SUBJECT: COMPUSERVE CONFERENCE TRANSCRIPT 2/19/89 FILE: UFO3220 [The following is a transcript from the February 19, 1989 Online CompuServe conference with publisher, editor Vicki Cooper. Vicki has been affiliated with UFO Magazine since its start in 1986] User User ID Nod Rm Name / Forum Area ---- ------------ --- --- ----------------- 13 75376,1620 CVK 5 Wedge 23 73240,52 HAR 5 Alf 26 74270,3360 LTS 5 Vicki 42 73720,1605 VAN 5 Joe Holland 46 76430,144 FTL 5 Mike Troyer 47 71450,3504 ANN 5 Bert 57 71211,2467 ALL 5 JAY 60 76012,3361 MRT 5 Ted 61 71340,276 SOR 5 Mark.Y 64 75206,2130 SFM 5 Damien Barkan 72 72727,2312 CVA 5 baj 77 76703,266 DUK 5 G-WIZ 84 72210,1213 DEQ 5 Michael Corbin 92 72135,424 PNX 5 Jim Speiser Drax: 93 72406,1736 HLY 5 Darrell Green 97 70511,17 CRZ 5 Mike in absentia 108 72677,360 DCD 5 Jennifer Ross Ted: Tonight we are fortunate to have as our special guest, Ms. Vicki Cooper [NO relation to Bill Cooper]. Vicki is co-publisher and editor of UFO magazine. In the past, Vicki has been editor for L.A. Parent Magazine and has written for the L.A. Times. In recent issues of UFO Magazine Vicki has been focusing on what she terms the "Control Factor." Before I open the floor screen?: to questions perhaps you could explain what it is you mean by the "Control Factor." Also if you have any prepared opening remarks this would be a good time to share them with us. Ok Go Ahead Vicki. GA Vicki: I want to start out by emphasizing a news article that has just appeared in the new issue of UFO. An investigative journalist in Wash. DC has received dependable information from sources who formerly worked at the Pentagon and who sat in on daily briefings with the Joint Chiefs of Staff. These sources have outlined a tight and complex internal command structure for dealing with the UFO situation, directed from the Pentagon's Natl. Military Command Center and encompassing just about every "Known" Authority/Agency within our government and intelligence apparatus. It would appear as if the notorious "secret team" which has orchestrated extensive and world wide covert operations in the name of "national security" is just as entrenched in directing and manipulating UFO research. In answering about the "control Factor": I see it in much the same light as Jacques Vallee. It seems to be a curious combo of an unseen force and influence by forces in very earthly intelligence communities. Infiltration, manipulation of the public perception of the UFO phenomenon. ga Ted: I will now open the the floor for ? GA Joe Holland: Can I ? Bert: ? Damien: ? Ted: Ok Joe GA Joe Holland: I don't understand your article about film producer Bob Emenegger. Was he first offered the Holloman film by the Air force, and was it then withdrawn by higher ups in the Pentagon? Was the content of the film described? Why does Emenegger think the Air Force has no secrets? Vicki: Frankly, I've had a number of conversations with Emenegger and I think he's unduly influenced by the AF. He SAYS he was first exposed to the Holloman film when he and filmmaker Alan Sandler were making a public relations film for the Defense Dept. He saw the film as an aside and has stated that it did in fact depict a saucer landing and GET THIS!: blue aliens getting out of the thing!! ga Wedge: ? Ted: Bert is next Ga Bert: Vicki, first I think there may have been a line missing from your opening statement. Could you check that, as there appeared to be reference to someone who had sat in on joint chiefs meeting ?: You have devoted a couple of issues of UFO to the News media and how they deal, or don't deal, with the UFO phenomenon. We also hear from time to time that there are people in the big media that suppress the issue can you comment on this possibility? ga Vicki: Big Media probably has suppression coming from both owners and the FCC, for various reasons. The biggest suppression, in my opinion, is the refusal by their top notch journalists to take the subject SERIOUSLY! ga Ted: Damien next GA Damien: Sorry, my first time on a conference I pass... Drax: ? Michael Corbin: ? Ted: GA Wedge Wedge: Vicki, since you have one of the best UFO Magazines in the country, and seem to bring out good information, have you been under any in your estimation: any kind of scrutiny by higher ups or have you had any strange things happen to you? ga Vicki: I believe they have an interest in us, for obvious reasons, but as far as intense scrutiny--lets say I feel the control factor shadow over me, but I cannot quite put my finger on things. It's one of the weirdnesses I experience all the time. I'm sometimes, ummmm, spooked! ga Ted: DRAX ga Drax: Thanks, Ted, good to be back. Vicki, can you elaborate any on the investigative journalist and his source's information? Specifically, does his info resemble the MJ-12 infrastructure at all? GA Vicki: A great question. It so happens that lately as I look at the reporter's article, I'm nervous at how the coordination between the infrastructure he describes fits in maybe a little too neatly with MJ-12 info. I also received a flow chart from a researcher here that the Pentagon sources also corroborated somewhat. This guy told me that publishing the flow chart would invite undue scrutiny from government types...EEK! It's in this latest ISSUE. If you don't hear from me, it's been nice!ga Ted: Thanks for the CO-OPERation Vicki. GA Mike Corbin Michael Corbin: Nothing at this time, Ted. Ted: I guess I will ask a question. Vicki, how long has UFO Magazine been in circulation and over that period of time what changes have you seen in the UFO phenomenon? GA Vicki: We published our first issue in '86. It's been less changes in the field, for me, than changes in my perception and attitude about things. The influence of this control factor and what I am convinced is intelligence manipulation has made me more hardnosed and interested in getting facts, about just what the hell the gov't is up to. Suppression, cover-up, is only part of the story. GA Michael Corbin: ? Wedge: ? Ted: Vicki, can you give us a specific example of how the CONTROL FACTOR has affect you? GA Vicki: DAMN. I wish I had great specific examples. What I observe is some manipulation of the field and of cases, I believe, so that research is contained. Nothing ever really gets done as far as opening things up. And it has affected me by making me increasingly aware of the relationship between covert action in general which runs outside of public scrutiny and the manipulations of people and information in this field. I have felt that our mag has perhaps been "fed" information. For instance: There is just too much emphasis on the MJ-12 stuff. I feel it could be a diversion. From what? That's the question. GA Ted: Mike C next GA JIM: ? M. Corbin: Ted, you asked the ? I was going to, but Vicki, do you feel that there is any way to get a more specific handle on where this "feeding" is coming from....Are they sources or people writing columns. ga Vicki: I think--and I stress, think--that sources who are ostensibly gov't. and intel. connected jam the circuits with outrageous and untestable info in order to distract and fragment. I know from history that the CIA, for example, has infiltrated media. The NY Times published an excellent article in the '70s that dealt with just that type of domestic infiltration. Ted: Ok Mike, Follow? ga M. Corbin: Assuming this to be true and the fact that there is so much emphasis on MJ-12, could there be an intelligence connection to this and the show that aired in October? ga Vicki: Absolutely. It seems there was undue influence from the Moore Shandera duo in that program. And let's face it. They would as much as admit that they play closely with spookery in order to promote their MJ-12 scenario. They would not, of course, use the word "promote." But the outcome is just the same. Condor and Falcon are turkeys of the first order, in my estimation! ga Ted: Wedge is up GA Wedge: Vicki, I can remember a time when I would get on here on Sunday nights with Speiser and we would talk about lots of other things than UFO's, because they were not in the news. Why do you think UFO's are coming back at this time? Do you have any theories on this and the gov't position at this new flap time? Vicki: Maybe UFOs are back because it's a "sexy" topic! They also seem to be flying around, lots. Lots is going on. I believe the gov't may have a vested interest in, if not helping with quality information, at least keeping the subject, the UFO myth, somewhat alive in people consciousness. For my part, I simply can't stop being absorbed in all this stuff. It's a matter of keepin' on. GA Drax: ? Ted: If a CompuServe member wanted to contribute an article or paper to UFO Magazine what kind of material are you looking for, what criteria do you use to accept or reject submissions and how should they go about making the submission? GA Vicki: We're always looking for good case material, but we play... Opinion pieces are always a good place to start. I, of course, appreciate people who can write well and I have a particular fondness for material that helps unplug the secrecy constraints. That's why the guy in D.C., with the Pentagon and State Dept. sources, I feel can bring more credibility and brass tacks to the magazine. GA Ted: GA Drax Drax: That touches on something I want to ask about. UFO Magazine claims to provide a forum for theories on ETs, etc. You also want to get down to brass tacks, as you say, and contribute to an ultimate solution. What happens if you find those two goals at odds with each other? For instance, what if you find you are giving a forum to individuals or groups who you feel are not contributing to finding the solution, and may in fact be detrimental to that goal? Where would you draw the line? GA Vicki: It's one of the biggest problems with UFO. I have felt that as I said, we have been fed info at times. As an editor, with some integrity, it would be my job to expose such falsities. But I almost need to understand the complexities of the entire intelligence profession to know what's going on! It's something that troubles me. Also, Sherie [Sherie is the co-publisher with Vicki] and I both believe that we have to be open to the larger picture. Any suggestions? GA Bert: ? Drax: Sorry I have to vacate the premises. Bye. Thanks Vicki! Vicki: Bye, Jim. Sorry to see you go. Ted: Wedge is next ga M. Corbin: Thanks, Ted. Vicki, I am really curious with all of the purported allegations of a government 'disinformation' campaign, what the real truth could be to the phenomenon. Since MJ-12 deals with so much bizarre activity, what is left for us to speculate about what the real truth is? Any feelings on this? ga Vicki: Mike, as you typed your question, it went off the screen. But I believe I have the gist of it. First of all, from a number of "independent" sources, there appears to be a coordinated scenario that depicts, to be brief, an active inner gov't. team which has in-depth knowledge about UFOs and also apparently has interfaced with the aliens. That's the portrait which is somewhat haphazardly being put before the public. It's known that the CIA practices disinformation by stabilizing lines of propaganda that fulfills their own mysterious purposes. I of course can't be sure, but I believe the scenario has some important relationship to our defense stance. And I mean conventional defense stance. It makes me think that there is need for this in what they'd call a national security sense. It's too deep and too political for me to fathom, but it relates to what technology we have, or at least what they'd want us and others KGB?: to THINK we have. Do you see? For someone in my capacity, it's all speculation. Exciting, bizarre cloak 'n' dagger, but speculation, nonetheless. GA Ted: Wedge GA Wedge: I was just going to add that there is a Congressman from Florida who is interested in the lake Erie sighting. He has oversight connections to the Coast Guard which was at the scene of our case. This is being worked on at this moment. Lastly, do you see any type of religious interaction with what is going on in the UFO scene. This was something that many have brought up on this Forum? ga Ted: Dale, what do you mean "oversight connections"? ga Wedge: The Congressman has oversight connections to the Coast Guard he sits on an oversight committee. He wants answers to our case, and has stated that he would have investigations.ga Ted: I would like to come back to that in a later CO. OK Vicki GA Vicki: Get that senator on the phone, quick! Maybe he'd like to take part in the UFO summit meeting that some people here, and Don, are helping to plan. It would get all these crazy cards on the table and clear the path for the next big move in ufology. It will be absolutely crucial to have someone like him, or many like him, on board. Should I take the time NOW to answer the religious question? More input, por favor! GA Ted: Sure, GA Vicki: It can't be denied--many, many, many people seem drawn to putting UFOs in a religious context. I think that's a mistake, as far as ufology and fact gathering go, but what if there ARE aliens, and what if they ARE more "tuned in" to the force that makes life what it is? If that is the case then we indeed have an impending transformation in regards to our concept of God. What dismays me, and apparently contradicts much of what seems to really be going on, is this vast tendency to want to make the aliens ETs, and to make those ETs benefactors and holders of some higher, spiritual powers. There are just so many cases of the aliens who are cut-and-dried and inhumane in what they do to humans. Are these God-like qualities, Hell, no. It's strange how so many crave space brothers in this schtick. GA Wedge: We're talking Good versus Evil. We're not talking about Space Brothers, we're talking about mis-information on a cosmic scale that deals with a dark side that's whole purpose is to make people think that it is either a benefactor race or a Space Brother. Damn, I got to get that paper done I am writing. It will be out next month, tops.ga Vicki: In the grand design, I don't know what it all means. Cosmically, it seems there are these two black-and-white sides. It seems that the human mind wants to polarize. Both the benefactors and the little grey meanies get lots of press! The true issue may be man's belief system, the cosmic change it may be going through. Have you read any of Jacques Vallee's work? He has, I think, a handle on that sort of thing. Cults are built around these beliefs. That's controlling at least my framework, at times. If I could only separate the intelligence shenanigans from the mysterious belief changers who may be coming not from another planet but from a dimension beyond materiality. GA Ted: Another dimension? Which dimension is that? ga Vicki: Take the 405 Freeway to the interstellar offramp. There's a little gin joint there run by my guru talk about dimensions! Well, the beer is great! Hee-hee: GA Ted: Ah HA! I'll bet I'd run into Zephod Bebblebrox sp?: there, Eh? ga Vicki: Oh, yeah, yeah. GA Mark.Y: ? Ted: Ga Mark Y. Mark.Y: Vicki, have you noticed any correlation between UFO phenomena and other paranormal activity, e.g., ghosts, demons, witchcraft, etc.? GA Vicki: I have a "source" here who insists that the occult and witchcraft are a part of the phenomenon. He's a conspiracy buff and much of his info is hard to follow. On the factual side, I know there are a number of UFO witnesses who have experienced extensive psychokinetic activity in conjunction with their UFO experiences. In some cases there has been a relationship between poltergeist activity and UFO events. When you look at the details of many abduction cases, such as the ones Budd Hopkins has researched, time and again there are reports of the "aliens" floating through walls, floating bodies up, paralysis, etc. And I think it should be noted that "black" programs in our government may have some mysterious ways of engendering hallucinations, not to mention psychic research which could institute the kinds of phenomena that some would call paranormal or psychic. And you know, the Soviets have been at it longer and with more seriousness than we have. If we're doing it, baby, it's SECRET!! GA Ted: Mark, if we are successful, we will have Debra Tomey Kathie Davis of "Intruders": next SATURDAY for a special afternoon CO. She has had some STRANGE experiences AFTER her abduction which could be called psychokinetic. Watch the Message board in the next couple of days to see if we actually can get her. Ok any other ? for Vicki? ga Mark.Y: ? Ted: GA Mark JAY: !!!!! Mark.Y: Ok this is a follow-up:. Vicki, would you think that these paranormal activities could be pretending to be UFOs? GA Vicki: Before I answer that, let me note that in a book review Don wrote he tells about the author, Dan Cohen, calling Kathie Davis "the type of person who reads the National Enquirer." That kind of lambasting is the control factor at its horrible finest! Now, to your question. Yes. I believe a UFO could be a fabrication. Look at what we can do already with lasers, with holograms. It's not really absurd that after years of secret R&D, "we" could have come up with psychokinetic technology that could damn well mock up just about anything. It gives a whole new meaning to the boogey-man, doesn't it? GA Ted: Mark, is that what you meant? ga Mark.Y: Close. I was thinking more in lines that ghosts, demons or the like could be pretending to be UFOs particularly in close-encounters 3 & 4 cases:. GA Ted: I thought so, GA Vicki Mike Troyer: ? Vicki: Wicked demons masquerading as UFOs. You know, I find that idea intriguing and I wouldn't put it past those buggers. The question is just how could we tell? Again, it's the absence of hard evidence that has us stuck. Ghosts on the astral realm may have a real fun time charging people up as blasted UFOs. But how do you explain encounters over military installations? Cases of UFOs absorbing pilots, aircraft, throwing off missile launches? Thems some ghosts! Or should I say "spooks?" GA Ted: GA JAY JAY: WHAT TIME SATURDAY? GA Ted: Jay, we don't know yet. It will probably be in the afternoon if at all check the message board, say, Tuesday. Anything else JAY GA Bert: ? JAY: BIBLE Says that in the last days there would be many sights and wonders in the sky. ga Ted: Yes, there sure have been those lately. Any comment Vicki? ga Vicki: The Biblical references fit in, that's for sure. The Book of Ezekiel is one that's filled with UFO imagery. I guess on the historical time frame we are in the "last days." Have you heard about the UFO researchers who became convinced that UFOs represented the anti-Christ? I still think connecting religion with actual UFO study and research is a mistake. It confuses the issue and feeds a mythology that has little connection and no support to gathering evidence that affixes UFO reality. The Bible-thumpers have a lot of heat, but very little light. That's not to say that science will have the whole ball of wax. In the final analysis it would seem UFOs represent an uncanny interaction between nuts-and-bolts and the tale of humanity outlined in religious myth and cultural heritage. Now that sounds so high and mighty that it probably doesn't mean much. I need some hard questions? I interface with just about everybody in the UFO field! So whattya want to know?? GA Bert: ? Ted: Mike Troyer, how about a Hard question? ga Mike Troyer: Well, as a relative newcomer who's not afraid to appear dumb, let me ask what seems to me to be the obvious questions:. First, Vicki, have YOU ever seen what you would describe as a UFO? ga Vicki: Can you believe it? I've never seen a UFO. But I did see a meteor or shooting star one night, out near Joshua Tree, CA where there's been lots of UFO activity. It was so big, and occurred at an emotional moment of conversation. The timing was such that I felt there was an odd sort of synchronicity to it, one that implied a form of intelligence to me. In the old days, they would have called it an "omen." Or, for that matter, a "sign or wonder" in the sky!! I felt very religious about it for days afterward. GA Ted: Any follow Mike? ga Mike Troyer: Secondly, Let me ask you if you BELIEVE in what we commonly refer to as UFO's? GA Vicki: You've gotta be kidding! I'm only driven, to the point of OBSESSION, to do this magazine. I have a strong almost bizarre compulsion to make the UFO subject more acceptable to wider number of people and there are times, too many times, when my whole life revolves around doing this magazine and doing it better and better all the time. You should see the recent issue hold for a commercial break!: Tons of good stuff, black helicopter info, an inside look at Strieber's new movie, the gov't. infrastructure and, as we say, much, much more. I simply am hooked on UFOs and can't let it go. GA Ted: Bert Ga Mark.Y: ? Bert: Vicki, I've just finished reading "Don't Look Up" by Danny Gordon and Paul Dellinger, who are both journalists. It deals with the sightings going on in Wythville VA and thereabouts. What's interesting is that here are two JOURNALISTS who are focusing on over 1000 sightings in the last year or so. Have you had any contact with these guys? And what do you think generally of the VA flap? ga M Corbin: Nite all. Thanks Vicki and Ted. I have enjoyed this!! Vicki: I've talked to Danny Gordon a number of times and he sends me his newsletter. He's another journalist who got pulled into the UFO thing. He told me at times, for him, it was also an obsession, in the same sense as I just described. He was convinced that it was military activity for the longest time. Yet the book is filled with drawings that depict the most unusual craft, taken directly from witness accounts. I can't help thinking that the Wytheville flap could be an example of a manufactured UFO wave. But the book tells tale after witness tale of sightings. Many were are: huge craft that flew at unbelievably high or low speeds. "Don't Look Up" is reviewed in this issue. I like Danny. He gave a presentation before UPI reporters in VA, wherein he tried to rally them to look seriously at the subject and begin doing their job as reporters with it. Incidentally, a known NY journalist, Howard Blum, is writing a book on the UFO cover-up. He has written about espionage, about the Walker Spy case, for one. I love seeing journalists doing there thing for UFOs. Every little bit helps. GA Bert: follow Ted: GA Bert Bert: I guess we also need to keep in mind that Danny Gordon has had 29 sightings himself at the time the manuscript was finished:. One further question, how much of an impact do you think the upcoming abduction movies Communion, Intruders, Fire in the Sky: are going to have on the general public's perception of what may be going on. Seems to me it could have a major effect, since movies are something people discuss more openly with each other. ga Vicki: It's curious, though, how movies are talked about, but often the information in them is dismissed after a short time. It's possible these flicks could have a short-term effect. Just last night here in CA, we discussed the effect of using that immediate public reaction to those films to galvanize public sentiment toward getting loud about the UFO thing. We are considering a form of "leafletting" about the UFO summit outside the theaters for example. I try to fight that depressing feeling that people can be exposed again and again to this information and yet just sit on their duffs when it comes to doing something. There seems to be a "veil" up. That's the stigma that surrounds the UFO area. It's been there for SO long! What is it going to take to break that veil? We need proof that we can slap everyone with. Until the phenomenon makes itself more "present" it may be the usual frustration. Any idea on what will mobilize public sentiment? Sometimes I feel that if I could do it, I'd arrange an abduction encounter for Dan Rather!! Just kidding. I would not wish that on anyone. But what will do it? What will do it? GA Bert: ! Ted: Good ?. I guess there are no good answers. Mark Y. is next GA Mark Mark.Y: Pass Ted: GA Bert Bert: Just wanted to note that since the MUFON meeting in Las Vegas will have COVERUP as it's theme, that might be cause to attempt a media alert. GA Ted: Any other ?s ga Ted: Vicki, I want to thank you for spending your Sunday evening with us. I has been a very enjoyable experience for us. I hope that soon you will become a REGULAR here on our forum. I also want to thank Don Ecker for the time he spent helping to put this CO together. Thanks Guys and Gals! Vicki, any final comments? ga Vicki: Thanks for this opportunity, Ted. I hope to be able to be on the forum regularly. By the way, Don urges response to his HUMMUT.TXT! Again my thanks. GA Ted: Nite all! Bert: Thanks, Vicki and Don. Vicki: Nite, stay happy. ********************************************************************* * -------->>> THE U.F.O. BBS - http://www.ufobbs.com/ufo <<<------- * *********************************************************************