It's not a question of right or wrong for me here. Did you ever
   have a friend who was born-again and wouldn't stop talking about
   Jesus? Well, yeah. It's like that. == You're not seeing the
   forest through all the trees. I'm agnostic. I know many people
   that are agnostic, even within religious groups. The "true
   believer" is far less common than one might think. But... when
   the new atheist tone-and-style came about, it reminded (and
   reminds me) too much of several encounters with what used to be
   referred to as "Jesus freaks". It's the unrelenting zeal. I'm
   trying to be helpful to you guys here. Something weird happens
   when people agree with each other excessively. Groups form. The
   groups get their own buzzwords, their own style. They get their
   own sense of humor that becomes unique to their own kind. This
   sense of humor makes sense to those within the group. But those
   on the outside, it's weird. == Truth matters to me too. Social
   justice matters to me too. I'll even say, as much as I hate to
   admit it, yes, politics matters too. All of those things are
   important. It's just... the whole true believer thing. It's a
   turn off. That's all I was trying to get across. == If you're
   debating with a True Believer Jesus freak and adopt the same
   attitude and style as the True Believer not-Jesus-freak.. that's
   fine. But I'm not any of that. But I feel pushed over into that
   side at the mere mention of anything religious, because I'm not
   a 100% True Atheist. I'm Agnostic. Some say that I have to
   choose: atheist agnostic or theist agnostic. Why? I'm agnostic.
   I don't know. People trying to convince me either way start
   looking silly after a while.. == If all you have is a hammer,
   everything starts looking like a nail. I'm not a nail. == If
   it's your thing, I'm not stopping anything here. I'm trying to
   build up, not tear down. It's not the message. It's the
   methodology. New Atheism is becoming an isolated group from the
   rest of society, even from other atheists and from agnostics.
   The days of "I'm an independent mind speaking independently and
   these are the conclusions I reached on my own accord due to
   study and reflection and I am not a part of any group" are gone
   now, when the same memes are shared, the same arguments are put
   forth. I mean, if it's your thing go ahead. But I'd want someone
   to tell me if my independent style was suddenly Hipster and that
   people might roll their eyes at me and say, "Oh look, here's
   another Hipster Clone". It might not make me change my style: I
   might happen to LIKE the Hipster look anyway. But I'd still like
   to know if people were looking at me as a Hipster clone. That's
   all I'm saying. == I'd ALMOST agree to being an NDT clone,
   except I love history and he's AWFUL at history. Man, is he
   awful at history.... and as a Science fanboy (that's his job and
   pays the $$$... he does the same thing but with Science: A+b+c+d
   and THAT'S WHY: *SCIENCE*! and people cheer. I mean, that's his
   job - the advocate/activism thing... I guess I mean, forget
   religion/science/atheism and all that: What am I an
   activist/advocate of? == I didn't invent the group name. I don't
   like stereotypes. This is why I'm pointing it out, Scott. It's
   almost like a package deal. It's got cultish qualities. I'm sure
   it's purposeful and I suppose, as points out, maybe it's a
   historical necessity as it was with the LBGT movement and the
   earlier feminist movement. I'm not throwing anybody under buses
   here. I almost hesitate to criticize at all because I know I'll
   get some very annoyed responses from a LOT of people. And
   perhaps that's it, Scott. Maybe it's become Internet Status Quo
   and I'm a contrary sort tongue emoticon It's almost like it
   can't handle the slightest criticism without offense. == Anyway,
   I have lunch to go to. I suppose I'm like the grandmother who
   says to the grandson, "I know you're into this furry thing but
   must you wear the full fursuit when we go out to lunch together?
   How about just the tail and the cat ears?" == We're people, not
   arguments. I'm not in a courtroom here. Yeah, I suppose it's the
   uppity bit. I mean, please tell me if I'm that way about
   something. I KNOW I'm uppity about some things, but I cant'
   always see it. == Absolutely. Part of communication is
   negotiating not only meaning, but sensemaking. It's a
   complicated process involving many factors. ==   Now, I'm
   obviously vehement about _something_. I'm being just as
   "freakish" as any claims I'm making about others. Now here's my
   question: What am I being vehement about? [whether or not you
   agree with it?] ==   ==