--- Log opened Mon May 03 20:24:19 2010
20:24 -!- nullogic [nullogic@sdf-7876BD5B.freeshell.org] has joined #future
20:24 -!- Irssi: #future: Total of 6 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 6 normal]
20:24 -!- Irssi: Join to #future was synced in 2 secs
20:29  * nullogic idles, may be back
20:30  * anthonyg waves
20:45 -!- ajgraves [~ajgraves@sdf-CF922DFD.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #future
20:48 -!- smj [~smj@sdf-1D0780C1.freeshell.org] has joined #future
20:48 < smj> hey there
20:49  * ecelis waves
20:49 < anthonyg> Hello
20:49 < ajgraves> hi
20:50 < smj> 10 minutes
20:51 < redleg> (and counting)
20:51 < ajgraves> 9
20:51 < ajgraves> lol
20:51 < ajgraves> couldn't resist
20:52  * ajgraves thinks we need a nasa-type countdown
20:52 < redleg> 8
20:53 < redleg> 7
20:53 -!- emb [emb@sdf-8C2616F0.lonestar.org] has joined #future
20:53 < emb> Hello.
20:53 < ranger92> Hey
20:53 < ajgraves> hai
20:53 < redleg> (shhh)
20:53  * ecelis welcomes emb
20:53 < redleg> ;P
20:54 < smj> hi peter.
20:54 < smj> hi emb
20:55 < ajgraves> is there a timeline on how long this will go, or just kinda take it as it comes?
20:55  * emb hasn't been in irc for some time
20:55 < nullogic> hi
20:55 < smj> hi karol
20:55 < smj> thanks for coming
20:56 < nullogic> no problem
20:56 < smj> it will start in about 4 minutes... anyone can log.
20:56 < smj> I think an hour is fine
20:59 -!- smj [~smj@sdf-1D0780C1.freeshell.org] has left #future []
20:59 -!- smj [~smj@sdf-1D0780C1.freeshell.org] has joined #future
21:00 < smj> okay, we're here.
21:00 -!- davek [davek@sdf-7876BD5B.freeshell.org] has joined #future
21:00 -!- marla_ [marla@sdf-8C2616F0.lonestar.org] has joined #future
21:00 < smj> greetings davek
21:00 < marla_> did it work, am i here
21:00 < davek> Howdy
21:01 < smj> first of all, I'd like to ask.. can anyone here tell me how to hack hotmail?
21:01 < nullogic> hi you two
21:01 < smj> j/k
21:01 < smj> thanks for coming to this meeting.  I'd like to begin now.
21:02 -!- oniRyan [kuzetsa@sdf-6194F863.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #future
21:02 < smj> Basically, what we need to discuss is what the IRC server is to be used for and who involved will be maintaining it.
21:02 < oniRyan> hmm... being used for "hanging out, chatting"
21:03 < smj> My idea of having an IRC server is that it will serve as an outside to the inside interface for non-members to interact with members and hopefully answer questions they may have while they decide whether or not to become SDF members.
21:04 < smj> Has everyone read over the brief AUP I wrote up and posted on the bboard?
21:04 < smj> I can post it as a URL if needed.
21:04 < VN> I've read it.
21:04 < redleg> please do post the url
21:04 < nullogic> ya, lots of people come here before an account
21:04 < redleg> I didn't know you posted it
21:05 < nullogic> i've read it
21:05 -!- robthew00t [~Rob@sdf-C8FA0CEF.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #future
21:05 < oniRyan> oh, I didn't know it was on bboard
21:05 < smj> I posted it on the bboard.
21:05 < robthew00t> i'm here
21:05 < smj> http://sdf.org/tutorials/irc-policy.txt
21:05 < redleg> ok
21:05  * ecelis readed it
21:05 < redleg> thanks for the link smj
21:05 < smj> I'll check it into RCS so MetaARPA members can edit it.
21:05 < smj> I think the AUP is pretty standard and reasonable.
21:06 < smj> I'm open to other opinions
21:06 < anthonyg> Yeah, I agree with smj. I don't see any problems with the AUP at all...it's fairly standard.
21:06 < redleg> it does not address channels other than helpdesk
21:06 < nullogic> maybe add that link to the irc motd?
21:06 < redleg> from a quick skim
21:07 < redleg> is it to be limitted to help/bridge non/new member with seasoned SDF members?
21:07 < ecelis> I think the AUP is ok, as nullogic points, it could be linked from the irc motd
21:07 < anthonyg> I don't think the AUP limited other channels...it just specifically mentioned the helpdesk one.
21:07 < smj> The AUP states that the purpose of the IRC server is that redleg, but it also states that it may be used for recreational conversation
21:08 < smj> I agree, lets link it into the motd.
21:08 < redleg> I see that now
21:08 < ecelis> now the problem as I see it is to get the irc users members or non-members, beheave
21:08 < redleg> motd is a must
21:08 < smj> in fact, the file can be htmlified.
21:08 < nullogic> cool, now no one can say: 'what AUP?'
21:08 < oniRyan> an "opt-in" channel for the (current type of) horsing around (even intense stuff such as a hardcore vulgarity, etc) is what I'd consider being the only way the current community (the only IRC community I've known) won't clash with new users
21:09 < oniRyan> #hardcore or something
21:09 < redleg> perhaps the autojoin to #helpdesk *and* making that url the topic for helpdesk...
21:09 < smj> ecelis, I think that issue isn't such a problem.  Non-members actually have direct access to IRC via the prevalidated shell and can of course run their own clients.
21:09  * emb offers to html-ify
21:09 < smj> I think that an #adult channel is fine.
21:09 < oniRyan> oh, or #adult
21:09 < oniRyan> yeah
21:09 < smj> but it should be strictly enforced.
21:09 < VN> that's good smj. prevalidated users wouldn't have to be stuck in limbo with noone around to help them
21:10 < redleg> I concur VN
21:10 < smj> the issue is that #sdf or #helpdesk were used when #adult should have been used.
21:10  * ecelis agrees with redleg and VN
21:10 < redleg> #helpdesk never really  existed
21:10  * nullogic agrees w/ smj
21:10 < davek> Well, I think that was largely because there weren't clear guidelines for what #sdf should be
21:10 < davek> The behavior of a lot fo people there could certainly be considered disruptive, but to them it was just 'normal'
21:10 < robthew00t> were there any guide lines to begin with?
21:10 < oniRyan> davek: no guidelines at all.
21:11 < redleg> #sdf was a community and folks let most of it ride
21:11 < ecelis> and as everyone is always having fun, seems like no one enforced to use other channels for non-help stuff
21:11 < nullogic> i'd assume guidlines were the general sdf aup
21:11 < emb> Is it possible #adult could lead to some illegal behavior?
21:11 < robthew00t> why would it
21:12 < VN> just the hint that it's "adult"
21:12 < robthew00t> it would just essentially be a place to throw carbine when he's spamming cocks
21:12 < oniRyan> emb: the existing #sdf channel was already being used to discuss potentially illegal or "shady" behavior
21:12 < robthew00t> #mature?
21:12 < oniRyan> which I won't get into
21:12 < smj> One thing that should be assumed is that SDF is "all ages" and is not an adult site.
21:12 < redleg> oniRyan, wut?
21:12 < smj> However, I have no problem with there being an #adult or #ffa channel
21:13 < VN> could we just stick #sdf and #helpdesk as within reasonable boundaries of normal conversations?
21:13 < VN> And leave everything else as open country?
21:13 < oniRyan> redleg: not sure if you were in on it, otherwise you wouldn't be suprised at what I just said
21:13 < davek> The name 'adult' has other connotations, though
21:13 < anthonyg> I think that a seperate #adult channel would be the best thing, and perhaps have rules that require the other channels to be PG-13 or something like that.
21:13 < robthew00t> nope
21:13 < redleg> oniRyan- what is this?  (21:12:15) oniRyan: emb: the existing #sdf channel was already being used to discuss potentially illegal or "shady" behavior
21:13 < davek> Mainly they're just horsing around
21:13 < smj> redleg, I think the miscommunication was that #sdf was meant to be the "welcoming channel" for outsiders to SDF. 
21:13 < emb> Yes, that's the concern. Last thing smj needs is the feds at his door because someone was talking sex with a minor.
21:13 < redleg> understand smj
21:13 < nullogic> smj: that sounds more than a fair setup for all users
21:13 < smj> emb, the fed have visited and called.
21:14 < redleg> but flinging illegal activity out there as stuff that was ahoppening vilifies something as it was not
21:14 < ranger92> I think #mature would be better than #adult. If I were an outsider and saw some of the stuff in #sdf, I'd probably go elsewhere 
21:14 < smj> The bottom line is I'm the person who is responsible and what I need is people who take responsibility as 'opers' to help enforce the AUP.
21:14 < redleg> true
21:14 < smj> SDF has to remain "All Ages" in my opinion.
21:14 < redleg> and agree with ranger92
21:14 < smj> However, it can have adult sections.
21:15 < smj> that is perfectly reasonable.
21:15  * oniRyan nods
21:15 < redleg> agree
21:15 < anthonyg> I think the 'ops' is a good idea. Would they be volunteers, or a membership level?
21:15 < smj> ranger92, whatever is the current nomenclature is fine with me as long as its clear.
21:15 < davek> There have been ops before, but I don't know how much they actually participated...
21:15 < VN> just the three of us anthony..
21:16 < ecelis>  I guess OP's must be at least ARPA, but I'm not sure how many less than ARPA users are in IRC
21:16 < smj> There can be more, I'd like to have a number of trustworthy people involved.
21:16 < oniRyan> smj -- keeping up with the AUP, and making sure the default place for all-ages "meet the SDFers" chat is something I'd be comfortable with if that's all you really wanted for an oper. I just don't want to have to mess with people in the adult / mature areas.
21:16 < redleg> then you doon't join that channel oniRyan
21:16 < VN> I think Meta's should have op privleges
21:16 < redleg> it really is simple, ya know?
21:17 < smj> agreed oniRyan, they need their own area or, even their own server.  I've suggested to nullogic that they setup their own IRC server on their VPS and leave SDF.
21:17 < VN> but that somewhat borders selfishness
21:17 < emb> I'm with oniRyan.
21:17 < oniRyan> redleg: I wouldn't mind joining, just refuse to moderate it... moderating it would get a repeat of how angry people were with me over the weekend
21:17 < redleg> you said you don't want to mess with them, then don't join, simple.
21:17 < nullogic> ya vn, they should
21:17 < anthonyg> I'm an admin on a MUSH game. I'm used to people being angry with me. ;)
21:18 < davek> Add a fedbot to every channel so people know they're being watched ;)
21:18 < oniRyan> redleg: I'll play it by ear heh.
21:18 < redleg> are you to be a canop by default- is that what I am missing here?
21:18  * ajgraves agrees with davek
21:18 < redleg> *chanop
21:18 < robthew00t> why?
21:18 < robthew00t> i mean
21:18 -!- avo [avoyager@sdf-7876BD5B.freeshell.org] has joined #future
21:18 < robthew00t> the irc is what i get most use out of as being a member of SDF
21:19 < redleg> heh, rob
21:19  * oniRyan nods
21:19 < ecelis>  a bot could be a good idea, it could send some message to the term of OPs in case of certain words, maybe
21:19 < robthew00t> and not like i would use it for anyting bad but i mean
21:19 < redleg> for me it is ssh tunels and irc
21:19 < smj> anthonyg I understand, you are a good candidate :
21:19 < VN> or perhaps limit prevals to one channel on irc? Not sure how you can accomplish that, like commode
21:19  * anthonyg chuckles. Well then. :)
21:19 < smj> I've checked in the irc-policy.html into RCS so any MetaARPA member may now check it out and edit it.
21:19 < davek> They can always connect from their own clients, vn
21:20 < oniRyan> VN: I know how to set that up actually, it's nothing too difficult, if it were needing implemented
21:20 < smj> http://sdf.org/tutorials/irc-policy.html
21:20 < redleg> irc can be locked down in countless ways
21:20 < redleg> including authenticated logins and keeping new/nonmembers in #help
21:20 -!- robthew00t [~Rob@sdf-C8FA0CEF.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
21:21 < redleg> I think VN had a reasonable point
21:21 < VN> that's my thought, redleg
21:21 < nullogic> i think  #helpdesk is more than fine.  KISS
21:21 < redleg> MetaArpa membvers given ops from cahnnel bots
21:21  * ecelis agrees with nullogic
21:21  * oniRyan nods
21:21 < oniRyan> yeah
21:21 < oniRyan> :)
21:21 < redleg> that was you are not losing it when that one or two select ops timeout or drop for whatever reason
21:21  * ecelis thinks redleg idea is good
21:22 < emb> Maybe two channels -- #helpdesk and, say, #lobby -- can be open to non-members?
21:22 < redleg> yah, emb, concur
21:22 < oniRyan> emb -- even better! yes!
21:22 < nullogic> non members should have full sever access imho.
21:22 < smj> Yes, the irc server has to be open to all
21:22 < emb> It might be boring for non-members if they are stuck in helpdesk. And it might be annoying for sdf users actually seeking help if others just want to chat.
21:23 < anthonyg> Would only SDF members be allowed to register nicks? I'm not exactly sure how we'd enforce only allowing members access to certain channels.
21:23 < VN> not really null. validated members don't have access to irc, but prevals do?
21:23 < oniRyan> hmm
21:23 < smj> yes, prevals can use a limited SDF only irc client
21:23 < ecelis> I agree, irc server must be open, but under tight control from trusted members if needed
21:23 < nullogic> they all do via irc weekends...
21:23 < VN> speaking of control, only ops can create new channels?
21:23 < oniRyan> anthonyg: the technical side of that isn't too hard if that's what's needed. it'll work *smile*
21:24 < VN> haha, I'm just being imaginative..
21:24 < smj> but also SDF irc server access could be available to validated members too
21:24 < emb> yeah, that is weird to open to the outside, but limit some sdf members.
21:24 < davek> I'm not sure how closely I want connecting to IRC with my own client to be tied to my SDF credentials.  Is that a potential security issue?
21:24 < nullogic> VN: no, everyone
21:24 < smj> but ARPA would be the only tier that would have access to external IRC servers.
21:24 < oniRyan> VN: that's yet another possibility, but I wouldn't really see why THAT restriction would be neccessary
21:24 < oniRyan> smj *nods*
21:25 < anthonyg> oniRyan: I see. :)
21:25 < oniRyan> smj: will access to sdf IRC require connecting from a freeshell server or will connections be open directly to the server? I really like using my own client, directly connected to server (easy to use, and works with my screenreader -- irssi or other would be a real pain for me)
21:25 < nullogic> oniRyan: no
21:26 < oniRyan> won't require connecting from a freeshell shell?
21:26 < oniRyan> ok, good.
21:26 < anthonyg> I go back and forth with clients, so direct access to the irc server would be nice.
21:26  * oniRyan nods
21:26 < smj> oniRyan, do you mean to have SDF run a nickserv?
21:27 < redleg> nickserv, eys
21:27 < oniRyan> smj: no, wasn't talking about that.
21:27 < VN> so we don't want prevals to use external clients for irc? Or do?
21:27 < redleg> *yes
21:27 < oniRyan> for nickserv / etc. I'd recommend anope (works great with unrealircd)
21:27 < smj> well I think *anyone* should be able to connect to the irc server from anywhere.
21:27 < redleg> that would also help address daveks credential security concern 
21:27 < nullogic> should we run ircservices? i see its a package installed on sdf...
21:28 < redleg> external irc client access is a must! lol
21:28 < VN> I think we should limit it to prevals.
21:28 < smj> redleg, but even more so, non-SDF members should be able to connect to the SDF irc server.
21:28 < VN> We do have membership tiers
21:28 < redleg> yes, smj, I agree
21:28 < ranger92> null: What services does it provide ?
21:28 < redleg> and from anywhere
21:29 -!- xexyz [~xexyz@sdf-BFF4E418.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #future
21:29 < smj> true, but prevals as it stand can only connect to the SDF irc server from within SDF.  They cannot connect to external IRC servers.
21:29 < xexyz> o theres more rooms
21:29  * xexyz slaps forehead
21:29 < davek> I'm just wonder how that works exactly.  I'll admit I'm not IRC expert, but it sounds like we want to let people connect to the SDF server with their own clients (good) while simultaneously restricting what they can do in IRC based on their SDF membership level...somewhere you'd have to enter your SDF password in IRC, wouldn't you?
21:29 < redleg> nickserv would enforce policies and protect sdf credentials
21:29 < VN> oh, then it's good as is..
21:29 < nullogic> ranger92: channel and nickname protection related stuff
21:29 < VN> I was hoping not davek..
21:30 < anthonyg> Normally nickserv enforces policies, yeah. But perhaps only let people register their SDF login names, and use that as the auth?
21:30 < oniRyan> smj -- indeed, nobody is asking for sdf prevals to be able to access arbitrary IRC servers
21:30 < VN> perhaps creating a separate password apart from sdf during the creation of a new account?
21:30 < nullogic> davek: ircservices works fine for that kinda ting (seprate pass)
21:30 < redleg> sure, registered nicks get certain privileges baseddonsdf membership level
21:30 < redleg> the pass can be different
21:30 < nullogic> nickserv can do all of that
21:31 < redleg> once the nickserv validates sdf user cred
21:31 < nullogic> so ya sounds like ya'll want ircservices setup...
21:31 < redleg> ya ;P
21:31 < ranger92> OK by me ...
21:31 < oniRyan> nullogic: yep.
21:31  * ecelis votes for ircservices
21:31 < anthonyg> I like it. And it seems like a good way to make sure the policies are enforced.
21:32  * redleg concurs
21:32 < oniRyan> *nods*
21:32 < nullogic> ya cool, agreed then?
21:32 -!- marla [marla@sdf-8C2616F0.lonestar.org] has joined #future
21:32 < ecelis> yes
21:32 < redleg> yes
21:33 < anthonyg> I agree.
21:33 < ecelis> redleg's idea of having certain privileges based on sdf membership with nickserv registered nick seems very good
21:33 < smj> sounds good, it should be as open as possible.
21:33  * avo +
21:34 < smj> an outsider should be able to connect an ask questions - that is the bottom line.
21:34 < redleg> open is fine
21:34 < anthonyg> I think that's a fairly open way of doing it while still being able to boot asshats if needed. ;)
21:34 < nullogic> nickserv usage should be voluntary imho
21:34 < redleg> just the ability to create new channels
21:34 < redleg> kck disruptive members
21:34 < oniRyan> nullogic: agreed
21:34 < davek> Yeah, that sounds good
21:34 < nullogic> yes.. redleg
21:34 < smj> nullogic, can you handle users who should really be in #adult or #mature?
21:34 < davek> Did we decide anything about ops?  Make every meta an op?
21:34 < oniRyan> nickserv / chanserv are just the easiest way to set up channels and give people the ability to moderate
21:35 < nullogic> smj: yes
21:35 < smj> nullogic: thank you.
21:35 < redleg> basic auth grant chanops for some predetermined group, whether MetaArpa or others
21:35 < VN> hopefully only a select few davek
21:35 < nullogic> no problem
21:35  * xexyz flails
21:35 < VN> I would hate to see a whole bunch of ops running around..
21:35 < smj> redleg is going to be joining in
21:35 < nullogic> i can also help set up ircservices
21:35 < davek> Well, not too select, vn.  I think that there weren't enough ops (or at least active ops) before
21:35 < smj> is blingcr here?
21:36 < redleg> going to be joining in?
21:36 < anthonyg> I would also say MetaARPA, but that might not be enough ops.
21:36 < VN> redleg wants to be an op?
21:36 < smj> yes, you're going to be an OPER.
21:36 < smj> redleg.
21:36 < smj> unless you do not want to.
21:36 < anthonyg> Either that, or have the ops be voluntary.
21:36 < redleg> if you meant that as a vote of confidence in me smj, then yes, thank you
21:36 < redleg> I accept
21:36 < oniRyan> I also volunteer for configuration / technical implemtation for the IRC setup. "oper" isn't neccessary for my helping to configure things.
21:36 < smj> I 
21:37 < smj> oniRyan you can be a consultant.
21:37 < smj> we appreciate your input.
21:37 -!- marla_ [marla@sdf-8C2616F0.lonestar.org] has quit [Quit: Hey!  Where'd my controlling terminal go?]
21:37 < smj> and honestly, you're the reason why this meeting was called :)
21:37 < redleg> (where the near fate of irc hung in the balance;)
21:37 < oniRyan> here's a summary of what has been covered (as I understand) so far:
21:38 < oniRyan> irc services desired
21:38 < redleg> lol
21:38 < redleg> can we make a consuoltation channel?
21:38  * redleg needs a new keybaord... ;P
21:38 < oniRyan> a few ops will work to manage irc services, and moderation for the default channel (for new users... #helpdesk or otherwise) will be needed
21:39 < smj> I believe that #helpdesk should be the default and not #sdf.
21:39 < oniRyan> in addition to irc services, and the helpdesk, channels outside the scope of "ALL AGES" will exist, with a relaxed policy on "adult behavior" and such.
21:39 < smj> I think that #helpdesk reinforces its purpose.
21:39 < nullogic> agreed, smj
21:39 < redleg> agreed on default #helpdesk
21:39 < VN> #helpdesk = limbo, #sdf = lobby
21:40 < redleg> agreed VN
21:40 < nullogic> heh
21:40 < redleg> and if #sdf degrades
21:40 < anthonyg> Yeah, I think it's good too.
21:40 < oniRyan> VN: sounds good... and those two places should both be "all ages" ... yes?
21:40 < davek> If #helpdesk is the default people might use it more for general chatting than helping, though
21:40  * ecelis agrees with VN, #hlpdesk = limbo, #sdf =lobby
21:40 < redleg> push them to other channels, such as mature or adult or whatever
21:40 < VN> zap'em
21:40 < redleg> ;P
21:40 < avo> channel topics should state use policy; enforced
21:40 < nullogic> yup
21:40 < VN> yank'em
21:41 < emb> Sorry, one other idea...
21:41 < oniRyan> yes emb?
21:41 < nullogic> too young, etc == kick
21:41 < emb> Maybe #welcome = limbo ?
21:41 < oniRyan> maybe
21:41 < redleg> welcome the front door
21:41  * oniRyan looks at emb... then at smj... back at emb... *headtilts*
21:41 < VN> #welcome vs. #helpdesk?
21:41 < emb> I mean, do you want helpdesk to actually be a helpdesk?
21:41 < nullogic> KISS
21:41 < redleg> sdf is the living room
21:41 < smj> davek, I've had this problem with 'com' and the #lobby :)  My hopes is that to make it as specific as possible is that it would discourage its use as a general chat room.
21:42 < redleg> lol, I vote for #sdf
21:42 < oniRyan> #helpdesk is fine.
21:42 < VN> or stick a bot in limbo that lists all the details in getting themselves validated and onwards?
21:42 < emb> Sorry, not trying to be a pain in the ass. :) Just some thoughts. 
21:42 < smj> if the default room is #sdf then the policy may seem more difficult to reinforce.
21:43 < nullogic> heh, sorry emb
21:43 < redleg> sorry, not to be confusing as well- I totally agree that #helpdesk is a must and needs to be the default autojoin
21:43 < oniRyan> redleg: thanks
21:43 < redleg> just that the other standard room is #ssdf and not #welcome
21:43 < nullogic> ya, its hard....
21:43 < davek> Are any of the current #sdf regulars here?
21:43 < redleg> ok, done now..
21:44 < redleg> yes
21:44 < redleg> me
21:44 < ranger92> Yes
21:44 < redleg> null
21:44 < redleg> oniryan
21:44 < redleg> ranger on/off
21:44 < davek> OK
21:44 < davek> Just curious
21:44 < redleg> robthew00t just left
21:44 < avo> are there even users here who  can't handle multiple channels concurrently?
21:44 < avo> presuming not ....
21:44 < oniRyan> multiple concurrent channels is the whole idea behind IRC
21:44 < avo> I suggest that the default channel be for Welcoming new users
21:45 < oniRyan> think I'm on like 30 right now
21:45 < oniRyan> ignoring them except this one (priority)
21:45 < redleg> I think the uses are pretty low key avo, so multichannel should be too much a burden on mods
21:45 < avo> and other channels be used for idle chat and for assistance/help
21:45 < VN> and how should we handle abusive users?
21:45 < VN> kick'em? ban'em? etc?
21:45 < nullogic> first a warning
21:45 < redleg> kick them
21:46 < oniRyan> 2 warnings... then driectly put 'em in the hole... bread and water only for a week
21:46 < nullogic> then as the aup says, kickban
21:46 < redleg> iirc nickserv can be used to explain it to them as well ;)
21:46 < smj> the AUP states that warning is not required, just so you OPERs know.
21:46 < davek> vn raises a good point.  There should be a clear policy for that
21:46 < anthonyg> VN: Perhaps make the kicking/banning dependent on amount of violations?
21:46 < avo> point to policy in topic, and direct them to another channel
21:46 < smj> avo, I agree.
21:46 < smj> first allow them to change rooms
21:46 < smj> or channels
21:46 < redleg> exactly avo
21:46 < VN> or, force them into #helpdesk only
21:46 < oniRyan> smj: agreed
21:46 < VN> I don't... :)
21:46 < redleg> keep it simple
21:46 < smj> if they persist, then the AUP is enforced.
21:46 < redleg> if they continue/refuse
21:47 < redleg> show them the door with kick/ban
21:47 < smj> nullogic does his job. :)
21:47 < oniRyan> VN: the other way around ... not allowed in helpdesk if being a menace
21:47 < avo> if #helpdesk is for help, don't put the trouble makers there
21:47 < redleg> lol
21:47 < redleg> yeah
21:47 < davek> Yeah, that seemss backwards
21:47  * ecelis agrees with avo, must be policy about kicking and baninng people
21:47 < VN> or #dunce
21:47 < smj> another tool I can offer to IRC opers is access to ipf.
21:47 < VN> :P
21:47 < redleg> chanop discretion
21:47 < anthonyg> Yeah. If they can't behave, they need to be kicked or banned.
21:47 < smj> when you ban a user, they can have their packets dropped as well.
21:47 < redleg> disputes to smj
21:47 < redleg> ;)
21:48 < emb> Ha ha, I like #dunce
21:48 < VN> what about degree of banning? Some people are persistent and will login from multiple sources..
21:48 < oniRyan> smj: there's a feature in the IRCD for that... to prevent them from even connecting, and another feature that boots them as soon as they connect, etc.
21:48 < VN> ipf is too powerful, smj
21:48 < smj> 1 day ban is what the AUP says, but you guys should determine what is reasonable.
21:48 < VN> I would think that it would have to be restricted to irc services only
21:48 -!- cfe [~ecelis@3E9E18DF.567E9A35.C648A00.IP] has joined #future
21:48 < nullogic> heh bans work better, they need a break to think about their actions
21:49 -!- cfe [~ecelis@3E9E18DF.567E9A35.C648A00.IP] has left #future []
21:49 < redleg> agree with nullogic
21:49 < oniRyan> nullogic: 4 hours minimum... to allow enough of a break to cool off (20 minutes, they come back angry for being kicked)
21:49 < oniRyan> though ... that's just my experience with the matter
21:49 < avo> for persistent troublemakers, channel mode can be set to allow posting only from voiced users, I think.
21:49 < redleg> true avo
21:49 < VN> ahh right. +/-v
21:49 < redleg> and it would go back to nickserv
21:50 < nullogic> y
21:50 < redleg> wouldn't matter what IP they tried to come back on
21:50 < anthonyg> Voice is good too. Allow users voice by default, but it can be taken away.
21:50 < redleg> registered nicks get certain priviledges
21:50 < redleg> agreed on +/_v
21:50 < avo> redleg: are good services available for this ircd?
21:50 < redleg> I won't lie avo
21:51 < redleg> I do not know
21:51 < nullogic> yes helpdesk and sdf should be +moderated  possibly?
21:51 < VN> yes
21:51 < avo> we've agreed to find out though, eh?
21:51 < redleg> yes
21:51 < davek> Wouldn't that make it tough for new users to ask questions?
21:51 < oniRyan> avo: anope is the defacto standard for services in my opinion... and is known to work well with unrealircd -- I was staff on a network that used this combo (we had 9 servers linked, with a complex topology involving 3 hubs / routing)
21:51 < davek> Which is the hole point
21:51 < smj> true davek.
21:51 < redleg> actually nullogic knows
21:51 < avo> good  then; and 'thanks' for oper'ing
21:51 < davek> whole, even
21:51 < smj> unless they're manned religiously
21:51 < redleg> like inside out, eh, null?
21:52 < avo> thanks, oniRyan; that sounds fine :)
21:52 < nullogic> no, chan serv  will give them +v automagicly
21:52 < oniRyan> nullogic: yep, if someone is added to the vop list (anope, services) for a channel, auto-voice :)
21:53  * nullogic is using an on screen keyboard
21:53 < VN> probably need a backend to let nickserv sort out the massive amounts of users on sdf..
21:53 < emb> In addition to the trying to get users to the server, are we going to rekindle the special interest groups, give them added reason to stick?
21:53 < nullogic> you can set it for +v for all new user unless otherwise blacklisted
21:53 < oniRyan> VN -- oh? wait... so you're saying that 100% of the users on SDF are going to be added to the database, regardless of if they choose to use IRC????
21:54 < nullogic> no
21:54 < redleg> no
21:54 < VN> no
21:54 < nullogic> its auto
21:54 < redleg> registering nicks should be voluntary action
21:54 < nullogic> ^.^
21:54 < oniRyan> redleg: aye
21:54 < oniRyan> VN: what's this filter for? *confused*
21:54 < redleg> autojoin with unregistered nick priviledges is differnet
21:54 < oniRyan> VN: err... backend even
21:55 < avo> yes, voluntary; but what about technical aspect of identifying SDF membership and level?
21:55 < VN> that too avo..
21:55 < oniRyan> VN: anope has a backend already... I can help with scripting if you want a backend that is usable from the shell prompt
21:55 < VN> I would assume to be complicated..
21:55 < redleg> ahh, yes, the details of registered nick
21:55 < redleg> and SDF membership level privilege
21:56 < redleg> validation for registered nicks can be based on email
21:56 < avo> I forsee connect to irc from my sdf account/server and thereby have access to create an account on services
21:56 < redleg> and SDF acount mail used to grant certain privileges
21:56 < oniRyan> avo: I'm thinking that for granting specific access (certain channels, ops, etc) that a script can simple be used if a user is known to be registered with nickserv, desires the access, and already has the apropriate membership level on SDF
21:56 < avo> i.e. only SDF members (at level+) can create nickserv account
21:56 < VN> oniryan: I think I mentioned it somewhere.. letting users use 'maint' to manage irc creds..
21:56 < oniRyan> *a script can simply be used
21:56 < VN> kinda' like how you can change your jabber password on 'maint'
21:57 < redleg> avo, I agree
21:57 < smj> That can be done vn.  It will be done for bitlbee too.
21:57 < oniRyan> VN: sure... if you want a backend / extension for maint, that can be done.
21:57  * ecelis thinks using 'maint' would be the best
21:57 < redleg> that also keeps nicks with those SDF account holders, if they so choose to use them
21:57  * oniRyan ponders
21:57 < oniRyan> hmm... looks like there's gonna be more coding of API wrappers... whee!!!
21:57  * oniRyan frowns
21:57 < nullogic> not really
21:58 < oniRyan> can I just point someone at the apropriate section of documentation? I hate writing scripts
21:58 < oniRyan> nullogic: hmm?
21:58 < VN> but I'm not sure if our usernames will be tied to irc names..
21:58 < redleg> VN
21:58 < redleg> sure, but
21:58 < smj> for the IRC server I see no other choice vn.
21:58 < oniRyan> VN: anope allows what is called a "nick group" -- multiple nicknames treated as the same person.
21:58 < redleg> if you wanted it you could have it as a existing SDF member
21:59 < oniRyan> smj: wait, what? no other choice except for what?
21:59 < redleg> I would not want someone on irc registering redleg after seeing the account on SDF
21:59 < smj> otherwise the IRC server is open to ventriloquism
21:59 < ranger92> Is the sdf IRC server listed anywhere ? Or do people find it by word of mouth; Google etc. ? I haven't searched for it lately.
21:59 < redleg> exactly
21:59 < smj> the SDF irc server is only listed on the SDF homepage.
21:59 < ecelis> I agree, sdf user accounts must not be available as nicks to register on irc server
21:59 < anthonyg> Yeah, I think that the SDF usernames should be locked to the user account.
21:59 < VN> I'm just throwing in ideas oniryan. Don't presume that I know already what 'anope' is. :)
21:59 < smj> however, people who *guess* may find it as irc.sdf.org or irc.freeshell.org
21:59 < oniRyan> VN: so... auto q:line (ban nick) for all SDF handles, until the SDFer that uses the nick officially claims the nick to be theirs?
22:00 < redleg> *ecelis, except to those who own the SDF account
22:00 < oniRyan> smj: otherwise, any random person could log into IRC claiming to be you, or an admin or whatever.
22:00 < ecelis> redleg: yes, of course
22:00 < redleg> (just sayin;P
22:01 < nullogic> lets not get too hung up on technical parts of this.
22:01 < redleg> agreed
22:01 < VN> which apparently oniryan is all too eager to pitch in..
22:01 < oniRyan> indeed...
22:01 < oniRyan> not really
22:01 < avo> tech seems solveable ... what's the next non-tech topic?
22:01 < anthonyg> nullogic: Yeah. We're supposed to be talking about the AUP, right?
22:01 < oniRyan> all of these requsted features are doable :(
22:01 -!- marla_ [marla@sdf-8C2616F0.lonestar.org] has joined #future
22:01 < oniRyan> but... I don't want to be the one to implement them all *cry*
22:01 < redleg> the AUP can be a living document for some time, flesh it out, keep it dynamic
22:02 < oniRyan> redleg: aye
22:02 < VN> as is, I think the current aup is acceptable. As smj stated, it's open to meta's to checkin/out
22:02 < oniRyan> minimalist / keep it simple
22:02 < redleg> make changes as time and community change
22:02 < oniRyan> redleg: woo! yes yes =^_^=
22:02 < smj> yes the AUP even states that policy may change based on what situation the OPs are faced with
22:02 < redleg> yes, VN, concur
22:02 < avo> have we agreed to three base channels: welcoming, helping, and chatting ?
22:02 < VN> in other words, don't abuse. Or it'll definitely get changed. :P
22:02 < oniRyan> avo: are the welcome / help channels one and the same?
22:03 < oniRyan> and ... is the "chatting" channel all ages?
22:03 < VN> maybe force ops to be permanent residents in #helpdesk?
22:03 < anthonyg> I was just going to ask that. Do we really need a welcoming channel, if we have a help and a chat channel?
22:03 < avo> they could be, but new chatters would have to be pointed to the chat chan
22:03 < redleg> good idea avo, a quick vote in order to flesh out the htree(?) default channels and their bassic intent/purpose with topic branded and motd spelling it out
22:03 < nullogic> VN: not force, but something like that.hah
22:03 < avo> two chans is fine; but new users will with 50% probability need to be moved
22:04 < smj> I believe that all channels on irc.sdf.org should be assumed All Ages by default.  However, I have no issue with there being a specific channel for "adult" conversations
22:04 < oniRyan> well... if an op is "on duty" they should hang out in the helpdesk channel. that's generally how I've seen things run on other networks
22:04 < VN> null: which brings me to the issue with "limbo".. noone helping out noobies
22:04 < oniRyan> but if they're idle, or otherwise not in op-mode, dismissing themselves is common
22:05 < oniRyan> VN: actually, a few new people were helped today... a new person came into IRC, and then went for arpa today even
22:05 < avo> any votes for '2' or '3' base chans, with '3' being a dedicated "welcome" chan ?
22:05 < redleg> VN, it is rare that folks don't get answers in #sdf now
22:05 < nullogic> VN: if you do it enough, ive noticed others will too
22:05 < nullogic> ya
22:05 < VN> so it should be completely voluntary.
22:05 < redleg> yes, and nullogic leads the way on it!
22:05 < redleg> as in help
22:05 < VN> heeh
22:05 < nullogic> question are almost always answered
22:05 < avo> or alternately, no default channel at all
22:05 < redleg> voluntary, yes
22:06 -!- marla [marla@sdf-8C2616F0.lonestar.org] has quit [Quit: Hey!  Where'd my controlling terminal go?]
22:06 < smj> I should say that there should be a specific area for Adult conversation.
22:06 < oniRyan> the only reason that people don't get answers (historically) in the default channel is that it was all chat and adult stuff with no emphasis on helping people
22:06 < smj> and therefore all other areas are all ages.
22:06 < nullogic> agreeded smj
22:06 < redleg> agree smj, adult/mature channel will keep a bunch of potential problems at bay
22:06 < ranger92> agreed
22:06 < anthonyg> I agree with smj. The channels should defaut to all-ages.
22:07 < oniRyan> :)
22:07 < anthonyg> Have a specific channel for mature chat. 
22:07 < redleg> and gives ops a bit of soft muscle in they have an suggestion on wherte to take things in leiu of kickban
22:07 < avo> I think we already agreed that the policy for #help was help only; age irrelevant
22:07 < nullogic> i think we are all on the se page
22:07 < redleg> yuppers
22:08 < oniRyan> ok... so... more than just a single channel, services...
22:08 < nullogic> *same
22:08 < oniRyan> anything else that has been decided FOR CERTAIN?
22:08 < VN> but it's not like we're gonna' interrogate every new user what their age is if they're in #adult/#mature.. :P
22:08 < nullogic> ya
22:08 < oniRyan> oh, and "AUP will be a living document"
22:08 < avo> AUP general and per-channel
22:08 < smj> no vn, it will be a defensive stance, rather than offensive.
22:09 < smj> basically we point them to the AUP.. if they persist, they are told to go to adult channel... and if they continue, then /sbin/ipf is yours.
22:09 < oniRyan> haha
22:09 < redleg> lol
22:09 < oniRyan> :)
22:09  * anthonyg laughs.
22:09 < VN> ok. :P
22:10 < redleg> ok, basic layout:
22:10 < avo> we agreed that MetaARPA are chanops ?
22:10 < nullogic> hmmm 1hr, eh? wrap it up?
22:10 < VN> by default?
22:10 < redleg> 1. #helpdesk is default autojoin
22:11 < redleg> 2. #sdf is lobby available channel
22:11 < anthonyg> avo: Either that, or have people volunteer for it. ARPA or above for that, I would think.
22:11 < avo> op escallation: kick from channel; ban  from server; moderate the channel[s]
22:11 < redleg> 3. #mature/adult is self explanatory
22:11 -!- acidapex [~acidapex@sdf-2E154743.net] has joined #future
22:11 < acidapex> good evening sirs
22:11 < avo> +
22:11 < smj> that is great redleg.
22:11 < acidapex> oh wow smj on irc?
22:11 < nullogic> VN: we can figure thoes details out later...
22:11 < redleg> folks, acidapex is another irc regualr 
22:12 < redleg> lol
22:12 < acidapex> what is thy bidding my master
22:12 < oniRyan> acidapex: make me a sandwich
22:12 < VN> sure null.
22:12 < acidapex> as you wish
22:12 < oniRyan> yay!
22:12 < oniRyan> <3
22:12 < redleg> need motd set to explan those 3 basic choices, a little about nick registering and topic to be maintained as fit
22:12 < nullogic> heh, so many ideas =p
22:12  * acidapex calls your mom and sister
22:12  * oniRyan sets down lightsaber and daydreams about sandwich
22:12 -!- ajgraves [~ajgraves@sdf-CF922DFD.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:13  * ecelis has lost
22:13 < avo> We don't have enough Metas on irc to handle the op'ing ?
22:13 < acidapex> irc has historically been stable and a place for us to goof off
22:13 < oniRyan> redleg: #helpdesk can explain how to do nick registering
22:13 < avo> let's start with MetaARPA and lower if necessary
22:13 < oniRyan> and ... channel topics can evolve
22:13 < redleg> true oniryan
22:13 < redleg> as can a bot like KuSHy
22:13 < VN> agreed avo.
22:14 < redleg>   ?nickreg
22:14 < avo> How about who can create channels ?
22:14 < acidapex> most serious dev topics and discussions relevant to unix have been held in com
22:14 < redleg> :)
22:14 < nullogic> ya redleg 
22:14  * ecelis agrees with avo
22:14 < acidapex> nullogic has proven a great op and has never abused their privs
22:14 < anthonyg> avo: Ops to create channels, I would think?
22:14 < VN> that was what I was thinking anthonyg
22:14 < emb> Perhaps meta are ops by default, but an arpa who shows themself to be dedicated to IRC can get op, too?
22:14 < avo> sounds good, and easy :)
22:15 < oniRyan> acidapex: agreed
22:15 < acidapex> outside of us trolling botwhores and scrubs i feel that it is a worthwhile part of our system
22:15  * oniRyan cheers for nullogic!!!
22:15 < nullogic> aaww shucks acidapex... i don't have any money
22:15 < redleg> I think a good 'manual' for opers is in order for basic desires and intents
22:15 < redleg> float it around and get seal of approval from group vote at a near date
22:15 < smj> I agree MetaARPA would seem most interested in supporting an SDF service.
22:15 < oniRyan> redleg: yes... there will be more planning for that aspect of things. oper-specific policy
22:15 < avo> known users not Meta are 'ok' by me; just not policy; I like for folks to want to be Meta :)
22:15 < smj> redleg, nullogic, vn .. they're MetaARPA.
22:15 < acidapex> i agree that metaarpa should be in charge of this service
22:16 < oniRyan> *sigh*
22:16 < VN> ..appointed by smj :)
22:16 < oniRyan> I can't afford metaarpa money though
22:16 < redleg> avo, and there is halfop as well, for less privilege
22:16 < nullogic> aye
22:16 < anthonyg> MetaARPA by policy, other known good ops by exception. Sounds good to me. :)
22:16 < oniRyan> can barely afford HALF the medical expenses I have
22:16 < avo> redleg, yes; thanks
22:16 < VN> sounds good. meta by default.
22:16  * oniRyan sighs
22:16  * avo agrees with anthonyg
22:16 < acidapex> i've been in a pinch financially as of late, otherwise i would also already be meta
22:17 < oniRyan> ah well... time to go damage my health
22:17 < oniRyan> brb, smoking a tobacco
22:17  * ecelis MetaARPA by policy others by exception, it's + for me
22:17 < smj> oniRyan, you can support the OPs in spirit.
22:17 < redleg> ;P
22:17 < oniRyan> smj: well DUH
22:17  * oniRyan cheers for 'em
22:17 < smj> exactly.
22:17 < acidapex> i can say that our ops have been wonderful teachers in all of our unix related projects
22:17 < oniRyan> and technical stuff too
22:17 < acidapex> especially nullogic
22:17 < redleg> ecelis nailed it :)
22:18 < acidapex> i have often been opped in irc and have never abused it
22:18 < redleg> (acidapex, in case you didn't know this is a voice protected channel and you are -v, so no one can hear you;)
22:18 < oniRyan> redleg: lies
22:18 < redleg> I know this is true- I am root
22:18 < oniRyan> oh, my mistake
22:18  * oniRyan yeilds
22:19  * VN pets redleg
22:19 < redleg> and we dissemble
22:19 < avo> so, we're done here ?
22:19 < redleg> yah, dunn...
22:19 < acidapex> love you guys
22:19 < avo> (for this meeting anway)
22:19 < redleg> <3
22:19 < redleg> I thknk we are avo
22:19 < redleg> done, that is
22:20 < nullogic> cool beans everyone
22:20 < avo> thanks, all!
22:20 < redleg> yeah,cool beans
22:20 < anthonyg> Great. Thanks everyone.
22:20 -!- avo [avoyager@sdf-7876BD5B.freeshell.org] has quit [Quit: leaving]
22:20 -!- VN [vn@sdf-7876BD5B.freeshell.org] has left #future []
22:21 < anthonyg> So, who (if anyone) is working on the ops manual?
22:21 < marla_> thats how it all works
22:22 < marla_> im impressed
22:22 < redleg> good question anthonyg..
22:22 < redleg> ;P
22:22 < redleg> (it wasn't *my* idea!;)
22:22 < oniRyan> anthony -- not sure... if it's like ... mediawiki I'd be more likely to contribute
22:22 < anthonyg> Nor mine. But I might be willing to help. ;)
22:23 < redleg> yay,I joke. I think I opened mouth and insert foot sometime back
22:23 < anthonyg> We could probably start by seeing if there are other ops manuals out there and go from there.
22:23 < anthonyg> We might be able to modify something for our use.
22:23 < redleg> I think it should be a wiki type, with SDF membership MetaArpa cred required to modify
22:23 < ranger92> clear
22:23 < anthonyg> Or at least use it as a guide for our own creation. And yeah, the wiki is a good idea.
22:24 < redleg> yes, a base line doc would come in real handy
22:24 < emb> Why not use the same method we use for tutorials?
22:24 < anthonyg> It might have a lot of content.
22:24 < emb> I just tried it last night, very easy.
22:25 < redleg> I think it needs to be lean and mean- too much content will be too bitg a burden
22:25 < redleg> *big
22:25 < smj> I agree, text file in /sys/html/tutorials
22:25 < redleg> cool
22:25 < emb> Wiki software (mediawiki at least) is not lean and mean.
22:25 < emb> :)
22:26 < redleg> yeah, sorry for that emb
22:26 < ecelis> yes, why to use a wiki, when we already have a way to write such content
22:26 < redleg> I was more looking at tracking edits and auth required for editting
22:26 < emb> I'd be bappy to contribute my html-ifying services.
22:27 < emb> smj, could there be an irc folder in thst tutorisls directory?
22:27 < smj> co -l  .. ci -u  .. its really all you have to know :)
22:27 < smj> yes emb, you can create one :)
22:27 < emb> If the ops guide is pretty big, we can break it up into multiple pages.
22:27 < ecelis>  actually, tutorials are well tracked abput edits and the like, they are in rcs
22:27 < smj> thank you guys for joining this chat an participating
22:27 < smj> *and*
22:28 < anthonyg> Thank you for having it. :)
22:28 < redleg> yes smj
22:28 < ecelis> ok, bye
22:29 < redleg> thanks for giving us a say
22:29 < emb> thanks, smj!
22:29 < smj> thanks for managing IRC.
22:29 < oniRyan> mmm that was a nice tobacco
22:29 < smj> I know its a chore.
22:29 < nullogic> smj: really quick... i've noticed im in ircd group again...
22:29 < redleg> I had made some bad assumptions on the demise of irc
22:29 < redleg> I see I was way offbase :)
22:29 < nullogic> ya, an AUP makes everything really easy
22:29 < oniRyan> redleg: *winks*
22:29 < smj> yeh nullogic, if you aren't part of that group, then you can help.
22:29 < oniRyan> yeah, I didn't want to screw things up :)
22:30 < anthonyg> Ooh. ircd group?
22:30 < oniRyan> smj: "that group" ... well... whatever. mostly I suspect that nullogic was just avoiding the kind of heat that I got this weekend.
22:30 < nullogic> so i can add myself to the conf file?
22:31 < nullogic> huh, i also was out doing a lot of biking >.>
22:31 < smj> well, OPERs will get heat..  there is no avoiding that.  You will always have people against you.
22:31 < smj> Your job is to do the right thing.
22:31 < anthonyg> smj: Indeed.
22:32 < smj> if there are more OPERs needed, then that is what we need.
22:32 < oniRyan> smj... about doing the right thing... *sigh* I wrote something up about that.
22:32 < oniRyan> My personal "moderator's creed" is this -- I am committed to "NOT backing down when moderating" and as a result, being a "hated person" as for instance "the man trying to keep everyone down" ... NOT WILLING to be "trigger happy, confrontational, unreasonable, or turn a deaf ear to people's concerns" -- will ONLY "enforce policy that is democratically decided among the whole of the administration"
22:32 < redleg> lol
22:32  * redleg nevar saw that coming...
22:32 < oniRyan> I hate moderating though
22:32 < oniRyan> so please don't ask me to do it.
22:32 < smj> yep, the bottom line is you'll be hated.
22:33  * oniRyan nods
22:33 < smj> but, while you're hated by one or a few, you'll be appreciated by many more.
22:33 < anthonyg> I'll moderate if you like. I'm used to it. ;)
22:33 < oniRyan> anthony: I'm used to it too.
22:33 < smj> anthonyg, are you volunteering to be an OPER?
22:33 < anthonyg> And yes. That's exactly what I find...the few that hate you are far outweighed by the many who like you.
22:33 < oniRyan> but... sometimes there's drama with the other moderators. that's the part I hate more than actually moderating
22:34 < redleg> but you are already hired as our consultant oniRyan, so we are good there..
22:34 < oniRyan> I dunno... I could handle being an oper, but would only use it to moderate as a last resort.
22:34 < smj> okay anthonyg, you're in the uircd group
22:34  * oniRyan sighs
22:34 < oniRyan> sign me up too then.
22:35 < redleg> lol!
22:35 < smj> so that makes blingcr, ranger92, vn, nullogic, redleg and anthonyg
22:35 < smj> 24/hours is covered.
22:35 < smj> 24/7/365.
22:35 < redleg> nice line up smj, thaks for the vote
22:35 < redleg> yes
22:35 < redleg> *thanks even
22:35 < oniRyan> smj -- I might need in the ircd group to help with the conf anyway.
22:36 < redleg> gotta step away for now, will be idle
22:36 < oniRyan> if only just for that... yeah, I'm game.
22:36 < smj> oniRyan, you are welcome to give suggestions.  I appreciate that.
22:36  * oniRyan shudders with dread.
22:36 < smj> any of the current ops can edit the ircd.motd file and add the link to the aup.
22:37 < oniRyan> oh ok, good.
22:37 < oniRyan> I was more thinking along the lines of setting up anope though.
22:37 < anthonyg> Cool.
22:37 < oniRyan> that one is a real nightmare.
22:37 < oniRyan> configuring it sufficiently wrong, stupid things happen sometimes.
22:38 < oniRyan> either way.
22:38 < oniRyan> I just want a glass of unobtanium right now (sadly, I have no wine)
22:38 < oniRyan> can't get wine at this hour unless I go to a bar :(
22:40  * oniRyan vanishes in a puff of logic
22:40 -!- oniRyan [kuzetsa@sdf-6194F863.dhcp.insightbb.com] has left #future []
22:41 < anthonyg> Does the uircd groups show up under 'groups'?
22:41 < nullogic> anthonyg: you might have to relogin
22:41 < nullogic> s/might/will/
22:41 < anthonyg> Ah.
22:41 < anthonyg> Makes sense.
22:42 < ranger92> relogin and type id
22:42 < anthonyg> I'll try it later. Don't want to lose my connection right now. ;)
22:42 < nullogic> anthonyg: if anyting is changed in unrealircd.conf, you can ask ranger92 or vn to run /rehash so the sever does not have to berestarted
22:42 < anthonyg> Okay.
22:42 < nullogic> ... other then adding your own oline, there really isnt anything yhou should do
22:43 < anthonyg> Yeah, I wasn't going to mess with anything yet.
22:44 < smj> the uircd config and documents should be in RCS.
22:59 -!- emb [emb@sdf-8C2616F0.lonestar.org] has quit [Quit: Hey!  Where'd my controlling terminal go?]
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23:09 < nullogic> i've added this to the motd, if anyone wants to change it, go for it
23:09 < nullogic> By using this service you agree to the AUP.
23:09 < nullogic> The AUP can be found here: http://sdf.org/tutorials/irc-policy.html
23:09 < anthonyg> I think it's fine.
23:10 < nullogic> heh, no one has ops is online.. so the only way to make it take effect is to restart the server...
23:10 < smj> the irc server will restart
23:10 < nullogic> cool beans
23:10 < anthonyg> Cool
--- Log closed Mon May 03 23:12:00 2010
--- Log opened Mon May 03 23:12:24 2010
23:12 -!- nullogic [nullogic@sdf-7876BD5B.freeshell.org] has joined #future
23:12 -!- Irssi: #future: Total of 2 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 1 normal]
23:12 -!- Irssi: Join to #future was synced in 32 secs
23:13 -!- smj [~smj@sdf-1D0780C1.freeshell.org] has joined #future
23:13 -!- anthonyg [~anthonyg@sdf-9E2631AF.dhcp.lnbh.ca.charter.com] has joined #future
23:13  * anthonyg waves
23:13 < smj> you can use 'restartuircd'
23:14 < smj> be sure to add that to the OPER manual
23:14  * nullogic nods
23:14 < anthonyg> Alrighty.
23:14 < smj> the server may be restarted at anytime an OPER deems necessary.
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23:18 < anthonyg> I guess it won't give me OPER unless I log in from the server directly.
23:18 < smj> yes, you need to login from sverige.sdf.org
23:18 < smj> or rather, connect.
23:18  * anthonyg nods. Will be right back
23:18 -!- anthonyg [~anthonyg@sdf-9E2631AF.dhcp.lnbh.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: anthonyg]
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23:21 < nullogic> anthonyg: you'll need an oline before you can do that
23:21 < anthonyg> Ah, right.
23:27 <@redleg> ooo
23:27 <@redleg> opers...
23:27  * redleg considers booting smj
23:27 <@redleg> ;p
23:27 <@redleg> ok
23:28 <@redleg> sverige.sdf required for auto op authentication?
23:28 < nullogic> we still use a password
23:29 <@redleg> huh?
23:29 <@redleg> I mean for auto promote to op, for now we must connect thru sverige?
23:30 <@redleg> (as I  read the scroll back)
23:30 < nullogic> ooo, i dont know about that... i'd asume you wouldnt have to if nickserv was set up
23:30 < nullogic> but for now, lets just say yes
23:30 < nullogic> about meta getting chan ops?
23:30 <@redleg> yeah, if we go the route of nickserv
23:31 <@redleg> about the 5 named folks getting irc ops for irc.freeshell.org
23:31 <@redleg> meta/chanops and nick/chanserv, etc all come later, I imagined
23:31 < nullogic> aye
23:31 <@redleg> but for now sort of deal
23:31 <@redleg> ok
23:33 < nullogic> for now meta arpas can just ask to be +o'd hehehehe
23:33 <@redleg> you gonna put kushy back into play for that as well?
23:35 < nullogic> ya, might as well
23:35 < smj> is kushy an SDF member
23:35 <@redleg> ok, had another idea
23:35 <@redleg> lol
23:36 < nullogic> oh really? oh, i'll change that bots nickname then hehe
23:36 < nullogic> its a bot in ksh i put up to answer questions really fast for new users
23:36 < nullogic> (simple things, like how do i join?, do i get psybnc?)
23:36 < nullogic> why is irc not free?
23:36 < nullogic> where are the bots? etc etc
23:36 < smj> It probably should be managed through the bboard.
23:37 < nullogic> right now its just a simple ksh script that replies to triggers
23:37 <@redleg> how about ?uinfo ?finger, as some new member metioned feeling uncomfortable in the past and a very vaid issue with credentials here tonight
23:37 < nullogic> i've take thoes out
23:37 < nullogic> i was only playing
23:37 <@redleg> null, can you lock that command down to only permitted to run script from say #opers channel
23:37 <@redleg> and then lock #opers down to the fab 5?
23:38 < nullogic> ya, i have it so it does host/user based auth already
23:38 <@redleg> they are a great troubleshooting tool
23:38 < nullogic> anyone can have ops over the bot
23:38 <@redleg> I think they should stay
23:38 <@redleg> but lock it to not used on the general pop channels
23:38 < nullogic> well i mean any ops hehehe
23:38 <@redleg> ok- wait
23:38 <@redleg> lol
23:38 < nullogic> well ya, but i mean you could just run finger and uinfo from the shell
23:39 <@redleg> true
23:39 < nullogic> and its a public access unix server
23:39 <@redleg> true
23:39 < nullogic> so i mean, its not like sekret data
23:39 < nullogic> if they are a member, they can haz your finger
23:39 <@redleg> yah
23:39 <@redleg> ok
23:39 <@redleg> I think the command should stay in
23:40 <@redleg> but the oper man says to use only in #oper channel
23:40 <@redleg> to keep from freaking any new fellers out
23:41 <@redleg> but, meh, it's just "yet another (good or not) idea"
23:41 < nullogic> ya thats fine ;)
23:42 <@redleg> simple is sweetest though..
23:43 <@redleg> you pointed me to irc manuals months back to get a grip on some commands I was not knowing
23:43 <@redleg> and readding the tutorials in chanserv and nickserv can be crazy
23:44 <@redleg> if things can be done without some of that, all the better methinks
23:44 < nullogic> ya, KISS
23:44 <@redleg> ;)
23:44 < nullogic> i see a very limited roll of services... to keep things open
23:44 <@redleg> yeah, it's an army acronym too
--- Day changed Tue May 04 2010
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00:12 -!- mode/#future [+ooo anthonyg nullogic smj] by redleg
00:12 -!- redleg [root@sdf-8C2616F0.lonestar.org] has left #future [oh sheet- it's the FEDS! gulp- HURRY EAT THIS!!....   http://en.flossmanuals.net/CircumventionTools]
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--- Log closed Tue May 04 00:50:16 2010
--- Log opened Wed May 05 22:56:27 2010
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22:56 < nullogic> hody ya'll im going to close this mother down >.>
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--- Log closed Wed May 05 22:57:14 2010