitive toys which the previous generation of guided missiles used - which was awesome when it appeared. Nothing has been put forth here based on a technology which doesn't in fact already exist. We have put not millions, but billions into it, and if we can make complex patterns in a field from a sattelite, 10 years is a few minutes, having started with simple lab experiments. #: 45860 S7/Extraterrestrials? 05-Oct-91 12:00:46 Sb: #CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576 (X) So what I'm saying is essentially in agreement with you, Eric. It does indeed have a long way to go, but the signs exist to anticipate what's coming. As to the completion time of the process, I suspect that the actual exposure time is quite short. I have no idea how long the effect takes to become completed. Given the normal exponential acceleration of development of such things as we're imagining (literally, I'm sure many believe) we only have a glimmer of the possibilities. If there is a geosynchronous sattelite over England, I'd be surprised if it was more than an early prototype of a technology that may not even have a name yet. The question in your last, "what happens when the crop season ends in England," is, according to the latest reports, answering itself. There has been a tremendous proliferation of clustered events in other parts of the world - including Japanese rice fields. I don't know when they harvest rice, but it's happening. And as was noted in some priors, we're being handed Air Force UFO stories now, as though the Metaphysical cover is about to be handed to the UFOlogists, so that other sites can be visited openly. Given the proliferation of other current sites, I'd say the testing alternatives for fall and winter are already being tuned up, if not operating. Bob There is 1 Reply. #: 45884 S7/Extraterrestrials? 06-Oct-91 02:41:05 Sb: #45837-#CIRCLE.txt Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X) I don't start with the assumption that all big secrets ultimately get leaked. Or, rather, even if they do, the truth is not always universally accepted. In general, the higher you go in any chain of command, whether in corporate America, the White House, the Military, Hollywood studios, or the Boy Scouts of America -- decisions can be (and very often are) made for trivial reasons, that usually have to do with personal ego, and rarely with the ultimate good of an organization. It's only rarely possible to trace these things back. Which is to say, I don't know why the military, or intelligence, or whatever is working the way they are (if indeed they are involved at all in the crop circles). I can imagine, however, that allowing the UFO incident in the early 80s in se England to have the participation of military personnel was an attempt to confuse the crop circle business even further. (The show also included mock-ups of purported ships, and the light effects were suggested; it is possible that these were deliberately slanted away from the actual effects, a case of image disinformation.) By the way, I do not consider the above evidence of anything. But if the military do have somewhat to do with the crop circles, then the above makes sense of an abrupt and apparently unique departure of practice by the military. I like theories which explain other phenomena, more than I like theories that have to be altered in order to fit other phenomena. There is 1 Reply. #: 45885 S7/Extraterrestrials? 06-Oct-91 02:47:01 Sb: #45854-#CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) I read that the two gentlemen who confessed to the crop circles, tried to produce another in daylight and before witnesses. But its quality was distinctly below par. They blamed this on the fact that it was so near to harvest. There is 1 Reply. #: 45886 S7/Extraterrestrials? 06-Oct-91 03:03:40 Sb: #45852-#CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) Bob: Maybe you or someone else here can look at the 12 Sept 91 issue of Nature, and see if the discussions there bear more than the obvious relevance to what we're talking about. There's even a photograph (oddly fake-looking) of a laser beaming up to a point in the atmosphere. They discuss making pin-point of light at heights of 1 K, and then also at 80-100K. The News and Views article talks about the secret military testing of laser optics through the atmosphere, which was only partially de-classified a few months ago. The two articles themselves give detailed explanations of experiments partially based on the military work as applied to telescopes. I don't have the knowledge to figure this out. Primmerman et al.'s work was supported by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, the Strategic Defense Initiative Organization and the Army Strategic Defense Command. The Lincoln Lab (MIT) scientists worked out of the Mt Haleakala telescope and beam director on Maui. #: 45887 S7/Extraterrestrials? 06-Oct-91 06:15:10 Sb: #45886-CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X) Thanks for the tip on the Nature article, Michael. Among the times that try persons' souls is when they let the wrong subscription lapse. Like, I need Conde Nast right now. The reason for the classification of military laser/telescope technology may have been due to its use in the Stealth fighter in hot-spotting Cruise missile targets. With current disclosures about the Stealth's (relatively) high visibility to "pulsed" low frequency radar. There may be a need to loosen "need-to-know" (the usual reason for diminished classification) to preserve or increase funding in that specific area. On the other hand... The telescope research is especially intriguing, as the curvature of the mirror (presuming reflectors) must be a super-precise parabola (as opposed to circle or ellipse) to focus all the visible wavelengths to a white spot. As a childhood amateur telescope maker, I remember the anguish of chromatic abberation if it wasn't just right. When you start talking about the ranges you describe, and the funding agencies, It's certainly suggestive - not of answers so much as new questions. I'll follow up on the references. Thanks. Bob #: 45888 S7/Extraterrestrials? 06-Oct-91 06:15:17 Sb: #45885-CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X) Michael, has anybody yet tried faking one of the straight line formations connecting circles, complete with parallel, unconnected bars, (the ones that look so much like sighting reticules) without leaving a trace of their traverse to or from the sight? Do they use stilts, or what? I once had a Chevvie that cornered like stilts... In all fairness, I'm sure some of the formations are fakes... Uh, I wonder how one fakes a circle in a rice paddy. They're in the Orient, now. Bob #: 45889 S7/Extraterrestrials? 06-Oct-91 07:21:37 Sb: #45884-#CIRCLE.txt Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X) Michael, I cannot take issue with anything you said. The recent willingness of the military establishment to participate in UFO discussions is indeed a curious turn of events. In any event, if the military is responsible for crop circle formation, some person or group of people is coordinating the various aspects of the program. Can you or Bob cite any historical precedent for a military disinformation campaign (in modern history) that reached so deeply into pop culture? Is it possible that the dimensions of this campaign are so wide as to overreach itself and thus guarantee that people such as yourself will take note and try to strip the covers off? There is 1 Reply. #: 45890 S7/Extraterrestrials? 06-Oct-91 07:21:48 Sb: #45860-#CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) >>If there is a geosynchronous sattelite over England, I'd be surprised if it was more than an early prototype of a technology that may not even have a name yet.<< Bob, would seem that under the discussed scenario the question is not "if" but "how many". Unless geosynchronous satellites have a helluva lot more maneuverability than I ever expected. Where is/are it/they? Over Britain, Japan, Australia? And assuming your explanation to be correct, that's great for this year if the other sightings do turn out to be legit. But what about prior years when the whole phenomena evaporated at the end of September? Please don't misinterpret my queries as anything more than an effort to facilitate the fleshing out of a theory that remains the best explanation I've yet heard for the origin of crop circles. So far you are doing a splendid job. There is 1 Reply. #: 45920 S7/Extraterrestrials? 06-Oct-91 16:52:57 Sb: #45889-CIRCLE.txt Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X) Any historical precedent? A disinformation campaign about the dangers of nuclear radiation. It continues today. Nobody's dying, nobody died. Nobody's sick, nobody ever got sick except a little nausea. And, I also remember, a few years in there when we were not bombing Laos, and no planes were flying over Cambodia, and even today, the CIA still doesn't get any money from poppies in the poppy fields of those beleaguered lands. I believe there are still a few Big Deals that we don't know about Vietnam, mostly the getting-in part -- and if I'm right, there's a second fiction the military has maintained for over ten years. #: 45949 S7/Extraterrestrials? 07-Oct-91 06:46:16 Sb: #45890-#CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 Eric, your queries are terrific! The whole purpose of this is to literally brainstorm the Q's and A's from different perspectives, that will fill in a "most credible possible scenario." I was very pleased by your compliment, and thank you for it. If I'm giving good answers, it's because I'm getting quality questions. The question, having come this far with the line of inquiry, is indeed *how many,* and not *if.* I hope I can get the /split command right, because I need to lay out some stuff about geosynchronous sattelites. If you already know the fundamentals, forgive me, but other readers may not know. A geosynchronous sattelite is one that maintains a fixed position over a point on the earth. It does this by maintaining an altitude high enough so that orbital velocity is the same as the speed of the rotation of the earth below it - the required altitude is about 25,000 miles. They can be launched as the payload of a conventional booster, or deployed from a Shuttle - the super-secret missions of which date back to around the time Wiltshire began having its "experience." One is simply released from the cargo bay, and propelled upward to synchronous altitude with it's own propulsion system. If payload requirements allow the necessary systems and fuel, they can also be retrieved by lowering them with ground control commands to a decaying orbit, followed by a rendezvous with a Shuttle, which can retrieve it, bring it home, repair it, refuel it, even redeploy it. (The Hubble Telescope is due for a repair, when "other priorities" are out of the way.) (Networking and other stuff follows) [More] #: 45950 S7/Extraterrestrials? 07-Oct-91 06:46:29 Sb: #45949-CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) [Continued] The first geosynchronous satellites (GS's for short) were Intelligence gatherers, but at the turn of the '80's became better known for their "sattelite weather pictures" on the TV news. Before pilots could get the pictures directly, they used to watch the 6:00 A.M. CNN news for them. It was more informative than a weather briefing. More and more GS's got deployed, and now the earth is pretty well covered. There was a bad hole in the coverage, until recently, when one of the Pacific GS's went out. More recently, a network of them was deployed to furnish global navigation servcices to ships at sea, and aircraft, and is performing superbly. Another was recently deployed as a communication link for Shuttles, to relay communications when the Shuttle was out of range of a ground station. Always a dangerous time. So, "how many" is a given. I don't know how many in close proximity it requires to "do a Wiltshire," but clusters would be simple. And yes, they have considerable local maneuverability. Using on board thrusters, small changes in altitude would result in lateral movement, aided by directional thrusters. If we could control a soft lunar lander (Surveyor, on which my father was a Senior Scientist) in the early '60's, precisely maneuvering a GS at a fraction of that distance is no big deal. I would presume that the number has proliferated considerably, and that the ones were talking about are networked. (I'll be back in a few minutes with an interesting reference from the original upload, CIRCLE.TXT...) Bob #: 45952 S7/Extraterrestrials? 07-Oct-91 07:23:13 Sb: CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576 Eric, following up on my prior about sattelite positioning, I went to extract something that Michael McDowell had contributed to CIRCLE.TXT, in his message #888 therein. We had been discussing what was controversial, in England, of the disposition of Castle Herstmonceaux, a prior site of the Royal Greenwich Observatory. It's in the area of crop circle activity. Countering a bit of disinformation that the telescopes there were no longer in use, a correspondent Englishman on CompuServe wrote: "The Satellite Laser Ranger scope at Herstmonceaux is still used by the RGO [Royal Greenwich Observatory] for measuring orbits of artificial sattelites, for measuring precise earth-rotation parameters..." Michael also noted in that message, since confirmed, that in the 1991 season crop circles have spread across Europe, with "notable formations appearing in Sweden, near Wiesbaden and near Cologne in Germany, in the Netherlands, in Italy, in Bulgaria, In Yugoslavia, and in Siberia. About three dozen have been formed in Japan." Bob There is 1 Reply. #: 45953 S7/Extraterrestrials? 07-Oct-91 08:24:21 Sb: #45920-#CIRCLE.txt Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 Michael, I wanted to add a bit to the list of disinformation campains, though in some cases the disinformation was intended not for the pop culture, but for its elected leaders. (I also want to apologize for ripping off your stuff about Castle Herstmonceaux in a prior to eric, and signing my name twice on something. At least I've mastered /split.) Since Lincoln's time, with the help of General McClellan's private secret service under Alan Pinkerton, disinformation of presidents in service to the private agendas of other power bases and, sometimes, commercial interests has been routine. More recently, it was done to Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Carter, and Reagan. Bush's roots speak for themselves. Without turning this political and coming off as the flaming radical which I am not, the Eisenhower disinformation left a legacy which still lives, and it all turns on a word, and a suitable beginning is Iran. Early in the McCarthy period, one did not challenge the use of the word "communism" in expressing something to shoot at. I know in the '50's, I didn't. Given the Korean War, Hungary, and all the rest, one could be very anti-communist and be a flaming liberal in domestic affairs, all at the same time. That pretty well describes me, nobody could be more pleased at the recent turns in world politics viz a viz democratization than me. That unequivocally said, when Mossadegh tried to nationalize Iran's oil,('50's) Eisenhower was persuaded this was communism in action, and the CIA got its first shot at deposing heads of state. We installed the Shah and trained his secret police, the Sadak. It gets better... [More] There is 1 Reply. #: 45954 S7/Extraterrestrials? 07-Oct-91 08:24:35 Sb: #45953-CIRCLE.txt Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) [Continued] This was soon followed by the news that Arbenz, the leftist president of Guatemala, was going to nationalize the agronomy. The CIA went in and he was history. Another communist down the tubes. Then along comes Castro to make a deal with us - in which his nationalization of the United Fruit Co. was the deal breaker that opened the Cuban door to Russia. At the time we were paying for sugar at a rate determined by a 1903 treaty, and United Fruit had a total monopoly. Castro started in the Sierra Maestra of Oriente province because the Fruit Co. owned *two thirds* of the province outright, and he knew recruitment would be easy. What the pop culture didn't know was that among the chief attorneys, members of the board, a chairman of the board, and the principal stockholders were John Foster Dulles (Sec. of State), his brother Allen (head of CIA), Senator Henry Cabot Lodge (whose father shot down the League of Nations), Walter Bedell Smith, A couple of other Cabots and Lodges, and three Latin American ambassadors, one of whom didn't speak Spanish. So it was never about ideology, it was about money, and we bought military dictatorships to protect it. This legacy, as well as the Iranian void left by the inevitable revolt against the Shah, filled by the fundamentalists, still lives. So does the disinformation of Johnson about the Gulf of Tonkin, etc. It pervades us by the twisting of labels. STAR Wars being really EARTH wars. Old hat. The Intelligence Agencies even disinform each other in their turf wars. Anyway, back to Wiltshire! Bob #: 45989 S7/Extraterrestrials? 07-Oct-91 22:08:57 Sb: #45798-#Crop circles Fm: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335 To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X) Hmmmmm..... I just had a particularly bad idea.... Have you heard about the mysterious deaths of technicians and engineers in England in the past few years? Could there be a connection? It's been suggested for a long time that they're related to a MJ-12 sort of conspiracy, but maybe they could be related to terrestrial defense research instead. There is 1 Reply. #: 45990 S7/Extraterrestrials? 07-Oct-91 23:14:35 Sb: #45989-Crop circles Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 To: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335 I do know of the deaths. I had not connected them with the crop circles, and I think I still don't. There was, or is, a faltering attempt to connect each of the scientists to UFO research, but I've not even seen a list of names of these engineers and technicians. If the deaths are related, the timing -- well before the circles business had begun to escalate -- is off. I also believe that agents of the British or the U.S. government would dispose of dangerous elements in some way that was less conspicuous than leaving a corpse tied to a table at the bottom of a lake. Of course this makes me wonder if the claim is true that all these deaths have been ruled suicides... This is one of those mysteries which, to me, doesn't fit in with the CIRCLES hypothesis. I'd love to see more facts, however, for the business is talked about in rather a mythologizing way; where it's only helpful if somebody hauls out lists and tables and clippings. It would be helpful, in fact, to dispose of the deaths as a related phenomenon. CIRCLES isn't going to be telling us what became of Charlie Ross, and things only get confusing if we try to gather in too much. I had been reluctant to suggest Herstmonceaux, but now I'm glad I did. So if anyone knows enough to shoot this down, or shore it up, tell all. #: 46006 S7/Extraterrestrials? 08-Oct-91 17:33:00 Sb: CIRCLE.txt Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 Michael, your message #45833 suggested that the two men who confessed to the crop circle hoax acted in a manner afterwards that suggested they were perhaps the unwitting dupes of the DoD. If true it would suggest a remarkable dichotomy in the level of sophistication between the technical end of the project and the disinformation campaign intended to keep it secret. The enlistment of those two bumpkins by some shady arm of the intelligence community reflects a level of amateurish clumsiness that makes one wonder how the project could possibly have remained secret this long. It seems totally out of character with the level of sophistication that this thread has assumed is at work. In the same message you comment on the USDoD recent release of info relative to ground-to-air laser focussing systems. Your comment suggests such releases of info is unusual. I don't know what specific info you are referring to, but as a long-term subscriber to Aviation Week, I see new SDI articles on a weekly basis. That's not why I subscribe so I generally don't read those particular articles in detail but, on a weekly basis, they are reporting on particle beam technology, space-based lasers, railgun technology, etc. So, my question is this: what specific news has *recently* come out of the defense establishment that adds something new to the debate about crop circles? #: 46007 S7/Extraterrestrials? 08-Oct-91 17:33:10 Sb: CIRCLES.txt Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 Any historical precedent? You cite 2 historical precedents for the existence of large- scale disinformation campaigns sponsored by the defense community. Even making the large assumption that they exist as you believe them to, they are fairly small-scale and narrowly focused productions in comparison to what this thread is postulating. They were (are?) essentially little more than passive "stonewalling" tactics to hide either a mistake (fallout) or a politically embarrasing breach of international protocol(Cambodia). Neither would seem to provide strong evidence that the necessary mindset exists to conceive and execute a disinformation campaign of the scale that this thread addresses. #: 46008 S7/Extraterrestrials? 08-Oct-91 17:33:30 Sb: #CIRCLES.txt Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) To catch up on several points in your recent postings: There are some aspects to the geosynchronous satellite discussion that seem to me to require further refinement. Firstly, such satellites would be a poor selection as a weapons testing platform for any program that wants to remain secret. Their deployment is eminently trackable if only because of the long rocket firing necessary to get them to the extremely high altitude necessary for a geosynchronous orbit. I find the concept of a "stealthy" geosynchronous satellite to be fairly remote. So, it's ability to sit over UK for years and remain undiscovered while performing nightly test firings just seems a little farfetched. (No one has yet mentioned the necessity for the "beams" to contain large amounts of energy but emit almost no visible light!) Secondly, the issue of what happens when the crop circle "season" ends has not been adequately addressed. You speculated that a multitude of geosynchronous satellites are in orbit. Why put up more than one (much less establish a network) if it does no more than replicate the same testing over a different area? Geosynchronous satellites are incredibly expensive due to the expense associated with getting them into a 25,000 mile orbit. Putting up more than one simply to perpetuate a disinformation campaign is a stretch. Only a second generation testbed could possibly justify that expense, and there is no evidence yet discussed of any large breakthroughs in what these presumed satellites are capable of doing. Why select a location (Wiltshire) which provides only a seasonal testing ground? The marginal maneuverability of a geosynchronous satellite precludes any serious likelihood that the one speculated to be over Britain could be rapidly moved into place over Australia or Japan. We have great fuel limitations in [continued in the reply] There is 1 Reply. #: 46009 S7/Extraterrestrials? 08-Oct-91 17:33:47 Sb: #46008-CIRCLES.txt Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X) [continued] merely adjusting our current NOAA satellites to give proper Atlantic Ocean coverage, let alone shifting them back and forth on an intercontinental basis. Again, maybe 1991 will be the year that the phenomena continues after the crop season ends in Wiltshire. But what explains the absence of fall and winter activity in prior years? Thirdly, Michael noted the spread of crop circles to Sweden, Italy, et al. Can you or Michael please reference the source of this info. My ENS clipping folders haven't picked up any such stories nor are any stories found in an online search of UK newspapers as late as this afternoon. Fourthly, your ruminations on the subject of cold war disinformation campaigns are food for thought but they address the crop circle phenomena in a tangential manner at best. The interpretation of recent geopolitical events is a topic on which you will never achieve any meaningful consensus. (Spend some time in the Issues forum if you want daily evidence of that!) Hence, butressing your crop circle/SDI theory through their utilization probably does more to muddy the water than clarify. It also provides opportunities for readers who disagree with your perceived political bent to question the credibility of all your prior postings. Both you and Michael have referred to past disinformation campaigns and those comments have been informative. But neither of you has mentioned any campaign focused solely on a weapons development issue that is a true analog to the subject of this thread. Sorry to be so long-winded here. Once I got going more and more questions came to mind. PS: I may be misinformed (certainly wouldn't be the first time), but I don't think Hubble is geosynchronous. #: 46020 S7/Extraterrestrials? 08-Oct-91 22:04:57 Sb: #46019-CIRCLES.txt Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576 I remeber noting one example of weapons system disinformation, the Manhattan Project, but that was dismissed as being out of date. In fact it's not. I have an extensive collection of antique newspapers, starting with the war between Charley Two and Cromwell in 1642, and on through the 1980's, an a lot of stuff from WWII. Many weapons system that took years to develop weren't known of until they'd been successfully tested. Likewise nuclear subs, missiles we still haven't been told exist, it goes on and on. If I could give you a more recent campaign of this magnitude (which the others are not) I'd be on "60 Minutes" and not here. You're asking for data I have no way of having. I too read Aviation Week, and it also disinforms on occasion. That's how they get away with printing the classified stuff they do. One hand feeds the other. There's other stuff to read, too. As to the other events for which you requested documentation, I carefully put in quotes the statement, (I hope, and if I didn't please insert them) that it was a response from an English correspondent. I included them because I had seen the same places mentioned (on a smaller scale) in the foreign press, and discussed on short wave commercial radio from other parts of the world, to which I listen regularly. Crop circles are a global item. The other point you addressed was the "visibility" of high energy beams at night. Too many meteorological variables keep this from being arguable - not to mention Tom Genereaux's mention of other energy forms than optical or microwave which might be involved. I wish I knew.. Bob #: 46021 S7/Extraterrestrials? 08-Oct-91 22:38:31 Sb: #45990-Crop circles Fm: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335 To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X) I haven't seen a list of names either, but there's supposedly one at the back of Sydney Sheldon's new novel "The Doomsday Conspiracy", which just happens to be about silencing the witnesses to a UFO crash. (It seems Sheldon is cashing in on the UFO craze. Except for the list of names, though, I don't think it's an attempt at "fiction based on the truth" like STrieber's "Roswell" and the very controversial books by W. A. Harbinson. For one thing, the crash takes place in Switzerland (never heard of one there) and for another, the aliens are benevolent.) #: 46028 S7/Extraterrestrials? 09-Oct-91 05:09:22 Sb: #46019-CIRCLES.txt Fm: Frank Hentschel 75126,72 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 HST's orbit is nowhere near geosyncronous (mean altitude ~600 km, period 97 minutes). -fjh #: 46033 S7/Extraterrestrials? 09-Oct-91 07:53:56 Sb: #46028-CIRCLES.txt Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Frank Hentschel 75126,72 Thanks for the information, Frank. It corrects a general misconception held here about its whereabouts. Would you happen to know if that was its originally intended operational orbit, or a holding orbit pending the scheduled 1993 repair mission? Would you also happen to know how its stabilized on a celestial target, given that 97 minute period? I'd be very grateful for any information you might have about it. The people at JPL gave the impression that it was quite maneuverable, and they originally wanted it higher than that. Bob #: 92349 S14/News/Current Events 12-Oct-91 01:02:09 Sb: #92338-CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 Michael, I thought you and Sheldon Cohen might enjoy the following update, extracted from a CIS letter I received last night. The correspondent is a resident of Wiltshire, the site of the most publicized sitings, and is actively engaged in the research. It refers to a crop event near Barbury Castle, in August of this year, one of the most spectacular to date. "... The farmer in whose field it formed in the second week of August has offered a reward of twenty thousand pounds to anyone who can replicate it, the downside is that if you cannot you pay him ten thousand pounds for damage to his wheat field; so far there have been no takers. The two characters, Doug & Dave, who claimed to be the authors of all the formations have not taken up this offer and are now being prosecuted by the farmers Union for damage to crops much to everyone's amusement !" I guess Time Magazine missed something... Bob #: 46142 S7/Extraterrestrials? 11-Oct-91 17:56:34 Sb: #46019-CIRCLES.txt Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) Bob, glad to see your posting in the Astronomy forum. Maybe we'll get some contributions from folks with the technical expertise to address some of the issues that have been raised. Reason I was browsing in that forum was that I had earlier requested their expertise regarding the possibility of recovering GS satellites. I posted a question asking anyone if they were aware of a GS satellite ever being recovered after insertion into GS orbit. Response follows: Message: #92245, S/3 Satellite Observing Date: Thu, Oct 10, 1991 4:57:09 AM Subject: #92199-GS satellites From: Tony Beresford 72726,3245 To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (deletable) No Eric, nobody has the OOMPH to send a manned capsule into Clarke orbit. Certainly not the US. And although the CIA and NSA people dont always speak up about what they know the russians are doing , I think launching Soyuz capsules to geostationary orbit with Energia would be obvious anyway. Bob, I haven't forgotten your last message. Am still mulling it over. -Erik- #: 92264 S3/Satellite Observing 10-Oct-91 15:47:56 Sb: #92245-GS satellites Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: Tony Beresford 72726,3245 (X) Tony, you confirmed what I already suspected. Thanks! #: 92351 S3/Satellite Observing 12-Oct-91 02:02:51 Sb: #92264-GS satellites Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 Erik, I'm pleased the discussion has departed the E.T. section of SPACE and finally found it's way here. There is also discussion on ASTRO/News/ Current Events. When I suggested the possibility of geosynchronous satellite (GS) retrieval, I never envisioned sending the Shuttle into Clarke orbit, but rather bringing the GS down. I understand from an unclassified source at JPL that this is possible. I hope Tony Beresford or someone who believes differently will comment. Since geosynchronicity is a matching of GS period to the rotation of the earth - this being altitude dependent - the scenario with which I was presented involved "goosing" the GS downward into a controllable decaying orbit, and rendezvousing a Shuttle with it at a lower altitude - on the order of 600-800 km. I'm informed that Hubble is at 600 km., 97 min. period, for just that purpose. Payload accommodation for fuel, thrusters, and control systems might be considerable to enable recoverability, but as I understand it this capability (or its development) is part of the program and has been for some time. If it's been done, nobody's talking. Corrections are welcome. This isn't about being right, but rather finding out what is. Bob #: 92355 S3/Satellite Observing 12-Oct-91 06:31:40 Sb: #92348-GS satellites Fm: John McDonnell 73437,3202 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 It is certainly possible to build-in retrieval capability for a GEO satellite; there simply isn't generally a need. For example, a geosynchronous communications satellite which has worn out generally isn't worth fixing anyway (i.e. not worth the cost, loss of payload, etc.) #: 92374 S3/Satellite Observing 12-Oct-91 21:39:13 Sb: #92348-GS satellites Fm: Tony Beresford 72726,3245 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 I rather think the required payload of rocket would reduce useful payload to a very small amount. Consider that the scenario you are suggesting is equivalent to the velocity increment given by the third stage and the circularising burn to get to Clarke Orbit. An ion motor solution seems most reasonable but there are no flight ready electric propulsion systems in use. #: 92386 S3/Satellite Observing 13-Oct-91 00:52:27 Sb: #92355-GS satellites Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: John McDonnell 73437,3202 Thanks for the response, John. The origin of the inquiry related to the thread concerning a "special circumstance" scenario. This is laid out in the CIRCLE.TXT thread, which speculates (among other things) that the "crop events" in Wiltshire, England, and elsewhere, are (among other things) the artifacts of preliminary SDI experiments employing laser/maser/other technology originating in GEO satellites over the affected sites. As opposed to a comsat, landsat, navigational device, or weather satellite, a need for retrievability and redeployment can be envisioned. Answer we needed was whether it could be done at all. If it is SDI under a brilliant cover (the obfuscating nature of the site), and under an inverted title (Earth as opposed to Star), many puzzles fall into place. Also, budget becomes unlimited, and the only remaining question on the particular point becomes conceivability of the concept of GEO access. Thanks again. Bob #: 46157 S7/Extraterrestrials? 12-Oct-91 00:25:06 Sb: #46142-CIRCLES.txt Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 Thanks for redirecting me, Erik. It's much appreciated. I responded to your exchange with Tony Beresford over on ASTRO/SATTELITE OBSERVING. I'm grateful to you for the referral. For thread readers here, those are the places to look for continued activity. So as not to leave anyone hanging, my query about retrieving GS's was in the context of goosing the GS down to a lower orbit, not sending the Shuttle up to get it. See you on ASTRO. Bob #: 46158 S7/Extraterrestrials? 12-Oct-91 00:25:11 Sb: #46142-CIRCLES.txt Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 Almost forgot... re that last message you're mulling over, I'll look for a response here, or the thread might get scattered all over the place. Thanks again for keeping me current as to where the action is. Bob #: 92651 S3/Satellite Observing 18-Oct-91 19:15:30 Sb: CIRCLE.txt Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 Bob, got a little distracted with political events the past week. Talk about a conspiracy! Anyway, I've enjoyed our past discussions of crop circles as possible artifacts of SDI testing. The Fox television network aired a special program tonite entitled "The UFO Report: Sightings". It contained a segment on crop circles. Not surprisingly, it focused on them as almost certainly related to UFO activity. The best part was some great aerial photos of the more recent "pictogram" formations. I'm not sure why, but those dramatic photos never fail to get the juices running! Seldom does an unexplained phenomena display itself in such a flagrant "I dare you to figure me out" manner. The failure of the Fox show to make any reference to the possible high-tech human origins of crop circles just gives me more confidence that SDI testing is the most likely explanation. Why look for extraterrestrial explanations when much more prosaic explanations remain to be investigated? I confess that I remain highly skeptical that GS satellites are involved. Also, some aspects of the alleged disinformation campaign that we previously discussed strike me as fairly remote. However, your prior comment that noted the crop circle patterns resemblance to sighting/aiming reticules strikes me as the single most insightful observation yet made regarding their possible origin. The aforementioned Fox show also claimed that circles were showing up in Japan, Canada and elsewhere. Sure wish I could get some "hard" news to confirm those claims. The spread of genuine "Wiltshire type" circles to other parts of the globe would be a fascinating development. #: 92262 S14/News/Current Events 10-Oct-91 11:54:20 Sb: #92250-CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Sheldon Cohen, TN 72140,327 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 According to Time magazine a week or two ago, the crop circles were created by two British hoaxsters who finally came forward. Their biggest problem weas that for a long time no one noticed their circles. #: 92305 S14/News/Current Events 11-Oct-91 06:40:56 Sb: #92262-#CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Sheldon Cohen, TN 72140,327 Sheldon, there's little doubt that some of the "crop events" are the product of hoaxers. To look at quality photographs of the simultaneous events in the publications referenced in circle.txt, consider the 11 year history of increasing sophistication and size and simultanaeity of immense formations, the hoaxers from last week's "Time" are history even in Britain. Over the past year 20/20 did two serious pieces on these events, and Hugh Downs is one of the world's great skeptics. I call them events because most of them are far too full of linear componenents - some of them connecting the circles, complete with mid line perpendiculars and bisections, all aligned with the crop furrows already in the fields - to be called "circles." Many look more like target reticules projected through a stencil, others are immense replicas of archeological patterns already on site with a 5000 year old history. Presuming a laser/maser/other coherent beam with a projected diameter of a fraction of a centimeter, through a stencil, a beam spread of the hundreds of yards which charactarize these "cookie cutouts" is not inconsistent with an origin from the 25000 mile altitude of a geosynchronous orbiter. Hoaxers account for some, not all, and we're not about UFO's, unless they're of human manufacture. This is a very real, underpubicized mystery which has been under study by serious scientists for years. Circle.txt referenced again in the following, will be a surprise to many. #: 92338 S14/News/Current Events 11-Oct-91 20:21:01 Sb: #92262-CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 To: Sheldon Cohen, TN 72140,327 (X) They have been unable to reproduce their work by daylight, however, and with witnesses. They were sponsored by a "news agency" which does not have a telephone, its only address is c/o an up-scale accounting firm, and it has apparently no other clients and no other stories. This is covered in the CIRCLE.TXT, to some extent. The incidence of crop circles would have required these two men, in their sixties, to create two or three circles a night every night for the entire length of the English growing season. When they were asked, on English television, if they had ever been employed by any intelligence agency, they laughed, but did not give a precise reply. Most of the above is circumstantial. Their complete inability to reproduce even a single simple circle under conditions that were far more favorable (light, no need for silence, or the obliteration of all footprints) than those under which they claimed to have succeeded so frequently, is what kills this particular hope for this simple, and un- sinister solution. (I should make it clear that I am a participant in the thread that made up CIRCLE.TXT, but I have been a member of this forum for almost a year now, and log in every day -- that is, I'm not appearing here for the sole purpose of defending and promoting a pet theory. In fact, I log on every day in hope of finding a dozen messages hammering on the issue of cosmological redshifts. I can hardly wait till I can read an article in Nature, or in Science News, or anywhere else for that matter, that doesn't automatically assume that redshift = distance and distance alone.) #: 92387 S3/Satellite Observing 13-Oct-91 00:52:37 Sb: #92374-GS satellites Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Tony Beresford 72726,3245 Thanks for the informative response, Tony. At least it's theoretically possible. As you may have noted in priors, the question concerns hypothetical SDI experiments addressed in CIRCLE.TXT and its subsequent thread, and some of the English "crop events" being artifacts of same. Presuming unlimited budget, a small nuclear propulsion unit employing high thrust, impulse thrusters using superheated gasses, and the purely speculative idea that more than one Shuttle payload might be joined before deployment to Clarkesville, does it then become a rational element of the dialogue - especially presuming NSA top secret development over a ten or eleven year period. The "crop events" began as primitive circles around the time the high frequency super secret Shuttle missions began, and have been growing in sophistication ever since. That's the genesis of this inquiry, One last brain-pick... do you or someone else know the unclassified version of the size/weight of a current Shuttle payload? Again, thanks for the information. Bob #: 92388 S3/Satellite Observing 13-Oct-91 08:20:02 Sb: #92374-GS satellites Fm: Allen Thomson 72757,1325 To: Tony Beresford 72726,3245 >no flight ready electric propulsion systems in use Minor correction: the FUSSR and the now-defunct USSR have used plasma thrusters on a variety of GEO and LEO satellites for many years. Coupled to a nuclear power source, scaled-up versions of these engines could perform the orbit-changing maneuvers being discussed here. #: 92427 S3/Satellite Observing 14-Oct-91 08:03:58 Sb: #92422-#GS satellites Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Tony Beresford 72726,3245 Tony, a belief is developing that the "novel plot" is indeed the reason that so much classified money is poured into SDI, with more to come (thanks to progress in disarmament talks) for eleven years, and speculation as to some of the payloads of super-secret Shuttle flights. This thread began with the upload on Sept. 22 of CIRCLE.TXT (with klutzy file description due to Tapcis inexperience) to the ISSUES/PARANORMAL Library 10, for want of a better place to put it. A thread started on SPACE/EXTRATERRESTRIALS around Msg. # 45328. I fervently hope that both will be read, as we have finally attained neo-respectability by our presence here, which is where we wanted to be in the first place. Since CIRCLE.TXT is a thread from the "Science & Health" forum of the (members only Writers' Guild of America (WGA), West, Inc., Los Angeles, dealing with the Wiltshire "crop events," proposing that some of them are artifacts of GS borne SDI experiments in maser/laser/other EARTH directed technology. I realize that as professional writers, we would understandably be perceived as developing "novel" plots. This is not the case, here. Writers may have well-exercized pattern-recognition skills, but the scenario this thread produced has not been discussed elsewhere, and we sincerely wanted it introduced into the international discussion. Before I was writing "Star Trek: Both Generations," "Bonanza," "Marcus Welby, M.D.," "The Equalizer," and some movies, I was a Dept. Editor in a then RAND division. My late father was a Senior Scientist on Surveyor, at Hughes, and the arduous process of getting on the Astronomy Forum involved no E.T.'s or metaphysics. [More] There is 1 Reply. #: 92428 S3/Satellite Observing 14-Oct-91 08:04:10 Sb: #92427-GS satellites Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) [Continued] The thread already available in CIRCLE.TXT and the SPACE/E.T.'s messages have brought the reasoning as to how, by whom, why there, what for, hoaxes or not, etc. to a point of evolution that I think will come as a surprise to many, here, who are willing to suspend disbelief long enough to read the material already on CIS, and, if interested, do everything in their power to shoot down its dominant theory. CIRCLE.TXT represents only the views of the participants, and not its host forum or the WGA. It was uploaded with consent of all participants. Even the skeptics thought it deserved discussion. If we were fictioneering, we wouldn't be trying so hard to attract the discussion of the the truly knowledgeable people that we would expect to frequent this forum. From some of the messages on /SPACE/E.T., I suspect some did participate, feeling their professional credentials were safe. I'm very grateful to you and the others who have been willing to take us seriously enough to answer our questions and correct our lay misconceptions. I truly hope the material already posted and uploaded is examined, and the "novel plot" continues to be brainstormed. Bob #: 92429 S3/Satellite Observing 14-Oct-91 08:04:25 Sb: #92423-#GS satellites Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Tony Beresford 72726,3245 Allen, I hope you managed to read my priors to Tony Beresford. I'm pretty knowledgable in the workings of the National Security Act, and though the prior development of this thread as cited there, and elsewhere, is informed speculation based on unclassified sources, I know that some of you are professionals and working under clearances. For the record, none of the participants in the CIS thread(s) except Michael McDowell, who I know well, have ever met anywhere but here. Your message to Allen Thompson presumes that what the US has flown is known. It also presumes that the Russians aren't aware of it, and that it might not be an international co- venture, (perhaps Anglo/American), which is developing coherent beam technology (maser, laser, other) as the military equalizer of the 21st century. It would portent a rationale for some recent geopilitical developments, and promise a control over Third World nuclear proliferation, so calling it a Manhattan Project of the 21st century isn't necessararily a doomsday paranoia. The same security methods might apply. The super-secret Shuttle missions begin around the time of the first "crop circle" events in Wiltshire, England, where I understand is also located the Royal Greenwich Observatory's orbital tracking and earth-rotation measurement facility for a number of years, now. My working premise is that *some* of the "crop events" are artifacts of tests originating in GS(s) over the site. Most are within a 100 mile radius of Stonehenge, and have progressed in sophistication over the period of the secret Shuttle flights. Placing the images in an area with a 5000 year archaeological and metaphysical history would be a brilliant cover. "It's an old story...", making the rules of evidence unmaginable. [More] There is 1 Reply. #: 92430 S3/Satellite Observing 14-Oct-91 08:04:38 Sb: #92429-GS satellites Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) [Continued] Hardly anyone has closely examined the high quality photographs currently in print, because they have been relegated to the occult book shelves. That something extraordinary is happening, as opposed to paranormal, seems unarguable. Lately, the density and grographic range of the events has been spreading - 30 in Japan in the past few months. To let Tony off the hook of suggesting a coverup, I'll be happy to make the suggestion. It won't be the first. During the '70's my late father (then working on Voyager), got me an insider's tour of the Hughes research facility in Malibu. It was from the beginning a laser-dedicated facility, ostensibly developing VERY long range collimation for the purpose of earth-movement detection, hopefully toward the devolopmnent of earthquake prediction systems. Howard Hughes' earthquake phobia was getting a lot of press, too. Given the sophistication of what I saw, and the length of time since I saw it - and given the added development of relatively high temperature superconductors (particularly magnetic applications) - and the favorable ambient conditions of space for maser efficiency - I can't begin to imagine the degree of development that's been achieved. If you're willing to read CIRCLE.TXT and the abovementioned thread, you'll find a number of references and citations regarding long ongoing research in plasma physics - some of it suggestive of the potential for electrical propulsion, the lack of which you concede has intrigued you. I hope the brainstorm will continue. Bob #: 92457 S3/Satellite Observing 14-Oct-91 16:58:09 Sb: #92423-GS satellites Fm: Allen Thomson 72757,1325 To: Tony Beresford 72726,3245 Well, we did fly one reactor (SNAP-10, I think it was), but it wasn't very big. As to why we never fully developed high- isp propulsion systems--dunno, but it seems to be a combination of lack of perceived need, budget, and the technological conservatism that set in after the 1960s. Sigh. #: 92533 S3/Satellite Observing 15-Oct-91 21:10:05 Sb: #92422-GS satellites Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 To: Tony Beresford 72726,3245 I very much respect the professionals and the professional attitudes found on this forum, and I'm glad that Bob Sabaroff has so carefully explained our intentions and our hopes for the Crop Circle thread. As I was very proud to have been a minor part of the discussions here of Arp and the cosmological red-shift discussion, I was glad to be able to contribute somewhat more to the Crop Circle discussion. Although I'm a writer (over 30 novels published, the film BEETLEJUICE, other films, television as well, and a doctorate in English), I do have a little background for the discussion. I was an NSF mathematics scholar back in the days of the CDC 6400, and for six years I worked at the MIT National Magnet Laboratory. I was secretary for the group working on Lasers of all sorts, far-infrared, sub- millimetre, super-conducting, GaAs, and the like. And I have a memory for irrelevancies -- such as the fact that Herstmonceaux Castle had recently been put up for sale. You will find on the thread more and more acerbic skeptics than have yet shown up on CompuServe. And you will find the Astronomy forum quoted for information (on the disposition of the Castle mentioned above) that I knew to come here for. But what can't be stressed enough is that the Circle.Txt was uploaded as a target for your best shots. Show us where the reasoning is off, the facts wrong. We have no interest at all of convincing you of anything. We have every interest in getting at the truth of the subject. #: 92651 S3/Satellite Observing 18-Oct-91 19:15:30 Sb: CIRCLE.txt Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 Bob, got a little distracted with political events the past week. Talk about a conspiracy! Anyway, I've enjoyed our past discussions of crop circles as possible artifacts of SDI testing. The Fox television network aired a special program tonite entitled "The UFO Report: Sightings". It contained a segment on crop circles. Not surprisingly, it focused on them as almost certainly related to UFO activity. The best part was some great aerial photos of the more recent "pictogram" formations. I'm not sure why, but those dramatic photos never fail to get the juices running! Seldom does an unexplained phenomena display itself in such a flagrant "I dare you to figure me out" manner. The failure of the Fox show to make any reference to the possible high-tech human origins of crop circles just gives me more confidence that SDI testing is the most likely explanation. Why look for extraterrestrial explanations when much more prosaic explanations remain to be investigated? I confess that I remain highly skeptical that GS satellites are involved. Also, some aspects of the alleged disinformation campaign that we previously discussed strike me as fairly remote. However, your prior comment that noted the crop circle patterns resemblance to sighting/aiming reticules strikes me as the single most insightful observation yet made regarding their possible origin. The aforementioned Fox show also claimed that circles were showing up in Japan, Canada and elsewhere. Sure wish I could get some "hard" news to confirm those claims. The spread of genuine "Wiltshire type" circles to other parts of the globe would be a fascinating development. #: 92582 S14/News/Current Events 17-Oct-91 12:19:54 Sb: #92262-#CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Stuart Lees 75300,247 To: Sheldon Cohen, TN 72140,327 (X) The local TV station in the West of England (includes Wiltshire) has been giving coverage to the circles for years. If no one noticed the hoaxers' circles it can only have been because there were many more intricate circle patterns to take note of elsewhere. -Stuart (Bristol, England) There is 1 Reply. #: 92624 S14/News/Current Events 18-Oct-91 01:04:31 Sb: #92582-CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Sheldon Cohen, TN 72140,327 To: Stuart Lees 75300,247 (X) Well, I was going by what Time Magazine said. So if I was wrong, actually I wasn't wrong--Time was. #: 92666 S3/Satellite Observing 18-Oct-91 23:01:18 Sb: #92651-CIRCLE.txt Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 Would you believe that even as I type, my trusty VCR is taping the very TV show referred to. It's 9:28 P.M. in L.A. and Fox is airing it from 9 - 10. From your comments, I'm looking forward to viewing it at leisure when I log off. (actually, I'm in Tapcis... technicalities technicalities). There is some media confirmation involving at least the Japanese circles. They appeared in rice paddies, and film of them was shown on CNN's International News Hour, which airs here around midnight. There was no mistaking them. Same format. I recall that your inquiry here about the possibility of retrieving GEO's, and the thread eventially came around to a concession that it was theoretically possible - and that satellites could be linked before deployment, to increase the payload to include maneuvering systems - and could upon recovery be refueled and redeployed, I arrive at the scenario that seems most possible. I cling to GEO's because the precision of the alignments and the sharpness of their outlines suggest a very stable and stationary point of origin. The possibility of substantial maneuvering payload means that considerable resources could be utilized to establish the aligned spin necessary to provide gyroscopic stability and make necessary corrections for precession. A moving source, whether a spy plane or non- GEO satellite would be taking great risks of malfunction or imprecission, and would be very detectable. It also seems convenient that the Royal Observatory's orbital tracking and earth rotation measurement facility is in the affected area. Bob CONTINUED IN CIRCS2.TXT ********************************************************************* * -------->>> THE U.F.O. BBS - http://www.ufobbs.com/ufo <<<------- * *********************************************************************