SDF Meeting Log 19-FEB-99

Please try answering the "survey" from the shell

<smj> I'll wait about 2 minutes before actually starting :-)
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<smj> Okay, before I start.  I just wanted to say that this is being logged so
<smj> people who miss out can read it later.
<smj> I'll keep a copy in ftp://sdf.lonestar.org/pub/sdf
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<smj> Thank you for joining.  I think the idea behind SDF is a unique one
<smj> and its something I've tried to maintain for over the past 10 years.
<smj> I've seen many ISPs come and go .. all looking to obtain loads of 
<smj> money by charging $19.95 (and now cheaper) for "Internet access"
<smj> When SDF started, we had the ARPAnet and some good UUCP networks.
<smj> The whole idea of commercialising the resources was just beyond our
<smj> scope.  I mean, we saw it as a great way to trade information, but not
<smj> as a way to make money.  Also, we setup this PUBNIX so that people who
<smj> could not afford to purchase a UNIX license could learn about UNIX.
<smj> But, yeh, Times have changed significantly.  :)  
<smj> SDF's main funding has always come out of my pocket.  Recently, since 1996,
<smj> I was able to get help from a company called "MALR" who is based here in
<smj> Texas to help with the funding.  Basically, they pay all the SDF bills,
<smj> host SDF and in return they use the system for their purposes.  Very minimal
<smj> usage.  Infact, the use sdf basically as a router, list server, smtp and pop3
<smj> server.  Now days (basically since 1996) all donations from users go to MALR
<smj> hence, you have to write the cheque out to them when you become arpa.  This is
<smj> working out great because I don't have to worry about SDF's future too much.
<smj> At least we are all sure of one thing, and that is SDF has a secured foundation
<smj> capital.  How can we get this?  Part of the reason why I setup the "survey" was
<smj> so that I could get input and reaction from users on some ideas I was throwing
<smj> around.  Some people say, go commercial and I'm really pretty much against that
<smj> idea.  Because that is essentially throwing in the towel and charging people high
<smj> rates.  Since January of this year, there have been about 5000 new accounts created.
<smj> Since sometime last fall, there have been about 20000 accts created.  So, idealistically
<smj> if each user donated something like $1 a month, sent annually as $12 sdf would have
<smj> this building capital .. to expand, add more features, 1-800 dialup line, faster
<smj> connection .. et cetera .. And honestly, if everyone did that, it would work. The
<smj> problem is, people WON'T do it :)  I'm just trying to figure out a solution to
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<smj> this dilema .. Because I think SDF should have been a much bigger operation
<smj> years ago.  But because of building capital that hasn't happened.  So, these days
<smj> but brings in some source of funding for the machine.
<smj> A drastic idea would to be keeping the visitor account the same, but when a user
<smj> logs in only allowing them very limited access with a message saying something to
<smj> the effect of, "please send your small charity fee of $2 to activate your life time
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<smj> membership" .. Something like that could work and also would help with a few
<smj> things:
<smj> 1) confirms identity of a person - security reasons
<smj> 2) builds the funding capital to buy new equipment, faster connections
<smj> 3) weeds out "lusers" as I affectionately call them.
<smj> This seems pretty agreeable .. and also, I have to realise that I don't woe
<smj> (owe) everyone else a free ride.  No doubt a lower lifetime membership fee
<smj> would be agreeable to many people and would help in expansion.  For instance,
<smj> there was a drive in SDF that was recalibrating everytime it was accessed.  But
<smj> I chose not to do anything about it .. until finally I replaced it with a personal
<smj> drive.  This was just a week or so ago.  Of course it helped with performance, but
<smj> I guess the point is why should I be required to do anything anymore?  After 12
<smj> years of existence, you'd figure this thing would be able to support itself, and
<smj> even with MALR helping, the responsibility lies in my hands.  But one thing for
<smj> sure is that there will always be a non-commercial attitude here and if a membership
<smj> fee is required, it will be low and very reasonable.
<smj> Okay, the details .. in the survey, I asked what programmes people wanted to see here.
<smj> Most people said that SDF was adequately endowed :)
<smj> About USERS versus ARPA .. many people felt that BOTs should be included in
<smj> ARPA.  Let me say something about this.  BOTs are really hoggy in memory and CPU.
<smj> In 1996 I conducted an experiment and let everyone compile bots and run them.  I
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<smj> went to sleep.  The next morning it took me about 20 minutes to get to a shell 
<smj> from the login prompt :)
<smj> When I was able to do a ps listing, I found that 45 bots were running.  So, should
<smj> ARPA include bots?  No.  I think that BOTs just as virtual webhosting, DNS and such 
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<smj> need to be in a category of their own.
<smj> NOW, if there was a membership fee, of course then ARPA would be the maingroup that
<smj> everyone would be in.  It would include the basic ARPA services such as talk, ftp, lynx,
<smj> irc, telnet, whois, finger, rlogin .. 
<smj> So, I'm really considering trying this out and I hope that it works.  because I'd
<smj> like to see SDF be able to maintain itself (hardware and such) and also benefit those
<smj> people who do become members.  
<smj> I'm going to open this up now
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<smj> questions or comments?
<foobity> well, if the money does pour in... I find the 1800 dialup would be cool.
<morton> hi
<bcnguyen> Hi.
<igor> what about us international users?
<morton> oh i can write now
<morton> :)
<smj> You know, I had a 1-800 dialup in 1993. But the cost was so much.
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<foobity> how much though?
<smj> But yes, I think 1-800 would really help.
<smj> Its charged about 20 cents a minute
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<foobity> right now, my dialup is 10 a month.
<smj> flat rate.
<bcnguyen> wow...that's expensive
<smj> Yes.
<bcnguyen> right now, I have free internet
<bcnguyen> pay nothing each month
<foobity> Free is always great.9 ponce on #sdf * type /help for help                                                                                      
<smj> But anyway, I want to think about ideas to build up SDF's resources
<smj> Its sad that even though we started before AOL and such that we're small
<smj> just because we never asked for anything.
<smj> And I know, you can't expect people to GIVE anything because they won't
<bcnguyen> See, AOL is very BIG right now
<foobity> oh ya, what happened to perl? (I'm a regular user here)
<RzR> I know if you charge $ then a lot of people will delete thier accounts
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<bcnguyen> that's true.
<bcnguyen> See, I don't use AOL
<bcnguyen> neither other ISP
<smj> Well, to be honest I don't care.  Infact I encourage the use of "delme" ;-)
<smj> I used to care about the individual alot, but I think that the benefit of the whole
<smj> is better.
<smj> At least in this environment.
<bcnguyen> hey, I think you need to care more about individual
<bcnguyen> people like to have other people care about them
<foobity> the -whole- is missing access to Perl.
<smj> But the problem is who gives a care about SDF or my ?
<bcnguyen> well, then, why don't you do something that have them care?
<RzR> how much mone are we talking here??
<smj> But also, why should sdf be taken advantage of so that foobity can have his perl?
<smj> like $2 or $3 for lifetime arpa
<bcnguyen> are you sure?  only $2 for a lifetime ?
<smj> I can't see why people would go for it.
<bcnguyen> I would pay for that.
<foobity> well that's really cheap.
<foobity> I would too.
<smj> I'm trying to figure it out.. but its going to be REALLY small and it will be lifetime.
<ryan-> ditto
<RzR> thats fair I have that much in my couch right now
<foobity> os then would I get my Perl?
<bcnguyen> I would go for it...$2 for a life time
<smj> of course.
<foobity> heheh.
<smj> perl (of  course)
<bcnguyen> but what shall I have for Arpa ?>?
<smj> Did you see what I wrote above?
<smj> telnet, ftp, lynx, rlogin, ssh1, perl/cgi ..
<bcnguyen> ok.
<bcnguyen> yeah, got that.
<smj> basically everything .. just not BOTs .. the system can't do that stuff :)
<mith> larger quota?
<smj> I mean, even if we have a DEC alpha
<foobity> what about the dialup.
<bcnguyen> ok...I would pay $2 for you right now
<smj> Yes, of course.
<smj> Infact, I would like the quota to be lik 10megabytes
<smj> Okay .. let me think about this idea of small one time $$ for lifetime membership
<smj> Let me ask you guys, please answer honestly.  What is the MAX you think is fair
<smj> for life time membership?
<ryan-> i wouldnt mind paying $5....
<ryan-> for a max
<bcnguyen> $10
<ryan-> or maybe even 10 actually.....
<ryan-> hehe
<foobity> $10-20 for the whole enchilada, if there 's a dialup too... 
<smj> Okay, this is sounding very good.  I can't do the dialup just yet, but
<smj> it will be on the list of additions!
<foobity> woohoo
<ryan-> cool.
<smj> really, I want to get totally rid of this "monthly donation" crap.
<foobity> ya
<smj> I think a one time donation is really good.
<mith> Max? Other shells I've known charge like $40-60 for a year and less features, so $20 would seem reasonable, but..
<smj> Well, about 200 people make accounts on SDF everyday.
<smj> I hope that somewhere in that 200 there is a handful that agree with you guys.
<bcnguyen> hey, $10 would be good.
<smj> If that happens, then SDF will really really really progress.
<smj> I think you are right.
<smj> Let me think about it and how to implement it.
<bcnguyen> Ok
<smj> But yes, one time donation for LifeTime membership really is great.
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<RzR> I think you should only make people pay for the features they use
<bcnguyen> No, Rzr
<smj> well, thats a problem.
<foobity> by putting a price on each feature?
<smj> because then you have departmentalise SDf.
<smj> that would be really bad.
<smj> perl .50 cents
<smj> gcc .75 cents
<mith> With donation levels, like $5 for regular arpa, and like $2 for more quota or something
<smj> no
<RzR> well I mean like a couple of packages
<bcnguyen> that's not good.
<bcnguyen> $2 - $10 would be good.
<smj> I think one amount, lifetime benefits.
<ryan-> me too
<smj> here is my idea for a new user:
<smj> 1) makes the account
<smj> 2) sets passwd and logs in and see the information
<bcnguyen> see....you give them choice...from $2 - $10
<smj> 3) options:  sendmail to admin, delme
<smj> Then, everyone who makes the lifetime donation benefits because
<smj> we don't have to worry about leechers leeching off what you guys
<smj> help build.
<smj> But I will say this, just to make it clear BOTs/DNS and virtual hosting 
<smj> will be different animals
<smj> we're just talking UNIX shell
<bcnguyen> ok
<smj> :)
<mith> I wouldn't mind a more restricted shell for users, but I'd hate a menu thing only for new users
<smj> I feel alot better.  whew.
<mith> heh
<smj> Well, thats what "monitor" was
<smj> I wrote that as a new user interface.
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<foobity> hrm, if this money *again* DOES pour in then a new machine could be created with bots and all, for all those memory
+hoggin' tasks.
<smj> But yeh, delme is great because it really helps take care of things.
<smj> Well, MAYBE .. we just have to see .
<smj> but yes, future items so far:  
<smj> 1) increase disk quota from 10 megs to greater
<smj> more members, more disk space
<smj> 2) 1-800 dialup
<smj> 3) possible additions .. like if a new application pops up, icq
<smj> 4) ultimate: background process/bot with some sort of limitations
<smj> of course we can't have someone come in send $7 and then run like 5 IRC servers
<RzR> is there another way to communicate with other users besides talk??
<Veovis> Will SDF ever be able to support vhosts?
<smj> irc, com, send, write
<smj> it supports them now.
<smj> but I'm saying that would be a different thing.
<RzR> thank ya kindly
<smj> You wouldn't get your shell account and eat it too.. you know?
<bcnguyen> ok.
<smj> it would be an additional thing.. like a Premium Sponsorship level
<bcnguyen> At University of Washington system
<bcnguyen> they have like 2 people talking with the screen divide 2 parts..just like ICQ Chat
<smj> Yes, thats ytalk
<smj> we have it.  Its just arpa only because you can get to a shell
<bcnguyen> ok
<smj> actulaly, I could fix it so it setgid(); appropriately when the
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<smj> shell is run.  but anyway, we're already sort of discussed how
<bcnguyen> I tried command talk but not work
<bcnguyen> somehow
<smj> we are going to change sdf.
<mith> You could have like a minimum dotnation of $2 for arpa, but a suggested of $5, I'd do that
<smj> hehe
<smj> We'll see.. you'd have the problem of then "Well I PAID $5 and blablabh you owe me this!"
<bcnguyen> ehehhe
<smj> You'd be surprised what kind of email I get.  People are so selfish and demanding!
<smj> :)
<bcnguyen> ahhaha
<smj> No wonder capitalism and ISPs are married
<smj> SDF is like PBS .. alot of people say that.  Its very socialistic.
<foobity> except pbs programming sucks.
<ryan-> hehe
<smj> Well, I find it good .. At least I did when I watched TV :)
<Guest1617> Tellytubbies!
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<smj> Yes, tellietubbies
<foobity> no no no
<smj> But not barney
<mith> damn, pizza's here. I mean .. Yeah! pizza's here!
<smj> AnywaY, thanks alot for coming to the meeting .. I'm putting
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<smj> the log in ~ftp/pub/sdf
<smj> Okay?  And thanks for answering the survey .. i really think we've
<bcnguyen> ok...
<bcnguyen> gotta go.
<smj> got a new direction for SDF that will make it big finally.
<smj> bye
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<bcnguyen> hmm!